The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: daisukeman on January 14, 2009, 01:56:23 PM
-
I've always had this doubt:
1) Could you heal unique minions??
Suppose you play Lurtz and some condition that requires an exertion on that character. Then, heal it??
(Or more so, if the minion is around following the fellowship because it moved again in regroup and you get a second copy... )
2) This is just more of a thought. How come decipher makes cards such as: http://www.lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR10008.html (http://www.lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR10008.html) and http://www.lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR10106.html (http://www.lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR10106.html) when the ruling clearly states that one cannot see the opponent's discard pile. It's un-clever because it just helps cheating or making mistakes.
!
-
You can heal unique minions.
-
1) No, you can not heal a unique minion by discarding a copy of this minion from hand (if this was asked).
2) Well, i think, you have to show all cards, you need to count for cirdan etc...
-
No, you cannot heal unique minions, or it must be part of the gametext. Like some Enduring nazguls, some conditions and events. Other than that, you cannot heal by discarding another copy. I'm very sure about this, allthough I cannot back this up with parts of rulebooks and such. This is because I can't open either rulebook, as they can be found in Archives in Minas Tirith....
And about those cards, if you want to use their text, you must show as much cards as you want to use. For instance, if you want to make a minion less strong with Cirdan, you need to show as much events as you want to use.
-
The rule for healing unique characters only applies to Companions and Allies, not Minions
If you were at a tournament and someone played Chance Observation or Cirdan, The Shipwright you could ask the umpire to verify the persons discard pile. In casual play I would hope your opponent would be gracious enough to oblige you.
This needs to be moved to the Archives
-
What you are wanting to do with unique minions is only a Fellowship action. From the rulebook:
• “Discard to heal.” Spot a unique companion or unique ally with at least one wound and discard a card from your hand with the same card title (it may have a different subtitle) to heal that character.
Also, take note that you CANNOT discard a companion to heal an unwounded companion.
-
Also, take note that you CANNOT discard a companion to heal an unwounded companion.
what-the? this last thing is a shock,.. we do it all the time followed by the principle that if you pay the cost, it doesn't matters that you get the effect. By quoting the ruling I see you are right, mainly we didn't check out the sentence throughly and just though the cost was spotting an unique companion or ally and the effect was optional (removing a wound)...
Thanks again
-
Also, 2 other quick questions:
1) Does •Gandalf, Friend of the Shirefolk 's stregnth increases with only companions? I mean if he's the only companion (besides frodo) can he boost his strength by spotting allies such as: •Thrarin, Dwarven Smith, •Elrond, Lord of Rivendell, and •Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor? (or does the word fellowship implies the actual traveling companion gang...)
PD= Same with One of You Must Do This
2) Which card is discarded and which one is taking into the shadow's player (this doesn't seem to matter much but I'd like to know for the understanding of these actions mechanism..) when:
a Goblin Scavengers is played bringing an Goblin Scimitar and there's a •Greatest Kingdom of My People in play. Is the top card of the deck discarded and then the next one drawn, or is it something someone can choose..
PD= I've been discarding •Greatest Kingdom of My People AND a top deck card whenever a Goblin Warrior is played. I want to make sure it's right.
-------
I guess I have many questions about FotR because I didn't start playing LotR when this exp came up. I entered the tcg frenzy on two towers...
-
Also, 2 other quick questions:
1) Does •Gandalf, Friend of the Shirefolk 's stregnth increases with only companions? I mean if he's the only companion (besides frodo) can he boost his strength by spotting allies such as: •Thrarin, Dwarven Smith, •Elrond, Lord of Rivendell, and •Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor? (or does the word fellowship implies the actual traveling companion gang...)
PD= Same with One of You Must Do This
I'm not sure. I know nowadays it excludes minions (because there ARE Men that are minions...) but I'm not sure whether it affects allies.
2) Which card is discarded and which one is taking into the shadow's player (this doesn't seem to matter much but I'd like to know for the understanding of these actions mechanism..) when:
a Goblin Scavengers is played bringing an Goblin Scimitar and there's a •Greatest Kingdom of My People in play. Is the top card of the deck discarded and then the next one drawn, or is it something someone can choose..
I think the top card is discarded, and then one is drawn.
PD= I've been discarding •Greatest Kingdom of My People AND a top deck card whenever a Goblin Warrior is played. I want to make sure it's right.
I'm pretty sure it is.
-
Allies are no part of your fellowship, so they can't be spotted for those particalar cards..I think I agree again with Elf_Lvr when it comes to the explaination of those situations, cause I'm not entirely sure about the wording of 'Each Time' and 'When'...and like I said, I'm not able to open the CRD :(
-
Allies are no part of your fellowship
Is that written explicitly in the rule book?
About the order, I really don't know. I'd dare to say that the card drawing from the scimitar should be the last to resolve, 'cause all "when you play" actions involving the scavenger should be resolved first, but that's just a guess. I don't think the rule book goes that far.
-
Well it wouldn't make sense, for you only add twilight for your fellowshipmembers....
-
I can't really quote the Rulebook as I have no idea where mine is, but yes, it DID say in the FotR Rulebook, at least, that allies were not part of the fellowship.
-
Also, 2 other quick questions:
1) Does •Gandalf, Friend of the Shirefolk 's stregnth increases with only companions? I mean if he's the only companion (besides frodo) can he boost his strength by spotting allies such as: •Thrarin, Dwarven Smith, •Elrond, Lord of Rivendell, and •Barliman Butterbur, Prancing Pony Proprietor? (or does the word fellowship implies the actual traveling companion gang...)
PD= Same with One of You Must Do This
Yep, definitely cannot spot allies. "In the fellowship" means they must be one of your 9 allotted companions.
2) Which card is discarded and which one is taking into the shadow's player (this doesn't seem to matter much but I'd like to know for the understanding of these actions mechanism..) when:
a Goblin Scavengers is played bringing an Goblin Scimitar and there's a •Greatest Kingdom of My People in play. Is the top card of the deck discarded and then the next one drawn, or is it something someone can choose..
My instinct in this case (and it's only instinct and that's likely going to be the best that you're going to get) is that first the Orc enters the void and is then played triggering the movement of the scimitar into the void and also triggering GKoMP. Then the scimitar leaves the void and enters play so you draw a card.
PD= I've been discarding •Greatest Kingdom of My People AND a top deck card whenever a Goblin Warrior is played. I want to make sure it's right.
Now these effects happen simultaneously as they both trigger off playing the goblin. So I think you do both.
Thranduil
-
Sicne all he's getting is instant, I'd just go with APNAP from MtG, at least it gives a solution for cases like this that's going to work every time. Even though, seeing as another card game already has a solution for these situations, I DO believe LotR ALSO had one. I actually recall reading something about it back in the day, althgouh it COULD have been a complaint for not having a way to solve it...
-
About the Goblin Scimitar and •Greatest Kingdom of My People playing timing... The correct order of the events should be play scavenger -> discard the top card of the draw deck (since it´s is a required action) -> after that you draw one card with scimitar text (since it´s a optional action due to the word "may"). Same thing with Goblin Warrior and Greatest Kingdom. You first discard a card from the top of the draw deck then you may use Goblin Warrior text and discard the condition.
I´m just not sure about the spoting thing with the allies. I can´t remember nothing in the rulebook that states that they can´t be spotted as a race, I think they can, but i´m not sure about that.
Hope that helps. If someone finds something in the rulebook about the ally stuff let us know!
-
From the rulebook "Allies do not count as members of your fellowship"
In the case of Goblin Warrior and Greatest Kingdom of my People, GKomP responds to the cost of playing the Goblin Warrior, then the effect of playing Goblin Warrior happens.
-
And yeah, allies have a race and thus can be spotted. Or the event/special ability says: number of races in a fellowship :D
-
And yeah, allies have a race and thus can be spotted. Or the event/special ability says: number of races in a fellowship :D
In fact his text says that :)
I have take a look at the rulebook and it seems Jord get it right cause "Each player has his own fellowship, made up of a Ring-bearer and other companions." and "Allies do not count as members of your fellowship."
That doesn´t mean you can´t spot their races, but the line "...in the fellowship" prevent you for counting them in this case.
-
What I meant was that some cards make you spot any number of races, in that case you can spot all you allies. But I could think that there was a card that would say: spot any number of races IN your fellowship...But I guess I was just showing off, wanted to contribute to the debate...;D
-
I always liked the ability to spot allies with The Last Alliance of Elves and Men... ;D
-
2) Which card is discarded and which one is taking into the shadow's player (this doesn't seem to matter much but I'd like to know for the understanding of these actions mechanism..) when:
a Goblin Scavengers is played bringing an Goblin Scimitar and there's a •Greatest Kingdom of My People in play. Is the top card of the deck discarded and then the next one drawn, or is it something someone can choose..
GKoMP has priority because it's a required action, whereas Goblin Scavengers is optional. If a situation arises where several required actions must take place, the Free Peoples player gets to decide the order. The "action" entry has more details.
PD= I've been discarding •Greatest Kingdom of My People AND a top deck card whenever a Goblin Warrior is played. I want to make sure it's right.
To expand things a bit, let's say Goblin Warrior was reworded to be a required action so that it's able to resolve first, discarding GKoMP. In this case GKoMP will still get to discard a card. This is because both cards triggered when the Orc hit the table; even though GKoMP has been discarded, its action in the "queue" must still be resolved (it doesn't "fizzle").
-
OK.. convinced enough. Thanks, although I want to know what APNAP from Mtg is ...
Sicne all he's getting is instant, I'd just go with APNAP from MtG, at least ...
--------------------------------
About:
GKoMP has priority because it's a required action, whereas Goblin Scavengers is optional. If a situation arises where several required actions must take place, the Free Peoples player gets to decide the order. The "action" entry has more details.
and since you expanded the topic, say there are more cards that trigger with words such as "each time" from both players in play (suppose several conditions).
Then what, the freep gets to decide to trigger all of his first or are they given as entwined (is it intertwined????) actions? (I mean, first one of the freep, then one of the shadow, then one of shadow player 2 if there is, etc.. then again one from the freep...¿?).
I can't think of a case right now, but I'm pretty sure I've seen something critic come up at moments like this with the simultneous triggering of multiple conditions--- like those triggered when the freep loses initiave.. (10 uncommon cards mainly).--
-
For required actions, the FP player chooses what order they happen (the triggering itself isn't a choice), regardless of whether the actions originate from FP or Shadow cards. Optional actions follow the action procedure, which just means the FP and Shadow players alternate performing actions, with the FP player getting to go first. (If there are several Shadow players, the opportunity to perform actions continues counter-clockwise around the table.) Players may choose to pass on performing optional actions when it's their chance to go.
-
yes.. alternate. that was the word I was looking for.
-
GKoMP has priority because it's a required action, whereas Goblin Scavengers is optional. If a situation arises where several required actions must take place, the Free Peoples player gets to decide the order. The "action" entry has more details.
I have to say something about this...According to the rulebook, whenever the free peoples player and the shadows player could do an action at the exact same time, (when a minion is played) the free peoples player is first, then play alternates for multiple actions. The exact same thing goes for skirmish: actions, maneuver: actions, and response: actions.
Of course, if an action is a required action, it still needs to happen, but in timing conflicts the FPP gets the first action.
Hoped I could clear this up a bit.
-
NOW that I see the solution D gave it, I think it IS more suited to LotR than "borrowing" APNAP system from MtG, since it wouldn't work so great in a game that has a small interaction in-between actions (meaning specifically a really small number of Response actions).
-
GKoMP has priority because it's a required action, whereas Goblin Scavengers is optional. If a situation arises where several required actions must take place, the Free Peoples player gets to decide the order. The "action" entry has more details.
I have to say something about this...According to the rulebook, whenever the free peoples player and the shadows player could do an action at the exact same time, (when a minion is played) the free peoples player is first, then play alternates for multiple actions. The exact same thing goes for skirmish: actions, maneuver: actions, and response: actions.
Of course, if an action is a required action, it still needs to happen, but in timing conflicts the FPP gets the first action.
Hoped I could clear this up a bit.
Required actions do not follow the action procedure. Here's the part in the rulebook I'm looking at:
If two or more required actions are occurring at the same time (for example, more than one “start of turn” action), the Free Peoples player decides in which order they occur.
All required actions responding to a particular trigger are performed before any optional actions. After all such required actions have resolved, players may perform optional actions responding to that same trigger using the action procedure.
-
yes, I think ES's quote from the rule book fits to it.
I'm gonna follow this answer..
-
To expand things a bit, let's say Goblin Warrior was reworded to be a required action so that it's able to resolve first, discarding GKoMP. In this case GKoMP will still get to discard a card. This is because both cards triggered when the Orc hit the table; even though GKoMP has been discarded, its action in the "queue" must still be resolved (it doesn't "fizzle").
Actually, I might need to correct that. If an action is triggered, does it resolve if the card is discarded first?
Example: Corsair Marauder is played. FP player kills him with Shadowplay / Unheeded. Does the Shadow player get to discard a possession?
Similarly, if the costs are paid, are the effects performed if the card is discarded first?
Example: Ulaire Enquea, LoM exerts to wound a companion. FP player responds to the exertion with Unheeded, killing Enquea. Does a companion still take a wound?
-
To expand things a bit, let's say Goblin Warrior was reworded to be a required action so that it's able to resolve first, discarding GKoMP. In this case GKoMP will still get to discard a card. This is because both cards triggered when the Orc hit the table; even though GKoMP has been discarded, its action in the "queue" must still be resolved (it doesn't "fizzle").
Actually, I might need to correct that. If an action is triggered, does it resolve if the card is discarded first?
Example: Corsair Marauder is played. FP player kills him with Shadowplay / Unheeded. Does the Shadow player get to discard a possession?
Similarly, if the costs are paid, are the effects performed if the card is discarded first?
Example: Ulaire Enquea, LoM exerts to wound a companion. FP player responds to the exertion with Unheeded, killing Enquea. Does a companion still take a wound?
If i remember correctly if the source card leaves play it's response no longer triggers. I think the example was the Cave Troll with his chain. The last wound he takes in archery cannot be responded to wound a companion since the source card is no more in play.
Still, i think that the rulebook is not conclusive about this (like with many other aspects).
-
If you have met the costs then you will receive the effects. GatS exerts twice, gets Unheeded and dies but his ability has been paid for so you still exert a companion twice.
Again, I think it would be slightly OP if you paid the cost and met all requirements, then not only had your minion killed but lost its effect as well!
Example @ Buckland Homestead I play a Nazgul. You respond by Shadowplay/Unheeded killing my minion. But I have played a Nazgul, so I still get to discard a condition.
Effects are only prevented if you change the costs, and those costs cannot be met.
-
Right, that's how I've also seen costs/effects previously ruled. It seems that, based on this thread (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php?topic=1607.30), the same extends to triggered actions (e.g. "Each time a minion is played...") as well.
Magic players should be able to fill me in better, but spells on the stack must be resolved even if the originating card is destroyed, right? I don't think LotR ever formalized this.
-
Magic players should be able to fill me in better, but spells on the stack must be resolved even if the originating card is destroyed, right? I don't think LotR ever formalized this.
Yeah that's true. That's unfortunately not much help in working out what is done in Lord of the Rings. But I agree with you guys, I think once you've paid the cost you get the effect.
Thranduil
-
Yeah, I agree that you get the effect. This response actions trigger to do stuff things that can include interruptions in between the effect; but I think the shadow will get to do it.
Cave Troll's case may be different
If i remember correctly if the source card leaves play it's response no longer triggers. I think the example was the Cave Troll with his chain. The last wound he takes in archery cannot be responded to wound a companion since the source card is no more in play.
because the shadow player didn't make/chose any action -nor paid any cost-.
Just got his minion wounded and can make a response if the timing allows it.
-
Right, that's how I've also seen costs/effects previously ruled. It seems that, based on this thread (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php?topic=1607.30), the same extends to triggered actions (e.g. "Each time a minion is played...") as well.
Magic players should be able to fill me in better, but spells on the stack must be resolved even if the originating card is destroyed, right? I don't think LotR ever formalized this.
First of, there's no such thing as a stack in LOTR TCG. The concept of a stack (last in, first out) is totally different from how stuff happens in LOTR. Again, LOTR and Magic have almost nothing in common, besides being cardgames, so let's completely avoid comparisons between both, specially when discussing such specific issues.
I don't think this has to be formalized; if you pay the cost, you get the effect, unless a card prevents it. Unheeded doesn't prevent anything, it wounds a minion if it exerts. If that minion leaves play or not, it doesn't matter: a cost was paid and so an effect has to take place. It's easy as ABC. Nobody never said that if a "source" leaves play it's effect won't happen... I've never even seen this terminology in LOTR rulebooks before.
-
The issue with Cave Troll's Chain is slightly different. Taking a wound is a required action, therefore the Cave Troll dies before any optional actions (like the Chain's "you may") can take place. Similarly, my reading would be if a card required you to discard Corsair Marauder when you played him, the Shadow player would not be able to discard a possession.
Thranduil
-
Well, in the Marauder case, he'd still be played.
And I think the Chain would work on the last wound, personally - because he's still taking a wound. Even for a fraction of a second, there's a Cave Troll sitting on the table with 4 wounds on 'im. Maybe he dies instantaneously, but I think the Chain responds to that wound regardless.
-
Well, in the Marauder case, he'd still be played.
And I think the Chain would work on the last wound, personally - because he's still taking a wound. Even for a fraction of a second, there's a Cave Troll sitting on the table with 4 wounds on 'im. Maybe he dies instantaneously, but I think the Chain responds to that wound regardless.
But he doesn't. The specific rules clarification in this case says that he doesn't. And I've said why.
Thranduil