The Last Homely House

Middle-Earth => Bag End => Topic started by: Kralik on May 02, 2009, 10:39:02 AM

Title: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Kralik on May 02, 2009, 10:39:02 AM
This isn't a rant against Decipher in general or their later sets, and I don't want to turn it into one.

BUT...

I still can't figure out why certain cards exist when they are completely redundant. Here's one prime example:

Hobbit Intuition either cancels a skirmish (great!) or gives +3 to strength. So what is the point to cards like Halfling Deftness and Noble Intentions*? I suppose the (0) twilight, at the cost of an exertion? So then what about A Marvel in King block? No advantage.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: silver.telperion on May 02, 2009, 10:50:02 AM
My guess would be to allow the ability more in a deck.  A deck can (for example) only have four copies of Hobbit Intuition.  If a player likes the strength bonus, four Halfing Deftness could be added for more strength boosts.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Malachi on May 02, 2009, 02:14:47 PM
Besides, we're talking about commons here ;)
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: SomeRandomDude on May 02, 2009, 06:02:10 PM
Why did MtG make Counterspell and Cancel? Exact same thing, except that the latter costs 1 more mana. Cuz most control decks packed 4 copies of each.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Kralik on May 02, 2009, 07:39:13 PM
How many decks are going to have 8x Hobbit Pumps?
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: FM on May 02, 2009, 11:02:56 PM
But that's another issue, then. LotR DID have a problem with deckbuilding strategies, due to the nature of the game, but I'll not delve into this, I'd rather discuss it by PM if need be.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: MR. Lurtzy on May 02, 2009, 11:43:48 PM
I'd like to hear that.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Gate Troll on May 03, 2009, 01:32:35 PM
This isn't a rant against Decipher in general or their later sets, and I don't want to turn it into one.

BUT...

I still can't figure out why certain cards exist when they are completely redundant. Here's one prime example:

Hobbit Intuition either cancels a skirmish (great!) or gives +3 to strength. So what is the point to cards like Halfling Deftness and Noble Intentions*? I suppose the (0) twilight, at the cost of an exertion? So then what about A Marvel in King block? No advantage.

Well, it's all about money, and they had no real reason not to make redundant cards, so, from their point of view, why not?
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: silver.telperion on May 03, 2009, 02:48:39 PM
How many decks are going to have 8x Hobbit Pumps?

I would run 4x each Hobbit stealth and Hobbit intuition in Fellowship block hobbit decks.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Imrahil on May 03, 2009, 05:24:35 PM
Light-Footedness

Spot an elf to make the minion archery total -1


I just don't understand...
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: MuadDib85 on May 03, 2009, 07:04:11 PM
So then what about A Marvel in King block? No advantage.
I would say maybe for standard format you don't get any of the set 1 cancels/pumps, possibly A Marvel and cards like No visitors, Humble Homestead were meant to be the hobbit equivelant for standard.?.

I don't know enough about this topic... possibly decipher had all formats in mind when putting certain redundant cards in to sets so that you can use a similar strategy with different cards in different formats??

An exert for the cost A Marvel could maybe sometimes be handy to put on one of your hobbits that is going to die anyway instead of giving your opponent an extra twilite to nail you with a nasty event...possibly.

But 1 twilite and an exert is alot to pay for a +3 pump....IMO Hobbit Intuition is an awesome card.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Kralik on May 03, 2009, 08:19:27 PM
would run 4x each Hobbit stealth and Hobbit intuition in Fellowship block hobbit decks.

This I can understand, as they are very similar but each has its own strength.

I don't know enough about this topic... possibly decipher had all formats in mind when putting certain redundant cards in to sets so that you can use a similar strategy with different cards in different formats??

Perhaps to have the pump for King-only decks? Someone enlighten me -- had Decipher already scheduled the set rotation for Standard when they made King block? It seems that if rotation was an issue, they could just reprint cards later (like Hobbit Sword, for example...)
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: ephen on May 05, 2009, 03:53:39 AM
Hobbit intuition cancels the skirmishes so if you want to win the skirmish before site 5 a straight pump is better. and cards like a marvel are just so each block has hobbit pumps for drafts and block play. Magic did this quite a bit even printing identical cards with different names.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Vroengard on May 05, 2009, 01:03:01 PM
I think it is very easy, the first set is, in parts, very strong, in many cards you can easily see, that it was the first set and playtesting not that far. Both stealth events were TOO strong. I can tell from my experiences on tournaments back then. There were several players with 8 of these. It was horrible. That's why they made the TTT versions very much a light version ( dunno the names of both)  :roll:

Same for (my opinion) flaming brand, galadriel, lady of light, thrors map  :lol: .... they got banned or errata for reason, even if I still play them as they are...
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Thranduil on May 06, 2009, 07:36:20 AM
This is not a complete answer, but this is a very important point when it comes to designing games.

It is vital for a TCG or CCG that cards have varying power level. There have to be some completely awesome cards (without being broken, like SftF, CbtR) and there have to be some terrible cards that are never (or almost never) worth playing. The main reason for this is because then it allows the game to very easily differentiate good players and bad players - the better players know what cards are good, so they use those to build their decks while the bad players might consider the bad cards better than they ought (for example, when I first saw SftF, I thought it was terrible! #-o ).

There's also another more obvious reason: without the bad cards, you have no way of judging how good a card is. The fact that there are good and bad cards puts them into context.

Thranduil
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Gil-Estel on May 06, 2009, 08:05:46 AM
There's also another more obvious reason: without the bad cards, you have no way of judging how good a card is. The fact that there are good and bad cards puts them into context.

Thranduil

And this makes LotR tcg part of literature, for since the beginning of writing the contradiction of good vs bad is an important theme in lterature :uh-huh:

Sorry, Thran, for making fun of your comment, but I couldn't agree with you more! But maybe it is also a way of good players to improve their skills. It is not that hard, especially with all the decklists on this site to make a good deck, but to make a deck with less used cards, that is a challenge....
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Ringbearer on May 07, 2009, 04:23:28 AM
And not to wonder how many pumps there are in King Block. Some cards seem worse then older cards because in retrospect cards where a little bit powerful. Thats why in TTT block the hobit cancellers didnt give strength bonuses, and thats why there are no hobbit cancellers at all in king block.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: FM on May 07, 2009, 05:57:12 AM
In fact, that`s more of a flavor reason. Hobbits pretty much evaded stuff all around in the beggining of movie 1. In movie 2, they still evaded quite a few things, although only Pippin and Merry did so, which is why the cancelling is fairly limited to them. In King Block, they were all tossed into the fire of action, so they didn`t get to evade stuff at all, they all had to "fight" at some point (be it real battles or internal ones).
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Elessar's Socks on May 08, 2009, 12:50:36 AM
Haha, and I thought Swords to Plowshares was bad: "But it gives my opponent life!" :lol:

Not sure if Decipher ever released a similar article, but Magic has a good read here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr5) about bad cards--both why they exist by nature, and why they might be purposely created regardless.
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: Malachi on May 08, 2009, 04:16:43 AM
That's a very interesting article to read. Even if I don't know Magic at all, in this aspect all CCg are similiar anyway  :uh-huh:
Title: Re: Why did Decipher make redundant cards?
Post by: FM on May 08, 2009, 07:06:36 PM
There's an article on the MtG section, by our own La_Sin_Grail, who used to be a mod at CC, that follows a similar path.