The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: Yloquen on November 19, 2009, 09:50:54 AM
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What happens when a player selects an invalid target for certain spell or effect. Say, we have Black Breath attached, but, mistakenly, someone tries to heal the companion it's attached to. Does the spell fizzle (its effect canceled), or should the player go back or should he choose another valid target and if that is not available, only then the effect is canceled.
Second question regards East Road. Is its effect applied for the starting fellowship?
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East Road is not applied to the starting fellowship (nice idea though).
If someone tries to heal with Black Breath, it does not happen. The spell "fizzles," like you say. If someone says, "Oops, I meant to heal someone else," it is your call. You can either be a #$&*@! and say, "A card laid is a card played" or you can let them go back and heal.
-wtk
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Thanks for the clarification. If memory serves me right, in Magic when you play a spell but choose an invalid target you are allowed to choose a valid target. If no such target is available, the spell is countered (goes to waste not back to your hand).
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I don't think there's any official rule for this in LotR. Just be reasonable with your opponent.
Thranduil
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Choosing valid targets is part of the requirement section of playing a card. So you couldnt target someone who bears Black Breath with Have Patience, for example.
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Choosing valid targets is part of the requirement section of playing a card. So you couldnt target someone who bears Black Breath with Have Patience, for example.
Are you sure you cannot "heal" for no effect?
Similarly, can you spot a unique, wounded companion and discard another copy of that companion from hand to heal them at Steward's Tomb... even if wounds cannot be healed?
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This is true. Ignore my last statement, I'm thinking of Magic again
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Example of what's been bugging me: is there a difference between trying to target exhausted companions with Rout, and trying to target non-healable companions (with the Aragorn signet) with Hard Choice?
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The only way I can think to put it is that you must do as much as you can to fulfill a cards gametext.
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The only way I can think to put it is that you must as much as you can to fulfill a cards gametext.
Yeah, this seems right. You pay the costs (adding [1] and spotting Aragorn) and you try to fulfill as much of the effect as you can. You try and heal the companion with Black Breath, but you can't so nothing happens.
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And with Rout... you do as much as possible to fulfill it. So... you have to exert companions that are possible to exert first.
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Well, put it this way: I'm wondering why you can't choose non-exertable companions with Rout, but can choose non-healable companions with Hard Choice (to make the effect fizzle). Unless I misunderstood here, and the selection is no-go for Hard Choice too.
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Well, since you have paid the cost of Hard Choice (Spot Aragorn), couldn't you play it even if no companions with the Aragorn signet exist? You don't have to either spot a companion with the Aragorn signet OR a "healable" companion.
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Kralik: Well put, exactly.
-wtk
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Well, since you have paid the cost of Hard Choice (Spot Aragorn), couldn't you play it even if no companions with the Aragorn signet exist? You don't have to either spot a companion with the Aragorn signet OR a "healable" companion.
Right, but the issue for me is what happens after you play it. Let's say you have two companions with the Aragorn signet, one with Black Breath and one (wounded) without. Given that you're to complete the effects as much as possible, why can you choose the companion who can't be healed?
To do this, it seems you are doing a form of targeting before "complete the effects as much as possible" kicks in. Which was the impression I had, but I'm not sure how to back that up. With Rout for example, targeting is merged with the effects--if you have a companion who is exhausted and another who isn't, you must choose to carry out the effects on the companion who isn't.
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This question is related to the game I mentioned, that I'm writing. I have actually gotten to rule implementation and enforcing though I'm at the beginning and now I'm considering how to do everything I need.
About Black Breath - my feeling is that you shouldn't be able to select its bearer as a target. So, say someone among your Fellowship has Black Breath and you play a healing spell. You play the ability, pay all its costs and then look for target. If no target can be found, the spell will fizzle, which is roughly the same as if you select the Black Breath wearer but the spell has no effect on him.
The implementation of Hard Choice - Is spotting Aragorn additional cost (similarly to Magic's - as an additional cost to play X, do Y), or is it only needed after you play it and then if you cannot spot him, the effect is not applied. This second option seems to have the advantage of allowing you to get rid of cards you don't want (say if Aragorn is dead).
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You must spot Aragorn to play Hard Choice; however, the target for the effect can be anyone, even an unwounded or non-healable companion.
-wtk
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Here is another example to understand the concept of paying costs. Most decks that run Gandalf run some form of condition removal. Deep In Thought is a very common condition that is run with Gandalf.
There are three costs to playing Deep In Thought. One is [4] and the other two are spotting requirements--Gandalf and [4]. The twilight used to play Deep In Thought does not count toward the [4] that you must spot. So you cannot play the card unless you can spot Gandalf and [4] (before you add the [4] to play the card).
There are a ton of [Gandalf] maneuver events that can generate twilight. Another common card is Roll of Thunder. This card costs [3]. There are two costs for this card. Spotting Gandalf and [3]. Since Roll of Thunder is a fairly common card in decks with [Gandalf] support, many people use it to generate the twilight necessary for Deep In Thought. You may play Roll of Thunder as long as you complete the requirements--adding twilight and spotting Gandalf, even if there is no possession or artifact to discard.
To bring this back to Hard Choice. There are two costs. Paying [1] and spotting Aragorn. The effect is healing someone with the Aragorn Signet twice. You can play this event even if you have no companion with the Aragorn signet in play, as long as you can spot Aragorn and pay [1].
I think that Black Breath would likely be errata'ed as a clarification if a Players Committee was created so that it would look more like Swept Away or Steward's Tomb*.
[1] Black Breath
Condition • Support Area
Skirmish: Transfer this condition from your support area to a character skirmishing a Nazgul. Wounds cannot be healed and burdens cannot be removed from bearer.
That is what the card would look like to be more in-line with the game as it now stands.
-wtk
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Sorry to keep this going, but think about Sam, Faithful Companion or Sam, Frodo's Gardener.
Each of them has a Fellowship ability that you can use. In the case of Sam, Faithful Companion, Bill the Pony is X-Listed in Movie Block; however, you can still use Sam to look in your draw deck and basically give yourself a free shuffle, even though you cannot play Bill the Pony.
Similarly, even if you don't have Sam's Pack in your deck (it costs (0)...so you might as well at least run the first copy...) you can use Sam, Frodo's Gardener to "look for" Sam's Pack and then choose not to play it.
It is odd, yes, but that is the way the rules work!
-wtk
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About Black Breath - my feeling is that you shouldn't be able to select its bearer as a target. So, say someone among your Fellowship has Black Breath and you play a healing spell. You play the ability, pay all its costs and then look for target. If no target can be found, the spell will fizzle, which is roughly the same as if you select the Black Breath wearer but the spell has no effect on him.
If it's for a game you're working on Yloquen, by all means spell it out. Different setups IMO between "Target: A card. / Effect: Do X to the card." and "Effect: Do X to the card that can most complete X."
The implementation of Hard Choice - Is spotting Aragorn additional cost (similarly to Magic's - as an additional cost to play X, do Y), or is it only needed after you play it and then if you cannot spot him, the effect is not applied. This second option seems to have the advantage of allowing you to get rid of cards you don't want (say if Aragorn is dead).
Spotting is a requirement, and requirements must be met before costs can be paid. If you can't spot Aragorn, Hard Choice will return to your hand from the void (step 2 of "playing a card" in the 8/13 CRD).
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It seems to me that I'll have to take into account both situations.
1) A card, which requires a target, to be played at all (e.g. a weapon).
2) A card, which can be played without target, and consequently, its effect is lost.