The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Chamber of Mazarbul => Topic started by: Thranduil on March 27, 2010, 04:35:38 PM
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I had a random thought recently (as I often do!), and I thought going around designing all these cards and all these sets was all well and good, but at the end of the day when the design process consists of 1 person, it's always going to be flawed.
So I came up with this experiment: The TLHH DC Project.
What is The TLHH DC Project?
We are going to form a design team, then design a DC set. Simple.
What does this entail?
There are a few steps to making a set, basically summarised by: 1) set themes, 2) set mechanics, 3) design skeleton, 4) card design (though naturally all these steps would become intertwined as we go through). As this is an experiment, however, we will not be doing all of the preliminaries (if this goes well, we might be able to do that in future!).
So, I am going to lead design by stating a set title, a set theme, some ideas for set mechanics and produce the skeleton.
What is a design skeleton?
I'm glad you asked! You can read MTG's Mark Rosewater talk about it here (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/78). Essentially, it's a way of presenting all the card slots in a set. A short excerpt might look a little like this:
*RC1 RR
*!RR1
DWC1 Companion
DWC2 Companion
DWC3 Follower
DWC4 Possession
DWC5 Condition Pump
DWU1 Companion
DWU2 Companion
DWU3 Condition Tale
DWU4 Event
DWR1 Companion
DWR2 Follower
DWR3 Condition
ELC1 Companion
So you can see a code on one side. This tells you which culture, rarity and slot number it is (so "DWC5" means it is the 5th [Dwarven] common, ELU2 is the 2nd [Elven] uncommon etc.). The next column tells you what sort of card that slot needs to be (whether it's a companion, minion, possession etc.). The other columns are for notes about what the card ought to do, which mechanics it should be promoting etc. (eg. you'll notice "*RC1", which means [Ring] common 1, is designated "RR" which means Ruling Ring, and one of the common [Dwarven] events is classed as a pump card, like Their Halls of Stone).
This is the sort of design skeleton that I will produce, and then as a group we will fill it with cards! The skeleton has many advantages - at a glance, you can look and see what the set is missing, noticing that perhaps [Gondor] doesn't have a common possession, or that [Men] doesn't quite have enough minions.
In what ways is this different from a DC contest?
It's quite different. In contests, you try to make flashy cards that capture flavour and imagination. Obviously you will be making some of them here, but not all the time. You will also need to produce cards that are simply functional or perform an important job emphasising the set's themes or a culture's strengths. This is a very different skill.
Also, for a DC contest, you generally make 1 card at a time - a self-contained unit. While cards should have identities of their own, no card in a set is entirely self-contained and you have to think in a different way. For example, you may really want to design an awesome [Uruk] rare event that cares about resistance in a set where hardly any Shadow cards care about it, or an amazing new Ranger's Cloak when there are no rangers in the set. Big picture considerations need to be taken.
How is this going to work?
As I said, I'll post the set name, themes, and some mechanics to get us all started.
The first thing we'll do is flesh out the design skeleton. This means filling in as many of the slots with summaries of what it's going to be, whether it's a reprint or a condition, or a possession discarder, and so on.
Once that's done reasonably well, we'll get onto the cards. Cards to be designed for this set will be posted in some communal thread, reviewed, and if liked will be put into the file. The skeleton will be updated, and there'll be a card list somewhere which will be "the file".
So that's all well and good. How do I get involved with The TLHH DC Project?
That's easy: you just post here below or PM me. I don't think we'll have issues of size so I can't see ourselves turning anyone away who wants to be a designer.
If you don't want to be a designer, that's also fine: keep an eye open, review and give your opinions just as you would for a normal DC set that 1 person is designing.
Any suggestions from anyone on how this should run would be greatly appreciated.
So as I said, this is an experiment. I'm going to attach a poll, and please register your opinions. I've seen this done on MTG forums so I don't really see why it wouldn't work here. If there's enough enthusiasm, then I'll get the ball rolling.
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Pretty awesome! I think I may want to contribute.
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Which sets is this supposed to be compatible with?
Similarly, which set of Shadow cultures does it use: Movie ([dunland][gollum][isengard][moria][raider][ringwraith][sauron]) or post-Movie ([gollum][men][orc][uruk][wraith] with splash [isengard][moria][sauron])?
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Sounds similar to "The Will of the Collective"
The Star Trek PC once a year get the community to design a card. The card they design is released as a v-card.
I think your idea is a good one as the finished DC set will be designed by those that contribute. A high quality set of cards should be produced if you get alot of players input.
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I really like this idea but I think to be truly representative of the community, the community should have an input in the themes, name and balance of the set. Perhaps people who are interested could suggest a theme for the set (either a time period or a mechanic or something similar) and/or a name for it and we could vote from there? Also, particular themes/titles might suggest a shadow or FP heavy set.
Just some thoughts.
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I really like this idea but I think to be truly representative of the community, the community should have an input in the themes, name and balance of the set. Perhaps people who are interested could suggest a theme for the set (either a time period or a mechanic or something similar) and/or a name for it and we could vote from there? Also, particular themes/titles might suggest a shadow or FP heavy set.
Just some thoughts.
I have no problem with other people suggesting set title, or anything else for that matter. As an experiment, I thought it would be helpful if I got the first one off the ground, but as I said, I'm more than open to any suggestions people have! If this goes well, then definitely we could do this again from scratch.
Which sets is this supposed to be compatible with?
Similarly, which set of Shadow cultures does it use: Movie ([dunland][gollum][isengard][moria][raider][ringwraith][sauron]) or post-Movie ([gollum][men][orc][uruk][wraith] with splash [isengard][moria][sauron])?
Again this is an open question. One of my ideas would be to do Shelob's Lair, which was I think the next set planned after !Treachery & !Deceit. Or perhaps a Reflections style smaller set. But again, completely open to suggestions.
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Count me in, as I try to spare as much time as possible for TLHH.
As for the sets, I'd also suggest "Shelob's Lair" or "The Great Eye" as planned and take the new cultures with some Splashes. Movie Block is good as it is doesn't need to get changed. Standard does, in my eyes.
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As for the sets, I'd also suggest "Shelob's Lair" or "The Great Eye" as planned and take the new cultures with some Splashes. Movie Block is good as it is doesn't need to get changed. Standard does, in my eyes.
That would be my inclination also, which is why I suggested it, but I'm still open to other suggestions. That's a good way of putting it though.
Having checked the schedule I have printed on my Answer to All Riddles, The Great Eye was in fact the next set planned after T&D, so I would change my main suggestion to that.
Thranduil
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It looks like a fun idea, maybe I can try to contribute a bit.
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Deciding which format to support is going to be challenging given players have interest in different formats and some players show no interest in some formats of the game.
Maybe this set could support ALL formats. Cards that are intended to work in certain formats could have a compatibility code such as Movie, Standard, FOTR, etc.
Given these are dream cards, why limit the design to certain formats. This might only reduce the interest given different players like different formats.
Just a thought.
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I also vote for creating the Great Eye. I think that sounds promising.
I would suggest that the newer cultures are used barring splashes, although for backwards compatibility we could always print some keywords on a few minions (eg. Southron, Warg-rider etc.) if they seem relevant.
My dream for this set I think would be to reinvent Site Control in a more interesting interactive way. I would also want to represent the influence of the Great Eye across Middle Earth and its corrupting power.
Hmm, sounds like fun.
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I like all the ideas being talked about here - so please keep giving your thoughts!
About format, I would be worried about having too much openness (often, limiting options breeds creativity) for making the cards for any format. But as in any good design, there should be cards that have their purposes in different formats (casual, tournament, limited, standard, expanded etc.) just as there should be cards for different kinds of players.
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Make it for Standard. We all love Movie Block as it is and nobody wants a change, does anyone? ;)
And btw, I also got the names from my Release Schedule which isn't listed in the database, btw! Mister rabbit, did you miss something or did I?
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I think there's enough enthusiasm for this to get off the ground.
So I've posted a new poll about format, to concisely see opinions about which format should this set cater for.
Please vote! :mrgreen:
Thranduil
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I personally like the idea of every format getting a bit of love. New cards can be created within this sets that are compatible with specified formats. To combat the "I love the way the game is and don't want it to change" every format would have two versions - unmodified and modified. Simply, you can play with new cards or not.
I know this is more complicated when generating the cards as you will have to decide what format each card is intended to work with. The other potential issue is that the set itself will have no underlying purpose other than to expand existing playing formats.
Given this is a DC set, if you create cards that support every format of the game, you are promoting every aspect of the game. More members are likely to show an interest as you are guaranteed to be working with their favourite format, whilst at the same time expsosing them to their less preferred formats.
Just my 2 cents - i am sure there are many who don't agree with me.
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It doesn't make sense for it to be anything but standard.
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I personally like the idea of every format getting a bit of love. New cards can be created within this sets that are compatible with specified formats. To combat the "I love the way the game is and don't want it to change" every format would have two versions - unmodified and modified. Simply, you can play with new cards or not.
I know this is more complicated when generating the cards as you will have to decide what format each card is intended to work with. The other potential issue is that the set itself will have no underlying purpose other than to expand existing playing formats.
Given this is a DC set, if you create cards that support every format of the game, you are promoting every aspect of the game. More members are likely to show an interest as you are guaranteed to be working with their favourite format, whilst at the same time expsosing them to their less preferred formats.
Just my 2 cents - i am sure there are many who don't agree with me.
Well as I said, I think any good set has to support all formats in some way or another. And, if done well, it will not lose cohesion by doing so. But perhaps Movie Block is a slightly different kettle of fish given that it is in some ways a done and dusted deal? (is it like releasing a card in the latest MTG set Rise of the Eldrazi for Kamigawa block constructed?)
Anyway, apart from that aside, expanded will definitely be catered for regardless, so will standard, tournament, casual etc.
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And btw, I also got the names from my Release Schedule which isn't listed in the database, btw! Mister rabbit, did you miss something or did I?
Perhaps this? (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR00M02.html) If you have something else and it is a card with collector's info, PM me to let me know.
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And btw, I also got the names from my Release Schedule which isn't listed in the database, btw! Mister rabbit, did you miss something or did I?
Perhaps this? (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR00M02.html) If you have something else and it is a card with collector's info, PM me to let me know.
I have it on AtaR.
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...on the ATAR version, there's no planned set 18...
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Ah, right. This one. (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR04M01.html)
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But dear Thranduill there is allready a set callet Shelob's Lair:
http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,2172.0.html
;)
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Ah, right. This one. (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR04M01.html)
Yeah that's the one.
And yes you're right Smeagollum! Good thing we're doing The Great Eye. (whew...)
I've had a brainstorm about mechanics. I might post my ideas in a bit.
Thranduil
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Ah, right. This one. (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR04M01.html)
Yeah that's the one.
And yes you're right Smeagollum! Good thing we're doing The Great Eye. (whew...)
I've had a brainstorm about mechanics. I might post my ideas in a bit.
Thranduil
:D Well wouldn't mind if you would use the name shelob's Lair.... But would like to have my Annatar RB in it ;)
Actually did somebody notice that Decipher never planned of making set 18....
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Okay, so in a couple of days I'm going to get this project started. So now is the time to make any further points and to post your opinions and feedback!
Thranduil
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I apologise profusely for delaying. Unsurprisingly, the dying of my own computer has significantly hampered my abilities to do this. But hopefully soon.
And in the meantime, we have a really really close poll here and I'd love for as many people as possible to vote!
Thranduil
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Ah, right. This one. (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR04M01.html)
Sorry Kralik, but I expected to find it into the Promo Cards section, it's hidden pretty well... ;)
@Thranduil: Sounds good for me, as i don't have much time for Lotr TCG at all now, so maybe in a couple of weeks...
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Voted other: If and when V-set's be made then they should be part of a post decipher format in my opinion; For instance a post Decipher Revised Movieblock (so you'll have a movieblock as we have now and a revised movieblock).
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I personally like the idea of every format getting a bit of love. New cards can be created within this sets that are compatible with specified formats.
I think the set should have cards for both standard and movie block. Perhaps ALL the cards should be legal in Standard and 2/3 or 1/2 should be usable in Movie. That would be perfect, imo. And everyone would be happy. Well, except Ket, but he's never happy. ;)
j/k Ket.
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I don't see why there can't be a DC Block--it seems we have enough material and creative input to work with. By creating a separate block, we can choose features that from our experience work best with the game. This way, the DC Project won't "corrupt" or "dilude" existing blocks. I agree that Movie Block is fine as it is, and I feel that merely adding more cards won't improve Standard and will just make it even that more difficult to navigate in. My vote is to develop an entirely new post-Decipher block using the talent here on the site.
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I don't see why there can't be a DC Block--it seems we have enough material and creative input to work with. By creating a separate block, we can choose features that from our experience work best with the game. This way, the DC Project won't "corrupt" or "dilude" existing blocks.
DC block - i like it - kinda like 2nd Edition OR would it be more like 3rd (given that Decipher reinvented the game at set 11).
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Middle-Earth Expanded?
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I don't see why there can't be a DC Block--it seems we have enough material and creative input to work with. By creating a separate block, we can choose features that from our experience work best with the game. This way, the DC Project won't "corrupt" or "dilude" existing blocks. I agree that Movie Block is fine as it is, and I feel that merely adding more cards won't improve Standard and will just make it even that more difficult to navigate in. My vote is to develop an entirely new post-Decipher block using the talent here on the site.
Yeah I think this is the ideal. But we have no idea whether this idea is going to work yet! I suggest we do what we're currently planning, then if it goes well, we'll start on a DC block. And we can be a lot more ambitious the second time.
But I think in order to do that, the first stage The Great Eye (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php?topic=4575.new;topicseen#new) needs to go well.
That's my take, but obviously still open to suggestions!
Thranduil
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I think the set should have cards for both standard and movie block. Perhaps ALL the cards should be legal in Standard and 2/3 or 1/2 should be usable in Movie. That would be perfect, imo. And everyone would be happy. Well, except Ket, but he's never happy. ;)
j/k Ket.
I like the smiley face followed by the "j/k." Just making doubly-sure that I would not be offended.
Regardless, I think that I am staying out of this little project. Dream cards are fun in their own world, but this has a lot of potential to be, "We all created it so it can be our first virtual set to welcome in the Players' Committee." You know I just can't support that.
-wtk
You're right Ket, there is a danger there. I guess when I say 'legal in whatever block' I should say that I want the cards usable in certain blocks and targeted towards strategies prevalent in those blocks. Not a PC creation of some sort of V-cards.
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I think the set should have cards for both standard and movie block. Perhaps ALL the cards should be legal in Standard and 2/3 or 1/2 should be usable in Movie. That would be perfect, imo. And everyone would be happy. Well, except Ket, but he's never happy. ;)
j/k Ket.
I like the smiley face followed by the "j/k." Just making doubly-sure that I would not be offended.
Regardless, I think that I am staying out of this little project. Dream cards are fun in their own world, but this has a lot of potential to be, "We all created it so it can be our first virtual set to welcome in the Players' Committee." You know I just can't support that.
-wtk
:)
Understandable from your point of view. Admire this statement..., though I feel a bit sad and actually a bit unconfortable that because of this statement you wouldn't be able to be part of the fun. You don't see a go-between in here? Hope that you understand what I mean, because I'm not sure if I'm clear enough in my english... It some kind of regret I feel that you feel need to take this step.
Everything ok over there? Ok, bit of-topic, but just interested!
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I think the set should have cards for both standard and movie block. Perhaps ALL the cards should be legal in Standard and 2/3 or 1/2 should be usable in Movie. That would be perfect, imo. And everyone would be happy. Well, except Ket, but he's never happy. ;)
j/k Ket.
I like the smiley face followed by the "j/k." Just making doubly-sure that I would not be offended.
Regardless, I think that I am staying out of this little project. Dream cards are fun in their own world, but this has a lot of potential to be, "We all created it so it can be our first virtual set to welcome in the Players' Committee." You know I just can't support that.
-wtk
You're right Ket, there is a danger there. I guess when I say 'legal in whatever block' I should say that I want the cards usable in certain blocks and targeted towards strategies prevalent in those blocks. Not a PC creation of some sort of V-cards.
I would like actually 2 format section's:
1. Format section with just the current formats + current cards + crd
2. Format section with current formats + current cards + new virtual sets (which will also be in a new format) with refreshed crd.
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Regardless, I think that I am staying out of this little project. Dream cards are fun in their own world, but this has a lot of potential to be, "We all created it so it can be our first virtual set to welcome in the Players' Committee."
I don't think you need to be concerned with this issue, ket. These are not virtual cards and they're not being endorsed by any Players' Committee. This is just a group of us DC-makers having fun! ;)
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I think the set should have cards for both standard and movie block. Perhaps ALL the cards should be legal in Standard and 2/3 or 1/2 should be usable in Movie. That would be perfect, imo. And everyone would be happy. Well, except Ket, but he's never happy. ;)
j/k Ket.
I like the smiley face followed by the "j/k." Just making doubly-sure that I would not be offended.
Regardless, I think that I am staying out of this little project. Dream cards are fun in their own world, but this has a lot of potential to be, "We all created it so it can be our first virtual set to welcome in the Players' Committee." You know I just can't support that.
-wtk
We can't have a v-set without Deciphers approval. Do you really think the current players interested in a PC are going to organise that ;)
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Still, I think a DC set that stands on its own could be an entertaining notion. Like Ket, I feel Movie block shouldn't be tampered with. (I'm not familiar enough with Standard to base a judgment there...). However, even he must admit that a theroretically playable set made entirely of DCs would be a fun collaborative and creative endeavor that could help bring TLHH better unity. It doesn't need to be the launching point for a PC.
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Still, I think a DC set that stands on its own could be an entertaining notion. Like Ket, I feel Movie block shouldn't be tampered with. (I'm not familiar enough with Standard to base a judgment there...). However, even he must admit that a theroretically playable set made entirely of DCs would be a fun collaborative and creative endeavor that could help bring TLHH better unity. It doesn't need to be the launching point for a PC.
Agree - this just gives those of us that like this sort of stuff something else to do on TLHH. Perhaps it will lead to less PC talk?
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Is it too late to join this? (especially since someone brought up TWILIGHT NAZGUL - which I love)
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It's never too late! And it's not like you have to sign a form or anything... Just pop in and contribute whenever you like.
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Here or the other thread?
Man, I used to have a bunch of Twilight nazgul DC... wonder if I can find those... (I printed them out somewhere)
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Here or the other thread?
Man, I used to have a bunch of Twilight nazgul DC... wonder if I can find those... (I printed them out somewhere)
I'll try to make it clear what's going on. We're currently talking mechanics on the other thread, and at some point soon we'll start the cards in another thread still.
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You can now have general discussion here (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4575.msg52201.html#msg52201), and the cards will be made here (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4622.msg52790.html#msg52790).