The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Bag End => Topic started by: putridbreath on April 07, 2010, 02:31:32 PM
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So when the movies came out, I was but a lad and found LOTR cards at a game store where I purchased baseball cards. My dad bought me an Aragorn starter and I started collecting and playing. Because that store went out of business, I lost contact with the LOTR world right around TTT and its expansions. Finally, a store near my home sold individual boosters of ROTK and then it too, closed its doors to card players. I lost contact with the game until jackmaclintock and I decided to pull out our old collections and play (a couple years ago). We suddenly wanted to know what happened with the game? We decided to not go above set 10 because suddenly every character had resistance (wtf?), new keywords were added (hunter, lurker, etc.), cultures were lumped together (all encompassing men and orc cultures) and cards just seemed more complicated than they needed to be.
Other than what the LOTR Database could show us through cards, we had no idea what happened to the gaming community or how long this lasted. Decipher's LOTR website seemed oddly unfinished, still having articles about NEW Ents of Fangorn changes the game! and etc. Nothing past movie block there...
I guess what I'm getting at, is I'm curious as to what happened post movie block, not only with Decipher, but with the game itself and how things ended up with a Last Homely House for players to come to out of the shadows. As players debate the future of LOTR and a PC, I find it'd be useful to first look at the journey that got us here in the present.
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Does anybody know?
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Go ahead, but everyone else should beware of your extreme movie block bias.
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Well, here I go, others can adjust when needed.
Since Return of the King, Decipher found out that they were paying a lot for the licence that made it possible for them to even produce the cards. They needed to make more money, so they took a few measures to do so:
- Increasing the strenght of the cards, degenerating earlier cards
- Making new mechanics that led to overpowered combo's
- Introducing Decipher dollars, when playing a tournament you could only win Decipher dollars, which was, especially for the tournament players not very interesting. A lot of players quit and started, or returned to either WoW, Magic and a lot of players started playing poker, Texas Hold'em.
- No testplaying. There was at the end only 1 designer, that didn't do a lot of testplaying, which was sad. There were soooooo many players, that were dedicated to the game in all so many ways, that offered to testplay free of charge, in order to help the game, but all were neglected.
Again, feel free to add, where I am missing things, or where I am off
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I think the power level started going up with Fortress Never Fallen, it started a trend followed by cards like blood runs chill, catapult, etc... that let cultures do things they were never meant to do.
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Maybe if we had a PC they could make this dream a reality!
-wtk
Mhuahahahaha
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Go ahead, but everyone else should beware of your extreme movie block bias.
Extremism in the defense of movie block is no vice.
Are there any other blocks? I argue, no. I'm with Ket. ;D
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Are there any other blocks? I argue, no. I'm with Ket. ;D
What?
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Are there any other blocks? I argue, no. I'm with Ket. ;D
What?
I don't like using cards from Shadows and after.
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I dropped out when they nixed all the old shadow cultures (except [wraith] and [gollum]), too.
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Well, here I go, others can adjust when needed.
Since Return of the King, Decipher found out that they were paying a lot for the licence that made it possible for them to even produce the cards. They needed to make more money, so they took a few measures to do so:
- Increasing the strenght of the cards, degenerating earlier cards
- Making new mechanics that led to overpowered combo's
- Introducing Decipher dollars, when playing a tournament you could only win Decipher dollars, which was, especially for the tournament players not very interesting. A lot of players quit and started, or returned to either WoW, Magic and a lot of players started playing poker, Texas Hold'em.
- No testplaying. There was at the end only 1 designer, that didn't do a lot of testplaying, which was sad. There were soooooo many players, that were dedicated to the game in all so many ways, that offered to testplay free of charge, in order to help the game, but all were neglected.
Again, feel free to add, where I am missing things, or where I am off
How can anyone still enjoy playing Standard after reading that?
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- Increasing the strenght of the cards, degenerating earlier cards
For example, the hunter keyword, which basically says "all characters from earlier blocks are automatically weaker when skirmishing this character." That's not just escalation, that's completely brazen devaluation of earlier sets.
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i loved sets 11-19. however, i hate the hunter keyword. Movie block is the way to go, unless you're looking to power game. nevertheless, most people collect sets 1-19. there is a definant power creep starting in set 7 which grows exponentially until you hit set 19. Set 19 was good but more of a farewell to the gamers than a good solid set. you should look at the WDT format if you're curious about the latter sets. (wink, wink, plug, plug.)
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It's funny because SoG got me out of the game, and Hunter's brought me back in. :mrgreen:
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I have to agree with a number of sentiments here.
Most of the people in our area got out when Decipher hit the reset button with Shadows. Between the change of cultures and the power escalation the game just died here, and got much worse as the sets went on. When the few of us still play every once in awhile here (once a month or so) we tend to use almost exclusively cards from sets 1-10 even though I have 4 of practically every card in the game. It is not an enjoyable game when I use cards from the Hunters set (and beyond) against my opponent who has primarily cards from the movie blocks.
If I could go back in time I would try to make sure the reset button was never hit. To me, that was what killed the game the most for the players in our area....
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You can't play a game of cards with someone who refuses to use anything beyond set 10 especially when your using everything (1-19). That is why we have the WDT format (11-19)! Yea! Seriously though, I would love to play more games using the latter sets but there are few of us who use them.
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I feel honored to be in the presence of such a master interpreter.
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I would like to play more games with players using only sets 11-19.
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The game pretty much hit the "reset" button for set 11 by creating new powerful combinations and largely ostracizing the former playing base. Heije explained it pretty well, but a few other problems were the removal of foil subsets and overproduction of cards for sets 11-13 which drove down the values (a lot of those boxes are ~$10 from reputable stores).
Most of the people in our area got out when Decipher hit the reset button with Shadows. Between the change of cultures and the power escalation the game just died here, and got much worse as the sets went on.
The reset COULD have been done better (I posted ideas on how (http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/lotr-tcg/)) but like they tended to, Decipher half-a'd it and so it ended up pleasing nobody. Yes money was a concern and with the movies wrapping up (and the Hobbit no where in sight thanks to the scuffle between Jackson & Newline), I think part of the company knew the game was going to die (insert "self-fulfilling prophecy"). I still get angry at reflections being set 9 instead of 10 (whereas if it and Mt Doom had traded numbers, there would have been a glorious synergy to it all). Reflections wasn't bad, giving new players an easier way to get into the game and releasing some neat new cards that didn't quite fit in any other sets (SOME of the alternate ring-bearers I do like), however you could tell playtesting went out the window as Mt Doom had some of the most horrible and overpowered cards ever.
In another trick to try and slow the game's death, Decipher introduced card rotation. What made everyone so mad was that rotation was announced after several weeks where officials had sworn up and down that the game would never use that. Had the company been honest up front and even designed the later sets to better take advantage of rotation, things would have been better.
i loved sets 11-19. however, i hate the hunter keyword. Movie block is the way to go, unless you're looking to power game. nevertheless, most people collect sets 1-19. there is a definant power creep starting in set 7 which grows exponentially until you hit set 19. Set 19 was good but more of a farewell to the gamers than a good solid set. you should look at the WDT format if you're curious about the latter sets. (wink, wink, plug, plug.)
In my dream rules, it's sets 1-10 & 19 that are allowed.
The hunter keyword remains the only one I really, REALLY hated.
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In my dream rules, it's sets 1-10 & 19 that are allowed.
so play a sort of limited austrian format
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so play a sort of limited austrian format
Possibly, I've been away awhile so I'm still catching up on all the updates and formats and changes that have happened in the interim.
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http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,2330.0.html
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http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,2330.0.html
Thanks.
Hmmm... on that post:
--> one site of your deck may consist of one of the following: Cards from set 1-10 OR 7-19
Does he mean "one SIDE of your deck"? Because otherwise it's very confusing.
(though part of me is sad because Knights were always one of my favorite themes and the big D didn't really sync them until shadows on)
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http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,2330.0.html
Does he mean "one SIDE of your deck"? Because otherwise it's very confusing.
Yes, that's how it works.
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Newbie here, new to the forums, and newly back to this game after missing out on keywords like "hunter".
I'm no newbie to gaming, however, and I've seen this before: Escalation of playing piece power, banning of certain "broken" characters, retirement of sets from tournament play, and evolution/replacement of entire factions. What game was that? Wizkids' Mechwarrior Dark Age. Eventually, this game flatlined, expansions were canceled, and tournament support (AKA prize support) dried up just when I was getting interested again. When other WK games suffered as well, the company was eventually bought out by Topps. To some degree, WK suffered from (or got on the wrong side of) the secondary market.
All along, players complained about these directions that the company was taking, and accused them of money-grabbing, but now I see that it may be unavoidable: Can a collectible game really stay popular and financially viable indefinitely? Probably not without somehow alienating the original fan base; those vocal inhabitants of message boards like these.
Sort of off-topic of LotR history, yet at the same time back on-topic of the gaming industry.
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Newbie here, new to the forums, and newly back to this game after missing out on keywords like "hunter".
I'm no newbie to gaming, however, and I've seen this before: Escalation of playing piece power, banning of certain "broken" characters, retirement of sets from tournament play, and evolution/replacement of entire factions. What game was that? Wizkids' Mechwarrior Dark Age. Eventually, this game flatlined, expansions were canceled, and tournament support (AKA prize support) dried up just when I was getting interested again. When other WK games suffered as well, the company was eventually bought out by Topps. To some degree, WK suffered from (or got on the wrong side of) the secondary market.
All along, players complained about these directions that the company was taking, and accused them of money-grabbing, but now I see that it may be unavoidable: Can a collectible game really stay popular and financially viable indefinitely? Probably not without somehow alienating the original fan base; those vocal inhabitants of message boards like these.
Sort of off-topic of LotR history, yet at the same time back on-topic of the gaming industry.
I dunno... Magic is still going strong.
It's one of those things that will always be tricky. If a game goes long enough, rotation will be inevitable I think, unless they build into the system itself a sort of rotation (as Privateer Press seems to have with Monsterpocalyse). You think the companies would learn that you don't need to do increasingly powerful cards, just something that's different. Compare King & Siege with Mt Doom for example. ;)
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Good points. Once they start down the road of "power-creep", it's hard to turn around.
An alternative to black-box costing formulas were the structured "constructions tables" published by FASA for their Battletech and Star Trek games. These lead to the less-than-satisfying tradeoffs: "if you want that extra machine gun, you have to eliminate .5 tons of armor."
As for me, I'm only back into a game with randomized-packaging as a business model because it is no longer necessary to pay full retail. Keeping up with Decipher and WK in their prime was discouraging. This has no doubt been hashed out before, too.
Off-topic again, sorry. I will diminish, and go into the West. And then go buy a few more ROS starters for just $5.50 each.
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Off-topic again, sorry. I will diminish, and go into the West. And then go buy a few more ROS starters for just $5.50 each.
:O Where?
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Off-topic again, sorry. I will diminish, and go into the West. And then go buy a few more ROS starters for just $5.50 each.
Yes, I too need some Rise of Saruman starters.
:O Where?
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PLEASE TELL US! So we can give you free cards in exchange. Teehee. :P
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They're longer available for retail sale from my local store, though I'll eventually make them available for resale. Shortly after posting the above, I bought all 9 of them, and opened them all. Some good pulls.
Interesting situation: These had been displayed near the cashier for years, and the sales of the LotR product here have been stagnant, even with mark-down. However, I happened to be there during a lunch break this week, when I overheard the store-keeper field telephone questions about LotR card availability. This motivated me to purchase the starters immediately; and trading motivated me to open them.
At the same time, I also overheard that they 'unearthed' a sealed Rise of Saruman booster box, which I snapped up as well. I hope the caller didn't drive far looking for it.
This store had plenty of Hunters-block product until recently, and they didn't know the value of it.
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Anytime I see a random card or gaming store, I always pull off the road and go in... just in case =)
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I wish I could do that, I don't even think we have dedicated gaming/card stores in my area. ARe there any chains or names you guys think i should search for in Yelp? Unless any of you live near Laurel, Maryland that is :).
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Another person near DC! We really do need to get an event together around here...
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I just found an old article from the RotK era of the Decipher website that sheds some humorous light on how ridiculous the game got from Shadows on. Here's the link: http://decipher.ruddog.com/content/2003/09/092303lotrrotksnider.html.
The part I'm referring to is the part about the Evil Men culture. I quote:
"Easterlings, Southrons, and Dunlendings were all the same culture: Evil Men. This made for some really wacky combos, and some very complicated 'limited play' choices."
Though it was interesting on how even D thought it was a crazy idea when it first came up.
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I just found an old article from the RotK era of the Decipher website that sheds some humorous light on how ridiculous the game got from Shadows on. Here's the link: http://decipher.ruddog.com/content/2003/09/092303lotrrotksnider.html.
The part I'm referring to is the part about the Evil Men culture. I quote:
"Easterlings, Southrons, and Dunlendings were all the same culture: Evil Men. This made for some really wacky combos, and some very complicated 'limited play' choices."
Though it was interesting on how even D thought it was a crazy idea when it first came up.
Faelach, I'm sending you my medical bills for splitting open my sides from laughter.
My favorite quote was:
"Many Gondor-generated effects made minions roaming all the time, not just while they were in a skirmish. This made certain cards from Fellowship of the Ring (like What Are They?) extremely problematic. "
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I only got halfway through reading this thread, but I had some points I wanted to make.
The reset at Shadows was, by Decipher's own account, necessary because they no longer had access to enough still-frames to give each shadow culture enough minions and verbs. Their testimony was that if new cultures were introduced, they'd be able to recycle some older card images and keep the cultures going.
That, as it turned out, was a load of crock. For your enjoyment, here is a breakdown of *new* images that Decipher used throughout sets 11-19 that could easily have been fit into the older shadow cultures. I even broke it all down into subcultures where the images appeared to fit, just to better illustrate that at no time were any of these themes in danger of "running out of images."
Dunland - 53
Isengard, Men - 15
Isengard, Orcs - 12
Isengard, Trackers - 27
Isengard, Uruks - 91
Isengard, Wargs - 16
Moria, Goblins - 30
Raider, Corsair - 9
Raider, Easterling - 20
Raider, Southron - 40
Sauron, Besiegers - 20
Sauron, Orcs - 18
Sauron, Trackers - 17
Sauron, Trolls - 7
Sauron, Uruks - 2
Wraith, Orcs - 20
Other (Bree, Mouth of Sauron, Barrow-wights) - 21
I didn't even use all of the cards. I skipped right over some of the lesser-quality images, or ones that are sort of similar to other cards we already got in sets 1-10.
There was just no reason to group shadow cultures based on race. The Wraith culture only ever got 6 non-Nazgul cards, and they were in a special set of their own - after Battle of Helm's Deep, we never saw more Dead Marshes cards. The Uruk culture was all about the Uruks of Isengard with exception only to 2 cards, which were the sole representatives of the Uruks of Cirith Ungol in post-Mount Doom sets. If I recall correctly, Decipher's chief concern was that cultures like Dunland and Moria wouldn't be properly supported; obviously that was not true. The Men culture is absolutely awash with really nice, striking pictures of Dunlendings, and they had a plethora of goblin images that ended up getting lost in the bland, pointless Orc culture.
Even underrepresented subcultures would have been fine with a little ingenuity. Isengard Men could have received all of those Bree-men cards. The trackers of various cultures could have been made to work together; same with trolls.
The only weak parts here are the Corsairs and [Sauron] Uruks, but since they were pretty much one-off niche subcultures, would anybody have thrown a fit? I highly doubt it.
No, what the 'reset' shadow cultures illustrates, painfully, is that Decipher could not design new, alternative and creative strategies for the existing cultures, and had to resort to a gimmick to keep things moving along. The cards that came out in the new cultures were boring and unimaginative, and were only different due to the slightly-shifted coloration of their templates.
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Nice post Menace! The breakdown is super interesting, thanks for looking into it. I agree with you on the stupidity of the culture reset. Huge mistake that really hurt the game, imo.
Great job!
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Amen. Amen. Amen. I had actually never heard the "image reasoning" for the reset, but found that interesting none the less. :up:
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I totally agree. When I think about building a shadow deck of post-movie block cards, I choose cards based on the old cultures to give the deck an "even theme feel", if you know what I mean.