The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: Sam, Great Elf Warrior on April 16, 2010, 02:11:31 PM
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If a White Hand Scout (3-vitality) is skirmishing an exhausted Isildur, BoH who is bearing Coat of Mail and wearing The One Ring (so he can't be wounded to death), and the shadow player plays Final Triumph, is Isildur saved by Coat of Mail (because his strength wasn't tripled)?
In other words, when Final Triumph is played, what is the effect of Coat of Mail? Is it:
1) The Man cannot be overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled (for Coat of Mail) and his vitality is doubled (for normal overwhelm), because Coat of Mail specifically requires that the bearer's strength be tripled.
2) The Man cannot be overwhelmed unless his vitality is tripled, because Final Triumph changes Coat of Mail 's effect from strength to vitality (unlikely considering it doesn't do this for pumps).
3) The Man can be overwhelmed as long as his vitality is doubled, because Coat of Mail has no effect on skirmishes that are resolved using vitality.
4) The Man cannot be overwhelmed at all, because Coat of Mail keeps him from being overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled, but Final Triumph keeps strength from being compared to the minion's strength at all.
I'm leaning towards 1, because there's no reason why Coat of Mail shouldn't have its normal effect even where strength doesn't resolve the skirmish. If The Tale of the Great Ring can keep a companion from being overwhelmed in a skirmish where no shadow event was played, despite the fact that skirmishes are not resolved based on the number of events played, Coat of Mail should be able to keep a companion from being overwhelmed in a skirmish where his strength wasn't tripled, even if that skirmish wasn't resolved based on strength. I also see no reason why a companion's strength can't be tripled (option 4) just because the skirmish isn't resolved using strength (you can still compare stats, even when they aren't used for resolving the skirmish).
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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The answer is 3. Final Triumph changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish, so any modifiers to strength no longer apply. Only vitality modifiers now affect the resolution.
In your example, Isildur would be overwhelmed.
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The answer is 3. Final Triumph changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish, so any modifiers to strength no longer apply. Only vitality modifiers now affect the resolution.
In your example, Isildur would be overwhelmed.
So then you view Coat of Mail as a strength modifier, and not as an adding a requirement for overwhelming (like The Tale of the Great Ring), correct?
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No. Coat of mail is not a strength modifier (it doesn't actually change the strength of the character), it would be in the same category as The Tale of The Great Ring.
The thing is once final triumph is played none of that matters. TheJord has it right.
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So The Tale of The Great Ring wouldn't work against Final Triumph either?
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It should still work.
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The Tale of the Great Ring can't work because Final Triumph is an event played during skirmish.
I have another question, though, related to the TToTGR:
Frodo is skirmishing an exhausted Gollum who is going to overwhelm him and plays PATH; Gollum prevents the wound with Sweeter Meats. Can TToTGR still have effect? Sweeter Meats is a response event but TToTGR doesn't say it has to be a skirmish event, just a shadow event played during that skirmish.
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Any shadow event played during the skirmish phase would would cancel its effect. Doesn't matter if it's a response.
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ok here's a related question, let's say i have an exhausted gandalf skirmishing white hand scout, i pass the first action and the shadow player plays a final triumph, i then play one last surprise, is the skirmish resolved as my resistance against his vitality? or for that scenario to happen would i need to play one last surprise first and the shadow player plays final triumph second?
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The resistance would be used instead of his strength, but since final triumph has overruled the strength, OLS has no effect... I think. :-k
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ok here's a related question, let's say i have an exhausted gandalf skirmishing white hand scout, i pass the first action and the shadow player plays a final triumph, i then play one last surprise, is the skirmish resolved as my resistance against his vitality? or for that scenario to happen would i need to play one last surprise first and the shadow player plays final triumph second?
I don't think the rules are clear on this, but the part I'm looking at is the "instead of" phrasing. I interpret this to mean that in order for the card to take effect, the character must currently be using the value the effect says to replace. So that gives:
Final Triumph / OLS: companion's vitality vs. minion's vitality - OLS fails to take effect because when it's played, neither character is using strength to resolve that skirmish.
OLS / Final Triumph: Gandalf's resistance vs. minion's vitality - Final Triumph takes partial effect (perform as much as you can) because when it's played, only the minion is using strength to resolve that skirmish.
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As for the situation with Coat of Mail... heh, the last attempt at a rulings document here ended on this note (well, Bounder is close enough). I'll have to think about this.
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So The Tale of The Great Ring wouldn't work against Final Triumph either?
Wanted to say the same as hrco!
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Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
it seems to me that the coat of mail's effect is not diminished. it has two separate parts: 1)Effect (bearer may not be overwhelmed) and 2)Cost (minion's strength is less than triple the bearer's). If put into these terms, cost and effect, which have already been extensively debated on, it would seem that the bearer (Isildur) would be invincible to overwhelming unless his strength were tripled. Coat of Mail's effect does not in any way affect the outcome of skirmishes, only the definition of overwhelming. Another card changed the way the skirmish resolution is calculated, but overwhelming remains untouched....even if his vitality were tripled, he could not be overwhelmed unless his strength was tripled, also. So, even if it were a vitality - 10 minion against Isildur's 1, he could not be overwhelmed unless his strength proper were tripled also.
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TelTura, I think you're right.
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Coat of Mail isnt a cost/effect card. It prevents a certain situation from occuring, like how Rallying Cry stops the FP removing threats. However, the situation it prevents can no longer occur because strength is no longer a factor in the outcome of the skirmish.
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I'm also with teltara on this one. Coat of mail completely creates a new condition for overwhelming, namely that the strength must be tripled. Therefor, I would say he isn't overwhelmed.
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Coat of Mail isnt a cost/effect card. It prevents a certain situation from occuring, like how Rallying Cry stops the FP removing threats. However, the situation it prevents can no longer occur because strength is no longer a factor in the outcome of the skirmish.
So how do you distinguish this from The Tale of the Great Ring? The way I see it:
The Tale of the Great Ring works like this:
- Restricted Action: The targeted Hobbit is prevented from being overwhelmed, unless
- Added Requirement: A Shadow event is (or was) played during this skirmish.
This is despite the fact that Shadow events being played are not the basis on which skirmishes are resolved.
Coat of Mail works like this:
- Restricted Action: Bearer cannot be overwhelmed, unless
- Added Requirement: His strength is tripled.
So presumably, this should also work despite the fact that strength is not the basis on which the skirmish in question is resolved.
Or are you reading Coat of Mail to say "The overwhelming requirement is raised from doubling to tripling for skirmishes resolved on the basis of strength"?
Thanks for your input, everyone, by the way. I think it seems intuitively like Coat of Mail shouldn't work, but I really don't know how to distinguish Coat of Mail in this situation from The Tale of the Great Ring, since both add an overwhelm requirement that is different from the stat that is used for resolving the skirmish.
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the tale of the great ring wouldn't matter in a final triumph situation because final triumph is an event, I'm with teltura.
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Coat of Mail isnt a cost/effect card. It prevents a certain situation from occuring, like how Rallying Cry stops the FP removing threats. However, the situation it prevents can no longer occur because strength is no longer a factor in the outcome of the skirmish.
But with com it is a factor again.
Bearer must be a Man. Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his or her strength is tripled.
He can not be overwhelmed unless the strength is tripled. As Final triumph resolves the skirmish on vitality the bearer of com can't be overwhelmed, because he may not be overwhelmed unless strength is trippled. Final triumph becomes useless for overwhelming.
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Whether or not you are using strength to determine the outcome of a skirmish (a.k.a., Final Triumph), you do have to look at strength to see if a companion is overwhelmed with Heavy Chain or Coat of Mail or Bounder or anything else of that sort.
-wtk
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The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish ... Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.
Final Triumph removes strength from the resolution.
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The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish ... Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.
Final Triumph removes strength from the resolution.
But does Coat of Mail alter the resolution, or does it add a requirement for overwhelming (similar to The Tale of the Great Ring)? It seems to me that it adds an additional requirement. If Final Triumph wasn't an event, The Tale of the Great Ring would work, so why won't Coat of Mail?
Similarly, wouldn't Armor keep a companion from taking more than one wound from losing a skirmish involving Final Triumph, even though Armor doesn't directly affect vitality?
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The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish ... Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.
Final Triumph removes strength from the resolution.
Exactly and that's the same reason why bearer of com can't be overwhelmed, because his strength can't be trippled!
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His strength no longer matters, and Coat of Mail prevents overwhelms against the usual double strength, but strength is no longer factored into the resolution.
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... and Coat of Mail prevents overwhelms against the usual double strength, but strength is no longer factored into the resolution.
but the question remains, can he be overwhelmed? Coat of Mail does not read, "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless the factor being used to calculate the skirmish is tripled by the opponent", it simply says, "unless his strength is tripled".
His strength no longer matters....
I think that's our main problem here. Your argument seems to assume that Final Triumph makes every card that references strength to be moot, and I don't think that's the case. If there were another card that said something like "While bearer is strength 6 or higher..." I think its effects would still be in play, even though the skirmish no longer relies on it for its consummation.
even though it's not a strict Cost/Effect event or ability, I still think the terminology is useful. There is a cost of sorts....the strength must not be tripled. And if that cost is fulfilled, then the effect is in play....bearer may not be overwhelmed. I think rewording Coat of Mail like this would be the exact same thing:
"While a skirmishing minion's strength is less than triple bearer's, bearer may not be overwhelmed."
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From the notes:
The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played. Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.
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From the notes:
The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played. Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.
We don't question the resolvement of the skirmish. We say: Okay you win, but as you can not tripple the strength you're not able to overwhelm; so just a wound.
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If you read the notes, you would have noticed that it said none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played.
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I agree with Lurtzy. Although One Last Surprise still might negate the effect of Final Triumph... Depending on the order they are played maybe..
I also think that should Armor vs Final Triumph and the companion survives, he should take no more than one wound. (Although I think that part is pretty clear).
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If you read the notes, you would have noticed that it said none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played.
you'll also note that CoM and other similar actions don't have an effect on strength, rather, they have an effect that is based on strength. There's a significant difference between the two.
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If you read the notes, you would have noticed that it said none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played.
you'll also note that CoM and other similar actions don't have an effect on strength, rather, they have an effect that is based on strength. There's a significant difference between the two. The resolution, it seems to me (but I admit I need to look a little closer for the "official" meaning) is where both players pass and it is determined that one side wins and the other loses. It would then be determined the number of wounds to place, or, if one side overwhelms the other. The resolution is not hindered, the only question is whether wounds or overwhelming are the penalty, and unless the strength proper is tripled, I'd think only wounds could be placed.
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The functionality of Coat of Mail is to prevent overwhelms against double strength. Final Triumph overrides this functionality.
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This is one case where I'd really like to know what the designer intended, not least being what "to resolve that skirmish" covers. Several parts fall under this heading in the rulebook: determining the skirmish winner, determining whether losing characters are overwhelmed, placing wounds, and resolving all actions triggered by winning or losing the skirmish.
My take is to treat a character as using a resolution attribute when resolving a skirmish, the default of which is strength, and then for the rulebook to compare the values of these attributes:
"If the total [resolution value] of one side is more than the [resolution value] of the other side (but less than double), the side with the most [resolution value] wins that skirmish.
If the total [resolution value] of one side is at least double the total [resolution value] of the other side, all the characters on the losing side are overwhelmed and killed (regardless of how many wounds or how much vitality each has)."
Essentially this defines what a card means when it says to resolve a skirmish using a new attribute.
I'd treat Coat of Mail then as tacking on new check to the skirmish resolution, meaning in the situation with Final Triumph, its bearer cannot be overwhelmed unless both his strength is tripled and his vitality is doubled.
IMO the CRD entry on Final Triumph seems to be going overboard on the resolution--it'd knock out a CoM clone using vitality, since this clone would neither increase nor decrease vitality directly--but I'm not sure about its scope, as has been previously brought up.
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The functionality of Coat of Mail is to prevent overwhelms against double strength. Final Triumph overrides this functionality.
This is what I've been trying to warn people about in the DC threads... functionality and intent aren't really important, the way things are phrased is important.
Let's forget Coat of Mail, let's look at one of my all time favorite cards:
Boromir, Lord of Gondor
His text is:
Boromir is not overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled.
How would Final Triumph work here?
Well vitality resolves the skirmish.
If victor's vit was double Boromir's, would he be overwhelmed?
The ruling on FT says:
The effect of this card changes the requirements
for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the
cards that previously had an effect on strength
during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish
in which this card is played. Only cards or effects
that increase or decrease vitality directly would
alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this
card was played.
However, Boromir's text does not have any effect on strength or skirmish resolution. He just says 1 thing: "Cannot be overwhelmed" If there was any sort of way to overwhelm a companion outside of a skirmish phase, he would still be immune to it. He doesn't have any effect on skirmish resolution, he just has a "can't" effect (which I recall, always overrides can).
So it'd work like this:
Final Triumph is played.
Vitality resolves skirmish - Uruk has 4 to Boromir's 2.
Skirmish resolution, take passage from the rule book and replace every instance of "strength" with "vitality" for determining.
According to rules, Boromir is overwhelmed.
Boromir's text prevents overwhelming unless his strength is tripled.
Uruk does not triple Boromir's strength, Boromir is not overwhelmed.
EDIT: I meant to add, Final Triumph is specified to NOT suddenly apply strength bonuses etc to vitality. So if you play a Dagger Strike in the example above after Final Triumph, you're not suddenly going to give Boromir +2 vitality. If those cards do not transfer from one stat to another, why would any other card do so?
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The functionality of Coat of Mail is to prevent overwhelms against double strength. Final Triumph overrides this functionality.
This is what I've been trying to warn people about in the DC threads... functionality and intent aren't really important, the way things are phrased is important.
Let's forget Coat of Mail, let's look at one of my all time favorite cards:
Boromir, Lord of Gondor
His text is:
Boromir is not overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled.
How would Final Triumph work here?
Well vitality resolves the skirmish.
If victor's vit was double Boromir's, would he be overwhelmed?
The ruling on FT says:
The effect of this card changes the requirements
for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the
cards that previously had an effect on strength
during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish
in which this card is played. Only cards or effects
that increase or decrease vitality directly would
alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this
card was played.
However, Boromir's text does not have any effect on strength or skirmish resolution. He just says 1 thing: "Cannot be overwhelmed" If there was any sort of way to overwhelm a companion outside of a skirmish phase, he would still be immune to it. He doesn't have any effect on skirmish resolution, he just has a "can't" effect (which I recall, always overrides can).
So it'd work like this:
Final Triumph is played.
Vitality resolves skirmish - Uruk has 4 to Boromir's 2.
Skirmish resolution, take passage from the rule book and replace every instance of "strength" with "vitality" for determining.
According to rules, Boromir is overwhelmed.
Boromir's text prevents overwhelming unless his strength is tripled.
Uruk does not triple Boromir's strength, Boromir is not overwhelmed.
EDIT: I meant to add, Final Triumph is specified to NOT suddenly apply strength bonuses etc to vitality. So if you play a Dagger Strike in the example above after Final Triumph, you're not suddenly going to give Boromir +2 vitality. If those cards do not transfer from one stat to another, why would any other card do so?
Exactly!
But how would this work for:
Bounder
Severed his bonds (in case people play with tt-sites)
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Exactly!
But how would this work for:
Bounder
Severed his bonds (in case people play with tt-sites)
(I could swear there was a topic addressing this on Decipher briefly)
I'd say it'd work the same.
Final Triumph - double vitality == overwhelm.
Those cards say, "prevent overwhelming" with a condition. So you'd have to fulfill that condition.
Think of it this way. Normally the conditions are: twice strength overwhelm, this is intrinsic to the rules. All these cards say, "no, you can't overwhelm unless ___". Now usually, the ___ just happens to coincide with the same conditions that are intrinsic to the game but that doesn't change the fact that they create a new 'can't' which must be overcome.
Let's propose a hypothetical. Shadow player plays a card, "Overwhelm companion skirmishing {something} minion who's resistance is 0." This creates a new way to overwhelm a companion. However, Boromir, Bounder, etc specifically say "cannot" or "prevent" overwhelming unless ___. Since can't always overrides can, the new card would have no effect unless you overcame the "can't" cards.
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I cant agree with this. Coat of Mail provides protection from the intrinsic overwhelm. Final Triumph overrides that intrinsic rule by nullifying strength.
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I cant agree with this. Coat of Mail provides protection from the intrinsic overwhelm. Final Triumph overrides that intrinsic rule by nullifying strength.
Incorrect, Coat of Mail, Boromir, et al provide protection from overwhelming PERIOD as phrased.
As I said, if we had a hypothetical card that explicit said, "overwhelm companion if {condition}", these cards would over ride those because they say plainly: "cannot overwhelm".
EDIT: I should add, if you and your pals want to play the cards as "bearer cannot be overwhelmed unless the value used to determine the skirmish of the victor is twice the value used by the loser is triple." Great, all well and good. But otherwise, as the cards are phrased, can't overrides can.
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you know what the funny thing is? the only situation you would ever see this in is Expanded and who plays final triumph in expanded??? it's all Madril Rangers and Demoralized
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True, this is another Helpless on RB Sam situation.
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you know what the funny thing is? the only situation you would ever see this in is Expanded and who plays final triumph in expanded???
Or in Open ;)
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you know what the funny thing is? the only situation you would ever see this in is Expanded and who plays final triumph in expanded???
Or in Open ;)
One of these days I would LOVE to drop a Final Triumph on a Cirden for a win. Oh how I grew to hate him...
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This seems clear to me. If vitality is being used to resolve a skirmish 'instead' of something else we would replace each instance of that something else in the rules concerning "Resolve that skirmish." The clarifications on Final Triumph itself and the CRD are to 'make clear' that all the other strength effects/affects are NOT to be replaced by vitality effects/affects as that is reserved for the "Resolve that skirmish" step of that particular skirmish phase. Overwhelming strictly occurs in the "Resolve that skirmish" step.
I believe that ALL modifiers to the overwhelm requirements would apply to a skirmish being resolved by vitality.