The Last Homely House

Middle-Earth => Chamber of Mazarbul => Topic started by: Thranduil on April 22, 2010, 05:25:48 PM

Title: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: Thranduil on April 22, 2010, 05:25:48 PM
[Sauron] THE GREAT EYE DESIGN SKELETON [Sauron]


Card IDNotes #1            Notes #2            Notes #3
*RC01RR                        
*RR01Twilight ring                        
DWC01Gimli            Recursion?            
DWC02Companion            fellowship draw            
DWC03Companion                        
DWC04Possession            weapon            culture tokens
DWC05Condition            tale            resistance
DWC06Event            search/tale            pump
DWU01Companion                        
DWU02Companion                        
DWU03Condition            tale            
DWU04Event            search            card draw
DWU05Event            maneuver            wounding
DWR01Companion            Gimli            Friend to Legolas, alliance, culture tokens
DWR02Companion                        
DWR03Possession            armour            resistance
DWR04Condition                        
ELC01Companion            Legolas            archery
ELC02Companion                        
ELC03Companion                        
ELC04Possession            bow            resistance?
ELC05Condition            tale            resistance
ELC06Event            spell/stealth            pump
ELU01Companion                        
ELU02Companion                        
ELU03Condition                        
ELU04Event            stealth            reveal
ELU05Event            spell            healing
ELR01Companion            Legolas            
ELR02Companion                        
ELR03Artifact            Mirror of Galadriel            
ELR04Condition                        
ELR05Event            archery            
GAC01Companion            Gandalf            
GAC02Companion                        
GAC03Companion                        
GAC04Condition            tale            resistance
GAC05Event            spell            pump
GAC06Event            search            condition discard
GAU01Companion                        
GAU02Companion                        
GAU03Condition            pipeweed            
GAU04Event            Like QtNA / RaLL            
GAU05Event                        
GAR01Companion            Gandalf            
GAR02Companion                        
GAR03Artifact            Palantír? Staff? Narya?            
GAR04Condition                        
GAR05Event                        
GFC01Companion            Sméagol            stealth/Ring
GAC02Condition                        resistance
GFC03Event            stealth            pump
GFC04Event            stealth            sites/move limit
GFU01Condition            twilight            Ring
GFU02Condition                        
GFU03Event                        
GFU04Event                        
GFR01Companion            Sméagol            stealth/Ring
GFR02Condition                        wounding
GFR03Event            twilight            Ring
GSC01Minion            Gollum            search/Ring
GSC02Minion            condition            resistance
GSC03Event            search            move limit
GSC04Event            search            pump
GSU01Condition            twilight            Ring
GSU02Condition                        
GSU03Event                        
GFU04Event                        
GSR01Minion            Gollum            search/Ring
GSR02Condition                        
GSR03Event                        
GSR04Event                        
GOC01Companion            Aragorn            
GOC02Companion            Faramir            
GOC03Companion                        
GOC04Possession            weapon            
GOC05Possession            armour            
GOC06Condition            tale/fortification            resistance
GOC06Event            stealth            pump
GOU01Companion            Denethor            
GOU02Companion            Boromir            
GOU03Companion                        
GOU04Possession            cloak            stealth
GOU05Condition            fotification            
GOU06Companion            Condition            
GOU07Event            Like Pathfinder            
GOR01Companion            Aragorn            
GOR02Companion                        
GOC03Artifact            Seeing Stone of MA            
GOR04Artifact            Andúril            
GOR05Condition                        culture tokens
GOR06Event                        
GOS01Companion            Faramir            Starter
ISC01Minion            Uruk            army
ISC02Minion            Orc            
ISC03Minion            Man            
ISC04Minion            Saruman            
ISC05Condition            engine/weather            resistance
ISC06Event            spell            pump
ISU01Minion            Uruk            
ISU02Minion            Orc            army - Warg-riders?
ISU03Minion            !Gríma            
ISU04Event            spell/weather            condition discard
ISR01Minion            Saruman            
ISR02Minion            Uruk/Orc            general, search
ISR03Artifact            Palantír of Orthanc            
ISR04Event            weather            
MEC01Minion            Dunland            
MEC02Minion            Corsair            
MEC03Minion            Southron            
MEC04Minion            Easterling            army
MEC05Possession            weapon            
MEC05Condition            engine            resistance
MEC07Event            search            pump
MEU01Minion            Dunland            army
MEU02Minion            Bree            
MEU03Minion            Southron            
MEU04Minion            Easterling            
MEU05Possession            ship?            
MEU01Event                        
MER01Minion            Corsair            army
MER02Minion            Southron            
MER03Minion            Easterling            
MER04Condition                        
MER06Event                        
ORC01Minion            Moria            army
ORC02Minion            Moria            
ORC03Minion            Isengard            
ORC04Minion            Mordor            
ORC05Possession            weapon            
ORC06Condition            search            resistance
ORC07Event            search            resistance
ORU01Minion            Moria            
ORU02Minion            Isengard            army
ORU03Minion            Mordor            
ORU04Minion            Mordor            
ORU04Condition            engine            
ORU06Condition                        
ORU07Event            Like Hate?            
ORR01Minion            Moria            Balrog? Troll?
ORR02Minion            Mordor            army
ORR03Minion            Mordor            general
ORR04Possession            support area            culture tokens
ORR05Condition            Like Goblin Armories?            
ORR06Event                        
ROC01Companion            Éomer            
ROC02Companion                        
ROC03Companion                        
ROC04Possession            weapon            
ROC05Possession            horse            
ROC06Condition            fortification            resistance
ROC07Event                        pump
ROU01Companion            Gamling?            
ROU02Companion                        
ROU03Companion                        
ROU04Possession            javelin/helm            
ROU05Condition                        
ROU06Event                        possession discard
ROR01Companion            Théoden            
ROR02Companion                        
ROR03Possession            Herugrim? Firefoot?            
ROR04Condition                        culture tokens
ROR05Event                        move limit
ROR06Event            search            fetching
ROS01Companion            Éomer            Starter
SAC01Minion            Orc            
SAC02Minion            Orc            
SAC01Minion            Uruk            
SAC04Minion            Troll/Orc            army
SAC05Condition            engine            resistance
SAC06Event            spell            pump
SAU01Minion            Orc            
SAU02Minion            Troll            
SAU03Minion            Man            search/Ring
SAU04Condition                        
SAC05Event                        
SAR01Minion            Man/Troll            Ring?
SAR02Minion            Sauron, The Great Eye            Ring
SAR03Condition                        culture tokens
SAR04Event                        
SHC01Companion            Frodo            
SHC01Companion            Sam            
SHC03Companion                        
SHC04Possession            Like Hobbit Sword            
SHC05Condition            tale            resistance
SHC06Event            stealth            pump
SHU01Companion            Merry            
SHU02Companion            Pippin            
SHU03Condition                        
SHU04Event            stealth            reveal
SHU05Event            twilight            Ring
SHR01Companion            Frodo            
SHR02Companion            Sam            
SHR03Condition                        culture tokens
SHR04Event                        
UHC01Minion            tracker            
UHC02Minion            tracker            army
UHC03Minion            besieger            
UHC04Possession            weapon            
UHC05Condition            search            resistance
UHC05Event            search            pump
UHU01Minion            besieger            army
UHU02Minion            besieger            
UHU03Minion            tracker            
UHU04Condition                        
UHU05Event                        
UHR01Minion            tracker            
UHR02Minion            besieger            
UHR03Possession                        
UHR04Condition                        culture tokens
UHR05Event                        mass discard
WAC01Minion            Witch-King            
WAC02Minion            Lemenya            
WAC03Minion            Nelya            
WAC04Minion            Nertëa            
WAC05Condition                        
WAC06Condition            spell            resistance, MEGA BREATH!
WAC07Event            search            
WAU01Minion            Otsëa            twilight love
WAU02Minion            Cantëa            
WAU03Minion            Enquëa            Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight?
WAU04Minion            Toldëa            assignment
WAU05Condition                        search/His Terrible Servants?
WAU06Event            twilight            Ring
WAU07Event            search            
WAR01Minion            Witch-King, Lord of the Twilight            Return to Its Master on a stick
WAR02Minion            Attëa            
WAR03Possession            Like Fell Beast            or should this be the army slot (Dol Guldur?)
WAR04Artifact            Ithil Stone            
WAR05Condition            weather?            culture tokens
WAR06Event                        
XSC01(0)                        
XSC02[1]                        
XSC03[2]                        
XSC04[3]                        
XSU01(0)                        
XSU02[1]                        
XSU03[2]                        
XSU04[3]                        
XSU05(0)                        
XSR01[3]                        
XSS01(0)                        
XSS02(0)                        
XSS03[1]                        
XSS04[1]                        
XSS05[2]                        
XSS06[2]                        
XSS07[3]                        
XSS08[3]                        
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project - Design Skeleton
Post by: Thranduil on April 22, 2010, 05:44:57 PM
Some points to make on the design skeleton:

CODE
You may have noticed the code is 2 letters, followed by a letter, followed by 2 digits. This works like:

2 letters        letter           2 digits
Culture          rarity          no. of card in that culture at that rarity

I'm using *R for [Ring] so that it always appears at the top, and similarly XS for sites to be at the end.

The other abbreviations are as follows:

DW - [dwarven]
EL - [elven]
GA - [gandalf]
GF - [gollum] FP
GS - [gollum] SH
GO - [gondor]
IS - [Isengard]
ME - [Men]
OR - [Orc]
!RO - [Rohan]
SA - [Sauron]
SH - [Shire]
UH - [uruk]
WA - [Wraith]


and for the 1 letter:

C - common
U - uncommon
R - rare
S - starter


SUMMARY OF SET
• There are 250 cards. 10S, 90C, 80U, 70R.

• The percentage of characters is ~ 50%, slightly under for FP and slightly over for SH (notable exception being the [Gollum] culture for obvious reasons).

• I have left off allies/followers. I kind of decided we didn't need to go into that murky depth here.

• I have not included any dual culture cards as a separate entry. For the moment, we've been talking about not changing the template, and so they will be in their template entries.




HOW TO USE THIS SKELETON
Step 1 - Filling in the Skeleton
The first job is to fill out as much of the skeleton as possible with vague ideas on what the card in that slot is going to look like. In general, what I've done is:

• notes #1: type (or Shadow number for sites)
• notes #2: sub-type/keyword/title
• notes #3: content

so keeping roughly to that makes it very clear.

Of course, while we are filling out the skeleton, it is the job of all us designers to also do step 2.


Step 2 - Submitting the cards
We can all submit cards in this thread. When you submit a card, you should make sure to do the following:

1) identify its card ID.
2) post your idea
3) everyone reviews the idea (it's important to not retain too much of an ownership of card you design - this is a GROUP project after all, and so you have to be much more prepared to listen to other people than you might be in your own set (this is a lesson I have to learn most of all! ;) )).
4) if it passes design, it gets submitted to the "file" at which point I will add its details to the skeleton so we can keep track of what's going on.


At first, card title and lore are not so important. Focus on overall concept and flavour.

Titles, lore and balance will be sorted out in a second wave of reviewing.





INFORMATION
In the other thread (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4575.msg52729.html#msg52729), I posted a list of each culture's strengths in a 3 tiered system. The design skeleton is to help us make sure that the strengths of a particular culture are emphasised enough.


We also need to bear in mind the sets themes. They are (succinctly):

1) search/stealth (and to an extent, trackers and rangers, besiegers and knights)

2) twilight

3) The One Ring

4) culture matters (culture love, culture hate)

5) alliances (multiculture strategies, including dual culture cards - I think we're using culture keywords, and possibly the alliance keyword which you can also check out & discuss in the other thread)

6) burdens & resistance



Any more information about how this is going to work I'll post when I think of it! It is quite late now...

Any questions, just post below or ask me by PM. When I'm more awake, I'll also post some card ideas!
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project - Design Skeleton
Post by: Cw0rk on April 22, 2010, 08:53:04 PM
I think that there is too many companion cards. I do not think that we need to have 50% of characters for FP cards. If we really stick to 50%, there should be allies and/or followers.

There will be FP search cards? Did you get the idea from me or is it your original idea :P?

I've also seen a Ringwraith weather card. Sounds fun.
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project - Design Skeleton
Post by: chompers on April 23, 2010, 02:27:03 AM
No allies or followers?

Perhaps too many free people companions.

I had a look at dwarves breakdown:
15 cards - 7 companions (2 of which are Gimli), 3 cond, 3 event, 2 possessions).

FOTR breakdown whilst a bigger set was:
26 cards - 11 events, 4 companions, 4 possessions, 5 conditions and 2 allies.

I would drop a few companions and add ... perhaps ...
3 companions, 4 cond, 5 events, 3 possessions - no need for followers or allies or artifacts.

3 companions including:
* a new Gimli linked to Elves or Legolas
* a new non-unique dwarf

A new weapon for Gimli (perhaps linked to Elves or Legolas)
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: chompers on April 23, 2010, 03:28:54 AM
I like your changes to Gimli, particularly using the Alliance keyword. I worry about making cards too powerful. Is adding two tokens instead of one - every time you add a [dwarven] or [elven] token too powerful? This can add up - parfticularly in an Elven token deck.

Also can you explain recursion to me as listed in the design skeleton next to the common Gimli?

As for your Sauron - i worry that combat using resistance for the ringbearer and strength for a minion will lead to an easy auto win. Use Flames Within or Rank and File with Sauron to get him to strength 20 for auto Frodo overwhelm (provided he wears the One Ring). Even easier to overwhelm alternate ringbearers. Use Resistance Becomes Unbearable gets the Ringbearer to wear the One Ring. Perhaps this is a deck concept, but it seems pretty easy to full off. It definately fits the cross-culture theme with two or three cultures needed to get it to work.

Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: Thranduil on April 23, 2010, 03:36:39 AM
Quote from: chompers on April 23, 2010, 03:28:54 AM
I like your changes to Gimli, particularly using the Alliance keyword. I worry about making cards too powerful. Is adding two tokens instead of one - every time you add a [dwarven] or [elven] token too powerful? This can add up - parfticularly in an Elven token deck.
Yeah it could be good. Probably could come with another cost, like a resistance requirement?

Quote from: chompers on April 23, 2010, 03:28:54 AM
Also can you explain recursion to me as listed in the design skeleton next to the common Gimli?
Yeah sorry. Recursion means getting stuff back from the discard pile like Defending the Keep

Quote from: chompers on April 23, 2010, 03:28:54 AM
As for your Sauron - i worry that combat using resistance for the ringbearer and strength for a minion will lead to an easy auto win. Use Flames Within or Rank and File with Sauron to get him to strength 20 for auto Frodo overwhelm (provided he wears the One Ring). Even easier to overwhelm alternate ringbearers. Use Resistance Becomes Unbearable gets the Ringbearer to wear the One Ring. Perhaps this is a deck concept, but it seems pretty easy to full off. It definately fits the cross-culture theme with two or three cultures needed to get it to work.
Yeah indeed. The question we have to decide is whether the flavour is cool enough to try hard to make the card work in a balanced way, or whether we should do something else.

Thranduil
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: legolas3333 on April 23, 2010, 09:38:52 AM
I would change the "seeker" subtitles on all your wraiths, cause it makes them sound like they're from harry potter or something
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: simplegarak on April 23, 2010, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: legolas3333 on April 23, 2010, 09:38:52 AM
I would change the "seeker" subtitles on all your wraiths, cause it makes them sound like they're from harry potter or something

Well I meant it as a joke shout out to:
http://www.agonybooth.com/recaps/The_Seeker__The_Dark_is_Rising_2007.aspx

Think I should just call them "_th tracker"?  I almost did "_th hunter" until I remember previous sets.

Hmm... looking at:
http://thesaurus.com/browse/hunt

Oooo!  Inquisitor!  Then we can all say "Nobody expects the Nazgul inquisition!"


Quote from: Sam, Great Elf Warrior on April 23, 2010, 09:47:55 AM
This also edits the response action to make it more comparable to A Dark Shape Sprang.

By the way, how about this for a Pathfinder-like event:
(0) Hidden !Paths [gondor]
Event • Regroup
Stealth. Exert a ranger (or spot 3 rangers) to play the Fellowship's next site (except a dwelling or battleground site). If that site is a forest or river site, its shadow number is -2.
"'!Strider will take them on !paths seldom trodden.'"
COU07

This would also be useful in a joint [gondor] - [elven] deck.

Maybe make it -1 just to keep choke decks from getting too horrible.
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: Thranduil on April 23, 2010, 11:15:55 AM
As I was trying to fit on All Veils Removed, I just remembered the argument I made to myself about reprints. If nothing is going to rotate, do we need to reprint cards?

Also updated the skeleton somewhat. Mainly I've fit in a Fell Beast for WAR03 instead of the Dol Guldur army. Maybe we could make a !Dead Marshes army in [Sauron] instead?

I will deal with companion reduction another time.
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: Not a Zombie on April 24, 2010, 10:47:34 PM
one suggestion: put each culture in its own thread, otherwise we will never get the cards reviewed enough to finalize
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: chompers on April 25, 2010, 12:33:40 AM
I am struggling to keep up - either put each culture in its own thread or perhaps not make it all in on the whole set.

Perhaps we should talk [wraith] or whatever first - discuss what we want to achieve as far as strengths, strategies, combos, culture links, culture sticks or whatever. Then throw out some card ideas. It is too much when we post 15 cards at once. And even harder when we hit three cultures (so far) at once.

Just my 2cents.
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: simplegarak on April 25, 2010, 06:20:24 AM
I like seeking the 1 you posted there Thrandril.

Hang on, making some topics.  Does everyone want to copy/paste their thoughts in the new threads?
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: Thranduil on April 25, 2010, 05:17:41 PM
If you want to make some new topics, let me transfer it all (Mod powers ftw!). I'll post some links here in a bit.
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: Thranduil on April 25, 2010, 05:28:29 PM
Okay, so right now we have:

[wraith] (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4647.msg52843.html#msg52843)

[dwarven] (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4648.0.html)

[men] (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4650.0.html)

[sauron] (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,4649.0.html)


And I think that's enough for now.
Title: Re: TLHH DC Project: The Great Eye - Design Skeleton
Post by: chompers on April 25, 2010, 10:31:50 PM
agree - we don't have to tackle everything so quickly - it is hard to keep up - but it is keeping my interest