The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Chamber of Mazarbul => Topic started by: Cw0rk on June 15, 2010, 02:02:11 PM
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Here is a new idea I've had for a keyword. I'm not sure about the name I wanna give to it so you can suggest some. At the moment, I chose 'Abiding'.
Abiding: Minions with the Abiding keyword are not discarded at the end of the turn.
Between turns, you move it back to your support area and keep all the wounds and cards that it bears on it. Then, at the start of the next shadow phase you move it back into play.
I think that this keyword would fit very well for minions that appears to be immortal such as The Nazgul or Sauron, and even for minions that keeps comming back, no matter what you do such as Gollum.
Here is a quick look at what it could look like:
[1][8] •Sauron, The Immortal [Sauron]
Minion • Maia
Strength: 24
Vitality: 5
Site: 6
Abiding.
While you can spot a [Sauron] artifact, Sauron is fierce.
Basically, once you play him, which is hard at [1][8], he will stay there until he is killed.
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I feel like I'd rather conceptualise this as condition, like:
[1] Immortal Servants [Wraith]
Condition • Support Area
Regroup: If no card is stacked here, stack your Nazgûl from play here. Note the number of wounds that Nazgûl had.
Shadow: Put a Nazgûl stacked here into play (without paying its costs). It comes into play with the number of wounds noted.
Or as an event maybe:
[3] You Cannot Kill Them [Wraith]
Event • Regroup
Remove your Nazgûl minion and all cards it bears from the game, noting the number of wounds on that minion. At the start of your next Shadow phase, put that Nazgûl and all cards it bears into play (without paying their costs). It comes into play with the number of wounds noted.
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Maybe you could call it 'Lurker?'
-wtk
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That sounds familiar. :roll:
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I am not so sure this is the best for gameplay as it has the potential to rip many fellowships apart. They will be forced to take appropriate measures to counter it and this will reduce the scope of fellowship decks IMO.
The fellowship relies heavily on stopping to clear the table of minions they can't beat. If they hang around for the rest of the game, every fellowship will have to have a way to kill that minion, or avoid facing him repeatedly for the remainder of the game.
A Sauron with abiding played at site 2 would need to cost alot of shadow to even the playing field because you are potentially paying the cost up front to have that minion in play for the remainder of the game.
Either way .. it seems way over-powered to me.
The closest thing I can think of that reminds me of this concept is those conditions that turn into wizards .... but they still have a cost associated with them. Minions stacked on conditions or sites and deploy from them is also similar ... but again they attract a cost to redeploy.
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While the idea is very powerful, I don't see why it shouldn't be used, for a higher cost. There are a couple of ways this could be handled,
As a keyward (used in extreme limitedness)
As a special ability for a high cost
As a condition (with a high cost)
I think it would be best as a special ability, with each Nazgul having a different way for it to trigger.
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Indeed the idea is very powerful... but as Lurzty said, it can be used with a higher cost.
Even if the concept of The Irresistible Shadow is powerful, it's cost makes it alright.
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Even if the concept of The Irresistible Shadow is powerful, it's cost makes it alright.
Similarly, it will be very difficult to make this idea playable while not making it overpowered. It should apply only to unique characters, and you should have to pay some cost to make them fight. It would be kind of cool to have them work as the shadow equivalent of allies.
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Can anyone here make a un-overpowered version of Sauron with this keyword? To be honest, I feel like the version I first posted is alright, instead of making him fierce, I could make him damage +1 instead.
It is much weaker for his 18 cost than the Castamir of Umbar.
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I think the Sauron is actually quite balanced.
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Which minions would deserve such a keyword?
Sauron
The Witch-King
Ulaire Enquea
Ulaire Toldea
Ulaire Attea
Ulaire Cantea
Ulaire Nerta
Ulaire Nelya
Ulaire Otsea
Ulaire Lemenya
Gollum
[Sauron] Wraiths?
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Shelob, The Balrog
Perhaps you could restrict where or how the ability becomes active ...
Where ... Shelob for example might have abiding at site 8 (or perhaps invent a LAIR site keyword that he can trigger off, The Balrog could be site 5 or perhaps underground sites. Essentially give them a home site.
Regroup: While Shelob is at site 8 or a Lair location, she gains Abiding
Regroup: While The Balrog is at site 5 or an Underground location, he gains Abiding
How ... Sauron could have game text such as ...
Regroup: While you can spot another [Sauron] minion, Sauron gains Abiding
This way you have to work a little harder to get it to work rather than rely on a heap of shadow from your opponent. It may enable the shadow cost to be reduced, because whilst they have Abiding at one site, they may not at the next. Just my 2 cents ....
Also ... What will happen to possessions and artifacts deployed on these minions ... i assume they will also stay until they are killed or discarded?
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Shelob, The Balrog
Besides Sauron, I would say these are the most important.
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I like the idea of a Balrog that is abiding at underground sites.
Why would you give Abiding to Shelob?
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Based on her role in the books and movie.
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I would give the keyword to unique minions that you could perhaps build a deck around. Shelob is one of the more significant minions in the book and movie, so as a player it is more interesting to attempt to design a deck around her. This keyword helps facilitate that process.
On that note, perhaps Watcher in the Water is another that could be explored with the Abiding keyword and using the Marsh keyword.
The idea of triggering of the site keyword is simply attempting to represent the fellowships struggle to escape the minion, and their home site "lair, underground, marsh or whatever". However, giving the same text to every minion is a bit bland ... so perhaps it suits The Balrog and Underground sites more than any other minion.
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On that note, perhaps Watcher in the Water is another that could be explored with the Abiding keyword and using the Marsh keyword.
This is a very good idea.
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Chompers makes an excellent point. You can't make too many abiding minions because then you could make a deck just filled with them which would be very difficult to beat.
I think you should choose a few (maybe 4-6) strategies that can revolve around particular individuals and make them distinctively different so that they don't combine.
Thranduil
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I am still not a fan of the concept. Why not just make a series of "stack here" conditions. Or make "location" conditions. Like this:
[4] • Minas Morgul
Location • Support Area
Regroup: Stack a unique [Ringwraith] minion here.
Shadow: Discard a minion from hand with a higher twilight cost than a stacked minion to play a minion stacked here. It's twilight cost is -3.
Works in theory with Sauron or Wikkie summoning Nazgul.
-wtk
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[1] Elven Magic [Elven]
Condition • Support Area
At the start of the group phase, if you cannot spot a minion, spot an Elf bearing an artifact to discard a location.
Thoughts?
-wtk
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Why not just make a series of "stack here" conditions.
Because this concept already exists and making a serie about that would probably be pretty boring. I don't think there is a need for 'location' cards, there are already sites and condition that represent this.
A keyword like Abiding creates something new, something refreshing.
[4] •Watcher in the Water, Water-dwelling creature [Moria]
Minion • Creature
Strength: 11
Vitality: 4
Site: 4
While at a marsh, Watcher in the Water is abiding.
Discard all other minions (except tentacles). Watcher in the Water cannot bear possessions.
Each time the fellowship moves, shuffle a tentacle from your discard pile into your draw deck.
If anyone wants to submit a Balrog, Shelob or any other abiding minion, please go ahead.
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What about this ...
[14] * The Balrog ... All My Eggs in One Basket OR Goblins for Breakfast
Minion * Balrog
Stength: 16
Vitality: 5
Site: 5
While at an underground site, The Balrog gains Abiding.
Maneuver: Discard three [Moria] orcs to make the Balrog strength +2 and fierce until end of turn.
Skirmish: Exert The Balrog twice to make him Damage +1 .
I don't know what else I can do with him .... perhaps there are better Balrogs, but this one hangs around!
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Discard The Balrog if not underground. While at an underground site, The Balrog gains Abiding.
I like this part, but not the rest.
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What about this ...
[14] * The Balrog ... All My Eggs in One Basket OR Goblins for Breakfast
Minion * Balrog
Stength: 16
Vitality: 5
Site: 5
Discard The Balrog if not underground. While at an underground site, The Balrog gains Abiding.
Maneuver: Discard three [Moria] orcs to make the Balrog strength +2 and fierce until end of turn.
Archery: Discard three [Moria] orcs to skip the archery phase.
Skirmish: Exert The Balrog twice to make him Damage +1 .
It is probably a bit TOO busy, but essentially the concept here is you need the support minions to make him good, but this Balrog is all about going it alone.
I'd prefer a Balrog that isn't discarded when not at underground sites (the importance of the the underground site is already represented by the abiding keyword). You are right, it is too busy. With Fill with Fear, there is no need for the archery line.
BTW, I edited my previous post, The Watcher in the Water is now shuffling a tentactle each time the fellowship moves which is nice with the abiding keyword.
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Abiding with Watcher in the Water might be what is needed to make it a solid deck option. It has always seemed so weak as a concept except perhaps with the addition of the Ages End stuff but I have never used those cards.
Perhaps instead of shuffle ...
Each time the fellowship moves, PLACE a tentacle from your discard pile ON THE BOTTOM OF your draw deck.
This might setup a big site 9 and a few moria players i have played recently have used this skill nicely to their advantage (with orcs).
Also.... do you intend that this game text will be active while he is located in your support area (or wherever) .... because this creates interesting possibilities.
I have also edited my Balrog ....
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[4] •Watcher in the Water, Water-dwelling creature [Moria]
Minion • Creature
Strength: 11
Vitality: 4
Site: 4
While at a marsh, Watcher in the Water is abiding.
Discard all other minions (except tentacles). Watcher in the Water cannot bear possessions.
Each time the fellowship moves, shuffle a tentacle from your discard pile into your draw deck.
This is excellent. Part of the point of having abiding minions is so that they can continue to affect the game, so having game text that continues to be relevant is fantastic. I would say, chompers, that you would need something similar for your Balrog (exerting abiding minions isn't nearly as exciting because they keep their wounds).
Thranduil
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[4] •Watcher in the Water, Water-dwelling creature [Moria]
Minion • Creature
Strength: 11
Vitality: 4
Site: 4
While at a marsh, Watcher in the Water is abiding.
Discard all other minions (except tentacles). Watcher in the Water cannot bear possessions.
Each time the fellowship moves, shuffle a tentacle from your discard pile into your draw deck.
This is excellent. Part of the point of having abiding minions is so that they can continue to affect the game, so having game text that continues to be relevant is fantastic. I would say, chompers, that you would need something similar for your Balrog (exerting abiding minions isn't nearly as exciting because they keep their wounds).
Thranduil
Hmmm ... i tend to agree here. My concerns is that The Balrog with Abiding will be TOO powerful and this always worries me, so the exertions is an attempt to tone him down and tempt the shadow player into sacrificing him (in a way) to kill a companion.
Oh well ... back to the drawing board. A skill that continues to affect the game whilst Abiding minions hang around in the support area seems very interesting. I will see what I can come up with ....
[14] * The Balrog ... "Well actually, you shall not pass!" (In Balrog)
Minion * Balrog
Stength: 17
Vitality: 5
Site: 4
Fierce. Damage +1.
While at an underground site, The Balrog gains Abiding.
Each time the fellowship plays a companion, you may make them discard a card at random from their hand.
](*,) I have writers block! The goal here is to try and draw out their events, and whilst The Balrog is around reinforcement should be hard to come by.
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Hmmm ... i tend to agree here. My concerns is that The Balrog with Abiding will be TOO powerful and this always worries me, so the exertions is an attempt to tone him down and tempt the shadow player into sacrificing him (in a way) to kill a companion.
Oh well ... back to the drawing board. A skill that continues to affect the game whilst Abiding minions hang around in the support area seems very interesting. I will see what I can come up with ....
[14] * The Balrog ... "Well actually, you shall not pass!" (In Balrog)
Minion * Balrog
Stength: 17
Vitality: 5
Site: 4
Fierce. Damage +1.
While at an underground site, The Balrog gains Abiding.
Each time the fellowship plays a companion, you may make them discard a card at random from their hand.
](*,) I have writers block! The goal here is to try and draw out their events, and whilst The Balrog is around reinforcement should be hard to come by.
I like the idea of 'Each time the fellowship plays a companion...'. Perhaps it could do something else than discard a card from hand, what about adding a burden? maybe 2 burdens? (there are not many underground sites in movie block). It would make a deck with Must Do Without Hope and Goblin Spear (Cards borne by abiding minions are not discarded as well at the end of the turn) possible to play in movie block.
In Standard, things would be more dangerous I guess... there are a lot of underground sites. But isn't Standard filled with powerful cards anyway?
For a better subtitle, let me suggest Nameless Terror.
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Let's be honest, [Sauron] Wraith sucks. They need A LOT of help. This is why I've made this powerful card. The idea for the name comes from the TLHH project.
[6] •Lost Army of the Dead Marshes [Sauron]
Minion • Wraith
Strength: 13
Vitality: 3
Site: 4
Twilight.
Each [Sauron] Wraith is Abiding.
While at a marsh, twilight minions may not take wounds (except during skirmish phases).