The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: Smeagollum on July 13, 2010, 06:58:58 AM
-
Hi all,
I understand from Gccg that a lot of people dont know the rules exactly concerning Secret Sentinels and card such alike (for example: Company of Archers). Please note that you need to forfill all actions you can do untill you cant.
So if there is an orc on table and somebody plays secret sentinels and he only spot 1 shadow condition and he has conditions on his own freeps then he needs to discard a condition of his own freeps. Or if there's no shadow condition then the active freepplayer even have to discard 2 freepsconditions (if he has one or 2):
Game Text: Maneuver: Exert an Elf ally to discard a condition (or 2 conditions if you spot an Orc).
-
That's true...
-
Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?
In any case, Secret Sentinels and Company of Archers don't limit themselves to Shadow conditions, so yes, you can choose to / may be forced to discard your own condition(s).
-
Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?
Nope; it means if you spot an orc 2 conditions have to be discarded.
-
Its like You Do Not Know Fear, it has the same requirement, you keep discarding conditions, FP or Shadow, for each [Uruk] you spot
-
Well what I think is strange that somebody told me that King89 and Olorin thought that if secret sentinels is played and there are no shadow conditions but there are freepsconditions in the active freepplayers area that those not have to be discarded. I think they didnt read the card well or misunderstood what was told to them?
-
Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?
Nope; it means if you spot an orc 2 conditions have to be discarded.
If you spot... but as I read it, Sentinels is not forcing you to spot an Orc. Compare the wording to Lothlorien Guides.
-
Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?
That is correct. You can choose whether or not to spot an Orc since it just says "if you spot". If it would have said "if you can spot", then you have to spot an Orc if there is one.
-
See what you means:
or 2 conditions if you spot an Orc
So if active freeps plays secret sentinels and spots an orc and no ahadow conditions, but he has 2 freepscond. on his own then he would have to discard at least one of them (ofcourse you can say that you don't spot an orc), because you'll have to do all actions. Sorry guys there´s no escape to it:) still have to discard a condition of his own.
Anyway you cant play secret sentinels for no effect if you dont spot shadow conditions, while you have conditions in your own freeps.
-
See what you means:
or 2 conditions if you spot an Orc
So if active freeps plays secret sentinels and spots an orc and no ahadow conditions, but he has 2 freepscond. on his own then he would have to discard at least one of them (ofcourse you can say that you don't spot an orc), because you'll have to do all actions. Sorry guys there´s no escape to it:) still have to discard a condition of his own.
Anyway you cant play secret sentinels for no effect if you dont spot shadow conditions, while you have conditions in your own freeps.
Yep, you got it now! You must discard one condition if there is a condition in play. You do have the choice whether or not to spot an Orc in play to discard two.
-
Completely off-topic, but those sentinels don't seem to be secret at all actually...
-
Completely off-topic, but those sentinels don't seem to be secret at all actually...
Now you got the secret;)
-
You mean like, the true sentinels are BEHIND the trees? D:
-
Just noticed Secret Sentinels says "you spot" and not "you can spot"... doesn't this mean you can choose not to meet the conditional effect, even if an Orc is in play?
That is correct. You can choose whether or not to spot an Orc since it just says "if you spot". If it would have said "if you can spot", then you have to spot an Orc if there is one.
I disagree. I don't think you can choose not to spot an orc. If there is an orc in play, you have to spot it, can't just close your eyes and say: "I see no orcs? Do you?". Besides, there was already a topic on this and it was concluded that you have to discard 2 conditions from play if you spot an orc and it doesn't matter if one or both are Free Peoples conditions.
-
I disagree. I don't think you can choose not to spot an orc. If there is an orc in play, you have to spot it, can't just close your eyes and say: "I see no orcs? Do you?".
This excerpt from the rulebook is how I defend the position that you are only forced to spot something in play if the wording is "you can spot":
Normally, you don’t have to spot all the cards in play that meet the requirement if you don’t want to.
If a card says, “for each Elf you spot” and there are 2 Elves in play (and active), you may choose to spot 2 Elves, 1 Elf, or none.
However, if a card says, “you can spot,” that means you don’t have a choice and you have to spot anything and everything that meets the requirement.
“While you can spot The Balrog, skip the archery phase” means you can’t make a choice (it either works or it doesn’t).
-
Comprehensive Rules pg.17
spot
The word spot sets up a requirement for playing a card or using a special ability in conjunction with a noun such as, “To play, spot an Elf.” This is equivalent to, “An Elf must be in play and active for you to play this card.”
Cards in your dead pile are active during your turn, but they’re not in play. You can’t spot a card in your dead pile.
Normally, you don’t have to spot all the cards in play that meet the requirement if you don’t want to.
If a card says, “for each Elf you spot” and there are 2 Elves in play (and active), you may choose to spot 2 Elves, 1 Elf, or none.
However, if a card says, “you can spot,” that means you don’t have a choice and you have to spot anything and everything that meets the requirement.
“While you can spot The Balrog, skip the archery phase” means you can’t make a choice (it either works or it doesn’t).
If the card does NOT say, "you can spot," then you may spot none.
-
ahum.. it's not about "you can spot" but about "if" what makes it possible not to spot... still you'll have to ditch one condition for secret sentinels. Though this topic is not about "spotting". It's about that you can't play something for no effect while there is still a rquirement you can forfill, even it means a nagative effect on your own part.
-
Well it sure seemed like you believed secret sentinels would discard 2 conditions no matter what if there was an orc out. That IS a "spot" issue. I didn't realize your real question was whether or not a player may play secret sentinels and such for no effect while a condition was out. The only requirement for secret sentinels is to exert an elf.
-
Well it sure seemed like you believed secret sentinels would discard 2 conditions no matter what if there was an orc out. That IS a "spot" issue. I didn't realize your real question was whether or not a player may play secret sentinels and such for no effect while a condition was out. The only requirement for secret sentinels is to exert an elf.
No it's about that if you play it and you dont spot a shadow condition you still have to discard a condition and if there is a freeps condition on your side then you'll have to discard it. thats the issue. About the spotting part Ellesar convinced me.
-
...if you play it and you dont spot a shadow condition you still have to discard a condition and if there is a freeps condition on your side then you'll have to discard it.
Correct, you must perform as much of the "effect" as possible.