The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Bag End => Topic started by: Tempest987 on May 28, 2011, 05:51:47 AM
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MOVIE PART
Due to a couple of gccg online discussions about those that favor standard and those that favor movie and also due to the fact that no one will play against me now (and yes I am bored) I have decided to try and come to a conclusion about one thing. Always this one thing comes to the table, one argument that both sides tend to throw out like it was a ninja shuriken, mind that if you have a shuriken you would want to throw it, since it's a ninja shuriken... and ninjas are cool. To continue I have decided to make a list of so called broken cards. Cards that movie format includes (which are exempt) from standard and vice versa. Cards that are the Chuck Norris of LOTR TCG. So lets start with the movie.
1. Gimli's Helm – just for its ability to soak up OVER 9000 threats
2. Shoulder to shoulder- for obvious reasons, not to mention combinig him with allies like elrond,galadriel,gimli rb or any other allies u have no use for
3. Barliman Butterbur- get back saved,roll,terrible,sleep,a wizard is never late etc.
4. Sleep Caradhras or Grown Suddenly tall- cmon discard ALL XD
5. Blade tip- owning fps since 2001
6. Black breath- doesn't even require you to win ...
7. Frodo Old Bilbo's Heir and his ally friends
8. Merry Friend to Sam- with mass healing, escape you will always have a +10 free pump
9. PATHS- nuff said
10. Bill Ferny
11. Shire Countryside- mass healing
12. Dunlandings ase a whole
13. Legolas Dauntless Hunter
14. Grima 1
15. Grima 2
16. Easterling polearm as a whole +bow+captain
17. Sam Son of Imbalance- removing burdens faster then Steve Job putting out new Ishits
18. Dont look at them
19. Orc site engine spam as a whole
20. Slaked thirsts with gimli feared axeman and preparations
21. Roll of thunder- in standard only men can directly discard possessions
22. Merrys sword and the famous rohan liking merry
23. Galadriel LR
Now mind that this is just a fast look. I didn't count stuff like gorn's bow since there is a even stronger gorn's bow in standard but there are a lot of threat adding stuff which is a must have against many stuff. Didnt count A wizard is never late since there is momentous gathering a bit better then but atleast in standard big fellowships can get screwed more ways than... THE FOLLOWING WAS CENSORED DUE TO EXTREME VULGARISM.
STANDARD PART
Now lets go to the standard format. I like it a little less than I like beer ... but you get the point or do you? I think you do unless you don't!!! Now before I start it is true that standard has more powerful cards than movie has, also what no one can debate is that standard requires more thinking when playing. The most simplest and obvious reason would be the sites. Unlike in movie you have to think what would be the best site suited for your current attack and how much tokens you will need, then combine these two to make the best outcome (for you ofc :D).
I will not put some cards which some people usually argue that are imba. The reason is because without them the FPs would be easy prey. The one most crucial diffrence in movie and standard is that running is less frequent in standard. And shadow kill is a much probable outcome. I will not stuff like prized lagan since its your fault if you have no threat adding, goblin hordes since its your fault if you have no cond discard or site control etc. So if anyone thinks of anything please say and I'll say what was the reason for not putting it. This is what most would say (if im not wrong)
These that have been underlined I don't agree that they are to be called broken.
1. One good turn deserves another (one less card, more burdens,having smeagol)
2. Wargs- now mind that orc wound sux in standard, troll swarm and orc swarm wouldnt be as effective without wargs which make it pretty good but you can still combat them
3. Namarie – obviously too strong should have a limit of 1 token
4. Shadowfax- too ez removing burdens it destroys corrupt shadows
5. Gil-Galad-too obvious for making broken token combos
6. Daddy Two-foot+no visitor+bilbo (hobbits would be very weak without this)
7. Grimbeon+axe
8. Robbin something-the follower
9. The one ring great ring
10. Gamling +horn ( THIS IS BROKEN, but as agreed its not played in standard)
11. Evil man possession swarm
12. Forest nazgul (They can kill,they can own, but they can be countered and have been)
13. Pallando
14. Spirit of the white tree
15. Ithilien Blade ( well it is strong but only till roaming stops)
16. Scouring of the Shire ( hobbits would suck without this)
17. Saruman follower
Whisper in the Dark ( This card is a mystery. Rules say that cards can't be attached to followers so can it be played or not? Mostly since that rule it's stoped being used so I think of this card as that event for orc archers, who don't exist, total fail from decipher )
CONCLUSION: Though it's the same game the concept of these two formats, gameplay, strats etc. Is quite diffrent. Unquestionable standard requires more thinking, your decks need to have a larger variety of abilities. In my opinion I find that movie has more imba cards than standard. And unlike some people I played both formats a lot of times unlike some people who played few games of one type and comment it without the proper experience and knowledge. Standard is more dangerous, as I previously said you will not see that many running.
In the end movie has 23 points and standard has 13 in brokeness( counting gamling+horn deck even though we have a gentlemens agreement not to play it). So here is my opinion how movie wins the brokeness contest.
Which means in my opinion MOVIE IS MORE BROKEN.
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Standard is in my opinion. Legolas DH isn't that broken. He can spot Merry and Pippin only. And plus there are ways to stop several of the cards you mentioned.
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There is always a way to counter... like for example you can stop gil-galads elven broken token with buckland and couple of nazgul, or if u play enough uruks and you do not know fear... just the problem is it's very hard and not all shadows can do this with in mind those that can have a big difficulty doing so and a very small chance that they will be sucesful :P
You can counter Sleep caradhras if u kill gand quick, you can counter sam if u take him out when he removes 3, PATHS if you play a weather condition to prevent skirmish:D but to be fair that usually never goes like that
PS You are the 1st that said DH isn't imba :)... I have a DH deck and I can say he is strong
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WITD is unusable, yes. Of course, TBiesty made it usable again in his fan format.
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Do you understand the word "broken"? Your "broken" list includes cards that are barely tournament worthy, and it misses some of the strongest cards. I'm at home tonight, so I'm going to take the bait and write about these in the context of Movie Block.
"Broken" means a card that requires the opponent to take it into account and can dominate a game. Corsair Marauder is broken, because it makes all possession-based strategies difficult. Galadriel, Lady Redeemed is broken, because she shuts down many different shadows.
1. Gimli's Helm – strong, but it's unique, requires Gimli, and can be removed by Corsair Marauder. No possession can be broken in Movie Block because of Corsair Marauder.
2. Shoulder to Shoulder- If you're playing dwarves, you don't want to play expensive Elf allies that don't help the main strategy. No good there. If you're playing Elves, with the exception of Gimli ringbearer you don't have good Dwarf cards to help you. And you might want to play Galadriel ringbearer or Frodo for burden defense. Besides, it doesn't remove wounds, just transfers them. If Galadriel Lady of Light were around, then it would be broken. But she's gone. Eowyn, Lady of Rohan is stronger, because the transfer is on the card itself.
3. Barliman Butterbur- It's a 1-for-1 that requires a commitment to Gandalf to be effective, and gets back a limited set of cards. Compare this to Final Account, which was broken because you could return any card in the game.
4. Sleep Caradhras or Grown Suddenly Tall- Requires Gandalf, is expensive, and removes Free Peoples conditions, too. It can win a game, but it weakens the FP as well.
5. Blade tip and 6. Black breath- Condition removal is not that hard in Movie Block. Elves are fine. Gandalf is fine. Gondor has Athelas. Dwarves have Blood Runs Chill, a card close to broken. Only Hobbits have trouble, and they're supposed to be afraid of Nazgul.
7. Frodo Old Bilbo's Heir and his ally friends - Discard the allies. Use Their Power is in Terror. Besides, allies don't help Hobbits win skirmishes, making double moves tricky. And there are only 4 hobbit companions in Movie Block. It's much stronger in 1-13 format.
8. Merry Friend to Sam- "with mass healing, escape you will always have a +10 free pump". Sure, if you set up your deck to use Merry he's strong. Let's see ... Desert Lord, Bill Ferny, Hate, swarm so Merry must fight ... And four exertions is not free.
9. PATHS- This meets the many-to-one definition of broken. But it clogs your hand for a long time, and most minions have multiple vitality. If I have 3 PATHS in my hand at site 9, I feel good. But I'd generally have to hold them all game and play a 5-card Shadow, which means a strong opponent should have beaten me.
10. Bill Ferny- offcolor +4 for 2 is not broken. I'd often rather have a Goblin Runner.
11. Shire Countryside- it's not that easy to remove burdens in Movie Block. And there's condition removal. This is bad news in 1-13, like Frodo.
12. Dunlandings- Knights crush them. Durin III, Deathless Lord should be able to beat them. They do beat certain decks, but that's acceptable. It's not all decks, and they collapse upon themselves occasionally.
13. Legolas Dauntless Hunter- This is close, because he's quite annoying. Fortunately, in movie block there are only 2 unbound hobbits. Swarm can work, too, because you need to protect the hobbits.
14. Grima 1 and 15. Grima 2 - completely avoidable.
16. Easterling polearm as a whole +bow+captain - Yes, this is really powerful, but requires 3 cards to set up. If the Captain allowed you to get the polearm automatically, that would be broken. Durin or a set up Man can handle him. And there's always Faramir, Son of Denethor.
17. Sam Son of Hamfast- A lot of people would agree with you here. I believe that corruption should be rare, and he is acceptable, but I wouldn't be unhappy to change him to remove burdens only from Hobbit ringbearers.
18. Dont look at them- 3 cards for one wound? And on Smeagol, a difficult to defend character? Do you ever want the FP to win?
19. Orc site engine spam as a whole- Annoying, but sometimes it falls apart on its own, and key condition removal can make it tolerable. Besides, most of this plays in Standard, too.
20. Slaked thirsts with Gimli, feared axeman and preparations- I know this is all the rage on GCCG, but I still don't see why losing automatic Durin to get some wounding is broken. Besides, this works better in Standard, so it's not Movie-specific.
21. Roll of thunder- "in standard only men can directly discard possessions," AND that's wrong. Gandalf is powerful. He should be able to discard a possession. Plus it's 1-for-1. Galadriel Lady Redeemed is broken because she can either 1-for-1 or use the Event as intended. This is just 1-for-1.
22. Merrys sword and the famous rohan liking merry- if it wasn't for Corsair Marauder, I would agree with you.
23. Galadriel, Lady Redeemed - I agree with you.
You did not include Saurman's Power, Goblin Scimitar with Scavengers, or Ulaire Enquea, which are all a lot closer to Broken then most of the cards you mentioned.
In summary, there are a few really powerful cards, but Ithilien Blade and Gamling with Horn are much worse. And I do agree with you, Shadows are more powerful in Standard - but that's different. Not necessarily better.
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My list of Imbalanced/Overpowered cards:
Movie:
Galadriel, Lady Redeemed
Legolas, Dauntless Hunter
Sam, Son of Hamfast
Castamir of Umbar
Saruman's Power
Sleep Caradhras
Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul
Standard:
Ithilien Blade
Gil-galad, High King of the Noldor
Namarie
Shadowfax, Greatest of The Mearas
Mountain Troll
Aragorn's Bow, Ranger's Longbow
The Faithful Stone
Saruman, Servant of Sauron
Troll's Keyward, Keeper of The Beast
I think it's very hard to call one individual card 'broken'. A combo of cards however can be 'broken', and the only 'broken' stuff I have seen is in standard:
Horn Deck
Mountain Troll / Orc Swarm
Namarie / Gil-Galad Tokens
Evil Men Possession Stacking (this maybe doesn't qualify, but it's pretty hard to survive against).
I don't think any of us will ever agree exactly on these issues, but to answer your question I think standard is more broken than movie. But I also enjoy playing standard a lot more than movie, it requires more thinking and more skill in general which makes it a better format.
Oh, and I'll still play against you... Just let me get to 50% win/loss ratio first. :P 2 more wins and I'm there.
From my experience on gccg, I would say that you and smallman are the best two players/deckbuilders I have seen which is probably why it's hard for you to get a game. There are a few others that probably deserve a mention like Heije, JMcCarthy and Olorin.
From our two games the other day, I agree that the first was crap due to matchup and the second was awesome also due to matchup. Any day I can get two wins in a row against you is a good day. :) I'm glad you forgot about Ent Horde having a defender bonus..
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ramolar lol... ur logic fails.
1)Gimlis helm isn't broken because it can be discarded by corsair marauder :D
2)For shoulder to shoulder its great to have elrond as a ally cos it's 3 heals, then 2 heals each time
3)Sleep or Grown-obviously you aren't going to use it if ur fp is condition based ... omg
4)Blade and black- you should look more closely at what type and how many cond removal is it even worth to put in a deck and this is 8 powerful cheap to free conditions
5)Shire countryside-yes it is XD its very easy
6)dont look at them- its great card cycling, solo smeagol, other types of smeagol for example one that exhausts minions, its 2 vs nazgul, can be used to lose initiative for example etc.
7)merrys sword- you do realize he takes back possessions from discard also there is this one condition that gets the sword back also XD
Basically I can comment and all what you said and its all too noobish and wrong. So the part you don't understand is the difference in knowing lotr tcg and between us its huge. You may think you are right but trust as I pointed above you are wrong
ps btw muad aragorns bow-uruks can add threats,prevent archery, cosairs can disc possessions, orc can add threats, nazgul can add threats and use em to prevent wounds, evil man can add threats too much counters can't agree it being broken and faithful stone is errated if u remember
and again I already said horn deck isn't played :P
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ramolnar knows much about this game and its nuances - you would be wise to listen to what he has to say.
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I wouldn't even put Marauder on the list.
My broken list would include stuff like Galadriel, LR, Demoralized, Erkenbrand's Horn, Madril, Defender of Osgiliath. Stuff that's been mostly banned.
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ramolar lol... ur logic fails.
Basically I can comment and all what you said and its all too noobish and wrong. So the part you don't understand is the difference in knowing lotr tcg and between us its huge. You may think you are right but trust as I pointed above you are wrong
Tempest987, thank you for making me laugh. I LOLed at this comment. We can surely disagree. I haven't played much Standard, so I suspect you have better current knowledge of that format than I do.
But, do you know what you did on Tuesday, November 6, 2001? I remember my evening. I drove from my apartment to Pastimes in Niles, Illinois, and I played in a sealed deck card tournament. I tied for first that night and won a T-shirt. Earlier this week, I was cleaning out my closets preparing to move, and I found that shirt. It's The One Ring, Isildur's Bane. I remember that night because that was the first day Fellowship of the Ring cards were available for sale.
Therefore, unless you were one of the playtesters for the first set, I don't think I'm the noob here.
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Ok, I didn't want to butt in, but, seriously, that was EPIC!
As for the whole "BROKEN!" discussion, LotR players tend to overreact on what is broken, they don't usually follow good guidelines for that (the whole "LR must be banned!" thing proves that, people simply banned a card because other people said it wasn't fair and should be banned... kind of a circular logic, ain't it?), but I see MAJOR holes in ALL the lists for what would ACTUALLY be "broken", instead of just "powerful". I also don't think a post will change that, people have their preferences, and they'll justify it in whatever way the want, even if they're "outlogicked" anyway, so I think it's just better to stick with the format you like for whatever reason, and respect people for the formats THEY like, and call it a day.
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I laugh so hard when I saw your movie block list of broken cards, of all the 23cards, I agree on 2. LR and PATHS (but i do not mind playing against the last one)
Standard format have so much more combos (some are completly broken compare to movie block) that it is not the same game at all.
I think tempest that you juge both set of cards on the same standars. The best exemple I found is your exemple of gimli's helm. How many shadow side and freep side abuse threats? maybe 1 or 2 on both side. plus you have to loose a companion.... compare this to into the west elven condition from ROTK...
Gimli helms is much stronger in expended because there is more cards that work with threats and that I think cloud your judgement.
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As for the whole "BROKEN!" discussion, LotR players tend to overreact on what is broken, they don't usually follow good guidelines for that (the whole "LR must be banned!" thing proves that, people simply banned a card because other people said it wasn't fair and should be banned... kind of a circular logic, ain't it?), but I see MAJOR holes in ALL the lists for what would ACTUALLY be "broken", instead of just "powerful".
MtG players- We laugh when LotR players toss around the word "broken."
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Well, it depends, there certainly ARE broken things (Horn/Fiend), but LotR players usually skip the "powerful" stage altogether, it's "average"; "good enough"; "good" and "broken".
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I'd add one more to the standard part: into the west and aragorn's bow, RL. Net one exertion for 3 wounds on minions. It does require some set up though, so I guess its not terrible.
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not to mention the faithful stone / elven supplies / arwen she elf killer combo. it gets worse in expended with gorn dofp
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Really not willing to be Mr. Know it All here, but this topic is so filled with misconceptions about "broken" and "good" cards and combos that it's difficult to know where to start commenting on anything :-k
Dunland broken? Don't look at them broken? wow... i've read enough :whistle:
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I personally think that The Faithful Stone is just over-powered, but not quite broken. If there weren't the prevent option then definitively. And it needs to be unique but other than that...
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Broken, for me, is all about the loops.
Demoralized + Rapid Reload
Gamling's Horn + New Chapter
Steadfast Champion et al
Everything else is just a better than normal card, although cards like The Faithful Stone and Prized Lagan (to name a few) are just cheap.
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Really not willing to be Mr. Know it All here, but this topic is so filled with misconceptions about "broken" and "good" cards and combos that it's difficult to know where to start commenting on anything
So everyone knows cards are broken if they allow you to do something that the game wasn't supposed to be able to happen. For example, Mordor Fiend/ Dark Lord SUmmons: Erkenbards Horn/ New Chapter. Or Steadfast champion or a few others. For a better definition check the Open block.
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Really not willing to be Mr. Know it All here, but this topic is so filled with misconceptions about "broken" and "good" cards and combos that it's difficult to know where to start commenting on anything
So everyone knows cards are broken if they allow you to do something that the game wasn't supposed to be able to happen. For example, Mordor Fiend/ Dark Lord SUmmons: Erkenbards Horn/ New Chapter. Or Steadfast champion or a few others. For a better definition check the Open block.
Oh, I know what broken cards are, what I meant is some people in this topic don't, so it's hard to follow a discussion where someone argues that Sleep Caradhras is broken. Looks like they just never played the game, just read the card texts lol
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I'm not the one who thumbed you down, just for the record.
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If Shoulder to Shoulder is broken, why does it shows up only in like 0.001% of all movie block game played?
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Because people respect the game and ALWAYS refuse to play broken stuff, hahahahaahaha :up:.
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Why are we even having this discussion? Everyone knows expanded is the most broken (Open excluded)
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We're not. We're just making fun of the poor card choices that were claimed to be broken, mostly. Feel free to join.
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ramolar lol... ur logic fails.
1)Gimlis helm isn't broken because it can be discarded by corsair marauder :D
2)For shoulder to shoulder its great to have elrond as a ally cos it's 3 heals, then 2 heals each time
3)Sleep or Grown-obviously you aren't going to use it if ur fp is condition based ... omg
4)Blade and black- you should look more closely at what type and how many cond removal is it even worth to put in a deck and this is 8 powerful cheap to free conditions
5)Shire countryside-yes it is XD its very easy
6)dont look at them- its great card cycling, solo smeagol, other types of smeagol for example one that exhausts minions, its 2 vs nazgul, can be used to lose initiative for example etc.
7)merrys sword- you do realize he takes back possessions from discard also there is this one condition that gets the sword back also XD
Basically I can comment and all what you said and its all too noobish and wrong. So the part you don't understand is the difference in knowing lotr tcg and between us its huge. You may think you are right but trust as I pointed above you are wrong
ps btw muad aragorns bow-uruks can add threats,prevent archery, cosairs can disc possessions, orc can add threats, nazgul can add threats and use em to prevent wounds, evil man can add threats too much counters can't agree it being broken and faithful stone is errated if u remember
and again I already said horn deck isn't played :P
Someone's an arrogant asshat. Jesus H. Christ, you know less about the game than I did five years ago, and that's saying something. :down:
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Hi guys,
IMO only a few cards are broken - sure there are powerful/more useful cards... strategies, etc.
...loops, like Jordy said can be bad too...
...but nice idea from tempest to post something like that, due to that many people think standard is a broken format and movie is that balanced... there are differences in gameplay
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Anyone have thoughts on Relics of Moria (when combined with Goblin Scimitar and Goblin Armory)?
It's a powerful combo, but I don't think it's broken. That's one card I wish was not on the x-list for movie block. But then my play-group and I don't abide by the x-list anyway... So I use this card in my moria deck, but I do sometimes feel a little guilty.
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Anyone have thoughts on Relics of Moria (when combined with Goblin Scimitar and Goblin Armory)?
It's a powerful combo, but I don't think it's broken. That's one card I wish was not on the x-list for movie block. But then my play-group and I don't abide by the x-list anyway... So I use this card in my moria deck, but I do sometimes feel a little guilty.
It's utterly broken LOL Moria can win games very easily without it, what say with 4 of it.
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Its basically becoming an extention to your hand by 4 cards. The problem with Relics is that it continuous pulls scimitars. In the end it can add up to 2 pool and a card per scimitar. Its utter sick when you face relics with 4 armories and 4 scimitars.
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Relics of Moria is overpowered and should be banned, but I wouldn't count it as broken. Even though I'd play it in Firebomb decks, it doesn't automatically win games, and it's not negative play experience (NPE). You can still beat Moria, by removing conditions, pumping the ringbearer, defender+, and PATHS. Also, playing Moria restricts the fellowship - you can't play a slow deck that holds events, like Servant of the Secret Fire, because the Shadow wants to cycle cards.
If Goblin Armory didn't add twilight, Relics would be acceptable: "pay 2 to draw a card and get a +2 strength." That's strong but not bad. Once we get to free cards, or adding 1-2 and getting the card, then we have problems.
The Free Peoples equivalent is Aggression, as vastly undercosted card draw. That card is also justly banned.