The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => Valinor => Topic started by: sgtdraino on December 23, 2012, 06:23:27 AM
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It has recently come to my attention that Gemp has a rather significant house rule for some of its formats, that allows skirmishes with the Ring-bearer to be cancelled. Many folks may not have realized they were playing with a house rule, but they are.
Since that is the case, maybe some more house rules wouldn't be so terrible either! After all, the "official" line has already been crossed.
Thoughts?
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This is not a house rule. This is an official rule for FotR and TTT site path formats.
The rule not allowing cancelling was introduced when Reflections came out. So all pre-Reflections format allow cancelling - as they did when they were Standard format.
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When you play strictly with old cards, you are also playing by the old rules. You could cancel the RB's skirmish during those older formats.
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You guys got a citation for that? Because the CR says that the Ring-bearer's skirmish cannot be cancelled, period. No exemptions regarding any format. CRDs all say the same thing.
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Anyone who played the game when it was new knows when the "no canceling the RB's skirmish" rule was introduced. And that was when Reflections was released.
Decipher was only interested in promoting the Standard (and later Expanded) formats for their tourneys, since those were the formats that had folks buying new cards. So any rules they introduced were meant with those two formats in mind. They didn't care about Fellowship block, Tower Standard or Movie Block except when those blocks were the Standard format. And it was during that time when you could cancel the RB's skirmish.
Gemp is merely emulating how it was to play those formats during that time.
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Well, if you want to stick 100% to latest CRD, you are not allowed to play any other formats than Standard and Expanded ;) all other formats were not officially recognized when the last CRD was issued.
To find rules on Towers Standard, you have to use last CRD before RotK set came out. To find rules on Movie Block, you have to use last CRD before Shadows came out. And so on. Probably those CRDs are available somewhere.
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Anyone who played the game when it was new knows when the "no canceling the RB's skirmish" rule was introduced. And that was when Reflections was released.
I've played since the game first came out.
Decipher was only interested in promoting the Standard (and later Expanded) formats for their tourneys, since those were the formats that had folks buying new cards. So any rules they introduced were meant with those two formats in mind. They didn't care about Fellowship block, Tower Standard or Movie Block except when those blocks were the Standard format. And it was during that time when you could cancel the RB's skirmish.
Surely you aren't suggesting that all the various rules in the CR or CRDs only apply to Standard or Expanded. This isn't about commercial promotions, this is about the rules of the game. The CR also talks about how you play other formats besides Standard or Expanded, and nowhere anywhere is any exception made in regards to the Ring-bearer's skirmishes.
Gemp is merely emulating how it was to play those formats during that time.
That's really no different than saying that Gemp is going to pretend that a CRD document was never released, because we're playing as if we traveled back in time to a point before the rules were changed. The fact is, the rules were changed, and if Gemp is going to allow the Ring-bearer to cancel skirmishes in any format, that is a house rule, not an official one.
Well, if you want to stick 100% to latest CRD, you are not allowed to play any other formats than Standard and Expanded ;) all other formats were not officially recognized when the last CRD was issued.
I just looked through the latest CRD, and I see nothing there that says other formats are no longer officially recognized. Citation?
To find rules on Towers Standard, you have to use last CRD before RotK set came out. To find rules on Movie Block, you have to use last CRD before Shadows came out. And so on. Probably those CRDs are available somewhere.
Having to look at other CRDs, does not mean the formats in question are no longer recognized. The latest CRD does not say that older CRDs are no longer valid.
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Look under "playing sites." The rules listed there are vastly different from how you play sites in pre-Shadows. Or are you going to insist that we add tokens for the region when we move to site 4 on the King path?
Old format = old cards = old rules. It's not that complicated.
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Look under "playing sites." The rules listed there are vastly different from how you play sites in pre-Shadows. Or are you going to insist that we add tokens for the region when we move to site 4 on the King path?
All covered in CR under "Formats":
Formats
Each game has one of the following formats:
• Fellowship block – only cards from sets 1, 2,
and 3,
• Tower block – only cards from sets 4, 5, and 6,
• King block – only cards from sets 7, 8, and 10,
• War of the Ring block – only cards from sets
11, 12, and 13,
• Open – all cards allowed, including set 9
(Reflections), using only sites from set 11
onward (Shadows).
• Standard – a tournament format similar to
Open, but including the X-List (see the Current
Rulings document, available for download).
You and your opponents must each have a deck
built for the same format.
When you play a game using the Fellowship
block, Tower block, or King block format, you
cannot choose any site from your adventure
deck when it is time to play a new site on the
adventure path. Instead, the site which has the
next consecutive site number must be played.
When you play a game using the Fellowship
block, Tower block, or King block format, you
do not add pool for the fellowship’s region
number when you are moving your fellowship.
Old format = old cards = old rules. It's not that complicated.
Sure. Except it's also not the official way to play.
ETA: I suppose that does mean that "Towers Standard" is technically no longer an official format, though. I think that's the only "turn the clock back" format.
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sgtdraino, I love reading your threads. Fellowship Block, Tower Block, and Towers Standard, at the time, allowed for ringbearer skirmishes to be canceled. As mentioned decipher made it a hard rule with Reflections that you can no longer cancel the ringbearer skirmish, but that rule only applied to the current Standard environment.
Now, I'm the third person to clarify this for you, and I'm sure you'll ignore it and repeat your erroneous position.
Even if it were a house rule (which its not) that doesn't give us carte blanche for all house rules.
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The May 4, 2004 CRD was released at the same time as Comprehensive Rules 3.0, and these are the first instances of the "Ring-bearer skirmish may not be cancelled" rule in LotR TCG. The files are too large to attach to this post, but if you want to look at them, they can be viewed here:
5/4/04 CRD (http://www.filedropper.com/5-4-04lotr-crd-en)
Comprehensive Rules 3.0 (http://www.filedropper.com/comprehensiverules30)
Also, having had the opportunity to know and converse with several high-level DGMA judges over the years, including Enrique Huerta and Dan Bojanowski, I can tell you with 100% certainty that it was always Decipher's intent that Ring-bearer skirmishes could be cancelled in Fellowship Block.
Towers Standard, being the closest to a "house rules" format as we currently have in the 1E landscape, is probably your best bet for making this point. Since the baseline understanding of TS format is to include all rulings and X-List entries as of the release of Ents of Fangorn, however, your argument would still be invalid because the Ring-bearer skirmish cancelling rule was not implemented until May 4, 2004 and Ents of Fangorn was released on July 2, 2003.
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OK, I didn't know that Block formats are in the CRD.
Still this leaves us with Towers Standard, Movie and War of the Ring Standard as unofficial formats which were Standard at some point. And I think the only logical way to play them is according to official rules from relevant day - one day before release of RotK, Shadows and Hunters sets.
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sgtdraino, I love reading your threads. Fellowship Block, Tower Block, and Towers Standard, at the time, allowed for ringbearer skirmishes to be canceled. As mentioned decipher made it a hard rule with Reflections that you can no longer cancel the ringbearer skirmish, but that rule only applied to the current Standard environment.
Citation, please? Where do the rules say that this particular rule only applied to the Standard environment?
Now, I'm the third person to clarify this for you, and I'm sure you'll ignore it and repeat your erroneous position.
I'm quoting chapter and verse from the CR and the CRDs. Cite an official source which supports your position, otherwise it's just another unofficial opinion.
Even if it were a house rule (which its not) that doesn't give us carte blanche for all house rules.
Either Gemp is by-the-book, or it isn't. If it chooses to use house rules, then certainly it has carte blanche to enact all the house rules it wants to. It just can't call itself by-the-book.
The May 4, 2004 CRD was released at the same time as Comprehensive Rules 3.0, and these are the first instances of the "Ring-bearer skirmish may not be cancelled" rule in LotR TCG. The files are too large to attach to this post, but if you want to look at them, they can be viewed here:
5/4/04 CRD (https://filetea.me/t1sfbd29)
Comprehensive Rules 3.0 (https://filetea.me/t1s9ff9f)
I tried opening those links, but they just give me blank windows. If you can tell me how to download those files, I'd certainly like to add them to my collection.
Also, having had the opportunity to know and converse with several high-level DGMA judges over the years, including Enrique Huerta and Dan Bojanowski, I can tell you with 100% certainty that it was always Decipher's intent that Ring-bearer skirmishes could be cancelled in Fellowship Block.
I've met Bojo, good guy. I don't have any experience with Huerta. In any event, unless you can get one of those guys to come on here and tell us, or show us something they wrote which confirms that position, it's still just hearsay. The CR and the CRDs do not just apply to Standard, and they most certainly do apply to formats that predate their release. That's the whole point of a Current Rulings Document: To make new rulings, clarifications and changes to what had come before. The CR is not just the rules document for Standard format, it is the rules document for the entirety of the LOTR TCG. And that document says:
Ring-bearer
One Free Peoples character always begins the
game as your Ring-bearer. (See building your
deck.) He bears The One Ring for you, much as
when Frodo carried the Ring in his pocket or on
a chain around his neck.
If a character other than Frodo is your Ring-
bearer, you cannot play any version of Frodo
with the Ring-bearer keyword during the game.
While wearing The One Ring, your Ring-bearer
can perform all normal actions such as moving
and skirmishing. He may defend against
attacking minions as usual.
The Ring-bearer cannot be discarded or returned
to your hand, and skirmishes involving the Ring-
bearer cannot be cancelled.
There is no mention anywhere that there are any formats which are exempt to this. Additionally, we have this individual card ruling reflected in both the CR and the CRDs:
O ELBERETH! GITHONIEL! 2 R 108
As skirmishes involving the Ring-bearer cannot be
cancelled, the skirmish action of this condition can
only be used to take off The One Ring.
Again, no mention of this limitation only applying to certain formats.
Towers Standard, being the closest to a "house rules" format as we currently have in the 1E landscape, is probably your best bet for making this point. Since the baseline understanding of TS format is to include all rulings and X-List entries as of the release of Ents of Fangorn, however, your argument would still be invalid because the Ring-bearer skirmish cancelling rule was not implemented until May 4, 2004 and Ents of Fangorn was released on July 2, 2003.
The argument is valid because there is no such thing as an official scenario called "Towers Standard." Back when Towers was being released, there was Standard Format, which follows the evolving definition of Standard Format. It wasn't "Towers Standard," it was just Standard Format. And once the next block came out, the definition of Standard Format caused the available card pool for that format to change. Once King Block came out, as far as Decipher was concerned, "Towers Standard" was not any kind of official format that continued to exist. Officially, it was never its own entity.
Still this leaves us with Towers Standard, Movie and War of the Ring Standard as unofficial formats which were Standard at some point.
Correct.
And I think the only logical way to play them is according to official rules from relevant day - one day before release of RotK, Shadows and Hunters sets.
That makes sense. The issue is, the various block formats are official formats, and according to the CR and the CRDs, Ring-bearer skirmishes cannot be cancelled in any of them.
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I've updated those download links. I used a different file repo, so they should work now.
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someone has extra time :)
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There is a huge difference between playing with house rules and playing with the rules as they used to work. If you can't see that, then there's no point in continuing this discussion further.
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There is a huge difference between playing with house rules and playing with the rules as they used to work. If you can't see that, then there's no point in continuing this discussion further.
If you're not abiding by official Decipher rules, then you are using house rules. Period.
This:
This is not a house rule. This is an official rule for FotR and TTT site path formats.
Is incorrect.
As is this:
The rule not allowing cancelling was introduced when Reflections came out. So all pre-Reflections format allow cancelling - as they did when they were Standard format.
And this:
When you play strictly with old cards, you are also playing by the old rules. You could cancel the RB's skirmish during those older formats.
And this:
Decipher was only interested in promoting the Standard (and later Expanded) formats for their tourneys, since those were the formats that had folks buying new cards. So any rules they introduced were meant with those two formats in mind. They didn't care about Fellowship block, Tower Standard or Movie Block except when those blocks were the Standard format.
And this:
Well, if you want to stick 100% to latest CRD, you are not allowed to play any other formats than Standard and Expanded ;) all other formats were not officially recognized when the last CRD was issued.
And this:
As mentioned decipher made it a hard rule with Reflections that you can no longer cancel the ringbearer skirmish, but that rule only applied to the current Standard environment.
THIS, on the other hand:
Still this leaves us with Towers Standard, Movie and War of the Ring Standard as unofficial formats which were Standard at some point. And I think the only logical way to play them is according to official rules from relevant day - one day before release of RotK, Shadows and Hunters sets.
IS correct. These are unofficial formats, and thus playing with them constitutes "house rules." They no longer abide by the current Decipher rules. Not that there's anything wrong with that; quite the contrary. LOTR is a flawed game, and house rules make that game more playable.
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What differance does this make?
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The difference is that there currently seems to be a lot of resistance in the Gemp community (or at least among several more vocal members thereof) to trying out new unofficial rules, rulings, or formats which could make LOTR more playable. Up until now, the party line has more-or-less been strict adherence to official rules, rulings, and formats.
But now, it turns out that a number of the formats played on Gemp aren't actually official formats, and one of the formats that IS official (Fellowship block) is not abiding by the official rules. It is my hope that recognizing this, could pave the way to further improvements.
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When will you understand that when we play fellowship block, we are playing by the rules as they were written at the time? It's not that difficult to comprehend.
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When will you understand that when we play fellowship block, we are playing by the rules as they were written at the time? It's not that difficult to comprehend.
I comprehend it fine, it's just not the legal way to play it. The Comprehensive Rules dictate that Ring-bearer skirmishes can't be canceled, and that rule applies to King Block format, Towers Block format, and Fellowship Block format, as those are all official Decipher formats recognized in the Comprehensive Rules, and used at tournaments after the CRs were published.
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you can cancel the skimirish.
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I'd just like to point out the existence of pre-shadows multipath as well, it was never a standard format and is still played on GEMP. I don't see why people are so against house rules, its not as if Decipher was somehow omnipotent. House rules would have to be done carefully and with a good majority in agreement. Not everyone will be happy, but not everyone is happy now. The only ability Decipher had that we don't is the ability to put the magic word 'official' in front of a rule, but lets face it, some of their official rules were crap, so why do we play by them all the time?
Normally I stay out of this stuff, but I just think it gets kinda ridiculous how religious some people get about 'official' rules (I don't mean to offend and I understand your points, I just disagree sometimes. Sorry if this comes off as abrasive, I'll keep quiet next time :P )
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I'd just like to point out the existence of pre-shadows multipath as well, it was never a standard format and is still played on GEMP. I don't see why people are so against house rules, its not as if Decipher was somehow omnipotent. House rules would have to be done carefully and with a good majority in agreement. Not everyone will be happy, but not everyone is happy now. The only ability Decipher had that we don't is the ability to put the magic word 'official' in front of a rule, but lets face it, some of their official rules were crap, so why do we play by them all the time?
Normally I stay out of this stuff, but I just think it gets kinda ridiculous how religious some people get about 'official' rules (I don't mean to offend and I understand your points, I just disagree sometimes. Sorry if this comes off as abrasive, I'll keep quiet next time :P )
Exactly! I couldn't agree more!
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Normally I stay out of this stuff, but I just think it gets kinda ridiculous how religious some people get about 'official' rules (I don't mean to offend and I understand your points, I just disagree sometimes. Sorry if this comes off as abrasive, I'll keep quiet next time :P )
I think house rules are great! It just annoys me when people try to claim house rules are official, when they aren't.
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The problem with house rules is that they draw away new blood. Cause rules have changed, you have to redo things and its not worth it.
Cancelling Rb skirmishes in FOTR and TTT block is not such a thing, bcause it already happened during that block, so thats the big difference. People KNOW that rule already.
Other house rules will just alienate players from GEMP.
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The problem with house rules is that they draw away new blood. Cause rules have changed, you have to redo things and its not worth it.
There is always going to be a learning curve with new blood. Last night I talked to a group of people who are new to Gemp, and had previously been playing online with each other for years via some sort of other method. One of them expressed frustration that his favorite decks were not legal for any formats, because apparently the whole time they'd been playing, they'd been using King block sites, but allowing all cards to be legal. Another way they played, was they'd bid to see what site path they'd use. The high bidder got to choose what block the site path comes from. I'm not sure they even realized until recently that they were actually operating under house rules, not official ones.
Well, surprise! The same goes for you guys. And that's not a bad thing! This idea of bidding for the site path is interesting, could make for an interesting new format. That group certainly seemed to like it, and maybe it's stuff like that we can explore on the new server.
Cancelling Rb skirmishes in FOTR and TTT block is not such a thing, bcause it already happened during that block, so thats the big difference. People KNOW that rule already.
Granted. But do you realize it's been at least eight years since it was legal to cancel Ring-bearer skirmishes?
It's a bit like pretending that certain cards were never errataed, or certain cards were never put on the X-list, because you liked the game better before Decipher changed the rules.
Other house rules will just alienate players from GEMP.
As shown in the above example, that is not necessarily the case.