The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: dmaz on September 04, 2014, 07:58:48 PM
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Here's the card:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/lotr14015
My assumption is that when you play this card, and choose the keyword, that keyword will be in place even if your opponent swaps the site with, say, Traveled Leader. Because it says "fellowship's current site", does that mean that even if either Shadow or Fellowship changes the site, that new site is still the "fellowship's current site"?
This could be a useful card when going up against an IB deck and you want to keep the site underground so that Balrog, DoM will skip maneuver.
What do you guys think?
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I don't know, I can see it either way. I know, real helpful!
I usually interpret things the way Magic plays, which isn't always consistent with LotR, but I see this minion giving a keyword to the actual site card, that would stay with that specific site card (not transferrable to a replacement).
Have you tested it on Gemp?
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It could be taken either way.
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Not sure about the card ruling, but with the balrog, they wont have time to change the site anyway.
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My best guess is that it only applies to site that is "current" when the uruk is played based upon the snapshot idea associate with other cards such as Eregion's Trails (only the minions roaming during the maneuver phase when the card is played are affected. It would not apply to a minion that was made roaming during say the skirmish phase as RB Rangers used to do). So, were someone to swap the site after the uruk was played and his text applied, the new site would not gain the keyword.
As Sgt points out, this question is essentially academic if one is concerned with using Balrog, DoM.
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My best guess is that it only applies to site that is "current" when the uruk is played based upon the snapshot idea associate with other cards such as Eregion's Hills (only the minions roaming during the maneuver phase when the card is played are affected. It would not apply to a minion that was made roaming during say the skirmish phase as RB Rangers used to do). So, were someone to swap the site after the uruk was played and his text applied, the new site would not gain the keyword.
As Sgt points out, this question is essentially academic if one is concerned with using Balrog, DoM.
Yeah, I completely brainfarted about the balrog haha.
I thought about bibfortuna's golden rule of "Cards do what they say" and tried to follow that to its logical conclusion. I guess it could be taken both ways, but after reading through the card, and some other cards fully, here's the way I took it.
1. Uruk is played, Uruk makes the fellowship's current site X until the end of the end of the turn.
2. The fellowship's current site is X.
3. Site is swapped for another site.
4. The new site is now the fellowship's current site.
5. The fellowship's current site is X.
Take your example with Eregion's Trails. When the card is played then, until regroup phrase, it will target all roaming minions at any point in time, right? So be checking. Is this minion roaming? Yes. Then is it strength -3. Now he is not roaming, he is not strength -3.
If we were to use Eregion's Trails as an example, then we should apply the same thing to Uruk-hai Scout. Is this site the fellowship's current site? Yes. Then it is X.
The flipside to this argument is that when it says "fellowship's current site" it's referring only to the site that the fellowship is standing on now.
Well...
1. The card doesn't say that.
2. In FOTR whenever a card is being singled out, it is usually "spotted".
Look at Uruk Cavern Striker, for example. A single site is being targeted, thus you "spot" that site.
The way I now understand it after looking at all of this is:
If the card was to only add the keyword to the site that the Fellowship was standing on at the moment Uruk-hai Scout was played, then the wording would have to be as such:
"Spot the fellowship's current site. That site gains that keyword until the end of the turn."
This way you actually are singling out the site that they are standing on at that moment, so that if the site were changed in maneuver, the fellowship's current site would no longer have the keyword.
Hopefully bib will swing by to lend his knowledge...
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I'm pretty sure Eregion's Trails only affects minions that are roaming at the time it is played. The whole "snapshot" idea, since it is an event, is that all currently roaming minions are strength -3 until regroup. Otherwise it would say "Until the Regroup phase, each minion that is roaming is strength -3." It may seem like the same thing but it's not. In my example wording, the event acts almost like a condition that would check for roaming until the Regroup (exactly as you described). The actual card however is modifying the existing minions at the moment it is played and keeping that modification until the Regroup. It doesn't modify minions in the future if they are made roaming later. That is why I think the Uruk-hai Scout modifies the existing site when played, but if replaced the new site doesn't gain the same text.
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I'm pretty sure Eregion's Trails only affects minions that are roaming at the time it is played. The whole "snapshot" idea, since it is an event, is that all currently roaming minions are strength -3 until regroup. Otherwise it would say "Until the Regroup phase, each minion that is roaming is strength -3." It may seem like the same thing but it's not. In my example wording, the event acts almost like a condition that would check for roaming until the Regroup (exactly as you described). The actual card however is modifying the existing minions at the moment it is played and keeping that modification until the Regroup. It doesn't modify minions in the future if they are made roaming later. That is why I think the Uruk-hai Scout modifies the existing site when played, but if replaced the new site doesn't gain the same text.
You are exactly right about Eregion's Trails. I was in a hurry when I posted, so perhaps I should have made sure I was more clear with my explanation. It was this same understanding of Eregion's Trails that led me to conclude that, as you say, the scout modifies the existing current site when played, but if that site is subsequently replaced, the new current site does not gain the keyword.
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I would rule it that the Uruk-hai Scout adds the keyword to the new swapped site. If he only worked on the exact site that he's played at, he would say "When you play this minion, spot the fellowship's current site. That site gains X keyword until the regroup phase."
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So what if the fellowship doubles? Now their current site is a different site. Still applies the keyword?
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Not sure about that...say the Uruk-hai Scout was played at site 4. The fellowships current site when he is played is site 4. If it got switched during maneuver it is still site 4. If they fellowship doubled, site 5 is the fellowship's current site, BUT it is not site 4...but as it is still the same turn site 4 still has the keyword they chose, and will continue to have it no matter how many times it is changed. Still not sure...just my take on it.
@BigRedMF and dethwish - if we make that conclusion about Eregion's Trails, then this means that playing We Must Go Warily would do absolutely nothing for minions played in the next shadow phase. This is a response event that happens while the fellowship moves in the regroup phase. If we used your snapshot theory, then the only minions that would gain +1 twilight cost would be ones that were in play at the time the event was played. If I understand you right, for this card to do anything at all to any future minions played it would have needed to read: "until the next regroup phase, each minion that is played during the shadow phase is twilight cost +1". But it's not worded that way and it still does exactly that...events that do X until X phase, must, I believe, be dynamic.
The only time the effects are not dynamic, from my understanding, is when you are required to "spot" something. then you are dealing with that particular card or cards, for the amount of time specified, and to whatever effects follow after spotting.
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Dmaz, I think you are misunderstanding what is lasting until the Regroup phase. We Must Go Warily increases each minion's cost by 1 until the next Regroup phase. You can't misinterpret that because you only pay a cost when you play a minion; hence it does not affect minions already in play, but those that will be played until the next Regroup phase.
Eregion's Trails however makes (currently) roaming minions strength -3 until the Regroup phase. The strength modifier is what lasts until the Regroup phase, not the check for roaming. When you play the card, all minions that are roaming at that time become strength -3. That strength modification lasts until the Regroup phase (it wouldn't be very helpful otherwise). But if a minion is not roaming, they do not get the modifier when the event is played.
The point raised about Uruk-hai Scout and the fellowship moving makes me even more convinced that it should only apply to the actual site card, and not the generic "current site" regardless of what that card may be.
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Dmaz, I think you are misunderstanding what is lasting until the Regroup phase. We Must Go Warily increases each minion's cost by 1 until the next Regroup phase. You can't misinterpret that because you only pay a cost when you play a minion; hence it does not affect minions already in play, but those that will be played until the next Regroup phase.
Eregion's Trails however makes (currently) roaming minions strength -3 until the Regroup phase. The strength modifier is what lasts until the Regroup phase, not the check for roaming. When you play the card, all minions that are roaming at that time become strength -3. That strength modification lasts until the Regroup phase (it wouldn't be very helpful otherwise). But if a minion is not roaming, they do not get the modifier when the event is played.
The point raised about Uruk-hai Scout and the fellowship moving makes me even more convinced that it should only apply to the actual site card, and not the generic "current site" regardless of what that card may be.
I dunno...I still have to agree with bibfortuna on this. Eregion's Trails doesn't say that it only makes "(currently)" roaming minions strength -3. It says that it makes roaming minions strength -3. Cards do what they say, but they don't do more than what they say. We have to just go with what the card says, and follow that logically until the "regroup phase" or "end of turn". Otherwise we are making assumptions.
Now I'm really curious to see what happens in GEMP when you play Eregion's Trails and make a minion roaming later :) I have a feeling if it becomes roaming in a skirmish, it will also become strength -3...
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Events have a "snapshot" rule, meaning they only affect cards that fit the criteria at the time the event is played.
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Events have a "snapshot" rule, meaning they only affect cards that fit the criteria at the time the event is played.
Gotcha...so does that mean that We Must Go Warily would only increase the twilight cost of minions currently on the table? The card would really be useless in that case...
If the cards does affect future minions played, then it is not a "snapshot". Either that or we are simply assuming that, in this specific case, it affects cards not in the "snapshot", (although the card doesn't say that) right?
EDIT: Just noticed that if you played Deft in Their Movements, and applied the "snapshot" rule, it wouldn't affect sites that haven't been played yet, correct?
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Yes, I was going to use Deft as an example but didn't want to bring yet another card into the discussion. The event only affects what is currently in play (i.e. the snapshot of the game when it is played). The resulting effect may last longer. I understand how Eregion's Trails is confusing because you are right, it doesn't say "currently" roaming minions. But the fact that it is an event means you apply the text as soon as you play it, i.e. all roaming minions at the time it is played become strength -3. The part that lasts until the Regroup phase is the strength modification. Just like Deft, when you play it, all sites in play are reduced by 2 shadow. That modification lasts until the end of the turn, but it doesn't apply to sites you play later, just like Eregion's Trails doesn't apply to minions that are made roaming later. Hopefully that makes sense? When I first started playing I thought Deft made all sites -2 even those that weren't in play, but when you truly understand the difference between an event and a condition then you understand why it does not affect sites not in play yet.
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Yes, I was going to use Deft as an example but didn't want to bring yet another card into the discussion. The event only affects what is currently in play (i.e. the snapshot of the game when it is played). The resulting effect may last longer. I understand how Eregion's Trails is confusing because you are right, it doesn't say "currently" roaming minions. But the fact that it is an event means you apply the text as soon as you play it, i.e. all roaming minions at the time it is played become strength -3. The part that lasts until the Regroup phase is the strength modification. Just like Deft, when you play it, all sites in play are reduced by 2 shadow. That modification lasts until the end of the turn, but it doesn't apply to sites you play later, just like Eregion's Trails doesn't apply to minions that are made roaming later. Hopefully that makes sense? When I first started playing I thought Deft made all sites -2 even those that weren't in play, but when you truly understand the difference between an event and a condition then you understand why it does not affect sites not in play yet.
So Deft in Their Movements really doesn't affect a new site played? I just have this feeling that the game designers intended for it to. And according to this deduction then We Must Go Warily doesn't do anything, effectively, except for cards that spot the twilight cost of minions already in play (not sure if any such cards exist, though I'm pretty sure they don't in Fellowship block).
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The twilight cost of a card can only be modified as it is coming into play. At all other times, you use the printed number. Using this logic, it seems to me that WMGW would be an exception to the snapshot rule, otherwise it definitely wouldn't do anything.
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The twilight cost of a card can only be modified as it is coming into play. At all other times, you use the printed number. Using this logic, it seems to me that WMGW would be an exception to the snapshot rule, otherwise it definitely wouldn't do anything.
Yeah, it really just doesn't make sense that any other way.
Do you think that, by following the same "spirit" of the card's intention, we could assume Deft in Their Movements would also be a minor exception to the snapshot rule? It feels like Decipher had intended for it to be taken that way at least...otherwise there would be a lot of situations where it would just be a dead useless card.
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Bib: WMGW is not really an exception, since it has a lasting effect. True, it does not impact any cards that are in play. But there are multitudes of cards that affect the cost of things beyond the instance they are used/played. Rohirrim Road and Some Who Resisted immediately come to mind.
dmaz: I agree with you that Deft might have been intended to modify more than just the sites already in play. However I thought there was a clarification at some point that explained it did not (maybe it was just my playgroup that clarified for me). Either way, you can't assume design intent when determining what a card actually does. There are a number of cards in post-movie that I would assume were designed differently than they actually work ;)
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But there are multitudes of cards that affect the cost of things beyond the instance they are used/played. Rohirrim Road and Some Who Resisted immediately come to mind.
I understand what you mean, makes sense. :)
However for those two cards...one is an event that is restricted within its phase, and the other is a site...so not really comparable
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Some Who Resisted is an event, and it impacts cards that aren't already in play. Doesn't matter if it is the same phase or not, this is the same type effect as WMGW. So yes, it is directly comparable.
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Some Who Resisted is an event, and it impacts cards that aren't already in play. Doesn't matter if it is the same phase or not, this is the same type effect as WMGW. So yes, it is directly comparable.
When an event doesn't have "until X phase or end of turn" then it is restricted to the phase in which it is played. In other words, For Some Who Resisted, it is making a blanket statement that all events in that maneuver phase are +2. So you just follow those global rules until the phase is over. WMGW deals with stuff outside of that phase that hasn't happened yet.
Overall what is confusing here is that on one hand we are saying that events have a snapshot rule, and on the other hand we are saying they are not snapshots in these specific cases that we decide, based on either what makes logical sense or just our own personal bias. Can we make up our minds? :P
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Bib: WMGW is not really an exception, since it has a lasting effect. True, it does not impact any cards that are in play. But there are multitudes of cards that affect the cost of things beyond the instance they are used/played. Rohirrim Road and Some Who Resisted immediately come to mind.
dmaz: I agree with you that Deft might have been intended to modify more than just the sites already in play. However I thought there was a clarification at some point that explained it did not (maybe it was just my playgroup that clarified for me). Either way, you can't assume design intent when determining what a card actually does. There are a number of cards in post-movie that I would assume were designed differently than they actually work ;)
Rohirrim Road can only affect the cost of conditions/possessions as they are coming into play. Once they are in play, any cards that check on their twilight costs (e.g. Catapult) will use the printed number only.
Some Who Resisted also only affects the cost of events that are actually played. If Might of Numenor reveals an event from a Shadow player's hand, you still use that event's printed twilight cost.
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We don't have to make up our minds. As bibfortuna's quote says, "all cards do what they say, no more, no less". Events occur instantly, some only function in that instant (i.e. wound a minion), but some impart a lasting effect for a specified period of time (for the current phase, until the regroup phase, etc). We are not deciding based on what makes logical sense - we are following the rules of the game, and what the cards say they do. There are some clarifications necessary, such as bib just pointed out regarding what modifying cost really means, but the cards do what they say, for the duration they say.
Maybe I am doing a poor job of explaining, but "snapshot" is really just a term to help people understand how game text is applied when an action or ability is used/triggered/etc.
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I think I'm starting to understand a little better now.
I think my problem is I wasn't thinking too literally, outside of the practical application of the cards.
Let me know if this is kind of the situation.
For Events (excluding game text of characters, conditions, and sites):
1. When an event is played, apply the snapshot rule.
2. It will be clear right away if the event is taking a "snapshot", applying to cards that are already in play (Eregion's Trails, Pursuit Just Behind, etc).
3. If this is the case, apply all modifiers at the moment the event is played. Circumstances may be modified further to change the modifiers put in place, possibly negating their effect (example: if I play Lightfootedness while the minion archery total is 0, just to get it out of my hand, and then my opponent plays Elevated Fire after me, the minion archery total should be 3, and not 2, right?)
4. If this is not the case, then the event applies to either things that will eventually happen ("If the fellowship moves more than once", etc), or card that will eventually be played like WMGW.
Is this the correct deduction, more or less? Lightfootedness kind of helped me grasp this whole thing a little better. If you play it when the minion archery total is 0, it stays at 0 (you can't make it -1). If the minion archery total is then raised, you shouldn't apply the -1 from Lightfootedness. At least I don't think so...Anyway if I was applying the whole "global" rules for events that I initially believed everything functioned on, then you should in fact apply the -1 from Lightfootedness throughout the rest of the archery phase, and that is almost definitely wrong I think...
Altogether, thank you both very much for helping explain these a little more. Here's some gold for each of your posts that gave me the most profound revelations about it all, so to speak, haha.
At face value, I was a little confused regarding the "global" versus "snapshot" rules thing. I think I understand events a little bit better now :)
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If a value gets reduced below 0, then it gets reset to 0. If the value is then increased by another effect, then the reduction is still taken into account.
So Lightfootedness + Elevated Fire makes the minion archery total 2, assuming no other modifiers.
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If a value gets reduced below 0, then it gets reset to 0. If the value is then increased by another effect, then the reduction is still taken into account.
So Lightfootedness + Elevated Fire makes the minion archery total 2, assuming no other modifiers.
Now I'm really confused...
So I play Lightfootedness. We take a "snapshot", the Minion archery total is 0, it goes to -1 then gets reset to 0. Opponent plays Elevated Fire. Wouldn't his "snapshot" find the archery total to equal 0, then he raises it to three?
If we assume that Lightfootedness doesn't just take a snapshot but affect the "global" settings, and as you said, still applies to future modifiers, until the end of the archery phase, then why would cards like Eregion's Trails not affect a minion who becomes roaming while skirmishing Faramir, Bearer of Quality, as it affects minions until the regroup phase?
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Let me take a stab at that question. So Lightfootedness is just like Some Who Resisted in that it is implied to last until the end of the phase (just like a skirmish event). So the -1 and +3 both last through the archery phase, resulting in a +2 when it comes time to calculate archery total.
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That I do understand...but how do we know when to decide what a card is implying? We could argue that many cards imply lots of things...but just to do that, aren't we making the card actually do more than it just says at face value?
EDIT: In the comprehensive rulebook it uses Eregion's Trails and DITM as two examples of the "snapshot" rule...however it also vaguely says "some" events when referring to events that use the "snapshot" rule...so we just need to use our best judgement when deciding if it is a snapshot or not?
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Anytime an effect modifies a value, that modification will remain on the affected value until the phase ends or you reach the time specified. If multiple effects alter the same value, you apply all modifiers together. The only caveat here is that the final value may not fall below 0.
Here's a scenario:
It is the archery phase. Shadow has no minion archers in play,but he does have Last Days.
FP plays Lightfootedness.
FP uses Greenleaf to pick off a [Men] minion.
Last Days triggers and Shadow player plays Archer of Harad from hand (Ringbearer has 2 burdens)
The minion archery total is now 1. You take into account the 2 points of archery from the Archer of Harad and subtract 1 from Lightfootedness.
Another example. FP has 8 [Elven] events in discard. Círdan is skirmishing a 14 strength minion. Círdan uses his ability once to make the minion 6, and then again to make him -2, reset to 0. If the Shadow player then plays a +2 pump, the minion is still 0 because you must take all modifiers into account. If the Shadow player plays a +3 pump instead, the minion's strength is now 1.