The Last Homely House
General => Council of Cobra => Topic started by: FM on October 05, 2008, 08:11:19 PM
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Just watched Michael Moore's latest documentary and was wondering: what are your thoughts about it?
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haven't seen it, but i've been doing some resaerch into documentary film-making, specifically reading this book called: documentary storytelling (go figure). it does case studies of a some very well-made documentaries like "supersize me" and "murderball". and when it was discussing the importance of not misrepresenting the facts, it was saying that Michael Moore, in a different film, not sicko changed the order of events to make the movie imply things that weren't true. that's about all i know about michael moor.
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haven't seen it, but i've been doing some resaerch into documentary film-making, specifically reading this book called: documentary storytelling (go figure). it does case studies of a some very well-made documentaries like "supersize me" and "murderball". and when it was discussing the importance of not misrepresenting the facts, it was saying that Michael Moore, in a different film, not sicko changed the order of events to make the movie imply things that weren't true. that's about all i know about michael moor.
mm, while that may indeed have happened, I don't think I also should have to point out americans tend to... well, "not take so well" when something "taints" they're position as World Leaders, or about The American Dream, etc.
I mean, I don't actually LIVE there so I didn't watch the american news myself, but I've heard from more than one source (and read, as well) that, during the Olympics, the american media "decided" to switch the criteria for showing the Medal Winners, by using Total Number of Medals as the criteria, while the Olympic Comitee, as well as, well, basically the whole world (INCLUDING the US) always used the Gold Medal criteria (meaning the number of GOLD medals is what counted, followed by Silver, etc, etc). Why? Because while the US won the most medals, China actually won 10-15 MORE Gold Medals than the US did, so they actually "won" the Olympics, US finally got beaten after quite a while, although I've been told that the media there distorted the criteria so as to not tell it to the american people (not that they can't hear from other sources, but anyway...).
I guess this tells a lot about the system (and I say "the" system, and not "your" system, because let's face it, everywhere in the world stuff like this - although not quite like THIS, since it's a pretty silly thing to distort - happens), so I think it's possible Moore distorted facts, but then again, it's pretty possible he didn't, and THAT fact is being distorted by other agencies.
@MR.Lurtzy -> This is essentially a discussion thread, and from what I've gathered, you either have a "personal" quarrel with Moore or you're just one of the average americans that'll kick and scream at anything that "threatens" they're position in any way. So, either join the discussion and share with us WHY he's a disgusting human being (after all, he actually wrote a check for 12,000 dollars for the guy who openly hates him the most so he can keep his Michael Moore -hating website and take care of his wife's health, and shockingly, that does not strike me as "disgusting"...), or I suggest stepping back from the discussion, lest you want to lose your temper.
Oh, and PS, the Topic's name is "Sicko", not "Michael Moore", so although he's part of it, he's by no means central to the discussion.
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I am simply against Sicko's political agenda towards getting socialized healthcare.
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Surely thats not a good reason for calling him a disgusting human being. Maybe 'I quite dislike Michael Moore' or 'I'm not keen on Michael Moore' but calling him a disgusting human being is a little harsh just cos you disagree with his political views.
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I've watched it, and its pretty shocking, but that is Michael Moore's style. Find the most extreme examples of the failings of private health care.
In the UK we have publicized health care, and in Sicko you see the best parts of it. It also has lots of failings, but I do like the fact that I am able to just walk (or take an ambulance) into a hospital without worrying about paying for anything. When I was assaulted recently it would have cost me a ton for the x-rays and prescription painkillers that I had (in Wales we get free prescriptions as well ;D for those in England).
Then again, if I needed a routine operation, I will be waiting for quite some time.
Its swings and roundabouts.
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This whole "im finding things offensive" seems to be taking off of late. Cant see anything wrong that needs deleting. Lighten up, some person you never will meet or have anything to do with made a post on some virtual forum that doesnt matter; its not a reason to get offended.
If mothers or sports teams are involved now THATS different!
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Yeah if there was any Spurs fans on here they would be done! lol!
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this is RIDICULOUS!
@ Gate Troll: hawkeyes comments should not be deleted by a mod, if you can't take that small amount of verbal sparring, what are you doing here at all? this is a WEB FORUM for crying out loud. people can say whatever they want. it's the "freedom of speech" that you hold so dear, and esteem almost as highly as the "right to bear arms".
@ FM on a more civilized discussion: honestly, i didn't watch much of the olympics, but i did hear the news occasionally where they gave the medal counts, and they sort of reported both, sometimes the focus was on total metal count, sometimes on the number of golds. without a doubt people (my friends that is) were keeping track of the golds as well, and hoping we would pull ahead and we just didn't. honestly though, the medals were NOT considered as much as michael phelp's record breaking. that was almost the only thing anyone cared about.
and you are exactly right about this stuff being everywhere in the world.
documentary films have an unwritten code that requires every fact to by backed by at least 2 sources before it is used in the film. and again, i don't recall ever watching a michael moore film, so i'm not trying to attack him, as much as give you some advice to take what he says with a grain of salt.
"Roger & me" was the film he messed with facts, all the events were there, the things in the movie really happened, but the chronology was skewed.
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I'm reading through this and I'm thinking "people in the UK really dont care about politics anything like the Americans do"... I wonder why that is? :-k
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yeah but its true...:) except he isn't saying your an idiot, where you are saying he is.
GAte troll and lurtzy you are a disrespect to conservatives and christians everywhere, and I'm ashamed to be a conservative by your conduct.
did Jesus say, go out into the world and proclaim those who don't believe in me to be idiots?
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@ mm: Never saw that film, I'll try to find it so I can watch it, though. If you want to hear some good media stories from down here, PM me, you'll have a good laugh of it, I'm sure.
@ GT: I won't delete hawkeyes comment for the very same reason I didn't delete MR. Lurtzy's. I could've said his post was offensive, and all, but what good would come out of it? He expressed his opinion, I asked him for a better explanation of it, he gave it to me. Period.
People are just going overboard lately with the whole "I'm offended" thing, and I think you need to lighten up a bit. If you feel offended when people post their opinions and it contradicts yours, then DON'T READ DISCUSSION TOPICS, #$&*@! IT! Ok, I'm feeling better now. But of course, it something DOES turn out to be offensive, I'll not even think twice before deleting it, did I make myself clear?
hawkeyes comment is a perfectly good example on how you CAN be sarcastic or express your point of view WITHOUT being offensive, but when I read someone saying "Wow, GT, you're really being an idiot" (don't remember who made the comment, though), as I read in another topic, THAT'S going overboard. So, from now on, discuss nicely or do not discuss at all. I don't like being a nazi and going about outright deleting posts, but I'll sure do it if I deem it necessary.
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AMEN! FM speaks the TRUTH!!
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I'm finding I agree with SoP on this flame war here. I split the thread because its detracting from the point of the original thread and is primarily a handful of people of opposing views that prefer insulting each other over rational debate.
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back on topic: Regarding sicko, I haven't see it so can't say much. I have heard he seemed to glorify ohhh I don't know what word to use...federalized? healthcare without really stating the drawbacks of it...which I think we can all agree there are some.
but afterall, since when has an unbiased documentary been made? I know the last right-wing leaning one I saw ( expelled) certainly wasn't the model of fairness.
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EVERY system, and I mean EVERY, about ANYTHING, has flaws, has ups and downs. Thing is, the north-american healthcare system's flaws are OVERWHELMING, this is the major point he makes in the film. For instance, Public Healthcare in Brazil sucks. Badly. But in here, with all the problems you might point out, someone does not die because their insurance company denied to pay for their treatment and it costs 50,000 dollars, or is still experimental. And I think this is something to take notice.
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Back on topic... I do not like Moore because of the way he perverts the facts, like with the cuban healthcare system. I guess I just don't like liars. [-X
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SOP mentioned bias in documentaries. and yeah, that is another thing inherent in these types of films. EVERY documentary has bias, and takes one side or the other on an issue. EVERY documentary, by the nature of these films, takes a specific position, viewpoint, or argument on the subject.
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I'm sorry, how exactly did he pervert anything with the Cuban Healthcare System? My mother, father, stepfather, aunt, uncle and godmother are all doctors, so I'm kind of into it a bit due to being around them, and the Cuban Healthcare System really IS among the best on the planet (even if the country might have SERIOUS other issues), doctors from A LOT of countries go there to study and perfect themselves. I happen to have a friend who just recently became a doctor himself, and he also went there to study their system. Moore didn't lie a single bit about it, sorry to burst your bubble.
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FM, i'm assuming you are directing your reply to lurtzy, but in case it was to me, i want to be clear that i never said he perverted the facts in sicko.
-mm
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From ABC:
"In a 20/20 report Stossel provided evidence that typical Cubans citizens receive poor health care, and only richer ones who can pay for the care shown in Sicko receive it. When Moore cited a United Nations report that contradicted this, Stossel replied that the U.N. merely repeated what the Cuban government reported, and suggested that the Cuban dictatorship is likely to suppress unfavorable information. Stossel also presented testimonials that lower Cuban infant mortality rates are due to pregnant women receiving abortions if the fetus shows any sign of problems, and that infants who die hours after birth are not recorded in mortality rates. When Moore claimed the C.I.A. corroborated his assertions, Stossel responded that the C.I.A. denied this, and that their data contradict Moore's assertion."
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From ABC:
"In a 20/20 report Stossel provided evidence that typical Cubans citizens receive poor health care, and only richer ones who can pay for the care shown in Sicko receive it. When Moore cited a United Nations report that contradicted this, Stossel replied that the U.N. merely repeated what the Cuban government reported, and suggested that the Cuban dictatorship is likely to suppress unfavorable information. Stossel also presented testimonials that lower Cuban infant mortality rates are due to pregnant women receiving abortions if the fetus shows any sign of problems, and that infants who die hours after birth are not recorded in mortality rates. When Moore claimed the C.I.A. corroborated his assertions, Stossel responded that the C.I.A. denied this, and that their data contradict Moore's assertion."
So, given both FM's information and Lurtzy's, Apparently the Cubans have excellent healthcare for those who actually receive it. Which makes it a great place for doctors to study healthcare. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is good.
I should point out that I know literally nothing about the Cuban healthcare system aside from what I just now read in your posts. I'm just trying to point out a possible reconciliation of the two bits of evidence. I haven't even read the first page of the topic, let alone seen Sicko or have any idea what Moore says in it. ;)
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Well, like I said, every system hgas flaws, and I'm pretty sure what is shown in Sicko IS the best of the best. But about the mortality rate, and that healthcare is poor for everyone else, that does not proceed, at least not from what I've heard from some friends who actually lived there for some time. Also, respected medical papers here corroborate that the Cuban healthcare system is one of the best, and mortality rate IS pretty low, lower than Brazil and the US, as far as I can remember.
Lurtzy, I have to agree with you what Sicko shows is PROBABLY the best they have, perhaps even stretching it out a little, but that doesn't mean the "actual" reality is too worse. I still believe the movie raises a valid point, and seriously, as I said before, Public Healthcare in Brazil sucks, so to speak, but if a guy walks in the ER with 2 missing fingers, the doctors won't presente him with a choice of "Which one can you pay for?".
You can ask my fellow brazilians, I'll level with you. If a certain medicine is not within the Public Healthcare System's list, the government denies it, and you have to sue the government to get it, but once you do, you DO get it, no matter HOW MUCH it costs and if it is or not experimental (of course, provided there is no cheaper alternative with the exact same result, then you get the cheaper one). Of course, the government attorneys always say that "If we keep paying for this, we'll bankrupt the State, blah blah blah", but the best response I've heard so far was from one of my teachers, who happens to be a Judge (and so, gives away sentences contrary to the government as such): "They always say we are going to bankrupt the State. So far, I've NEVER seen or read, in all of our history, about the State ACTUALLY bankrupting over this, so, screw that, it's in the Constitution, they'd better abide by it!".