The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Chamber of Mazarbul => Topic started by: Durin's Heir on September 13, 2015, 09:04:13 AM
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I've been toying with the idea of an Elrond Ringbearer. After all, at the Council he was the most appropiate between the Elves, and Galadriel wasn't even present. Of course, the drawback must be very high due to his high attributes and tools...
The idea is to depict Elrond as a selfless and wise ringbearer, who knows he's bringing doom to his own domain by destroying the power that sustains the Three Elven Rings, but must put his own interests behind those of the whole Middle Earth.
[4] •Elrond, Bearer of Hopes [Elven]
Companion • Elf
Strength 8
Vitality 4
Ringed Resistance 7
While Elrond is the Ring-bearer and has X resistance, each time the fellowship moves add 3 add 2 burdens or discard X cards from hand.
Regroup: Discard an [Elven] artifact to remove a burden heal a character or discard a condition (limit 2).
"'...for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'"
Each time you move you must discard a good bunch of cards (showing Elrond's uncomfort and worry) or add 3 add 2 burdens and thus make him easier to corrupt (or kill by burden-dependant cards). So the higher is his resistance, the more cards you'll need to discard and that makes resistance bonuses counterproductive (Phial, Ring of Rings, Scroll of Isildur...). Double moves will be hard to achieve, Lembas and other cards to reconcile can be useful but then you need a huge draw deck.
If Elrond's resistance is low, you'll need to discard less cards when moving and that allows for more double moves, but he'll be very likely to succumb to the Ring.
Hope you like it. Please comment!
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The problem with discarding is that you barely can play anything at all during the fellowship phase, or you'll get smashed with burdens in no time. I think this is too harsh of a setback. Adding 3 burdens is okay, but maybe Elrond should implement a new thing that no other ring-bearer has. Maybe stuff like reducing the hand size per turn by 1 or working with region specific text.
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You make a good point. I'd like to keep the "resistance X" as a punishment (and preferably related to discarding cards, but that can be changed), to make Elrond's base resistance be high -unlike most ARBs- but also make that resolution to destroy the Ring cause him harm. That's the dynamic and dual nature I want him to have.
With the current text, you can still bid 3 (or 2 + Smeagol) to reduce the "discard X cards" toll to 4, and play more cards during the fellowship phase, though that makes you vulnerable to corruption or burden-triggered cards.
I think I'll reduce the burden toll to 2 only, 2 burdens for each move is still a heavy cost (8 moves = 16 burdens; only 4 moves will corrupt him) but allows to play cards in fellowship phase with a lower punishment, while keeping the "deplete yourself or corrupt yourself" idea. Then, the Regroup skill shouldn't remove burdens, to balance it a bit.
[4] •Elrond, Bearer of Hopes [Elven]
Companion • Elf
Strength 8
Vitality 4
Ringed Resistance 7
While Elrond is the Ring-bearer and has X resistance, each time the fellowship moves add 3 add 2 burdens or discard X cards from hand.
Regroup: Discard an [Elven] artifact to remove a burden heal a character or discard a condition.
Elrond is a very strong character, but hasn't really too many specific toys. Gimli, Boromir, Gandalf all have more specific tricks and tools. Elrond has Vilya, Hadafang, Master of Healing and... strength 8, vitality 4. And can use the Phial, Elven Cloak, Asfaloth, Elven Bow, Elf Song... as any other elf. What I mean is, he shouldn't necessarily have a 3-burdens toll as Gandalf. That was a mistake.
Thanks Euk for your review. ;)
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I like it, but I think the regroup action should pack a little more punch, give people a reason to use him over Galadriel. I don't know, I guess the ability to play LR and have an elf RB is pretty insane on its own, and there are some pretty sweet versions of galadriel. I'm not sure what I'd change it to, but discarding an artifact seems a steep cost.
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Is this Movie Block or Expanded Format? If it's Expanded, I can see Woodhall Elf being very helpful :)
At first, the card punishment seemed harsh to me, Gandalf RB only has to discard 2 cards, and Elrond will likely be doing at least twice that much. On the other hand, one could just discard their shadow cards for him, and he could solo fairly well, at least initially. And of course card discard can be desirable in its own right, particularly for decks with lots of duplicate cards (Deceived Wizards ;)). Discarding Artifacts is also not so bad when you consider one could just chuck in tonnes of duplicates, play them if discarded, and ditch with his ability otherwise (Although that almost gives you GLR level of condition discard). Overall, I like this card. :up: I'm actually more concerned about it being overpowered that underpowered :-k
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Flavor-wise, Elrond doesn't strike me as a ring-bearer because he is so beyond the quest. Isildur fails, in destroying the ring, but Elrond (and Cirdan) also fail by allowing Isildur to keep it. No witnesses, etc.
As for the text of the card, definitely need a limit to the regroup text as there are eight [Elven] artifacts that could potentially be in play on a given turn.
Honestly, there is no reason to play Galadriel, Bearer of Wisdom over any version of this card, no matter the drawback, as it introduces the ability to start Galadriel, Lady Redeemed.
I think that, were you going to have an Elrond ring-bearer, his text should be more supportive of the Last Alliance. I'm thinking:
Each time the fellowship moves, exert two [Gondor] Men. If you cannot spot two [Gondor] men, discard your hand or add four burdens.
At the start of the regroup phase, you may discard an [Elven] artifact to heal a companion or discard a condition attached to a companion.
I think a steep penalty needs to be in line with using Elrond.
-wtk
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I'm happy to see that amount of opinions. Thanks, keep posting! ;D
I think the current penalty is heavy. If you choose discard you make Elven Sword and initiative loops unviable and thus cripple some Elven power. It also weakens your Shadow, your FP events and FP support cards. The alternative is adding 2 burdens, which can be peeled by FP cards but then you'll need to focus solely on that option, otherwise you won't have cards in hand to do both burden removal (which maintains a high resistance) and at times discard 4 to 7 cards from hand. Double moving will be always perilous and uncomfortable. So the idea is to show Elrond worried and unfocused with his task.
The risk is always big. If you add burdens, corruption Shadows will feast on you. If you discard you make your reaction abilities very weak, and weaken your Shadow side which forces you to double move often. So discard Shadows will unwittingly corrupt him; corruption Shadows can deck him out. Verily I Come blocks one side, Black Breath blocks the other. Desperate Defense of the Ring hits him on both.
About Galadriel LR, there is a lot of ways to get rid of her. Terrible As the Dawn, Over the Isen, Saruman SotE (my favourite), Gorgoroth Assassin... This Elrond does nothing to save her if such counters hit the board.
Perhaps the best use of GLR is starting her + Cirdan. Cirdan will get a good support from Elrond: the discard toll can feed him, while the Regroup skill can heal his exertions (if you have enough artifacts).
@Ket the Jet: Your idea of a limit is interesting. Although [Elven] artifacts are expensive and will empty your hand, which forces you too add burdens or reduce his resistance. That's the reason I removed the burden erasing part of the regroup skill. And the specificity of the [Elven] artifacts makes it less viable than it seems; mostly for fellowships with good drawing and strong Elven presence (pure Elves, Shoulder to Shoulder, The Grey Pilgrim). Anyway, adding "(limit 2)" won't hurt anyone. :up:
This Elrond isn't meant to portray his participation in the Siege of Barad-Dur with the Last Alliance, but instead a what if (like each ARB) regarding the Council of Elrond, if the Ring was going to be carried by an Elf. Elrond was the best option there (Wise, strong, fearless and he knew Mordor's topography in presence). In the late 3rd Age he wasn't only fond to Elves and Numenoreans, but also to Istari, Dwarves and mostly to Hobbits. So shouldn't be [Gondor] enforced.
Although in another context your idea would be neat. You should make your own Elrond ARB depicting his role in the Last Alliance. I'd change your wording a bit: "If you cannot spot 2 [Gondor] men" allows to spot 2 exhausted Gondorians (even Gondorian Merchant) if all [Gondor] Men are exhausted, so you don't pay any cost. I'd change it to simply "If you cannot,". That way you can get a really cool card. :up:
@Not a Zombie: I think the main reason to play this ARB over Galadriel is, well, he can be a real beast and doesn't have a skirmish penalty to worry: base str 8 vit 4, SaWtC str+2, Elven Sword str+1 (or Hadafang str+2), Asfaloth str+2, Naith Longbow str+1, O Elbereth Gilthoniel str+1, tToGG vit +1, Vilya vit +1... Strength 15/16, Vitality 6. So the Shadow player must forget about overwhelming him at first sites, and can stand a while against grind and archery if you use Hosts of the Last Alliance, Galadriel LotGW and even Elven Cloak.
He can also use the machine gun pack (Elven Bow, tSotB, ATAR, tToGG, Vilya, Aiglos) as Galadriel. But with +1 vitality.
His almost-solo potential is good therefore. But he'll need some companions to counter the moving penalty. Gandalf tGP, Dwarves, Alliance Reforged... to draw, or Jarnsmid BE, Sam SoH, bouncing Hobbits, Home and Hearth... to control burdens.
@Dictionary: You got a good question. I guess it's for both Movie and Expanded, though I know little of the latter.
Yes, as you point out, he'll be a beast at the first sites, even by himself. And you can discard your extra copies of Shadow cards, yes. And feed Cirdan. But the risk is always big: discard Shadows corrupt you, corruption Shadows deck you out. You need to carry counters to both perils. And you also must use them wisely, will require a lot of uncomfortable decisions. Shadows that play from discard, of that stop double moves, will pair well with this ARB.
Woodhall Elf, Careful Study and Lembas / Lembas Bread will help him. Which adds to the flavour I think.
Again, thanks for your comments.