The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Lothlórien => Movie => Topic started by: ket_the_jet on August 13, 2009, 01:43:50 PM
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Starting:
Frodo, Old Bilbo's Heir
The One Ring, Such a Weight to Carry
Gimli, Feared Axeman
Sindri, Dwarven Lord
Free Peoples (37):
Durin III, Dwarven Lord x2
Linnar, Dwarven Lord x2
Aragorn, Ranger of the North
Faramir, Son of Denethor
Sam, Son of Hamfast
Grimir, Dwarven Elder
Bounder
Sting, Bane of the Eight Legs
Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon
Axe of Erebor x2
Dwarven Axe x2
Ring of Fury x2
Ring of Guile
Ring of Accretion
Dwarven Heart x2
Ever My Heart Rises
Preparations x2
Slaked Thirsts x3
Battle Tested x3
Rest By Blind Night x3
Blood Runs Chill x2
Shadow (37):
Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul x2
The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow x3
Host of Moria, Legion of the Underdeeps x2
Guard Commander x2
Goblin Runner x4
Goblin Sneak x4
Goblin Scavengers x4
Goblin Scrabbler x3
Goblin Scimitar x4
Goblin Armory x4
Goblin Swarms x3
They Are Coming x2
Sitepath:
Dunharrow Plateau
Rohirrim Camp
Hall of the Kings
Anduin Banks*
Steward's Tomb*
Minas Tirith First Circle
Osgiliath Crossing
Morgulduin
Haunted Pass
A lot of swarm decks just like to throw everything out there again and again. But let's face it. Unless you have the Perfect Swarm/Storm, then you are just wasting minions. That's why Goblin Sneak is so key. He allows you to throw the guys who do get killed before getting stacked on Goblin Swarms on the bottom of your draw deck. It is a relatively short deck, so you are guaranteed to have a nice swarm by site seven or eight.
Ulaire Enquea is used to avoid those guys who throw out every companion in the book when they see a swarm deck. I find it to be wildly effective.
As for the free people, I may only have five total companions (plus cannon fodder in the recently added: Aragorn, Ranger of the North and Sam, Son of Hamfast), but I regularly play games where none of them die. Dwarven Heart, coupled with Axe of Erebor is an easy way to heal dwarves, and by only having an axe and a ring each (sorry Sindri, we're one ring short!), I avoid Grima, Wormtongue. Sindri allows me to play Battle Tested that gets stacked on Preparations or Ever My Heart Rises and Slaked Thirsts is just a fantastic card for cycling and direct exerting.
A note, however, is that I use Preparations a little differently than most Dwarf-players do. I use Preparations to stack cards I don't need early in the game (Aragorn, Ranger of the North, Faramir, Son of Denethor, and Sam, Son of Hamfast, The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow) and then couple that with Rest By Blind Night to shuffle that back into my draw deck. I mean, I use the wounding stuff too, but sometimes when you draw that Sam, Son of Hamfast in the first hand...well, you understand. On that note, I actually use Dunharrow Plateau to grab Ever My Heart Rises.
Thoughts appreciated.
-wtk
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Just add Sam, Son of Hamfast for the burdens. Then, I don't understand why you use so many Guard Commander.
Since you want people to rate it... I'd say the fellowship looks good... but the shadow looks too weak.
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I would replace 1 balrog with 1 host of moria if you have it.
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For online play you won't be able to use Relics of Moria as it is banned (I think), but at home its up to your player group. I'll give it five stars, because although the shadow needs a bit of work (in my opinion), the fellowship is pretty awesome. One thing I may add though: put in some version of smeagol, I recommend either poor creature or slinker to compliment sting.
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I agree with c10ck my problem with goblin commander is that his cost is high for a swarm and the point of a swarm is to throw out as many minions as possible not use twilight on strength bonuses definitely dump the sting and add a sam son of hamfast instead, also your swarm has only 8 minions that cost less than 3 add more cards like goblin backstabber, goblin walllcrawler, moria scout, goblin pursuer and the like
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Who/what should be the last free people's card I add?
*Cough*Slinker*Cough*
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To whomever gave it a three, can you explain why? I'd prefer anyone who votes please explain your vote.
-wtk
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I gave it a three, but it was an accident; I meant to click four. [Mumble]Stupid batteries in wireless mouse...[/mumble]
I didn't give it a 5 because I have been playtesting this deck for the last 3-4 days and I have found that the fellowship needs work. The dwarves lose way too many skirmishes because there aren't enough pumps/posessions (minion wound prevention is frustrating with Preparations), Ever My Heart Rises is inefficient with the swarm because key minions (Host of Moria, Goblin Scavenger) often get stacked on it and if I don't have Rest By Blind Night handy, it can screw up my Shadow phase. Dwarven Heart has proven absolutely useless unless I have RbBN in the same hand, because often 2 turns go by before I get it (thus exerting the companion who bears it twice and defeating the point altogether) and causes clogging if I'm waiting for one or the other. Maybe I'm just getting unlucky, but it's not really working out for me. The fellowship needs more possessions and more skirmish-phase pumps that can be stacked on conditions so Sindri, DL is actually useful.
I will say however that Slaked Thirsts has proven very effective both for cycling and direct exerting, and Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon is beautiful on Durin III if threats are out. I'd toss 1 Axe of Erebor for 1 Trusted Weapon instead. Also, Aragorn and Faramir have been lifesavers as fellowship fodder, especially at the higher sites or while attempting a two-move win to site 9.
As for the Shadow... Wow. I've always really liked Moria Swarm because they're so efficient and simple to play, but this shadow side is working especially well for me. The Balrog, ToFaS tossed into a swarm of 5-6 minions along with Host of Moria has worked great, and I almost always have the twilight for it because of Goblin Armories. They Are Coming is VITAL for this deck and for cycling!!! I've never been a particularly big fan of that card but I've definitely been proven wrong here. Surprisingly, while most of the minions are fairly weak, it works out well at later sites because when they get discarded They Are Coming brings the important ones back (Goblin Runner) that add that last extra twilight to bring out HoM or use Guard Commander's skirmish ability.
Overall I like the Shadow, and the FP side is good, the cycling is good... it just needs some adjustments.
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Dwarven Heart is amazing with Axe of Erebor! That is the combination you are missing!
I think that I have to keep two Axe of Erebor in there; Durin is nice, but a Dwarven Axe works just fine until you get the special axe.
I am glad you liked the deck in general and even more glad you play-tested it. But think again on Axe of Erebor. It allows you to discard the minions you stack on Ever My Heart Rises and allows you to discard Dwarven Heart. I think that is what you are missing!
-wtk
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You're right, I can't believe I missed that. I was thinking too hard about the obvious option (RbBN to remove Dwarven Heart and/or get my minions off of EMHR) that I missed the fact that Gimli's Axe, AoE is more efficient.
Even still, I think more skirmish events are needed against big minions. These dwarves really struggle against trolls or super-boosted Corsairs, IMHO. Half of what makes dwarves fun is that they can get so beefy with all the cheap possessions they can have. Durin could be a REAL beast if you have a hand axe or Book of Mazarbul in there.
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Durin could be a REAL beast if you have a hand axe or Book of Mazarbul in there.
Dwarven Armor, Dwarven Bracers, etc.
Yeah...I guess I am trying to avoid Grima, Wormtongue and the likes. I feel like between Axe of Erebor and stacked Battle Tested, I can keep my companions alive. That's all you really need with a swarm like this!
Anyways, Axe of Erebor is amazing. Play-test some more and report back, soldier!
-wtk
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I know Lord of Moria is kind of an expensive condition, but to have 2 of those out (or even just 1) with Gimli fully loaded is GREAT with Honed. I only recommend that because I feel there just aren't enough pumps in this deck still, and if you don't have Honed available, you can still use LoM as fodder for AoE.
Not really sure where that would fit in, but just a thought.
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Well, here's how I usually stack my companions:
Gimli, Feared Axeman with Axe of Erebor and Ring of Accretion
Durin III, Dwarven Lord with Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon and Ring of Fury
Linnar, Dwarven Lord with Dwarven Axe and Ring of Guile
Sindri, Dwarven Lord with Dwarven Axe
Keep in mind that I can recycle my pump with Preparations and Sindri, Dwarven Lord. And to reiterate, I don't care about winning skirmishes. I just want to survive long enough to set up the perfect swarm.
And, on record, I cannot think of any deck that I would run Lord of Moria in to be honest. I thought that was great in Fellowship block and maybe Towers Standard, but I don't really think it is worth [2]. Even with Gimli, Bearer of Grudges. If Saruman's Power is played, well, then you can be corrupted just because you were relying on conditions to keep you from being corrupted. Same reason I don't play The Tale of Gil-Galad, The Saga of Elendil, Endurance of Dwarves, or Boromir, My Brother in any of my decks.
But I like seeing other thoughts on the deck.
-wtk
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This is true. And just to make a point, these dwarves DO do a pretty darn good job of surviving; I've just noticed that against big minions (i.e. fierce trolls) they struggle. Then again I'm still learning to use the deck, so... There have been some close calls, but more often than not it comes out on top by site 9, even vs. choke. I've only lost once and that was my first game with this deck so obviously part of that was my own fault.
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Sometimes the healing isn't the problem. BRC helps out a lot but because you don't have heavy hitters, I mean Durin is max strength 13, maybe 16 with an event, but he is there also to protect the others. So he is likely to take out the strongest minions, or he is taking one for the team so another doesn't get overwhelmed. My point is that there is a possibility that there will be minions left and that an opponent will discard those minions instead of the keyconditions or possessions. And what if you don't get Ring of Fury right from the start, you will be in trouble I assume. So I don't think it is too strong and that some strong decks will turn out to be stronger. I like dwarves more as they are, simple, not too intelligent and megastrong...
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Wait...are you the one star or the four stars? (I am not offended either way).
If you don't end up with Ring of Fury from the start, give Durin III another ring and then transfer it once Ring of Fury comes up. I recently switched to The One Ring, The Binding Ring for a few games to test out...I would say that is a preference thing...one extra strength against Frodo or the ability to grab Ring of Fury if you use it to heal a group of Dwarves.
Ring of Fury by no means is the key to this deck at all. It is a really nice card, but this deck would probably be fine with just one of them.
-wtk
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4 stars, cause I like the idea. I'm not saying that ring of fury is key, but with healing as the only real 'catch' in this deck you could be in trouble vs condition/possession based decks. And to at least discard some shadowcards effectively, you need the damage....
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Fair enough. I don't want to sound like I am beating a dead horse, but many of my fellowships are built to cater to the Shadow side, with some ability to run late in the game if necessary.
Edit: To put a little more thought into it, think beyond Lord of the Rings TCG...maybe at a game like Magic: The Gathering or Versus System. In these games, "stall" decks are completely viable options. In the case of Versus, I might stall until turn six, seven, eight, or even later to get out a character that could then wipe out the rest of the board. Same goes for Magic, the Gathering. So I guess the actual purpose of these Dwarves is to stall for my [Moria] side to get into shape enough to slay my enemies. This often is done at site five (four if really lucky), but if it happens at seven, eight, or even nine I am still prepared and my free peoples can survive out the turns.
To whomever rated this deck a 1, could you explain why?
-wtk
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I still think this shadow side is the best version of a moria swarm I have ever seen/played with. If I had the cards, I'd build this deck in real life.
Dwarf side still needs a lot of work though, IMHO... After a few more games I've realized the incredible value of Dwarven Heart and AoE, however one is far less effective without the other (for obvious reasons). I've found myself discarding DH out of desperation to draw a good shadow hand only to draw AoE in the next hand... So I might recommend adding more of one or the other.
Another method of "stalling" as you put it is to get your dwarves to survive more skirmishes!! They lose way too often. I find myself burning through companions just to survive long enough to overwhelm my opponent with orcs. I've played about 20 games with this deck now and these dwarves lose about 2/3rds of all their skirmishes, with the exception of a few wipeouts against certain shadow sides (i.e. discard-to-wound Isengard orcs get crushed by dwarves).
The alternative to this (and an alternative that still promotes cycling) is to go with the pump-up route as opposed to using all these conditions and regroup events... Throw in a ton more skirmish pumps and I guarantee your dwarves will survive longer. Maybe it's just the way I'm playing them, but it's frustrating to have such a nice shadow side become useless because the fellowship just doesn't last. And if you're discarding 2 skirmish events every turn and the re-stacking them on Preparations (which I would recommending adding 1 more of, by the way), you'll be cycling well enough to not have to use EMHR at all.
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The alternative to this (and an alternative that still promotes cycling) is to go with the pump-up route as opposed to using all these conditions and regroup events... Throw in a ton more skirmish pumps and I guarantee your dwarves will survive longer. Maybe it's just the way I'm playing them, but it's frustrating to have such a nice shadow side become useless because the fellowship just doesn't last. And if you're discarding 2 skirmish events every turn and the re-stacking them on Preparations (which I would recommending adding 1 more of, by the way), you'll be cycling well enough to not have to use EMHR at all.
To be honest, skirmish events stifle this deck because then you are holding those as opposed to [Moria] Orcs.
Ever My Heart Rises is there for a quick fellowship set up (assuming you get the start). Nothing better than not drawing #$&*@!, then using EMHR and ending up with Durin III, Axe of Erebor, etc...
I don't know. I'd love to play against you with my deck and you can use whichever deck you want.
-wtk
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To be honest, skirmish events stifle this deck because then you are holding those as opposed to Moria Orcs.
Not with Preparations; that's the cool thing about the way you have this set up. If you can get a bunch of events stacked on Preparations early, you don't have to hold the cards in your hand... More than that, this deck calls for very aggressive cycling during the regroup phase, so it's rare for me to hold onto fellowship cards if my shadow is coming up.
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Well, the beautiful thing about this game is that people can all have different decks. I think I am happy with the balance I have created with my deck but would be interested in seeing how yours turns out. Hopefully you aren't adding many cards because the Shadow side is on a careful balance, but if you figure out cards that can be taken out, more power to you.
I find the easiest way to kill a larger minion (Easterling Army, Balrog, Witch-King, etc.) is a combination of Slaked Thirsts (when stacked) and Preparations. But if you prefer the pumps side, go ahead. I would just hope that you don't get stuck in a Shadow phase with six pumps and companions and no helpful minions.
-wtk
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I find the easiest way to kill a larger minion (Easterling Army, Balrog, Witch-King, etc.) is a combination of Slaked Thirsts (when stacked) and Preparations. But if you prefer the pumps side, go ahead. I would just hope that you don't get stuck in a Shadow phase with six pumps and companions and no helpful minions.
That's already happened twice with this deck as it is, and that's a risk no matter what, so I'm not as concerned about that...
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I built and used this (a little differently), it is fun deck to play and very strong.
For the fellowship the only change I made was -1 Rest By Blind Night, +1 Slaked Thirsts.
Shadow -3 Goblin Scrabbler, -1 Guard Commander, +3 Moria Scout, +1 Host of Moria, LOTU.
I won a very close game against Pepin using Gandalf Dwarves / Saruman's Snows Berserkers.
Very nice deck.
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I like the deck, I give it a five but I have one question. Why Guard Commander? The pump isn't that could, plus it uses a lot of twilight. I would go with Ancient Chieftain or Host of Moria LUTU. Also I like to use the underdeeps of moria in combination with Goblin Sneak, it is a pretty nice combo but I dunno. In the past it has helped me set up my swarm nicely.
Also I don't understand why shotgun enquea is a staple in most swarm decks... Could someone clear that up for me? Personally I think he to high of twilight cost, and most people are paranoid about running six comps anyways so they don't even put extras in their deck. And it is a really has a high twilight cost... It seems to me that this card would mostly be waisted and would only help in certain situations... Backstabber+ Hosts of Moria seems to kill their extra companion, then I just stack on swarms for l8ter. Also I use underdeeps wich benefits greatly from the huge twilight big freeps tend to dish out.
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enquea insures that they will have about 5 companions, and 5 companions are a lot easier to swarm then 6-9
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enquea insures that they will have about 5 companions, and 5 companions are a lot easier to swarm then 6-9
Right, I see the logic but I don't know if it is so good to pack Enquea. Most people don't play with a lot of companions do they? I was always taught not to break the rule of five (bbbad, bad things happen). Thanks.
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Guard Commander is cheaper than Ancient Chieftain and the pump is fantastic. I can regularly play every single minion in the deck at one site and generate 15 or so extra twilight. So he's pretty helpful.
The Underdeeps of Moria wouldn't work with this deck, because it is shuffled so regularly with Rest By Blind Night. If a simple swarm at site four isn't enough to beat your opponent, then you stack all of the minions on Preparations and shuffle them back into your deck with Rest By Blind Night. You can easily swarm someone at five or seven or eight.
Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul is fantastic for keeping the amount of companions low. The easiest solution to beating swarm is to play nine companions. Shotgun Enquea removes that from the possibility.
I appreciate you all reviving this topic from the dead, but this deck is pro. I can honestly say there is nothing that could be done to make this deck better.
-wtk
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I'd like to see a Goblin Warrior in there, 2 Goblin Scrabbler should be enough.
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Elven conditions, particularly The Splendor of Their Banners and Glimpse of Fate are much more obnoxious than even the [Moria]-targeting [Dwarven] conditions.
Anyways, with the exception of directed wounding decks with Gimli, Bearer of Grudges, most decks use Gimli, Feared Axeman.
-wtk
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I agree, but I think that 3 Scrabbler is too much.
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A third Host of Moria I think would be great, but you're right no changes are needed, this deck rocks. I gave it a 4 only because I would probably never give a deck a 5.
Sleep, Caradhras can ruin things, why I think a third Host could be nice to grab back an extra Goblin Armory.
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3 Goblin Scrabbler is largely a meta decision, but Glimpse of Fate can be the difference between a win and a loss. Not to mention other popular (and semi-popular) [Elven] events like The Splendor of Their Banners, Shake Off the Shadow, and even Shadow Between (though it is not as big a deal).
I found three Host of Moria to be too much. They are pretty easy to stack and recycle since anything that gets discarded can be brought back via Preparations and Rest By Blind Night (and Ring of Guile continues the cycling).
-wtk
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Im currently using a dwarf deck as well(mine's outdated) and I'm loving this build.
Im looking for Durin, Sindri and Linnar to update my deck as well. Currently using Dain, Grimir and Gloin.
Anyways, I would suggest that you throw out Aragorn, Ranger of the North for Aragorn, Heir of Elendil . Also, just a question...with Rest by Blind Night, can you also shuffle conditions from the discard pile back into the draw deck? or just conditions in play?
My current build focuses Gimli, Dain Ironfoot and Gloin(cause I have no choice). I got Proud and Able (used to be Lord of Moria) to ensure they kill all minions. Then, a couple of Till Durin Wakes Again and I flooded my site path with underground sites. I think it allows me to double move if I have to...in case my shadow is getting creamed.
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The Aragorn you cited is not Movie Block eligible.
Actually it is, but Ranger of The North is just way better as a splash companion. Why settle for Defender+1 when you can have Defender+3...
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Lol. I see your point MDib.
looks like a perfect deck then ket..btw, what do use rest by blind night for?
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As one way (Axe of Erebor) to get rid of Dwarven Heart.
To get minions stacked on Ever My Heart Rises back into my deck.
If I can't swarm by five, I discard all my minions, stack them on Preparations at 7 or 8, then shuffle them back in.
The perfect swarm.
-wtk
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question: I also use trusted weapon, and I've been thinking of taking it out and putting in another dwarven axe instead (0 cost). How do you maximize Gimli's battle axe? How do u put threats?
Also, what sites do u use, if u dont mind me asking..
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The site path is listed under the Shadow for the deck.
You can easily add threats at any site 3 in King block. Or you could let your opponent add them.
-wtk
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tried playing with this deck... i had trouble against a wounding deck...anyways, thats just my experience.
anyways, i found that slaked thirst was very effective against Grima and Enquea so that's a plus there.
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been play testing this deck a few more times...here are some of my findings:
1. maybe it's just my the matchups i get, but seems i am seldom able to use faramir in this deck. mostly against "exert to wound" minions, but faramir loses anyways so that's 1 wound either way. maybe switching him to a greenleaf?
2. slaked thirst is only effective against minions that need to exert (saruman, enquea,llom , grima and a lot others actually) BUT is ineffective against big minions like sauron, balrog and they can really cause trouble if you happen to be short on pumps.
I understand this deck is really good already, but I think switching faramir for greenleaf adds extra protection against big minions (ex. 2 slaked thirst to exhaust sauron, greenleaf for the kill)
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Faramir is a last-ditch companion. Also, you can use Preparations to kill big minions. Use all of a card's text!
-wtk
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lol chill ket. hehehe
now, it gets a 5 hehehe
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I would say that I initially discard Faramir in about ninety percent of games that I draw him before site 5. Stack him on a Preparations and recycle with Rest By Blind Night if you think you have to, but there is no reason to hold he or Aragorn unless you abandon the Shadow kill and are winning the race to nine.
-wtk
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Granted all suggestions, the free peoples seem solid apart from a singular card; Faramir, Son of Denethor. Seems like a waste of space as you have Aragorn, Ranger of the North for that precise purpose. Is Faramir really necessary? - Greenleaf may be a better fit, but is it at all worth having another companion? If your opponent begins, you're of to a "bad" start having to wait for conditions rather than play them with your site 1. Why not replace Faramir/greenleaf with another Ever My Heart Rises, getting the stacking combos working faster? - Or even a dwarven heart against wounding shadows?
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Faramir, Son of Denethor does not need to be played. In fact, I rarely do. But sometimes it is nice to know that he's in the discard pile where I can stack him on Preparations and then cycle him back into the draw deck with Rest By Blind Night if I think I'll need another companion.
Ever My Heart Rises is a near lock with a bid of three [though that carries its own risks]. I generally open my bid with 2 burdens when playing this deck.
Remember that everything that is discarded can be brought back into your deck with Rest By Blind Night. Late in the game, stack a ton of shadow cards on Preparations and then send them back into the deck.
-wtk