The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: Olorin on August 26, 2009, 12:16:04 PM
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Hi guys,
what about this: Gandalf (s)kills
I.) I have 4 comps in play and 4 threats. I play Saved from the fire and place one comp into the dead pile to... --> now, do I have to place threat wounds? Has a character been killed due to Sftf?
II.) I have Aragorn in play. I have Elendil in the dead pile. I play borne far away. I place a second copy of Aragorn from my hand into the dead pile to get Elendil out from the dead pile.
--> Elendil is not dead anymore, right? I may play Elendil now. But how about Aragorn? Is he now dead? Do I have to place the other copy from him in play also into the dead pile?
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III.) Legolas' Bow:
...if you play an event or condition... exert... heal... bla bla bla
Does this also count for toil-exertions? --> Exert for Toil is not the same as "to play exert..."
I am curious about your comments :mrgreen:
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(Not 100% sure) > Threats are activated whenever a card enters the dead pile. "Killed", "dies", "placed in dead pile" are all the same as far as threat manipulation is concerned.
That's a really good situation with Borne Far Away; not sure if it's come up before. You're correct that Elendil wouldn't be dead anymore, but that bit about Aragorn is tricky. I would be inclined to rule that whichever Aragorn was in play first takes precedence - in this case, Aragorn would remain in play despite having an Aragorn in the dead pile.
Yes, Legolas' Bow covers toil exertions. Anytime you would exert him to satisfy any aspect of the condition or event in question you get to use the bow's ability (of course, just once per phase).
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what about this: Gandalf (s)kills
I.) I have 4 comps in play and 4 threats. I play Saved from the fire and place one comp into the dead pile to... --> now, do I have to place threat wounds? Has a character been killed due to Sftf?
Place 4 threat wounds on the remaining characters.
II.) I have Aragorn in play. I have Elendil in the dead pile. I play borne far away. I place a second copy of Aragorn from my hand into the dead pile to get Elendil out from the dead pile.
--> Elendil is not dead anymore, right? I may play Elendil now. But how about Aragorn? Is he now dead? Do I have to place the other copy from him in play also into the dead pile?
Elendil is no longer dead. Feel free to play him at your leisure. I will say I am not sure what to do about Aragorn. My inclination would be that he is discarded and threat wounds are activated as there is now a copy of Aragorn in the Dead Pile. To my knowledge (through Mount Doom) the only card that allows you to play a copy of a character in the Dead Pile is Sent Back. Let me know if I am missing one, guys.
III.) Legolas' Bow:
...if you play an event or condition... exert... heal... bla bla bla
Does this also count for toil-exertions? --> Exert for Toil is not the same as "to play exert..
Legolas' Bow does indeed cover Toil exertions. Remember, it's once per phase!
I am really interested to see where the Borne Far Away conversation goes!
-wtk
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I.) I have 4 comps in play and 4 threats. I play Saved from the fire and place one comp into the dead pile to... --> now, do I have to place threat wounds? Has a character been killed due to Sftf?
Yes, a character has been killed. From the rulebook: "When game text instructs you to place a character in the dead pile, that character has been killed."
II.) I have Aragorn in play. I have Elendil in the dead pile. I play borne far away. I place a second copy of Aragorn from my hand into the dead pile to get Elendil out from the dead pile.
--> Elendil is not dead anymore, right? I may play Elendil now. But how about Aragorn? Is he now dead? Do I have to place the other copy from him in play also into the dead pile?
The Aragorn in play stays in play. The rules stop you from playing a copy of a unique companion in the dead pile, but it doesn't tell you to do something about one already in play. So he's good.
III.) Legolas' Bow:
...if you play an event or condition... exert... heal... bla bla bla
Does this also count for toil-exertions? --> Exert for Toil is not the same as "to play exert..."
Yeah, I know what you're getting at with the wording (there's another thread on this somewhere), but in a nutshell Legolas' Bow works with toil.
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Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
Is everyone sure about Legolas' Bow (toil-exertions, etc.?)
Run until found can give hunter 1. If I remove two tokens... it is still hunter 1, right?
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Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
I would presume not, based upon Elessar's Socks' understanding on how the card works. Personally, I would presume it kills Aragorn (in your example) and thus, you have to assign threat wounds. But if it doesn't kill the Aragorn in play, then no, you would not assign threat wounds.
Is everyone sure about Legolas' Bow (toil-exertions, etc.?)
Yes, I am absolutely sure about that. Legolas' Bow does indeed work on Toil cards as well.
Run until found can give hunter 1. If I remove two tokens... it is still hunter 1, right?
Actually, you get "Hunter 1, Hunter 1." That is different than "Hunter 2," as it is 2 strength +1 bonuses as opposed to one strength +2 bonus.
Hope that helps.
-wtk
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Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
Like Ket, I don't think it will activate threat. The differrence with Saved From the Fire is the wording: With SFTF you PLACE a character in the dead pile and with Borne Far Way you EXCHANGE a companion in the dead pile, which I think it isn't the same. I'm not 100% sure about that though. :-k
Run until found can give hunter 1. If I remove two tokens... it is still hunter 1, right?
It gives you 2x Hunter 1, so if you skirmish a non-hunter minion it will give your companion a +2 strength bonus. In a way it's like the Ambush keyword: think of any Southron with ambush bearing a Raider Bow as well, it will give you Ambush 5 + Ambush of your southron.
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Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
Its game text isn't instructing you to "place" a character in the dead pile (even if you're physically placing/dropping/tossing the card in there), so it won't. As Zoskan said, this is just an "exchange".
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Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
Its game text isn't instructing you to "place" a character in the dead pile (even if you're physically placing/dropping/tossing the card in there), so it won't. As Zoskan said, this is just an "exchange".
Don't forget that with Borne Far Away you are simply using a companion from your hand, NOT a companion from in play. Thus no threat wounds.
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Yes, Kralik has hit the nail on the head. Borne Far Away can't trigger threats because the companion goes to the dead pile from hand. If it a card exchanged companions in play and the dead pile, then threat wounds would be placed because a companion from play was going to the dead pile.
And ES's rulings are, to my knowledge, all correct: 1) threat wounds trigger from SftF, before you have a chance to play cards gained from it, 2) Aragorn remains in play - you cannot play another copy of Aragorn, and if the one in play dies you will still not to be able to play another one, but the one in play is unaffected, and 3) Legolas' Bow works for toil exertions.
Thranduil
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I would have to disagree with the born far away. What would be the point of placing a comp in the dead pile if it did not kill him. I believe the point of the card is to use a comp you dont need to get one you do otherwise it would just say to discard a comp not place in the dead pile.
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I would have to disagree with the born far away. What would be the point of placing a comp in the dead pile if it did not kill him. I believe the point of the card is to use a comp you dont need to get one you do otherwise it would just say to discard a comp not place in the dead pile.
No, kill is when a companion goes from play to the dead pile. Borne Far Away puts a guy from hand to the dead pile. This is not the same as either 1) being "placed in the dead pile", where the "from play" is implied, or 2) being "killed", where again the companion has to be in play first.
Thranduil
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Then why does it say to place in the dead pile? what is the down side? how can you have aragorn in the dead pile and in play?
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that just seems weird to me
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It may be weird, but those are the rules! The rules for the dead pile only come into effect when you are playing a companion, as ES said.
Thranduil
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Then why does it say to place in the dead pile? what is the down side? how can you have aragorn in the dead pile and in play?
Really. Why not just have the text say "Discard a companion from hand?"
And here's a question...if your Aragorn gets killed, and you have two now in the dead pile, does that count against two of your nine companions?
-wtk
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I'm sure because of the many cards that benefit from the dead pile, and multiple use of Borne Far Away.
And yes, the dead pile counts toward the rule of 9.
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I'm sure because of the many cards that benefit from the dead pile, and multiple use of Borne Far Away.
And yes, the dead pile counts toward the rule of 9.
It's just odd to think that you could have four Aragorns in the dead pile.
-wtk
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Well, as per this debate, the rulebook states
"When game text instructs you to place a character in the dead pile, that character has been killed."
So I'm baffled as to what happens, if a character is killed, and still in play. I can agree with for Aragorn's in the dead pile, but the fact that one could still be in play is the odd part.
edit: Oh, I just realized the card doesn't tell you to place it in the dead pile, key word "exchange"
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I think it is clear, but I can understand Olorins and St.Grimmins point of view.
If you play a second Radagast with Sent Back, and afterwards Sent Back gets discarded, is Radagast still allowed to be in play =), though there is a copy in the deadpile.
That is the reason why I play Borne far away two times in nearly every Deck, in which a wizard is ;D
Btw; if you have more than one copy of an unique companion (eg Aragorn) in the deadpile, I am not allowed to play him from the dead pile, right?
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Btw; if you have more than one copy of an unique companion (eg Aragorn) in the deadpile, I am not allowed to play him from the dead pile, right?
This card is ridiculous.
-wtk
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If you play a second Radagast with Sent Back, and afterwards Sent Back gets discarded, is Radagast still allowed to be in play =), though there is a copy in the deadpile.
Yes of course - the Radagast in play remains unaffected because the rule regarding the dead pile only triggers when you play a companion.
Well, as per this debate, the rulebook states "When game text instructs you to place a character in the dead pile, that character has been killed."
So I'm baffled as to what happens, if a character is killed, and still in play. I can agree with for Aragorn's in the dead pile, but the fact that one could still be in play is the odd part.
edit: Oh, I just realized the card doesn't tell you to place it in the dead pile, key word "exchange"
No, it's nothing to do with the word "exchange". "Exchanging" involves placing one guy in the dead pile and taking another one out. The reason threats are not triggered is because your quote from the rulebook is actually saying the following:
"When game text instructs you to place a character in the dead pile FROM PLAY, that character has been killed."
This is because, when no zone is specified, the default meaning is "from play". Therefore, putting a companion in the dead pile from hand DOES NOT trigger threats.
Thranduil