The Last Homely House

Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: TheJord on December 16, 2009, 04:37:11 PM

Title: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: TheJord on December 16, 2009, 04:37:11 PM
Can I use Pass of Caradhras to play Caradhras has not Forgiven Us in the Shadow phase?
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: MuadDib85 on December 16, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
I would guess no, just because it is a manuever event.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: chompers on December 16, 2009, 05:03:43 PM
i was thinking the same - no you cannot. I suspect timing is an absolute rule than cannot be changed by any other card.

but i can see how the card implies that you can. If an action can over-rule the timing of a card it has potential to trigger a range of effects on many other cards i suspect.

Interested to see what others think - because if you can - its time to look through all the cards and see what combos this may create.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: Not a Zombie on December 16, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
I would say yes, think about cards like the red arrow, it allows you to play cards out of phase. so does the gamling and eowyn from bohd. Those aren't events, but I think it is still applicable.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: MR. Lurtzy on December 16, 2009, 05:10:50 PM
From the Comprehensive Rulebook 4.0, page 3:

Quote
You cannot play an event during a phase that does not match its phase action.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: jdizzy001 on December 16, 2009, 07:48:28 PM
Ah ha, so cards don't always do what they say they do.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: TheJord on December 16, 2009, 08:00:40 PM
Solved by Mr Lurtzy...

Will this tear the fabric of the space time continuum? ;D
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: Alazzar on December 16, 2009, 10:55:54 PM
I dunno, I still think the Red Arrow thing is a good argument.  And, as far as Mr. Lurtzy's research goes, do I need to quote the part of the rulebook that says when the rules and the cards conflict, follow the cards?  =P
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: ket_the_jet on December 16, 2009, 10:57:55 PM
I dunno, I still think the Red Arrow thing is a good argument.  And, as far as Mr. Lurtzy's research goes, do I need to quote the part of the rulebook that says when the rules and the cards conflict, follow the cards?  =P

The Red Arrow is not an event though.
-wtk
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: chompers on December 16, 2009, 11:45:37 PM
As far as I can tell, this rule serves no purpose other than to stop actions such as this. How else could you play an event out of its correct phase unless another card implies that you could.

So i think it is fair to say - no you can't.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: Thranduil on December 17, 2009, 02:13:44 AM
I dunno, I still think the Red Arrow thing is a good argument.  And, as far as Mr. Lurtzy's research goes, do I need to quote the part of the rulebook that says when the rules and the cards conflict, follow the cards?  =P
The key point is the Red Arrow does not play events out of phase, it plays companions and possessions - cards that stick around. Similarly you can play minions in the regroup phase (Spied From Above) and skirmish phase (Hill Clan) because they don't have particular phase words associated with them, whereas events do.

Thranduil
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: Elessar's Socks on December 17, 2009, 03:32:57 AM
I think for the most part, rules describe what you can do. Then where necessary, restrictions are made within this framework; for example, the Rule of 4, which limits how many cards you can draw in the fellowship phase.

So going by this:

- You can perform game text if the rules don't prohibit it. Example: Playing companions outside the fellowship phase. The rules don't prohibit you from playing them outside the fellowship phase--they just don't give you a built-in way of doing so.

- You can perform game text if it acknowledges somehow the rule that's being broken, or can only work with it broken. Example: Using Sent Back to play Gandalf when a copy is in the dead pile ("even if another copy of that wizard is in your dead pile").

That's the gist of it I think, though there are issues like O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! not working without the need for errata. But for this topic, IMO the wording of Pass of Caradhras is not enough to break the rule Lurtzy quoted. Play a weather card... provided there isn't a rule prohibiting said card from being played that phase.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: legolas3333 on December 17, 2009, 10:17:55 AM
can we seriously be debating this?? there is no way to play a maneuver card in the shadow phase, can you use Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant Of Morgul in the shadow?? no! And it's not like you could use AWINL in the assignment phase.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: jdizzy001 on December 17, 2009, 01:53:05 PM
Havo dad, Legolas
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: legolas3333 on December 17, 2009, 02:10:26 PM
Havo dad, Legolas
I wish he said something cool at that point in the movie that i could respond with
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: ket_the_jet on December 17, 2009, 06:04:44 PM
I wish he said something cool at that point in the movie that i could respond with

He #$&*@! out.
-wtk
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: jdizzy001 on December 24, 2009, 01:48:44 PM
In all my years of playing, I've seen companions and possessions played during the skirmish phase, minions played from discard piles, conditions played during the regroup phase, but I have never seen, nor learned, of a way to play events out of phase.  I think the card in question refers to weather cards which are playable during the shadow phase
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: legolas3333 on December 24, 2009, 09:27:50 PM
ok my deal with it is that events are basically one time actions, so a skirmish event is a one time skirmish action hence you cannot play a skirmish event in the assignment phase because you cannot use a skirmish action in the assignment phase. did i make sense? But for other cards, you can play conditions in the regroup phase thanks to cards like some secret art of flame, you can play minions from hand and discard piles with easterling scout/last days, you can play possessions in the skirmish phase with gamling, you can play companions in the assignment phase with the red arrow, but those are all examples of playing cards, not using an "action" in the wrong phase.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: sharkey on December 28, 2009, 11:28:09 AM
Well, it is said that if a card contradicts the rules, the card wins. So I would say yes, it is playable, unless it said something like: Play a weather condition from your draw deck.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: Kralik on December 28, 2009, 12:54:51 PM
But sharkey, the point is that there are no examples of, and the rulebook specifically prohibits, playing events out of phase.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: chompers on December 28, 2009, 01:57:49 PM
Simple errata to: Play a weather condition from your draw deck - while maybe not entirely necessary depending on which side of the fence you sit - would end this discussion.

Even an accepted ruling and a clarification entry in the rule book would be great - same for Crashed Gates. A rules team and up-to-date CRD would be tops!

Bring on a PC !!
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: MR. Lurtzy on December 28, 2009, 05:23:37 PM
There's no need for an errata, because the rule really isn't that confusing.
Title: Re: Pass of Caradhras
Post by: TheJord on December 28, 2009, 05:27:54 PM
As the OP, I must agree with Lurtzy's assessment and reference from the CRD.