The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Lothlórien => Fellowship => Topic started by: Kralik on June 27, 2008, 10:46:41 AM
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Commentary:
Back when I first started playing LotR, just after RotEL came out, none of my friends played [Sauron]. In fact, they didn't see much use for the culture in general. It happened to be my favorite, and I bought a few [Sauron] card lots off of eBay for $20-$50 and got started making some decks. Unfortunately, [Sauron] is very rare intensive and I was the one who had the money those days. :P I have two favorite [Sauron] deck designs: one that revolves around discard/corruption and another that focuses on wounding. This is the first, very close to the deck I used to play six years ago.
The main purpose of this deck is to make your opponent want to pull their hair out run out of cards and !hate you for the rest of eternity be unable to play much of anything. Once your opponent is irritated beyond belief has no draw deck, you can run to site 9 in safety.
Ring and Bearer:
Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
The One Ring, Isildur's Bane
Adventure Deck:
[1] The Prancing Pony*
[2] Trollshaw Forest*
[3] Rivendell Waterfall
[4] Eregion Hills
[5] The Bridge of Khazad-dum*
[6] Valley of the Silverlode*
[7] The Great River
[8] Gates of Argonath
[9] Tol Brandir
Free Peoples (35 cards):
1x Arwen, Daughter Of Elrond (starting)
1x Legolas, Son of Thranduil (starting)
1x Aragorn, King in Exile
3x Haldir, Elf Of The Golden Wood
3x Elrond, Herald to Gil-galad
1x Gwemegil
1x Long-knives of Legolas
1x Ranger's Sword
2x Aragorn's Bow
1x Bow of the Galadhrim
3x Elven Bow**
2x Gift of Boats
2x Songs of the Blessed Realm
1x The Choice of Luthien
1x The Last Alliance of Elves and Men
3x The White Arrows of Lorien
2x Hobbit Stealth
2x Might of Numenor
2x Secret Sentinels
2x The Council of Elrond
Shadow (35 cards):
3x Morgul Hunter
4x Orc Ambusher
4x Orc Inquisitor
4x Orc Warrior
2x Tower Assassin
3x Desperate Defense of the Ring
3x His Cruelty and Malice
2x Thin and Stretched
3x Tower of Barad-dur
3x Desperate Measures
2x Enduring Evil
2x Shadow's Reach
General Strategy:
Bid 2 and hope to start with The Prancing Pony. If you opponent bids 2 and wins the toss or bids 3... ouch! It's hard to go without Aragorn, but those burdens should help you later. I think the risk is worth it, but consider running 2x each of Aragorn and Haldir.* Get the White Arrows of Lorien out and start trashing your opponent's hand. For Shadow, add burdens if possible but focus on discard. Once you get to site 6, run to nine with the Gift of Boats. MAKE SURE you cycle your hand as much as possible and you have very good chances of getting it in time. Be careful against choke!
*Or perhaps tweak below.
Free People's Specific Strategy (Trash your opponent's hand):
- THE WHITE ARROWS OF LORIEN - Put it on Legolas or Arwen, but it's nice to have one on all three elves. This is the essence of your Freeps deck, so keep your companions healed and use it well! Always trash your opponent's hand if it is safe (you can spare the vitality), and keep in mind that they will not have any Skirmish events to use against you. Use Might of Numenor to keep wounds down and beware Relentless Charge!
- Companions - All except Haldir have the Aragorn signet for optimum healing. You'll want to use this mainly on Legolas and Arwen to keep TWAoL running. Haldir is a stock Elf; Arwen is nice against Nazzies; Legolas gives an archery boost for most sites. Once your opponent realizes what you are up to, they are likely to double ahead, so you get to play your forests and rivers.
- Allies - Elrond is vital for healing, Gift of Boats and Secret Sentinels. Be careful not to overexert him if it seems like your opponent may be able to kill him. Between Elrond and Aragorn's healings alone, you should be able to use TWAoL twice a turn!
- Possessions - Pretty self-explanatory.
- Archery - You have the potential for a base archery total of 5. Very nice.
- Gift of Boats - You probably won't win without it. If you get it only early, do not play it lest it get discarded (unless your opponent is running discard as well and trashing your hand ;)).
- Songs of the Blessed Realm - Helps drop your initial 3-4 burdens.
- The Choice of Luthien - Use it to keep Arwen healed if she has TWAoL, or to spread wounds around before using Might of Numenor.
- The Council of Elrond - Makes you essentially have 5 TWAoL! Use it also to grab TLAoEaM or TCoL.
- Hobbit Stealth - Get out of Balrog free card.
Shadow Specific Strategy (Trash your opponent's draw deck):
- Culture - [Sauron] is tricky because of high roaming costs. Be prepared to discard minions that you can't play to keep your hand cycling. Be aware that almost all of the conditions require exertions to play.
- Morgul Hunter - Great gametext, even better vitality. He's a keeper.
- Orc Ambusher - Why four? This is your cheapest minion, and at 3 twilight when roaming (most of the game), he will help you get your conditions out.
- Orc Inquisitor - This will especially annoy them after losing cards to Tower of Barad-dur.
- Orc Warrior - How can you beat this guy's manuever discarding? If your orcs are not making it to skirmish, discard your conditions left and right.
- Tower Assassin - In case your opponent randomly decided to run Old Noakes, kill him. He's the biggest threat to a shadow discard deck other than Frodo, Courteous Halfling (which fortunately is in Towers block, so no worries there!) Of course, killing allies can come in handy in other circumstances.
- Desperate Defense of the Ring - What a painful choice! If fighting a skirmish-oriented deck, put this card on their best fighters. Know also that Old Noakes does not apply on this card if the Freeps player chooses to discard 3.
- His Cruelty and Malice - The only condition with no spotting requirement. Play it whenever you have spare twilight. If yours minions survive with extra vitality to use it, great! Otherwise, discard it with Orc Warrior.
- Thin and Stretched - Once you have this out with DDotR, it's burden if he fights, burden if he doesn't. And if they assign someone like a Orc Ambusher to Frodo, that just might be game with Enduring Evil... :twisted:
- Tower of Barad-dur - So tempting to pack four of these... after playing their best Freeps cards, your opponent will generally have to discard their shadow.
- Desperate Measures - Awesome. While you may not corrupt the Ringbearer, burdens are so useful for both this card and Enduring Evil.
- Enduring Evil - Unexpected overwhelm, anyone?
- Shadow's Reach - Use it if you need it, otherwise save your exertions for playing conditions.
The Shadow side is flexible and it is possible for you to accomplish your objectives without having any minions make it to a single skirmish. On the other hand, if they do and you can take advantage of TaS and DDotR, more power to you!
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As Kralik indicated, this deck made me hateful, irritated, and bald last night. :'( I started doubling from Site 3 on once I realized what he was up to, but my deck was gone by Site 6 and my hand was empty by Site 7. I made it to 8 with all companions intact, but he breezed by me at the end with Gift of Boats while I could do nothing but watch, having absolutely NOTHING left to throw at him. Heck, after the first sanctuary, I think I managed to play only half a dozen Shadow cards the rest of the game. I simply couldn't maintain a functional hand. This deck is BRUTAL.
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As Kralik indicated, this deck made me hateful, irritated, and bald last night.
And for a Dwarf to pluck out his beard... ouch!
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A tweak that I think would work better:
-1 Haldir, EotGW
-1 Elven Bow**
+1 Aragorn, KiE
+1 Might of Numenor
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I tried a deck similar to this. It was a blast! My gaming buddy hates it, thus, I love IT!
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I tried a deck similar to this. It was a blast! My gaming buddy hates it, thus, I love IT!
It's also worth using Durin's Secret as Gift of Boats has fallen through on me at times. Then you can play Nobody Tosses a Dwarf as well. :up:
Discard is only fun for one party, though...
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I like this deck, nice!
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I always thought that [Sauron] FotR decks were the best, but unfortunately, I had neither the money(for online cards) or the brains(bought only starter decks pretty much, at least at the beginning) for [Sauron].
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I tried a discard deck in a multiplayer game... it didn't work too well. Needless to say, i lost.
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I tried a discard deck in a multiplayer game... it didn't work too well. Needless to say, i lost.
Discard deck are not gonna work in multiplayer, it's just working in single player.
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Most strategies are duel-oriented, meaning, you should be facing off against a single opponent. Multiplayer decks should be built differently, with a total new approach, otherwise multiplayer games tend to go pretty much the same way, with the players with overlapping shadow sides tearing everyone apart, and someone sprinting for the win after the others have lost most of their gas killing the players leading the race.
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I learned that the hard way too. I usually lead till about site 5. Then the wolves descend.
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The Old Took tried this back in the day, but thankfully he only owned a quarter of the cards necessary. I thank my lucky Maia for that.
a little off topic, but, do we have a thread to explain building for and playing in multiplayer battles? I would greatly appreciate learning more about strategy with 3 players
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Well, Clockwork started such a topic, go to lothlorien, scroll down past the decksections and there you have it.
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THe dekc was brutal, but it loses IMHO to uruks and more specific... sarumans power. Also the shadow cannot do much vs a few well-timed sleeps. Too bad trust/uruk was prevalent in the end of fellowship.
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Problems with this deck:
Orc Scouting band, Orc Hunters, Orc Soldier, Mordor's Strength. It can be countered, though it is a frustrating first time play. It will also lose vs. another mill deck, probably :) The War of the Mill Decks, who will win? :)
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Problems with this deck:
Orc Scouting band, Orc Warrior, Orc Soldier, Mordor's Strength. It can be countered, though it is a frustrating first time play. It will also lose vs. another mill deck, probably :) The War of the Mill Decks, who will win? :)
I no longer play this exact deck, but... perhaps you meant Orc Hunters instead of Orc Warrior?
In any case, TWAoL discards Mordor's Strength and the 4+ archery each turn takes care of Orc exertions.
EDIT: KET, stop posting right before me! =P
Long-Knives and Lego's Bow also help.
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Fine. A Twlight Nazgul, His terrible servants, and shotgun Enquea. And maybe wreathed in shadow. I have a friend who plays that deck.
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Obviously every deck has its weaknesses.
The strength of discard is that it messes up practically every deck. So they have twilight Nazgul... will they be able to hold on to Wraith World? Will they even draw the right cards (such as His Terrible Servants) with Desperate Measures and Orc Warrior trashing their draw deck? Shotgun Enquea needs 6 companions or 5 burdens... the burdens may come, but they may also be peeled off. The Choice of Luthien + Might of Numenor helps vs. the likes of Enquea anyway.
Of course, if your opponent knows what you are trying to do, they can often outwit you.
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Yeah, I just like finding deck's flaws. I also like trying to figure out the ones that are most problematic for whatever reason. Another problem is Attea, In Twilight who will destroy allies, and Orc Warrior as well (discarding gift of boats). Their power is in Terror and Fear and Beauty is Fading are also problems. In short, a wraith deck will be problematic.
I find the funnest part of any TCG the deck building, the playing is just the second part.
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Sure, this deck isn't perfect, which is why I no longer play it, but ONLY play my utterly perfect discard decks. The ones that win even if my opponent hand-picks cards to counter them. XD
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I play relentless charge and beauty is fading in my wraith deck.
I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just telling you what can be a problem so you can look out for it or change the deck to avoid it. I think this is a cool deck, it's well made. Good job!
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Beauty is Fading is one of the worst cards ever. Would you rather play that or, say, Cantea for [5]? Relentless Charge is pretty common, but there is a lot of maneuver healing as well--The Choice of Luthien and Might of Numenor.
I actually don't think {Ringwraith} is a very big problem. After the first turn, the deck chokes relatively well so you really only have to worry about one (if not two) Nazgul. Arwen can take one and Aragorn can absorb wounds from the other.
Three copies of Elrond, Herald to Gil-Galad means that even if one or two is discarded, it will still be okay. And he is never really exhausted unless you use him and Secret Sentinels in the same turn. Ulaire Attea, The Easterling does a single wound, and anyways, after you see cards like that you just think, okay, just be carefully with my exertions of Elrond. He auto-heals, after all. The guy to really watch is Tower Assassin.
I appreciate you pointing out cards that may work against it--there certainly are some (Beauty is Fading is a fluke card of working, anyways). Relentless Charge is a tough card no matter what you are playing and you always have to be careful around Tower Assassin. But that said, this deck does a pretty good job of what it intends to do. I have tried the Free Peoples' side with my similar Shadow (replacing [Dwarven] discard) and it cycles much better that Gwemegil even without Delving.
-wtk
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Yeah, it's a good deck. It's also a clever strategy too.I still think that some decks I've played would have a less difficult time countering it than some might think. It will still win most games against a random match up in the format though!
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The FP needs Gift of Boats for a site 6-9 run. Otherwise I would just play nothing and run vs it.
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Gift of Boats falling through is the main reason I no longer use this exact design. An alternative is a rainbow deck with Nobody Tosses a Dwarf and Durin's Secret. Or a tough shadow to slow them down (non-Sauron).
I play relentless charge and beauty is fading in my wraith deck.
I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just telling you what can be a problem so you can look out for it or change the deck to avoid it. I think this is a cool deck, it's well made. Good job!
Naw, I was just being facetious. ;)
Relentless Charge IS a very, very serious problem. I would be more worried about that card than any of the ally wounding stuff.
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Yeah, it's tough since it's wound, not like other similar cards. All Blades Perish is another problem, but it is an event.
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It's tough because it wounds everyone and it's during Manuever. No chance to discard with TWAoL. :P
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No need to discard TWAoL. It doesn't really matter to RC.
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No chance to discard with TWAoL.
No chance to discard RC with TWAoL.
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Ahhh. Sorry. Yes, that hurts. It also hurt is you have exhausted your companions a turn earlier between TWAoL and skirmishes.
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Ahhh. Sorry. Yes, that hurts. It also hurt is you have exhausted your companions a turn earlier between TWAoL and skirmishes.
You don't have to use TWAoL if it is not safe. Elrond + Gorn provide 2 heals a turn, which (if you are doing well with skirmishes) is enough to discard 4 cards.
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Nevertheless, that is the point of the game, risk and sacrifice. How much must the fellowship risk to ensure the destruction of the ring.
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My first deck in fellowship league was mordor discard with dwarf discard - not very effective and I am sure this works better, but .....
What happens when a discard deck plays a discard deck?
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What happens when a discard deck plays a discard deck?
Utter chaos and hilarity. ;)
I would guess the stronger shadow wins. My current favorite discard deck uses Uruk-hai, not Sauron. They have a lot more stopping power.
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Nevertheless, that is the point of the game, risk and sacrifice. How much must the fellowship risk to ensure the destruction of the ring of my opponent's mood, day, lust to ever play a game of lotr again....
I HATE DISCARDDECKS to play against, to play with: other cup of tea :ninja:
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:lol:
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I hate playing them too. That's why I run Frodo, CH or LM always. Makes decks 1/2 effective a lot.
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That's why I run Frodo, CH or LM...
Not in FotR block you don't! ;)
Note that neither can protect you from DDotR.
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It would be wise to pack a copy of Old Noakes in your deck, to spoil some of the fun at least.
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What happens when a discard deck plays a discard deck?
Whoever abandons strategy and runs to site 9 first wins.
-wtk
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Whoever abandons strategy and runs to site 9 first wins.
Maybe - what if your opponents play Mordor discard with Mordor trackers and Tol Brandir as site 9 - there is a high risk of being overwhelmed.
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It would be wise to pack a copy of Old Noakes in your deck, to spoil some of the fun at least.
He spoils [Sauron] but not [Isengard]... :twisted:
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I've played Red discard for a long time, and you're darn right in focusing in the Orc Warrior. He is the most cost-effective discard card for Sauron. But you need to FEED the Warrior, which means plenty of conditions that you are not afraid to destroy: 4 DDOTR, 4 His Cruelty, and I like 2 Spies of Mordor (cheap, easy to get out, expendable, helps your hand, discourages a double move).
I don't like Tower of Barad-Dur--too expensive to be consistent, and then not enough bang for your buck--so I would drop those. I would add 1 The Irresistible Shadow. I would replace Ambushers for Orc Assasins--these actually might stick around if they have hobbitses.
I love Desperate Measures but never have enough TL to pull it off 3x, so I would drop at least one for the standard Enquea LoM, who will own if they let burdens stack.
Shadows Reach? Discard /a/ condition? Discarding's what this deck does best, so I think that's unnecessary. That will trim your deck count.
For the Freeps, no comment, as I only ever play Dwarf/Elf discard with Durin's Secret. Gimli stacking a couple NTAD and a couple rounds of White Arrows is almost enough in and of itself.
Everyone's right in saying discard can be outsmarted (but when people start playing Old Noakes you can just play your Tower Assassins...). But a finely tuned discard deck, one that maximizes every ounce of twilight is much harder to beat, so stay with it!
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Thanks for the feedback! The reason Tower of Barad-Dur is important (IMO) is to keep the opponent from slowly building up an ideal Shadow hand with which to destroy me. If they play only conditions and no minions, White Arrows and/or Nobody Tosses a Dwarf will never trigger. They can focus on cycling and even if they are decked in the end, if they manage < 5 burdens and have a site like Tol Brandir, I can be completely destroyed in the last double or triple move. Or even a bunch of Uruk-Hai and Saruman at twilight -1 apiece.
Desperate Measures usually works alright for me, but I agree that removing Shadow's Reach and putting in other conditions would be helpful.