The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => The Straight Road => The Dream Team => Topic started by: Tbiesty on February 09, 2011, 04:30:44 PM
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How about Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor next?
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[2] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [dwarf]
Companion Dwarf
str 6
vit 3
Damage +1
Skirmish: exert gimli to make him str +1 for each [dwarf] tale you can spot.
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Someone will find this suggestion familiar.
[2] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarf]
Companion Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Damage +1
Skirmish: Exert Gimli to make a Dwarf strength +1 and lose all damage bonuses.
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Someone will find this suggestion familiar.
[2] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarf]
Companion Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Damage +1
Skirmish: Exert Gimli to make a Dwarf strength +1 and lose all damage bonuses.
Like! There are a lot of times when you actually don't want to kill a minion in 1 hit (so you can fight it again in a fierce skirmish, etc). Also, sometimes winning vs an enduring minion (shelob) with damage+5 is a bad thing.
The generic +1 bonus makes it usable a lot of the time, and the damage removal makes it good for "interesting" situations.
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Let's make seperate topics for all the cards, like back in the days when all the spoilers came out from Hunters block and they were debated, makes it easier to follow. Set on the One Ring? Well, I agree with Ket that the exertion for a threat is too easy. I mean, common Frodo from set 7 has to add 3 to get 1 threat removed. Galadriel with her own ring, aiglos etc, could easily get rid of any threats. There should be a limit, or an extra cost.
About Gimli, I loved his ability to stack cards under the deck, and hated the errata. It opens new options, rather than have him giving others strength. The common Gimli from TTT does the same thing and stimulates creativity, since Legolas benefits even more.
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Locked for now. We have to finish The One Ring first.
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This thread is now unlocked. Excellent! Let's hear your ideas.
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Gimli, Dwarf Of Erebor
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Damage +1
Manuever: Exert Gimli, add (2) and remove a token from My Axe Is Notched and reinforce a token on Final Count (or vice versa).
Number of twilight to pay is up in the air...not sure how much is best.
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Gimli, Dwarf Of Erebor
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Damage +1
Manuever: Exert Gimli, add (2) and remove a token from My Axe Is Notched and reinforce a token on Final Count (or vice versa).
I would be reluctant to have one card directly reference another.
[2] Gimli, Dwarf Of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Each time you play a [Dwarven] event, you may place
a card from hand underneath your draw deck
He fits the theme, and makes him usable but not broken. I think...
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[2] Gimli, Dwarf Of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Each time you play a [Dwarven] event, you may place
a card from hand underneath your draw deck
He fits the theme, and makes him usable but not broken. I think...
That's pretty cool.
Here's a tweak so it's a cross between the current Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor and Gimli, Opinionated Guide.
[2] Gimli, Dwarf Of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Each time you play a [Dwarven] possession, you may place
a card from hand underneath your draw deck.
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I was thinking for my Echo of Luthien deck, so I can finally beat Dead Ones
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I was thinking for my Echo of Luthien deck, so I can finally beat Dead Ones
Was thinking the same thing. Also, was thinking about perhaps figuring out something nasty with Underdepths of Moria to go with it on shadow....that could get really nasty...stocking mass numbers of Orcs under there under until you have the full swarm. Not sure how powerful that could get, but I bet there's some abusive setup you could do with that.
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Putting cards on the bottom of your draw deck is strange, particularly for a [Dwarven] card. I know that Dwarf of Erebor did it, but that might be an even better reason not to do it on the V-card.
What we have so far:
• Tales
• Losing damage for strength
• My Axe is Notched
• Dwarf of Erebor-like abilities
• Opinionated Guide-like abilities
As I said, I'm less excited about reusing old Gimli texts if avoidable, and referencing specific cards isn't great—but on the other hand, if those cards are My Axe is Notched and Final Count, then I think that's actually fair enough.
How about:
• Tutoring? (finding cards from your draw deck)
• Enduring?
• Card draw?
• Event/possession recursion? (getting it back from the discard)
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Out of a purpose, I would vote against My Axe is Notched, This GImli hails from the FOTR block, while My Axe is Notched comes from TTT, which means in FOTR we create a blank Gimli, which I think we all agree upon, isnt a good idea. Not saying the idea is bad, it just doent fit a FOTR card.
@Thranduil: I would also not use Enduring on pre-ROTK cards, cause that block doesnt know they keyword yet.
(2) Gimli, Dwarf of Erebror (v)
6/3/A
Damage +1
When you play Gimli, you may play Gimli''s Battle Axe on him from your draw deck.
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First thing that needs to be pointed out, though, is that this is the very first Gimli, from the very first set, so it depicts Gimli as a "standard" Dwarf, meaning, "nothing to do with Elves". It could be said that putting cards in the bottom of the deck is "something in common" he has with Elves, which may have prompted him to not be so prejudicial with them in the first place. Just saying.
Also, giving Dwarves what they already have is not that much fun to "keep the game fresh". I'd actually advise tackling their weaknesses, although without making something quite so overpowered. Since Gimli came from afar to the Council, and he told stories about the dwarven lands and was the ONLY Dwarf available to do so for the Fellowship, I'd reckon his ability to "recount tales" would be considered remarkable - and everything he DID recount would BE a tale. As such, I'd suggest messing with tales, perhaps in a slightly different way, like:
"[Dwarven] conditions with a [Dwarven] token on them are tales.
Exert Gimli (or Whenever Gimli wins a skirmish - you have to admit, right after you dispatch enemies is about the best time to sit and break out a 'by the way, this battle reminded me of...') to place a [Dwarven] token on a [Dwarven] condition."
Again, just a thought, flavor-wise. Also, it messes around with tales, tokens (those tokens can be used in OTHER conditions, which might prove overpowered and need nerfing, but it's just an idea anyway) and pairs up nicely with other Dwarves and a lot of cards that end up being underplayed because they are not tales, thus not working well with the strategy a lot of the times (Lord of Moria + Gloin, Friend to Thorin, anyone?).
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• Tales - I think this is the best option for Gimli, DoE... to get or provide some bonus with tales
• Losing damage for strength - this is a nice idea, although I don't see it used much (especially since there are no other cards supporting that within FotR or even Movie Block)
• My Axe is Notched - what RB said
• Dwarf of Erebor-like abilities - we should tread carefully around this, putting cards under your deck could lead to some unexpected OP combos
• Opinionated Guide-like abilities - not bad, although I think Dwarves have more than enough options to draw cards
• Tutoring? (finding cards from your draw deck) - it's a nice idea, something like what RB suggested
• Enduring? - It's a really good idea, but I agree with RB that cards from earlier blocks shouldn't contain mechanics from later blocks
• Card draw? - same as with Opinionated Guide
• Event/possession recursion? (getting it back from the discard) - they already have cards to get events back (Ring of Guile, Dark Ways) and anything that could bring [dwarf] possessions back would make Dwarves too powerful (just look at what Memories of Darkness could do with conditions)
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I understand the point about keeping a block's mechanical identity to the V-cards, though I personally disagree! The cards also want to be interesting for Standard (and in fact, need to feel like "new" cards, taking the game in a new direction, not just repeating what's been done before) and I think it might unnecessarily hamper our creativity. But let's not worry about that now! For the moment, let's work with what we have in the blocks we're dealing with. (I do, however, agree that a My Axe is Notched Gimli might look better on a Towers Gimli)
Other things to think about:
• Dwarf of Erebor's subtitle --> mountain/underground sites, for example?
• Dwarf strategies that never got off the ground --> I'm sure there are lots of these, but I can't remember any off-hand!
But I'm feeling at the moment a lean towards tales. I kind of like FM's suggestion: the ability to turn any card into a tale...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot 3 [Dwarven] tales, each Free Peoples condition is a tale.
V1DW01
This requires some cultural enforcement, and some prior commitment to tales, to then turn everything into a tale. Seems awesome with that [Shire] card I can't remember the name of.
Thran
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I think an important thing we need to take into account now (during the design of Virtual Set #1) is "which" formats these virtual cards will be allowed.
Identifying this (yes, taking a few moments to form a plan) will make this easier, and less confusing, as we go forward.
In summary, I think we should organize it something like this.
[The "theme" of Sets 1-3 is just "forgotten cards"]
Virtual Set #1 would be virtual versions of Fellowship block cards. (Allowed in FOTR, TS, and Movie)
Virtual Set #2 would be virtual versions of Towers block cards. (Allowed in TS and Movie)
Virtual Set #3 would be virtual versions of King block cards. (Allowed in Movie)
This way it will be easier to keep track of which V-cards to allow in a particular format (you avoid mashing of bunch of unrelated things into a single V-set), and it also helps define which mechanics, etc. to allow within a V-set.
I go into detail about it here (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,6247.msg68109.html#msg68109).
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I liked Thran's even better, fits in a lot of strategies, althgouh not completely remaking them (you still need [Dwarven] tales). I'd side with my suggestion if you were going with a more Dwarven-oriented Gimli, but with Thran's if you were going with a more flexible idea. And to make a point for Thran's, Dwarf of Erebor IS a "flexible" version, since it pairs with Elves and decks that get hand-clogged (specially shadow-wise) a lot really well. Then again, this could be a point for making him NOT so flexible, since the original is already a flexible aproach, so the new one should be taken in a different direction for the sake of reinventing the game a little... Hum... Tough one to break. Thank God I'm just a nosy forumer. :D
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Thran's idea is too powerful. Imagine having that Gimli along with hobbits. Put 3 [dwarf] tales on the table, run Pippin, Friend to Frodo and all your Shadowplay and TSC cannot get discarded. That's a bit too much, don't you think? Also, what would happen if someone were to throw Saruman's Power on that setup? Would all conditions get discarded or just dwarven conditions?
I'd go with something like this:
Fellowship: Exert two [dwarf] companions or one [dwarf] companion twice to play a [dwarf] tale from your draw deck or discard pile.
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Fellowship: Play a Dwarf to take a [Dwarven] or [Shire] tale into hand from your draw deck.
It's nice, although taking [shire] cards isn't something a Dwarf of Erebor would do. I mean, Gimli didn't even know the race of hobbits existed until the council and he probably didn't even see them then until someone pointed them out. ;)
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Yep! I was fairly sure my version was powerful. Often it's a good idea just to see how far we can take it, then bring it back to being sensible!
And tutoring or recurring tales seems like a great thing for Gimli to do. Also just having bonuses for tales:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is damage +1.
While you can spot 3 tales, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 tales, Gimli cannot take wounds (except during the archery phase).
That's a classic Thranduil vintage burrito for you! ;)
Or even
Skirmish: Discard your tale card from play to make Gimli strength +2.
Also, going with the Dwarf of Erebor theme, how about an ability dealing with [Gandalf] Men and/or the home 3 allies like Jarnsmid, Erland etc.?
Thran
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Also, going with the Dwarf of Erebor theme, how about an ability dealing with [Gandalf] Men and/or the home 3 allies like Jarnsmid, Erland etc.?
Hmm... Gimli sees certain characters arrive at the Council of Elrond, which causes him to recount the "dwarven" tales that his father, Gloin, Friend to Thorin, told him when he was younger. How about this?
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character to take a [Dwarven] tale into hand from your draw deck.
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I'm finding these tales ideas quite interesting. :)
I agree 100% with RB, though, and suggest that no mechanics outside of FotR Block are used for a FotR block card. e.g. threats, tokens, TT cards...
Other than that I'll just sit on the sidelines and watch the genius at work. ;)
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Skirmish: Discard your tale card from play to make Gimli strength +2.
Just an extra opinion- I'd say that this one is my favourite so far. Perhaps change it to "from play or from hand" to include events like Might of Numenor?
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Would you guys, in general, agree that a "tale" theme is what we would like for this Gimli?
If so, may I suggest that we use this next week (7 days or so) to pick out or suggest specific versions that we like best and then try to get it narrowed down to our top 3 versions. At that point, I can make "alpha" slips like I did for the ring and people can try them out and see which one we like best.
I would also suggest that in the next day or two another discussion is opened for the next card. There's no harm in brainstorming ideas for multiple cards at a time. In fact, I think that keeping discussions moving encourages participation, which means more/better opinions, and a better product in the end.
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Would you guys, in general, agree that a "tale" theme is what we would like for this Gimli?
If so, may I suggest that we use this next week (7 days or so) to pick out or suggest specific versions that we like best and then try to get it narrowed down to our top 3 versions. At that point, I can make "alpha" slips like I did for the ring and people can try them out and see which one we like best.
I would also suggest that in the next day or two another discussion is opened for the next card. There's no harm in brainstorming ideas for multiple cards at a time. In fact, I think that keeping discussions moving encourages participation, which means more/better opinions, and a better product in the end.
I agree with all of this! Tales has such a strong flavour resonance with the Gimli that DoE is representing, so I think we should go for it.
Except, that I might suggest we open discussion on a new card once we have the alpha playtest slips. Shadow card? Let's look at Goblin Archer maybe?
Thran
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I agree with all of this! Tales has such a strong flavour resonance with the Gimli that DoE is representing, so I think we should go for it.
Except, that I might suggest we open discussion on a new card once we have the alpha playtest slips. Shadow card? Let's look at Goblin Archer maybe?
Excellent!
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What we have to take into account with tales is cards like The COuncil of Elrond. If we pick the Gimli who makes tales, I would highly suggest it taregtting FP cards on table only. I find a condition puller too strong.
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is damage +1.
While you can spot 3 tales, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 tales, Gimli cannot take wounds (except during the archery phase).
This particular concept would have a lot of synergy with virtually every FP culture (other than [Gandalf] which is light on tales) in Fellowship Block. The particular bonuses might warrant some consideration, or maybe even more cultural flavor. For example:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot a [Shire] tale, Gimli is defender+1.
While you can spot a [Gondor] tale, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot a [Elven] tale, add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
I'm sure there are better options than this, but I just wanted to throw the concept out there more than anything else. I personally think that Gimli should always be damage +1 though. I just don't see the justification for removing a bonus that seems to be inherent to the character.
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot a [Shire] tale, Gimli is defender+1.
While you can spot a [Gondor] tale, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot a [Elven] tale, add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
Dwarves are rarely defender (correct me if I'm wrong) so I would say another damage bonus.
For flavour's sake, if you want to add defender, I would suggest a [Dwarven] tale for defender, a la Balin's Tomb
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot a [Shire] tale, Gimli is defender+1.
While you can spot a [Gondor] tale, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot a [Elven] tale, add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
Dwarves are rarely defender (correct me if I'm wrong) so I would say another damage bonus.
For flavour's sake, if you want to add defender, I would suggest a [Dwarven] tale for defender, a la Balin's Tomb
Conceptually, I was thinking of augmenting Gimli with abilities common to the culture of a particular tale on the table. Perhaps something like this would be more appropriate:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Maneuver: Discard a [Gondor] tale to make Gimli strength +2 and defender +1 until the regroup phase.
Archery: Discard a [Elven] tale to add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
Skirmish: Discard a [Shire] tale to cancel a skirmish involving Gimli.
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot a [Shire] tale, Gimli is defender+1.
While you can spot a [Gondor] tale, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot a [Elven] tale, add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
I think this is waaay too powerful because it would enhance Dauntless Hunter decks immensely. And Dauntless Hunter decks don't need enhancing.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Maneuver: Discard a [Gondor] tale to make Gimli strength +2 and defender +1 until the regroup phase.
Archery: Discard a [Elven] tale to add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
Skirmish: Discard a [Shire] tale to cancel a skirmish involving Gimli.
This on the other hand, looks nice. I like it a lot.
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Agreed. The second concept is very strong. He doesn't know anything about the other cultures to start with, but he just needs to hear some of their tales and he becomes a powerful ally.
@TJ: There have been more than 1 [Dwarven] defender card. I would think that defender, in order of culture expertise, goes something like: [Gondor], [Rohan], [Dwarven]—[Gandalf]. But the second concept here circumvents this problem by essentially making it a [Gondor] ability. Which is nice.
Thran
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ok, the concept is fabulous, but you do realize this card is ridiculously OP.
4x gondor bowmen. if you need archery, use them normal, otherwise, chuck them to assign all minions to gimli, with dwarven armor and gimli's helm they don't even barely hurt him.
the elven part is fine.
there are enough sire tales to cancel every skirmish gimli is assigned to. add that to the gondor ability and you don't even have to worry about being overwhelmed.
altogether, this concept is great, but this specific implementation is not gonna work.
maybe something like:
Fellowship: Discard a [shire] tale to heal a companion.
Archery: Discard an [elf] tale to add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
Skirmish: Discard a [gondor] tale to make Gimli strength +2.
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@Thran, DooP is the only [Dwarven] defender card.
With his [Elven] text, Beren and Luthien (an otherwise dreadful card) may actually see play.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
At the start of the maneuver phase, you may discard a [Gondor] tale
to make Gimli strength +2 and defender +1 until the regroup phase.
Or
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Regroup: Discard a [Dwarven] tale to discard a
[Moria] condition
I think burrito cards have a tendency to escalate pretty quickly, as you want each ability to be equally useful, meaning if he has 1 "good" ability, he know has 3 "good" abilities, making him way too versatile.
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Some of the tales related abilities mentioned here are good. I just think Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor doesn't really like Elves at that point, so he shouldn't do anything with [Elven] tales.
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Here's an updated version with some more limitations. While I understand that Gimli may have some enmity toward Elves at this point, he sets out with the Fellowship and puts those differences aside. He is inspired by Aragorn, Legolas, and the Hobbits in different ways. However, I also feel like Gimli should benefit from [Dwarven] tales as well, given that he speaks about his people with such reverence and awe. So with that being said, it may make some sense to replace the [Elven] ability with a [Dwarven] ability. So here is another thought:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Maneuver: Discard a [Gondor] tale (limit 1) to make Gimli strength +2 and defender +1 until the regroup phase.
Skirmish: Discard a [Shire] tale at sites 1-4 to cancel a skirmish involving Gimli or at any other site to heal a Hobbit.
Response: If Gimli wins a skirmish, discard a [Dwarven] tale (limit 1) to take a [Dwarven] card from your discard pile into hand.
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Or something a little more culture specific to Dwarves:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Your [Dwarven] tales may not be discarded by shadow cards.
Maneuver: Exert Gimli and discard X [Dwarven] tales to return a minion with X twilight cost to its owner's hand.
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what about, taking almost a bilbo rout, and making gimli's ability (whatever it ends up being) apply to all tales. that way, tales might become a viable movie block strategy.
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what about, taking almost a bilbo rout, and making gimli's ability (whatever it ends up being) apply to all tales. that way, tales might become a viable movie block strategy.
I'm all for this!
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I want to point out that while, yes, Gimli DID set out with the Fellowship, etc, Dwarf of Erebor depicts him ARRIVING at the Council of Elrond. LATER versions of him would work better with Fellowship characters. Also, we don't actually see him in a close-knit relationship with the other characters until the Two Towers, and the game DOES show that pretty well already, so, the characteristics of this Gimli toward other races would be:
-Grateful to [Gandalf];
-Indifferent to [Gondor] and [Rohan];
-Does not like and does not trust [Elven];
-Is oblivious to [Shire].
Which would mean it should basically work within the [Dwarven] / [Gandalf] theme, which I thik is actually nice, since very few cards enfoce this theme (which SHOULD be there, story-wise AND movie-wise), since both cultures tend to be card-heavy, meaning decks end up going HUGE.
To work with the idea I gave previously, but without using Tokens (although I actually do not see any harm in it, for clarification purposes - and, as a side note, people need to stop posting Gimlis with resistance values, he has a SIGNET, people!), I'd suggest one of the following versions (or an amalgamation of them):
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, all your [Dwarven] conditions are tales.
Regroup: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] condition from your discard pile.
Explanation: Due to Gandalf's role in assisting the Dwarves, it's only logical he'd be part of their tales. It pairs up nicely with the idea of playing a Dwarven deck with a Gandalf thrown in for good measure (without needing a bunch of cards to be anything than an extra companion that does not forward the strategy at all), specially if we're talking about a deck with Gloin.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While Gimli is damage +2, [Dwarven] conditions in play are tales.
While Gimli is damage +3, all Free Peoples conditions in play are tales.
While Gimli is damage +4, all Free Peoples conditions are tales.
Explanation: This Gimli is a throwback to the first one I suggested, giving the possibility of not being so narrow (but, if played as a narrow card, being way better, since you need a single condition you'd otherwise not play - Lord of Moria - or Gimli's Battle axe to turn him on). However, if played as a not-narrow card, you need to jump through some hoops to make him work, stacking your deck a little, meaning it makes deckbuilding harder (which is a pro, IMO).
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a tale to make a companion of that tale's culture strength +2.
Explanation: This is the most bland version of Dwarf of Erebor I could come up with and still like. The idea is simple, as they share stories, their bond strenghtens and they grow stronger. This shows the start of the process. It still plays well with Dwarves in Fellowship Block, just not so Gloin-oriented (still good enough with him as well, though).
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yeah, personally i like the last one.
i'm not a big fan of making other conditions become tales. the while concept of tales is those cards like baren and luthien, tale of gil-galad, all the old stories and stuff. if you start making other conditions tales, players won't be using those original tales, and a lot of flavor is lost.
just my thoughts.
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You know, you COULD spot TALES to make conditions tales... Maybe this would be more flavorful? I don't actually see it as being so, but perhaps...
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I was thinking more about this last night. Perhaps we are making the tale mechanic a bit too complicated. Maybe it should be incorporated in a way that is simple, effective, and that provides a boost to dwarf decks. This version gives Dwarf decks some benefits while still being fluffy. The telling of tales can inspire Dwarves to heal quicker and overcome harsh circumstances.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] tale to heal a Dwarf or discard a condition.
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That would be very powerful indeed, enough that DoE would probably be the favored dwarf for FotR block. Dwarves have NO condition discard abilities other than Make Light of Burdens, which is rare and awful. Are we sure they need this much of a culture change?
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That would be very powerful indeed, enough that DoE would probably be the favored dwarf for FotR block. Dwarves have NO condition discard abilities other than Make Light of Burdens, which is rare and awful. Are we sure they need this much of a culture change?
Yes I wouldn't suggest something so out of character for the [Dwarven] culture either.
If I might summarise the concepts we're working on (and they're in two subsets, one mechanical and one cultural):
i) Turning non-tales into tales
ii) Counting tales in play
iii) Discarding tales for effect
iv) Protecting tale strategies
I) [Dwarven] centric tales
II) A range of specific culture tales ([Gandalf], [Gondor], [Elven], [Shire])
III) Dealing generically with any culture tales
Let's think in terms of these avenues (and any others we come up with).
While thinking about your card, I would suggest you think in this direction for mechanics:
What do tale strategies need? What problems do they have?
In what way does your proposal meet this need or solve that problem?
Try and make your proposals, as part of the goal of adding deckbuilding possibilities in FotR/Movie, answer those questions.
Thran
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A thought:
There are a total of nine [Dwarven] tales in Movie Block, with four of those tales being unique. Specifically, Ever My Heart Rises and Here is Good Rock both involve stacking, which means they will also be tied to other cards in a given deck. Subsequently, it follows that any [Dwarven] centric ability that involves discarding tales should have a strong gameplay effect, given the the fact that [Dwarven] tales are (1) few and far between and (2) discarding them also means discarding the cards stacked on them.
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Here's what I thought of- it's a bit of a throwback to Tbiesty's original.
[2]-Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion-Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Sig: Aragorn
Damage +1
Skirmish: Discard a tale from hand or from play to make Gimli strength +3 and lose all damage bonuses (limit once per skirmish).
I also think that Thran was on to something with the burrito cards, although they were a bit unbalanced and burrito cards didn't really exist in Fellowship block. Which reminds me- should we be considering the comparison with Gimli, Son of Gloin?
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A couple thoughts:
Several versions of Gimli are already like "do something to make Gimli strength +X", and Gimli, Feared Axeman is already a condition protector.
I think doing something with [Dwarven] tales is awesome, but let's have Gimli that does something slightly different then other versions of him.
Something like preventing a wound by discarding a tale, or fetching a tale from your draw deck when a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character is played are a couple ideas that are different but still "fit" for dwarves.
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Effects that already exist for [Dwarven] tales and don't need duplication:
- Mines of Khazad-dum heals Dwarf companions.
- Gloin, Friend to Thorin gets a strength bonus from [Dwarven] tales.
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Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.
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Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.
I have no problem with that, so long as it affects only [dwarf] conditions, although I don't see a particular use for that.
If it affected other cultures, it would be too powerful (I already mentioned an example regarding Pippin, FtF and TSC).
I also don't see the flavor of turning conditions into tales. There is not much of a tale behind From the Armory, My Axe Is Notched or Stout and Strong for example. Tales are stories from past adventures which inspire the fellowship to be better.
How about this:
[2] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarf]
Companion-Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Sig: Aragorn
Damage +1
Response: If a companion is about to take X wounds, you may exert Gimli and discard X Tales from play to prevent those wounds.
It's like Gimli has shared tales with other companions and the experience those companions got from those tales helped them survive. It's also not OP because you can't choose how many wounds you'd like to prevent, it has to be all or none.
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Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.
Though we would also have to consider its effect on Standard (and Expanded) with cards like Pippin, Steadfast Friend and A Dragon's Tale.
(NB: This is not something we should particularly be thinking about at this stage of the design process as we are primarily interested in concept, not details, but at some point we would have to deal with this).
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What about using tales as a fetching resource?
[2] Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarf]
Companion-Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Sig: Aragorn
Damage +1
Regroup: Exert Gimli and discard a [Dwarven] tale to take a Free People's card into hand from your discard pile.
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I have to agree with the previous thoughts that this Gimli should either be [Dwarven]-intensive, or perhaps [Dwarven] and [Gandalf].
And your card, as it stands, would be overpowered.
-wtk
Fair enough. Just make him only be able to fetch [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] cards.
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Actually, I think a lot of the power comes with the ability to fetch an extra skirmish pump, like Servant of the Secret Fire, or another completely universal card. Out of the High Airs before a double move?
The fact that it is a regroup action means that it is repeatable and if he has the exertions (Ring of Retribution, Endurance of Dwarves, anyone?), he could completely restock a hand before a key double move.
-wtk
But it's also dependent on having available tales to spend. I haven't seen a FOTR block shadow deck that doesn't pack at least some kind of condition removal, Saruman's Power notwithstanding. To completely restock a hand means you'd have to have several Tales on the table, which means you've devoted turns and resources to playing those tales that could have been spent playing other Free People's cards, not to mention the slots those tales take up in your deck.
Just because a card could be powerful doesn't mean that it's bad. If it needs some balancing, that's fine. But the whole point of this exercise is to design a card that (1) people will want to use and (2) actually makes a new and viable deck strategy.
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I have been reading the discussion a bit, and I wonder if people here knew the old tech for condition removal.... my dwarves always played party field and MoM Bilbo. I found the problem more that they lack good companions. They only have Gloin and Gimli as decent fighters.
How about this one:
(2) Gimli, Dwarf of Erebror.
6/3/A
Damage +1
Your non-unique dwarves are strength +1 and damage +1for each [Dwarven] tale (limit +2).
I find this a more elegant solution to the problem dwarves have in block. THis makes the dwarf guards much more playable. Tho I am wondering if they become too good for their cost.
Feel free to discuss.
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Just throwing a couple more random ideas out there. Maybe something will stick.
This one is just because Dwarves don't like Orcs.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While you can spot 2 [Dwarven] tales,
each Orc skirmishing a Dwarf is strength -1.
This next one uses the "digging" idea to fetch a tale. Hopefully the tale you want isn't the top card of your draw deck. :)
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of each Fellowship phase, you may
discard the top card of your draw deck to play
a [Dwarven] tale from your draw deck.
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Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.
lol, i use till durin wakes again in my TS dwarven tales deck.
so, i really really like wtk's idea. fetch any tale at the start of the regroup. that will only happen 7 times max. the only thing i'm not sure about is whether it should pull from draw deck or discard. because discard lets you use bilbo's text without worrying. but from the draw decks helps you set up faster and makes you still have to think twice before discarding a tale for an effect.
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Or a slight homage to his previous version:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Regroup: Exert Gimli and discard X [Dwarven] tales to reveal X cards from the top of your draw deck. Take all [Dwarven] cards into hand and place the rest beneath your draw deck in any order.
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it would be better to pull a gloing and draw x cards and then place x cards beneath your draw deck. but whatever.
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.
So far, I liked this one the most. It has flavor, it has power and yet it is tempered and I think in just the right amount.
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I also don't see the flavor of turning conditions into tales. There is not much of a tale behind From the Armory, My Axe Is Notched or Stout and Strong for example. Tales are stories from past adventures which inspire the fellowship to be better.
Ah, yes, but when the sole Dwarf in your party is describing the bounty of mithril in their armories of old, telling how Dwarves bested the Hill Giants by being Stout and Strong, and more to the point, when he tells the Hobbits about what happened in Helm, these ARE tales. Just saying.
As I said before, fetching any tale is out of flavor for what this Gimli should do, specially since the ones he'll fetch the most will end up being [Shire] and [Gondor]. Perhaps we're going at it the wrong way?
I was thinking about Fellowship block, and about the other blocks as well, and what I noticed, specially outside of FotR and using Reflections, is a lack of ways to build [Dwarven] decks. Or, at least, CREATIVE ways to do it, when you factor in those blocks. Also, Farin and Fror did very little for you, since you never knew which one to start, and never got them in the right order. First, I though about making Dwarf of Erebor like Farin and Fror, but geared toward other Shadows. It wouldn't work, at that point he knew nothing of the other Shadows. Also, I know Rare companions tend to have the more powerful effect, but every instance of them (C, U and R) have very different abilities, catering to different decks, so they all might be played depending on the circunstances. Taking this into account, I do think this Gimli should cater to an unnadressed deckbuilding concern. So, what do Gimlis have to offer in Movie?
-Hand unclogging and cycling;
-Choking;
-Strength (permanent - if conditions are met -, one-shot and one-shot to other companions);
-Crowd control (wounding after skirmish);
-Protecting [Dwarven] conditions;
-Damage (with strength).
So, let's think about deckbuilding concerns, Gimli-wise:
-You play a full [Dwarven] deck, meaning the decks play out the same (huge dwarves, move, ignore everything else), or;
-You splash a Dwarf, in which case he's "cute", but does very little, since most splash versions only care about the skirmish phase, meaning he won't forward strategies a lot, being more of a tag-along strength pump.
The two exceptions to those are the condition-protecting one (does he see any play at all? it doesn't seem likely...), and the original Dwarf of Erebor as a splash for combo decks that only care about cycling and not much about the Fellowship.
With this in mind, I think Dwarf of Erebor, flavor aside (for now), should in fact cater to the splash variety, but since I'm still trying to grasp flavor by its fingers before it slips, I think it should cater greatly to [Gandalf] decks, as a splash companion. I'll start my brainstorming from here, so, what I have so far, combining what everyone has said:
-Shouldn't be a "build-around-me" card;
-Signet should change to Gandalf (I assume the REGULAR Dwarf of Erebor will still be played, so, signet is not actually something we need to keep unchanged);
-Should perhaps do something with tales;
-Shouldn't require a boatload of cards to work, or he sucks as a splash companion;
-Shouldn't be SO specific as he ONLY splashes [Gandalf] decks, neither so universal that he splashes EVERY deck.
Considering this all, I've got:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a [Dwarven] tale from your draw deck or take a [Gandalf] card into hand from your discard pile.
I know that there are not a lot of [Dwarven] tales anyway (something that should be adressed in the future), and this Gimli both helps [Gandalf] decks, splashes nicely in decks that might play Gandalf (or loose [Gandalf] cards, like Let Folly Be Our Cloak, A Wizard is Never Late and Gandalf's Cart) but end up discarding him, giving you tools for building new decks, as now you have a more reliable way to get Gandalf into play even with fewer copies, if your deck fuels the discard pile a lot. It also plays well in [Dwarven] tale-oriented decks (or that play singletons as silver bullets), as he can find the needed tale, and since discarding tales is not quite that commonplace for Dwarves, playing from the draw deck gives you a wider range of possibilities to actually START playing silver bullets if you didn't already, not to mention fitting in slightly with the whole [Dwarven] cycling theme, since he effectively thins your draw deck every time you pull something from it.
Last, by keeping it to the regroup phase, you somewhat limit the uses he might have, sacrificing hand space for his versatility, which might be a fair trade.
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I agree with (and admire) your thought processes, FM, but disagree with your conclusion! As a designer, a card which gets [Dwarven] tales from the draw deck and [Gandalf] cards from the discard pile is deeply weird to me. Those are 4 different directions you're trying to put on 1 card.
What about this?
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1.
At the start of the fellowship phase, you may exert Gimli to play a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] condition from your discard pile.
ASIDE: I'm not sure how much people want signets or resistance—I know I definitely would rather signets were phased out and we kept resistance on all companions, but I'm willing to be disagreed with!
An alternative to work with tales would be:
"At the start of the fellowship phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale condition (or possession?) from your discard pile."
Or, at a stretch, I might think of something like:
"Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character from your hand to return a tale card in your discard pile to your hand."
Another idea:
"Each [Dwarven] and [Gandalf] tale you play is twilight cost -1."
I'm considering if actually fellowship phase abilities work better as they are used before you've moved and only maximum of one phase per turn.
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You know, the concept that tales are STILL conditons deeply eluded me! Can't believe I let that one slip. Sure, he can do stuff to conditions, and tales would simply fit in. However, I think limiting to tales might end up being better, simply because, well, now you've designed a near-immortal Gimli. :P
Play Axe of Erebor. Play Dwarven Heart, heal him twice, discard the condition with Axe, suck up 1 damage, exert him next turn, play it again healing up to full. And this is with just ONE condition. Conditions are pretty wild on design, so messing with the whole spectrum might warrant preparations. The idea of fetching [Gandalf] cards from the discard pile came from the fact he can fatch the spells Gandalf decks tend to have (and have to play), open more design space with recyling, and slightly helping overcome the drawback of Bearer of Obligation if need be. But I liked the thought process more than the idea itself, perhaps it can jump-start us in the right direction (even if it's not the direction I suggested).
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Good point about Dwarven Heart, that would be a problem... :-k Suggests the other ideas are more sensible then!
And you're right that we're not looking for finished products yet—just ideas to get us on the right track. Good card games will probably have a hundred cards designed and thought about for each card that gets printed!
Thran
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Thanks hrcho and macheteman. I'm glad to see you guys collecting the :gp: on my idea. [Bastards!]
-wtk
hahaha, epic! :up:
on a signets/ resistance note, i really think that signets are important to keep with the fotr/movie flavor. but perhaps we could even combine the tales and the signet something along the lines of:
discard a tale and spot x aragorn signets (or whatever signet we want. even "spot X different signets") to shuffle X tales into your draw deck. (or: to remove [X])
i realize this takes things in a different direction, but i think that signets were an underdeveloped idea, gandy sigs being the exception.
even still, i feel that for the tales strategy, wtk's version of gimli does the most while still being balanced. once you start grabbing [dwarf] and [gandalf] conditions or events, you have a whole new animal.
but "if that be the will of the council..."
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ASIDE: I'm not sure how much people want signets or resistance—I know I definitely would rather signets were phased out and we kept resistance on all companions, but I'm willing to be disagreed with!
Since signets are a fotr/movie thing, I personally would prefer to keep them. There is a lot of potential for signet-based strategies, they just weren't utilized a lot. However, the design of these virtual cards/sets gives us an opportunity to make use of underutilized things like tales, valiant, and signets in new creative ways.
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ASIDE: I'm not sure how much people want signets or resistance—I know I definitely would rather signets were phased out and we kept resistance on all companions, but I'm willing to be disagreed with!
Since signets are a fotr/movie thing, I personally would prefer to keep them. There is a lot of potential for signet-based strategies, they just weren't utilized a lot. However, the design of these virtual cards/sets gives us an opportunity to make use of underutilized things like tales, valiant, and signets in new creative ways.
I would agree with this, that one of the targets for us should be signets as they are and always have been underused. But, I'm very conscious of the fact that they're just not as elegant or as interesting (to me, at least) as resistance, and I also want these cards to be applicable in later sets.
My approach would be to make some cards that are specifically designed to support signet strategies—but otherwise ignore them on V-cards and use resistance instead. But this is really a discussion for another time, I think. For now, let's work with whatever we have for Gimli.
Thanks hrcho and macheteman. I'm glad to see you guys collecting the :gp: on my idea. [Bastards!]
-wtk
hahaha, epic! :up:
on a signets/ resistance note, i really think that signets are important to keep with the fotr/movie flavor. but perhaps we could even combine the tales and the signet something along the lines of:
discard a tale and spot x aragorn signets (or whatever signet we want. even "spot X different signets") to shuffle X tales into your draw deck. (or: to remove [X])
i realize this takes things in a different direction, but i think that signets were an underdeveloped idea, gandy sigs being the exception.
even still, i feel that for the tales strategy, wtk's version of gimli does the most while still being balanced. once you start grabbing [dwarf] and [gandalf] conditions or events, you have a whole new animal.
but "if that be the will of the council..."
I think I would also rather go for tales rather than [Dwarven] — [Gandalf] specifically.
Thran
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... "spot X different signets"...
Now, this is a very nice idea and something that should definitely be used (if not with Gimli, then with another card from this or future V-sets)
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My approach would be to make some cards that are specifically designed to support signet strategies—but otherwise ignore them on V-cards and use resistance instead.
I could be wrong, but aren't all companions considered to have a base resistance of 6 if they don't have a specific resistance value? Including a signet actually makes the card more flexible because you allow it to interact with cards that affect both resistance and signet, rather than just by cards that affect resistance only.
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My approach would be to make some cards that are specifically designed to support signet strategies—but otherwise ignore them on V-cards and use resistance instead.
I could be wrong, but aren't all companions considered to have a base resistance of 6 if they don't have a specific resistance value? Including a signet actually makes the card more flexible because you allow it to interact with cards that affect both resistance and signet, rather than just by cards that affect resistance only.
Yes, but you might also want the freedom to change a character's resistance from 6, and you also might want to have an ability referencing resistance—both of which are very difficult if not impossible for a character with a signet instead.
... "spot X different signets"...
Now, this is a very nice idea and something that should definitely be used (if not with Gimli, then with another card from this or future V-sets)
Yes, I don't think we should get distracted by signets in this discussion. I think tales is a strong enough idea on its own that we don't need to mix it with signets as well. Save signets for another card in this or future V-sets.
Thran
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your draw deck.
i think this gimli could be the best for contributing to the tales strategy while not exploding into completely new strategies. the draw deck ability fits the dwarven digging theme, and also makes gimli useful for setting up a little more quickly. still works well with gorn/gondor bowmen but rather than repeatedly replaying, it helps those bowmen come out when you need them. also very useful for cutting down on multiple copies of cards which can be another problem with tale decks. for instance, Red Book of Westmarch. to be useful, you need it early, but its unique. this gimli would allow you to use only one copy in your deck, freeing you up for more cards.
haveing heard all the perspectives so far, i like this idea the best. kudos to ket, i just like the draw deck better.
cheers
-mm
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I like it too. But, historically, [Dwarven] culture has been better at recursion than tutoring (are there any [Dwarven] tutors?). This doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, but it is something to bear in mind (in fact I think in general there aren't enough tutors in LotR and enough cultures that can do it).
Also, I think the digging flavour might come off better with something like "Reveal the top 3 cards of your draw deck; play a tale revealed, and discard the rest" or something similar.
Thran
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yeah, but i hate the "discard the rest" cards. plus there aren't enough tales to be sure you will have one in the top 3 cards.
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I know I'm not allowed an opinion in this, but I would like to say that Ket's card is the best posted so far.
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yeah, but i hate the "discard the rest" cards. plus there aren't enough tales to be sure you will have one in the top 3 cards.
Of course! It's not as good as tutoring, but that's what digging is like—you'll never know if you find something, and the rest of the time and earth is wasted. (NB, it also doesn't have to get discarded—nothing wrong with putting them on the bottom of the deck). Both that and recursion feel more [Dwarven] to me than tutoring. But obviously tutoring will be much more likely to put a dedicated "tale deck" over the edge.
I know I'm not allowed an opinion in this...
What the #$&*@! is that supposed to mean? :-? Of course you're allowed an opinion! Are you an LotR TCG player? Are you a member of TLHH? Obviously the answer to those questions is yes, so you can have an opinion! More to the point, we'd love to hear it.
Thran
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Could a member of the dream team collate all the ideas into one post?
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I've collected a selection of versions about tales, and I've categorised, tweaked, templated and standardised them. Of course this is NOT an exhaustive list! We should try and use these ideas here to springboard onto a final card. Also, I think it's worth remembering that it no longer matters who designed what card or exactly how it was originally, and one of the most important lessons for designers is to break the attachment with a card.
Let's also remember some of our goals for this card:
• To increase the viability of a dedicated tale deck
• To fit the flavour of Gimli as he comes to Rivendell from the Lonely Mountain at the beginning of his character arc
• To make an appealing [Dwarven] companion to help pre-Reflections [Dwarven] decks
• To make a Gimli that doesn't feel too similar to printed Gimlis
COUNTING TALES...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Skirmish: Exert Gimli to make him strength +1 for each [Dwarven] tale you can spot.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
While you can spot a tale, Gimli is damage +1.
While you can spot 3 tales, Gimli is strength +2.
While you can spot 5 tales, Gimli cannot take wounds (except during the archery phase).
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
While you can spot 2 [Dwarven] tales, your other Dwarf companions are strength +1 and damage +1.
TALES AS A RESOURCE...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Regroup: Exert Gimli and discard X [Dwarven] tales to reveal the top X cards of your draw deck. Take all [Dwarven] cards revealed into your hand, and place the rest beneath your draw deck in any order.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Your [Dwarven] tales may not be discarded by shadow cards.
Maneuver: Exert Gimli and discard X [Dwarven] tales from play to return a minion with twilight cost X or less to its owner's hand.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Response: If a companion is about to take X wounds, you may exert Gimli and discard X tales from play to prevent those wounds.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Maneuver: Discard a [Gondor] tale to make Gimli strength +2 and defender +1 until the regroup phase.
Archery: Discard a [Elven] tale to add 1 to the Fellowship archery total.
Skirmish: Discard a [Shire] tale to cancel a skirmish involving Gimli.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1
Fellowship: Discard a [shire] tale from play to heal a companion.
Archery: Discard an [elf] tale from play to add 1 to the fellowship archery total.
Regroup: Discard a [gondor] tale from play to wound a minion.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a tale from play to make a companion of that tale's culture strength +2.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of each skirmish involving Gimli, you may discard a tale from hand or from play to make Gimli strength +3 and lose all damage bonuses.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Regroup: Exert Gimli and discard a [Dwarven] tale from play to take a Free People's card into hand from your discard pile.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] tale from your hand to heal a Dwarf or discard a condition.
MAKING TALES...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
While you can spot 3 [Dwarven] tales, each Free Peoples condition is a tale.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, all your [Dwarven] conditions are tales.
Regroup: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] condition from your discard pile.
TALE ENABLER...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character to take a [Dwarven] tale into hand from your draw deck.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale condition or tale possession from your discard pile.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of each fellowship phase, you may discard the top card of your draw deck to play a [Dwarven] tale condition from your draw deck.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Resistance: 6
Damage +1.
Each tale you play is twilight cost -1.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a [Dwarven] tale from your draw deck or take a [Gandalf] card into hand from your discard pile.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.
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Thanks a lot Thranduil. You forgot about this one:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.
Just saying.
-wtk
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Thanks a lot Thranduil. You forgot about this one:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.
Just saying.
-wtk
No I didn't! 2nd Tale Enabler. I templated it a bit so that there was no confusion with events, but otherwise it's the same card.
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He didn't. He said he modified the options listed and he changed yours to:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale condition or possession from your discard pile.
He changed from tale to tale condition because playing tale events might a bit too confusing (although only NFFATROD and Might of Numenor would actually provide an effect) and he added a possession part for the ability to play Red Book of Westmarch and Book of Mazarbul.
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But that's not what I had written.
As there is a rule against playing events out of phase, I have no problem with my original wording and would prefer it be kept as such.
-wtk
There is such a rule, but it's confusing because the rule would never be written on a card. Cards that don't do what they say should be avoided.
Thran
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Also, the wording would need to be "or tale possession", otherwise, you can play ANY possession.
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I agree that cards should do what they say; however, I disagree that cards should be written less-simply than they need to in order to confirm something that is already a rule.
Who is to say that, in the future, someone won't want to create a Tale event that is playable in the regroup phase?
My point is, there was no confusion with events as it is meant to play any Tale in the regroup phase--even regroup events that are tales (of which none yet exist). There is already precedent to the card as I wrote it (Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled) which is written just fine and the CRD is a resource to confirm, "No, you can't play Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom in the regroup phase."
-wtk
Yes, and I would argue strongly that printing Bilbo, BotB as written was a mistake and he should have only been able to play conditions/possessions. It is not in any way obvious to explain to newer players that conditions can be played out of phase while events can't. One of the things we have an opportunity to do with the TLHH group is to make clearer wordings and templating, following the example of MTG for example.
I do think that you are right FM.
Thran
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Frankly, I saw a card that was completely different than what I intended it to be.
-wtk
No—I changed a tiny bit of functionality (which I think at the moment is in fact no functionality) for a much clearer card that is in no way confusing. If you want to keep the identical functionality, then you could just add to the text "... to play a tale condition, tale possession or tale regroup event..." which is so much less cleaner that I didn't put it there, but it still works and it still does what it says and it still works.
Also, if this is an exhaustive list of ideas then who are you to "clean up" the text? When cards get nominated for further rounds, people can discuss the merits of the text as written or suggest improvements.
I wasn't trying to be authoritative, saying "these are the cards we're going to look at!" Far from it, I was summarising and categorising some of the approaches we've had so far using designs that I felt had the most promise. Of course, all the cards posted remain in this thread in their original for anyone at any point to look over. I certainly don't think we should lose any of the cards or discussion we've had so far.
In fact, there is a rule that says that events cannot be played out of phase and prior examples, such as Pass of Caradhras or Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled support the fact that, if you know the rules, simpler gametext isn't a problem.
-wtk
And the thing that all success in this enterprise rests on is bringing in new players, who don't necessarily know the rules. It's all very well for you and I, but try explaining that little subtlety to someone who doesn't know that rule. It's confusing and unnecessary.
Thran
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Frankly, I saw a card that was completely different than what I intended it to be.
-wtk
No—I changed a tiny bit of functionality
Are you telling me what I saw? Because if I had identified my own submission, I wouldn't have posted that it wasn't there in the first place.
I still think that it is completely inappropriate to change a card as written--particularly in the summarizing phase--and then say, these are what we are looking at.
This is why this kind of thing is a bad idea. Everyone here claims to want more deck options and then you are narrowing those very options. The fact is, Decipher made the call on this one, phrased a card as such in the first set, then repeated it in a later set which, as far as I'm concerned, made my wording correct as to what I wanted the card to do.
Rather than being authoritative--which you were--leave the card as is and suggest that it is cleared up when things go into further discussion (which, I remind you, no one did to this point). It gives everyone a chance to discuss the values of a card being written one way versus another rather than a "I prefer it this way because I interpret it as being more clear" and moving on.
I don't think you have the high ground on this argument at all.
-wtk
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I'm of course sorry if I upset you, and that was definitely not my intention.
I'm happy to continue this discussion by PM, but I don't think it's worth clogging up this thread any more.
Thran
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I'd like to see my card idea restored as well to the original state. I know its strong towards OP, but I rather see discussion about the old idea then forcing it into a certain option not even discussed.
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I've added the cards in question. Again apologies if I mistepped.
Thran
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I'd also like to see the 4-way Gimli I made for [Gandalf] and [Dwarven]posted there, even if only to be called overpowered. :D
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just curious, was it intentional that you did not include a version of gimli who could play generic tales from the draw deck? i see the one who plays [dwarf] tales at the start of the fellowship. its cool if you meant to not include it, i'm just wondering. i guess i feel that even if it doesn't quite fit with fotr dwarves, it certainly fits the feel of fotr tales.
but its whatever, thanks thran for posting that list.
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just curious, was it intentional that you did not include a version of gimli who could play generic tales from the draw deck? i see the one who plays [dwarf] tales at the start of the fellowship. its cool if you meant to not include it, i'm just wondering. i guess i feel that even if it doesn't quite fit with fotr dwarves, it certainly fits the feel of fotr tales.
but its whatever, thanks thran for posting that list.
No it wasn't particularly intentional, but I did notice that it was very similar to several other versions, and the fact that you're bringing it up means that the idea is not forgotten!
Thran
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor [Dwarven] (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, all your Dwarven conditions are tales.
Regroup: Exert Gimli twice to play a Dwarven condition from your discard pile.
This one is my favourite, by I would only make it one exert for the regroup action.
Also, I think everyone should lay off Thranduil as he is obviously doing a lot of work to help all of us come up with a (V) set
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As I discussed with Thran, if you let if go for one exert, you can infi-heal (long term, not instantaneous) with Dwarven Heart + Gimli's Helm. He'll stop any minion, ever, for free. Dwarven Heart needs to be kept in mind when dealing with "exert-to-play" effects.
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Is there a regroup action to discard Dwarven Heart? If not, he is going to start exerting himself up again.
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so what is the plan to move forward from here?
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Everyone needs to pick a favourite!
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And how about we move along the next one, while we're at it?
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I rather like this one:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, all your [Dwarven] conditions are tales.
Regroup: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] condition from your discard pile.
Though I'd probably give him Gandalf's signet, it it's a possibility.
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personally i don't like any of the cards that make things tales. i think i vote for ket's at the start of the regroup phase exert gimli to play a tale.
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personally i don't like any of the cards that make things tales. i think i vote for ket's at the start of the regroup phase exert gimli to play a tale.
I agree.
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personally i don't like any of the cards that make things tales. i think i vote for ket's at the start of the regroup phase exert gimli to play a tale.
3rd
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personally i don't like any of the cards that make things tales. i think i vote for ket's at the start of the regroup phase exert gimli to play a tale.
+1
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I think if we're looking for a card that has the maximum impact on deckbuilding (ie. the most likely sort of card to make a tale deck viable), then we should be looking strongly at:
i) Cards that make more tales (it doesn't have to be permanent necessarily, could be a temporary effect)
ii) Cards that give tales extra utility
iii) Cards that help you set up tale strategies
These are most of the cards posted above, but I think we should be using these as criteria for which is the best card at doing the job assigned to it: making a tale deck more viable.
From a deckbuilding standpoint, my first instinct would that option (i) is the best as it immediately opens up whole new possibilities that would never have been there before.
However, thinking more about it, I suspect that there actually isn't enough to be done with tales in Movie block (and possibly A Dragon's Tale / Pippin, Steadfast Friend could be slightly degenerate or annoying) to make (i) the best criteria.
In fact, I think our choice then hinges on exactly how much there is the game currently for you to do with tales. How many cards are there that give tales utility? (Like Red Book of Westmarch, A Dragon's Tale, Pippin, Steadfast Friend etc.) If there are "lots", then I would suggest we look specifically at criteria (iii). If there aren't, then I think the best card for deckbuilding would be chosen by criteria (ii).
Is my ranting making sense? Please tell me if it's not! ;)
Thran
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I think we should narrow it down to 1-3 cards in each category, and go with your reasoning, meaning, choosing the criteria we want to match more. How's this for the process? If we narrow it to 1 card per criteria, we could playtest the STRATEGIES, rather than the cards, and see which has the most impact.
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I think we should narrow it down to 1-3 cards in each category, and go with your reasoning, meaning, choosing the criteria we want to match more. How's this for the process? If we narrow it to 1 card per criteria, we could playtest the STRATEGIES, rather than the cards, and see which has the most impact.
Agreed! So we ought to try and choose/edit/produce a version for each criteria that most represents that strategy.
Thran
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Okay so these are my thoughts of cards that best represent each of those three criteria (all inspired by cards posted above). We can then discuss them. I'm choosing/tweaking/designing these cards & abilities based solely on what I think represents the strategies best, not any other considerations, so please take no offense. And I'm always open to people disagreeing with my choices! (Though, as I say below, when you're playtesting a strategy, the details of the card shouldn't matter, just the direction).
i) Telling tales...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, each [Dwarven] support area condition is a tale.
Fellowship: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] support area condition from your discard pile.
NOTE: Regroup recursion has often shown itself to be too powerful (eg. Treebeard, Keeper of the Watchwood) because there are many conditions which are balanced by the fact that you have to keep them around (eg. Reckless Pride, et al) so I moved it to fellowship. I also tentatively skirted the problem of Dwarven Heart by restricting both abilities to support area conditions, which sort of makes sense anyway. The thing that worries me about this card is how friendly it will be with Pippin, Steadfast Friend and A Dragon's Tale—but I'm pretty sure that in Movie block it will be fine.
ii) Extra utility...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a tale from play or from hand to make a companion of that tale's culture strength +1 and damage +1.
NOTE: I'm not sure of the virtues of doing it this multicultural route or a more [Dwarven] focussed route or something like "discard a [Dwarven] tale to make a companion strength +2..." or something else. It did certainly seem to me that the best way to push a tale strategy over the top in this criteria was a tool to help your team survive. I added the damage bonus to make it feel more like a [Dwarven] card. What worries me about this card is that it might conflict with other discarding tale cards, like A Dragon's Tale and Balin's Tomb, which could lead to frustrating deckbuilding decisions. However, I doubt there are enough of those to make this a real problem.
iii) Setting up...
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.
NOTE: This seemed the cleanest and simplest build, notwithstanding my comments about regroup recursion generally being problematic for balance. However, this avoids some of that issue by only recurring tales. I'm also not sure about doing it by recursion or by tutoring—tutoring is obviously the better one for setting up a deck early game, while recursion can only make it more consistent late game. On the other hand, I don't think there are any other particular tale recursion cards, whereas The Council of Elrond might have it on the tutoring front. On yet another hand, does Bilbo, BotB already have the "play tales in the regroup phase" thing covered? which might be a different argument for moving it to fellowship.
So, as FM suggested, I think we should run with similar cards to these and sound out some new strategies for each one. Take one, build a tale deck, see if you like the strategy and if it's any good. Try different formats (particularly Standard and Movie). In order to playtest a strategy, the details of the cards don't matter that much. And, in this approach, you should feel free to tweak the numbers as you're playing because what feels right in your head is not necessarily what will feel right when you actually play. So all in all, I think with a bit of discussion, we should be ready to go!
Thranduil
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[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Gandalf
Damage +1.
While you can spot Gandalf, each [Dwarven] support area condition is a tale.
Fellowship: Exert Gimli twice to play a [Dwarven] support area condition from your discard pile.
This goes for the first and third entry on this list, but I believe that playing cards from the discard pile is more in the [Dwarven] theme than the draw deck. I can't think of a [Dwarven] "play from draw deck" card; most of them are the "discard three and take one," etc., which is more with the idea of Dwarves being diggers.
I think that the change to "Support Area" condition makes sense in this case.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a tale from play or from hand to make a companion of that tale's culture strength +1 and damage +1.
This is the one that I like the least of the three; I just think the wording is awkward and adding a damage bonus to a few cultures who do not intrinsically have them--[Shire], specifically--could be problematic.
I was never particularly fond of companions that had built-in strength pump skirmish actions as abilities without having an exert to balance that out. Gimli, Son of Gloin, Gimli, Unbidden Guest, and Legolas, Elven Comrade are examples of of cards where they got it right--a bit of risk/reward there. At the very least, I would think that this Gimli would need a limit of 1 or 2 which I know people won't like.
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of the regroup phase, you may exert Gimli to play a tale from your discard pile.
Again, I think the "playing from regroup" is the best call as I explained earlier. Draw deck tutoring for specific cards should be limited to what it is now--A Wizard Is Never Late, Simbelmyne, and The Council of Elrond, Theoden, Tall and Proud (specifically, his death) among a few others; these cards represent some of the most powerful themes and histories in Middle Earth and they are the sort of things that would become tales. Sure, Gimli himself became a tale--he basically started the [Dwarf]-[Elven] friendship thing, but unlike Theoden, Tall and Proud, which really tells about the epic tale of a king's death, Gimli doesn't have a big historical showing of chilling in the regroup phase (or Fellowship phase or whatever people would end up preferring).
Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled and Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) don't really fall into the same jurisdiction as Bilbo can only play the cards from hand. In fact, if one was trying, he or she could probably find a great strategy for the two cards to potentially be played together. Maybe Gimli to grab a tale, Red Book of Westmarch to draw one (which might be a tale) that Bilbo could play? Worst case scenario, you could lose and gain initiative a few times and manipulate A Light In His Mind, right?*
-wtk
_____________
* P.S., I really don't have a problem with that as it is way harder to pull off than a The Shire Countryside, A Light In His Mind combination in the Fellowship phase or even the skirmish phase and would require careful planning.
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Personally, I liked your choices for entries number 1 and 3, but would change number 2 for this one:
[2] •Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V) [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1
Fellowship: Play a [Dwarven] tale from your hand to heal a Dwarf or discard a condition.
However, the regroup ability is way over the top, even with the low [Dwarven] tale count, so I'd tweak it to only affect conditions that are played on companions (or even lose the condition part altogether).
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Neither do I, but it COULD be a nice addition. Also, to do so, they must: a) forsake other Gimlis for this one and b) play tales. It's different from an event or condition that can deal with shadow conditions, which I would be against. Or a toss-in companion, for instance. But the ability, on an iconic companion that forces a choice, is more than fine. Specially when it does not deal with ANY condition, but rather just those afflicting a character (and it also fits flavour, since Gimli was a bit of an enthusiast - which tends to "lift the spirits" of others - upon arriving at the council, right until his axe was shattered, of course!).
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tales already had bilbo for condition removal. :up:
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Good catch.
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my TS dwarven tales deck works like this: 9 comps with a dwarven core, gloin, ftt + mines of kazad dum + bilbo, wsgh + red book of westmarch.
then a hodge-podge of dwarven tales play a tale or two mass heal, draw a card, bilbo to clear conditions, and the tale's text can sometimes monkey wrench the opponent if they happen to be playing moria or something.
greatest kingdom of my people, stairs of kazad dum, and then till durin wakes again really helps on a double move.
it is very strong in healing and condition removal, archery is fairly easy to defend because there are so many comps to share the load, then just heal everyone with tales. its main weaknesses are that if it doens't set up well you can easily lose gloin early, and it can be very tough to win skirmishes. its more of a scrappy survival deck than anything. ticks your opponent off if they can't keep wounds on your fellowship or conditions on the table.
all that to say, healing and condition removal are not especially necessary for a tales deck, of course tales healing outside of [dwarf] is limited at best, so there is still some room for improvement.
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my TS dwarven tales deck works like this: 9 comps with a dwarven core, gloin, ftt + mines of kazad dum + bilbo, wsgh + red book of westmarch.
then a hodge-podge of dwarven tales play a tale or two mass heal, draw a card, bilbo to clear conditions, and the tale's text can sometimes monkey wrench the opponent if they happen to be playing moria or something.
greatest kingdom of my people, stairs of kazad dum, and then till durin wakes again really helps on a double move.
it is very strong in healing and condition removal, archery is fairly easy to defend because there are so many comps to share the load, then just heal everyone with tales. its main weaknesses are that if it doens't set up well you can easily lose gloin early, and it can be very tough to win skirmishes. its more of a scrappy survival deck than anything. ticks your opponent off if they can't keep wounds on your fellowship or conditions on the table.
all that to say, healing and condition removal are not especially necessary for a tales deck, of course tales healing outside of [dwarf] is limited at best, so there is still some room for improvement.
So playtest these Gimlis in your tale deck! ;) You don't need slips or anything, nor even to know the exact numbers or details of the card. Throw a Gimli in your starting fellowship, use one of the abilities above, see what happens!
Thran
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I am awesome.
My vote goes to anything BUT ket's submission. Pffft. :P
OK, so I've been out a bit, but I like what I've been seeing. Just wanted to throw my two cents in here (again) and strongly suggest that FotR cards are appropriate to FotR block rules. Keep signets! No resistance for companions! I'd venture to say that most of the designers here are fonder of Movie Block than Standard/Expanded, and we're perfectly happy to keep (new) old cards in line with the old rulesets. ;)
So playtest these Gimlis...!
Find a friend, decide on which one to use, and take it to the GCCG playtesting table!
I'll look into coding things once the designs have been playtested sufficiently and finalized.
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We need dedicated playtesters.
I will provide reward for said playtesters.
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the tough part is finding other players on GCCG who want to play against a deck that isn't official. if we make a board of people we might have a better chance of linking people who are willing to give it a go.