The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Chamber of Mazarbul => Topic started by: -Enola- on December 12, 2014, 12:59:43 AM
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This first post will be frequently updated.
Last Updates
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Gandalf3.png
[2] Gandalf, The Grey [Gandalf]
Companion. Wizard.
Strength 7. Vitality 4.
Wise.
Each time you play a [Gandalf] event, you may wound a minion (except Smaug).
Fellowship: Add 2 doubts to play an artifact or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck or discard pile.
"Dragon sickness is a malady that affects all of us."
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Bilbo Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/An_Invisible_Ring.png
2x [1] An Invisible Ring [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
If Bilbo wears the One Ring, wound a minion he is skirmishing X times where X is the number of skirmish events with a twilight cost of 0 in your discard pile.
"...not a fair fight. He was invisible now."
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Mirkwood Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Emeralds_of_Girion.png
3x [2] •Emeralds of Girion [Dwarven]
Artifact • Support Area
Fellowship: Add [1] to take a card stacked here into hand.
Regroup: Exert an [Elven] ally to stack an [Elven] event (or Lore of Imladris) from your discard pile on Emeralds of Girion.
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Thorin Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/The_Arkenstone.png
3x [2] •The Arkenstone [Dwarven]
Artifact • Support Area
Fellowship: Add [1] to take a card stacked here into hand.
Maneuver: Stack a [Dwarven] card from hand on the Arkenstone.
"..."
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Dwarven_Song.png
3x [3] Dwarven Song [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
At sites 1 to 5, discard a [Dwarven] follower with a twilight cost of X to play X [Dwarven] cards (except events) from your draw deck. At any other site, heal Thorin.
"For..."
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Thrain Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Thrain.png
3x [2] •Thráin, Father of Thorin [Dwarven]
Follower • Dwarf.
Strength +1
Aid - Spot Gandalf and add [2].
Each time bearer wins a skirmish, you may play a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck on bearer.
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Wizard Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/His_Wrath_Was_Redoubled.png
2x [3] •Beorn, Bear Form [Gandalf]
Follower • Bear.
Strength +4 Vitality +1
Aid - Exert Gandalf.
Discard Beorn at the end of the turn.
"..."
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Blue Mountains Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Dwarven_Cooking_Pot.png
3x [1] •Dwarven Cooking Pot [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
Each time you play Bifur, Bofur or Bombur, you may place a [Dwarven] token here.
Fellowship or Regroup: Remove a [Dwarven] token from here to take a [Dwarven] event with a twilight cost of 1 into hand from your discard pile (limit once per phase).
"Cheese knife? He eats it by the block..."
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Eager_To_Brawl.png
2x [1] Eager To Brawl [Dwarven]
Event • Response
If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, spot a [Dwarven] follower with a twilight cost of X to discard X minions (except Smaug).
"Go Bombur! Go!"
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/7_Front_Gate_of_Erebor.png
2x Site 7 Front Gate of Erebor [8]
Mountain. River. Bifur, Bofur and Bombur may be attached to [Dwarven] companions without paying the aid cost.
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Rivendell Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Moon_Letters.png
2x [1] Moon-Letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard a [Dwarven] card (except a companion) in play to take into hand an [Elven] or [Mirkwood] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
"This was made by Thrór, your grandfather, Thorin... It is a plan of the Mountain."
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Travellers Pack
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http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Burning_Fir_Cones.png
2x [1] Burning Fir Cones [Gandalf]
Possession • Support Area
Archery: Spot Gandalf and add [3] to reveal your hand. Wound a minion for each Free Peoples skirmish event revealed. Discard this possession.
"He gathered the huge pinecones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire..."
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Bill_Ferny_Sr.png
2x [2] •Bill Ferny Sr., Agent of Azog [Gundabad]
Minion. Man.
Strength 4. Vitality 1. Site 2.
The Free Peoples player may not assign a character to skirmish Bill Ferny Sr.
Bill Ferny Sr. may not be assigned to skirmish Bilbo.
Shadow: Discard 2 cards from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.
"'A promise of payment... for your head.'"
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About those 2 versions of Thorin proposed for the Extension:
I was thinking about and found both should have [3] as cost, in order to allow him to be played along with Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves (the only Gandy who won't play a desired dwarf from deck). And Son of Thráin Son of Thrór must be modified as the current is heavily overpowered: he might easily end up being strength 15 or more with wounds and tales, so that bonus must be limited. This is what I mean:
[3] •Thorin, Son of Thráin Son of Thrór [Dwarven]
Companion - Dwarf
Strength: 7 Vitality: 4
Damage +1. Thorin is strength +1 for each wound on a character in his skirmish.
Assignment: Assign Thorin to an Orc, a Warg or Smaug to make him defender +1 and damage +1 until the regroup phase (limit once per phase).
"We few had survived and I thought to myself then 'There is one I could follow. There is one I could call King'."
No strength bonus from tales. The new strength bonus text is borrowed from Uruk Berserkers, surviviors and slayers par excellence. Also its a great skill to mix with the assignment ability: if he fights 2 minions, potentially there will be more wounds to spot (and a greater need of spotting them). With those 2 skills, Thorin can be a one-to-one killer, a killer of small minions, or a defender against two big beasts.
Keep in mind that strength bonus is quite dangerous, as a simple unexpected skirmish event may send an exhausted Thorin to the dead pile if it catches you unguarded. Nevertheless, it a very powerful version of the Exiled King: a bold hearted warrior who doesn't fear death but offers it to anyone in his path.
If there won't be a random choice of Thorin (which seems OK), let Lord of the Blue Mountains be the fixed version, and Son of Thráin Son of Thrór be in the Extension Booster deck (because that version is far more powerful).
I've been working on Warg minions and their mechanics... soon will be posted.
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My friend Enola, I firmly believe you will like this Skirmish Event:
[3] Dissension [Sauron]
Event - Skirmish
Spot X doubts to make a Dwarf companion strength -X. While you can spot The Arkenstone, this event's twilight cost is -2.
If a Free Peoples skirmish event was played this turn, you may exert Smaug twice to play this event from your discard pile.
"I am almost tempted to let you take it, if only to see Oakenshield suffer... watch it corrupt his heart and drive him mad."
Picture: Thorin blocking Bilbo's escape with his sword. Something like these images:
http://d2oah9q9xdinv5.cloudfront.net/images/members/2/1960/1959851/882695_719273701419276_1627335685_o.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Tvf-gf0jYAE/U5lPNRq1MgI/AAAAAAAAA78/DxhOMMDNcNU/s1600/1669821_609647675783159_3304679906110871335_o.jpg
I don't know what culture should have. I think Sauron is the common enemy and universal source of evil, and he always tried to cause dissension amongst the Free Peoples. This card's culture might be [Wraith] or [Gundabad] very well...
I want to include 2x of this one in the Extension Main deck. Or at least 1x.
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There is my actual proposition for the next Free Peoples packs :
Free Peoples Events Pack (16 cards) :
- 1x Take up arms. Fight!
- 2x A Wizard Is Never Late
- 2x He gives me courage
- 1x Dawn take you all!
- 2x Noble Intentions
- 2x Battle of Azanulbizar
- 2x Ancestral Knowledge
- 2x Battle Fury
- 1x Lore of Imladris
- 1x To Me ! O My Kinsfolk !
Dain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Dain Ironfoot : Cost (3). Home 9. Strength 7, Vitality 3. Ally. Dwarf. Thorin is strength +1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may discard a [dwarven] follower to discard a minion (except Smaug).
- 2x • The Arkenstone
- 2x Mithril Coat : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession • Hand Weapon. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each minion skirmishing Bilbo does not gain strength or damage bonuses from weapons. Response: If a minion skirmishing Bilbo uses a special ability, exert Bilbo to prevent that.
- 2x Dwarven Axe : Cost (0). [Dwarven] Possession • Hand Weapon. Strength +2. Bearer must be a Dwarf.
- 2x To Me ! O My Kinsfolk !
Wizard Pack(10 cards) :
- 2x • Radagast
- 2x • Beorn
- 2x • Gwaihir
- 2x Wizard Staff : Cost (2). [Gandalf] Possession • Staff. Strength +1. Skirmish: Exert bearer twice to make a minion strength -3 until the regroup phase.
- 2x Dawn take you all!
Mirkwood Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Thranduil : Cost (4). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 9, Vitality 4. To play, discard a possession. Maneuver: Exert Thorin twice or discard a [Dwarven] possession to allow Thranduil to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x • Tauriel : Cost (2). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Archer. Maneuver: Exert Tauriel to return Narzug or Yazneg to it's owner hand.
- 2x • Legolas : Cost (2). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Archer. Archery: Spot an Orc and exert Legolas to make the fellowhip archery total +1.
- 2x Barrels : Cost (1). [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to discard up to 2 minions.
- 2x Lore of Imladris
Esgaroth Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • The Master
- 2x • Baïn, Son of Bard : Cost (2). Ally. Man. Home 6. Strength 4, Vitality 3. Maneuver: Exert Baïn to allow Bard to participate in archery and skirmish phases until the regroup phase.
- 2x Iron-Forged Weapon : Cost (2). [Gandalf] Possession • Hand Weapon. Strength +2. Bearer must be a Man or a Dwarf. Skirmish: If bearer is not assigned to a skirmish, discard this possession to wound a skirmishing minion.
- 2x Laketown Armor : Cost (1). [Gandalf] Possession • Armor. Bearer must be a Man or a Dwarf. Response: If bearer is about to take a wound, discard this possession to prevent that wound.
- 2x Take up arms. Fight!
White Council Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Saruman : Cost (4). Ally. Wizard. Home 3. Strength 8, vitality 4. Response: If Gandalf is about to take a wound, exert Saruman and add (2) to prevent that wound.
- 2x • Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 3, vitality 3. Gandalf is strength +1. Response: If Gandalf is about to be overwhelmed, exert Galadriel to make Gandalf strength +2.
- 2x • Narya : Cost (0). Possession • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Gandalf. Response: If Gandalf is about to be discarded, exert him to prevent this.
- 2x Gathering of the three Great Rings : [Gandalf] Cost (3). Event. Skirmish : Make X minions strength -X until the regroup phase, where X is the number of the following characters you can spot : Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel.
- 2x Former Herald : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Maneuver: Spot Gandalf and exert an ally twice to allow him to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
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The thematic Booster Pack idea is great, sir. 5 different cards to represent a part or a culture may be enough. I love Gathering of the Three Great Rings, and your modification to Wizard Staff.
There are some wording errors here, but little ones and of minor importance:
- Mithril-Coat: [Dwarven] Possession • Armor.
- Bain, Son of Bard: "Exert Bain to allow Bard to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase".
- Iron-Forged Weapon: "Skirmish: If bearer is not assigned to a skirmish, discard this possession to wound a minion assigned to skirmish" or "a minion in a skirmish". Or just "a minion" would be enough for the purpose.
- Narya: "Response: If Gandalf is about to be discarded, exert him to prevent that".
- Former Herald: "Spot Gandalf and exert an ally twice to allow that ally to participate in (archery fire? and) skirmishes until the regroup phase".
There are some observations I would like to pronounce:
- What about Bain making Bard strength +1 or +2 (like Galadriel)? That way Bard would be a strength 7 or 8 defender, which represents in a better way his skills as a fighter and a leader facing the enemy hordes. Take into account it's a 2-cards combo, or 3-cards if he bears an Iron-Forged Weapon. Bain won't get healed anyway (unless an ally-healing ability is incorporated)...
- Former Herald's purpose is great, but its cost of a double exertion for just an event (not a condition) is too much. An event with only 2 copies, which may not appear when drafting, or even not be drawn if it's in the deck. Unlike Swan-Ship of the Galadhrim and Support of the Last Homely House, it doesn't give strength bonuses so the ally is almost doomed to die as cannon fodder (even Saruman or Radagast will die against Azog or Bolg given the double exertion). I would reduce the exertion to one, and give the ally strength +2 (like One Whom Men Would Follow, except Aragorn is who gets exerted in that card).
- Galadriel's strength is too low. It was she who fought Sauron and forced him out in the movie, and according to Tolkien she was the strongest elf in the Third Age (both in spirit and physically) and her power was second to only Sauron. Her strength 3 was made by Decipher probably because of her slender and more or less kind appearance, and to match her vitality and twilight cost. She should be strength 7 or 8, or at least 6 like her husband (who has a lighter twilight cost and same vitality). It shouldn't surprise us that TCG designers fall sometimes to sexism...
- Tauriel is way too specific. She can counter those annoying orcs, but her skill should be broader in my opinion, something like "to return an orc with strength 7 or less to it's owner's hand". Given her scarce vitality, her skill won't be abused anyway (again, unless an ally-healing ability is incorporated). And if you use my idea, a simple possession like a Scimitar borne by Narzug might render her skill useless against him (or a strength +3 warg borne by Yazneg).
- Tauriel doesn't show her skills as a healer.
- Why is Lore of Imladris present in the Mirkwood Pack? I understand the need of healing, but the Woodland Realm was hostile to Thorin, while Rivendell was friendly... I think it should be replaced with an [Elven] event showing Tauriel's skills as a healer. "[1] Event • Regroup. Discard a card from hand to heal a companion once (or twice if you can spot Tauriel)" or so.
- Barrels should have some interaction with river keyword. "Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions (or 1 at a river) to...", or "Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to discard 2 minions (or 3 minions at a river)". Or "You may exert 2 companions (or any suitable cost you ideate) at a river to play this event from your discard pile"... Or "Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to discard 2 minions (and make the move limit +1 for this turn if the current site is a river)"... The last one is my favourite.
- Dwarven Axe should give damage +1 at mountain or battleground sites. There's a general lack of damage bonus for those battle-ready dwarves (the strongest FP cuture in respect of damage in LOTR TCG), and there are too many high vitality minions (Smaug, Trolls, mounted Orcs, The Great Goblin, Orkish Marauder...). Or even something like "Skirmish: play a [Dwarven] event or discard a [Dwarven] card from hand to make bearer damage +1".
- I'd add a doubt cost or doubt interaction ("each time a doubt is added, add [1]") for Saruman... Just for flavor. And maybe a -1 strength addition to Radagast if there's enough room, flavor again.
- Is there any instrinsic way to allow Radagast to meet Gandalf or the Company (in other words, make him fight far from home)? He joins Gandalf 5 times: first at the Trollshaw Forest, then at Rhudaur, then at Dol Guldur's entrance, then at Dol Guldur itself, and at last he joins the Battle of the Five Armies. And fights (or deviates) foes in 3 of them... "Maneuver: Exert Radagast twice (or once at a plains or forest) to allow him to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase". The text is too long, maybe it can fit if the move limit addition is removed.
Just thoughts. Hope these are helpful.
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Hey Durin's Heir, I took into account most of your advices.
Dain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Dain Ironfoot : Cost (3). Home 9. Strength 7, Vitality 3. Ally. Dwarf. Thorin is strength +1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may discard a [dwarven] follower to discard a minion (except Smaug).
- 2x Iron Hills Army : Cost (3). Ally. Dwarf. Home 9. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Maneuver : If you can spot more minions than companions, exert Iron Hils Army and discard a [dwarven] follower to make an opponent discard a minion.
- 2x • The Arkenstone
- 2x Mithril Coat : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession • Armor. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each minion skirmishing Bilbo does not gain strength or damage bonuses from weapons. Response: If a skirmish event is played during a skimish involving Bilbo, exert him to cancel that event.
- 2x Thror's Heirlooms Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play a [Dwarven] possession from your draw deck or discard pile.
Thrain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Thrain : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Follower. Dwarf. Strength +1. Aid: Exert Gandalf and add (2). Response: If bearer wins a skirmish, you may play a [Dwarven] possession from your draw deck
(référence au fait que Gandalf récupère à la base la carte et la clef de Thror auprès de Thrain mourant dans les cachots de Dol Guldur)
- 2x • Thror's Map : cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. The Shadow's number of sites 7 and 8 is -2. Regroup: If the fellowship is at site 6 or less, exert bearer and add (2) to discard a minion.
- 2x • Thror's Key : cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Fellowship: Exert a Dwarf companion to play the fellowship's next site if it is a mountain (replacing opponent's site if necessary).
- 2x • Burglar's Contract : Cost (1). [Shire] Possession. Strength +1. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each time Bilbo wins a skirmish, you may remove a doubt.
- 2x King Under the Mountain [Dwarven] Cost (1). Event. Fellowship: Add a doubt to play a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck.
Mirkwood Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Thranduil : Cost (4). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 9, Vitality 4. Maneuver: Exert Thorin twice or discard a [Dwarven] possession to allow Thranduil to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x • Tauriel : Cost (2). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Archer. Maneuver: Exert Tauriel to return an Orc with strength 7 or less to its owner's hand.
- 2x • Legolas : Cost (2). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Archer. Archery: Spot an Orc and exert Legolas to make the fellowhip archery total +1.
- 2x Elf Army : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 7, Vitality 4. Archer. Maneuver: If you can spot more minions than companions, exert Elf army to allow it to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x Athelas : Cost (1). [Dale] Possession. Bearer must be an Elf. Fellowship: Discard this possession to heal a companion and discard a Shadow condition.
Esgaroth Pack (10 cards) : (New culture Dale, Bard will also change his culture)
- 2x • The Master [Dale]
- 2x • Baïn, Son of Bard : Cost (2). [Dale] Ally. Man. Home 6. Strength 4, Vitality 3. Bard is strength +1. Maneuver: Exert Baïn to allow Bard to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x Iron-Forged Weapon : Cost (2). [Dale] Possession • Hand Weapon. Strength +2. Bearer must be a Man ally or a Dwarf companion. Skirmish: If bearer is not assigned to a skirmish, discard this possession to wound a minion.
- 2x Esgaroth Army : Cost (3). [Dale] Ally. Man. Home 6. Strength 7, Vitality 4. Archer. Maneuver : Spot Bard an exert Esgaroth Army to allow Esgaroth Army to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x • Emeralds of Girion : Cost (2) [Dwarven] Possession • Support Area. Fellowship: Exert an Elf to heal a Man. Regroup : Exert a Man and discard this possession to play an Elf from your draw deck or discard pile
Wizard Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Radagast
- 2x • Beorn
- 2x • Gwaihir
- 2x Wizard Staff : Cost (2). [Gandalf] Possession • Staff. Strength +1. Bearer must be a Wizard. At the start of each of your turns, you may exert bearer to take a spell from your draw deck into your hand.
- 2x The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell. Skirmish: Spot a Wizard to attach a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck to a Dwarf companion.
White Council Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Saruman : Cost (4). Ally. Wizard. Home 3. Strength 8, vitality 4. Gandalf is defender +1. Fellowship: Discard a Wizard to play Gandalf from your discard pile.
- 2x • Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 3. Strength 3, vitality 3. Gandalf is strength +1. Skirmish: Exert Galadriel twice and discard a card from hand to make a minion strength -X, where X is that card's twilight cost.
- 2x • Narya : Cost (0). Possession • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Gandalf. Response: If Gandalf is about to be discarded, exert him to prevent that.
- 2x Gathering of the three Great Rings : [Gandalf] Cost (3). Event. Spell. Skirmish : Make X minions strength -X until the regroup phase, where X is the number of the following characters you can spot : Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel.
- 2x Former Herald : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Maneuver: Spot Gandalf and exert an ally whose home is site 3. Until the regroup phase, that ally is strength +3 and participates in skirmishes.
Bilbo Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x Barrels : Cost (1). [Shire] Event. Regroup: Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to discard up to 2 minions. If the fellowship is at a river, make the move limit +1 for this turn.
- 2x Old Thrush : Cost (1). [Shire] Follower. Bird. Aid - exert Bilbo. Strength +1. Maneuver : Discard this follower to take in hand a free people card of bearer's culture from your draw deck or discard pile.
- 2x An Acorn from Beorn's house : Cost (1). [Shire] Possession. Bearer must be Bilbo. Regroup : Discard this possession to remove a doubt and discard a Shadow condition.
- 2x Spider's Plague : Cost (1). [Shire] Event. Maneuver: Exert Bilbo twice to add his strength to another companion until the regroup phase.
- 2x Skillful negociator : Cost (2) [Shire] Event. Maneuver: Spot an ally and exert Bilbo to allow this ally to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
Thank you a lot for your contribution, it was really helpful.
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You are welcome, my friend.
Those packs look great! The armies are a needed piece to set up a great Battle like this one. There are 3 brute "Strong Army Packs", and 4 smart "Subtle Plot Packs", great balance.
Bilbo's pack is awesome! Barrels rocks! Old Thrush rocks! Acorn is Brace of Coneys and more! Spider's Plage is Merry FtS' skill! Skillful Negotiator is Bilbo's version of OWMWF. Well-balanced powerful cards to give intelligence and versatility to the one and only Hobbit in this story. I would like to see Burglar's Contract in this pack, but it's a strong idea to have some Bilbo support in other packs (Thráin and Dáin at least).
I was designing an event like Spider's Plage but for skirmish phase:
The Courage of Hobbits: [Shire] Cost [2]. Event • Skirmish. If Bilbo is not assigned to skirmish, exert him twice to add his strength to another companion.
It was going to use a picture of Bilbo rushing towards Azog's bodyguard (and saving Thorin) at the Wooded Cliff...
I love the Dain Pack, now it has the feeling of a Host of Dwarven Veterans marching to war! I know I didn't say anything until now, but why does Dain Ironfoot has the same strength as his elder LOTR TCG counterpart? As he's younger he should be a little stronger: Twilight Cost [4], Strength 8, Damage +1, same vitality.
Mithril-Coat looks very powerful, preventing ugly surprises.
I'd make Battle Fury able to be used by Dwarven allies (by replacing "Make a Dwarf companion strength +3..." with "Make a Dwarf strength +3..."), as Dain and the Iron Hills Army will often need a little push against the big monsters under our development...
Thráin and his Pack seem great. Your version is very loyal to the book, and focuses on swift and subtle moves rather than a loud Iron Hills army. He's very different from my version (based on the movie character and plot), in which he reveals what he knows of Sauron's plans...
[3] •Thráin, Yearner [Dwarven]. Follower • Dwarf. Strength +2.
Aid - Add [2] and exert Gandalf.
When you transfer Thrain at site 5, you may heal bearer.
Maneuver: Exert bearer to reveal a Shadow player's hand.
"Thráin... Son of Thrór. My old friend!"
There are no Dwarven Axes in either Dain Pack nor Thrain Pack. But that can be solved by including 2x in the FP Events Pack (and changing its name to "FP Pack" or so, of course). Otherwise the Company will still be full of boxing dwarves, and great cards like Thror's Heirlooms, Bilbo Collector of Treasures, Thráin and Thranduil won't have their full potential unleashed...
In respect of Dale culture, that's a good decision as there are some cards that shouldn't mix their game dynamics, and those brave Men and Women deserve more than just being depicted as Gandhi's supporters. But then arises a little problem: A Wizard Is Never Late could play Bard or The Master, or any suitable Lakeman in the time of need, and now it's not possible (remember both Bain and Esgaroth Army depend to be useful on a single card with only one copy: Bard)...
I would change A Wizard Is Never Late a bit to solve this:
[1] A Wizard Is Never Late [Gandalf]. Event • Fellowship. Play a [Gandalf] companion or ally from your draw deck or discard pile (or spot Gandalf to play a Man or Elrond from your draw deck or discard pile).
A bit too long maybe...
Athelas in the Mirkwood Pack may clog your hand waiting to have an Elf in play. In my opinion it should be a Support area possession, requiring to spot an Elf in order to be used: "Spot an Elf and discard this possession to...". Or to exert an Elf instead if it ends up a bit overpowered.
Elf Army is an Archer, but the maneuver skill allows to participate only in skirmishes and not in archery fire. Same happens with Esgaroth Army. And I would change the name of Esgaroth Army to Esgaroth Volunteers or Lake-Town Volunteers (you won't find pictures of a Laketown trained Army anyway, just armed civilians). But the card texts are great!
That Galadriel looks very powerful. She might discard Smaug to overwhelm Smaug (and later play Smaug from discard with site 8 or Troll Campfire). Should she have a limit? "... Exert Galadriel twice and discard a card from hand to make a minion strength -X, where X is that card's twilight cost (limit -8? if that minion is not skirmishing Galadriel or a Wizard)"...
There are some little wording problems:
- Skillful Negotiator: "Spot an ally and exert Bilbo to allow that ally..."
- Thrór's Map: "Regroup: If the fellowship is at site 6 or lower..."
That's all by now. I would like to see a "Thorin Pack", with Dwarven weapons and the Oakenshield, the Mithril Coat (instead of having it in Dain's Pack) and some tales or fortifications...
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Yes, we can put the Bilbo's Contract in the Bilbo pack (more thematic) but we have to replace it by something else ?
I'd make Battle Fury able to be used by Dwarven allies (by replacing "Make a Dwarf companion strength +3..." with "Make a Dwarf strength +3..."), as Dain and the Iron Hills Army will often need a little push against the big monsters under our development...
The problem with Battle Fury "Make a Dwarf strength +3..." is that you can boost a [Dwarven] follower.
I will not change Battle Fury, it's more clear now than "Make a Dwarf companion or Dwarven ally strength +3."
Thráin and his Pack seem great. Your version is very loyal to the book, and focuses on swift and subtle moves rather than a loud Iron Hills army. He's very different from my version (based on the movie character and plot), in which he reveals what he knows of Sauron's plans...
[3] •Thráin, Yearner [Dwarven]. Follower • Dwarf. Strength +2.
Aid - Add [2] and exert Gandalf.
When you transfer Thrain at site 5, you may heal bearer.
Maneuver: Exert bearer to reveal a Shadow player's hand.
"Thráin... Son of Thrór. My old friend!"
I'm not a fan of looking at the opponent's hand. It allows easy double moves.
There are no Dwarven Axes in either Dain Pack nor Thrain Pack. But that can be solved by including 2x in the FP Events Pack (and changing its name to "FP Pack" or so, of course). Otherwise the Company will still be full of boxing dwarves, and great cards like Thror's Heirlooms, Bilbo Collector of Treasures, Thráin and Thranduil won't have their full potential unleashed...
That's all by now. I would like to see a "Thorin Pack", with Dwarven weapons and the Oakenshield, the Mithril Coat (instead of having it in Dain's Pack) and some tales or fortifications...
All [Dwarven] possessions in the current game are more artifacts than possessions (I haven't a High Definition templates for Artifact :().
Thranduil needs "treasure" possessions to fight and not only a simple Dwarven Axe.
Maybe we can a "treasure" keyword for some [Dwarven] possession ?
It's more coherent to have a fix pack (FP events pack) with only events (easier for the beginners).
Ok for a Thorin pack with these Axes. We can replace the Mithril Coat (and the Arkenstone ?) in the Dain's pack by some fortifications or put also some axes in this pack.
In respect of Dale culture, that's a good decision as there are some cards that shouldn't mix their game dynamics, and those brave Men and Women deserve more than just being depicted as Gandhi's supporters. But then arises a little problem: A Wizard Is Never Late could play Bard or The Master, or any suitable Lakeman in the time of need, and now it's not possible (remember both Bain and Esgaroth Army depend to be useful on a single card with only one copy: Bard)...
I would change A Wizard Is Never Late a bit to solve this:
[1] A Wizard Is Never Late [Gandalf]. Event • Fellowship. Play a [Gandalf] companion or ally from your draw deck or discard pile (or spot Gandalf to play a Man or Elrond from your draw deck or discard pile).
A bit too long maybe...
This new event allows to search a lot of different companions and allies:
A Wizard Is Never Late. Event • Fellowship. Play a companion or ally (except a Dwarf) from your draw deck or discard pile.
Athelas in the Mirkwood Pack may clog your hand waiting to have an Elf in play. In my opinion it should be a Support area possession, requiring to spot an Elf in order to be used: "Spot an Elf and discard this possession to...". Or to exert an Elf instead if it ends up a bit overpowered.
- Ok for the Athelas, as a support area possession.
- I also have to change the Elf Army and Esgaroth Volunteers.
- I will change the wording problem.
That Galadriel looks very powerful. She might discard Smaug to overwhelm Smaug (and later play Smaug from discard with site 8 or Troll Campfire). Should she have a limit? "... Exert Galadriel twice and discard a card from hand to make a minion strength -X, where X is that card's twilight cost (limit -8? if that minion is not skirimishing Galadriel or a Wizard)"...
Galadriel can't heal so it's only a one-shot ability. Or maybe more a power like Galadriel 6R ?
Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel is skirmishing this minion).
Thank you a lot for all your helpful ideas.
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The problem with Battle Fury "Make a Dwarf strength +3..." is that you can boost a [Dwarven] follower.
I will not change Battle Fury, it's more clear now than "Make a Dwarf companion or Dwarven ally strength +3."
What about "Make a Dwarf character strength +3..."? Or even shorter, "Make a [Dwarven] character strength +3..."
Followers aren't characters, thus "Free Peoples character" is a another term for "companion or ally". "Character" is the short term if the card means to play a card by the FP player (as FP player can't play Shadow cards, and the reciprocal); or if specifies a race or culture which belongs to only the FP side (Dwarf character, [Gondor] or [Gandalf] character...).
Anyway, I don't think you can really pump a follower, as they don't have 'strength' but 'strength bonus'. Decipher made no rule, and there was no problem as followers didn't have race (and aren't characters). By the way, Decipher's rules about followers are quite unclear. From the Hunters Starter Rulebook:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/follower
- "Each follower has the keyword “Aid” (see below) which you can use to transfer that follower to one of your companions." Then came Saruman, SoS (the only Shadow follower), which specifies in his aid cost (inside italized parenthesis) he must be transferred to minions.
- "Followers can’t bear other cards, including possessions or conditions." Then came Whisper in the Dark... "Bearer must be a follower". #-o
Given that lack of clear rules, my points here are 3:
1.- Race is a great addition to followers (see Smaug's twilight reduction), so don't ever think about removing it to solve small problems. Solve them with the remaining 2 points:
2.- To prevent confusion with characters and followers, a card meant to enhance a character of a given race (make a Dwarf strength +3) should specify the word character, ally or companion, to deny its confused use with followers of the same race.
3.- Followers specificating possible bearers ("Bearer must be X") shouldn't use the gereal rule of "only to companions".
All that is important to clarify if this game is ever meant to be played in GEMP (which would make me happy!).
I'm not a fan of looking at the opponent's hand. It allows easy double moves.
My version of Thráin is pretty costly. It requires to exert Gandalf and add [2] to transfer, and then exert bearer to reveal a hand. Nevermind, your version is much better and there's no room to unify them. :up:
But he was such a great fighter. Maybe your version should give strength +2.
All [Dwarven] possessions in the current game are more artifacts than possessions (I haven't a High Definition templates for Artifact :().
Thranduil needs "treasure" possessions to fight and not only a simple Dwarven Axe.
Maybe we can a "treasure" keyword for some [Dwarven] possession ?
It's more coherent to have a fix pack (FP events pack) with only events (easier for the beginners).
Ok for a Thorin pack with these Axes. We can replace the Mithril Coat (and the Arkenstone ?) in the Dain's pack by some fortifications.
Treasure unloaded keyword is the answer! Otherwise Thrór's Key or Thrór's Map might be discarded to make him fight, or things like Dwarven Axe and [Dwarven] fortifications.
Cards that should be a treasure, in absense of the Artifact templates:
- Mithril Coat
- Orcrist
- Sting
- Glamdring
- The Arkenstone
- Emeralds of Girion
- Narya
- The One Ring
Then Thranduil should specify [Dwarven] treasures.
Trolls and Smaug might be happy with that keyword ;). It will facilitate so much many cards for Smaug. Smaug might even have shadow support area treasure possessions, like Thór's Hoard or so, to cause or harvest doubts or wounds on Thorin... :up:
[?] •Thrór's Hoard [No Culture]
Possession • Support Area
Treasure. Each time you play Smaug, you exert him to exert Thorin.
At the end of each turn, if the fellowship didn't move in the regroup phase (and the move limit is more than 1) exert Thorin.
Ok for the "FP Events Pack" to remain as it is. Yes, the Thorin Pack should have The Arkenstone, Mithril Coat, Dwarven Axe, maybe the Oakenshield and 1 or 2 fortifications.
My idea of a Thorin Pack:
- 2x •Mithril Coat
- 2x Dwarven Axe
- 2x •The Arkenstone
- 2x •The Ancient Forges [Dwarven] fortification.
- 2x •Oakenshield, or Battle Fury. Or another fortification.
[3] •The Ancient Forges [Dwarven].
Possession • Support Area.
Fortification. At site 8, a Dwarf skirmishing bearer is damage +2, and strength +1 for each wounded Dwarf you can spot.
Skiimish: Exert 2 Dwarf companions and discard 2 cards from hand to transfer this condition to a minion.
[1] •Oakenshield [Dwarven]
Strength +1
Possession • Shield/Bracers
Bearer must be Thorin. Each minion skirmishing Thorin does not gain strength bonuses from weapons.
Skirmish: Play a skirmish event or exert Thorin to make him strength +1.
"...he hewed off with his axe a branch of an oak and held it in his left hand to ward off the strokes of his foes, or to wield as a club."
No archery protection at all. Just a close fighting shield... a very good one. Negates opponent's weapons like Shield of Boromir, while providing good offensive maneuverability with moderate benefits and costs.
The Dain Pack should have Roäc, not fortifications... this is my notion:
2x •Dain Ironfoot
2x Iron Hills Army
2x Thror's Heirlooms
2x •Roäc
2x Dwarven Spear, or Battle Fury
[1] •Roäc, Son of Carc [Dwarven]
Follower • Bird
Strength +1
Aid - Exert Thorin.
Maneuver: Discard Roäc to either play a [Dwarven] ally from your draw deck, or to allow a [Dwarven] ally to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
[1] Dwarven Spear [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Bearer must be a Dwarf character.
While at a battleground or skirmishing a mounted minion, bearer is damage +1.
For the picture, Bifur's boar spear should be enough...
That way, 3 Packs would provide much-needed weapons: Thorin's, Dain's and Esgaroth's.
This new event allows to search a lot of different companions and allies:
A Wizard Is Never Late. Event • Fellowship. Play a companion or ally (except a Dwarf) from your draw deck or discard pile.
I think it's well-directioned, but losses a bit the focus on Wizards. This is what I mean:
A Wizard Is Never Late. Event • Fellowship. Play a Wizard from your draw deck or discard pile, or spot a Wizard to play a non-Dwarf character from your draw deck or discard pile.
As said above, "Character" is a short term for "companion or ally" as far as refers to playing a card by the FP player.
- Ok for the Athelas, as a support area possession.
- I also have to change the Elf Army and Esgaroth Volunteers.
- I will change the wording problem.
:up: ;)
Galadriel can't heal so it's only a one-shot ability. Or maybe more a power like Galadriel 6R ?
Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel is skirmishing this minion).
Galadriel won't skirmish often, and in most cases will have only one vitality point to exert.
"(or -6 if Galadriel or a Wizard is skirmishing that minion)"
Thank you a lot for all your helpful ideas.
You are welcome my friend. It's a pleasure to work with you in this project.
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I propose this with all your suggestions. Tell me if this seems correct.
Next updates (probably in January)
There will be now 13 cards per booster pack instead of only 12 cards.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Rules.html (http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Rules.html)
There will be 8 cards in the Site pack and 20 cards in the FP events pack (2x each event). And each FP packs will have 10 cards. So for 4 players the Booster deck will have a total of cards: 156 cards=13x4x3 (4 players and 3 boosters packs per player)
- 2x Sites pack (2x8 cards).
- 2x different random Free Peoples packs (2x10 cards).
- 2x Free Peoples events Pack (2x20 cards).
- 1x Swarm pack (40 cards).
- 1x Beatdown pack (40 cards).
So we need two new sites. I want to make all sites in the Sites pack better for the Shadow player (except site 1), so during the draft session, sites will be more attractive with Watchful Orc. So I also propose to replace the Lake-Town site.
Site 6: Lake Town
Shadow number : 3
River. Sanctuary. The twilight cost of the first Orc played at Lake-Town each turn is -2.
Site 2: Trollshaw Forest
Shadow number : 3
Forest. At the start of the maneuver phase, each player may play a hand weapon from his or her draw deck.
Site 9: Ravenhill
Shadow number : 8
Mountain. Battleground. Maneuver: Remove your minion from the game to play a minion from your discard pile. Its twilight cost is -2.
In the main deck : Site 6: Esgaroth
Shadow number : 3
River. Sanctuary. At the start of the regroup phase, you may play a [Dale] or [Dwarven] ally from your draw deck.
In the main deck : Site 2: Trollshaw Forest -> Troll's Cave
Bard
Change culture for Dale.
A Wizard Is Never Late
Play a Wizard from your draw deck or discard pile, or spot a Wizard to play a non-[dwarven] character from your draw deck or discard pile.
Battle Fury
Make a Dwarf character strength +3 (or +4 if he bears a [Dwarven] follower).
Cards that should be a treasure or artifact (if I can get a High def templates):
- Mithril Coat
- Orcrist
- Sting
- Glamdring
- The Arkenstone
- Emeralds of Girion
- Narya
- The One Ring
Dain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Dain Ironfoot : Cost (3). Home 9. Strength 7, Vitality 3. Ally. Dwarf. Thorin is strength +1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may discard a [dwarven] follower to discard a minion (except Smaug).
- 2x Iron Hills Army : Cost (3). Ally. Dwarf. Home 9. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Maneuver : If you can spot more minions than companions, exert Iron Hils Army and discard a [dwarven] follower to make an opponent discard a minion.
- 2x • Roäc, Son of Carc : cost (1). [Dwarven] Follower. Bird. Strength +1. Aid - Exert Thorin. Maneuver: Discard Roäc to either play a [Dwarven] ally from your draw deck, or to allow a [Dwarven] ally to participate in skirimishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x Dwarven Spear : Cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession • Hand Weapon. Strength +2. Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character. While bearer is skirmishing a mounted minion, bearer is strength +1.
- 2x King Under the Mountain : [Dwarven] Cost (1). Event. Fellowship: Add a doubt to play a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck.
Thorin Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x Mithril Coat : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession • Armor. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each minion skirmishing Bilbo does not gain strength or damage bonuses from weapons. Response: If a skirmish event is played during a a skimish involving Bilbo, exert him to cancel that event.
- 2x Dwarven Axe : Cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession • Hand Weapon. Strength +2. Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character. While bearer is at a mountain site, he is damage +1.
- 2x • Arkenstone
- 2x • Great Barricade : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession • Support Area. Fortification. To play, exert a [Dwarven] companion. At sites 7 and 8, each minion skirmishing a Dwarf companion is strength -2.
- 2x • Oakenshield : Cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession • Bracers. Strength +1. Bearer must be Thorin. Each minion skirmishing Thorin does not gain strength bonuses from weapons. Response: If Thorin is about to take a wound, discard this possession to prevent that wound.
Thrain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Thrain : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Follower. Dwarf. Strength +1. Aid - Exert Gandalf and add (2). Response: If bearer wins a skirmish, you may play a [Dwarven] possession from your draw deck
- 2x • Thror's Map : cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. The Shadow's number of sites 7 and 8 is -2. Regroup: If the fellowship is at site 6 or lower, exert bearer and add (2) to discard a minion.
- 2x • Thror's Key : cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Fellowship: Exert a Dwarf companion to play the fellowship's next site if it is a mountain (replacing opponent's site if necessary).
- 2x • Burglar's Contract : Cost (1). [Shire] Possession. Strength +1. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each time Bilbo wins a skirmish, you may remove a doubt.
- 2x Thror's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play a [Dwarven] possession from your draw deck or discard pile.
Mirkwood Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Thranduil : Cost (4). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 9, Vitality 4. Maneuver: Exert Thorin twice or discard a [Dwarven] Treasure possession to allow Thranduil to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x • Tauriel : Cost (2). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Archer. Maneuver: Exert Tauriel to return an Orc with strength 7 or less to its owner's hand.
- 2x • Legolas : Cost (2). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Archer. Archery: Spot an Orc and exert Legolas to make the fellowhip archery total +1.
- 2x Elf Army : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 5. Strength 7, Vitality 4. Archer. Maneuver: If you can spot more minions than companions, exert Elf army to allow it to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x Athelas : Cost (1). [Dale] Possession • Support Area. Fellowship: Spot an Elf and discard this possession to heal a companion and discard a Shadow condition.
Esgaroth Pack (10 cards) : (New culture Dale, Bard will also change his culture)
- 2x • The Master [Dale]
- 2x • Baïn, Son of Bard : Cost (2). [Dale] Ally. Man. Home 6. Strength 4, Vitality 3. Bard is strength +1. Maneuver: Exert Baïn to allow Bard to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x Iron-Forged Weapon : Cost (2). [Dale] Possession • Hand Weapon. Strength +2. Bearer must be a Man ally or a Dwarf companion. Skirmish: If bearer is not assigned to a skirmish, discard this possession to wound a minion.
- 2x Esgaroth Volunteers : Cost (3). [Dale] Ally. Man. Home 6. Strength 7, Vitality 4. Archer. Maneuver : Spot Bard an exert Esgaroth Army to allow Esgaroth Army to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
- 2x • Emeralds of Girion : Cost (2) [Dwarven] Possession • Support Area. Fellowship: Exert an Elf to heal a Man. Regroup : Exert a Man and discard this possession to play an Elf from your draw deck or discard pile
Wizard Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Radagast
- 2x • Beorn
- 2x • Gwaihir
- 2x Wizard Staff : Cost (2). [Gandalf] Possession • Staff. Strength +1. Bearer must be a Wizard. At the start of each of your turns, you may exert bearer to take a spell from your draw deck into your hand.
- 2x The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell. Skirmish: Spot a Wizard to attach a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck to a Dwarf companion.
White Council Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Saruman : Cost (4). Ally. Wizard. Home 3. Strength 8, vitality 4. Gandalf is defender +1. Fellowship: Discard a Wizard to play Gandalf from your discard pile.
- 2x • Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 3. Strength 3, vitality 3. Gandalf is strength +1. Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel or a Wizard is skirmishing that minion).
- 2x • Narya : Cost (0). Possession • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Gandalf. Response: If Gandalf is about to be discarded, exert him to prevent that.
- 2x Gathering of the three Great Rings : [Gandalf] Cost (3). Event. Spell. Skirmish : Make X minions strength -X until the regroup phase, where X is the number of the following characters you can spot : Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel.
- 2x Former Herald : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Maneuver: Spot Gandalf and exert an ally whose home is site 3. Until the regroup phase, that ally is strength +3 and participates in skirmishes.
Bilbo Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x Old Thrush : Cost (1). [Shire] Follower. Bird. Aid - exert Bilbo. Strength +1. Maneuver: Discard this follower to take in hand a Free Peoples card of bearer's culture from your draw deck or discard pile.
- 2x Dwarven Pony : Cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession • Mount. Skirmish: Add a doubt and exert Bilbo to add his strength to another companion (limit once per skirmish).
- 2x An Acorn from Beorn's house : Cost (1). [Shire] Possession. Bearer must be Bilbo. Regroup: Discard this possession to remove a doubt and discard a Shadow condition.
- 2x Barrels : Cost (1). [Shire] Event. Regroup: Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to discard up to 2 minions (except Smaug) and draw 3 cards. If the fellowship is at a river, make the move limit +1 for this turn.
- 2x Skillful negociator : Cost (2) [Shire] Event. Maneuver: Spot an ally and exert Bilbo to allow that ally to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
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You can also see the New Bard and The Master with the new Dale template.
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FAdd%2FDale-1.png&hash=e169c803acea44892c76c0fb5aa42b5d7e58c706) (https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FAdd%2FNew_The_Master.png&hash=4290766fef6761de32ce3cdf2558f9bf71973bbd) (https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FAdd%2FNew_Bard.png&hash=a945fac60414baf11068efda21ccddab8405a048)
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There will be now 13 cards per booster pack instead of only 12 cards.
13 cards per booster... a Company of 13 dwarves. Great flavour addition!
I want to make all sites in the Sites pack better for the Shadow player (except site 1), so during the draft session, sites will be more attractive with Watchful Orc. So I also propose to replace the Lake-Town site.
Well thought! Watchful Orc will turn the sitepath very important, and vs. Thrór's Key there will be a great struggle to get the best from sites. Those changes to sites seem ok, as the fellowship is quite stronger than in FOTR and the shadow player will need to strike hard and soon.
So we need two new sites.
Actually we need 3 new sites (as Bilbo's Kitchen gets withdrawn from the 6-cards booster): 2, 8 and 9. Booster site for 9 is Ravenhill, and you mentioned Troll's Cave as the fixed site. Then 2 questions remain...
1. What does Troll's Cave do? It's a new site and you didn't post its gametext.
If it remains open, all I know is it should be both a forest and an underground; might instead be Great East Road (forest, plains), with a different text than the one previously proposed (Maneuver: Play Burglar's Contract from draw deck).
2. Will The Forges of Erebor be the booster site 8? That site is meant to help both sides: heals the fellowship while adds enormous twilight (and plays Smaug). It would be like Trollshaw Forest, except with more fire and wrath...
Besides that, I want to propose a new site 4, because Great Goblin's Cavern doesn't really convince: if the FP player has 6 companions, only 2 archery wounds will shot Gandalf, who will get discarded in next move. So here it is:
Site 4: Front Porch
Shadow Number: 4
Mountain. Underground. Shadow: Play an Orc or a weapon to draw a card.
Swarm is the goal here. And here's another idea:
Site 4: Wooded Steep Cliff
Shadow Number 3
Mountain. Forest. Each Orc or Warg minion at Wooded Steep Cliff is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.
Another option may be to lower the companion requirement for Great Goblin's Cavern to 4, just as Anduin Banks.
Cards that should be a treasure or artifact (if I can get a High def templates):
Artifact and Treasure shouldn't be exactly the same: if Gandalf's Staff is included (and you get the missing templates), it will be an example of a non-treasure artifact. Hoards (Thror's, Smaug's...) should be the opposite: treasure possessions.
Thranduil should specify [Dwarven] treasures, no matter if it is a possession or an artifact.
Dain Pack (10 cards) :
I love the way Thror's Heirlooms and King Under the Mountain got interchanged, now each can support much better the dynamics of the pack.
King Under the Mountain can play Roäc, then Roäc play an ally; cost: [2], a doubt and an exertion on Thorin. Then replay Roäc next turn with To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, or with Balin + King Under the Mountain again! :up:
The Dwarven Spear looks good, but only +1 base strength seems too little for its cost. Either should cost (0), or should give +2 base strength, +1 when facing a mounted minion. Rememeber it is dwarven smithcraft.
Thorin Pack (10 cards) :
I like the protection the Oaken-Shield gives, but it lacks the Shield part. It should deny the strength of enemies' weapons, just like Shield of Boromir, or else will be a mere Dwarven Bracer. And should be both shield and bracers, like Elven Armaments. Other than that, :up:.
[1] •Oakenshield [Dwarven]
Possession • Shield/Bracers.
Strength +1.
Bearer must be Thorin. Minions skirmishing Thorin don't gain strength bonuses from weapons.
Response: If Thorin is about to take a wound, discard this possession to prevent that wound.
"... he hewed off with his axe a branch of an oak and held it in his left hand to ward off the strokes of his foes."
The inclusion of The Huge Door of Erebor is a good idea, but a very different idea than the Ancient Forges. The Forges were meant as a trap to ambush and kill the beast, while the Huge Door is a barricade for protection of the Company alone. And I'd change its name to Great Barricade or so:
[2] •Great Barricade [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area.
Fortification. To play, exert 2 [Dwarven] companions.
At sites 7 and 8, each minion is fierce and no more than one minion may be assigned to skirmish a companion.
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] fortification to draw a card.
One-to-one skirmishes, and each remaining minion waiting for its turn to get into the fight (fierce). Like Caras Galadhon but for only companions, leaving participating allies prone to be overwhelmed. At site 9 each fortification is destroyed or abandoned for a suicidal dive into the enemy host, so shouldn't be effective at site 9.
Take into account fortifications must specify site numbers and not site keywords like mountain. There's a chance that some other sites than 7 or 8 will be mountains, like Ravenhill at 9 or the Wooded Steep Cliff at 4.
- 2x • Emeralds of Girion : Cost (2) [Dwarven] Possession • Support Area. Fellowship: Exert an Elf to heal a Man. Regroup: Exert a Man and discard this possession to play an Elf from your draw deck or discard pile.
The Emeralds of Girion can turn Elrond into a healing machine of Dale men. And those men would support the company by exerting themselves. The axis of that support would be Bard (+ Bain, + Esgaroth Volunteers) and the Master (cycling and being healed by Elrond and Bard). :up:
- 2x Wizard Staff : Cost (2). [Gandalf] Possession • Staff. Strength +1. Bearer must be a Wizard. At the start of each of your turns, you may exert bearer to take a spell from your draw deck into your hand.
Balin can recycle spells back into the draw deck.
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The Dale symbol looks good! I would like to see a different color for the template, as Gondor means "Land of Stone" and that's exactly what the Gondor templates evoque.
Dale is portrayed as a Renaissance city, with much more markets and goods, with living colors. Esgaroth is darker and murkier, but even so it looks warmer than the cold stones and the grim people of Minas Tirith, with the fire of torches lighting everything in the dark hours.
It should have a warmer color in my opinion, dim yellow or pale dim orange. Like the torches behind Bard. Besides that, it looks great.
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I will keep a site 1 in the Site pack. I need 8 different sites for 8 different number. The site 8, as the site 5 in FOTR, seems untouchable. I want general abilities for most of them, so they will be very attractive.
I'm not sure starting the Shadow archery at 4 companions is a good idea, Anduin Banks is at the end of the site path not Goblin's Cavern. If there isn't many companions, the site 5 could be really hard.
For Treasure, it depends on a good Artifact blank template :(.
I change in the previous post the cards with your ideas, except for the Great Barricade I change a bit.
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Here is a new Dale template.
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FAdd%2FNew_The_Master2.png&hash=818c44570f1cca5b9e4e0bdf7508d9b9dc1e94f4)
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As for the template, it looks too golden. That's great with The Master's greed, but with the rest it should be darker. You might leave the Master as it is, but try to normalize the color of the twilight circle to give it a more realistic look. Even the grey twilight circle of the Gondor template might look great, though I'd prefer something brown, more as wood.
Try to make the template look less bright and lightful; somewhat gloomy. And a wood-like brown circle for the twilight, evoking the wooden houses and boats.
I posted "pale orange", and then realizad it was totally wrong. "Dim orange" would be much better.
I will keep a site 1 in the Site pack. I need 8 different sites for 8 different number. The site 8, as the site 5 in FOTR, seems untouchable. I want general abilities for most of them, so they will be very attractive.
I'm not sure starting the Shadow archery at 4 companions is a good idea, Anduin Banks is at the end of the site path not Goblin's Cavern. If there isn't many companions, the site 5 could be really hard.
That's ok. So the sites to add are Sites 1 and 2, and there is already a good Site 1 if you don't want to change it. Which leaves Site 2 to be defined... Homework!
About the Cavern, there's still no archery Shadow so 2 or 4 arrows in the whole game shouldn't cause too much effect. Moreover if 3 of 4 versions of Gandalf will take the arrows at 4 and get discarded at 5. Try to give a chance to Front Porch or Wooded Steep Cliff...
For Treasure, it depends on a good Artifact blank template :(.
I change in the previous post the cards with your ideas, except for the Great Barricade I change a bit.
It's a shame there is no high definition artifact templates...
I like the change to the Great Barricade, even being so different to those 2 previous versions.
- 2x • Great Barricade : Cost (2). Dwarven Possession • Support Area. Fortification. To play, exert a Dwarven companion. At sites 7 and 8, each minion skirmishing a Dwarf character is strength -2.
Anyway, it should be "skirmishing a Dwarf companion" instead of a Dwarf character, as the Dwarf allies were outside the barricade. And I'd add that fellowship special ability to discard a fortification to just draw a card. More for the flavor of destroying the barricade and running towards the enemy, than for the awesome usefulness of... drawing a card.
Great Barricade can reduce Smaug's strength from 17 to 15, so probably there will be some strength-adding tricks for him in his 10-cards part in the Beatdown Pack. Something like this:
•Smaug's Wealth
Possession • Support Area
Treasure. While you can spot X treasures and Smaug's vitality is X or more, Smaug is strength +X.
If Smaug gets killed, the Free Peoples player may play a [Dwarven] possession from his or her draw deck.
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I know this will sound crazy, but what if each Pack has 1x a site made to match the theme?
Archery shadows would have a site to help the archery, like Great Goblin's Cavern or an adapted copy of Brown Lands. And Warg minions would have the Wooded Steep Cliff. Thráin Pack something like a Site 7 Entrance of Erebor...
It's a crazy idea, I know. Will have to pass through refinement to be useful.
EDIT: For each 2 players, there are 2 random chosen Packs: 1 for FP (10 cards) and 1 for Shadow (40 cards). For each 2 players, the total drafted cards is 78. It may be rounded to 80 by including one fixed Site card per Pack...
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I think I will let the Dale template with the initial template, it's simpler and much more bright and lightful.
The Great Cavern is also useful for the next Shadow archery. The site 4 must benefit more to the Beatdown Shadows (Trolls and Wargs) than the Swarm Shadows, the site 4 is often the first real Swarm site (for Moria minions).
I need a total number of cards divisible by 6 (2 players and 3 boosters each). I think I will let like this unless you have another proposition ?
I upload all the next updates on the first post ^^.
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I also prefer Dale template to be Purple like Gondor. The Golden one is too similar to Wizard. Another option would be to make it Silver color.
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I think I will let the Dale template with the initial template, it's simpler and much more bright and lightful.
I also prefer Dale template to be Purple like Gondor. The Golden one is too similar to Wizard. Another option would be to make it Silver color.
Watching again the DoS film, Cw0rk's idea is well-aimed IMO. The Lake-town looks somewhat like silver light during the day, a blurry middle point between light blue and grey. Silver gets close. Actually that would be close to the Gondor template, but it would be better it it were a bit darker, bluer and blurrier.
Anyway, I'd love to see a small bit of golden in The Master, the twilight circle preferably. Only in his card, to reflect his greed for gold and his non-selfless intentions.
The Great Cavern is also useful for the next Shadow archery. The site 4 must benefit more to the Beatdown Shadows (Trolls and Wargs) than the Swarm Shadows, the site 4 is often the first real Swarm site (for Moria minions).
I don't think 2 or 4 wounds will help too much a Beatdown shadow if the FP player chooses who will get them. Most of the times will be Gandalf, who will be discarded, and Bilbo if there's a remainder. But I agree with the goal of helping a Beatdown shadow.
Trolls are unique, and Wargriders need mounts.
Site 4: Wooded Steep Cliff
Shadow Number 3
Mountain. Forest. Each unique or mounted minion is strength +2 and twilight cost -1.
Azog would be strength 11 and twilight cost [3], trolls would be stregth 13 and cost [4]. Non-unique mounted minions would get only +2 strength. Even Gollum and The Great Goblin would be boosted.
I need a total number of cards divisible by 6 (2 players and 3 boosters each). I think I will let like this unless you have another proposition ?
You want to make the total drafted cards be a multiple of 6, to leave no remainig card after each player has drafted his/her 3 boosters. But if there are 2 random boosters per each 2 players, and each booster has 1 site card as addition, then there would be 1 remaining card per player after 3 boosters are drafted.
That's easy to solve: after 3 boosters are drafted, with a random choice a player is set as first and then he/she draws a card. Then the rest do the same, clockwise. 0 cards will remain. That procedure would take a very small amount of time, something like 10 or 15 seconds.
The random choice may be as simple as revealing a random drafted card per player and comparing twilight costs.
We still have to define the text of Site 2 in the Main Deck. And Main Deck sites should be more friendly to the FP side.
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I tried this template from the Rohan template. I have the Gondor template in High-def, but not the Rohan template, the quality is worse.
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FAdd%2FDale-2.png&hash=b25a5fc2c368f9aa11cd84559b40d10ac82b306a)
I'm not a big fan of a random distribution at the end of the draft, I prefer the quantities from the current Booster deck.
The site 2 in the main deck will be the same as now, only the title will change. I will see if I change the site 4.
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I don't like the Rohan template for the Dale culture. Though they are relatives to the Dale men, Rohan's culture is too distinctive in each possible aspect, and orbits around horses and war instead of around the civil life.
The Gondor one is much closer. If I had a tad of experience and knowledge about photoshop, I'd make the Gondor template a bit bluer and grayer. But as it is, is the best option and not really too far.
But thinking a bit more, if you cut from the Rohan template the title bar, subtitle bar and the middle one in which goes the card type, and paste those in the Gondor template, it might be quite closer to what I mean above.
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In respect of the update of the First Post:
In the main deck : Site 2: Trollshaw Forest -> Troll's Cave
The booster deck site should be something like this, to power up the Shadow:
Site 2
Shadow Number: 3
Forest. Shadow: Play a Troll whose site number is 2 from your draw deck.
Such a site should never be in the main deck as is meant to reinforce the Shadow only; I'd leave the other site in the main deck as it helps the FP side and may be used too by both Swarm Pack (Goblins) and Beatdown Pack (Trolls).
You will still need to have an Orc to discard to fulfill the Troll's intrinsic requirement. But if the FP player gives enough twilight and the Shadow player has 3 Orcs in hand, then Tom, Bert and William can join the party from the start. "Trollshaw Forest" is a better name for this one I'm proposing, as that's the place where the Company found the Trolls... hmmm, where the Trolls found the Company actually; "Troll's Cave" is where they found the swords and gold.
These cards will be artifacts:
- Orcrist
- Sting
- Glamdring
- The One Ring
Does that mean you did find some templates for Artifacts? Glamdring and Sting should have always been artifacts in LOTR TCG. Great!
If you didn't find any High-Def templates, then you might try some wild idea like this one: erase good part of the normal template and use most part of the card for the picture alone, as Smaug or the One Ring in LOTR TCG. Just keep the attributes (and bonuses), the middle bar, the culture symbol and maybe the twilight circle/diamond. You can preserve those perpendicular bars that branch out from that culture symbol but make them disappear at the middle. If I had some experience with Photoshop, I'd make them by myself...
- 2x • Ring of Thror : Cost 0. Dwarven Artifact • Ring. Strength +1. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Thorin. Maneuver: Take a Dwarven event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
Bravo! That Ring was actually the Ring of Fury... Might be titled/subtitled "Ring of Fury, Thrór's Ring" or "Ring of Thrór, the Ring of Fury"...
Good text anyway. Balin can recycle it (epicness)! Every Dwarf companion you made is actually a Heir of Durin's Line, each in his own degree. Even Ori and Dori are, but here are followers. One of the goals of Balin's Colony in Moria was to find Thrór's Ring... My point is, maybe it should be borne by "a Dwarf Companion". Just maybe. Dwalin and Kili can get good profit of it.
AND it should give Damage +1. I know, I know, I'M ONLY A DIE-HARD DAMAGE BONUS FAN and my ideas about damage bonuses can be dismissed due to that illness of mine. But if there was only a single justified case to give a Dwarf a damage bonus, that case would be a Ring of Power.
- 2x • Great Barricade : Cost (2). Dwarven Possession • Support Area. Fortification. To play, exert a Dwarven companion. If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, discard this possession. At sites 7 and 8, each minion skirmishing a Dwarf companion is strength -2.
I like the double move restriction, but that way can clog the hand (like the previous version of Athelas). I'd change it with "If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, discard this possession or exert a [Dwarven] companion." As it doesn't work at site 9, only a player taking advantage of exertions wouldn't discard it at 9.
- 2x The Eagles Are Coming... and attach it to a Dwarf companion (without paying the aid cost).
Nice, useful clarification.
Some wording considerations...
- • The Arkenstone : "Take a card stacker here into your hand."
- Dwarven Spear : "While bearer is skirmishing a mounted minion, bearer is strength +1." This card is not inadequately written, but is a bit cacophonous with that redundancy... It's enough with either "While bearer is skirmishing a mounted minion, he is strength +1" or "While skirmishing a mounted minion, bearer is strength +1." The latter is my favourite, as is shorter.
- • Thrain : "Response: If bearer wins a skirmish, you may play a Dwarven possession from your draw deck." As a response action, you may use it infinitely as far as you met the requirement. It should say "Each time bearer wins a skirmish...".
- Old Thrush : "Discard this follower to take into hand...".
Given there are 3 different Rings now, Smaug's Regroup ability might say "to discard a Free Peoples card (except a companion, Bard or a Ring)". 2 of them hide by themselves (Narya hid itself and The One Ring hid the whole bearer), while the Ring of Thrór survived in dwarf domain after the Fall of Erebor...
That's all by now. Great improvements you have made!
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The Smaug (Non) Culture is a great bunch of great ideas! But I believe most need some refinement to shine with their full potential. Hope this helps...
New Shadows
Shadow Smaug (15 cards): it will finally be 15 cards in this pack and 10 cards in the Nazguls pack.
If the Nazgul Pack has only 10 cards and every Nazgul is added, only 1 card slot will remain for either another copy of the Witchie or 1 support card. 1 copy of The Morgul Blade ("made for the Witch-King-of-Ang-marr... and buried with him!") and... oh, that's all!
I believe The Necromancer [Sauron] Pack should have 10 cards, as that culture has only 1 minion and will share dynamics with the Nazgul one. Unless we include [Sauron] Orcs or [Wraith] Orcs in it, representing that Legion of Dol Guldur seen by the captive Gandalf...
- 2x The Arkenstone, King's Jewel : Cost (2). [No Culture] Possession. Strength +2 Vitality +2. To play spot Smaug, if you can spot The Arkenstone, discard it. Plays on Bilbo. Each companion and ally of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2. Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to this character."
I'm really glad you are using that idea! However, I've been thinking about it and found there's a little detail that should be corrected if there is enough room:
"Each companion and ally of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2" should exclude "Gandalf and Associates" from the strenght reduction, for 2 reasons: Saruman and Radagast weren't present in the strife, and Gandalf was invulnerable to dissention (being an unifying factor instead). Otherwise the Necromancer & the Nazgul will sweep them too easily...
"Each companion and ally of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])."
I would prefer a [Gandalf] culture differentiation than one based on the Wizard race. Due to the possiblility of a future inclusion of Beorn and/or Gwaihir as allies...
As the Shadow Arkenstone is an possession instead of an artifact, the FP player is able to discard it with Nori. Otherwise he will need to change his text to "...to discard a possession or an artifact".
- 4x Smaug's Awakening : Cost (3). [No culture] Condition • Support area. To play, discard your hand. Each site on the adventure path is a mountain. Shadow: Play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile, he is strength -3 until the regroup phase.
I'd change it a bit: "Play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile, he is strength -3 and damage -1 until the regroup phase." If he remains with damage +2, be strength 14 or not he will kill the whole Company one by one...
- 3x Fury of the Dragon : Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. To play, discard 2 Orcs. While the fellowship is at site 6, each time Smaug wins a skirmish, wound a [Dale] ally twice. Maneuver: If the total number of minions you can spot is greater than the number of doubts you can spot, discard a minion from play to add a doubt
"While the fellowship is at site 6" just can't happen often. There are other ways of depicting his assault on Late-town...
(0) Fury of the Dragon [No culture]
Condition • Support area.
To play, discard 2 Orcs. While you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies can participate in archery fire and skirmishes.
Each time Smaug kills an ally in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion twice.
Maneuver: If you can spot more minions than doubts, discard a minion to add a doubt.
"What have we done?"
The maneuver ability is just amazing!
- 3x Twisted Gold of Dragon : Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. To play, discard 2 Orcs. Shadow: Discard a [Dwarven] artifact to make each site on the adventure path a mountain until the end of the turn. Maneuver: Play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile to add a doubt.
This card can, after being played, without any cost discard each and every [Dwarven] artifact. You can repeat the Shadow action until there aren't artifacts. That shouldn't be a cost, but the effect of a heavy cost. Something like "Shadow: Remove 3 doubts to discard a [Dwarven] artifact and make each site on the adventure path gain mountain until the end of the turn." 3 doubts isn't an unreachable goal, moreover if it's to discard an artifact (who said Orcrist?) and then play Smaug.
The title might be changed to "Accursed Gold". "Thror's love of gold had grown too fierce... for dragons covet gold with a dark and fierce desire."
- 3x Dissension : Cost (3). [No culture] Event - Skirmish. You may exert Smaug twice to play this event from your discard pile. Spot X doubts to make a Dwarf companion strength -X. While you can spot The Arkenstone, this event's twilight cost is -2.
3x is a good number. :up: But if you reduce the number of any other Smaug card, raise this to 4x. It's the only pump in the whole non-Culture.
There is a worrisome lack of twilight reduction for Smaug here. With a base of 18, minus 1 for almost each FP character won't be enough most of the times to make him fight more often... There is plenty of non-unique conditions here. Choose some of them with enough room and add something like "Smaug's twilight cost is -2" or "Smaug's twilight cost is -1 for each X you can spot"... artifact, dwarf, doubt.
And last but not LEAST: if Smaug can appear in previous sites than 7 and even reappear, he should say "If Smaug is killed at site 7 or higher, remove him from the game". There's no room unfortunately :(
This is a great bunch of great ideas, as I said before. Keep on working them!
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- 2x • Ring of Fury: Cost (2). Sauron Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Skirmish: Exert Sauron to make a minion strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf).
What do you mean with Ring of Fury? Hmmmm. Is that the Ring of Durin III, forefather of Thrór?
Since some years I have a theory about the Ring of Thrór: I think Sauron utterly needed the last and strongest of the Dwarven Rings in his plans to regain enough strength and return to Mordor, to assemble his blitzkrieg against the Free Peoples. And he knew Durin's Heir bore it and preserved it in his Line when felt his vital strength was going to its end, like Thrór did with Thráin before taking a look at the Halls of Moria.
So Thráin was deliberately not executed by Sauron when captured, but instead imprisoned so he had some remainig years of life in his destiny (9 years) and hadn't any feel of a near end which would make him give the Ring to Thorin. Imprisoned and tortured, he was forced to surrender his Ring. The Ring was Sauron's only objective there, not even the warrior King of Durin's Folk himself. Nor anything else he bore...
That would be another incredible turn of events in Tolkien's writings, small but decisive (similar to the one when Saruman tricks Radagast to attract Gandalf, but Radagast's good intentions and deceived mind sent Gwaihir to communicate both). The survival of Thráin in Dol Guldur allowed Gandalf to reach him in the nick of time, to get a couple of things worthless to Sauron's mind: a Map and a Key. Hope born of death: Eucatastrophe.
Well, theories aside... Is that Ring of Fury the Ring of Thrór? If the answer is yes, then just like the Arkenstone, the Ring should have the same title for the 2 opposite versions along with a mechanism of discarding the FP one. A mechansim with a cost, because unlike the Arkenstone which by nature (given the circumstances) corrupted and caused dissension, the Ring of Thrór must change hands before Sauron can use it (there's a scene in the Extended Edition of DoS about that Ring).
- 2x • Ring of Thror : Cost 0. Dwarven Artifact • Ring. Strength +1. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is damage +1. Maneuver: Take a Dwarven event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
Damage +1. Any dwarf companion. :up:
Now looks as the Ring of Guile, but with a vitality bonus would be too much in the hands of Dwalin or Kili. Anyway, I'd love to see a little differentiation with the [Dwarven] Rings of Reflections and the Ring of Artifice 17R4. There were 5 [Dwarven] Rings made by Decipher, this might be a 6th ring instead of another version of a previous one:
(0) • Ring of Thrór [Dwarven]
Artifact • Ring
Strength +1
Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. While you can spot X doubts and X [Dwarven] artifacts, bearer is damage +X (limit +3).
Maneuver: Take a [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
Then the [Sauron] version should be the named Ring of Thrór too, but with a subtitle like "Last of the Seven Rings"...
The same maneuver ability than Ring of Guile, and a potential for more damage. A good reason to play with fire and keep some dangerous doubts on Bilbo...
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I read this thread which could be helpful for the Ring of Thror (or Durin ?) :).
http://thorinoakenshield.net/2013/12/01/ (http://thorinoakenshield.net/2013/12/01/)
This new Ring of Thror seems a bit complicated for the players. But maybe only a +1 vitality bonus like Sauron's Ring ? And a minor ability ?
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Very nice reading, my fellow. Really thank you! =D>
My theory is only a bit different. It's stated there that Sauron recovered the first 2 by force (along with the resistance to corruption and surrender), so he could kill Thráin and take back the Ring. The point here is destiny: if Thráin was near to his death, he would have felt that and the Ring would have been preserved. Sauron knew that and planned to not kill him, in order to capture a Ringbearer instead of just a doomed king... Thus Sauron tricked Thráin's heart by playing with destiny.
To make the Ring less complicated, might give vitality +1 and damage +1, without strength addition and the complicated calculation. And a small skirmish ability:
(0) • Ring of Thrór [Dwarven]
Artifact • Ring
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is damage +1.
Skirmish: Play a [Dwarven] event or exert bearer to make him strength +1.
Gives vitality, which is useful for the defending skills of Dwalin and Kili. And gives damage and possible strength, which is useful for killing minions. But requires vitality in both cases, so those uses aren't compatible. Glóin might use it very well.
That fighting ability is indeed the one I want to give to the Dwarven Shield (besides "The minion archery total is -1"), if there is going to be a shield to counter Shadow archery. Then might be instead another skill. A 'berserker' skill representing survival and toughness: "For each wound on bearer, he is strength +1", powerful but risky. Or a healing skill: "Each time bearer kills a minion in a skirmish, you may heal bearer"... The berserker one is my favourite here.
It must be present in both sides: a [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór, and a [Sauron] Ring of Thrór. The [Sauron] version might allow him to skirmish, more or less like the combo of Saruman's Staff + Servant of the Eye. I still have a good bunch of things to think about the Sauron and Nazgul Shadows...
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Ok I changed a bit the [Dwarf] Ring of Thror. Ok, tell me if you have some ideas on the [Wraith] and [Sauron] packs.
Most of the cards is fixed now, I think we have all the components of the movies and the book, no?
We have to do then the Swarm pack for Bolg and Azog.
My biggest problem is to find good pictures from the Battle of the Five Armies, the DVD will be in th store only in April. Hard to find a good quality picture of the Mithril Coat, Dain, ....
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The Sauron and Nazgul Packs look good, but there are some things that don't seem to fit... For example, Sauron turns every Orc fierce but the strongest Orc available is just an unarmed 8 strenght guy who can't rival Thorin or Dwalin. Sauron can assign a minion to Bilbo... Nazgul are coting too much given their new Site Number of 5, some big ones like the Witchie and Attea should cost -2, while the smaller ones should cost -1 and be strength +1...
I'm convinced that key [Wraith] and [Sauron] minions in those packs should allow the Wise to fight them (and some Smaug cards do the same with Dale men), and give a punish or greater threat to the FP player in case a dwarf fights them. "Wizard and Elf allies may partificapte in skirmishes". Or "Wise allies may participate in skirmishes", and give the new "Wise" keyword to The White Council...
I'm basing that thought on this part of the book:
"We have long ago paid the Goblins of Moria," said Thorin; "we must give a thought to the Necromancer."
"Don't be absurd! He is an Enemy far beyond the powers of all the Dwarves put together, if they could all be collected again from the four corners of the world. The one thing your father wished was for his son to read the Map and use the Key. The Dragon and the Mountain are more than big enough tasks for you!"
Gandalf knew Thorin was in grave danger when he travelled across the Mirkwood, and the assault of the White Council on Dol Guldur was indeed a plan weaved by him to (amongst other things) retreat Sauron's presence from Thorin's path. Gandalf didn't want Thorin to fight "an Enemy far beyond the powers of all the Dwarves put together", and the mere presence of The Necromancer in Dol Guldur was enough to attract The Wise (even Saruman in the books)...
But before talking in greater detail about the cards in Sauron and Nazgul Subpacks, there are some pending issues...
In the main deck : Site 2: Trollshaw Forest -> Troll's Cave
Shadow number : 3
Forest. Underground. At the start of your fellowship phase, you may play a hand weapon from your draw deck.
Site 4: Great Goblin's Cavern -> Wooded Steep Cliff
Shadow Number 3
Mountain. Forest. When the fellowship moves to Wooded Steep Cliff, Thorin or 2 other companions must exert.
Those look good! Wooded Steep Cliff is designed here in the ways of Decipher's FOTR and TTT sites 4, and will be quite powerful when playing wargriders. Threatening Warg I mean.
Watchful Orc
When you play this minion, you may replace the fellowship's current site with a site from your adventure deck. Shadow: Exert this minion twice to make each site on the adventure path gains battleground, mountain, forest or underground until the end of the turn.
That's a very long text. Hope it fits inside the card room, because looks great! Anyway, is there any card that uses the 'battlground' keyword? In case not, just remove it. I believe even plains might give some benefits to wargs/wargriders and even besiegers, but alike battlerground still there isn't any card.
In case it's overpowered, or the text doesn't fit the card space, I'd leave it this way: "Shadow: Exert this minion twice to either replace the fellowship's current site with your site of the same number, or make each site on the adventure path gain mountain, forest or underground until the end of the turn." Believe it or not, that's shorter...
Goblin Footman
When you play this minion, you may play a possession or artifact from your discard pile on your minion.
To play the Ring of Thrór on Sauron, great! And even play Troll Knife from discard, that was an abandoned aspect in the Troll culture. :up:
Smaug
Cost: 18
Regroup: Exert Smaug and discard another minion to discard a Free Peoples card (except a companion, Bard or a Ring).
That's the most senseful regroup ability, as Thrór kept his Ring and Smaug couldn't put his claws on The One... I'd reduce his cost a bit, 15 seems enough if you are willing to use those cards that make him fight before site 8.
Dain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Dain Ironfoot : Cost (3). Home 9. Strength 7, Vitality 3. Ally. Dwarf. Thorin is strength +1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may discard a [dwarven] follower to discard a minion (except Smaug).
I still think this younger version of Dain should be str 8, dmg+1 instead... moreover if he'll fight these new monsters under development. Mirkwood and Esgaroth allies have the archer keyword, Iron Hills buddies should all be damage +1.
Thrain Pack (10 cards) :
- 2x • Thrain : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Follower. Dwarf. Strength +1. Aid - Exert Gandalf and add (2). Each time bearer wins a skirmish, you may play a [Dwarven] possession from your draw deck
Is there any chance of adding a way of playing Thráin from the draw deck? Anyway he won't play Orcrist nor any other artifact, but only his tricks and maybe Dwarven Axes or fortifications. He is the main gear in the whole pack and thus I believe the pack requires something to pull him, like a modification in Thrór's Heirlooms:
Thrór's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play Thráin, a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
- 2x • Ring of Thrór : Cost (0). [Dwarven] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is damage +1. Maneuver: Take a [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
:up: But given the Thráin Pack and the Main Deck don't provide weapons except Orcrist, the text may remain as it is but the attributes might be slightly better for fighting: strength +1, besides the vitality +1.
- 2x • Thrór's Key : cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Fellowship or Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion and discard a [Dwarven] follower to play the fellowship's next site (replacing opponent's site if necessary). Draw a card if you play a mountain site.
"Draw a card if you play a mountain site." I'd change it to "heal a Dwarf if you play a mountain", discarding a follower is a strong cost by itself. Just remember (or watch again) the last scene in An Unexpected Journey, when Thorin watched from distance his long lost beloved homeland:
GANDALF: Erebor... the Lonely Mountain. The last of the great Dwarf kingdoms of Middle-earth.
THORIN: Our home.
- 2x The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell. Skirmish: Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck and attach it to a Dwarf companion (without paying the aid cost).
This event seems very good but is far more limited than it looks... there are only 2 [Gandalf] followers. What if it plays allies too?
The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell. Maneuver or Skirmish: Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower or ally from your hand or draw deck. If its a follower, you may attach it to a Dwarf companion (without paying the aid cost). If it's an ally, may participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
That way Radagast may participate in skirmishes far from his home site, but only once as this card requires to play the ally and then allow him to fight. Radagast borne by a Great Eagle to the Battle of the Five Armies was such a great detail!
- 2x Barrels : Cost (1). [Shire] Event. Regroup: Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to discard up to 2 minions (except Smaug) and draw 3 cards. If the fellowship is at a river, make the move limit +1 for this turn.
"... and draw 3 cards". That's it! That's the addition it needed to represent the flavour of the situation.
One last point: if you are going to post the changes by including them in the first post, try to demark the recently changed cards and concepts. It's a good idea to edit the first post, but without a mark the reading of each card becomes very inefficient in respect of time. Adding an asterisk * before the title of the modified/added card might be enough...
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The Sauron and Nazgul Packs look good, but there are some things that don't seem to fit... For example, Sauron turns every Orc fierce but the strongest Orc available is just an unarmed 8 strenght guy who can't rival Thorin or Dwalin. Sauron can assign a minion to Bilbo... Nazgul are coting too much given their new Site Number of 5, some big ones like the Witchie and Attea should cost -2, while the smaller ones should cost -1 and be strength +1...
I'm convinced that key [Wraith] and [Sauron] minions in those packs should allow the Wise to fight them (and some Smaug cards do the same with Dale men), and give a punish or greater threat to the FP player in case a dwarf fights them. "Wizard and Elf allies may partificapte in skirimishes". Or "Wise allies may participate in skirimishes", and give the new "Wise" keyword to The White Council...
I modify a bit the Sauron culture. Tell me if it's ok.
Watchful Orc:
In case it's overpowered, or the text doesn't fit the card space, I'd leave it this way: "Shadow: Exert this minion twice to either replace the fellowship's current site with your site of the same number, or make each site on the adventure path gain mountain, forest or underground until the end of the turn." Believe it or not, that's shorter...
I replace the text with this one, your sentence is a bit too long to be perfectly clear. I put it in two parts. Tell me what you think about it. (I forgot the battleground keyword, which will be added).
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Watchful_Orc.png (http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Watchful_Orc.png)
Goblin Footman
When you play this minion, you may play a possession or artifact from your discard pile on your minion.
To play the Ring of Thrór on Sauron, great! And even play Troll Knife from discard, that was an abandoned aspect in the Troll culture. :up:
The Goblin Footman has always been able to play back the Troll Knife ;). The artifact part is new, but I don't know if it's very thematic.
Smaug
That's the most senseful regroup ability, as Thrór kept his Ring and Smaug couldn't put his claws on The One... I'd reduce his cost a bit, 15 seems enough if you are willing to use those cards that make him fight before site 8.
It was 16 before and it was really easy to play him for 4 at site 8.
We have to test it, I think we will let him at 16, it's good.
- 2x • Dain Ironfoot : Cost (3). Home 9. Strength 7, Vitality 3. Ally. Dwarf. Thorin is strength +1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may discard a [dwarven] follower to discard a minion (except Smaug).
I still think this younger version of Dain should be str 8, dmg+1 instead... moreover if he'll fight these new monsters under development. Mirkwood and Esgaroth allies have the archer keyword, Iron Hills buddies should all be damage +1.
No sorry, I prefer to keep the same abilities than in LOTR even if he is younger. Like Bilbo, Galadriel, ...
- 2x • Thrain : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Follower. Dwarf. Strength +1. Aid - Exert Gandalf and add (2). Each time bearer wins a skirmish, you may play a [Dwarven] possession from your draw deck
Is there any chance of adding a way of playing Thráin from the draw deck? Anyway he won't play Orcrist nor any other artifact, but only his tricks and maybe Dwarven Axes or fortifications. He is the main gear in the whole pack and thus I believe the pack requires something to pull him, like a modification in Thrór's Heirlooms:
Thrór's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play Thráin, a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
I don't think it's so much thematic. There is other way to play Thrain, the site 1 in the Booster pack or King Under the Mountain if there is also the Dain pack.
- 2x • Ring of Thrór :
:up: But given the Thráin Pack and the Main Deck don't provide weapons except Orcrist, the text may remain as it is but the attributes might be slightly better for fighting: strength +1, besides the vitality +1.
I prefer to keep all the Ring with only a Vitality +1. It's more coherent ^^.
- 2x • Thrór's Key : cost (1). [Dwarven] Possession. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Fellowship or Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion and discard a [Dwarven] follower to play the fellowship's next site (replacing opponent's site if necessary). Draw a card if you play a mountain site.
"Draw a card if you play a mountain site." I'd change it to "heal a Dwarf if you play a mountain", discarding a follower is a strong cost by itself. Just remember (or watch again) the last scene in An Unexpected Journey, when Thorin watched from distance his long lost beloved homeland:
[/quote]
Ok thank you, I just change it ^^.
The Eagles Are Coming
Right. But I want to keep cards simpler as possible. I propose the following
- 2x The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell.
Maneuver: Exert a [Gandalf] ally to allow that ally to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
Skirmish: Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck or discard pile and attach it to a Dwarf companion (without paying the aid cost).
One last point: if you are going to post the changes by including them in the first post, try to demark the recently changed cards and concepts. It's a good idea to edit the first post, but without a mark the reading of each card becomes very inefficient in respect of time. Adding an asterisk * before the title of the modified/added card might be enough...
I will let you know what I change in my current post.
Thank you for all your ideas, they are great!!
PS: You will see on the first post a first proposition for the Shadow Archery.
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First, the pending issues... then the New Shadow cultures.
1) Pending Issues:
I replace the text with this one, your sentence is a bit too long to be perfectly clear. I put it in two parts. Tell me what you think about it. (I forgot the battleground keyword, which will be added).
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Watchful_Orc.png (http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Watchful_Orc.png)
Good! That means there will be minions and Shadow cards festing in battlegrounds. I believe Azog's and Bolg's Besiegers should take profit from battlegrounds. About them, I found this line in LOTR wiki: "... Azog's Orc army from Dol Guldur, and Bolg's Orc army from Gundabad." In respect of the 5 armies, in the movie version. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hobbit:_The_Battle_of_the_Five_Armie s (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hobbit:_The_Battle_of_the_Five_Armies)
Your version is much better than mine. It's far more clear, and the costly part should be the replacing of the current site, not the keyword addition. Great!
The Goblin Footman has always been able to play back the Troll Knife ;). The artifact part is new, but I don't know if it's very thematic.
If Goblin Footman's culture was Gundabad or Sauron, it would be more thematic. But who cares, it's very close to that!
It was 16 before and it was really easy to play him for 4 at site 8.
We have to test it, I think we will let him at 16, it's good.
Didn't know his cost was sometimes only [4]... But if we are trying to make him appear several times instead of just in site 8, he will have less characters and followers to spot, AND will be roaming. 16 looks good then.
No sorry, I prefer to keep the same abilities than in LOTR even if he is younger. Like Bilbo, Galadriel, ...
There are 2 characters here that appear too in LOTR TCG, which have different attributes: Sauron (Strength 24, Vitality 5, fierce, dmg+2) and Glóin (strength 5 and no dmg, to 6 dmg+1). The case of Sauron is quite self-explanatory and can't be considered a good example. But Glóin's base strength and damage are better here.
I don't think it's so much thematic. There is other way to play Thrain, the site 1 in the Booster pack or King Under the Mountain if there is also the Dain pack.
That's right, he can be played with Bilbo's Kitchen. But the map and the key appear from the start in both movie and book. That's why I think it would be a good idea to have something within his pack to play him early...
The Dain pack won't coincide often with Thráin's. 2 in 7 if there are 4 players, 4 in 7 if are 8.
I prefer to keep all the Ring with only a Vitality +1. It's more coherent ^^.
The problem I see is there's only a random FP pack if 2 players, well, play. If it happens to be Thráin's, there won't be weapons for any dwarf but Thorin, and that leaves me with a sensation of low power and protection. And Thráin can't even play Orcrist from draw deck... So I believe the Ring must add a little strength. Though the Rings didn't made dwarven bearers live longer nor be invisible, alike men they made them much stronger, vigorous and keen minded...
The Thráin Pack will hardly meet Dain's or Thorin's packs, the chances are very low. And it will require 4 or more players... Little to no chances of dwarven weapons to protect the company. That's all I mean.
Thror's Key - "Heal a Dwarf if you play a mountain"...
Ok thank you, I just change it ^^.
Such a great scene, Thorin gets healed by Gandalf and wakes to see his distant home and heirloom. I had to withhold my tears the first time I watched it ^^.
I would love to see a Gandalf healing spell included, but I know the slots are all filled in the current packs. :(
Right. But I want to keep cards simpler as possible. I propose the following
- 2x The Eagles Are Coming : [Gandalf] Cost (2). Event. Spell.
Maneuver: Exert a [Gandalf] ally to allow that ally to participate in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase.
Skirmish: Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck or discard pile and attach it to a Dwarf companion (without paying the aid cost).
Much better! =D> =D> =D> Now Radagast can fight! And another mechanism for Saruman, in case the White Council Pack meets the Wizard one.
Thank you for all your ideas, they are great!!
You are welcome my friend!
2) The Necromancer [Sauron] culture.
We have to understand this is a subpack of the Beatdown Pack, and though it may interact with subpacks of other Beatdown or Swarm Packs (cheers to that!), the Beatdown Pack must rely solely on itself and the Main Deck... Beatdown here is the concept: strong minions (fixed or pumped), with attributes like damage bonus or fierce, and tricks like grinding, ambushing, corrupting, discarding...
Shadow Sauron (10 cards):
- 3x • Sauron: Cost (3). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4. Sauron may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish. Orcs are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarf] ccompanion, [Gandalf] character or [Elf] ally. That character may exert to prevent this.
- 2x • Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (2). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Skirmish: Exert Sauron to make a minion strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf).
Sauron concretely fights twice in the movies, and threatens to fight Radagast at the first... I firmly believe he must be able to fight, but the Ring of Thrór should be part of his new embodiment.
[4] • Sauron, The Necromancer [Sauron].
Minion • Maia.
Strength: 15 Vitality 4. Site 5.
Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Wizard and Elf allies may participate in skirmishes. Orcs are fierce and strength +1.
Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to an elegible character (except Bilbo). That character may exert to prevent this.
Removed the archery protection, directed archery is few here and he might protect other minions like Saruman, Rabble-Rouser does. And to save some card room ;). The skirmish prevention must be the first line, just like Saruman, in order to make the Ring of Thrór allow Sauron to fight the way Saruman's Staff does.
"Orcs are strength +1" is there to make those small, unarmed, unmounted Orcs be a challenge to Thorin's Company and justify the fierce addition (without any other Swarm or Beatdown Pack, the Orcs in the Main Deck have no possession to aid them). Besides, it justifies the cost increase of +1 (now costs 4, like Saruman SotE but roams a bit more).
Removed the [Gandalf] character and [Elven] ally part in the assignment ability (because it's under control of solely the Shadow player, and thus only Gandalf will be assigned by him/her in order to swarm or beatdown the Dwarves), and replaced that part with a non-ability skill that allows Wizards and [Elven] allies to paticipate (by any player).
Preserved the "assign another minion", as the Ring of Thrór will make him fight and that assignment should be in the hands of the FP player...
[3] • Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings [Sauron]
Artifact • Ring.
Vitality +1.
Bearer must be Sauron. He is fierce and the first sentence of his game text doesn't apply.
When you play this artifact, take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand.
Skirmish: Exert Sauron to make a minion strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf) (limit once per skirmish).
Sauron fights, as a 15 str 5 vit fierce monster, costing 2 cards and [7]. No damage +1, because of his strenght potential (he's like Lord of Angmar). He might assign strong FP guys to fight small creatures, in order to overwhelm himself the little ones. The skirmish ability is limited to only once, otherwise he will concentrate his vitality to overwhelm Thorin, Gandy or Bilbo. Each surviving minion (except Gollum) will fight again for a beatdown, including him, as Orcs are now fierce and Trolls, Spiders and Nazgul (and Wargs) are naturally fierce. Besides, Danger Wrapped in Shadow will turn each orkish skirmish very dangerous.
If the FP player has the Ring of Thrór, you will need to kill/discard/capture in jail it's bearer, or discard the Ring directly with Smaug's Fury of the Dragon.
- 2x Jail: Cost (1). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. To play, spot a [Sauron] card. No more than one companion can be stacked here. Response: If a companion is about to be discarded or loses a fierce skirmish, stack him on this condition.
Jail's concept is a very good one! But there are some points I'd like to change...
There are too few Sauron cards per player (10 divided in the total number of players...), so that spotting requirement must be widen to [Wraith] cards at least (maybe Spider too); Dol Guldur is the idea here. The stacking after a fierce skirmish doesn't make sense unless the companion is exhausted; I like the idea but 'd change that part to a regroup action depending on an unique minion (a captain, commander, leader... someone with authority).
[1] Jail [Sauron]
Condition • Support area.
To play, spot a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card. No more than one card can be stacked here. Another copy of a companion stacked here may not be played.
Response: If a companion is about to be discarded, stack him on this condition instead.
Regroup: Exert an unique minion (except Smaug) to stack an exhausted companion here (except Bilbo).
I don't know if the specification of Bilbo is necessary. The sentence in bold makes sense only if this Hobbit Draft Game is available in Gemp, in which case would be converted into a TCG. With possibility of multiple copies of a companion.
- 3x Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. At the start of your Shadow phase, if you cannot spot Gandalf, you may take in hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile. Skirmish: Remove (2) to make an Orc strength +2 (+3 if you cannot spot Gandalf).
"You may take into hand". Great text! I'd change the "remove [2]" to remove [3], like Guard Commander. I once made a Guard Commander strength +20 at site 3 (and of course Aragorn died); the Shadow player might play a single Orc in order to overwhelm a companion of FP player's choice with the remaining twilight. Unless a limit is added, something like "limit once per each minion you can spot". A Watchful Orc + Sauron to assign it = twice only. And I think it should help anyone under Sauron's command (and Sauron himself). It's not an unique condition, so the limit will be almost meaningless if there are 2 copies or more...
[2] Danger Wrapped in Shadows [Sauron]
Condition • Support area.
If you cannot spot Gandalf, at the start of your Shadow phase you may take into hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Remove [3] to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (or +3 if you cannot spot Gandalf); limit once per each minion you can spot.
That limit is meant to work inside the same skirmish... "A limit does not span multiple phases. Trust Me As You Once Did could be used for +3 in each of two or more separate skirmish phases during the same turn."
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/comprehensive_rules_4-0
The idea I try to depict is a Beatdwon by means of multiple, fierce and sometimes directed skirmishes as first resource. And overwhelming as a second.
That's all about the Sauron Culture. I still have things to say about the Smaug and Nazgul Cultures...
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3) The Smaug (Non)Culture:
Shadow Smaug (15 cards):
- 2x • The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: Cost (2). [No Culture] Artifact. Strength +2. To play spot Smaug, if you can spot The Arkenstone, discard it. Plays on Bilbo. Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2. Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to this character."
Still lacks the "Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])". Otherwise, great!
- 4x Smaug's Awakening: Cost (3). [No culture] Condition • Support area. To play, discard 4 cards from hand. Shadow: Remove a doubt to make each site on the adventure path a mountain until the end of the turn. Shadow: Play Smaug at twilight cost -3 from your draw deck or discard pile, he is strength -3 and damage -1 until the regroup phase.
"To play, discard 4 cards from hand." This card might be played to cycle hand, besides playing Smaug. :up:
"Shadow: Remove a doubt to make each site... gain mountain until the end of the turn."
- 3x • Fury of the Dragon: Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Each time Smaug kills a character in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion. Shadow: Remove two doubts to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
I really believe this one should make Dale men fight.
The title might be changed to "Wrath of the Dragon", quoting Old Bilbo's words at An Unexpected Journey: "Thranduil would not risk the lives of his kin against the Wrath of the Dragon". Or Thranduil's when talking to Thorin: "Do not talk to me of Dragon fire. I know its Wrath and Ruin".
[2] • Wrath of the Dragon. [No culture]
Condition • Support area.
If you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies may participate in archery fire and skirmishes.
Each time Smaug kills the character he is skirmishing, add a doubt and exert a companion (or add 2 doubts and wound 2 non- [Shire] characters if it was a [Dale] ally).
Shadow: Remove 3 doubts to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
Lore: "What have we done?" or "Revenge?! Revenge?! I will show you revenge!"
3 doubts instead. Or "Remove 2 doubts and exert Smaug". Otherwise this card will discard over and over again [Dwarven] Artifacts, as 2 doubts aren't too hard to pile up (and Orcrist might be the difference between Smaug defeated and 2 dead FP characters)... This card adds doubts too. Smaug might be assigned to Dale men with Sauron's assignment ability (as Dale men are now "elegible characters"). To remove those pesky men from the board, and to add doubts and wound characters as a mere side effect... Oh really what have we done! You can assign Smaug to 2 Dale men in order to add 4 doubts!
The specification of "the character he is skirmishing" is there to prevent that ridiculous wheel of wounds of Promise Keeping + They Stole It + Threats, if Smaug kills a Dale character fighting him and then wounds another one who's exhausted.
- 3x Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. Shadow: Remove a doubt and discard a minion from play to make each site on the adventure path a mountain until the end of the turn. Shadow: Discard 2 Orcs from play to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.
This version seems a bit redundant, in respect of Smaug's Awakening... It's good for recurrence to play Smaug (and this one doesn't reduce his strenght and damage), but might be a bit better. Just add this at the end: "Regroup: Spot a [Dwarven] artifact and discard this condition to add a doubt." To reflect the division the gold hoard caused amongst the Free Peoples. Emeralds of Girion, FP Arkenstone, Orcrist, FP Ring of Thrór, Mithril Coat... all are [Dwarven] artifacts.
- 3x Dissension: Cost (3). [No culture] Event - Skirmish or Regroup. You may exert Smaug twice to play this event from your discard pile. Skirmish: Spot X doubts to make a Dwarf companion strength -X. Regroup: Exert Smaug to add a doubt.
What a great turn sir! Now may be played from discard in either Regroup or Skirmish phase by exerting Smaug twice. Excellent! Reminds me of Gleaming In the Snow...
This Smaug subpack ends up as both a Beatdown and a Corruption subpack. Marvelous!
I still owe you the revision of the Nazgul Shadow... (and the Archery Shadow too...)
But it's a bit too late here... :wuh?: :-Z
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4) The Nazgul [Wraith] Culture:
I like most of these cards, but must say there are some general flaws which need to be corrected:
1. The twilight cost is too high for minions with a site number of 5. It's the same they have in LOTR TCG (where they stop roaming at 3 and strike the sooner the better). Strength and cost relation must be compensated, either by increasing strength or by reducing twilight cost. And increasing the strength might be a bad idea for many Nazgul, as they would overwhelm too easily.
2. There's a very low total number of cards for the culture. Supposedly it's 15, but divided in 2 or 4 as an average, if respectively there are 2 or 4 players. So each minion must be very important by itself, or very low costed for a moderately strong impact. And the cost of discarding a [Wraith] card to play another one can't be a good mechansims, moreover if those Nazgul are designed to collaborate with each other...
The way the Nine Ringwraiths are depicted in the Battle of the Five Armies is different than in the LOTR trilogy: when one gets defeated, he immediatly reappears. Over and over again... Which inspires a possible solution.
The solution I see consists of 2 parts:
1. Reduce the cost of each Nazgul by 2, preserving the other attributes. Therefore each will cost while roaming the same as their Site 3 counterparts, but since Site 5 will be much more twilight efficient and menacing. Like Uruks past 5...
2. Add a sentence to reflect that reappearing attribute they show in the movie. "You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile." That therefore reduces the high impact of low [Wraith] card count in the deck, and makes them "resurrect" each time they need... And when they "resurrect", they have the same cost as their LOTR site 3 counterparts...
There's another sentence the Nazgul should have, at least the most important of them: "[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may participate in skirmishes."
Here's a good quality video of the Battle at Dol Guldur:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5rv2ksepsA
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1) Pending Issues:
That's right, he can be played with Bilbo's Kitchen. But the map and the key appear from the start in both movie and book. That's why I think it would be a good idea to have something within his pack to play him early...
The Dain pack won't coincide often with Thráin's. 2 in 7 if there are 4 players, 4 in 7 if are 8.
Ok I just change :
Thrór's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play Thráin, a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
If it happens to be Thráin's, there won't be weapons for any dwarf but Thorin, and that leaves me with a sensation of low power and protection.
All followers act as permanent boosts, since they can be transfered to any companion. I remove the damage +1 ability (it would be too much) :
• Ring of Thrór : Cost (0). [Dwarven] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is strength +1 for each [Dwarven] possession and [Dwarven] artifact in your discard pile (limit +3). Maneuver: Take a [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
I would love to see a Gandalf healing spell included, but I know the slots are all filled in the current packs.
I just made a modification on Galadriel to add some healing ability.
• Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 3. Strength 3, vitality 3. At the start of each of your turns, you may heal Gandalf. Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel or a Wizard is skirmishing that minion).
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2) The Necromancer culture.
Some important points of the game are the following:
- simplicition of the cards, no more than 2 sentences of abilities (like in LOTR TCG)
- FOTR rules (except followers)
- interaction with the main deck
- counter-draft
- exhaustive theme covering all the movies and the book (if able)
I don't think there is a need of strength +1 for the Orcs as the [Isengard] Orcs in FOTR with Saruman assigning the Orcs. The "eligible" word is too confused, it was used in LOTR TCG only for bearing a possession. We have to cut one sentence in your text. I change a bit Sauron
• Sauron: Cost (4). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4. Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish. Minions are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarf] companion, [Gandalf] character or [Elf] ally. That character may exert to prevent this.
The text of the Ring is too long. There are too much sentences. We will keep only 2 sentences. I propose this:
• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (3). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply until the regroup phase.
There is only one copy of each companion in the game. Jail is also too complicated, can we just change the "loses fierce skirmish" by another response ?
I also change a bit the last card:
Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. At the start of your Shadow phase, if you cannot spot Gandalf, you may take in hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile. Skirmish: Remove (3) to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4).
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3) The Smaug (Non)Culture:
Ok for "Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])". I remove the part :" if you can spot the Arkenstone, discard it", there are other ways to discard the Arkenstone.
Ok for Wrath of the Dragon, good point! But the text is now too long. I mix two of your proposed cards.
• Wrath of the Dragon: Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Each time Smaug kills a character in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion. Shadow: Remove two doubts and exert Smaug to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. If you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies may participate in archery fire and skirimishes. Shadow: Discard 2 Orcs from play to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.
Thank you.
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Some important points of the game are the following:
- simplicition of the cards, no more than 2 sentences of abilities (like in LOTR TCG)
- FOTR rules (except followers)
- interaction with the main deck
- counter-draft
- exhaustive theme covering all the movies and the book (if able)
"simplicition of the cards, no more than 2 sentences of abilities (like in LOTR TCG)"
There are some cards with more than 2 sentences, like Aragorn, Defender of Free Peoples, or The Balrog, Terror of Flame and Shadow. Or Flame of Udun (with 2 paragraphs but 3 sentences)... but I agree with the simplicity. And agree with everything else.
I confess my card ideas often are too complicated and too long, so I'll try to make them shorter and simpler. But can't promise I'll achive that every time, so you will have to equilibrate that flaw of mine...
The "eligible" word is too confused, it was used in LOTR TCG only for bearing a possession. We have to cut one sentence in your text. I change a bit Sauron.
• Sauron: Cost (4). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4. Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish. Minions are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarf] companion, [Gandalf] character or [Elf] ally. That character may exert to prevent this.
It still worries me the fact Sauron ables [Gandalf] and [Elven] allies to be assigned by only the Shadow player. Which means it just won't happen (in order to kill companions instead), unless that ally is so unbalancing or annoying that he/she deserves to be killed (like Elrond being the only Elf, healing Dale men with Emeralds of Girion; or Elrond healing the fellowship each turn).
But there is another way of allowing the White Council to fight Sauron and the Nazgul: instead of being the Dol Guldur forces who spend card room for that ability, may be The Wise who use theirs. "This ally may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions". Usable by the FP player and by Sauron's text. You may replace "this ally" with the corresponding: Saruman, Galadriel, Radagast, Elrond.
Besides, that way The White Council wouldn't be able to fight Orcs or Spiders while spotting a Nazgul, but only that Nazgul...
I don't think there is a need of strength +1 for the Orcs as the [Isengard] Orcs in FOTR with Saruman assigning the Orcs.
I just thought it would be useful due to Dwalin, Balin, Thorin, Gandalf will easily defeat or kill those small unarmed, unmounted Orcs of the Main deck (the Beatdown Pack has not a single Orc). But if there's Danger Wrapped in Shadows on the board, that strength addition will be of less need. And Sauron assigning small minions to the big guys, and bigger Orcs to Bilbo and exhausted companions is enough a threat.
The "eligible" word is too confused, it was used in LOTR TCG only for bearing a possession.
That's true for card text, it has been used only for possession and condition transferring. But for rules, "eligible character" is sometimes used in rulebooks (see below). "Elegible character (except Bilbo)" is much shorter than "Dwarf companion, [Gandalf] character or [Elven] ally" for the exact same purpose (and more if Smaug and Twisted Gold of Dragon are on the board), and I really believe that card room may be used instead for great things. I don't see any problem with using that word...
"Eligible" word in rulebooks:
1) Ally: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/ally
"... If the fellowship is at an ally’s home site (or if a card effect has allowed an ally to participate in skirmishes), that ally may be assigned to a skirmish in the same way that companions are assigned to skirmishes.
This doesn’t mean that such an ally must take an archery wound or be assigned by the Free Peoples player to defend a skirmish, but that character is eligible to do so if the Free Peoples player so chooses."
2) Assignment Phase: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/comprehensive_rules_4-0
"If an assigned minion subsequently becomes unassigned as a result of a card’s game text (e.g. a triggered ability), it is not a leftover minion and is not eligible to be assigned by the Shadow player."
The text of the Ring is too long. There are too much sentences. We will keep only 2 sentences. I propose this:
• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (3). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply until the regroup phase.
This one looks good! As the strength pumps rely now only in Danger Wrapped in Shadows, I'd change "take up to 2 minions" for "take up to 2 minions or conditions", to ensure the pump is always present to beatdown the Company. And conditions are the way the game represents resources, being Sauron the most resourceful of Tolkien's characters in the Second and Third Ages.
I don't think the maneuver ability should be optional. It must be optional with a mere 10 str Saruman + Staff without pumps, but here we are talking about a 15 str, 5 vit guy with Danger Wrapped... pumping him. Besides, Sauron was forced by Gandalf to fight when he wasn't ready, and later by the White Council. So I'd leave it as "Bearer must be Sauron. The first sentence of his game text does not apply", which is not optional, and is much shorter.
There is only one copy of each companion in the game. Jail is also too complicated, can we just change the "loses fierce skirmish" by another response ?
You are right, it's too complicated. Besides, as a regroup action Elrond might heal the companion and spoil the whole thing... Look at this version:
[1] Jail [Sauron]
Condition • Support area.
To play, spot a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card. No more than one card can be stacked here.
Response: If a companion is exhausted after losing a fierce skirmish (or if is about to be discarded), stack him on this condition.
Sauron turns every minion fierce, and fierce guys tend to exhaust more easily. So if the Shadow player can't kill a specific companion after skirmishes, can still get rid of him. Sauron's assignment ability might exhaust companions too, so if Jail is present, the FP player will need to think twice an exertion to prevent that assignment.
I also change a bit the last card:
Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area. At the start of your Shadow phase, if you cannot spot Gandalf, you may take in hand a [Sauron] card from your discard pile. Skirmish: Remove (3) to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4).
Hmmm. This one is good. But might be improved a bit. The skill to take back a [Sauron] card should be broaden to "a [Sauron] or [Gundabad] card", as a player will have only 4 or 6 [Sauron] cards in the draft as average, and 1 of them will be this card if you want to use its text. It would represent better the fear the imprisoned Gandalf suffers when seeing the Orc Host (probably here that Host will be [Gundabad] and not [Sauron]).
Now this card is the only pump for the culture. The previous Ring of Thrór had the cost of exerting Sauron to pump. I'd add that cost as another option in this card: "Remove [3] or exert Sauron to make a minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4)".
I'd like to see a [Sauron] cultured mechanism to discard FP artifacts or possessions. Like when Sauron burned Gandalf's Staff, or something to discard the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór. But I can't propose anything by now...
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Ok I just change :
Thrór's Heirlooms : Cost (3) [Dwarven] Event. Regroup: Exert a Dwarf companion to play Thráin, a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
:up:
All followers act as permanent boosts, since they can be transfered to any companion. I remove the damage +1 ability (it would be too much) :
• Ring of Thrór : Cost (0). [Dwarven] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be a Dwarf companion. Bearer is strength +1 for each [Dwarven] possession and [Dwarven] artifact in your discard pile (limit +3). Maneuver: Take a [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile. Discard this artifact.
This version looks awesome! Vitality bonus, a hidden ace to pull any suitable event, and some surprisingly good strength addition (the more worn out the Company is, the more strength this Ring will add). Yes, a damage additon would be too much!
I just made a modification on Galadriel to add some healing ability.
• Galadriel : Cost (3). Ally. Elf. Home 3. Strength 3, vitality 3. At the start of each of your turns, you may heal Gandalf. Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion skirmishing strength -3 (or -6 if Galadriel or a Wizard is skirmishing that minion).
Great! I had the feeling the FP side was lacking some healing, even with Elrond in the Main Deck.
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3) The Smaug (Non)Culture:
Ok for "Each character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])". I remove the part :" if you can spot the Arkenstone, discard it", there are other ways to discard the Arkenstone.
We made a little mistake with "Each character..." It must be "Each companion or ally", otherwise The Shadow Arkenstone will weaken minions too.
Ok for Wrath of the Dragon, good point! But the text is now too long. I mix two of your proposed cards.
• Wrath of the Dragon: Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Each time Smaug kills a character in a skirmish, you may add a doubt and exert a companion. Shadow: Remove two doubts and exert Smaug to discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. If you can spot Smaug, [Dale] allies may participate in archery fire and skirmishes. Shadow: Discard 2 Orcs from play to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.
Thank you.
They lack the mountain keyword additon to sites... Besides that, MAGNIFICENT!
Might be in Twisted Gold: "Smaug's twilight cost is -2 and each site on the adventure path is a mountain".
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Thank you for your comments. I just made some quick changes on the Smaug and Sauron Shadows. Sauron can now fight everytime.
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Jail looks great. I was thinking about the issue with 1x copy per companion... There's a simple solution if this game is going to be played in Gemp: EVERY companion can be added to the R-list. Only 1 copy per deck.
I like the fact Sauron can't discard the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór to play the [Sauron] version, as he can still try to get rid of it by assigning its bearer to a serious threat (like Smaug or the Witch King). Or with Wrath of the Dragon.
Now the Ring of Thrór is much more threatening in Sauron's hand! The artifact discarding ability is much better than a simple pump. Nonetheless, it can't discard a Wizard Staff borne by Gandy as it only discards artifacts (and can discard Emeralds of Girion or the [Dwarven] Arkenstone). What if we change it to a Skirmish action? "Skirmish: Exert Sauron twice to discard a card borne by another character in his skirmish."
That way, it would represent better the fight between Sauron and Gandalf (and it wouldn't discard artifacts in the support area). And would turn the assignment of Sauron far more dangerous to the FP player...
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I noticed an issue with Goblin Footman, though not necessarily a problem. He plays items from discard pile on minions. And the main deck has not a single item, so he must work with Booster Packs.
The 1st Swarm Pack provides the Goblin Scimitar, while the 1st Beatdown Pack is more prolific: there are 3 mounts for Orcs and the Troll Knives. The new Swarm Pack will have at least the Orkish Bow in the Archers sub-Pack, and might have weapons for Orcs and/or Trolls in the Besiegers sub-Pack.
The new Beatdown Pack has only 1 item bearable by a minion: the Ring of Thrór. Which unlike the previously mentioned items is unique, and must be borne by an unique minion with scarce copies.
Shall we include a Morgul Blade for the Nazgul? If so, what should be removed? If not, should we add or modify something in Goblin Footman's text to make him more useful in absense of bearable items?
As I said above, this is not necessarily a problem. But I think it might be an opportunity.
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4) The Nazgul [Wraith] Culture:
You haven't said anything yet about the ideas to modify the way the Nazgul culture works. That's OK, take your time my friend ;).
In the meantime, I will proceed to comment each Nazgul and suggest some changes, including the ideas depicted in the previous post about the [Wraith] culture. Those are:
1. Their twilight cost should be -2, given their site number is +2. Otherwise will arrive too late to the party.
2. An ability to "reappear" from discard pile, just like in the movie at Dol Guldur.
3. Some key Nazgul must allow the White Council to participate in skirmishes: "[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions." Only [Wraith], as the sole [Sauron] minion ables the Council to fight him.
4. [Wraith] and [Sauron] cultures must share some costs and benefits, given the shortage of cards of those cultures each player will have.
5. Therefore, the cost of discarding a [Wraith] card to play a Nazgul (Witch, Toldea) should be removed.
Points 2 and 3 will make the card space somewhat scarce :(... But point 3 doesn't need to be in every Nazgul's text.
If points 1 and 2 are used, the mechanisms for shuffling [Wraith] cards (minions, there is nothing else) back to the draw deck won't be of much necessity, and even might be counterproductive, because in the latter game the Shadow player will have plenty of minions in discard pile and probably will play them better from there, having to take care only of the use of twilight. That skill requires removing [2] to replay a Nazgul, so twilight addition and/or cost reduction would be much more useful than recycling [Wraith] cards back to the draw deck.
By the way, Nazgul won't have to worry about decking out ;). Using the previous point, we shouldn't give too much emphasis on mechanisms to shuffle back cards, and in those cases must allow to shuffle back any Shadow card, no matter what culture. In most cases that card space might be used for simpler yet more powerful things...
For inspiration purposes, here's a better video than the previous, of the Battle at Dol Guldur...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LahLu_rni34
- 2x • The Witch-King, Revived: Cost (8). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 14, Vitality 4. Fierce. To play, discard a [Wraith] card from hand. The twilight cost of each other Nazgûl is -2. Skirmish: Discard two cards from hand to make a minion damage +1.
The skiimish ability is a bit overpowered: play the Witch King and empty you hand to make him damage +3. But the effect is indeed a very good idea. I'd change it to "Discard 2 Shadow cards from hand...".
The cost of discarding a [Wraith] card is just inviable, so was removed. The twilight reduction of 2 to everyone else is unnecesary if we use the idea depicted in point 1, so was removed too.
[6] • The Witch-King, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength: 14 Vitality: 4 Site: 5
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Skirmish: Discard two Shadow cards from hand to make a minion damage +1.
- 2x • Ulaire Toldea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3. Fierce. To play, discard a [Wraith] card from hand. The twilight cost of each other Nazgûl is -2. Skirmish: Spot an Orc and remove (2) to make a minion strength +3.
I wonder if this Skirmish action can remain unfolded. It's an improved form of Danger Wrapped in Shadows and that's a good thing, but would be too easy to overwhelm a companion if this is not limited. I'd limit its use to only once per skirmish, due to it will pile up with Danger Wrapped and that way you can sum up to +7 strength to a single minion. And given the strength of some beasts like Sauron and the Witch King, overwhelmings would be somewhat easy...
There's a worrisome unbalance of strenght pumps between Shadow and FP. In respect of skirmish abilities, the FP have Glóin (dangerous), Galadriel (limited to 2 exertions) and Burglar's Contract, while the Shadow side will have Danger Wrapped in Shadows and Ulaire Toldea, which are easy to pay and pile up...
Toldea can do a really strong teamwork with the Witch King.
[4] • Ulaire Toldea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength: 12 Vitality: 3 Site: 5
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Skirmish: Spot an Orc and remove [2] to make a minion strength +3 (limit once per skirmish).
- 2x • Ulaire Attea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3. Fierce. Shadow : discard a [Wraith] card from hand to add (2). Regroup: Exert your Orc and discard a [Wraith]? card from hand to discard an [Gandalf] or [Elven] ally.
When Radagast found the Morgul Blade, he fought a Nazgul presumed to be the Witch King. But the crown of that Nazgul was actually Khamul's (Ulaire Attea)... I believe it was a mistake from Weta Workshop and Peter Jackson.
Good text on this Nazgul. If this guy threatens the White Council, they must be able to fight! Which causes a problem with card room :(. I'd rather remove the Shadow abiity than the Regroup one; adding twilight is important but not as much given the twilight reduction depicted in point 1. Anyway, I'd use that Shadow ability with another Nazgul...
Discarding a [Wraith] card is too heavy a cost, but can be broaden to other pertinent cultures: Sauron, and perhaps Spider.
[4] • Ulaire Attea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 12 Vitality 3 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Regroup: Exert your Orc and discard a [Wraith] or [Sauron] card from hand to discard a [Gandalf] or [Elven] ally.
- 2x • Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4. Fierce. Response: If an Orc is killed or discarded from play, exert Ulaire Enquea to shuffle up to two [Wraith] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck (except during the regroup phase).
The shuffling ability makes little sense if we use the ideas depicted above. Unless it can shuffle any Shadow card. Also I changed it from response to an "each time" action, you will see why when you look at Lemenya and Otsea...
By the way, when a minion gets killed, that minion is discarded from play, so you don't have to specify the 2 situations by separate.
[4] • Ulaire Enquea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 11 Vitality 4 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Each time an Orc is discarded from play (except during the regroup phase), you may exert this minion to shuffle two Shadow cards from your discard pile into your draw deck.
- 2x • Ulaire Cantea, Revived: Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Fierce. Each time this minion wins a skirmish, you may discard an Orc from play to shuffle up to two [Wraith] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck?.
The recycling part won't be much useful, and Enquea takes care of that. Cantea might be a twilight facilitator, reducing the cost of other Nazgul. And in the case an Orc gets killed or discarded, they may get other benefits...
[3] • Ulaire Cantea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 10 Vitality 3 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Other Nazgûl are twilight cost -1.
Each time an Orc is discarded from play, you may exert Ulaire Cantea to add [2] or draw 2 cards.
Look below at Lemenya and Otsea for insane combos with Cantea and Enquea...
- 2x • Ulaire Nelya, Revived: Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Fierce. When you play this minion, you may spot an Orc to take a [Wraith] card into hand from your draw deck or discard pile.
If we use the points 1 and 2 depicted above, although cards like this will lose the monopoly of using the discard pile, this nazzie's effect will be even better (as a Nazgul played from hand costs -2 than played from discard). Might be broaden to [Sauron] cards, to assure the presence of a key card (Danger Wrapped in Shadows, Ring of Thrór, Sauron himself).
Naturally, Nelya's text will be abused and he'll be replayed from discard often, so he will be a good bearer of that line that allows the White Council to fight...
[3] • Ulaire Nelya, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 10 Vitality 3 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
When you play this minion, you may take a [Wraith] or [Sauron] card into hand from your draw deck or discard pile.
- 1x • Ulaire Nertea, Revived: Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 2. Fierce. Skirmish: Discard this minion and an Orc from play to play a [Wraith] minion from your draw deck or discard pile, its twilight cost is -4.
This Nazgul depicts very well their behavior in the movie! If a key Nazgul gets killed, you can "revive" him by discarding this one and an Orc. Great!
[2] • Ulaire Nertea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 9 Vitality 2 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Discard this minion and an Orc from play to play a [Wraith] minion from your draw deck or discard pile, its twilight cost is -4.
- 1x • Ulaire Lemenya, Revived: Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 2. Fierce. While you can spot another [Wraith] card, each [Wraith] minion is strength +2 for each Orc you can spot. Regroup: Wound your Orc to shuffle a [Wraith] card from your discard pile into your draw deck.
"Each [Wraith] minion is strength +2 for each Orc you can spot" seems a bit abusive... I know it depends on the survival of Orcs, but Toldea and Danger Wrapped in Shadows should provide enough pumps. I'd prefer he allowed the White Council to fight, as only the Witch King, Toldea, Attea and Nelya share that property...
The regroup action might not be too useful now. I replaced it with a Shadow action, the one ripped from Attea above. But a bit improved: you may discard an Orc from play too. To make a beautiful twilight-adding combo with Cantea, and another to recycle cards with Enquea.
[2] • Ulaire Lemenya, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 9 Vitality 2 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
[Gandalf] and [Elven] allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions.
Shadow: Discard a [Wraith] card from hand (or discard an Orc from play) to add [2].
- 1x • Ulaire Ostea, Revived: Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgul. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Fierce. Other Nazgûls are strength +1. Skirmish: Discard an Orc from play to draw 1 card for each [Wraith]? minion you spot.
"Other Nazgûls are strength +1" is OK. But "Nazgûl" is both the singular and plural form...
The skirmish ability should be broaden to [Sauron] minions, and might be a Shadow action instead... With that skill of point 2 (to play them from discard), they won't need to draw too much in the later game. It's still a good idea, to set up killer hands for Sauron or Smaug; given Enquea's recycling skill you may set up good Shadow-heavy draw decks for the latter game.
[2] • Ulaire Otsea, Revived [Wraith]
Minion • Nazgul
Strength 9 Vitality 2 Site 5.
Fierce. You may remove [2] to play this minion from your discard pile.
Other Nazgûl are twilight cost -1 and strength +1.
Shadow: Discard an Orc from play to draw 1 card for each [Wraith] or [Sauron] minion you spot.
So we would have nine Nazgul resurrecting over and over again, like in the movie.
A quick summary:
- 2x Witch King: Adds damage. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 2x Toldea: Adds strength. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 2x Attea: Attempts to discard the White Council. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 2x Enquea: Recycles Shadow cards (when an Orc gets discarded).
- 2x Cantea: Reduces twilight cost. Adds twilight or draws cards (when an Orc gets discarded).
- 2x Nelya: Takes a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card from discard. Allows the White Council to fight.
- 1x Nertea: Retrieves a chosen Nazgul (by discarding himself and an Orc). Does combo with Enquea.
- 1x Lemenya: Adds twilight. Allows the White Council to fight. Does combo with Enquea and Cantea.
- 1x Otsea: Reduces twilight cost and increases strength to everyone else. Draws cards in Shadow phase. Does combo with Enquea and Cantea.
When I was working on the first ideas about the Nazgul minions, I thought of giving them different subtitles like Summoned Wraith, Summoned Sorcerer, Summoned King, Lord, Servant, Lackey, Shadow, Specter, Undead, Ringbearer...
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Sorry I'm making all the cards from the FP packs + all the modifications of the previous cards.
I will answer later on these new packs.
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Sorry I'm making all the cards from the FP packs + all the modifications of the previous cards.
I will answer later on these new packs.
That's OK.
About a thing you said some time ago...
Most of the cards is fixed now, I think we have all the components of the movies and the book, no?
Besides the Morgul Blade (which doesn't appear in the book and has little importance in the movies), there's at least one element missing: The Black Arrow. What should be removed in order to add it, if that's the case?
I know you made Bard absorb the text of the previous Black Arrow, but... actually there is a function that might be very important to add. Given the new Smaug culture, he will start appearing much sooner and more frequently, and will reappear even after being killed. So there's a lack of a mechanism to remove Smaug from the game, and that's the role Tolkien gave to the Black Arrow. Here's my try:
[2] •The Black Arrow [Dale]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be Bard.
If Smaug is killed by a special ability involving Bard, remove him from the game.
Skirmish: Exert Bard to wound a minion skirmishing a [Dale] man.
I really believe there will be more often than not the need to remove Smaug's reappearances after being rightfully killed. But what can be removed?
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I just replace the Athelas in the Mirkwood pack by the Emeralds of Girion, and I will add the Black Arrow in the Esgaroth pack.
Athelas : Cost (1). [Dale] Possession • Support Area. Fellowship: Spot an Elf and discard this possession to heal a companion and discard a Shadow condition.
• Black Arrow : Cost (2). [Dale] Possession • Ranged Weapon. Strength +1. Bearer must be Bard. If Smaug is killed by a special ability involving Bard, remove him from the game. Skirmish: Exert Bard to wound a minion skirimishing a [Dale] man.
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Great, thank you! Elrond and Ancient Knowledge can replace Athelas' usefulness.
The idea of Athelas was to show the healing side of Tauriel. She might have added a second sentence with something like "Regroup: Exert Tauriel to heal a Dwarf (or to discard a Shadow condition borne by a Dwarf)" or so, considering she can't heal herself like Elrond does. That's not necessary, though it would be useful. Things look good as they are now. :up:
The Esgaroth Pack looked a bit overpowered with Emeralds of Girion: Elrond healing 2 wounds per turn from the Volunteers, Bain or Bard. Or from The Master, providing a huge and cost-free cycling machine. Now it's better I think. The Emeralds can serve in the Mirwood Pack to either heal Bard, or to allow Thranduil to skirmish... :up:
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Thank you for your comments.
I made all the FP cards and more ^^.
Enjoy ;).
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:o Awesome my friend! ;D
These cards look so beautiful! =D>
CHEERS!
I'll comment some of them tomorrow.
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My friend, the work looks very professional! :up: Still has a small bunch of little text errors, so I hope this helps:
Main Deck:
- Watchful Orc: "... each site on the adventure path gains..." is wrong, it should be "gain" instead. See Thorin's Harp as an example.
- Goblin Footman still doesn't include artifacts.
Mirkwood Pack:
- Elf Army: A little mistake at the end of this sentence, with punctuation: "...in archery fire and skirmishes until the regroup phase. ."
Thorin Pack:
- Great Barricade: Lacks the "fortification" keyword.
- The Arkenstone: "Take a card stacked here into your hand." Or "into hand".
- Oakenshield: In the lore text, lacks a space between the comma and "wielding". "rent,wielding".
- Mithril Coat: Not a mistake but a possibility. If you make the first and second lines ("Bearer must..." and "Each minion...") join together as one, you'd free a line that might be used for lore text. Something like "Cast off your old coat and put on this!", as Thorin says in the book.
I found these 3 quotes from the Hobbit book regarding the Mithril Coat, if you wish to take a look:
[The] talk turned to the great hoard [of Smaug] itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below [the Lonely Mountain]:... coats of mail gilded and silvered and impenetrable; the necklace of Girion, Lord of Dale, made of five hundred emeralds green as grass, which he gave for the arming of his eldest son in a coat of dwarf-linked rings the like of which had never been made before, for it was wrought of pure silver to the power and strength of triple steel.
The Hobbit, Ch 12, Inside Information
'Mr. Baggins!' [Thorin] cried. 'Here is the first payment of your reward! Cast off your old coat and put on this!'
With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail, wrought for some young elf-prince long ago. It was of silver-steel which the elves call mithril, and with it went a belt of pearls and crystals. A light helm of figured leather, strengthened beneath with hoops of steel, and studded about the brim with white gems, was set upon the hobbit's head.
'I feel magnificent,' he thought; 'but I expect I look rather absurd. How they would laugh on the Hill at home. Still I wish there was a looking-glass handy!'
The Hobbit, Ch 12, Not At Home
"Bilbo Baggins!" [the Elvenking] said. "You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf-princes than many that have looked more comely in it. But I wonder if Thorin Oakenshield will see it so. I have more knowledge of dwarves in general than you have perhaps. I advise you to remain with us, and here you shall be honoured and thrice welcome."
The Hobbit, Ch 16, A Thief in the Night
Esgaroth Pack:
- Black Arrow: "If Smaug is killed by a Bard's special ability" is slightly but importantly different than "...killed by a special ability involving Bard": the first is triggered only by Bard's regroup ability and excudes the Black Arrow's skirmish one, while the latter includes each ability which spots or exerts Bard (NOT Iron-forged weapon). The Black Arrow's skirmish ability is much weaker than the regroup one, and requires Smaug to be skirmishing a Man, which may not happen often; that is meant to prevent the FP player from killing Smaug too easily before he deals his damage. But if that happened, I think the Black Arrow shold still remove Smaug from the game. If you support that idea, the second option should be used.
Wizard Pack:
- Wizard Staff: Not an error, but a great change here! An Artifact, and vitality +1 instead of strength bonus. Nice!
- The Eagles Are Coming: This one lack the part that allows an ally to fight. I believe you thought it was too much text, and that's a good possibility as the current version consists of 5 lines. But if we remove an unnecessary word like Dwarf in "Dwarf companion" (the Eagles rescued Gandalf and Bilbo too), and if we use the first line with more text than just "Spell" (just like Saruman's Snows and other [Isengard] spells do), the resulting version might have 6 lines and still have a remaining line for lore text.
I believe it's important to make Radagast a fighter in moments of need, as every other Pack has some ally fighting support (except Thráin, which has strong items); even Bilbo has Skillful Negociator (for Bard and Elrond).
- Current Version:
[3] Eagles Are Coming [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Spell.
Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower
from your draw deck or discard pile
and attach it to a Dwarf companion
(without paying the aid cost).
- Proposal:
[3] The Eagles Are Coming [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Spell. Exert Gandalf to either play a [Gandalf]
follower from your draw deck or discard
pile and attach it to a companion (without
paying the aid cost), or to allow a [Gandalf] ally
to participate in skirmishes until the
regroup phase.
That's all.
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Thank you a lot for all your precious work. I change most of the the cards according with your corrections.
- Mithril Coat : In LOTR TCG, all the "bearer" game text is always in a first independant line + some sentences corresponding to abilities "when you play..."
- Watchful Orc : I change it, I also remove "underground", which is not use.
- Black Arrow : I only wanted the regroup ability as the "removing Smaug" ability. It's more simple to understand, I change the text to be more clear. Otherwise, it could be a real NPE against a player playing the Smaug Shadow.
- Eagles Are Coming : In Saruman Snows and others spells, the other costs of the cards are on the first line. But there are no other cost for an event. With the [Gandalf] ally ability, the text of the card is too dense. I think this event could be more about the Eagles rescue at the Wooded Cliff. I remove the [Dwarf] companion part.
Thank you!
PS : I also change the Gollum text, it was too easy to win skirmishes against Bilbo.
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Thank you a lot for all your precious work. I change most of the the cards according with your corrections.
It has been an honour, my friend!
Agree with your thoughts about Black Arrow and Eagles Are Coming. Simplicity is of vital importance, and the new text for Black Arrow is much clearer; your reasoning about the regroup phase is actually very good as Smaug should always deal some skirmish trouble, and he might be exhausted by Kili and Gandalf's Dawn Take You All. Or by losing the first skirmish to Thorin bearing Orcrist and Bombur.
But I believe the ally reinforcement in the Wizard Pack is very important, and JUST PERHAPS, might be added to Wizard Staff as an ability: "Maneuver: Exert bearer twice to make him strength +3 and allow him to participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase." Useful too with Gandalf and Saruman...
About the Mithril Coat, that's a general rule about items but there are some exceptions: Well-Crafted Armor being the most notable, which includes its most important sentence in the same line as "bearer must be", and even starting that sentence with the word "each" (just like your version of Mithril Coat). I believe that general conventional rule was made to give beauty, and the idea of adding a lore text is meant to do just the same (but using story flavour instead of graphic aesthetics)...
Three versions of Anduril/Narsil have the damage bonus in the first paragraph, after "bearer must be": Flame of the West, Sword That Was Broken and Forged By Telchar. Anyway, it's just a matter of beauty/lore and not one of gameplay.
In regards of Gollum, it's a good change because Bilbo won't have as much support as Frodo has in LOTR (Bilbo starts with 3 strength instead of 4). But given Gollum's new text doesn't accord with 5R25 Stinker, perhaps it's a good idea to give him a new subtitle to match his role and lore in the Hobbit book: something like "Fond of Riddles" or "Small Slimy Creature".
PS: I was wondering about Elrond's self-healing text and his role as host of the White Council meeting at Rivendell. "At the start of each of your turns, you may heal once an ally whose home site is 3 (or heal Elrond twice)." That way, Galadriel and Saruman might get some optional healing.
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Unfortunately, the text of the Wizard Staff will be too dense and not clear. And the "spell search" ability is really useful.
For the [Gondor] Blades, the "Each time" ability is at a new line. For Well-Crafted Armor, I think it's a mistake, like the "Orc" text of Orkish Invader, Black Land Commander... (cards from sets 15 and more). I prefer to keep a card easy to play (the text of Mithril Coat is long).
Ok I just change Elrond and Gollum's subtitle.
Thank you !!
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Unfortunately, the text of the Wizard Staff will be too dense and not clear. And the "spell search" ability is really useful.
I believe the spell searching action in the Wizard Staff is indeed very important. But there are only 2 spells out of 4 [Gandalf] events in the Main deck (both are offensive: Take Up Arms and Dawn Take You All), while the Wizard and White Council Packs provide 2 more spells and 1 non-spell [Gandalf] event. I feel the best way of using the potential of Wizard Staff is by playing Balin in the early game. Why is it unique? There are 3 staves in the movies, and Gandalf's staff is seen with Radagast's in a scene of An Unexpected Jouney, and with Saruman's in another. With only 2 copies in the Wizard Pack, it might not be a great unbalance even if a single player grabs both of them.
I would like the Staff to search for more than only offensive tricks, but that might be very overpowered with Balin recycling tricks like A Wizard Is Never Late and He Gives Me Courage. It still has some space for a small, simple skill. What about "Skirmish: Exert bearer to make him strenght +2"? Or "Regroup: Exert bearer twice to heal a companion" (showing Radagast and Gandalf's healing skills; remember the Hedgehog, and Thorin at the Carrock)?
In respect of He Gives Me Courage, the text refers to Elrond while the picture shows Galadriel... What if it gets changed to "(or 2 doubts if you can also spot Galadriel or Elrond)"?
About Saruman, I really like the defender bonus to Gandalf as it can be interpreted as a reflect of his cunning ways to deal with multiple troubles with a single move (including his long-envied rival: "let Gandalf face them, and if his strength is not enough to match his foolhardy self-commanded tasks, and let's say, he DIES... well, even better for me!"). But besides that part he looks like a poorman's version of Radagast's skill to recover Gandalf. I mean, at Dol Guldur Elrond defeats the Nazgul very fast and skillfully but only one at a time, while Saruman is seen facing 3 or 4 of them at the same time as if he was taking a walk in the park!
Saruman must have been a great threat to the Nine Nazgul, as he was much more powerful than Gandalf the Grey who fought the Nine alone at Amon Sûl and survived. He also looked very harmful at Dol Guldur, damaging the fortress itself where they fought. And the card has enough spare room for a short additional skill, something like "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a [Gandalf] or [Elven] character strength +2 and damage +1". Paired with Galadriel's skirmish ability, it might help to fight Nazgul (countering Danger Wrapped in Shadows) and even dispatch them at the cost of exhausting the White Council.
Ok I just change Elrond and Gollum's subtitle.
Thank you !!
:up:
EDIT: Added some new ideas and arguments.
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I agree with the non-unicity of the Wizard Staff, but the power is really huge. And I think only "agressive" events must be Spells, otherwise we could have an easy set up or an easy way to remove massive number of doubts with Staff+Balin.
The text of the Staff will be to dense with more text. It's ok like this.
I let only Elrond now on He Gives Me Courage. But I will probably change after the next paytest.
This ability of Saruman is too strong. Do you want to remove the ability of playing Gandalf back from the discard pile ? In order to have clear text cards, no more than one active ability+one passive ability per card is a rule ;).
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I agree with the non-unicity of the Wizard Staff, but the power is really huge. And I think only "agressive" events must be Spells, otherwise we could have an easy set up or an easy way to remove massive number of doubts with Staff+Balin.
The text of the Staff will be to dense with more text. It's ok like this.
I let only Elrond now on He Gives Me Courage. But I will probably change after the next paytest.
Ok about that. The Wizard Staff is indeed very powerful. I just felt the lack of a healing skill for the two humble Wizards, and thought the addition of a short ability wouldn't hurt too much... In the first movie we can see Radagast healing "Sebastian" the hedgehog with his magic, and at the end we see Gandalf too healing Thorin from battle wounds and unconsciousness...
Though not depicted by Decipher or by Peter Jackson in LOTR, Gandalf the Grey was indeed a great healer: he and Elrond healed Frodo from the Morgul Blade wounds and the Black Breath (after Elrond removed the Blade Tip), and his friendship with the Lord of the Eagles was based on an arrow wound he cured. They only show Gandalf the White healing Théoden from madness, but that was actually mental relief...
This ability of Saruman is too strong. Do you want to remove the ability of playing Gandalf back from the discard pile ?
That's right, as Saruman shouldn't really reincorporate Gandalf to the Quest of Erebor; to counter Gandalf's discarding the FP player should use AWINL, being the only exception the Wizard Pack. In the book Gandalf isn't captured, doesn't need help and retuns by himself; in the movies Radagast AND Galadriel release him... But Galadriel has enough abilities.
The skirmish ability is meant to be very strong, but it's use can be restrained in the same way as Galadriel's: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a [Gandalf] or [Elven] character strength +2 and damage +1". Galadriel's and Saruman's skills sharing the same resource, thus both skills won't be abused in the same turn. Or at least the chances will be minimal.
In order to have clear text cards, no more than one active ability+one passive ability per card is a rule ;).
Agree with that one, more or less: we must keep in mind that general rules might have some reasonable exceptions. Like the [Dwarven] Arkenstone or Smaug's Awakening: each has 2 active abilities but those are different parts of the same function. And others like Emeralds of Girion and Twisted Gold of Dragon: 2 active and 2 passive abilities, respectively...
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Ok, I agree that Saruman can be a bit changed. An ability using the same ressource as Galadriel is a great idea, but I think a different phase ability would be great. It's a bit redundant with Galadriel now, any idea ?
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Saruman just won't remove twilight, wounds nor doubts. He might discard Shadow items and conditions, but that may make him overpowered like Lady Redeemed. Interesting options are wound prevention (Intimidate) and exertion wound tokens prevention (Strength of Spirit) to [Gandalf] and [Elven] characters, and recovering a [Gandalf] event just played into hand (Into Dark Tunnels). Apart from that, maybe direct exertions to minions. But the strenght and damage of his power were his resources once the fight had started. And strength and damage addition will be extremely important to the White Council.
Those skirmish actions are indeed very different (keeping in mind skirmishes are always about surviving or killing). The White Council will be composed of strength 8 allies at best, and given the abundance of Shadow pumps (Danger Wrapped, 3x Anger, Toldea) a strength addition will be much more important than a strength reduction to the other side; just look at Galadriel: strength 3, and her only help will come from her own exertions (Former Herald and her ability) besides the Gathering of the Three Rings. She WILL need strength support and the cost must be payed by another one, or else she will be overwhelmed or killed by a single wound. Sauron will take advantage of that point and assing a heavy Nazgul to her. "Are you in need of assistance, my lady?"
Same goes for Gandalf, Elrond and Saruman himself. Strength 8 is easily overwhelmed if Toldea or Danger Wrapped in Shadows are present, and will be present very often, besides 3x Anger. Gandalf will often face beasts like Trolls, Wargriders, and Sauron or Smaug themselves. The defender bonus for Gandalf will be of more utility if he has some strength support. Strenght +2 is very useful but not abusive at all.
The damage bonus is very important too. Many strong minions are fierce (everyone in Dol Guldur), and the strength reduction will last only for the first skirmish and they won't be restrained in the second; Galadriel can exert only twice. There is a great need to kill them before there is a second skirmish, and the only option besides damage is a very fragile situation called overwhelming; Danger Wrapped in Shadows will make sure that overwhelming won't happen. Dwarves will have damage bonuses but Sauron can and will assign Nazgul to the White Council (or weak companions) to get rid of their tricks (and weaken Gandalf too)...
The pumps provided to both sides will make the Battle at Dol Guldur very amusing. The idea reminds me the "Duel of Wizards" at Orthanc in FOTR. I wish Decipher had made the pump part of Saruman's Ambition usable by any [Isengard] minion, and Saruman's Staff a card of set 3 instead of 4, but nope, they made him an awful fighter instead... Here we have a good chance to depict Saruman as a towering and frightening foe.
You still haven't said anything of the points I made about The Nazgul shadow. You have been busy, I know, but I believe that should be the next step by now.
I know this has nothing to do here, but Radagast doesn't have a passive text and was Gandalf's closest confident and ally. Saruman gives him a defender bonus, Galadriel heals him and Elrond heals everyone. I think a short text like "Gandalf is strength +1" might be added to Radagast if there is room...
Another loose idea: if Saruman won't replay Gandalf from discard (and he shouldn't), and moreover if Gandalf was Jailed when they arrived, Former Herald shouldn't need to spot Gandalf really...
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Ok, it's a good idea to give to all "Wises" (except Elrond who heal the others) a different ability for Gandalf.
I will change Radagast and Saruman, in your way, after our playtest thursday ;).
Tell me if you see another problem. I will print the final cards (except for the new Shadows packs) after this playtest.
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Ok, it's a good idea to give to all "Wises" (except Elrond who heal the others) a different ability for Gandalf.
I will change Radagast and Saruman, in your way, after our playtest thursday ;).
That's the idea, to show a direct support from his fellows of the White Council ;). What if you add to the Wise a new Wise unloaded keyword (like Ranger or Knight distinguishes some [Gondor] guys)? The White Council were also called "The Wise": Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Elrond and Galadriel would use it, and that would distinguish Wise Elves from common ones like Thranduil or his son. And would reduce greatly the length of the text of Sauron or those Nazgul that allow the White Council to fight.
Cards that need to spot or exert a "Wizard or Elf" might be changed to spot or exert a wise. Former Herald might say "Exert a wise ally. Until the regroup phase, that ally is strength +3 and participates in skirmishes", and would also include Radagast, in the rare case those 2 packs meet if 4 or more players play. Or even "Exert a wise. Until the regroup phase, that character is strength +3 and..." to pump Gandalf himself.
Tell me if you see another problem. I will print the final cards (except for the new Shadows packs) after this playtest.
- Narya: it's response action is helpful at site 5 but I don't see anything else that might discard him, besides himself if you pick randomly Friend of Thorin (great combo!); Leader of the Company can't use that ability at all. It still has plenty of room for a passive skill. What about "At the start of each of your turns, you may draw a card"? Like the Grey Pilgrim, the version that depicts best Gandalf as a wanderer...
- Eagles Are Coming: Looks good in you haven't played your 2 [Gandalf] followers, but after that it's completely useless. But I have an idea to allow it to attach followers already in play. It's clear and simple, and might use only 1 line more than the current version. I made a cheap version with MS Paint (really!), see below and laugh if you want to :lol::
[3] Eagles Are Coming [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver or Skirmish
Spell.
Exert Gandalf to play a [Gandalf] follower from your draw deck or discard pile. You may then attach a [Gandalf] follower to a companion (without paying the aid cost).
If there are no followers to play, the rest of the text still aplies. That way, you may use Gwaihir twice at the same site, or Beorn twice (nice with Take Up Arms). As a skirmish action, preserves the surprise factor of skirmish events. Beorn might pick this event back and help in repeated skirmishes like the frightening bear of the book, as far as he (and his bearer) wins his skirmish AND Gandalf has vitality to keep exerting (but watch out with the twilight!).
I don't see any other problem by now, besides the fact Former Herald shouldn't require to spot Gandalf as said before. Well, there is one: actually the Lord of the Eagles in The Hobbit was a different character than Gwaihir in LOTR, but I'd prefer Tolkien made them the same Eagle. Let it as it is!
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I noticed you modified Sauron's text. "Allies whose home site is 3 may be assigned to skirmish [Sauron] or [Wraith] minions". If you support the wise keyword, that would be instead "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish [Sauron] or [Wraith] minions". Much shorter. The way it's written by now doesn't allow Radagast to fight the Witch King (which happened in the movie), 'cause his home site is not 3 but 5. Nor the Necromancer, which almost happened (let's say, he exerted to prevent that)...
I'm glad Thranduil or Tauriel won't fight them with your text, but I believe Radagast should, and would be way shorter with the new keyword. Sauron's assignment ability would be much shorter too: "Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign another minion to a [Dwarven] companion or a wise character. That character may exert to prevent this."
Elrond's passive ability may be shorter too: "At the start of each of your turns, you may heal a wise ally (or heal Elrond twice)". Same with Galadriel "... strength -3 (or -6 if a wise character is skirmishing that minion)". Saruman: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a wise character strength +2 and damage +1". I know "Wise" is not a substantive but an adjective, but the same goes with "Valiant"...
I was thinking about Thráin and Sauron. Sauron killed Thráin in the movie, but the most he can do here to a follower is to discard him/her. He should have a chance to get rid of followers, moreover of Thráin as he plays new artifacts from draw deck . The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór can discard artifacts... I propose the following: "Maneuver: Exert Sauron twice to discard a Free Peoples artifact or follower (limit once)". As a maneuver action, the Shadow player can selectively discard a follower already attached, instead of one that won't be used...
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Tell me if you see another problem. I will print the final cards (except for the new Shadows packs) after this playtest.
Found another possible problem. This case is about Gandalf, The Grey Wizard's fellowship ability. "Fellowship: Add 2 doubts to play a possession or a Dwarf companion from your draw deck or discard pile." Prior to the artifact templates every item was a possession, but now most items are artifacts. And even worse: there are 4 artifacts in the Main Deck, but not a single possession. Which leaves only FP Packs as source of them.
But there are some Packs which don't have possessions: Wizard, White Council and Mirkwood. Dain Pack has 1, while Thorin Pack has 3 and every other has 2 (Bilbo, Esgaroth and Thráin). Nonetheless, each FP Pack provides at least 1 possession OR artifact.
If you want to preserve the original function of The Grey Wizard, expand it to "possession, artifact or Dwarven companion...". If you think the new [Dwarven] artifacts are too powerful to pull them from the start, you may specify "non- [Dwarven] artifact" instead of just "artifact" (3 of 4 Main Deck artifacts are non- [Dwarven]). There is still the option of not changing anything, considering that version of our beloved grumpy-grandfather Wizard costs only [2] and wounds a minion when playing a [Gandalf] event (did somebody say "burning fir cones"? ;)). But in my opinion it should be changed to at least non- [Dwarven] artifacts.
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Ok thank you for all your comments.
We will speak with the other players about your ideas (mostly about the "Wise" passive keyword). I will let you know what we will change.
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Great! Here's a summary of my points:
- 'Wise' keyword.
- Eagles Are Coming as a Maneuver/Skirmish event.
- Narya drawing 1 per turn.
- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór discarding a follower.
- Update The Grey Wizard to play artifacts too (given the artifact templates).
- Former Herald not needing Gandalf.
Have a nice meeting sir, you and your buddies!
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Thank you for your summary.
I will not have internet this week-end, I will answer all the details of the next updates next week ;).
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Hey Durin's Heir,
I update the first post with all the possible next updates. Tell me what you think about it.
We think Saruman must still be able to bring back Gandalf in the fight.
Narya is really powerful without an additional text.
Thank you a lot.
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You're welcome my friend! I like most changes:
- The "Wise" keyword will shorten for good many gametext here and there! That will be very important with Sauron and the Nazgul. GREAT!
- The Grey Wizard seems better now costing 4 and playing artifacts. He shouldn't really play the Black Arrow, the Oakenshield or some lesser weaponry...
- Legolas' upgrade at forest/river makes much sense. It can punish the Shadow player when turning sites into forest to play Spiders.
- same goes with Spider's Nest. But I'd change the name to "Spiders' Nest" (plural form). Or just leave it as Spider Nest (no apostrophe).
- Gollum's assignment ability is a smart way of dealing with your rule of a max of 1 active and 1 passive abilities. Besides, exerting him 3 times to make him a base strength 8 minion was too powerful against Bilbo.
- Thrór's Key looks much better! Looks now more like an indispensable decive for the Quest, as is in the book/movies.
- Oakenshield as a shield is good (a good close fighting shield), as Thorin bears it with some Dwarven Bracers below. That allows to add a version of Dwarven Bracers to an Extension Set and play both on Thorin if chances meet...
- Thráin playing items on solely bearer seems more logical, as it turns the item into a price for winning bearer's skirmish.
A couple of things to consider:
- Watchful Orc: Its passive ability changes each site on the adventure path, BUT that affects each site present right now (see Deft in Their Movements*). Which means, if you choose "mountain" to play Smaug and then you change the current site to a non-mountain of yours, the new site doesn't become a mountain by Watchful Orc's effect and Smaug would be discarded if played.... I think it's ok, as it limits that powerful Orc a bit.
*Ruling about Deft in Their Movements: http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/comprehensive_rules_4-0
"Deft in Their Movements (Regroup: “Spot 2 Hobbits to make each site’s Shadow number –2 until the end of the turn.”) affects only sites that are in play when it is played."
- Saruman & Radagast: There's a possible loop with Saruman and Radagast to make the move limit potentially infinite, if those packs happen to meet: discard Gandalf with Saruman and replay him with Radagast, to make the move limit +1 each time, costing Gandalf's twilight cost and allowing a Shadow player to draw 2. It's not so powerful given the high twilight and Shadow drawing cost, but if you want to prevent it you can change Saruman's text from "discard a Wise character" to "discard a Wise character (except Gandalf)". EDIT: Actually thst combo is quite powerful, if happens that your opponent runs out of draw deck...
Some ideas:
- Thrór's Map looks a bit weak: given the omnipresence of Watchful Orc it's effect won't be so important, moreover with site effects in maneuver or other phases than Fellowship or Shadow. Unless Thrór's Map specifies something like "That site cannot be replaced until the end of the turn." Besides, Thrór's Map was used during the whole travel to Erebor, that is, at least until site 7, and the way it is by now is just usable once. Elrond might be involved (he did read the signs): "Exert 2 dwarves (or Elrond twice) or discard this possession to play the fellowship's next site" or so...
- Narya: I agree that +1 vitality and keeping Gandalf at 5 is good power for a single card. I just saw the possibility of adding a passive text, as with Leader of the Company or after site 5 won't do anything else than giving +1 vitality. Maybe something powerful and clever but costly like "Each time you play a [Gandalf] event, you may exert Gandalf twice to place than event in your hand instead of your discard pile" (Into Dark Tunnels), or so...
- Baïn: I wonder if his healing skill is really necessary, given The Master will heal Bard too. If you want to make Bard skirmish more often, let's say, more than twice per game, then Baïn should heal himself, or should heal any [Dale] man instead of only Bard... Consider the Esgaroth Pack won't have Emeralds of Girion to heal [Dale] men.
- Eagles Are Coming: I feel the Great Eagles should be able to help the Company more than once in the same site, it would fit better with the book/movie. You might change it to a "Maneuver or Skirmish" event, and change "You may attach a [Gandalf] follower to a companion" to "You may attach a [Gandalf] follower from your support area to a companion". That's very different from the previous version I proposed: with the new proposal you won't attach Beorn to different companions because he won't return to the support area, only Gwaihir can do that. Besides, as a Skirmish event it preserves the surprise factor (just watch again Azog's face at Ravenhill when he saw the Eagles arriving!).
- Beorn: He NEEDS to give damage +1. Just rewatch the last movie... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_G7mQ-OXTs He's just AWESOME.
- Saruman: I agree with the necessity of replaying Gandalf from discard, that's good. But too I wonder if you tested the new FP Packs against the new Beatdown Pack (Sauron/Nazgul/Smaug)... That is really important as it will determine the structure of the Shadow to be balanced by the FP. More concretely, the points I made with Saruman will be extremely important once the Sauron and Nazgul Packs arrive: Galadriel and The White Council (who will be assigned by Sauron) will need strength support to win skirmishes or not being killed, and damage addition to kill minions; the strength bonus must be payed by anyone but Galadried (or she'll be killed).
How can we keep both abilities amongst the White Council? I think Saruman should be another exception to your rule of only 1 active skill (as Emeralds of Girion and the [Dwarven] Arkenstone are). His 2 skills are very short, and the skirmish ability is short too (even shorter given the Wise keyword), so that's very posible.
Apart from that, I'd change his lore text to "Are you in need of assistance, my Lady?" (if there is one).
- Galadriel: Her skirmish skill might be changed to depend on the total of Wise characters you spot; it would give a stronger feeling of unity amongst the White Council: "Skirmish: Exert Galadriel and discard a Shadow card from hand to make a minion strength -2 (or -1 for each Wise character you spot, if a Wise character is skirmishing that minion)". From -2 to -4, or -5 if Radagast too joins the party. Remeber her vitality and strength are quite limited.
Galadriel might heal any Wise character instead of only Gandalf, that way she would be able to heal herself and have more chances of surviving.
That's all by now. Have a nice day sir!
EDIT: A last idea... but actually not an important idea. What if Gandalf, The Grey Wizard is called only "Gandalf, The Grey"? It would differ with the FOTR version 1P364, and would fit better too with the subtitles of the other 2 Wizards here: Saruman is "The White" and not "The White Wizard", Radagast is "The Brown" instead of "The Brown Wizard". I said it was a nonsense...
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Thank you a lot for your ideas, here are some changes:
- Gandalf, The Grey the (4) cost is an error, he will still cost (2) since he can't easily play companions from the draw deck like the others Gandalf. I also change the subtitle to "The Grey".
- Oakenshield The minion archery total is -1. (the text was too long)
- Spider Nest Another mistake :(, I write it to fast. I will not change the name ;).
- Watchful Orc: You are absolutely right, I just change the text :
When you play this minion, you may play the fellowship's next site. Shadow: Exert this minion twice to make each site on the adventure path gains battleground, mountain, forest or underground until the end of the turn.
- Saruman & Radagast: Ok I just change Saruman :
Fellowship or Regroup: Discard a Wise ally to play Gandalf from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a [Wraith] minion strength -2.
- Thrór's Map Ok I just change it with your text.
- Narya: I think the text is powerful enough. All the +1 Vitality Rings from LOTR TCG have only one ability.
- Baïn: Bard is the center of all the Esgaroth Pack and Narzug can be a real pain against this deck and Baïn is only related to Bard. I will upgrade Baïn by healing Bard twice now.
- Eagles Are Coming: The players think that in Skirmish, the event will be far too powerful. I change the text.
- Beorn: There will be too much sentences. I think the card is powerful, but balanced now.
- Galadriel: I change it, but with the previous version. I think 3 will be the average number of Wise characters.
I also add these changes:
- • Mithril Coat : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Artifact • Armor. Bearer must be Bilbo. Each minion skirmishing bearer loses all damage bonuses. Response: If a skirmish event is played during a a skimish involving Bilbo, exert him twice to cancel that event.
- • Great Barricade : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Possession • Support Area. Fortification. To play, exert a [Dwarven] companion. If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, discard this possession. At sites 7 and 8, each minion skirmishing a Dwarf companion is strength -3.
- Goblin Sneak : cost (1). [Moria] Minion. When you play this minion, you may place an Orc (or 2 Orcs at an underground site) from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
- • Burglar's Contract : Cost (1). [Shire] Possession. Skirmish : Add a doubt and exert Bilbo to make another companion strength +2 (limit +4).
- Site 2 : The Troll Hoard. New image (too dark).
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- Gandalf, The Grey. :up:
- Spider Nest. :up:
- Great Barricade. :up: This change can allow Dwalin to face many minions at once without too much risk.
- Goblin Sneak. :up: This will bring importance to using Watchful Orc to induce the underground keyword.
- The Troll Hoard. :up: Better name.
- Watchful Orc. :up: I really like your new version! As it doesn't change the current but the next site, the power of Thrór's Map doesn't get absobed by merely playing this Orc from hand or discard pile (that will be very important to new sites in the Extensions, like The Forges of Erebor). Great! It lacks the "(replacing opponent's site if necessary)" part, and it must say "gain" instead of its plural form (Thorin's Harp).
- Thrór's Map. :up: While the Orcs have their Watchful Orc, Thráin's Pack can provide Thrór's Map, and a very interesting struggle to get the best sites of each player into the sitepath may begin. The power of the sitepath is a point I love in this Draft Game my friend.
- Former Herald: :up: Except for the little mistake in the text: "Exert a Wise ally to make him..." What about Galadriel? It should be "to make that ally". Besides that, great.
Things I would change or rethink:
- Mithril Coat: It's a good ability to reduce the archery by 1, Narzug will be present in each Shadow that wants to have it. But we cannot counter that huge archery wounding of Bolg's Specialized Archers with only 1 shield/armor, and moreover considering it's a Pack that can be chosen only randomly. The discussion about the new Swarm Pack was prorogued due to the changes and improvement in the FP Packs, and I was aiming to end the details about the last Pack to be done in the Beatdown Pack: we still haven't defined the last details with The Nazgul and their general strategy. But one thing is very clear about Bolg's Archers: there isn't a single way to counter that massive archery wounding by the FP player. In LOTR TCG there are 3 options basically: massive healing (Hobbit Hospital, Elrond HtGG, Might of Numenor...), wound prevention (Isildur's Bane...) and shields. And none of those are present here (happily, massive healing would be too much). Let me propose something, add to each optional ability that adds archery (be it active or passive) an option to the FP player to do instead: Bolg's "Archery: Discard an Orc to make the minion archery total +1. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt instead." So it would end as an archery/corruption Shadow. Or Bolg's "At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player must discard a card from hand or wound an unwounded companion for each other [Gundabad] archer you spot"; archery/discarding Shadow. Or Orkish Pursuer's "Archery: Exert this minion and another Orc archer to make the minion archery total +1. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower instead". But always giving the option to prevent those massive wounds.
Another important point is limit. If no option is given to the FP player, then "(limit once)" or "(limit twice)" should be established. The way it is by now, the Shadow Archers are clearly overpowered. And a simple Mithril Coat just won't stop them...
- Saruman: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a [Wraith] minion strength -2" is not enough to counter the points I mentioned. +2 strength to Galadriel equals to -4 to a minion trying to overwhelm her. And the damage bonus will be much necessary... I hope "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a Wise character strength +2 and damage +1" is not too long, and it leaves some room to the lore text.
- Narya: It's true that each Vitality +1 Ring of Power provides only one ability, but the single ability in each of those Rings, either passive or active may be used at any site, while the skill of your version of Narya is useful only when moving to site 5. That's my point here, it should be a spiritual power enhancer instead of only a device to keep along with the Company...
The "Into Dark Tunnels" ability proposed is meant to represent an enhancement to the reach of Gandalf's willpower: he might strain himself to push his actions even further, be it calling reinforcements (Eagles Are Coming, Former Herald or A Wizard Is Never Late), relieving the heart of a "fellow conspirator" (He Gives Me Courage), struggling against an evil spirit (Take Up Arms or Gathering of the Three Rings) or plainly harming the evil forces directly (Dawn Take You All!). But note the high cost of that ability (2 exertions), that makes hard to pull once again those events that require one exertion (Eagles Are Coming), and those that need two exertions are almost impossible to reinforce (to play Dawn Take You All, recover it, and play it again you would need 6 exertions: fully healed Gandalf + Narya, + 2x Lore of Imladris)...
The way the Rings of Power (and the Palantiri) rendered their strongest powers to their bearers was precisely that way: straining your spirit towards domination of the Ring or Palantir (just like an Iron Mace or a War Hammer gives its battle strenght only to those that can carry it). Besides Denethor and Aragorn, very few Men had the strength to force those devices to their will, as did the spirit of a Maia, a High-Elf or a stubborn Dwarf. Frodo only once used a slight part of The One's power to tame Smeagol; Halflings didn't have intentions to dominate power nor persons but that was actually his salvation... and the salvation of the whole Middle-Earth.
It's a real shame Decipher didn't use the ability of Into Dark Tunnels in a support card (ally, artifact/possession, condition...). As an event, recycling another event means the problem of clogging the hand. And most Gandalf events require exertions, so as an event it should have said "spot Gandalf" or "exert Gandalf" once...
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- Oakenshield: The way it is depicted in both the 1st movie and the books, the Oakenshield was a close fighting shield meant to stop the strikes of Thorin's foes. I don't see the archery reduction as something that must be present in it, and if that were the case, it shouldn't replace the close fighting part. Both the strength denial to minions and the response action are part of that concept...
- Eagles Are Coming: The players think that in Skirmish, the event will be far too powerful. I change the text.
It won't be more powerful than Take Up Arms which gives -3 to a minion; this one would add +2 with Beorn or +1 with Gwaihir. It costs an exertion by the way. Beorn can recover a [Gandalf] skirmish event like Take Up Arms or Eagles Are Coming if he wins his skirmish, but as it says "You may attach a [Gandalf] follower from your support area to a companion", only Gwaihir might be used by more than 1 companion per site; Beorn won't return to the support area. The main threat is cancelling additional skirmishes against Wargriders, but remember this is an event and not a support area card, AND Wargriders are fierce.
- Beorn: Though Beorn's text won't be saturated by adding "Bearer is damage +1", I agree he might be too powerful that way. I still believe he should have the chance to crush his enemies, so the damage bonus might be added as optative: "Each time bearer wins a skirmish, you may take a [Gandalf] card from your dicard pile into hand or wound each minion in that skirmish".
- Baïn: I don't know if healing Bard is so important to the Esgaroth Pack, I'd have to playtest it but I don't have the chance to do so :(. I understand he must be spotted to heal The Master or allow the Volunteers to fight (and that way Narzug will destroy the culture by killing him). But Esgaroth Volunteers exert themselves to be able to fight, and Baïn exerts to allow his father. The Master can heal Bard but no one heals the Volunteers nor Baïn, that was my point to make Baïn heal any Dale man. Might even exclude The Master. "At the start of each of your turns, you may heal a [Dale] man". "(except The Master)"?
EDIT: A new idea for Saruman's Skirmish ability: "Skirmish: Exert Saruman to make a Wise character strength +2 and exert a [Sauron] or [Wraith] minion". In case you don't want a damage bonus against any minion (Trolls, Smaug, wargriders...), this does more or less the same damage but only against the forces of Dol Guldur (different only in the case Gandalf is facing more than 1 Dol Guldur minion)...
- Dwarven Spear: I don't know how this Dwarven Spear behaved during the last playtest. But I think the strength +1 bonus should not apply only against a Wargrider, but too if bearer is at a battleground. In the movie, it looked as a very versatile weapon in group fighting, either to form a defensive phalanx, or to press against the enemy. If it doesn't end being overpowered, I'd change it to "While at a battleground or skirmishing a mounted minion, bearer is strength +1". That way it would punish a bit any Shadow using and inducing the battleground keyword, just like Dwarven Axe takes some advantage from Smaug's cards to turn a mountain the current site...
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Ok I just change most of the cards with your ideas ;). Thank you!
- Saruman : His test is long enough, I try to make it short. This card seems really powerful now.
- Narya : I put a more simple and short-text ability.
- Mithril Coat : It's not the definitive Shadow Archery. I also think it is too powerful now.
- Oakenshield : I make it simpler and still powerful.
- Dwarven Spear : The card is really powerful, there is no need to add another strength bonus.
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- Eagles Are Coming as a Skirmish event makes much more sense than "Maneuver or Skirmish". :up:
- Narya's new passive skill looks good and not overpowered. :up:
- Dwarven Spear: You are right, it's very powerful. Leave it as it is. :up:
- Beorn :up:. "Wound a minion bearer is skirmishing" is the same but a bit longer than "wound a minion in that skirmish".
- Baïn: "Except The Master". :up:. That was the guy who hit and jailed his father...
- Burglar's Contract seems more equilibrated now with a fixed low strength pump, and a limit. But given its strength pump is now fixed, it might give +1 strength to Bilbo. Or some resistance bonus.
- Oakenshield: It's powerful but a mere Dwarven Bracers. I know the Bracers are a powerful card, but the Oakenshield should have a more epic flavour. It doesn't need to have the skill of Shield of Boromir, but should have something to make him fight a bit better. Something short like "Skirmish: Exert Thorin or play a [Dwarven] event to make him strength +1". That's an event or exertion dependant skill, that should give a strong epic flavor. I mean, both exertions and fighting events are good examples of willpower...
- Mithril Coat: A previous version denied all damage bonuses, and that doesn't make sense with Smaug. I'd change the first skill to "The minion archery total is -1 and minions skirmishing Bilbo lose all damage bonuses from weapons". As far as it's possible. The second skill offers enough overwhelming protection I guess.
- Saruman: I'm glad there's a skirmish ability to add strength to Wise characters. I still believe the damage will be necessary, but all the debate about details for the White Council will need the Nazgul Pack to be defined first. I believe that should be the next step, and then to define the Bolg Archery Pack...
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Looking great guys :)
I've been too busy as of late to dive in with the development, but it's been fun following it. Great to see a lot of good minds on the development team!
Keep up the good work!
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Thank you my dear fellow! I believe we are bent on to create something worthy of being played... and remembered ;). I'm glad you like the way it has been going.
If you have an idea to contribute, I'd be glad to hear it. And our friend Enola would be even happier.
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Thank you dmaz. Sure, as Durin's Heir said, it will be a pleasure to work with you ;).
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- Burglar's Contract: I think the card is strong enough without any other strength or resistance bonus. We have to test it ;).
- Oakenshield and Mithril Coat: I want to make the text shorter for both of them. A Dwarven Bracers is really strong in the Hobbit Draft Game, not sure it's underpowered (and now there is a strength bonus on Oakenshield). The damage bonuses from weapons come only from the Troll Knife. A more general ability seems ok.
- Saruman: I think the text is long enough now.
Is there any other points (except the new Shadows) that could be discussed ? I will probably make the modifications soon.
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- Oakenshield: The problem with the "bracers" Oakenshield is it doesn't make any difference with common bracers, except that it must be borne by Thorin only. Here's an excerpt from Tolkien's writings (The Return of the King, Appendix A, Part III, "Durin's Folk", note 46):
"It is said that Thorin's shield was cloven and he cast it away and he hewed off with his axe a branch of an oak and held it in his left hand to ward off the strokes of his foes, or to wield as a club. In this way he got his name."
So my point here is try to make it appear as a warfare tool that improves Thorin's chances at the battle. It was both a club and a shield, and the shield part is at least partially covered by the response action but the club part isn't well represented in a mere +1 strength in my opinion. I believe a skirmish special ability that can give him strength +1 multiple times should represent well the things a skilled and brave warrior will do with such an improvised device: pushing, striking, dodging, blocking. That is, the offensive and defensive usage of a shield, improvised or not.
But the one I proposed before ("Skirmish: Exert Thorin or play a [Dwarven] event to make him strenght +1") can be really overpowered: base strength +1 (8) and +4 strength by playing Battle Fury (12), or +5 if bearring a [Dwarven] follower (13) plus that follower's strength addition plus 1 by Thorin's skill (15 or 16)...
I firmly think this one will fit better: "Skirmish: Exert Thorin or discard a [Dwarven] event from hand to make him strength +1". That uses 2 lines in the card. Less powerful but more resourceful, can convert non-skirmish events into a +1 strength pump: To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, Lore of Imladris, Battle of Azanulbizar, Ancestral Knowledge... Or even exert himself if he desperately needs to kill his foe or survive an overwhelming.
After all, the Oakenshield was at first a desperate tool for desperate surviving.
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- Burglar's Contract: The idea of giving him strength +1 (or resistance +1 or +2) is to represent Bilbo's conviction about his participation in The Quest. "I'm going on an adventure!"
Bilbo: "Wait! Wait! I signed it. Here."
Balin: "Everything appears to be in order. Welcome, Master Baggins to the company of Thorin Oakenshield."
- Mithril Coat:
1.- The Response action worries me a little: it requires to exert Bilbo twice to cancel an event. Therefore the thing it tries to prevent must be even worse than those 2 exertions of the cost, so most of the times it will be used to prevent overwhelmings. But that means he will take a third wound (after those 2 exertions), or more if there are damage bonuses, so The One Ring will have to convert those wounds into doubts very often...
What do you think about that? I feel those 2 exertions are very costly, but with only 1 the cost would be too low :(. Maybe a passive ability meant to do the same protection against Shadow events: "During skirmishes involving Bilbo, the twilight cost of each Shadow event is +2." Anger would cost [3], If He Losses would cost [4], it would suit well to his stealthy nature. Hidden Dagger would cost [4]...
2.- I agree with your point on damage bonuses from weapons, that can't be much useful. But the Mithril Coat should then stop the strength bonuses. It should prevent the weapons of enemies from thrusting its bearer instead of just a mere reduction of 1 arrow... We are talking about dwarven smithcraft, and Moria-Silver itself! I believe that's a good reason to not reject a long gametext.
The passive skill that negates strength from weapons might be turned into a special ability: "Skirmish: Exert Bilbo to make a minion skirmishing him lose all strength bonuses from weapons."
Mixing those 2 points, my proposal is the following. I hope it's not too long:
[2] Mithril Coat [Dwarven]
Artifact - Armor
Bearer must be Bilbo.
During skirmishes involving Bilbo, the twilight cost of each Shadow event is +2.
Skirmish: Exert Bilbo to make a minion skirmishing him lose all strength bonuses from weapons.
It's actually shorter than the current printable version.
- The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: I found a problem with the ability that discards FP artifacts at maneuver: it can discard other Rings. Including The One Ring.
- The Shadow Arkenstone: With the current text "each companion and ally of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2 (except [Gandalf])", Galadriel and Elrond's strenght will be diminished. And that can wreck the whole White Council Pack: Galadriel with only 1 strength point can and will be overwhelmed by anyone. And Sauron will know it...
Might be changed to "each non-Wise companion and ally of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2". No [Gandalf] culture exception.
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I'm sorry but I really like the Oakenshield like it is now. It perfectly fit the story (strength + desperate proctetion) and really powerful for the Hobbit Draft Game.
I change the Burglar's Contract with a +1 resistance.
Ok for Mithril Coat (it was a way to counter all the Gollum events), I will change it with a new version :
• Mithril Coat : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Artifact • Armor. Bearer must be Bilbo. The minion archery total is -1. While Bilbo is skirmishing, the twilight cost of each Shadow event is +2.
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I upload all the modifications of the FP packs and more (except the new Shadows) on the website. I didn't list all the modifications on the website yet.
There are also the new cards for the Shadow Smaug :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Shadow_Arkenstone.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Wrath_of_the_Dragon.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Twisted_Gold_of_Dragon.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Smaug_s_Awakening.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Dissension.png
Enjoy ^^.
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I'm sorry but I really like the Oakenshield like it is now. It perfectly fit the story (strength + desperate protection) and really powerful for the Hobbit Draft Game.
I cannot disagree with that last part you said... It's very powerful as a copy of Dwarven Bracers, and thought I don't think it fits perfectly with the story, it doesn't fail at all and my version might be overpowered with all the natural power of Thorin (his ability, followers, Orcrist), in comparison to the foes he will fight. I give up, my fellow. :up:
Anyway, as a small suggestion, it might reduce the cost of [Dwarven] events, just like Narya reduces the cost with [Gandalf] ones. "The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1".
I change the Burglar's Contract with a +1 resistance.
That's a good thing. The skirmish ability will pile up doubts on him. :up:
Ok for Mithril Coat (it was a way to counter all the Gollum events), I will change it with a new version :
• Mithril Coat : Cost (2). [Dwarven] Artifact • Armor. Bearer must be Bilbo. The minion archery total is -1. While Bilbo is skirmishing, the twilight cost of each Shadow event is +2.
It still gives me the feeling of lack of protection. +1 Vitality? That would fix that problem (if my notion is right), without adding a single word to the text.
EDIT: :o Just saw the Smaug cards... They look just AMAZING!!! =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
The Arkenstone has plenty of room for a good lore text, to enhance that chilling admiration effect it causes (GREAT WORK my friend!) I can think about these 2 quotes:
- "That Stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it." From the book.
- "I am almost tempted to let you take it, if only to see Oakenshield suffer... watch it corrupt his heart and drive him mad." From the Desolation of Smaug movie.
Thank you my fellow for the pleasure of watching such impressive and professional cards. Bravo!
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Ok I just change Oakenshield and Mithril Coat with your ideas.
I prefer to keep the Shadow Arkenstone like that because of the "..." syntax like in these folowing cards were there is no lore text :
7U13 • Reckless Pride
7U15 • Ancient Blade
7U49 • Steadfast Champion
7U77 • We Hates Them
7U126 • Unexpected Visitor
7U328 • Slow-kindled Courage
I am glad you like these new cards :).
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- Old Thrush: Maybe it's a bit late to think about this, but what if the Old Thrush is a [Dwarven] follower instead? The same game text (exerting Bilbo as aid cost, with the same cost and effect), but if it were dwarvish it might be replayed by To Me! O My Kinsfolk! That bird was part of the dwarven moonrunes about Erebor in Thrór's Map... "Stand by the grey stone when the thrush knocks, and the setting sun with the last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole".
Gandalf: "That, my dear Oin, is a thrush"
Thorin: "But we'll take it as a sign. A good omen"
Perhaps you were precisely trying to avoid the use of To Me! O My Kinsfolk! with the Old Thrush. But as it's ability is used in maneuver and the Thrush won't play directly the card you search, unless that card is a non-fellowship event you will have to wait until the next turn to play it... My point is, even with To Me! O My Kinsfolk! replaying it, it won't do a fast set up.
A little question, given the lore text "The men of Dale were able to understand the language of the bird, and they served the men as messengers". Should the Old Thrush search for a [Dale] card? Because only companions may bear followers, unless a follower states its possible bearers. "Bearer must be a companion or [Dale] man", or "Bearer must be a Free Peoples character" might be alternatives.
- Mithril Coat & Oakenshield: The new picture of the Oakenshield is much better! The twilight reduction to events can represent the keen leadership of Thorin facing the pale Orc. The Mithril Coat is an armor different to anything else ever made by Decipher, I think many people will be surprised of its effectiveness.
- The Shadow Arkenstone: I don't think it should cause any trouble, because the lore text is always in a smaller font and in italics. There ain't a single gametext line written in italics, so an italized text shouldn't ever be considered a gametext...
There's a lot of other cards from Set 7 that don't have lore text, many having plenty of room and motives to have one.
Preparations
Asfaloth, Elven Steed
Bow of the Galadhrim, Gift of Galadriel
(7C20) Defiance and every other reprint
Numenor's Pride
Fat One Wants It
Footman's Armor
Gondorian Sword
Guarded
Iorlas
Knight's Spear
Riding Armor...
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- Old Thrush: The Dwarfs are not directly in contact with the Thrush. I prefer to keep the Thrush as a Shire card in the Bilbo pack. We can consider
Old Thrush : Cost (1). [Shire] Follower. Bird. Aid - exert Bilbo. Strength +1. Maneuver: Discard this follower to take into hand an ally from your draw deck or discard pile.
- Mithril Coat: I agree about this point. We can still change this armor (but with a small text ;) ).
- The Shadow Arkenstone: I made a first test with a lore text on the Shadow Arkenstone, but it was better without any other text.
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- Mithril Coat: It might punish both Shadow events and Shadow special abilities against Bilbo, the way Wrath of Harad does: 'While Bilbo is skirmishing, each Shadow event and Shadow special ability gains this cost: "remove [2]."' It's longer than the current version, but I hope not so long to be rejected...
- Old Thrush: The Shire vinculation is present in the "Aid - Exert Bilbo" cost. I agree it MUST be in the Bilbo pack, but the Mirkwood Pack has a [Dwarven] artifact (Emeralds of Girion), so it wouldn't be a problem to make the Old Thrush a [Dwarven] card in Bilbo's Pack still needing to exert Bilbo...
I believe the Old Thrush might search for any [Dale] card to get, for instance, the Black Arrow. In the book, Bard knew from the Old Thrush that Smaug had a weak point discovered by Bilbo.
"Maneuver: Discard this follower to take into hand a Free Peoples card of bearer's culture (or [Dale]) from your draw deck or discard pile".
Might get a needed event for Bilbo, Gandalf or a Dwarf (Thorin's good omen)...
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- The Shadow Arkenstone: I made a first test with a lore text on the Shadow Arkenstone, but it was better without any other text.
:-[ Oh man, I found a good way of using that spare card room for gametext: "Each non-Wise character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2" is wrong. #-o It needs to specify either "Free Peoples character" or "companion or ally", or else will punish minions too. We talked about this some time ago, but I totally forgot this time... So that part will need to use 3 lines instead of 2. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
And there won't be a lore text.
- "Each non-Wise Free Peoples character of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2."
- "Each non-Wise companion or ally of a different culture than bearer's is strength -2."
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- Mithril Coat : It's not too long but more complicated :(. I will let it like this.
- Ok for the Old Thrush, but I keep it in Shire culture in order to not be used with Nori or To Me! O Me Kinsfolk! This follower will still help Dwarves ;).
• Old Thrush, Messenger Bird
Maneuver: Discard this follower to take into hand a Free Peoples card (except [Gandalf] or [Elf]) from your draw deck or discard pile.
- Shadow Arkenstone : You are right! I change it, but it doesn't bring a new line. I stll prefer the card like without any lore text.
I modified some of these cards :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Shadow_Arkenstone.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Wrath_of_the_Dragon.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Twisted_Gold_of_Dragon.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Smaug_s_Awakening.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Dissension.png
I also create the new Sauron culture :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Sauron.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Shadow_Ring_of_Thror.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Jail.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Add/Danger_Wrapped_in_Shadows.png
I'm not sure I will find 9 different good pictures of Nazguls :(. You sent me some photos but it's hard to have a good quality picture.
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- Ok for the Old Thrush, but I keep it in Shire culture in order to not be used with Nori or To Me! O Me Kinsfolk! This follower will still help Dwarves ;).
• Old Thrush, Messenger Bird
Maneuver: Discard this follower to take into hand a Free Peoples card (except [Gandalf] or [Elf]) from your draw deck or discard pile.
I just can't disagree here! ;D Great version! :up:
- Shadow Arkenstone : You are right! I change it, but it doesn't bring a new line. I stll prefer the card like without any lore text.
The issue I got with the lore text is, I firmly believe it brings life to the cards by inserting them in a perspective of Tolkien's writings and Jackson's films. A good lore text can even bridge the differences between the portrayal made by PJ and the original writings, and that's huge. That's the reason why I tend to fight always for a (good) lore text to be included...
I modified some of these cards :
Smaug's Awakening looks much better! Twisted Gold of Dragon is amazing, except for one thing: given the text and the image, I can't see any link to the gold hoard... perhaps the name should be changed. As he directs to the people of Lake-Town, and the gametext allows Lake-men to fight, I'd change it to "I Will Show You Revenge!".
I also create the new Sauron culture :
The [Sauron] Necromancer culture:
Danger Wrapped In Shadows and Ring of Thrór look really gorgeous my friend! Beautilful images and distribution of colors and text. That's the same picture I imagined for the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór from the start! :up:
- Danger Wrapped In Shadows: Danger has some spare room for lore text, and a little error too, easy to solve: "... to take into hand...". The lore text might be related to Radagast's feelings and experience about Dol Guldur: "A Dark Power dwells in there... such as l have never felt before."
- The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: It's a good thing this artifact can't discard Rings (he still can weaken Bilbo by discarding Sting). But it lacks a limit, it might be used twice the way it is by now. "Exert Sauron to discard a non-Ring artifact (limit once)" (excerting only once). If you can add this text as lore to the Ring of Thrór, DO IT (I know it's more or less 60% longer, but there is a spare line in your card and this MUST be present):
"Nearly all his ravings were of that. The last of the Seven he said over and over again..."
- Jail: Beautiful image you chose sir, nothing to add here. :up:
- Sauron, The Necromancer: This is the only card which doesn't offer too much to my taste. The image looks a bit pixelated, that can be fixed (*see the attached image). And I think you might use the [Sauron] artifact template instead, just like The Balrog uses a different, more colorful [Moria] template instead of the common one. It might make sense to give the [Sauron] symbol and the middle bar a golden color for Sauron...
I will talk later about the Nazgul...
* I attached an image as a proposal of change for Sauron, The Necromancer. An image of the "shadow" Necromancer might be used too (the one that wraps Thráin)...
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Ok thank you, I just change all the Sauron cards and the Arkenstone.
For Sauron, I took another picture and I don't think other template than the classical Sauron template is needed (all the Sauron in LOTR TCG are classical). I modify the Great Goblin template like the Balrog one.
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I've been thinking about those cards that allow the Shadow player to discard FP items and followers. Refering only to fixed FP cards from the Main deck (that excludes Gandalf The Grey and FP Packs), there is only one way to get solely [Dwarven] followers back to play (To Me! O My Kinsfolk!), and not a single card to bring possessions or artifacts back to play/hand/draw deck.
The main problem I see is Sauron will discard Sting with the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór, and then there won't be a chance to get it back. And the same goes with Glamdring, allies, non- [Dwarven] followers...
An easy solution might be changing Balin from recycling a FP event to recylcing any FP card.
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You are right, maybe we have to limit the abilities (Ring of Thror and Wrath of the Dragon). Maybe the Ring of Thror ability is too strong ? But a good way to handle it is a modification of Balin (well done ;)).
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I don't think the skills of those Shadow cards should be reduced. There are more to be added to the count: William discards weapons, Demolition Troll (I love the concept sir!) will discard possessions, Bert discards allies, Yazneg discards followers ([Dwarven] or not), and Smaug discards almost everything.
So there are two options: to maim the discarding effect of each of those Shadow cards, or to give the FP player a card or two in the Main deck to get back those discarded cards to hand/play/draw deck. So Balin should return any FP card to the draw deck. But maybe another Dwarf of the Company should have an ability for the same objective...
Fili's text and attributes make him the most useless Dwarf companion; he has plenty of card room for another skill. Do you remember when the Mirkwood elves confiscated their weapons, and Kili Fili had knives hidden everywhere? Perhaps Kili Fili should have an active ability like this: "Manuever: Exert Fili and discard a [Dwarven] card from hand to take a possession or artifact from your discard pile into your hand". As a maneuver action, you will have to wait until the next turn to play it... Or maybe "to play a weapon from your discard pile". It's just a suggestion, might be instead a fellowship version, or even another ability at all.
My points are two really: reduce the exertion focus from Balin, and add some usefulness to Kili. He was Thorin's Heir after all.
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I'm ok to change the text of Balin for any FP card, but Kili is the strongest Dwarf when Fili is "exhausted" (we can change for "wounded").
In LOTR TCG, when a possession or condition is discarded, there are not so many ways to bring it back to the game.
I prefer a little reduction of Demolition Troll and Ring of Thror. Wrath of the Dragon seems costly.
• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (0). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact, you may take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Exert Sauron twice to discard a non-Ring artifact ((limit once per turn).
Demolition Troll : Cost (5). [Moria] minion. Troll. Site 4. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Assailant. Shadow : Spot a [Moria] Orc and exhaust this minion to discard a possession.
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In LOTR TCG, when a possession or condition is discarded, there are not so many ways to bring it back to the game.
Hmmmm. No and yes. No: There are actually many ways since the first block, and most are very efficient. To mention a few, [Dwarven] has Storm of Argument (into draw deck), Defending the Keep (into play) and "Courtesy of My Hall/Preparations" + Dwarven Foresight (into hand), [Gandalf] has Fireworks (into draw deck) and Treebeard Keeper of the Watchwood (into play), [Rohan] has Ecglaf, Armory, Sword Rack, Merry Swordthain and a long etc (into play), [Shire] has Dear Friends (into draw deck) but that's actually universal to any culture (thus helping [Gondor] and [Elven]).
Yes: Given they aren't played too often, it looks like there aren't many ways. But the usual deck builds still work without those recycling cards, due to players have the chance to pack several copies of any needed card, so they don't need to recycle them from discard pile most of those times. For instance, I've never seen a TMAYOD deck that uses only 1 copy of that key card, most use 2 or 3. Same with Galadriel LoL, Book of Mazarbul, Horn of Boromir, Gwemegil, Aragorn's Bow...
Here most non-event FP cards will have only 1 copy available. There are only 3 weapon cards in the Main deck, and 3/7 Packs provide 2 weapons bearable by Dwarves, but to be drafted first. No conditions at all. So the lack or scarceness of recycling methods will strike heavier here than in LOTR TCG. And keep in mind the Shadow discarding of FP items is stronger here than in LOTR...
I'm ok to change the text of Balin for any FP card, but Fili is the strongest Dwarf when Kili is "exhausted" (we can change for "wounded").
My proposal for Fili to replay directly from discard pile was plainly excessive. But my idea was to prevent all those exertions to fall upon Balin. The strongest Dwarf actually is and always will be Thorin, he has such a mighty text (by bearing only 1 [Dwarven] follower he's strength 8 + that follower's help). Besides those items for him: Orcrist, the Oakenshield and likely the Ring of Thrór. The only non-Boxing Dwarf will be Thorin if the randomly chosen packs don't provide any weapon.
I think the current version of Fili is more or less useless due to the lack of necessity of an ability like his. Thorin deals with the tough guys, Dwalin can be a kamikaze against swarms, Balin recycles FP events any FP card, Nori discards Shadow possessions; they have 7 strength each so are great fighters. Kili is Greenleaf. Glóin can be a killer in emergency. Which leaves only Fili as remnant, a great warrior but only if he spots his brother in play AND exhausted (such a fragile scenario, moreover against Sauron assigning Kili to his death, or any direct wounding card like Hidden Dagger).
So I believe Fili's gametext is not bad but needs to be improved, either by making him a better killer or defender, or by making him a counter to a given aspect of the artifices and tricks of the Shadow cultures, just like Nori counters Trolls and Wargriders while Dwalin and Kili counter Moria and Spiders. So what can Fili do? There's enough card room and imagination to solve that question... Doubts? Twilight reduction? Card drawing? Skirmish pump to anyone? Wound prevention like Eowyn LoR / Gondor Will See It Done? Shadow conditions? Healing?... Fortunatley there's enough time to think of a proper skill for him.
I prefer a little reduction of Demolition Troll and Ring of Thror. Wrath of the Dragon seems costly.
• Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Cost (0). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1. Bearer must be Sauron. When you play this artifact, you may take up to 2 minions from your discard pile into hand. Maneuver: Exert Sauron twice to discard a non-Ring artifact ((limit once per turn).
Demolition Troll : Cost (5). [Moria] minion. Troll. Site 4. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Assailant. Shadow : Spot a [Moria] Orc and exhaust this minion to discard a possession.
For all I wrote above, I think that won't be necessary. The Shadow Ring of Thrór is good as it is, and the Demolition Troll might exert as cost but exhaust itself is too much.
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So ok for the new text of Balin.
For Fili, I'm also ok to change the text, but I will be a bit boring on this point. The FP cards in the main deck are pretty simple or the copies of LOTR TCG cards. So if it's ok, there will be only one single ability for his text and not too complicated :(.
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So ok for the new text of Balin.
:up:
Different ideas of a skill for Fili (those are fancy names for the concepts, the subtitle won't change from "Brother of Kili"):
- Wound Prevention: I was thinking about Eowyn LoR's response wound prevention. Fili protecting his brother, his uncle and his entire folk. Besides his previous damage +1, and a little increase of +1 to a base strength of 6 (or else won't survive when you need him). That Eowyn skill is quite powerful, moreover when facing Smaug. Wound prevention is an aspect that wasn't present in any card except for the Oakenshield.
[2] •Fili, Brother of Kili [Dwarven]. Companion • Dwarf. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Response: If a [Dwarven] companion is about to take a wound, exert Fili and add [1] to prevent that wound.
- Direct Skirmish Help: Fili exerting to make another companion strength +2.
[2] •Fili, Brother of Kili [Dwarven]. Companion • Dwarf. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Skirmish: Exert Fili to make Bilbo or another [Dwarven] companion strength +2.
- Encourager of Surviving: "Skirmish: Exert a Dwarf (or discard a [Dwarven] card from hand) to make that Dwarf strength +1". I know, that text was discarded from the Oakenshield...
[2] •Fili, Brother of Kili [Dwarven]. Companion • Dwarf. Strength 6, Vitality 3. Damage +1. Skirmish: Exert a Dwarf (or discard a [Dwarven] card from hand) to make that Dwarf strength +1.
- Upgraded Fili: Or a simple upgrade of the original version: "While you can spot Kili, Fili is strength +2 (or +3 if Kili is exhausted)". Not my favourite, as it doesn't offer anything but another warrior with good base attributes.
[2] •Fili, Brother of Kili [Dwarven]. Companion • Dwarf. Strength 5, Vitality 3. Damage +1. While you can spot Kili, Fili is strength +2 (or +3 if Kili is exhausted).
I will try to think about other options using simplicity. You are very right about that: Main Deck cards must have simple skills and simple wording for those skills.
If there wasn't another idea to be added, I'd vote for the Wound Prevention.
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Ok for the Wound Prevention, but I want to keep Fili as a cheap Eowyn with strength 5 (like his brother). Kili and Dwalin are cheap Legolas Greenleaf and Aragorn ROTN.
I don't know if adding [2] rather than [1] isn't more balanced ?
Since the main deck has been often tested, I will discuss about that with the playtesters. Do you think we need another modifications on the main deck or the first Shadows packs ?
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Here is the two other Shadows.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Bolg_Commander.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Orkish_Pursuer.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Fifth_Army.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Orkish_Bow.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Hidden_Attack.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Morgul_Arrow.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Azog_Commander.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Wolves_Army.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Goblin_Vanguard.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Demolition_Troll.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Vicious_Warg.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Dark_Bats.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Stone_Giants.png
I'm discussing with the other playtesters about the Balin and Fili changes. If you can send me all the Nazgul pictures, I will start the Nazgul pack.
Enjoy ;).
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Ok for the Wound Prevention, but I want to keep Fili as a cheap Eowyn with strength 5 (like his brother). Kili and Dwalin are cheap Legolas Greenleaf and Aragorn ROTN.
I don't know if adding [2] rather than [1] isn't more balanced ?
I know Dwalin and Kili are "cheap" versions of Greenleaf and Aragorn RotN. And Aragorn RotN (or Aragorn Heir of Elendil) along with Eowyn LoR is a good combo: you exhaust Aragorn and prevent the otherwise lethal wounds with Eowyn.
I believe he can be strength 6 and be "cheaper than Eowyn" by adding [2] instead of [1], and protecting only Dwarves (excluding Gandalf and Bilbo). But the strength reduction would be pretty troublesome, both in gameplay and story representation.
Gameplay: The problem with making Fili weaker than Eowyn LoR is that a 5 strength guy is very easy to overwhelm and he'll be a Boxing Dwarf most of the times. Eowyn can bear any [Rohan] possession you pack in the deck: a mount, a hand weapon, a ranged weapon, an armor; so she might end up with 10 strength, dmg +1 (+ the exertion of the mount). Here Fili has nothing but only 3 [Dwarven] followers for the whole group, due to Orkish Marauder. The Marauder is pretty strong.
Story: We might study a bit of Dwarvenology to put things in the right context. Indeed Tolkien depicted Dwarves as the strongest of the Free Peoples, except only for Ents. They exceled in respect of weapons, crafting the best weaponry and wielding those with unequaled skill. In the last movie they carried great pieces of rock with their bare hands (and if Tolkien were alive I know he wouldn't disagree with PJ in that specific aspect).
When Thorin went to the battlefield and decided to assault Ravenhill he picked his best warriors with him: Dwalin, Fili and Kili. Fili and Kili were trained in weapons since their early childhood as Heirs of Durin's Folk, by the other Heirs of Durin's Folk: strong and experienced veterans of the War of Dwarves and Orcs. That counts Thorin, Balin, Dwalin and Glóin at least.
So Fili should be strength 6, or strength 5 but make Fili and Kili gain +1 strength when both are present: "While you can spot Kili, Fili and Kili are strength +1." That would make them stronger when they are part of a team and not only splash expendable companions, also highlighting their unity as brothers. Maybe both should have that text, to make them strength 7 vitality 3 and either archer or damage +1. Great warriors worthy of using their companion slots (6 is the safe count, including Thorin, Bilbo and very often Gandalf). Think about this addition:
Fili: Strength 5, Damage +1. While you can spot Kili and he is not exhausted, Fili and Kili are strength +1.
Kili: Strength 5, Archer. While you can spot Fili and he is not exhausted, Fili and Kili are strength +1.
Since the main deck has been often tested, I will discuss about that with the playtesters. Do you think we need another modifications on the main deck or the first Shadows packs ?
Hmmmm, I've been thinking the same for some time, because the strength of the new Shadow Packs apparently overcomes by far the older ones... So the older packs might need to be strenghtened.
A way of reducing the proportional strength of the new Shadow Packs is to increase the strength of the Main Deck in both sides. But don't know with certainty if it's a good idea.
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The new Shadows are only proposed mechanisms, we have to evaluate the strength of them after some tests.
I prefer to reduce the strength of these new Shadows than increase the strength of the previous cards. The main deck and the first Shadows are now approximatively balanced.
Ok, Fili and Kili will be just strength 6, and it will be ok.
Gloin will probably have a strength +3 bonus (instead of +2).
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I prefer to reduce the strength of these new Shadows than increase the strength of the previous cards. The main deck and the first Shadows are now approximatively balanced.
That's true, that balance doesn't need to be spoiled.
Ok, Fili and Kili will be just strength 6, and it will be ok.
Gloin will probably have a strength +3 bonus (instead of +2).
That solves in a good extent a part of the Boxing Dwarves problem. But the other part I believe is the Marauder blocking more than 3 followers... and that has the purpose of preventing long maneuver phases. How to equilibrate both needs?
Kili and Dwalin are cheap Legolas Greenleaf and Aragorn ROTN.
I don't know if Dwalin should be called a "cheap" version... He was nothing less than a Dwarf, a Longbeard (their strongest kind), a Heir of Durin (even stronger) and a veteran of the bloody War of the Dwarves and Orcs (and probably fought too in the Battle of Dale against the Easterlings). Who lived to be 340 years old. Who buttheaded orcs bearing helmets with his bare forehead! Toughest amongst the toughest.
Dwalin is damage +1, so he can kill a minion while Aragorn would just push it back. I believe Dwalin might be strength 8 without generating a big imbalance, as far as his vitality is always no more than 3. As his twilight cost is 3, he won't be present in any clever starting fellowship and that's a point to consider.
Here is the two other Shadows.
I'm discussing with the other playtesters about the Balin and Fili changes. If you can send me all the Nazgul pictures, I will start the Nazgul pack.
Enjoy ;).
The picture for the Demolition Troll should be the one who knocks down the wall of Dale with his head.... (it appears at 1:13:43, I'm not proud of it but downloaded for this project's purpose)
Good pictures there. But the themes of the Swarm Pack are worrying me a little since the start, and if I've said nothing yet is because The Nazgul Pack of the Beatdown one was worked first but the details are still unfinished. So the Beatdown is unfinished as a whole.
- [Wraith] The Nazgul culture:
There are two main issues with this culture: scarceness of [Wraith] cards per player and the high site number. To put those two points in the proper perspective we need to look at another culture with clue similarities to the Nazgul: being a completely new culture with no support at all from the Main Deck and having a total of only 15 available cards to stand on its own. That is the Troll culture. We need to understand how it works in despite of those weak points. And then replicate those points with The Nazgul.
1. Troll culture consists of only 3 unique Trolls, having each 3 copies to be drafted. Which means that if there are 2 players only and the distribution were regular, each player would have 4 or 5 minion cards. Which is very small. So to counter that shortage those minions need to be replayed from discard over and over again. Therefore Troll Campfire is the key card of the culture. The cost of replaying them needs also to be quite low.
So the Nazgul need to have a mechanism to be replayed, and unlike Trolls that mechanism can't come from support cards and instead must be present in their own gametext.
2. That scarcity of cards is also countered by the high impact each of those minions provide by itself. They are quite disruptive: they are strong and hard to kill, and fight twice. And they are pretty cheap: only [5] and they never roam. The pumps and tricks are powerful too: Troll Knife is pretty destructive, while Bert protects the precious Troll Campfire, William block followers and Tom turns each victory into another potential victory.
They are cheap; they never arrive late to the party by their site number of 2. Nazgul are expensive and even more if they roam until 5. Trolls are strong and disruptive. Nazgul aren't too strong except for the Witch King and Attea, they aren't too disruptive and also don't have room for support cards to pump them or replay them. Nazgul are fierce and that's a good point to keep, but much must be modified until they can stand on their own.
My general idea is to keep the site 5 but reduce the twilight cost of each by 2, and then to replay them each should have a skill: "You may remove [3] to play this minion from your discard pile". Another alternative is to keep the LOTR TCG costs, but add this instead: "You may play this minion from your discard pile"; therefore the Witch King would cost 10 until 4, and since 5 strike over and over again by paying 8. And it's shorter. The high site number with the same LOTR TCG costs would allow the Company to set up before The Nazgul hit them repeatedly...
I know you are trying to bring them back to the draw deck, but drawing them again is a thing that might not happen at the proper time. Or not happen at all if the Dwarves move fast enough. So I firmly believe it must be a mechanism to replay them directly, but unlike Troll Campfire must be in their text.
Disruptive skills should be added in the small remaining room.
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If you can send me all the Nazgul pictures, I will start the Nazgul pack.
I've only found this in a good resolution:
http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/BotFATrailer30.jpg
which appears here:
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/11/10/94236-torns-final-frame-by-frame-analysis-the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies-main-trailer/6/
That page is of analysis of the Trailer. There are good speculations, like the Nazgul being seen clearly be the effect of the Three Rings. The statue seems to be headless and holding in its hand a Palantir-shaped stone...
Clockwise (from up to right), the 3rd Nazgul is the Witch King. It can be deduced from the fact that Nazgul stands at the middle and in front of the row when the Nine are brought back by The Eye, so he must hold a hierarchy position amongst them. The Witch holds a long non-thorned mace, or perhaps a Staff...
Anyway, the best pictures of a Nazgul are in AUJ, when Radagast fights the Witchie... bearing Khamul (Ulaire Attea)'s crown. #-o.
EDIT: I found a possible change to Orkish Marauder to reduce the limitation it exerts on the Company. Change the first paragraph to "Maneuver: Spot 4 attached followers and exhaust this minion to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion". By refering solely to attached followers, it would allow to play each single follower and then select what should be attached given the current needs. Battle of Azanulbizar might allow the FP player to cripple the use of this Orc's skill, but it's a non-unique and cheap Orc...
I think it solves the problem.
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I prefer to keep Dwalin at 7, I'm not sure about bringing Kili and Fili at strength 6. I made a test yesterday and with 5, they are both real pains.
Ok for the wound protection of Fili and the bonus +3 of Gloin.
I will see the other playtesters thursday, so we will discuss about all these.
I'm not a big fan of this new Orkish Marauder, because, when he will not be in the game, it will still be like the crazy "Horn filter deck" in LOTR TCG. But I will consider your proposition.
Thank you a lot for your ideas.
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I directly made the [Wraith] cards, even with bad pictures. I will wait for the HD movie to have them in a good quality picture.
I hope I solve a bit of the problem of cost and replay :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/The_Witch_King.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Attea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Toldea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Enquea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Cantea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Nelya.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Nertea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Otsea.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Lemenya.png
Since they have all the same ability, I try this new ability
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/Otsea_Resurrect.png
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I'm not a big fan of this new Orkish Marauder, because, when he will not be in the game, it will still be like the crazy "Horn filter deck" in LOTR TCG. But I will consider your proposition.
I don't see the connection between the Horn Filter deck and this Orkish Marauder. As far as I know, the Horn Filter plays a lot of cards directly from the draw deck and allows that way for superb Shadow hands. The abuse of followers is the lesser benefit, and most of the abuse happens due to the aid cost in LOTR TCG often is merely "Add X twilight" (here followers need to exert, add doubts, discard specific cards from hand...). And I agree we must prevent any abuse and Orkish Marauder is a good way to punish it. I'm only trying to change the way it punishes the follower abuse.
Marauder will be in the game to limit strongly the abusive use of followers by using 2 card slots. It can be replayed with Host of Thousands, Hatred Rekindled and site 9, so 2 slots are enough for a constant threat. And even can be increased to 3, I have no problem about that.
What I meant with the proposal is to cause fear of "using" simultaneously 4 followers, just as Greed or Shotgun Enquea induce fear of "using" 6 or more companions. But we need to understand this essential difference between the "use of a companion" and the "use of a follower": 1. Companions: The way of using a companion is by playing it and keeping it alive on the board. 2. Followers: They don't do anything by just staying on the board, they need to be transferred to induce any effect on the game. That's quite different.
Current: "When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion".
Proposal: "Maneuver: Spot 4 attached followers and exert this minion to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion".
The proposal focuses on the "attachment/use" of more than 3 followers. So the FP player will still use solely 3 followers without punishment, but now will have the chance of having more than just 3 followers in play to choose up to 3 to use. That's quite important given the wide different functions each different Dwarf follower covers. Sometimes you will need to prevent overwhelmings (Dori) or wounds (Bofur), or to heal those wounds (Óin); sometimes you will need to kill a minion at once (Bombur and/or Beorn) or discard a condition (Bifur), or even to draw faster (Ori) to set up or due to desperate situations... They are all needed at different moments of the game. [Gandalf] followers worsen the situation. So we need to ditch that crippling of only 3 followers on the board.
There won't be that Boxing Dwarves problem anymore if you take this proposal. Dwarf followers will be able to support Dwarf companions given the specific needs of the moment, without such risk of Marauder exhausting your key Dwarf. Followers give strength and useful skills, but must be payed each turn; weapons are paid only once and give more strenght. So I believe it might be a good solution to that old problem.
I prefer to keep Dwalin at 7, I'm not sure about bringing Kili and Fili at strength 6. I made a test yesterday and with 5, they are both real pains.
Ok for the wound protection of Fili and the bonus +3 of Gloin.
I will see the other playtesters thursday, so we will discuss about all these.
Great for Glóin due to an exertion is not a small cost. If the Orkish Marauder proposal is taken, the Sister-Sons of Thorin will be enough with strength 5. And Dwalin too with 7...
And I'm really glad to hear that Fili and Kili are real pains, be they strength 5 or 6. That's the way the Sons of Durin should always be!
Thank you a lot for your ideas.
You are welcome, my dear fellow!
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I understood all this. But the effect is a long maneuver phase due to a high number of followers. It doesn't depend on the number of attached followers, but on the number of followers in play. The number of choices the Free Peoples player has (like in the Horn filter game) could take a really long time ("Will I transfer this follower ? And this one ? ....").
Maybe we can add a way to avoid this problem (but the text is too long, 4 lines + the rest of the text) :
When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower to prevent this.
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When you play this minion, spot 4 followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may discard a follower to prevent this.
That's actually better than the current but far from solving the issues. The problem is it may be replayed very easily. Hatred Rekindled, Host of Thousands, Site 9, [Sauron] Ring of Thrór and Troll Campfire. Some of your Nazgul return to hand an Orc in Shadow phase and thus you can replay it. It's non-unique also. So you will end up discarding each follower over 4...
Most followers in Horn Filter decks in LOTR don't require to exert, add doubts, discard a card of a specific culture to be attached (...they just add [X]). Those requirements limit the chances you have to effectively use a given follower (if you don't have a [Gandalf] card in hand or if you are in trouble facing Gollum or the Smaug conditions, you won't have to decide whether to use or not Gwaihir and Bofur respectively). And when those LOTR TCG followers require to add burdens, threats or wounds, there are really abusive ways to remove them...
Much more importantly, in LOTR TCG there aren't many ways of countering the FP when using followers, and most or all of them may be triggered by the Shadow player by packing Saruman, Servant of Sauron in case he/she wants to (ab)use them. So the Shadow player will strike you with those follower-counters be it you play followers or not. LOTR TCG doesn't have your Orkish Marauder nor my version, to counter followers. So they tend to attach any number of followers they want to and think only about twilight for a second move, or about not exceeding an amount of burdens they'll reap later.
In the Hobbit Draft Game there are 6 to 8 FP followers, and each is unique. You have to draw them (or Eagles Are Coming) first to play them; no Horn to filter here. Then you have to be able to pay their very specific costs. And then comes the Marauder to limit the number you may attach (by your way, mine or any we may think of later). I don't think there's too much risk of prolonged maneuver phases. That's my theoretical opinion, I'd playtest it if I could :(.
Thanks for your patience sir.
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Maybe the limitation has to be placed on Yazneg : "(or discard 2 followers if you can spot 5 followers)"? We have to think about all this.
What do you think about the Nazgul cards ? I know that their powers are a bit strong, but we have to make a balanced cost for the "Resurrect" ability.
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What do you think about the Nazgul cards ? I know that their powers are a bit strong, but we have to make a balanced cost for the "Resurrect" ability.
I like the concept of a "Resurrect" keyword. As a new loaded keyword, it will require to always explain in italics and parenthesis the effect is has on the game, so it can't be useful to reduce the length of the text. But can be quite useful to label a game mechanic for an easier recognition to anyone: developers, new players and experienced LOTR TCG players.
But in my opinion the twilight reduction is clearly overpowered. That can be compensated by twilight adding skills in some Nazgul; or by a reduction of 2 in each Nazgul's twilight cost (given the increment of 2 in the site number). So the number X in "Resurrect X" might be changed from reducing in X the twilight cost to exerting X minions to resurrect that specific minion. I think that will be more equilibrated.
"Resurrect X. (You may exert X [Wraith] minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
Without the twilight reduction it's way shorter, and that's very important to these new Nazgul. And as a keyword, it may be included in the same line as the "fierce" keyword (remember minions with "Damage +1. Fierce."), and thus you can save much more card room.
The specification of only [Wraith] minions to exert will be a big problem: if you don't have any [Wraith] minion in hand, you won't be able to resurrect anyone in the discard pile. That doesn't occur in the Troll Culture, and it's critical given the lack of [Wraith] cards to include in the deck. There's no other mechanism of playing [Wraith] minions than drawing them first, so that will happen quite often. So I'd eliminate it.
Then the Orcs in the Main deck would serve as exertion material, just like they do as discarding material to play Trolls. If needed, a specification of culture, race or a specific minion may be added after the X.
"Resurrect X. (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
"Resurrect [Wraith] X. (You may exert X [Wraith] minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
"Resurrect - Sauron X times. (You may exert Sauron X times to play this minion from your discard pile.)"
"Retrieve" keyword.
Let's think about an additional change. By now it's an Ad Hoc keyword for Nazgul only, but the way it works has been seen in 2 previous cards: Smaug's Dissension and Gollum's If He Loses. Those are events and events can't resurrect, so a more universal word may be used: Retrieve.
Dissension:
"Retrieve - Smaug twice. (You may exert Smaug twice to play this event from your discard pile.)"
If He Loses:
"Retrieve - Gollum twice. (You may exert Gollum twice to play this event from your discard pile.)"
Ulaire Otsea:
"Retrieve - 2. (You may exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.)" 2 Orcs, 2 Nazgul, Sauron and an Orc... any 2 minions.
As such, it might even be used by future new FP cards (in an Extension) or by new Shadow cards. Perhaps some Sauron cards like Danger Wrapped In Shadows or the Ring of Thrór will benefit from this new keyword...
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And as a keyword, it may be included in the same line as the "fierce" keyword (remember minions with "Damage +1. Fierce."), and thus you can save much more card room.
Not for specific keyword like in 11R226, and other cards in sets 11-19. The ability have to be explained in all cards (btw I will add this for Aid, but only for the Dwarven followers).
Yes, I was thinking about a mechanism, which can use the Orcs in the main deck. So X minions is good, but maybe we also need a twilight reduction ? Maybe only in the text of the Nazguls, not in the ability ?
I don't think we have to bring a new keyword for only 2 event cards, and I prefer to keep the Resurrect ability for all Nazguls. We will also test the Ring of Thror.
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Not for specific keyword like in 11R226, and other cards in sets 11-19. The ability have to be explained in all cards (btw I will add this for Aid, but only for the Dwarven followers).
Hmmm, you are right, as far as the keyword needs to be explained. Ok for the explanation in the Dwarven followers from the Main deck, as Main Decks or Starter Decks serve some pedagogical functions. Lurtz Servant of Isengard doesn't belong to Starters but to Booster Packs, and doesn't explain the Archer keyword like Goblin Marksman does. So Roäc, Thráin, Beorn, Gwaihir, Old Thrush wouldn't need to explain.
I don't think we have to bring a new keyword for only 2 event cards, and I prefer to keep the Resurrect ability for all Nazguls. We will also test the Ring of Thror.
The idea is to create only 1 keyword for both effects. You can Retrieve both an event and a servant (and Sauron can retrieve a Dwarven Ring), but you can't Resurrect events (or Rings). The way I described the Retrieve keyword allows to perfectly absorb the Resurrect one, and that was my intention. Instead of 2 events using it, would be 2 events and 9 Nazgul, and perhaps some Orcs of the new Swarm Packs too.
Yes, I was thinking about a mechanism, which can use the Orcs in the main deck. So X minions is good, but maybe we also need a twilight reduction ? Maybe only in the text of the Nazguls, not in the ability ?
The Resurrect/Retrieve ability is something they lack in LOTR TCG. And they lack too the higher site disadvantage. Perhaps the rule should be the following: for each exertion, the twilight cost is reduced by 1.
General rule:
"Retrieve - X. (You may exert X minions to play this card from your discard pile with twilight cost -X.)"
The Witch King, for instance:
"Retrieve - 3. (You may exert 3 minions to play this minion from your discard pile with twilight cost -3.)"
So he'll cost only 5 from discard pile, and 3 exertions aren't a small cost really. You can exert minions to get fresh Nazgul from discard, and then exert those Nazgul to retrieve new ones. Number and strenght, but vulnerable to wounds (Kili, Dawn Take You All, losing skirmishes against non-damage bonus defenders)...
I like that kind of reduction.
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There's an important line that needs to be added to some of the Nazgul:
- "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] minions".
But there are 2 ways to make it shorter:
- "Wise allies can be assigned to [Wraith] minions."
- "Wise allies can be assigned to Nazgûl."
The long way "assign this minion to skirmish a companion" is used in cards of the 1st block like Ulaire Toldea 1R236, but cards of RotK Block like Gorgoroth Assassin say instead "assign this minion to a companion". So you can erase that word and perhaps reduce the lines it uses from 2 to 1. And "can" is a little bit shorter than "may", in case it helps. "Nazgul" is much shorter than "[Wraith] minion".
For the Nazgul, that line will be quite important.
Maybe the limitation has to be placed on Yazneg : "(or discard 2 followers if you can spot 5 followers)"? We have to think about all this.
I believe a playtest will be necessary to determine if having more than 3 FP followers in the board generates any considerable delay in the game (they must be drawn to hand, played, and then their specific cost must be paid). And YES, I like that idea on Yazneg as he's specialized in discarding followers.
An important point regarding development of followers: never should a FP follower just "Add [X]" to be transferred.
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Another way of reducing the twilight cost of The Nazgul is to directly include it in the text of some of them.
- "The twilight cost of each Nazgul is -1".
- "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1".
If 1 or 2 Nazgul have that small line added, then the wiser way of retrieving Nazgul would be to Retrieve or play from hand those Nazgul first, and then to Retrieve/play from hand the rest.
That's exactly the opposite of a Shadow action to add twilight, dependant on the number of [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions you can spot.
- "Shadow: Exert this Nazgul (or remove 2 doubts) and spot X [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions to add [X]".
- "Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul, remove a doubt and spot X [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions to add [X]". Or something similar.
It would be very funny and powerful to have those 2 skills present amongst the Nine... I'd vote yes.
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Ok I will talk with the other players tis evening. Thank you for your ideas ;).
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Ok I will talk with the other players tis evening. Thank you for your ideas ;).
It's an honour sir! I wonder what ideas, experiences and possibly conclusions you have reached...
I was thinking about the cost reduction in the Retrieve or Resurrect keyword. I believe it's well equilibrated now (X exertions to play a card with cost -X), as the Nazgul pack is meant to Beatdown and not to Swarm. When you resurrect/retrieve a Nazgul by playing 2 or 3 exertions, you get that Nazgul (cheaper by [2] or [3]) and those 2 or 3 minions too, and that might generate a swarm at some point. So we need to be careful to not reduce too much the cost of the Nazgul, or to increase the cost reduction this new keyword provides.
Just thoughts. I'm waiting to hear what you have in mind.
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I will probably go for these updates
- Kili and Fili are strength 6.
- Fili has the ability of Eowyn, LoR (Response : If a [Dwarven] companion is about to take a wound, exert Fili and add (1) to prevent that wound.)
- Gloin has a strength +3 bonus.
- The word Resurrect is far better for the Nazguls (it's more thematic). We are not sure about the ability, here is an exemple
Resurrect - X : During the Shadow phase, you may exert a [Wraith] minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.
(But this is a 4 text-line on a card :()
- The Orkish Marauder is great, and we don't want too many followers at the same time, maybe something like
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to make the Free Peoples player exhaust a [Dwarven] companion.
- Gandalf, Friend of Thorin : If Gandalf is skirmishing, ...
Is this ok ?
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I will probably go for these updates
- Kili and Fili are strength 6.
- Fili has the ability of Eowyn, LoR (Response : If a [Dwarven] companion is about to take a wound, exert Fili and add (1) to prevent that wound.)
- Gloin has a strength +3 bonus.
Proper strength to the Sons of Durin! Great!
- Gandalf, Friend of Thorin : If Gandalf is skirmishing, ...
As far as the card room allows, it might be a good addition. But I don't see it as a necessity.
- The word Resurrect is far better for the Nazguls (it's more thematic). We are not sure about the ability, here is an exemple
Resurrect - X : During the Shadow phase, you may exert a [Wraith] minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.
(But this is a 4 text-line on a card :()
Hmmm, actually the "Retrieve" keyword to label that characteristic in Dissension and If He Loses is completely unnecesary #-o. So OK for it to be named Resurrect. :up:
- Resurrect - X . (During the Shadow phase, you may exert a [Wraith] minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.)
The problem with only [Wraith] minions was described previously: you need to have a Nazgul in hand to play other Nazgul; there's not a single way of playing from discard a Nazgul if you lack one in play, so if you run out of Nazgul in hand you will have to wait until you draw another one IF there is any in draw deck (or play [Sauron] Ring of Thrór, or be at site 9) to continue the game with the [Wraith] culture. Not viable. So I'd remove the culture specification.
Besides, it doesn't need to specify the Shadow phase, as non-events cards can only be played in that phase unless a card allows to do so in other phases.
- Resurrect - X . (You may exert a minion twice to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.)
I'd prefer to exert X minions than to exert a minion twice. Small Nazgul should require only 1 exertion to be resurrected (and [4] -1 = [3] is a good cost), while big ones like the Witch King or Attea should reqire not less than 2. A fixed cost reduction of X independant of the number of exertions is in my opinion dangerous, the Witch King shouldn't really reduce his cost to [4] as in the current version. This shouldn't be a Swarm culture, but only Beatdown.
- Resurrect - X . (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile; Its twilight cost is -X.)
That may be written in an even shorter way:
- Resurrect - X . (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile with twilight cost -X.)
That's the shortest version I can suggest by now. And preserves the cost-effect-viability balance I try to include.
- The Orkish Marauder is great, and we don't want too many followers at the same time, maybe something like
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 followers to make the Free Peoples player exhaust a [Dwarven] companion.
I still think the specific Aid cost will naturally limit the total transferrable followers, and most if not all of them will be needed at different times of the game. 3 only is too low, and renders the [Gandalf] followers to little use. I'd raise that punishment trigger from 4 to 5, adding the specification of [Dwarven] followers (the Orc pack was pursuing only the Dwarven Company, and actually got terrified when they knew Beorn was near)...
When you play this minion, you may spot 5 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion.
The Shadow player chooses who gets exhausted. 4 or less [Dwarven] followers would be then the safe ground. Which still need a very specific and somewhat costly aid cost.
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Ok for the Orkish Marauder, but I prefer a stronger limitation with
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion.
So Beorn, Gwaihir and Old Thrush will not be affected ;).
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Ok for the Orkish Marauder, but I prefer a stronger limitation with
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion.
So Beorn, Gwaihir and Old Thrush will not be affected ;).
Much better than the current. So the FP player will have to choose well the Dwarf followers to have in the board. But there isn't a simple way for the FP player to discard a FP follower, there's Nori but that's after the Shadow phase effect of the Marauder and requires 2 exertions... So a follower discarding option might be a good altenative to add.
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may discard a [Dwarven] follower instead.
In absense of that discarding alternative, after playing the 3rd Dwarf follower the FP player will have to either refrain from playing a Dwarf follower he/she needs, or allow the Shadow player to easily exhaust his/her companions...
Hatred Rekindled and Host of Thousands will ensure the Marauder will be played and replayed often. The FP player will have to move through some sites in order to know what strategy the Shadow player will bring, and therefore what [Dwarven] followers will need to counter it. Discarding them is a necessity then, if there's a punishment.
By the way, the [Dwarven] culture specification kills a second bird with that stone: if there will be Shadow followers in an Extension, the Marauder would need to change it's text to not spot Shadow followers as trigger. Bravo!
I've got some strong ideas for Shadow [Dale] followers at least: Alfrid Lickspittle and Braga. Besides the Elven Shadow followers: Thranduil and Legolas...
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This text is a bit long. I prefer the one without an exit.
The FP player has to play the right [Dwarven] followers for the match-up, other followers also help Oin or Ori to be transferred. At site 9, all followers can be transferred to Bilbo to be sure to win.
There is also Dain (but only in a FP pack). Maybe change the cost of a card with discard a [Dwarven] follower ?
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Yes, I know it's a bit too long :(. It's a shame. Each time the phrase "The Free Peoples player may" is added, the texts gets horribly bulked.
The problem I see is the clogging and disabling that results when waiting until the Shadow player reveals enough of his/her strategy, to then starting to play up to 3 Dwarf followers. If you don't have a way to discard a [Dwarven] follower and you have only 3 safe slots for that, you will need to think and know very well what you are doing with those 3 scarce slots because there is no way back on your control (well, there's Nori but TOO expensive), or depends on a specific FP Pack (Dain, Iron Hills Army, Roäc).
That makes necessary to the FP player to have a way of discarding those followers that won't use, and preferably before the Orkish Marauder triggers (before Shadow phase). That leaves only the Fellowship phase (and "when the fellowship moves").
Thorin has plenty of room for an additional short and simple ability:
"Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to heal a companion."
Thorin is the most concerned in having plenty of Dwarf followers to use and therefore discarding one is expensive to himself, besides being one of the most concerned in not being easily exhausted (he's the main fighter). That's a good balance of pros and cons.
I believe Thorin's new ability is both simple and well-flavored; it reflects his role of protector (healing). Thorin is always present except when dead, that gives a strong viability. That should solve the problem.
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I prefer a single ability for each companion in the main deck. Even if it will be well balanced :(.
Maybe another card could be a bit change ?
To Me! O My Kinsfolk!
Spot a [Dwarven] companion (or discard a [Dwarven] follower) to play a [Dwarven] follower from your discard pile.
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The problem with To Me! O My Kinsfolk! is that it won't decrease the [Dwarven] followers, and that's important in case you have in your hand a specific follower you want to have on the board. It's actually not a bad improvement, as it allows to either play a follower, or switch a follower. But doesn't solve the problem completely.
I don't think Thorin should be considered just another Dwarf companion. He's the King of Durin's Folk in exile, or the High King of all Dwarven Houses if you prefer it that way. That skill is simple, short and balanced in gameplay, and strong in story flavor. It would be a short active ability to complement the short passive ability, and both are interdependant in requirements.
Besides, it would give an utility to a follower discarded that way.
If you still don't want to add a skill to a companion, you might broaden Balin's to "Exert Balin or discard a [Dwarven] follower in play to shuffle a Free Peoples card from your discard pile into your draw deck." The idea is to reduce the total count of Dwarf followers, not to replace one with another.
You still haven't said a word about the proposal for the Resurrect keyword:
Resurrect - X. (You may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile with twilight cost -X.)
That's the shortest and at the same time the most balanced version I could think of. For the reasons described at the last post about it.
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg89736.html#msg89736
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Ok for Balin, even if just replacing a follower would be another issue :
Exert Balin or discard a [Dwarven] follower in play to shuffle a Free Peoples event from your discard pile into your draw deck.
I'm not sure about the best way the Resurrect keyword must be. I prefer a specification of the phase, since cards like Spider Nest allow to play minions in the Assignment phase.
Resurrect - X. (During the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)
I don't know if it must be exert X minions, discard X cards from hand, return X minions in hand ...
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Ok for Balin, even if just replacing a follower would be another issue :
Exert Balin or discard a [Dwarven] follower in play to shuffle a Free Peoples event from your discard pile into your draw deck.
"Free Peoples Event" :(... I thought the change from "FP event" to "FP card" was fixed, and so I wanted to extend the cost possibilities but mantaining the recent changes on the effect. Balin needs to shuffle back any FP card to get back a discarded ally (Bert, Smaug), possession (Smaug, Demolition Troll), [Dwarven] artifact (Smaug, Wrath of the Dragon, [Sauron] Ring of Thrór) or non- [Dwarven] artifact like Sting or Glamdring ([Sauron] Ring of Thrór, William, Smaug)...
I hope Balin's text still recycles any FP card. And I'd prefer to see Thorin's protective (healing) side. He "discarded" Kili from the Company to protect both his life from the danger they were chasing and the Quest from being hindered. I know Kili isn't a follower, discarding a companion would be too powerful, that's not my intention nor it would solve the follower count problem.
Balin's ability costs an exertion, so if Thorin could heal that exertion by discarding a follower, no change to Balin's ability would be necessary at all, as Thorin would make the follower discarding an alternative cost.
I'm not sure about the best way the Resurrect keyword must be. I prefer a specification of the phase, since cards like Spider Nest allow to play minions in the Assignment phase.
Resurrect - X. (During the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)
But Spider Nest specifies it must be played from discard pile or draw deck. If a card said "Maneuver: Play a minion." then it must be a minion from hand (or a minion with Resurrect from discard pile, by paying the Resurrect cost). Every time a card says "play" another card, if it doesn't specify a location, that card must be played from hand. So Spider Nest isn't a valid example.
I know the lack of specification may confuse the new players :(. In case you want to prevent that confusion, "At the Shadow phase" is shorter than "During the Shadow phase".
Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)
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I don't know if it must be exert X minions, discard X cards from hand, return X minions in hand ...
1.- Return X minions to hand: I don't like the idea of returning minions, because a minion returned that way may get back to the board completely fresh, allowing this Beatdown culture to set up a strong Swarm if the twilight pool abounds (a Swarm not depending on the cards in hand). That Swarm would be invulnerable to direct wounding due to the fresh vitality of each minion. Apart from the fact Yazneg, Narzug and Orkish Sneak are too cheap to pay that cost over and over again...
- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may return X minions to your hand to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.) Quite long.
"Return X minions" is an option that uses more twilight than the others, but has the clear risk of an easy Swarm if the twilight pool is flooded. Without good options for the FP player to counter it.
2.- Exert X minions: Or "Exert a minion X times", are costs I like more. The wounds stay in play and therefore you will keep playing minions from discard if the twilight pool abounds, until the vitality runs out. Unfortunatley the easy Swarm can still be set if the twilight floods, but the FP player has more chances of countering it by direct wounding or some points of archery.
- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may exert X minions to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)
- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may exert a minion X times to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)
Kili and Battle of Azanulbizar can try to revert those eventual Swarms. Legolas might help too. But a Beatdwon culture shouldn't really have an easy option to pull swarms. This one uses more wounds and less twilight than the previous.
3.- Discard X cards from hand: That is actually a great option, frankly I believe it hits the nail! As it doesn't depend on cards in play, the Nazgul can appear even if you lack minions in hand, play or even draw deck. It has the natural limitation of the hand size, so assembling a Swarm will be extremely hard while keeping the Beatdown skirmishes going over and over again. By discarding X cards you interfere with Hatred Rekindled, and that's a good thing. The reduced twilight cost allows to play some Shadow cards from hand if you want to discard FP cards instead.
- Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may discard X cards from hand to play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -X.)
To prevent Swarms, the X in "Resurrect X" shouldn't be lower than 2 in almost every case. With the associated twilight cost reduction of -X, no change in the base attributes will be needed to counter the high Site Number. Some of the Nazgul might have abilities to draw more cards, to keep resurrecting Nazgul from discard... :up:
Beatdown is the clue here. We might need to keep thinking about new options and the impact each option would have ("Remove X doubts"?). But if we had to decide right now, I'd vote the "Discard X cards" option.
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I'm starting to worry about the level of complexity of some cards, and the creation of new keywords. So far I see Wise, Assailant, and now Resurrect...Do every Nazgul need to have this ability? How about creating a support area card with that ability? Or shadow follower? Perhaps the Witch-King could be a shadow follower with a text that is similar to resurrect? Or maybe just make the smaller Nazguls into followers, just like you did with the dwarves. Or could all Nazgul be shadow followers, then they can easily come back every turn? In a way, making them followers could make sense... they were just revived... someone had to go break into the tombs to revive them... now they came back and can follow that character. They also keep on following the Ring-bearer... Plus, having a shadow culture full of high-strength followers could end up creating a completely new type of beatdown strategy, which would be fun. Also, followers can mix well with the Orcs that are already in the main deck.
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Just wondering, is this going to become an actual game, like on gemp? Or is it just imaginary cards.
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Carl333: By now, most cards are printable to play with your friends if you want. The rules and .png cards are in http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr (http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr). We are working to polish details prior to add more Shadow cultures: Smaug support cards, Sauron culture and The Nazgul culture are quick to arrive...
There are 2 .pdf files to print them as a batch, you can see them here:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9063.msg88519.html#msg88519
Those .pdf files seem to be a bit outdated (Bard and The Master are now not [Gandalf] but Dale culture), but they are totally playable. You might wait for the updates to come prior to printing them...
The game is meant to be played as a board Draft Game instead of a TCG, read the rules first. Though it perfectly can be played with the traditional TCG rules anyway...
So it's far from being a bunch of imaginary cards. The idea is to have this game being played on Gemp. Thanks for your interest!
Cw0rk: Ideas and opinions are welcome, it's been a long while since someone else gave a suggestion. :up:
Wise and Assailant are unloaded keywords, therefore not more harming than Ranger or Valiant. The only new loaded keyword is Resurrect. And yes, every Nazgul will have it. But the idea is to have each Nazgul card explaining in italicized parenthesis the effect of that keyword (just like the Archer keyword is explained in Goblin Marksman), so new players shouldn't have a problem with it. As a loaded keyword it helps to label the concept, and to give a stronger flavor to the culture.
The problem with support area cards is the lack of spare card slots for the [Wraith] culture. The Nazgul Pack consists of 15 cards to be distributed (drafted) amongst the total players, and is part of a bigger Beatdown Pack of 40 cards (10 for Sauron and 15 for Smaug). Those 15 [Wraith] cards are distributed this way: 6 Nazgul have 2 copies each, while 3 have only one, and that's all. There's no room unfortunately for support cards like a condition to replay them, or for The Morgul Blade ("made for the-Witch-King-of-Ang-mar... and buried with him!")...
Given the small number of final [Wraith] cards per player, each must be a good standalone minion. The Resurrect keyword allows to replay them and make a single minion card last as long as you wish.
Your idea of Nazgul followers is quite interesting. It may be used in an Extension Set, I've been working on new Shadow follower proposals and never thought about Nazgul, so you have just opened a whole new field to think about. Thank you.
Anyway, we never see a Nazgul supporting anyone but himself, another Nazgul or Sauron. The Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur. So I think by now that those Nazgul followers should say "Bearer must be a Nazgul or Sauron", or perhaps a companion or Wise ally as the Shadow versions of Legolas and Thranduil (to be added in an Extension Set). Or give a stronger effect if being borne by those characters instead of Orcs.
About the tombs and the character that opened them... well, they seem as opened from the inside (01:11:01 in the Extended Edition at least, see the attached image).
- BEORN: "I remember a time when a great evil ruled these lands. One powerful, enough to raise the dead"...
- RADAGAST: "A human sorcerer could not summon such evil."
- GANDALF: "Who said it was human? The Nine only answer to one master. We've been blind, Radagast."
If I remember correctly, Tolkien stated in a letter that the Nazgul served Sauron because he held the Nine Rings after they were consumed by their power. So Sauron summoned them to wake from their tombs, no Orc nor lesser servant went to the High Fells in PJ's movies. It was either Sauron in presence, or Sauron's will.
At the time of The Quest of Erebor, The Nazgul weren't chasing the Ringbearer and Gandalf was desperately trying to keep Sauron away from the path tread by Thorin & Co (the existance of a Ringbearer was known by Sauron many years later, after capturing Gollum). They solely fought The White Council, for Gandalf's secret purpose. The "Wise" keyword was made to target The White Council for benefits or to allow them to skirmish against Sauron & the Nazgul; it's much shorter to say "Wise characters" or "Wise allies" than "Wizards, Galadriel and Elrond".
I'm not Enola, he has the last word about all things here. We will have to wait until he pronounces about your ideas. But I'm glad you gave your thoughts here. Keep on posting sir!
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Cw0rk: Ideas and opinions are welcome, it's been a long while since someone else gave a suggestion.
My pleasure. I've actually been looking at your work for a while, although I haven't been commenting much. I find it difficult to comment at the moment since I have tried the cards yet. I have to say that I love what you guys are doing, especially the idea of making this game a draft game.
Wise and Assailant are unloaded keywords, therefore not more harming than Ranger or Valiant.
I have to say that I like the idea of the Wise unloaded keyword, especially since it combine cards from different cultures. But what are these Assailant supposed to be? I think you are under-utilizing the Assailant keyword because from the list of cards, only 3 makes use of the keyword, Azog, Bats and the Troll. I think that in order to make it worthwhile to have that new keyword, other Assailant cards should be making use of that keyword.
About the tombs and the character that opened them... well, they seem as opened from the inside
Sorry, I haven't read the book. I guessed it wrong then. #-o
Anyway, we never see a Nazgul supporting anyone but himself, another Nazgul or Sauron. The Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur. So I think by now that those Nazgul followers should say "Bearer must be a Nazgul or Sauron", or perhaps a companion or Wise ally as the Shadow versions of Legolas and Thranduil (to be added in an Extension Set). Or give a stronger effect if being borne by those characters instead of Orcs.
You are right. I agree that Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur, but they were there at some point (at least in the movie), so it could still possibly make a bit of sense. Also, if you look at Saruman, Servant of Sauron, he can be supporting any minion.
The Resurrect keyword allows to replay them and make a single minion card last as long as you wish.
I think that keywords should be as simple as possible. I love keywords like Archer, Damage +X, or Defender +X, even Lurker, because they are simple to explain and do not involve too many mechanics like discarding or exerting. If you make a keyword for Resurrect, my suggestion is to make it as simple as possible.
Also, after looking at some of the cards you are making, it seems that pretty much every culture has a mechanic to play stuff from the discard pile. I understand that you have to do this in order to make it work for draft, but in a way, it makes things a bit redundant. In LOTR, playing stuff from discard pile was mostly reserved to Moria. Cultures should be different from one another, and that's one reason why I hope that you do something else with Nazgul.
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Sorry, I wasn't there the last week-end.
Durin's Heir :
I wasn't sure about the Balin "FP card", I talk about it with the playtesters, they found this not very thematic with Balin. Only FP event makes Balin still really good. We can reduce the discarding power of the new Shadows.
I prefer to change only the cost of an ability for the "discard of a [Dwarven] follower". The Thorin's ability you propose is too powerful.
Resurrect - X : Ok for the discard X cards in hand. Maybe even, discard X minions from hand (otherwise it will be too easy to play back Nazguls), the Shadow player can replace an Orc card by a Nazgul card.
I totally agree with you, with the small number of Nazgul cards, they must have an ability allowing them to be play back from the discard pile :up:.
About the Orkish Marauder, maybe his vitality could be only 2 (instead of 3), a Battle of Azanulbizar could then control this minion (or not with a Warg or [Moria] conditions), like Terrible & Evil and Enquea, LoM.
Carl333 :
I will see with MarcinS to put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp (as I did for the Multipath format). But the game must be fully tested before, MarcinS will not have the time to modify each card due to playtests.
It's a complete boardgame, not only dreamcards or starts of mechanisms.
I also have to upload all the pdf with the printable cards.
Cw0rk :
Cw0rk: Ideas and opinions are welcome, it's been a long while since someone else gave a suggestion.
My pleasure. I've actually been looking at your work for a while, although I haven't been commenting much. I find it difficult to comment at the moment since I have tried the cards yet. I have to say that I love what you guys are doing, especially the idea of making this game a draft game.
Thank you for your support :up:, I always appreciate remarks and new ideas on the game, like Durin's Heir said it ;).
You are right, the Resurrect keyword must be simple. Otherwise, we will make a simple different ability for each Nazgul.
The Assailant keyword is not fixed now, because this Shadow hasn't be tested or even discussed. Maybe we can do without this unloaded keyword.
I'm not a big fan of Shadow followers, but I agree that this a good idea for Nazguls. In this case, we have to create a FP ability which discards Shadow followers.
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Ok thanks, I was just wondering. I must say though these cards are amazing!
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Sorry, I wasn't there the last week-end.
Take the time you need, my friend ;).
Resurrect - X : Ok for the discard X cards in hand. Maybe even, discard X minions from hand (otherwise it will be too easy to play back Nazguls), the Shadow player can replace an Orc card by a Nazgul card.
I totally agree with you, with the small number of Nazgul cards, they must have an ability allowing them to be play back from the discard pile :up:.
I believe the twilight cost reduction in the Resurrect keyword might be removed to gain text room, if the base cost of each Nazgul is reduced by 1 to counter the site number increase. So [1] less and an abilty to be played from discard might be a proper advantage to counter the disadvantage of stopping to roam at Site 5 instead of Site 3.
[7] The Witch King.
[5] Ulaire Attea, Ulaire Toldea, Ulaire Enquea.
[4] Ulaire Cantea, Ulaire Nelya.
[3] Ulaire Otsea, Ulaire Lemenya, Ulaire Nertea.
Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may discard X cards from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.) at twilight cost -X.)
That way, the italicized explanation will be a bit shorter, and as our friend Cw0rk points out, the mechanics will be much simpler. 1 or 2 Nazgul might invest part of their free card room in a short line like "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1" or "Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul to add [2]" (which use 1 line in the graphic card), to make them more viable.
Don't forget the addition of a text line to allow The White Council to fight. The Witch King and 2 or 3 more should have it.
- "Wise allies can be assigned to Nazgûl."
- "Wise allies can be assigned to [Wraith] minions."
"Discard X minions" isn't a bad idea (prevents Swarms), as far as X is never bigger than 2, otherwise that Nazgul won't be played too much. A possible problem might be clogging, as a player trying to work with the Nazgul culture will have to pack a very high ratio of minions to be able to pay often the Resurrect cost.
Strong Nazgul like Enquea, Toldea and The Witch King (and anyone with a powerful, unbalancing text like Cantea, LoDG) should cost 2 minions, while the rest might get along well with only 1. Smaller Nazgul would cost the same or a bit more than Main Deck Orcs, roaming 2 more sites. And the risk of a Swarm would be almost completely removed, as should be. It has my vote! :up:
Resurrect - X. (At the Shadow phase, you may discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.)
"Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul to draw 2 cards" might be a nice ability to add.
If we could get rid of the "During/At the Shadow phase" part, much text room would be freed, but new players will need some guidance... :(
I wasn't sure about the Balin "FP card", I talk about it with the playtesters, they found this not very thematic with Balin. Only FP event makes Balin still really good. We can reduce the discarding power of the new Shadows.
I prefer to change only the cost of an ability for the "discard of a [Dwarven] follower". The Thorin's ability you propose is too powerful.
A verily thematic ability for Balin would be to take an event into hand like Barliman Butterbur PPP does, but that would be too much. My point is, the card goes back to the draw deck and might never be drawn again.
Thorin's healing skill is powerful. But not extremely powerful, as you will have only 6 [Dwarven] follower cards in the Main Deck to discard (plus perhaps Thráin and/or Roäc), you must discard them from play and then pay the associated twilight cost (Bombur is pretty expensive), and you must keep some of them in your power to survive. So 3 or 4 wounds healed per game will be the average I guess, and unlike King In Exile won't be constant nor costless. Still powerful, but not OP. Can help to counter Archery and Beatdown.
Perhaps it should be changed to "Fellowship: Exert Thorin (or discard a [Dwarven] follower in play) to shuffle a non-event Free Peoples card from your discard pile into your draw deck". He was the most interested in possessions/artifacts and followers, so I believe it's thematic; along with Balin you would recycle any FP card. A bit too long maybe...
About the Orkish Marauder, maybe his vitality could be only 2 (instead of 3), a Battle of Azanulbizar could then control this minion (or not with a Warg or [Moria] conditions), like Terrible & Evil and Enquea, LoM.
The problem with the Marauder is it triggers during the Shadow phase, so a Maneuver event won't be able to stop it. Then the Marauder can be changed from "When you play this minion, spot 4 [Dwarven] followers..." to "Maneuver: Exert this minion and spot 4 [Dwarven] followers...". Just a bit longer, "Dwarf companion" can be changed to "[Dwarven] companion" to gain some room. And YES, reduce the vitality from 3 to 2.
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How about making the Nazguls' twilight cost higher, or removing fierce, and:
Resurrect (During the shadow phase, you may play this card from your discard pile)
That would be even more simple...
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Removing fierce isn't a good idea. But if the cost is the same as in LOTR TCG with a site number higher by 2 (their site number is 5 here, Mirkwood), and with few possibilities of a twilight flood, then assembling a Swarm with this Beatdown deck won't be so wasy after all: the cheapest twilight cost they have is [4], while the most expensive Orc in the Main Deck costs [4] too (Watchful Orc)...
[4] 3x Watchful Orc (Strength 8)= 3x
[3] 4x Goblin Footman, 2x Orkish Marauder (Strength 8) = 6x
[2] 3x Orkish Sneak, 2x •Narzug (Strength 6) = 5x
[1] 2x •Yazneg (Strength 5) = 2x
After further study of the facts, I don't see too factible the assembling of a Swarm: the safe companions number is 6 here instead of 5 (Orkish Marauder is Greed but spotting 7 comps), followers can help Bilbo or anyone if needed, and there are only 16 Orcs in the Main Deck plus 5 cards to replay Orcs. Nazgul might reinforce the Orcs but their cost is much higher, and they roam too much so the fellowship has a really good time to set up (and Site 2 helps with weapons). There aren't Ents here to flood the twilight pool...
Nazgul are only a part of the Beatdown Pack, but Smaug is expensive and discards some Orcs to do his tricks, while Sauron is expensive too and alike Smaug the only minion of his culture. These Resurrecting Nazgul might be very dangerous with [Moria] Orcs feeding the twilight pool, but the chances are very low (and 4 players or more would be needed).
Therefore, Swarming chances are very low in my opinion, using LOTR TCG costs for the Nazgul, nothing more and nothing less. If we want to reduce to zero those possibilities, adding to 2 or 3 Nazgul a line like "At the start of the maneuver phase, wound each Orc" (only an example, but this kills a combo with [Moria] Orcs) should solve all the peril.
Cw0rk's version takes 2 card lines only. Looks very promising! :up:
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I find it difficult to comment at the moment since I have tried the cards yet. I have to say that I love what you guys are doing, especially the idea of making this game a draft game.
You are welcome my fellow! Actually I haven't tried the cards too, I ain't got anyone to play them :(. But even from a purely theoretical environment ideas can be worked and suggested. Enola and his friends test the cards, so anyone can post an idea and turn it into card suggestions even if it's pure theory.
I have to say that I like the idea of the Wise unloaded keyword, especially since it combine cards from different cultures.
We needed a way to shorten the text lenght of cards involving The White Council. And to exclude Mirkwood and lesser Rivendell elves. At first the idea was to write "Wizard and Elf allies" or "[Gandalf] and [Elven] characters", but Thranduil and Legolas are far from being appropriate for The Wise...
I wish Decipher had made more cross-cultured unloaded keywords than only Ranger (and Fellowship at Ages End), which comprises only Arwen, one version of Glorfindel and [Gondor] men. Valiant keyword should have included some versions of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and perhaps Gandalf...
Sorry, I haven't read the book. I guessed it wrong then. #-o
The resurrection of the Nazgul is completely Jackson's, they never die in Tolkien's writings (until Eowyn of course); they just withdrew and disappeared for a time. The Battle at Dol Guldur is not described at all by Tolkien and it's free to interpretations, therefore some say The Nazgul were present while others argue that Saruman's message to Gandalf in FOTR, carried by Radagast, contradicts that:
"I have an urgent errand," he said. "My news is evil." Then he looked about him, as if the hedges might have ears. "Nazgûl," he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."
Indeed Tolkien never mentioned in The Hobbit the exact reasons why Gandalf leaves Thorin's Company, he leaves due to important things he must attend... and later just reappears.
You are right. I agree that Orcs are not part of the Battle at Dol Guldur, but they were there at some point (at least in the movie), so it could still possibly make a bit of sense. Also, if you look at Saruman, Servant of Sauron, he can be supporting any minion.
The Orcs present in the movie were Sauron's forces mustered for immediate battle at Erebor. A single Orc can be seen left at Dol Guldur who strikes a jailed Gandalf, he looks like the same Orc that Dwalin beats at Azanulbizar after the Dwarves regroup, perhaps survived but given Dwalin's movements and face expression I believe it's his twin brother only ;).
Sauron has and some of the Nazgul will have a text line to allow The Wise to fight [Sauron] and [Wraith] minions, so perhaps there might be some [Wraith] Dol Guldur Orcs and the Nazgul followers might be borne by "Sauron or a [Wraith] minion"... perhaps in an Extension.
I don't believe followers should have access to any kind of cross-cultured gameplay, they should specify bearers according to the story (like the Shadow versions of Thranduil and Legolas we were working time ago, which can be borne by only Dwarves). Saruman Servant of Sauron came when Decipher just couldn't depart anymore from Tolkien's story, or even from Jackson's loose interpretation. They even contradicted some rules of their own when made Whisper in the Dark (bearable only by followers, but the Followers rule states they cannot bear other cards)...
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I'm not sure about a so automatic Resurrect keyword. We have to playtest all this and the proposition will probably be something like :
Resurrect X - At the Shadow phase, you may discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.
Or just
Shadow : Discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.
It's very tricky with all the Nazgul abilities (some will be changed), which can return Orcs in hand ^^.
I'm still working on this Balin/Thorin/discarding followers thing and I'm not sure if it's the good way to handle it.
After some tests today, I'm almost sure Balin will only bring back FP events. We will reduce the discarding power of Smaug's conditions and Sauron's Ring.
Thank you all ;).
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I hope it's not too late to say these points...
I will see with MarcinS to put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp (as I did for the Multipath format). But the game must be fully tested before, MarcinS will not have the time to modify each card due to playtests.
If the Draft Game is included in Gemp, it will be likely with a constructed TCG game format: all cards available to choose, and up to 4x per card. Therefore when designing cards and cultures we must foresee any possible combination of the cards as both a viable Draft Game and a constructed TCG...
I mentioned that Cw0rk's totally free Resurrect keyword would be dangerous along with Moria, but in the Draft Game that almost can't happen. That combo will happen in Gemp, so Resurrect must have an anti-Swarm cost.
Shadow: Discard X minions from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.
Hmmm, this version uses only 2 lines. Quite clever, though a bit less tasteful... So I vote for this option.
As it frees more card room, it will fit better the needs of the culture. Those needs are 3: an abilty to play each of them from discard, a distinctive skill, and some 3 or 4 of them must have a line to allow "Wise allies may be assigned to Nazgûl". Please don't forget about that key line...
I'm still working on this Balin/Thorin/discarding followers thing and I'm not sure if it's the good way to handle it.
After some tests today, I'm almost sure Balin will only bring back FP events. We will reduce the discarding power of Smaug's conditions and Sauron's Ring.
Perhaps Balin or Thorin's skills aren't the best way to reduce the total number of [Dwarven] followers, but there must be a way to do so.
I believe there must be also a way to shuffle back any FP card, as Sting, Glamdring and many useful cards may be discaded by Shadow cards, and Sting at least is clue. Balin suffling back any card would solve that problem...
Thank you all ;).
You are welcome! :)
And please don't forget about the idea of changing the Orkish Marauder to exhaust Dwarves as a Maneuver action instead of when playing at Shadow phase (to have Battle of Azanulbizar or Dawn Take You All as a counter)...
From: "When you play this minion, spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a Dwarf companion."
To: "Maneuver: Exert this minion and spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a [Dwarven] companion."
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Dawn Take You All is a skirmish event. I really prefer
"When you play this minion, spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a Dwarf companion."
If we put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp, it could be played as a Sealed game, probably 5 boosters of 13 cards instead of only 3 boosters in a Draft game.
I will find something new for Balin or Thorin.
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I really prefer "When you play this minion, spot 4 [Dwarven] followers to exhaust a Dwarf companion."
My point with changing it from Shadow phase to Maneuver was to allow your idea of using Battle of Azanulbizar as a viable counter to Orkish Marauder. I mean this quote:
About the Orkish Marauder, maybe his vitality could be only 2 (instead of 3), a Battle of Azanulbizar could then control this minion (or not with a Warg or [Moria] conditions), like Terrible & Evil and Enquea, LoM.
Dawn Take You All is a skirmish event.
Hmmmm... you are right #-o. I always thought it was a Maneuver one, don't know why... :-[
If we put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp, it could be played as a Sealed game, probably 5 boosters of 13 cards instead of only 3 boosters in a Draft game.
That's actually a great idea for Leagues, to emulate the feeling and gameplay of the Draft Game.
But in casual games that would take too long, so it must be a Contructed TCG environment where you can start a game with a previously assembled deck, with perhaps some cards restricted to only 1 copy (by adding to the R-list)...
I will find something new for Balin or Thorin.
The problems are not in Thorin and Balin, but in the lack of mechanisms to 1. reduce the [Dwarven] follower count (given the current Marauder) and to 2. recycle discarded non-event cards like Sting, Elrond or Glamdring...
Balin and Thorin are indeed well as they are, but I thought they might be also the solution given their strong and frequent presence in the game.
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For Thorin, I think it could be :
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to place a [Dwarven] artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
Balin, AWINL or any action searching in the main deck may then shuffle the draw deck.
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Great! :up: It solves the [Dwarven] followers problem, providing an useful ability.
I don't have any problem with "place beneath your draw deck" instead of "shuffle into your draw deck". Many cards can shuffle the deck: Bilbo Collector of Treasures, Gandalf (except Leader of Dwarves), Balin, AWINL, Wizard Staff, Eagles Are Coming, Emeralds of Girion, Old Thrush, Thráin, Thrór's Heirlooms, Roäc...
Emeralds of Girion and Thranduil will have more usefulness with Thorin retrieving [Dwarven] artifacts. Great again! :up:
But if it were ANY artifact instead of only [Dwarven], it would solve the problem of Sting being discarded. The main problems with Shadow discarding I believe are Sting and Glamdring: events have Balin, non-Dwarf characters like Bard or Elrond have AWINL, followers have [Gandalf] Eagles Are Coming and [Dwarven] To Me! O My Kinsfolk!. Now [Dwarven] artifacts will have Thorin. So only possessions, non- [Dwarven] artifacts and Dwarf characters won't have a way of retrieving them to play or draw deck, and Sting and Glamdring are key cards...
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to place a Free Peoples artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
Enough to solve both issues. Keep in mind the cost is quite expensive.
The Orkish Marauder can very well preserve its current text, though I'd like to have it reduce its vitality to 2 as you said, to have Battle of Azanulbizar as a counter to the "Spot 7 companions and remove [2]" ability (like Terrible and Evil countering Shotgun Enquea)...
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I just had an idea for resurrect.
Resurrect: When this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead.
Positive point:
- Simpler mechanic (no need to discard a minion from hand, search through discard pile and think about what to play from there)
- Add more variety to the game which already contains a lot of cards in every culture that plays stuff from discard pile
- No swarm issue
Negative point
- A lot of shuffling involved... but it wouldn't be more time consuming that searching in the discard pile every turn to play minions.
Oh, and I don't like the word "resurrect" much... First, it makes me think too much of religion. Second, resurrect is a verb and most keywords are adjectives or nouns (fierce, valiant, enduring, ranger, tale). Third, as Durin pointed out earlier, Nazguls dont resurrect in the book. I would like to suggest an alternative, but sadly I can't think of one at the moment.
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For Thorin, I prefer only [Dwarven] artifacts, since Thorin doesn't want to interfer in other cultures's businesses. It's not a big problem if Sting is discarded (and only the Ring, a Troll and maybe the Big Smaug can discard it).
I know the "Resurrect" keyword sounds too religious, I don't like it too. Maybe we can make the replaying ability of the Nazgul without a keyword... and so we will have many different ways to play back Nazguls:
Response: When this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead.
Shadow: Exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.
Maneuver: Discard a minion from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.
Another point : I made no lore text now for the new Shadows, if you have propositions for all of them I will take them ;).
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For Thorin, I prefer only [Dwarven] artifacts, since Thorin doesn't want to interfer in other cultures's businesses. It's not a big problem if Sting is discarded (and only the Ring, a Troll and maybe the Big Smaug can discard it).
In The Desolation of Smaug, Thorin contemplates the Dwarvish Windlance in Lake-town... in a possible Extension Set the Windlance might be added (Dwarven or Dale?).
Hmmmm, it's true that Thorin doesn't take part in the bussiness of other cultures, except that Bilbo in not a representative of the Shirefolk but instead the Burglar of his Company. So perhaps it might be "to place a [Dwarven] or [Shire] artifact" beneath the draw deck... excluding Gandalf but that's alright. And Sting is clue against Gollum and Orkish Sneak threatening him over and over again... ([Sauron] Ring of Thrór can discard Sting, while Sauron will make Gollum/Orkish Sneak fierce.)
Auctioneer: "Who is this person you pledged your service to? Thorin Oakenshield?"
Bilbo: "He... he was my friend."
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to place a [Dwarven] or [Shire] artifact from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
Maybe we can make the replaying ability of the Nazgul without a keyword... and so we will have many different ways to play back Nazguls:
Response: When this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead.
Shadow: Exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.
Maneuver: Discard a minion from hand to play this minion from your discard pile.
OK for replaying Nazzies without a keyword. :up:
- "Maneuver: Discard a X minion(s) from hand to play this minion from your discard pile."
Quite interesting. Better in Maneuver than in Shadow, if a FP maneuver action adds twilight like transferring Thráin or playing an event (Lore of Imladris, Ancestral Knowledge, Former Herald, Skilled Negociator), then more or stronger Nazgul can come to the party. That helps too to compensate their high site number.
But please note that you must have a minion in play at the end of the Shadow phase to have a maneuver phase...
I'd prefer to have the cost for the strongest of the Nazgul to be a bit higher, discarding 2 minions instead of 1. Those Nazgul would be in my opinion everyone with a cost of 6 or more, and anyone with a greatly disruptive skill like Cantea LoDG (the one who discards weapons) or Nertea MoDG. Everyone else with a cost of 4 or 5 will be good by discarding only 1 minion.
- "Response: When If this card is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead."
"If" is shorter than "When", as a response action. Not bad at all, can assemble strong Shadows for the latter sites, and you don't have to worry about decking out. It would work better with cards that allow you to play from draw deck, or with Hatred Rekindled discarding the draw deck faster (in a mixture of Ork and Nazgul Shadow)...
- "Shadow: Exert 2 minions to play this minion from your discard pile.
Hmmm, I don't like too much this one because of the potential to assemble Swarms (if you have enough twilight): you exert 2 guys to play a Nazgul, but that Nazgul comes fresh so the cycle can go on as long as there's pool. Peril and Spied From Above prevent that problem by exhausting the new minion, and that is both VERY costly and much longer in text... Not good options here.
Still, might be used in some Nazgul. But in every Nazgul would be disastrous.
Perhaps each of those 3 abilities should be used by 3 different Nazgul...
Another point : I made no lore text now for the new Shadows, if you have propositions for all of them I will take them ;).
Lore text depends on card room, so it's unlikely a Nazgul will have one. The Assailants and the Archers have plenty, that's a good thing. But the title and lore text must be in accordance with the gameplay. We must first discuss the general strategy of those 2 cultures...
After being discussed, I will gladly work on suggestions for the lore text.
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Sauron and Gollum are in different Beatdown packs so they can't be in play at the same time.
Ok, sure these abilities are for different [Wraith] cards. I will change them soon.
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Are there any other problems on the actual cards (not the new Shadows packs) ? I will print the definitive cards soon.
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My friend Enola, I'm sorry for not being able to answer sooner. I've been a bit busier and dizzier than usually...
Are there any other problems on the actual cards (not the new Shadows packs) ? I will print the definitive cards soon.
- Rhudaur is a vast country, I'd change the name to "Rhudaur Plains" or something similar.
- Perhaps Jail should explicitly exclude Bilbo. I know the rules don't allow to discard or stack Bilbo in the Hobbit Draft Game (or the Ringbearer in LOTR TCG), but some players may believe it's still possible. To avoid confusion, "Response: If a companion (except Bilbo) is exhausted after...".
I don't see any other problem.
Sauron and Gollum are in different Beatdown packs so they can't be in play at the same time.
That's right, Sauron won't meet Gollum very often, but the Orkish Sneak is in the Main Deck and Sauron can make it fierce, which is very problematic if the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór discards Sting: Bilbo (strength 3) will fight the Sneak (strength 6) twice, so will add a doubt to discard it. And The One Ring can't protect him from that (it requires a doubt + another doubt for each wound = 3 doubts)...
That combo will be really powerful, as the Sneak has a strong presence (3x) and the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór can retrieve 2 of them for free AND discard Sting, so at least 2 doubts will be added if Bilbo doesn't have 2 pumps to prevent his overwhelming twice (or more if Hatred Rekindled/Host of Thousands plays the 3rd Sneak). And that combo can't be countered by replaying/recycling Sting as I proposed with Thorin...
So I see 2 simple options to restrain that combo, without changing anything in the Orkish Sneak nor Bilbo: 1. The One Ring can add a new base strength bonus of +1; 2. the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór should be changed from "discard non-Ring artifacts" to "discard non- [Shire] artifacts".
Option 1 can compensate the smaller vitality bonus of this One Ring in respect of ATAR. It would end up as a semisum of ATAR and The Ruling Ring.
Option 2 would allow Sauron to discard FP Rings, but that would include only Narya (as The One Ring is [Shire] and the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór can't be in play). If Nenya and Vilya are added in Extension Sets then they will be discardable, and that isn't in accordance with the fact Sauron didn't take Gandalf's Ring when he took him as prisoner. Plus, there are no more [Shire] artifacts to add.
If you decide to make a change and there aren't more options to ideate, I'd vote for #1.
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I will let Rhudaur like this, I just send all the cards to the printer ;).
Ok I will change the Sauron and Nazguls Shadows ^^. I think we can put all Nazguls in one copy and a condition in 3x which can bring the Nazgul back from the discard pile. And 3x a Sword for the Nazguls.
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My fellow Enola, I found this today but don't know when you added it:
"A big thanks to Durin's Heir for all his help and support during the whole developpement of the game."
It has been such an honour my friend! I must thank you instead, for allowing me to participate in this development of such a nice representation of such lovely story. :)
Someday I will watch the movies with my grandchildren and play with them this good invention, and remember the days when we were squeezing our brains out to get funny and proper mechanics...
I think we can put all Nazguls in one copy and a condition in 3x which can bring the Nazgul back from the discard pile. And 3x a Sword for the Nazguls.
That can be a good solution. I like it! :up: Then they would mimick the Troll Shadow: 3 conditions, 3 weapons and 9 minions.
But then at least 2 points present in the Troll culture must be assured with the Nazgul:
1. Trolls have a way to protect their much-needed replaying-condition (Bert). Perhaps here the idea may be portrayed as the condition having an ability to "resurrect" itself: "During the Shadow phase, you may play this condition from your discard pile."
[3] Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die [Wraith]
Condition • Support Area
During the Shadow phase, you may play this condition from your discard pile.
Shadow: Discard a minion from hand to play a Nazgul from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Return your Orc to your hand to make a minion strength +2.
"...Who, above all else, desire power."
6 card lines, plus 1 for the lore. Given the available card room, I added a Skirmish ability, but can be replaced by any other skill like "Wise allies may be assigned to [Wraith] minions." The idea is to take advantage of that free card room and relief the card room of the Nazgul minions a little.
I believe the text and the title fit the story very well, as they become undead servants by the power of their Rings, and are brought back to life in the movies by the domain Sauron had upon their Rings.
2. Each Troll is very strong and disruptive as a single minion. They have a low cost (twilight + site number + "discard an Orc") and have good strength, pretty high vitality and are fierce. Besides their disruptive skills.
If you want to preserve the base attributes of the LOTR TCG Nazgul (except for the Site Number), you can counter those relatively weak attributes with devastating passive and active skills; they will have plenty of room now. Keep in mind the twilight cost and site number of almost every minion in the Hobbit Draft Game is very low (Gundabad Orcs are more or less [Sauron] Orcs but with Site Number -3), so the Nazgul must have means to manufacture twilight or reduce twilight cost.
An important point here, as each Nazgul will have only 1 copy, their abilities must be a bit redundant: 2 or 3 Nazgul must have the same goals but achieve them in different ways. If hypothetically a strength pump was the case:
- "Skirmish: Exert 2 minions to make a [Wraith] minion strength +2"
- "Skirmish: Return your Orc to your hand to make a [Wraith] minion strength +2"
- "Skirmish: Discard 2 cards from hand to make a [Wraith] minion strength +2"
Or twilight addition / cost reduction:
- "Shadow: Exert this minion and spot X [Wraith] minions to add [X]"
- "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1"
- "Shadow: Exert 2 minions to add [2]"
If 3 Nazgul have a strength pump skill, then 1/3 of them would cover that aspect and that's the proportion you used in the Troll culture. Now they will have plenty of card room for 2 or 3 skills each, so you can distribute a single goal in different strategical combinations...
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And 3x a Sword for the Nazguls.
In respect of those 3x weapons, what weapon are you going to use? There is the Morgul Blade in An Unexpected Journey, and there are those different armaments each Nazgul wielded in the Battle at Dol Guldur: maces, swords, axes, spears, lances... the Witch King indeed uses a staff (he's the one on the right when Elrond arrives, and the one who stands at the middle and front of the Nine when Sauron gathers them). Those weapons may be depicted by means of a generic weapon like the "Iron-Forged Weapon" does in the Dale culture: "Spectral Weapon", "Weapon of Dol Guldur/Minas Morgul", "Weapon of the Undead"...
Well, watching again that scene but at slow pace I started to notice something completely unexpected: the Nazgul swap their weapons. For instance, Saruman defeats some 2 or 3 Nazgul and one of them drops his broadsword, and another Nazgul (apparently The Witch King) takes that broadsword before it touches the floor to fight Saruman... See the attached images.
We might take that idea of a weapon that falls from one's hand to another one's, and turn it into a response ability. "Response: If bearer is killed, transfer this weapon to another Nazgul". That skill would be very useful to protect a smaller Nazgul, or a Nazgul that gives a bonus to the rest ("Each Nazgul is strength +1").
Cw0rk's version of the now defunct Resurrect keyword might work well too with weapons: "Response: If this weapon is about to be discarded, shuffle it into your draw deck instead."
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Here is the last changes on the new Shadows ^^, especially Nazguls.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/
Tell me what you think about it.
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Overall I like what you did with the Nazguls. Here are some suggestions:
For Witch-King, damage +1 until the end of the regroup phase might be better.
I think that Cantea and Enquea should not have the same game text. I also think that Nelya and Nertea's game texts are a bit too similar. I like the idea of playing a Sauron minion though.
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The Nazgul [Wraith] Culture:
I like the graphic design, and although the game mechanics still require some adjustment, they look very good. :up:
The synergy of the Dol Guldur Blade and He Is Summoning His Servants looks very clever. It gives the Goblin Footman a good place in a Nazgul deck. Anyway, you will need to play a Nazgul from hand in order to (play the Dol Guldur Blade and then) replay that condition, which isn't a problem at site 9 but can be troublesome if you run out of Nazzies before that. But each culture must have some weakness. :up:
Another very clever point of He Is Summoning His Servants is the line that allows the Wise to fight them. A great reason for the FP player to not discard it. Bravo! =D>
Nelya looks as the strongest of them all. Retrieving Sauron or the Ring of Thrór to hand is just priceless.
Lemenya is, on the other hand, useless. He can exert only once, and the Orc he'll return to hand will cost often the same or more than those [2] that will be added (I know that Orc can be discarded to play a Nazzie from discard at - [2], but is still very weak). Try this instead: "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1" or "Shadow: Exert 2 Nazgul to add [2]" (given their high site and twilight numbers, having 2 on the board won't be so easy). Or raise those [2] to [3] or [4], he can exert only once...
The response action of Cantea and Enquea is clearily overpowered. I'd change it to "Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire XXXXXX to exert a companion (except Bilbo)". Otherwise you will be able to exhaust a fresh Thorin with only Enquea + Nelya/Otsea/Lemenya, in the Shadow phase :cop:. Totally support Cw0rk's point here, their skill shouldn't be exactly the same, I think one of them should force the Free Peoples player to choose who gets exerted, or even allow the Shadow player to exert an ally.
- "Each time an Orc returns to your hand, you may exert Ulaire XXXXXX to make the Free Peoples player exert a companion."
- "Each time an Orc returns to your hand, you may exert Ulaire XXXXXX to exert an ally; the Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions instead."
For Witch-King, damage +1 until the end of the regroup phase might be better.
Until the regroup phase would be too much with high strength fierce minions like The Witch King, Attea and Toldea.
I think that Cantea and Enquea should not have the same game text. I also think that Nelya and Nertea's game texts are a bit too similar. I like the idea of playing a Sauron minion though.
There will be only 1 copy of each Nazgul to be drafted, so the same game mechanic must be present in several of them in order to have enough presence. 3x is a good number for that purpose.
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Thank you Cw0rk and Durin's Heir for your great ideas and suggestions ;).
I just modify all this here : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/
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Thank you Cw0rk and Durin's Heir for your great ideas and suggestions ;).
I just modify all this here : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Shadows/
I love all the changes you made. Perhaps you could make Cantea wound allies instead of exert?
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The Nazgul [Wraith] Culture:
Ulaire Attea: Attea's skill worries me a lot. The FP player should have a way to prevent Orcs from triggering Nazgul skirmish skills, and that should be killing them before they can be returned to hand: assigning strong dwarves (with damage bonuses if needed) against Orcs and resolving those skirmishes first. But if Attea's skill lasts until the regroup phase, he can ditch each Orc in the board before the first skirmish ends in order to pile up enormous strength to 1 or 2 Nazgul, and the only counters to that are Kili and Dawn Take You All. More or less...
Besides, +4 at a forest site might be too much, moreover considering he's strength 12 and with +4 would overwhelm Elrond or any Wizard without much problem. It's a good idea to give the Watchful Orc an use with the Nazgul, but +3 at a forest should be enough.
"Skirmish: Return an Orc to your hand to make a [Wraith] minion strength +2 (or +3 at a forest)". Until the end of that skirmish.
Ulaire Enquea and Ulaire Cantea: Enquea and Cantea are still a bit overpowered in my opinion. The problem happens with the response trigger. With the same trigger you can use the response action as far as you can exert, and that's too much.
With the [Wraith] condition and at site 5 or higher, Enquea and Cantea will cost respectively [4] and [3] from discard, while Nelya, Lemenya and Otsea can return an Orc to hand during Shadow phase and each costs [3], [2] and [2] from discard. The Orc will cost [1] or [2]. So for a total of [7] twilight or a bit more and 2 Orcs discarded from hand, Enquea will exert the Company 3 times per site (and Lemeya can add [4], to make the cost even more ridiculous). The same effect as 3x Under the Watching Eye. Same happens with Cantea exerting 2 allies, or 1 ally twice, per site.
If it were an "Each time" action instead of a "Response:", that problem wouldn't occur:
"Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Cantea to exert an ally."
"Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to make the Free Peoples player exert a companion."
The Smaug Non-Culture:
There's a little misspelling in Twisted Gold of Dragon: it says "Men allies may...", but should say "Man allies..." (the singular form). Everything else seems fine.
The Sauron [Sauron] Culture:
The new version of Sauron allows him to assign himself to a companion (says "exert Sauron to assign a minion..." instead of "another minion"), and that's a bit too powerful in my opinion. He will need the Ring of Thrór to fight so it won't be so easy, but with the Ring he'll discard an artifact (let's say, Glamdring or Orcrist) and exhaust his huge 5 vitality points to overwhelm or kill by wounds 1 or 2 companions... I'd rather add the "another" word and prevent that problem.
Perhaps Jail should be changed a little. "To play, spot a [Sauron] or [Wraith] card". There are too few [Sauron] cards in the Draft to spot (10, -2x Jail, -2x Ring of Thrór = 6 only for 2 or more players).
Anyway, I like the other changes made to Sauron and the Ring of Thrór. Sauron now needs the Last of the Seven to show up and that's a great flavour addition, and gives the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór more importance; besides, now Sauron has a lore text and that's always a nice thing. The Ring of Thrór now can't discard Sting nor bring back 2 Orkish Sneaks and that's a good thing for Bilbo. :up:
Another great point you achieved with the new [Sauron] Ring of Thrór is that it can't recover 2 Nazgul from discard pile, and therefore the only 2 ways to play a Nazgul from discard are site 9 and the [Wraith] condition. That's very important if now Sauron and the Nazgul minions won't have a text to allow Wise allies to fight. Having Sauron (+ Ring) and 2 Nazgul without a [Wraith] condition to allow Elrond and the other Wise fellows to fight them would be a great dissaster to Thorin's Company.
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You are right about Ulaire Enquea and Ulaire Cantea. I will change this.
We will test the +4 at a forest for Attea first ;).
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The Archers Pack:
As an overall review, I think you are trying to gather too much things together in this pack: Bolg's Army and Bolg's Hunting Party are very different themes in the movies and I believe they shouldn't mix. In the book, Bolg's Army is assembled from all corners and Goblin strongholds of the Misty Mountains and is gathered at Mount Gundabad, so those Orcs might have the Moria or Gundabad culture.
In the film, we see 2 armies: Bolg's Army of Gundabad and Azog's Army of Dol Guldur. Only Bolg's Army is gathered at Gundabad. The Gundabad forces are Skirmishers, while the Dol Guldur ones are Besiegers (siege Trolls). So it would make sense to give Bolg's Army the Gundabad or Moria culture, and Azog's one the Sauron culture. Good old-fashioned [Sauron] Orcs... that would be cool.
In respect of Orc Archers, we can see a lot of them at Goblin-town and later at the Barrels part there is Bolg's Hunting Party (actually it's Azog's Party after the Wooded Cliff escape, with another leader), but after that there are few Orc archers even at the Battle of the Five Armies. So why should the specialized Archers be the main force in Bolg's Army? I'm not against strong skirmishers that happen to be archers too (that would be great), but the Specialized Archers theme should be portrayed in another Shadow Pack in my opinion.
And the Morgul Arrow doesn't belong at all to the Battle of the Five Armies; the same goes with the Stone Giants in the Assailants Pack, and indeed with the Bats (they belong instead to Bolg's Gundabad Army). They are a waste of card room for the proper Swarm themes.
But if things go on as they are, here's my review in bigger detail:
- 3x • Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army : Cost (4). [Gundabad] Minion. Orc. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Archer. At the start of the archery phase, you may exert an unwounded companion for each other [Gundabad] archer you spot. Archery: Discard an Orc to make the minion archery total +1.
The passive ability is excessively powerful. Most unwounded companions have 3 vitality points, so bringing them all to 2 will leave them only 1 vitality point to confront those huge amounts of arrows. The healing and prevention of wounds is too thin in the Hobbit Draft Game to allow such an imbalance.
And the Archery special ability hammers the last nail to the coffin: any junk Orc (Orkish Sneak, Yazneg, Narzug) will work as a cheap disposable archer, and this ability can trigger Narzug's very dangerous skill :cop:. This version of Bolg doesn't require many other cards to destroy the whole fellowship. Just Bolg, some 2 other archers and some other cheap Orcs per site and the game is over. Hatred Rekindled, Host of Thousands and Site 9 will assure that combo will be happening over and over again...
Any dwarf which happens to survive through this arrow madness will have to face strong minions (often more minions than companions) and most likely will be exhausted, and if he manages to have enough strength to win the skirmish there's still that overpowered event Hidden Attack to knock him down. TOO MUCH.
If the passive skill had a limit and was "at the end" of the archery phase instead, it would be far less overpowered. It'd force the FP player to assign arrows to unwounded comps and that ensures that each companion has at least 1 wound after the archery fire distribution, which can pave the road to a skirmish kill (being far more appropiate for the Gundabad Archery theme, and even the Hunting Pack theme). The active skill should have a limit, perhaps a natural limit like "Archery: Exert Bolg and discard an Orc (except Narzug) to..."; still would be very powerful.
I believe the active Archery skill isn't necessary at all, it can be replaced with something more balanced. Something like this version:
[5] •Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army Hunter Party [Gundabad]
Minion • Orc
Strength: 9 Vitality: 3 Site 5
Archer. Damage +1.
At the end of the archery phase, you may exert an unwounded companion for each other [Gundabad] archer you spot (limit 3).
Shadow: Exert Bolg and remove [1] to play a [Gundabad] archer from your discard pile.
We must remember each Shadow culture here will be based on the Main Deck, which has 2x Hatred Rekindled, 3x Host of Thousands and Site 9 to make any specific Orc of your choice reappear over and over again, so the effect of a minion's text must always be developed with that in mind.
- 4x Orkish Pursuer : Cost (2). [Gundabad] Minion. Orc. Site 5. Strength 7, Vitality 2. Archer. Archery: Exert this minion and another Orc archer to make the minion archery total +1.
This one looks fine, as it can exert only once. Anyway, it depends on the rest of the Pack if this minion adds too much arrows or not, and given the lack of FP archery-counters that will likely be affirmative.
- 3x The Fifth Army : Cost (5). [Gundabad] Minion. Orc. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 3. Archer. While you can spot another Orc archer, add 1 to the minion archery total.
Any card titled "Army" in the BotFA environment must be unique in my opinion (Elf Army, Iron Hills Army, Esgaroth Volunteers). If it's called "Legion" instead, it can remain non-unique.
Gandalf: Where is your master? Where is he?!
Azog: He is everywhere. We are legion!
The classic and poweful Moria Archer Troop. But with twilight cost -1 and strength +3, for the little price of roaming 1 site more. So it's clearly overpowered. But actually this is a good example of what might be a good skirmishers-oriented Gundabad Army Pack: a cheap and strong fighter, which is also an archer and can add 1 more arrow.
If its Site Number were a bit higher (6 or 7) it'd be OK for me, AS FAR AS the whole Shadow Archers theme is totally ditched in pro of a skirmishing Gundabad Army. But along with that Bolg and Hidden Attack, this minion is way too powerful (Bolg and the arrows exhaust, and this strong minion OR Hidden Attack finishes the slaughter).
- 4x Orkish Bow : Cost (1). [Gundabad] Possession. Ranged Weapon. Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc. Bearer is an archer. Skirmish: Discard this possession to add (3).
Can be replayed with Goblin Footman and that's a good thing. But this bow was designed to allow Hidden Attack to be player anytime you have it in hand, and that event is quite overpowered (see below). If it were a maneuver action instead, it would allow for +1 archery OR selective direct wounding at skirmish. Still very powerful...
- 3x Hidden Attack : Cost (3). [Gundabad] Event - Skirmish. Wound a character skirmishing an archer minion. If the fellowship is at a battleground site, you may remove (3) to wound that character again.
This event is EVIL. This is Whistling Death, a mixture of Whirling Strike and Red Wrath. But in the Extended/Standard LOTR TCG format the FP player has many evil ways to keep the fellowship healed and that is clearily not the case here. Nor does exist here any card like Gimli's Helm or Armor to prevent multiple wounds in skirmishes, or any shield or condition to stop arrows. And there's no Sapling of the White Tree, Intimidate or generic Dwarven Bracers, wound prevention is limited to only Fili and The One Ring (in skirmishes), and the two-fold exclusive Oakenshield...
If it were in my hands, I'd remove this OP card if the Archer theme remains. Otherwise, I'd make some changes to it:
[3] Hidden Attack [Gundabad]
Event • Skirmish
Exert an archer minion to wound a character skirmishing that minion. If the current site is a battleground, you may remove [3] to make the Free Peoples player wound that character again or discard 3 cards from hand.
It requires an exertion to reduce the abuse of powerful skills like Orkish Pursuer's. And gives an option to the FP player to deal with the second wound.
- 3x Morgul Arrow : Cost (1). [Gundabad] Condition • Support area. Response: If a [Dwarven] companion takes a wound during the archery phase, transfer this condition to this character. Limit 1 per character. Wound bearer at the start of each fellowship phase.
I'd remove this because doesn't belong to the Gundabad Army. And due to another issue: Bolg exerts everyone and then the arrows fall, so there are little chances of having a non-exhausted Dwarf that will survive the Morgul Arrow at the next turn (if not at a sanctuary). This condition is more powerful than Blade Tip: they have in common that the FP guy takes both a wound AND this deadly condition, except that this condition allows for much wider possibilities to transfer it.
Perhaps some power reduction wouldn't come bad to this one. Instead of a costless transference if an arrow hits a Dwarf, might be "exert a [Gundabad] archer to transfer this condition to that Dwarf". Or "remove [2] to transfer"...
Concluding, it's far too powerful a subculture for the Gundabad Army and totally disagrees with their theme (they should be strong skirmishers instead). And though it fits better with Bolg's Hunting Party, with that theme it's even more overpowered in respect to what they were in the DoS film: a simple bunch of Hunting Orcs, previously decimated by Gandalf's burning cones, the Great Eagles and the Dwarves at the Wooded Cliff.
Hope this helps.
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I love the Smaug cards with the full image! They look spectacular.
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@Enola:
I've been rewatching the movies, and there is a thing I must unsay:
...it would make sense to give Bolg's Army the Gundabad or Moria culture, and Azog's one the Sauron culture. Good old-fashioned [Sauron] Orcs... that would be cool.
That's very wrong. The cultures you chose for the Swarm Packs the actually the correct ones. Sorry :(.
In the Desolation of Smaug, Beorn explains "there is an alliance between the Orcs of Moria and the sorcerer in Dol Guldur." So the army led by Azog, though gathered at Dol Guldur, is mostly made out of forces of Moria and the Misty Mountains. Bolg's Army is comprised of forces from the Grey Mountains, and is mustered at their capitol Mount Gundabad.
Still, there are things that don't correspond with the themes:
1. Azog's Pack has the Stone Giants and they don't belong to the assault. They should be part instead of the Goblin-town theme: they forced the Company to deviate from the High Pass. A good replacement may be the Were-worms (you made a very interesting and powerful version). Or perhaps some weapon like a Piked Mace for Orcs and Trolls:
[1] Piked Mace [Moria]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +3 +2
Bearer must be an Orc or a Troll.
Skirmishes involving bearer must be resolved before any others.
While at a battleground site, bearer is fierce.
We can see front line fighters like Ogres (the Demolition Troll) using piked maces. I believe there is a lack of pumps for this minions, and this weapon would turn Azog or the Demolition Troll into a strength 12 or 13, fierce, dmg+1 minion.
2. Bolg's Pack has the Morgul Arrow. And the theme is wrongly based on the Hunting Pack of the 2nd film, in both gametext and pictures. They should be skirmishers, or high strength archer minions, but not those Specialized Archers you made.
Again, hope this helps.
@Not A Zombie: Indeed they look awesome! Enola has put much effort in all aspects of this Hobbit Draft Game, and graphical design is one of the best.
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The Assailants Pack:
I must say that I like these cards very much. There are some points I'd change, but they are very well designed and the changes I'd add are relatively just details. :up:
- 3x • Azog, Commander of the Wolves Army : Cost (4). [Moria] minion. Orc. Site 4. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Damage +1. While you can spot 3 [Moria] minions, the twilight cost of your [Moria] minions is -1. Maneuver: If the fellowship's current site is a battleground, exert Azog to play a [Moria] minion from your discard pile.
This version of Azog is great. The gametext, the subtitle, the picture, the lore... everything exhales destruction. :up:
Nonetheless, there is an idea that may be considered: I believe this Azog should be "the Head of the Snake" that Thorin tries to cut off to scatter the Goblin Army. But the first line "While you can spot... the twilight cost of your [Moria] minions is -1" doesn't need Azog alive when his Army fights, and cost reduction is also present in the Dark Bats and the Wolves Army (great cards too). I'd change it to "While you can spot 3 [Moria] minions, each [Gundabad] and [Moria] minion is strength +2", that way the Horde would be much stronger with his Commander present in the battle, Azog would be a really fearsome foe with strength 11 dmg +1 (being only strength 9 is very easy to beat), and the FP player would have a strong need to kill him as soon as it's possible.
By the way, the Piked Mace I suggested is designed to protect Azog (or any key minion) from being killed in skirmishes by either making Azog stronger, or by forcing the FP player to fight its bearer before Azog can fight (taking profit of Azog's text). I mean this: 3 or more [Moria] minions + Azog + a Demolition Troll with a Piked Mace. The Troll would be a strength 14, dmg +1 minion and would fight before Azog, and later at Azog's skirmish the Demolition Troll would be able to trigger Azog's text for his own strength gain. Give it a try ;).
A last point. Gandalf names Azog a "Commander of Legions" when talking to Radagast at the High Fells. That's a good subtitle I think.
Gandalf: "He is summoning his servants. Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander. A commander of legions."
- 3x The Wolves Army : Cost (6). [Moria] minion. Orc. Site 4. Strength 11, Vitality 4. Fierce. When you play this minion, add (1) for each wounded companion (or (2) if the fellowship's current site is a battleground).
Just like the Fifth Army in Bolg's Pack, this one should be either an unique "Army" or a non-unique "Legion".
It honours me that you have taken my "wound tracker" idea to depict Wargs :up:. This Wolves Army shouldn't be an Orc but a Warg. I know Wargs can't bear Orkish possessions and are more limited in interaction (can't use Hatred Rekindled/Host of Thousands), but that can be compensated. Add this: "While at a battleground, this minion is strength +1 for each wounded companion". That way only Azog or Dark Bats would be able to recover them from discard, but against a fellowship of 5 or 6 wounded comps this Warg would be strength 16/17 (or 18/19 with Azog and 3 [Moria] minions), fierce, costing only [1] or even (0). That's a good reason to make it unique ;).
[6] •The Wolves Army [Moria]
Minion • Warg
Strength 11 Vitality 4 Site 4
Fierce.
When you play this minion, add (1) for each wounded companion (or [2] if the fellowship's current site is a battleground).
While at a battleground, The Wolves Army is strength +1 for each wounded companion.
Perhaps the strength bonus should have a limit. And adding [2] at a battleground, plus Dark Bats' cost reduction, is too much in my opinion.
The picture hasn't a single Warg. There is a good picture with a bunch of Wargs at Dol Guldur Army in the Desolation of Smaug, at 02:10:07 in the Extended Edition.
- 4x Goblin Vanguard : Cost (3). [Moria] minion. Orc. Site 4. Strength 7, Vitality 2. Assailant. When you play this minion, you may play a [Moria] condition from your draw deck or discard pile.
The Orkish Smith, but a bit stronger and more expensive. This one will keep the engine of this culture running: Azog replaying minions and Dark Bats making them very cheap. The gametext has my total approval. :up:
But I don't like the picture for that gametext. That Orc of the picture isn't part of the Vanguard or even of the Rear Guard (he's left behind to kill Gandalf). And has a great potential to be a strong "Dimrill Veteran" Orc in a Pack depicting the Battle of Azanulbizar (he was beaten by Dwalin in Azanulbizar but survived), probably an unique chieftain.
Use instead a close up to some few front liners of Azog's marching army. There is a good pic to use around 0:25:42.
-2x Demolition Troll : Cost (5). [Moria] minion. Troll. Site 4. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Damage +1. When you play this minion, you may spot 2 other [Moria] minions to discard a possession.
Quite good sir! Strong, cheap, disruptive and simple... this guy impels me to make Dale fortifications in an Extension. There must be a way of making fierce this strong, damage +1 minion (and Azog too), that's why I proposed the Piked Mace.
The lore text of this Troll doesn't fit. It's borrowed from Troll of the Deep, but the Demolition Troll should destroy walls and bridges instead of repairing/replacing them.
- 3x Vicious Warg : Cost (1). [Moria] Possession • Mount. Strength +1. Vitality +1. Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc. At the start of each skirmish involving bearer, each character skirmishing bearer must exert.
This one MUST make bearer fierce (the wild nature or wolves), but restraining the exertion to only 1 skirmish to avoid abuse: "Bearer is fierce. At the start of each non-fierce skirmish involving bearer...". And a last point: the limitation to only [Moria] Orcs is both excessive and unnecessary: the Gundabad version of Azog (and [Gundabad] orcs of the Main Deck) should be able to ride this wolf...
[1] Vicious Warg [Moria]
Possession • Mount
Strength +1 Vitality +1
Bearer must be an Orc.
Bearer is fierce.
At the start of each non-fierce skirmish involving bearer, each character skirmishing bearer must exert.
With my version of Azog, this mount + 2 [Moria] minios will make Azog a very hard foe: strength 12, vitality 4, fierce, damage +1. And exerting his opponent at the first skirmish.
- 3x Dark Bats : Cost (1). [Moria] Condition • Support area. To play, exert a [Moria] Orc. The twilight cost of your [Moria] minions is -1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may take into hand a [Moria] minion from your discard pile.
This condition shares the exact same lore text as Legolas :(. But the condition itself is pretty neat. The core of the whole culture. :up:
"At the start of your regroup phase" is a bit wrong, use "the regroup phase" instead.
- 2x • Stone Giants : Cost (2). [Moria] Condition • Support area. Each time the fellowship moves to site 4, the Free Peoples player must exert 3 [Dwarf] companions. Maneuver: If the fellowship is at a mountain site, discard this condition and remove [2] to add a doubt.
The Stone Giants must be present in another pack. Replace them here with the Piked Mace, or with another minion to do the swarm (a cheap goblin skirmisher, or a Troll bearing a catapult, or the Goblin Mercenaries).
Although it doesn't belong here, I like the concept. "Each time the fellowship moves to site 4" can be changed to "When the fellowship moves to site 4" (see The Long Dark). Perhaps should need "to play, exert a [Moria] minion" or "spot 2 [Moria] minions", to prevent other cultures (like Bolg's Pack) from using it. You may look at this condition by Elf_Lvr (albeit he depicts the Stone Giants as minions):
[4] •Hindering Storm [Orc]
Condition • Support Area
Toil 1. Weather.
To play, spot an [Orc] minion.
Each Giant at a mountain is strength +2.
Regroup: Remove 2 burdens to make the move limit for this turn -1. Discard this condition.
The wind was howling and the thunder still growling, and they had a business getting themselves and their ponies along.
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,494.msg11721.html#msg11721
Elf_Lvr's idea there is to make Company stop the journey to take cover and get some relief.
His other 4 cards for the Stone Giants:
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,494.msg11567.html#msg11567
I'd mix your exertion part with his regroup part:
[2] •Stone Giants [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot 2 [Moria] minions.
When the fellowship moves to site 4, the Free Peoples player must exert 3 [Dwarven] companions.
Regroup: Remove 2 doubts to make the move limit this turn -1. Discard this condition.
After all... great Swarm Pack my fellow. Please take into account my ideas, but even if not this Pack rocks anyway. =D>
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Ok I will answer soon, I have a lot of work right now.
All cards (except the new Shadows) are now printed. I have all the cards for a 8 players draft tournament ;).
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I know there are still some loose ends in the basic set (Nazgul Pack, the new Swarm Packs), but I wanted to propose an idea for the format of the boosters in a future Extension Set: Thematic Booster Packs.
The idea is to distribute the Boosters in halves (half FP, half Shadow), depicting a subplot or conflict like the Battle of Azanulbizar or the Riddle Game. Let me explain a bit extensively:
1) After each player drafts their normal 3 boosters as usual, each player chooses directly one different Extension Pack of X cards (we need to define that amount).
2) Then, the cards comprising those packs are shuffled and a single 4th booster of X cards gets drafted.
That amount of X cards can be either even or odd; if odd, the remainder 1 card can be used for a Site corresponding with the Theme. Like the time-ago-proposed "Forges of Erebor" in a pack with Thorin's Company vs Smaug...
The point of directly choosing the Booster is to reinforce a strong or a weak point in the cards you drafted. Some cards will be very specific (cards that need to spot, or be played on, ley's say Galadriel) and that makes the choice at random totally unviable: a pack containing the Phial of Galadriel and Nenya won't work in absense of the White Council Pack. So if a player got from drafting a good amount of White Council cards, he/she might want to choose a "Dol Guldur" Pack with toys and tricks for Wise characters. Keep in mind he/she still has to get those cards through the draft procedure. Another player might counter that by focusing his/her draws on getting the Shadow side of that Thematic pack, which will be a natural enemy to them.
These are some ideas for Themes we might use:
- "Quest of Erebor Pack": Thorin's Company vs Smaug. [Dwarven] Fortifications, Fire-Breath and other tricks.
- "Azanulbizar Pack": The War of Dwarves and Orcs. [Dwarven] vs [Moria]. The "dead" Thrór ally should be present here. Azog as "King of Moria".
- "Riddles Pack": Bilbo + The One Ring vs Gollum. FP/Shadow Events and [Gollum] conditions using the "Riddle" keyword.
- "Dol Guldur Pack": The White Council vs Sauron & The Nazgul. The Phial of Galadriel, Nenya, Vilya, Saruman's Staff...
- "Rhosgobel Pack": Radagast + his Beasts and Birds vs Spiders and The Necromancer.
- "Goblin Town Pack": Thorin's Company vs Goblins + Stone Giants. The Goblin Archery might make a gleaming debut here. Some [Moria] followers to turn simple Orcs into an archers. Perhaps the Great Goblin's Sceptre...
- "Rivendell Pack": Rivendell Elves (Lindir, Musical Elves, tricks for Elrond) vs Wargriders and Wargs.
- "Misty Mountains Pack": Eagles, Gandalf and Thorin's Co vs Wargs and Wargriders...
So, what do you guys think?
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I promised it before, but I had a lot of works. I will answer to all your suggestions soon, sorry for the delay :(.
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Take the time you need my fellow! It gives me more chances of refining the ideas to propose. ;)
In respect of that "Thematic Pack" idea, I'm working on a bunch of FP/Shadow cards as an example of what might be an "Azanulbizar Pack" with (dead) Thrór and Thórin on one side, against "Azog, King of Moria" and survivors of the War of Dwarves and Orcs in the other side. Soon! I think you will like it.
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I can propose these new updates:
- • Ulaire Attea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3. Fierce. Skirmish: Return an Orc to your hand to make a [Wraith] minion strength +2 (or +3 at a forest).
- • Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4. Fierce.
Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to make the Free Peoples player exert a companion.
- • Ulaire Cantea, Revived: Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3. Fierce.
Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Cantea to exert an ally.
- Twisted Gold of Dragon: Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. Smaug's twilight cost is -2. If you can spot Smaug, Man allies may participate in archery fire and skirmishes. Shadow: Discard 3 Orcs from play to make each site on the adventure path gain mountain until the regroup phase. Play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.
- Jail is very strong, so it has to be a specific card for [Sauron] culture, there also will be other Sauron cards in the supplementary pack.
For the other cards, I would like to have all the five Armies in all the cards (maybe with the supplementary packs).
So, ok for a Bolg archer troop:
- Bolg
At the start of the assignment phase, you may exert an unwounded companion for each other [Gundabad] archer you spot (limit 3).
Shadow: Exert Bolg and discard an Orc to play a [Gundabad] archer from your discard pile.
- Fifth Army : new name ?
Strength 7
We will test Hidden attack as it is now, it's just a lower version of Whistling Death.
We also have to change in the [Moria] Assailants Shadow:
- Vicious Warg :
Bearer must be an Orc.
Bearer is fierce.
I don't like the "non-fierce" version. Maybe something different?
- Dark Bats : new lore text
To play, exert a [Moria] Orc. The twilight cost of your Assailants is -1. At the start of the regroup phase, you may take into hand a [Moria] minion from your discard pile.
- Stone Giants : Ok for changing this card and put the Stone Giants in supplemntary pack (see below). New card (maybe not a possession) ? We need a bit of corruption (like Fat Spider in the other swarm pack).
For your ideas of thematic packs, I propose to change the FP supplementary packs in supplementary packs which contain Shadow and FP cards (it will be much more simple). They will have then 16 cards in each pack (14 cards per booster) or 22 cards in each pack (15 cards per booster) :
- "Quest of Erebor Pack": Thorin vs Goblin Army.
- "Azanulbizar Pack": Thrain vs Goblin conditions & Events + Goblin Archery.
- "Riddles Pack": Bilbo vs Gollum + Stone Giants.
- "Dol Guldur Pack": The White Council vs Sauron & The Nazgul.
- "Wizard Pack": Radagast vs Wargs.
- "Battle of the Five Armies Pack": Dain vs Assaillants.
- "Esgaroth Pack": Esgaroth allies vs Smaug.
- "Mirkwood Pack": Elf vs Spiders.
I don't know where I could put the Troll, or maybe some Trolls in the Battle of the Five Armies pack.
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I also add all the cards of the new shadows on this page :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters.html
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Ok for the changes to the Nazgul. The previous versions were clearly overpowered, now are more balanced. :up:
For Smaug, OK too for that orthographic change. But thinking a bit more, perhaps it might be also changed from "until the regroup phase" to "until the end of the turn", just like Smaug's Awakening lasts until the end of the turn. It won't matter too much anyway. :up:
- Dark Bats: The version you propose says "your Assailants". Does that keyword remain? Other than that, the lore text was the only problem in my opinion.
- Fifth Army: This one should be titled "the Goblin Army", in contrast to "the Wolves Army" of Azog's pack. What do you think about making each army unique?
There are still too many single cards to examine. We have little discrepancies in respect of Azog's Pack, so focusing first on that pack will make the whole task much easier and faster.
There are some important points there:
- Azog giving +2 strength instead of -1 twilight.
- the Vicious Warg making bearer fierce (and exerting its foe only in the non-fierce skirmish).
- The Wolves Army earning for each "bleeding prey" not only twilight addition, but also strength. And being unique.
- some minor problems: card picture (Goblin Vanguard), lore text (Demolition Troll).
And we agreed on removing the Stone Giants to include them in another pack. If you want to add doubts, though you said "maybe not a possession", the old Goblin Spear adds a doubt when killing a companion. I wanted to add this version of the Goblin Spear to Azog's Moria Army in the Azanulbizar Pack (I'll post it soon, perhaps today), it has the addition of giving some use to doubts:
[1] Goblin Spear [Moria] (reprint... sort of!)
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be an Orc or a Troll.
If bearer kills a Free Peoples character in a skirmish, add 1 doubt.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make bearer strength +1 (limit +3).
"Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light."
So you kill a character to add a doubt (like Decipher's version), and then remove doubts to kill again. ;)
Those are minor details in comparison to the problem of Bolg's Archers. I agree totally that both Azog's Army and Bolg's Army must be present in that 2nd Swarm Pack, and that way we would have the 5 armies in the "Basic set". But I disagree with the "specialized archers" theme, the pictures, most game texts and even some card titles of the current Bolg's pack. And it's clearly overpowered.
So I think we should focus first on the little details of Azog's Pack, to then make a Bolg's Army pack with a stronger resemblance to the army of the book/movie.
There is still plenty of points to refer. More to come in the next days...
EDIT: The Vicious Warg should be bearable by any Orc, instead of only [Moria] Orcs. Then the assignment ability might say "Assignment: If bearer is a [Moria] Orc, exert it to..." to reduce the abuse of that ability.
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This is an example of what I mean with the concept of the Thematic Packs. These cards are only a prototype, and I know many will be removed due to lack of card slots. Card slots aren't even assigned yet, these are only concepts and events portrayed in single cards. But I hope this exercise is enough to show what the idea should look like...
"The Battle of Azanulbizar" Thematic Pack:
- Shadow side: [Moria] Beatdown Orcs.
The concept of the shadow is to turn a [Moria] Swarm into a Beatdown under Azog's command, taking advantage from dead (and exhausted) Dwarves, direct assignments, doubt addition and removal, strength pumps, and even dead Orcs piled up in the battlefield.
I must say that the concept of the "Battle of Azanulbizar" is mostly made from Tolkien's writings (which are much more extensive and deep-developed that Jackson's version), though it contains important parts based on PJ's work, like Thorin (instead of Dain) faces Azog (and maiming his arm instead of his whole head)...
Minions:
- •Azog, King of Moria
- !Dimrill Dale Veteran
- !Dimrill Dale Survivor
Possessions:
- •Azog's Mace
- Goblin Spear
Conditions:
- •Bitter Vow
- Thirst for !Vengeance
[4] •Azog, King of Moria [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength: 9 Vitality: 3 Site: 4
Damage +1.
While you cannot spot more minions than companions, Orcs are strength +1 for each Dwarf in the dead pile and are fierce.
Skirmish: Discard an Orc not assigned to a skirmish to make an Orc strength +2.
"'I wrote it! I killed him! I am !the Master!'"
The benefit is only in case there aren't more Orcs than companions; i.e., your aren't swarming. You can play a Swarm and still get benefits from Azog's passive skill, in case some Orcs are killed or you discard them with his active skill.
[4] !Dimrill Dale Veteran [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 3 Site 4
Damage +1.
This minion is strength +1 for each Dwarf which is exhausted (or in the dead pile).
Shadow: Play an Orc to draw a card or to heal an Orc.
"So began the Battle of Azanulbizar, at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep."
All "veteran" Orcs are damage +1, thus Azog's text makes them very powerful by turning them fierce. And they get and additional strength +1 benefit from dead Dwarves, and another +1 for each exhasuted Dwarf.
[3] !Dimrill Dale Survivor [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 2 Site 4
Damage +1.
This minion is strength +1 for each Dwarf which is exhausted (or in the dead pile).
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc strength +1.
"...And those that could !escape from them were flying South, shrieking as they ran."
This one uses doubts to win skirmishes. And considering they are damage +1 and that Goblin Spear and Bitter Vow add doubts when a Dwarf is killed, the cycle can go ever on.
[2] •Azog's Mace [Moria]
Strength +2
Possession • Hand Weapon
Bearer must be an Orc.
Bearer is fierce.
Skirmish: If bearer is Azog, exert him to discard a possession borne by a character skirmishing him. The Free Peoples player may exert that character or add a doubt to prevent that.
As we saw in AUJ, Azog threw their foes' weaponry before killing them. The FP player can protect those possession but the cost might be much better for you than just discarding those: doubts or exertions.
[1] Goblin Spear [Moria]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be an Orc or a Troll.
If bearer kills a Free Peoples character in a skirmish, add 1 doubt.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make bearer strength +1 (limit +3).
"Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light."
You kill a Dwarf to add doubts... Then you remove doubts to win and hopefully kill another Dwarf.
[2] •Bitter Vow [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Each time a Dwarf is killed, add a doubt.
Assignment: Exert a [Moria] Orc to assign it to skirmish an exhausted Dwarf. The Free Peoples player may exert another Dwarf to assign him to skirmish that Orc instead.
"The giant Gundabad Orc had sworn to wipe out the line of Durin. He began by beheading the King..."
A way to kill Dwarves and get doubts out of it. The FP player has an alternative, but one that can grind their Dwarves anyway.
[1] Thirst for !Vengeance [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Each time a [Moria] Orc is killed, you may remove [1] to stack that Orc on this card.
Shadow: Discard 2 cards stacked here to play an Orc from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Discard 2 cards stacked here or remove [3] to make an Orc strength +1.
"...for they resolved now to win the dominion of the North."
If your Goblins get killed (instead of goint into Goblin Swarm), they can still be used to spur hatred to Dwarves or to muster new Goblins to battle.
Those are all the ideas for the Shadow side by now. I owe you all the Dwarven part, today or tomorrow will be posted.
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"The Battle of Azanulbizar" Thematic Pack:
- Free Peoples side: [Dwarven] Veterans.
Let's review the story. Tolkien's version of the story, I mean. Thrór, tired of his exiled living, took one companion called Nár and travelled from Dunland to Moria to see the splendour of his forefathers. There he entered the East Gate but found it was occupied by Orcs, and their leader Azog captured him, tortured him for days and finally beheaded him. He branded his name in Thrór's forehead, in dwarvish runes, so that Nár could read it. Nár's life was spared and Azog used him instead as a messenger, to warn what would happen to other beggars who don't want to wait at the door. Azog threw him a little bag of worthless coins, as payment for his duty of messenger.
Nár took the tale back to Thráin, and after he wept for long, he sat down in silence. For seven days Thráin kept still and then, full of wrath and grief, sent messengers to the lords of all the other Dwarven Houses, to avenge the wrongs done to their High King and heir of the Eldest of their race.
After three years they mustered a great Host, and assaulted each Orkish stronghold and city in the Misty Mountains, looking for Azog. Six bitter and long years later, all surviving Orcs were gathered at Moria under Azog's command. And there begins Peter Jackson's version of the story, which is not a long war but only a single battle.
Other differences are the lack of Iron Hills Dwarves, Náin father of Dáin's duel (and death) with Azog, and Azog's duel with Dáin, in which a little detail was omitted by PJ: his head was sliced off and was set on a stake, with the little bag of coins thrusted in his mouth.
- •Thrór, Overthrown King
- •Nár, Messenger of Ill News
- •Iron Hills Veterans
- •Deathless
- Dwarven Shield
- Burned Dwarves
- Du Bekâr!
- Headbutt
- The Mustering of the Seven Houses
I know that these are too much cards, but I'm only exposing ideas, it's not definitive at all.
These cards try to represent Dwarves as fierce survivors in battle (which is good to counter their [Moria] Beatdown foes, who are strong and destructive). There is some healing and doubt removal, to balance the strong grind and doubt addition mechanisms of Azog's Host.
[4] •Thrór, Overthrown King [Dwarven]
Ally • Dwarf • Site 8
Plays to your dead pile. While in your dead pile, Thrór's text remains active.
Each wounded Dwarf is strength +1 (and damage +1 if you can spot an Orc).
"When Thrór came to Moria the Gate was open. Nár begged him to beware, but he... walked proudly in as an heir that returns."
Thror is killed = Dwarves go to war. With WRATH. Those who survive (which includes most of Thorin's Company) end up as fierce veterans who almost can't fear death nor pain...
If you read the previous post, Azog and his veterans take advantage of dead Dwarves, so it has a strong counter.
[2] •Nár, Messenger of Ill News [Dwarven]
Follower • Dwarf
Strength +1
Aid - Exert a Dwarf and add [2].
Bearer is damage +1.
Each time you play a [Dwarven] event, you may exert a Dwarf (or return Nár to your support area) to exert a minion.
"Then Nár came up, and found that it was indeed the body of Thrór, but the head was severed and lay face downwards."
Nár's ability here represents the fell deeds of Thráin's Host: they can strain themselves to punish and corner their foes, and will likely do that. But not without a cost.
[4] •Iron Hills Veterans [Dwarven]
Ally • Dwarf • Site 9
Strength 8 Vitality 4
Damage +1.
At a battleground or underground site, each Dwarf character is strength +1 for each wounded character in his skirmish.
"With cries of 'Moria!' and 'Dain, Dain!' the Dwarves of the Iron Hills plunged in..."
More survival mode for the Dwarves. The natural limit in one-to-one fights is +2 (if both Dwarf and minion are wounded), but Dwalin (or anyone fighting several foes) might get more.
It is said that most of Dain's troops at the Battle of the Five Armies were veterans of the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs.
[1] •Deathless [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon.
Strength +2
Bearer must be a Dwarf companion.
Bearer is damage +1.
If bearer is Thorin and he kills a minion in a skirmsh, each Dwarf is strength +1 until the regroup phase.
"'Azog the Defiler learned that day that the line of Durin would not be so easily broken.'"
Thorin breaks the enemy ranks, and gives hope and leadership to his folk. It's usable by any Dwarf in the company, but only Thorin wields it as a leader.
[1] Dwarven Shield [Dwarven]
Possession • Shield
Strength +1
Bearer must be a Dwarf.
The minion archery total is -1.
Skirmish: Discard this possession to heal bearer or to play a hand weapon from your discard pile on bearer.
"It is said that Thorin's shield was cloven and he cast it away..."
A dashing shield for melee. This one can be considered a weapon, giving a solution to Shadow archery, lack of healing and the "Boxing Dwarves". Thorin is seen in the last movie with a golden shield of similar shape than those used at Azanulbizar, and effectively he uses it to strike his foes.
[1] Burned Dwarves [Dwarven]
Event • Maneuver
Spot a Dwarf to make him defender +1 until the regroup phase. You may exert 2 Dwarves (or spot a Dwarf in the dead pile) to make each Dwarf strength +1 and damage +1 until the regroup phase.
"'But there was no feast nor song that night, for our dead were beyond the count of grief.'"
Disquiet of Our People. But more towards killing than to philantropic suicide...
[2] Du Bekâr! [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a Dwarf at the current site strength +3. If that Dwarf is not assigned to a skirmish, exert him to have him replace another Dwarf (or a Man or a non-Wise Elf at a battleground) in a skirmish.
"'Our forces rallied and drove the Orcs back. And our enemy had been defeated.'"
Thorin's trademark war cry, which means "To the fight!" in neo-Khuzdul. You can either pump a Dwarf in a skirmish, or exchange a Dwarf in a skirmish with another Dwarf but pumped. Should work marvels with Thorin wielding his Deathless.
(0) Headbutt [Dwarven]
(https://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/8-dwalin-headbutt.gif)
Event • Skirmish
Make a Dwarf skirmishing an Orc strength +2. That Orc's owner must discard a card at random from hand.
You may discard 3 cards from hand and exert a Dwarf in a skirmish to play this event from your discard pile.
Axe, fist, head. Everything counts in the battlefield.
This one is a desperate surviving resource. Use it too much and you will run out of draw deck...
[2] The Mustering of the Seven Houses [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Play a [Dwarven] character or a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck or discard pile.
You may exert a Dwarf to remove a doubt (or spot 4 doubts and exert 2 Dwarves to remove 2 doubts) and draw 2 cards.
"Seven days he sat and said no word. Then he stood up and said: 'This cannot be borne!'"
The subculture needs some doubt removal. Keep in mind this card can add huge lots of twilight, before the Shadow phase.
Well, that's all by now. As said before, this is only a prototype. So what do you think guys?
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Ok for the "The Battle of Azanulbizar" Thematic Pack. I will probably pick some of these cards :).
Ok for the other changes in Smaug, [Wraith] and [Sauron] cultures.
We have to test for the Azog Shadow first.
I think Stone Giants could be replaced by
Earth-eaters : Cost (3). [Moria] Condition • Support area. Shadow: Remove a doubt to play a [Moria] minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -1. Maneuver: Spot 3 [Moria] minions to add a doubt. Discard this condition.
The Bolg Shadow must be a massive wound Shadow, it's a lack in the Shadow strategies. The simple way seems to be an archery Shadow, and the archery phase is unused by the Shadow player :(. But we could make something else.
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My hats off to you Enola, Durin's Heir, and everyone else involved in getting this together.
Though I haven't been able to part of the development thus far, I've been following it all and am really impressed with how tactfully it's been approached and how professional the artwork looks.
If it continues to progress successfully with more draft events, etc, and you are interested, I would be more than willing to attempt helping you mass produce them. I have a great working relationship with several Chinese suppliers that have colleagues in companies that can produce the cards and packs pretty cheap, so the actual production I could take care of pretty easily...just the license would be something new for me to deal with.
In any case, just wanted to let you know I thought it was great, and would be willing to help see it developed in bulk, if that were to ever happen :)
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Thank you for your support dmaz.
I use printerstudio.com to print all the cards, the cards are made in the same quality as LOTR TCG. Unfortunately, due to the license problem, I think this game will never be sold :(.
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My friend Enola, I'm sorry for this delay. Again I've been busier than usually. :(
We have to test for the Azog Shadow first.
I believe the same. We first give priority to discuss Azog, then Bolg. Then the ideas for the Extension Set. But posting ideas and discussing them are different things, so I will be posting things without expecting to be immediatly discussed, just to keep the ball rolling and save some time while the Shadow Packs get finished.
Ok for the "The Battle of Azanulbizar" Thematic Pack. I will probably pick some of these cards :).
Great! :)
The Bolg Shadow must be a massive wound Shadow, it's a lack in the Shadow strategies. The simple way seems to be an archery Shadow, and the archery phase is unused by the Shadow player :(.
The pack can still be oriented towards wounding or archery, but the problems to solve I've found are the following:
- 1. The pictures, names and themes are mostly regarding Bolg's Hunting Party. So those MUST be changed to another archery subculture, and that subculture must be in accordance to the pictures, names and themes of Bolg's Gundabad Army (AZOG: "Let the Legions come forth!").
In the 2nd film, Bolg leads a group of Orcs but Azog leads another one too (Orcs and Wargs gathering at Dol Guldur) who fight against Gandalf. There are very interesting events regarding both "Thorin vs Bolg" and "Gandalf vs Azog" in that film, like Gandalf telekinetically stopping Azog or destroying a building to make it fall on the pursuing Wargs. So those groups might be portrayed in Extension Sets instead of forcing them into a Swarm Pack meant to only represent the 2 evil armies in the Battle of the Five Armies.
- The Morgul Arrow must be removed from Bolg's Army. And maybe the Orkish Bow too.
- The pictures of Bolg, Orkish Pursuer and Orkish Bow (if remains) must be changed to images from the last film.
- 2. Any massive wounding or exerting Shadow must have a way to prevent those wounds. When Thorin's Company fought their way out of Goblin-town in AUJ, they were shot many arrows but used whatever they could to stop/dodge them, and they never had a shield. Kili used his sword, then they used a Goblin ladder...
In the current stage there is only 1 card that reduces the minion archery (the Mithril Coat in Thorin's Pack), and both healing and wound prevention are VERY limited. To heal the Company there is Elrond, Lore of Imladris and Óin (and Galadriel in the White Council Pack), while wound prevention has only Bofur (and the Oakenshield in Thorin's Pack).
In LOTR TCG, Moria Archery is one of the most powerful themes in both FOTR and Towers Standard. That is considering the FP players have a lot of options to heal their characters or to prevent wounds, which isn't the case here... Therefore, any massive wounding deck must provide ways to prevent those wounds. Otherwise it will be a total MASSACRE from the very start.
"The Free Peoples player may... instead / to prevent this":
- Add a doubt.
- Discard 2 cards from hand.
- Discard a [Dwarven] event fom hand.
- Discard a random card from hand.
- Discard a possession or a follower.
- Make a companion strength -3 until the regroup phase.
- Exert an ally...
And those are ways how Kili can block an arrow with his sword. Like a Jedi ;).
The current version exhausts the fellowship too fast and easily. And the last nail to the coffin is provided by the 2 wounds of Hidden Attack, which doesn't have an instrinsic way to prevent them.
- 3. A massive wounding shadow is by definition a non-skirmish Beatdown shadow. Not a Swarm shadow at all. Just look at Moria Archery and Sauron Grind in FOTR block. They rarely play more minions than companions, except for Tol Brandir at the end (which is a last throw, not the goal of the strategy).
So my point here is that massive wounding is not a compatible goal with swarming. Non-overpowered wounding may be coupled with cheap skirmishers, but a specialized archery shadow meant to cause massive wounds displaces the original goal.
So those are my objections, and lamentably that means that a bunch of cards must be made again. The goal of the strategy must be remade, exchanging mass archery for skirmishers with some archery potential. Swarm should be the goal.
The simple way seems to be an archery Shadow, and the archery phase is unused by the Shadow player :(.
I believe the Specialized Archers theme should be used by either Bolg's Hunters (DoS) or the Goblin-town Archers (AUJ), or perfectly by both in different ways.
But we could make something else.
There is also Regroup Wounding a la [Isengard] Orcs, which is covered here only by the War Warg. Those might be cheap skirmishers, and if they survive the fight, be discarded or exerted to provide wounds. That's a different way of a massive wounding Shadow, which gives the FP player a chance to prevent those wounds by killing or exhausting the Orcs before the Regroup phase. That would make a Swarm shadow which is also a wounding Shadow.
I believe that option solves the problem. And even some of those Regroup-wounding Orcs might be archers. Why not?
I hope this post can help to clarify the problem of Bolg's Pack.
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I think Stone Giants could be replaced by
Earth-eaters : Cost (3). [Moria] Condition • Support area. Shadow: Remove a doubt to play a [Moria] minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -1. Maneuver: Spot 3 [Moria] minions to add a doubt. Discard this condition.
I like the concept of the Earth-eaters. But there are 2 problems in my opinion:
1. You can replay it with Goblin Vanguard over and over again. For an easy corruption. You can add 3 doubts per site with Azog, 3x Goblin Vanguard and 1x Earth-eaters in hand or discard: at the Shadow phase you play Azog and a Vanguard (and then Earth-eaters from discard), and in Maneuver you discard the Earth-eaters to add a doubt, and play with Azog twice a Vanguard to play (and discard) the Earth-eaters again. Or 4 doubts per site if you have 4x Goblin Vanguard and 2x Earth-eaters. So Bilbo gets corrupted pretty easily. And those doubts can be used for an easy swarm too.
2. There are too many ways to replay your [Moria] minions from discard. And too many cost reduction cards also. There is Azog, Dark Bats, Hatred Rekindled, Host of Thousands, site 9... then comes this condition. A bit too much perhaps, swarms will be too easy to assemble.
I would try these changes:
[2] Earth-eaters [Moria]
Condition • Support area
To play, spot 2 [Moria] minions.
Assignment: If you cannot spot more minions than companions, remove a doubt to play a [Moria] minion from your draw deck or discard pile.
Regroup: If you cannot spot 4 doubts, discard this condition to add a doubt.
Those are 7 card lines. Hope you get the idea, I'm too tired to explain it now :(.
But the intentions are to prevent too many minions from being played (a maximum of +1 than companions), play new minions at a crucial stage as assignment (they are protected from archery and maneuver wounding), able you to play them from draw deck, able you to play fierce minions at fierce assignments, prevent it from being discarded and replayed to add doubts too fast (the Goblin Vanguard cycle), eliminate the chance of corruption...
Hope this helps.
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I know the focus right now is on Azog and Bolg's Armies, so I won't hope this post will have a response soon.
Here's a couple of humble cards regarding the humble Ori, I'd like to see what you think about them. It's not that I want to make a complete Thematic Pack around the figure of Ori, but these 2 might be included in a pack like the Quest of Erebor, or the Trollshaws, or...
[1] •Ori, Eager for Stories [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength 4 Vitality 3
Each time an event is played, you may draw a card or make Ori strength +1 until the regroup phase (or both if you spot Balin).
Skirmish: Exert another companion to make Ori strength +1.
Strength 4? This guy looks very weak at first sight, useful only to ditch him against the jaws of Smaug or a Warg... but keep on reading and you'll see his huge potential. Not only Dwarven events benefit him, but any event that may occur (as the historian he is).
So you can start him with Balin (or Dwalin, or Nori; and Gandalf Leader of Dwarves too), and draw tons of cards for a quick set up. For each event, including Shadow skirmish events trying to kill him, you can make him stronger and thus he can be really powerful at times. If that fails you can always exert other companions to save him from death, or to defeat a minion.
Balin can recycle events, so with Ori they would make a great synergy.
[1] •Ori's Slighshot [Dwarven]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Skirmish: Exert bearer or discard a [Dwarven] event from hand to make each Shadow event twilight cost +1 or a minion strength -1 (or both if bearer is Ori, or bears Ori).
Ori's weapon often hurted the focus of his foes.
This is a card designed to mess up with your opponent's actions. Are you afraid of Gollum's If He Loses? Just throw him a little stone with Ori's Slingshot and watch him lose his mind. If twilight is scarce you can prevent a lot of perils to Bilbo and friends. It's cumulative of course, and lasts until the end of the skirmish.
That's all.
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First of all, I am amazed by all the terrific work you all have put into this worthy successor of LotR TCG. However, I am a bit overwhelmed by the sheer number of updates and cards, and have lost track of things.
I would like to do things properly and have a copy shop make HQ laser colour copies for my friends and I to play with. Which are the cards to start playing with? Which cards are least likely to be updated (You know, it would be a shame to print them and see them change soon after that...)?
Many thanks and please do keep this terrific project running.
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Thank you for your support :). All cards for 4 players are already done and will not change, you can print them here.
http://www.printerstudio.com/sell/sell_product_shop.aspx?designer=A28636B8378343BEFA27F6E3D451C7A59784744CF9FD7D13
We are working on different Shadows now (printable as an extension after this) and some add-ons for the packs.
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Sorry, I wasn't at home due to vacations ^^.
I change the front page with the new Shadows and add-ons for the supplementary packs.
I put a (C) in front of the new updated cards. Tell me what you think about it.
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My friend Enola, there's a lot of points to examinate. So right now I'll only refer to Bolg's pack...
Bolg's Army.
Great! Simple and efficient. The FP player has ways to prevent many wounds, and that prevention doesn't need to be written on each Gundabad Orc's gametext. There are some details which might be improved after further study and discussion, but the pack rocks! :up:
I like very much the new Hidden Attack. It's an upgraded version of The Trees Are Strong (the choice is in the Shadow player's hand instead). Orkish Bow is great too, as still works in combo with Hidden Attack but now bearer must survive through skirmishes first. And Bolg's passive skill assures a minimum of wounds in the Company. Great!
These are some details that might be improved:
1. No Regroup phase at Site 9: There is a little problem with the Regroup mechanism: in both book and film, Bolg's Army appears in the Battle of the Five Armies, site 9, but there is no Regroup phase at site 9. I see 2 solutions:
a) In an Extension Set, a new site 9 similar to Caverns of Isengard should be added. But that doesn't fix the problem right now.
b) To add a text similar to Caverns of Isengard to a key minion like The Orcs Army: "At site 9, the Free Peoples player wins the game only if Bilbo survives until you reconcile your hand." Sadly, those are 3 card lines. It makes sense that The Orcs Army carries that text, because in the last film the Battle ended only after Bolg's fresh army was destroyed (and Bolg shouldn't have that text, because he died some few moments before his main forces arrived).
2. Strength addition: I miss the strength bonus that Orc Commander gives in ROTEL Orcs. And I believe that The Orcs Army is a bit weak as an unique Army character. So I'd make The Orcs Army a [6] cost, strength 10 or 11 minion and with this line added: "Each other [Gundabad] Orc is strength +1".
3. Doubts pile up: Bolg adds some doubts with ease and Hidden Attack gives use to them, that's a good thing. But those doubts aren't removed to increase the effect of Hidden Attack, so they can pile up and eventually corrupt Bilbo, which I think is not the goal. Thus a doubt consumption can be added to prevent that. Bolg might say "At the start of the regroup phase, you may remove a doubt to exert an unwounded companion for each other Orc you spot." It uses 3 card lines, just as your current version.
4. Exert and Discard: In LOTR TCG there are 2 different mechanism for [Isengard] Orcs to work: in ROTEL they exert, while in EOF they get discarded. So perhaps 1 or 2 of those 4 different Orcs might use the EOF mechanism. "Regroup: Discard a [Gundabad] Orc to make the Free Peoples player wound a companion." The Gundabad culture specification is a must. Happily it can't trigger Narzug's skill, being a Regroup action.
5. Cultural limitation: Bolg and Hidden Attack might be limited to only Gundabad Orcs, excluding [Moria] Orcs (and other cultures that may have Orcs in the new Extensions, like [Sauron] and perhaps [Wraith]). Keep in mind that this pack goes along with Azog's pack, loaded with [Moria] Orcs. So it might be a bit too powerful without a cultural restriction. Main Deck orcs are all Gundabad except Goblin Footman (that's 12 cards).
Remember to change the pictures of these cards to pictures of the last film, corresponding with the Orc Army and Bolg's Bodyguards.
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Thank you a lot Durin's Heir, I modify the first post with most of your points.
I think the site 9 Battle of the Five Armies could help a lot such Shadow for a final swarm, the only remaining problem could the twilight pool :(. It had to be tested first.
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Those modifications look very good! I believe this pack is the strongest candidate for a next playtest.
If The Orcs Army had that "site 9" text, it would use all 7 card lines. It has enough card room, doesn't require to remove any current game text. Only lore text would be lost.
I like the point of having the chance to stop Bolg's doubt addition with a direct arrow from Kili's bow. It adds to the movie-flavor ;). Or with Thorin's Orcrist, for book-flavor. :)
The next pack we must discuss is Azog's Army, and after that should be the changes in Smaug's and The Nazgul's packs. About the Thematic packs, we must first determine what is the format that the Extension is going to take (quantity of cards per pack, drafting method, FP to Shadow ratio...), and the Themes to include. And those are tough points to determine, so the focus must first be set on the Swarm and Beatdown Packs.
Meanwhile, I've got a lot of new ideas for cards to post. Here I'll post only a bunch:
[2] •Orcrist, Ancient Sword [Elven]
Artifact • Hand Weapon
Strength +3
To play, discard a [Dwarven] artifact.
Bearer must be Thorin or Legolas. Bearer is damage +1, may participate in archery fire and be assigned to skirmish Orcs.
Skirmish: Transfer Orcrist to Thorin to wound a minion skirmishing him.
"'Not just a thief, but a liar as well.'"
This one should fit with the Mirkwood Thematic pack very well. Legolas skirmishing Orcs and firing arrows as a regular companion...
(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +2. If he wins this skirmish, prevent all wounds to losing minions to heal Bilbo once and remove one doubt for each wound prevented this way.
"'True courage is knowing not how to take a life, but when to spare it'"
[2] Shivering and Whispering [Shire]
Event • Assignment
Spot Sting (or play Sting from your draw deck) to prevent a minion with strength 7 or less from being assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase. It's owner may exert that minion twice to prevent that.
"'It's got an Elfish blade. But it's not an Elfs. Not an Elfs, no. What is it, precious?'"
Tricks for Bilbo. They speak for themselves I think. As Gandalf said, "My heart tells me that he (Gollum) has some part to play yet... and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many".
[3] •Thrór's Raven Crown [Dwarven]
Artifact • Crown
Vitality +1
To play, the fellowship must be at site 7 or higher. Bearer must be Thorin.
Response: If a [Dwarven] companion is about to take a wound, add 2 doubts to prevent it.
Maneuver: Exert Thorin twice or discard Thrór's Raven Crown a [Dwarven] artifact to remove a doubt.
"'We have reclaimed Erebor. Now we defend it.'"
[2] •Thrór's Regal Sword [Dwarven]
Artifact • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be Thorin. He is damage +1.
Assignment: Assign Thorin to a minion with the highest strength. If he wins that skirmish, heal a companion or ally. If he kills that minion, remove a doubt.
"Out leapt the King under the Mountain, and his companions followed him. Hood and cloak were gone..."
Thorin's decision to protect his Company and gold, or to join the battleground...
And last but not least, a different version of The One Ring:
(0) •The One Ring, Hidden In His Pocket [Shire]
Artifact • Ring.
Strength +1 Vitality +1
Bearer must be Bilbo.
While wearing The One Ring, you may exert Bilbo to play a [Shire] stealth from your discard pile, and each time he is about to take a wound, add a doubt instead.
Maneuver: Add a doubt to wear The One Ring until the regroup phase.
Hope you like them.
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Thank you ^^. I think the "site 9" addition will be too much and will destroy the reading of the card :(.
The supplementary packs will be extend from 10 cards to 22 cards, so there will be a strong thematic in each of these packs.
Your cards are ok, but I can't take them if it's not in the game's structure :(.
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Thank you ^^. I think the "site 9" addition will be too much and will destroy the reading of the card :(.
Hmmm, that's totally true. Then the Gundabad-Isen Orcs will have to grind the Company in previous sites. But a site in the Thematic add-ons might be a copy of Caverns of Isengard, and in that case this loose end would be remediated. Anyway it shouldn't be a big disadvantage.
The supplementary packs will be extend from 10 cards to 22 cards, so there will be a strong thematic in each of these packs.
Your cards are ok, but I can't take them if it's not in the game's structure :(.
At first I didn't understand your format idea. But now I do, and I like it. Then the First Extension Set would be comprised of 2 new Shadow Packs (1 Swarm and 1 Beatdown), and 8x 12 cards as add-ons for the 8 previous FP packs. And the number of cards per Draft Booster is raised from 13 to 15.
The add-on concept removes the problem of a card depending on another card from a different pack. Everything seems great to me. :up:
Anyway, those 12 cards of each add-on might be too little for some Themes that require a whole new game mechanic, like the "riddle" keyword for a "Riddles in the Dark" pack. And some entirely new subcultures (like [Dwarven] fortifications, Shadow [Elven] followers or Goblin-town archers). So those Themes must be portrayed in a 2nd Extension Set instead, with a different and more extensive format.
So if we won't discuss anymore the format of this First Extension, the Themes and the cards of each Theme would be the next steps to tread in that line.
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You are right :up:.
We have to make it with only these packs of 22 cards, otherwise there will be too much cards... And most of the Shadow cards will be diluted in all the Boosters.
But we can discuss about the number of cards in each supplementary pack
10 cards -> 13 cards per Booster (3 Boosters)
16 cards -> 14 cards per Booster (3 Boosters)
22 cards -> 15 cards per Booster (3 Boosters)
28 cards -> 16 cards per Booster (3 Boosters)
34 cards -> 17 cards per Booster (3 Boosters)
40 cards -> 18 cards per Booster (3 Boosters)
I think 15 cards per Booster (like Booster in Magic) is the best way to have a good partition of Shadow packs, FP packs and supplementary packs.
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For the Regroup phase problem, I see an alternative to that extensive "Site 9" text: Emyn Muil (1U360).
"Maneuver: At site 9, exert a [Gundabad] Orc to make it fierce until the regroup phase."
There will be only the skirmish phase to brind down the whole Company + participating allies. You can't add too much arrows with the Orkish Bows (which will hit an ally anyway), so the skirmishes must be doubled if we want these Gundabad Orcs to have a good chance at site 9.
Those are only 2 lines, and is much more readable than the previous text. The Orcs Army would end up using 6 game text lines:
[6] •The Orcs Army [Gundabad]
Minion • Orc
Strength 11 Vitality 4 Site 5
Each other [Gundabad] Orc is strength +1.
Regroup: Exert this minion to make the Free Peoples player wound a companion (or 2 companions if you spot 6 companions).
Maneuver: At site 9, exert a [Gundabad] Orc to make it fierce until the regroup phase.
"At site 9" can even be replaced with "At a mountain".
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Ok. I think I will skip the first line of Bolg for
"At a battleground, [Gundabad] Orcs are fierce."
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That would do it. At site 9 it can't be a drawback, and in previous sites you can trigger it at will with Watchful Orc. It also diversifies the focus of the FP player: now Thorin and Company must try to kill both The Orcs Army to erase the strength bonus and Bolg to make them lose fierce. :up:
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MMh, but I'm not sure if I will keep it. Maybe another ability not sure now on the [Gundabad] Orcs fierce at battleground. I have to think about it.
I'm not sure on the FP slot in the Wizard pack, maybe
- 2× Beorn's Horses Cost (2). [Gandalf] Possession • Support area. Gandalf is strength +1. Response: Gandalf is about to be discarded, discard this possession to prevent this. Until the end of the turn, Gandalf cannot be discarded.
Radagast's Sled, Beorn's Horses or Burning Fires Cones ?
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I change the Bolg in the new Shadow for this one:
• Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army : Cost (4). [Gundabad] Minion. Orc. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3. Damage +1. At the start of the archery phase, you may spot 2 doubts to wound a [Dwarf] companion. Regroup: If you cannot spot 3 doubts, exert Bolg to add a doubt.
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I add the sites in all the packs.
Tell me if you have any remarks on these cards, I will start their creatons next week.
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Congratz for your great job Enola!!!!I and some friends from Brazil ,just printed the cards and had so much fun playing it.
We played with 5 players so we had to improvise a little bit in the boosters but in the end was great!!!
It looks like fellowship block all over again, all the players made diferents shadows and strongs fellowships.
I ll keep looking for new updates and more sets to play, continue with this great job
congratz !!
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Thank you bebpc. It's a real pleasure you and your friends enjoy the game.
For 5 players the Boosters deck must be done for 6 players (all the cards will not be dealt) :
For 6 players (234 cards):
- 3x Free Peoples packs (3x28 cards).
- 3x Different random Supplementary packs (3x10 cards).
- 1x Shadow pack (80 cards).
- 1x Beatdown pack or Swarm pack (40 cards)
You print the cards with printerstudio ? They print the cards with the same cardboard quality as LOTR LCG.
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sadly for us the USS dolar is a very expensive....like 3 times our local money and have a lot of taxes ,so we printed our selves and play with good sleeves....its not the best but is playable =D
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My friend Enola, I'm sorry for this long absense. I was unable to connect for several reasons :(.
That version of Bolg resembles more his hunter role in the 2nd film, but works well anyway for the wounding theme. If it shows to be overpowered in the playtests, you can change the passive skill from archery to regroup. :up:
For the Thematic Packs, I'd prefer that those new names you are adding were reserved for future Extension sets. I mean, the "Riddles" add-ons are good, but don't resemble at all the Riddle game in both book and movie, we can make with that title in a future time a bunch of good "riddle" [Shire] and [Gollum] events and [Gollum] conditions with it, or some other things like the proposed "Pity" event, some stealth cards and even a different version of Gollum, Sting or The One Ring. And the same goes with other themes. For instance, Thorin's pack has no room for fortifications or cool events for Smaug or the Company. I'd leave the old names in the packs as they are, and don't add any new names that might spoil the potential of those themes for further Extension sets.
In respect of the new cards in the add-ons, I have some mixed impressions. There are good cards and others that need more work. Anyway, I love the new sites. Some need a bit of refinement, but they will give a stronger importance and funnier mechanics to the sitepath.
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sadly for us the USS dolar is a very expensive....like 3 times our local money and have a lot of taxes ,so we printed our selves and play with good sleeves....its not the best but is playable =D
Ok, I can send you the pdf with all the cards. I have to update it before ;).
My friend Enola, I'm sorry for this long absense. I was unable to connect for several reasons :(.
No problem, take your time ;).
For the Thematic Packs, I'd prefer that those new names you are adding were reserved for future Extension sets. I mean, the "Riddles" add-ons are good, but don't resemble at all the Riddle game in both book and movie, we can make with that title in a future time a bunch of good "riddle" [Shire] and [Gollum] events and [Gollum] conditions with it, or some other things like the proposed "Pity" event, some stealth cards and even a different version of Gollum, Sting or The One Ring...
If there will be future extensions, it will be in the same format as it is done now : Beatdown/Swarm pack or Supplementary pack of 22 cards.
I want that all the cards done with these new cards describe completly the book and the movies. I don't think we miss something now with these new cards.
I just update the new sites of the supplementary packs, tell me what you think about this, I will create all these cards next week ^^.
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About the sites.
- Dol Guldur: Everything is ok with this one. Allows you to retain Gandalf at a very high cost, and the Shadow number is very high. I'd add to it only one thing: battleground keyword. As far as the card room allows it. An ancient fortress must be a battleground, abandoned or not, and that adds more peril to the site besides that frightful Shadow number of [8].
If there is an exhausted companion, you cannot choose to preserve Gandalf. If you want to change that, "exert each unexhausted companion" should work.
- Great Hall: I love the concept of this site. This one seems equilibrated and powerful too. :up: But the name might be improved a bit. If you refer to that "street" or "hall" of gold in which Thorin confronts himself and throws away his crown, that is "the Gallery of the Kings". If you instead refer to the throne room where Thorin and Dwalin dispute, then "Throne Room" or "Thrór's Throne" might work well.
- On the Doorstep: The name doesn't convince me really, it's an event or situation in the book rather than a specific location... I wonder what location you do refer. Is it the "Secret Door"? In that case should be also an underground. Or is is the "Front Gate of Erebor"? I think that the Secret Door, or Thrór's Door, should be the right one given presence of the Map and the Key.
It should cost a bit more given the skill it offers to the FP player, [7] or [8]. And might allow to play the item from the draw deck too, as they enter the mountain to recover things they don't have right now.
- Northern Slopes: What can I say? Cool site. Perhaps to reduce the Shadow number by 1; if it potentially adds [2] for each doubt, adding [9] + [1] * for each companion can be too much. 8 is a good twilight number, Summit of Amon Hen is a good example of that twilight number, card drawing and doubts/burdens correlation.
- Master's House: About the name, it can be The Master's House very well, but might be Esgaroth Town Hall too. Or Esgaroth Armory if you want to represent instead the place where the Dwarves were caught stealing (BARD: "You won't find better outside the city armory"). It lacks some wording: says "At the start of the fellowship phase, exert a...", while should say "you may exert a...".
The skill is great. But can be changed to the "start of the regroup phase" instead, to reflect their need to move fast towards the montain; given the requirement it shouldn't be a big imbalance. The requirement might be extended from "exert a [Dale] ally" to "exert a [Dale] ally or 3 Dwarves", to allow a chance to steal the weapon. A last thing: each site 6 must be a river, no matter how many walls surround the place.
- The Carrock: Lovely site! You can pay the twilight cost of the follower at regroup and discard a minion by the way. It can cost [4] instead, it's very far from Rivendell and offers a strong skill.
- Ettenmoors: The Shadow number is too high, given such strong skill, [2] should be enough. The skill seems very good, except that it allows Gollum to assign himself to an unarmed Bilbo. I think it should say "Orcs are not roaming", that way excludes Gollum, Smaug, [Moria] or non-[Troll] Trolls, Spiders, Nazgul and Sauron. While Orcs are always present and plentiful in any Shadow deck.
- Forest River: Great skill! Returning Elrond can be very annoying ;). Very costly, so the Shadow number might be +1. If the card room allows, change it to "to return Gandalf or an [Elven] ally, and all cards on him or her, to its owner's hand". If we add toys for Elrond, Galadriel or Legolas in a future Extension set (Nenya, Vilya, Hadhafang, Phial of Galadriel, another Orcrist...), discarding them with this site can be really annoying, while returning them to hand allows the Shadow player to clog the opponent's hand and thus slow down both his/her FP and Shadow sides. And returning those tools to hand assures abundant twilight pool in the next turn (Glamdring + Gandy = [4] or [6]; + Wizard Staff = [6] or [8]). Another point is the possibility of adding in Extensions some [Spider] conditions, or of any other Shadow culture, bearable by companions or allies; those conditions will prefer to be returned to hand instead.
There are some sites 1 and 3 we can add in Extension sets (The Prancing Pony, "White Council" Courtyard...), but those 8 sites are awesome my friend. =D>
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Thank you, I took into account most of your ideas.
Here you can find all the new cards (see the front page of this topic):
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Updates/
Tell me what you think about all this ;).
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Thank you, I took into account most of your ideas.
Great! About Town Hall, if you remove "hand" in "hand weapon", there will very probably be enough room to add the river keyword (site keywords tend to get more importance with each Extension). That way you might also play a ranged weapon too, which includes the Black Arrow and might include the Windlance if it's added in another (or this) Extension. About the Windlance, people say that in the Extended Edition of BotFA Bard will try to use it, so it should play its part after all.
Here you can find all the new cards (see the front page of this topic):
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Updates/
Tell me what you think about all this ;).
I'll start with the 3 Nazgul cards that were modified:
(C) - 1x • Ulaire Attea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3. Fierce. Skirmish: Return an Orc to your hand to make a [Wraith] minion strength +2 (or +3 at a forest) until the regroup phase.
I'm still worried about the overpowered impact of Attea's skill. You corrected the +4 strength at a forest, but the main problem remains and is that this skill erases the chances for the FP player to counter it. If it lasts until the regroup phase, the FP player just can't try to kill the Orcs in skirmish before fighting the Nazgul. If you remove the "until the regroup phase" part, the FP player will have a way to counter it and everything should be ok.
(C) - 1x • Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4. Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to exert a companion (except Bilbo).
(C) - 1x • Ulaire Cantea, Revived: Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3.
The Nazgul will be constantly replayed and it's relatively easy to return an Orc to your hand. Thus, these 2 abilities might be overpowered if they are directed by the Shadow player. I see 2 options here: (1) to make the Free Peoples player decide who gets the exertion or wound, or (2) to add an additional cost like "remove [2]" and keep the decision in the Shadow player's hand.
(1)
Enquea: "Each time an Orc returns to your hand, you may exert Úlairë Enquëa to make the Free Peoples player exert a companion. (except Bilbo)."
Cantea: "Each time an Orc returns to your hand, you may exert Úlairë Cantëa to make the Free Peoples player wound an ally."
(2)
Enquea: "Each time an Orc returns to your hand, you may exert Úlairë Enquëa and remove [2] to exert a companion."
Cantea: "Each time an Orc returns to your hand, you may exert Úlairë Cantëa and remove [2] to wound an ally."
Please remember that Elrond and Saruman kicked their spectral skulls without much effort, so Cantea shouldn't kill them so easily.
I have more comments but those must be processed a bit more, and it's a bit late here.
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Ok for Town Hall, the text was first the same text as The Troll Hoard (site 2) but from discard pile (site 6). The Windlance gives the reason of all this.
Attea : I think he is ok now, the Attea's strategy is the same as Wicked Spider. This one works well and doesn't seem overpowered after many tests. Battle of Azanulbizar or Dwarn Take you All! are great against it. The cost of Attea is too high to have a lot of Nazguls and Orcs, even with He Is Summoning His Servants. Nazguls need to win their skirmishes.
Ok for some indirect wounds for Enquea and Cantea.
I have another question: do you think we need more quasi-similar abilities for Nazguls in order to have a more stable strategy for the Nazguls in a Draft ?
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Ok for Town Hall, the text was first the same text as The Troll Hoard (site 2) but from discard pile (site 6). The Windlance gives the reason of all this.
Ok for some indirect wounds for Enquea and Cantea.
:up: and :up:. ;)
I have another question: do you think we need more quasi-similar abilities for Nazguls in order to have a more stable strategy for the Nazguls in a Draft ?
Indeed! Redundant abilities are a clever way to make them more stable. In the Troll Pack, the other Beatdown subpack of 15 cards based on strong, fierce and unique minions, each Troll has 3 copies. Thus, if we aim for 3 different "gameplay goals" and each is distributed among 3 different abilities, the distribution would be statistically the same. But more powerful if 2 or 3 of those Nazgul happen to meet at the battlefield, which is a good thing as far as we prevent them from being excessively powerful when combined (see Attea and Toldea).
Attea : I think he is ok now, the Attea's strategy is the same as Wicked Spider. This one works well and doesn't seem overpowered after many tests. Battle of Azanulbizar or Dwarn Take you All! are great against it. The cost of Attea is too high to have a lot of Nazguls and Orcs, even with He Is Summoning His Servants. Nazguls need to win their skirmishes.
The main difference between Attea and Wicked Spider is the base strength. If we consider that Sauron (or Stealth Sorcery, cool card!) can assign him at his will, that base strength makes him too powerful if he also blocks non-event FP counters AND lasts during the 2 skirmishes of a fierce Nazgul.
Attea and Wicked Spider's skills also differ in the cost: Wicked Spider discards the Orc while Attea returns it, thus you can use Attea to preserve an Orc which otherwise would be killed for a next Shadow phase (or for Toldea's skill). Wicked Spider can't do that, and with that low base strength it makes sense to have the strength addition last during both skirmishes.
Thorin Pack:
- Dwarven Song: Great card! I think it should play [Dwarven] followers too, as the song at Bag End harangues the dwarves (and even Bilbo) to the adventure. It has some errors: it says "reveal the top 10 cards from your draw deck" while should say "of your draw deck", and it doesn't specify that you must "Shuffle your draw deck" or "Return the rest in any order". Does it allow you to play all revealed cards, or only one? It's unclear in my opinion. If it's all cards, it should say "each" like Eomer Keeper of Oaths; if it's only one, it should say "a" like Faramir Defender of Osgiliath.
If you want to give it a turn, try this: "Exert 2 [Dwarven] companions to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. You may play each [Dwarven] possession, [Dwarven] artifact or [Dwarven] follower revealed. Heal a Dwarf for each card played this way. Shuffle your draw deck." That way it becomes a gamble: if you reveal 2 or more playable cards then the exertion cost is compensated and you might even get some healing, otherwise an infructuous search will cost you wound tokens. Those are 5 card lines, while a corrected version of the current card (adding "shuffle your draw deck") uses 4.
A last thing. If there is a "Dwarven Song", there must be a "Goblin Song" too!
- The Shadow Arkenstone: I see some improvements here, but also some errors. Not needing to spot Smaug is a good thing, that way Smaug doesn't give away the most valuable part of his hoard only to play mind games with Thorin. And the restriction to "site 7 or higher" is a clever replacement to the new lack of a spotting requirement.
Errors I found are that it says "each non-Wise character", which affects minions; should say instead "each non-Wise companion or ally". And where is the strength addition? It gave its bearer power over the lords of the Seven Dwarven Houses (in the film). Bilbo was protected by Bard and Thranduil when he brought it to them. So it should give some benefit to its bearer, and I see 2 possibilities then: to make bearer strength +2, or to give strength +1 to each companion or ally of bearer's culture.
A small benefit of the strength +2 bonus is that the only way for the FP player to get rid of The Shadow Arkenstone is to send its bearer directly to death. Which excludes Bilbo, so you must kill either Thorin or Bard. Killing Thorin is always a huge loss, and Bard is harder to kill if his base strength is 8, besides being an ally who cannot fight or take arrows too easily.
A last thing: Thranduil might be included amongst the characters that can bear it, otherwise it will destroy any deck based on Elf allies. So it would end up this way:
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Strength +2
Plays on Bilbo.
At site 7 or higher, each non-Wise companion
or ally of another culture than bearer's
is strength -2.
Bilbo, Bard, Thranduil and Thorin gain this
ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to
transfer the Arkenstone to this character."
You removed the lore text, probably because Smaug doesn't give away the new Arkenstone and that previous text doesn't have any connection with your new version. I suggest this one: "'Watch it corrupt his heart and drive him mad...'"
- Thieving!: Exerting a single Orc may be too powerful, I'd change it to 2 Orcs and reduce the twilight cost to [1] or (0). And I think it should say "to discard a possession or artifact borne by a [Dwarven] companion", otherwise it will be able to discard support area cards like fortifications or The Arkenstone. If it discards possessions of any culture it can discard an Iron-Forged Weapon borne by a Dwarf. It should be a [Moria] card I think, for mere flavor as it doesn't change the gameplay at all.
I'd add this line: "You may exert The Great Goblin twice to play this event from your discard pile".
Thrain Pack:
- Du Bekâr!: I like the defender bonus and the dependence it has with Dwarven followers. And the surprise it will cause as an assignment event. But it has the problem of being a suicidal event like Disquiet Of Our People, which isn't in the spirit of Thorin's trademark war cry. I'd make the it instead a variable strength pump (depending of followers), which gives a fixed defender +1. It would be somewhat similar to Banner of the White Tree:
[1] Du Bekâr! [Dwarven]
Event • Assignment
Exert a [Dwarven] companion to make him defender +1 and strength +X until the regroup phase, where X is the number of [Dwarven] followers you spot.
- Azog, Servant of Sauron: Nice! The flavor is quite direct, he's determined to take Thráin's Ring. The Sauron culture prevents him from being mounted on huge +4 strength wargs, thus he's not unbeatable and that's a good thing. :up:
- Goblin Reinforcements: Very powerful. I fear it might be excessively powerful considering all those different twilight addition and cost reduction mechanisms for the Shadow side (Swarming Goblin would be abusive, even worse with Dark Bats), plus the dependence the Boxing Dwarves have on followers, so a limit or additional cost would be a good idea. Something like "you may remove [2] to play an Orc..." to avoid easy swarms. And it must specify the transference to a character, otherwise it will trigger when they return to support area at the end of the turn or by a card's effect (like Bofur or Gwaihir).
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Thank you for your comments.
I will answer soon. But do you have other comments on the other packs ? Because I will print (on paper) these cards soon (during next week) and if there are any changes I will re-create all cards which need to be changed in one time ;).
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Thank you for your comments.
I will answer soon. But do you have other comments on the other packs ? Because I will print (on paper) these cards soon (during next week) and if there are any changes I will re-create all cards which need to be changed in one time ;).
I have comments on all the new cards, but have to refine them before posting. And here I post about 4 more Add-ons, so only 2 Thematic packs and 2 Shadow Packs (Smaug and Azog) remain. And I think I'll post them during the next 1 or 2 days at most.
As a side note, just noticed there is not a single Troll culture card in these Add-ons. The War Axe may be borne by a Troll, but anyway can't be a match for the Troll Knife. On the opposite end, Sauron is represented by 4 cards, though that's not a bad thing considering cards like Jail...
Troll: 0
Wraith: 1
Gollum: 1
Spider: 2
Smaug: 2
Moria: 3
Gundabad: 3
Sauron: 4
Gandalf and Bilbo are those who play tricks to the Trolls, so if we were going to create a [Troll] trick or minion then it would be natural to include it in Bilbo's or the Wizard Pack in my opinion.
...
Dain Pack:
- Boar Mount: This card rocks. And rocks even more if we consider that, after the additional cards, Dain's Pack is loaded with warfare tools for both Light and Evil sides in the struggle. :up:
I think that the title and picture in this card might perhaps be changed from "Boar Mount" to "Battle Ram", considering there is only 1 Boar and lots of... er... there's 4 Rams in the (theatrical version of the) film. In the Extended version will appear those lots of rams that we saw in the movie trailers and we see in your magnificent Iron Hills Army card. Though that's a minor detail.
Perhaps a damage bonus mechanism would be a good addition. Something like "Skirmish: Exert bearer to make him damage +1". To depict the path they clear from Orcs when riding towards Ravenhill.
- War Axe: The restriction to only [Moria] Orcs doesn't make much sense to me, moreover if it's Conan Stevens' Bolg's hybrid axe-mace and there isn't yet any [Moria] version of that Orkish Veteran. I'd make it a [Sauron] weapon instead with no cultural restriction, that way you'd also be able to spot it to play Jail. Nonetheless, I like the gametext. Though to wound Bilbo directly might be too powerful. So I'd change it to "you may wound a companion (except Bilbo)" or "you may exert Bilbo or wound another companion".
- Savage Warg: Seems well equilibrated. And fierce, damage +1 (or +2) minions are always great to see in action. :up:
White Council Pack:
- Lindir: Very powerful my friend. Both skills are too strong, so I'd increase his cost to [3]. The healing skill is overpowered if lacks any cost, so I'd change it to "At the start of each of your turns, you may exert a Dwarf or an Elf to heal an ally.", that way he can still support any ally-heavy strategy but now reflecting the ancient mistrust between Dwarves and Elves (Thorin: "Close ranks!"), and recalling the good-old Shoulder to Shoulder mechanism in the meanwhile. That way at the start of your turn you can exert Elrond to heal Lindir (or any other ally), and then heal Elrond up to 2 times...
The skirmish skill is too strong, even if he wasn't able to heal himself. You can exert an unwounded Lindir twice and spot 5 Wise allies to make Bilbo strength +10, or spot 4 Wise allies for +8... So it needs a limit. And needs also to support White Council allies too, therefore I'd change it to "Skirmish: Exert Lindir to make a Free Peoples character strength +1 for each Wise character you spot (limit +3 if that character is not Wise)."
[3] •Lindir, Elven Minstrel [Elven]
Ally • Home 3 • Elf
Strength 5 Vitality 3
At the start of your turn, you may exert a Dwarf or an Elf to heal an ally.
Skirmish: Exert Lindir to make a Free Peoples character strength +1 for each Wise character you spot (limit +3 if that character is not Wise).
Still very powerful, but more equilibrated I believe.
- The Great Enemy: What can I say? Excellent! It has a little text error: it says "take in hand" while should say "take into hand". But besides that, =D>. If you want to make it more versatile, "Spot X Wise characters or remove X doubts to..." may broaden the possibilities if there are too few Wise characters to spot (or none at all); Sauron was the Great Enemy of all the Free Peoples after all.
- Stealth Sorcery: Another brilliant card here. I'd change a bit the wording of the first line: "Wise allies may participate in skirmishes". And also needs to specify an exception: "Assign a minion (except Smaug) to a companion or...". Besides that, great! I love the synergy this card will have with the Dol Guldur Blade.
Wizard Pack:
- Burning Fire Cones: I like this event very much. Maneuver is the right time for massive wounding to Orcs, in addition to Battle of Azanulbizar and exertion mechanisms in the Shadow player's hands like the Great Goblin or Azog. Though there are some details that I'd change:
1. In the title the correct word is "fir" instead of "fire" (a fir is a tree, I think "sapin" is the translation to french).
2. The twilight cost is too high if we consider that 3 is the cost of loud and spectacular things like Eagles Are Coming, Gathering of the Three Rings or Thrór's Heirlooms; [2] or [1] would be better in my opinion given the other costs of exerting Gandy and discarding a follower.
3. If we add Wargs as minions in another Extension (or in this Extension, I firmly believe that The Wolves Army MUST be a Warg) this event should wound them too; in that case it should say "to wound X Orc or Warg minions".
4. This event MUST have some interaction with forest sites. Some ideas that come to mind are "to wound X Orc or Warg minions (twice at a forest site)", or "Exert Gandalf (or spot him at a forest)", or "Then, if not at a forest site, discard a [Dwarven] follower"; or any better thing we might invent. I'd vote for the first one :twisted:.
5. Do you mean "[Dwarven] follower" or "Dwarf follower"? There's a subtle difference, because "[Dwarven] follower" includes Roäc. But this one is not an important thing after all.
- Hunting Pack: Hmmm, this is evil :cop:. Goblin Scimitar, Troll Knife, Dol Guldur Blade exerting a companion each time they get played.... I'd reduce it's power a bit. "Each time you play a possession on your Orc, you may exert that Orc to make the Free Peoples player exert a companion (or 2 companions if that Orcs is Yazneg)". The exertion requirement would set a natural limit and fit well with Warg mounts giving vitality to Orcs.
- Crawling Evil: "Maneuver: Exert 2 Spiders or discard this condition...", this card is great but must have some way of sustaining it on the board if you are playing with Spiders.
Esgaroth Pack:
- Alfrid, Lickspittle: Hmmm, I dislike this one. Alfrid has great potential for a Shadow follower, but to the Good Guys side he does absolutely nothing in the films. He helps The Master, but he isn't a good guy in PJ's interpretation. He just annoys and mocks and hinders the steps and movements of everyone in his path. For the Free Peoples card slot here, I'd rather have the Windlance instead.
However, this is what I mean with a Shadow version of Alfrid. It uses a new mechanic I've been developing for Man followers (both evil and good): "You may attach this follower at the start of the turn." It won't fit very well in this Extension, but in a future one, who knows.
[3] •Alfrid, Counselor to the Master of Lake-town [Dale] (Shadow card)
Follower • Man
Strength +1
Aid - Make each player draw a card.
Bearer must be a companion or a [Dale] Man.
You may attach this follower at the start of the turn.
Special abilities in cards of bearer's culture gain this cost: "Discard 3 cards from hand or exert a companion".
He's meant to make special abilities too expensive, thus nullifying them or making them backfire. Which includes Fellowship phase abilities, that's the point of transferring him at the start of the turn. But here I'd add the Windlance.
- Power Struggle: Another good card. But with the same problem as Goblin Reinforcements: needs to set a limit or cost, given the strength of the swarming methods created in this game. Anyway, here the cost should be lesser given the difference between ally defenders and mere followers. "Each time the Free Peoples player assigns an ally to a skirmish, you may remove [2] or discard a Shadow card from hand to play an Orc from your discard pile".
- Terrifying Legend: :up: ;D.
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Thank you a lot for your answer. I think you miss the Bilbo Pack ;).
Changes will be done next week.
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Thank you a lot for your answer. I think you miss the Bilbo Pack ;).
Changes will be done next week.
You are welcome. Bilbo and Mirkwood Pack weren't posted, but here they go:
Bilbo Pack:
- Bilbo's Pony: It lacks the "Bearer must be Bilbo" part. Seems good as a replacement for Power According to His Stature and other [Shire] wounding tricks, but feels like it lacks a disadvantage at underground sites. Something like "When the fellowship moves to an underground, add [2] or discard Bilbo's Pony". It would make a nice card struggle with Underground Lake.
- Underground Lake: "... to heal a minion twice or add a doubt (or both if you spot Gollum)". I know that these Shadow additions cannot work only with their correponding culture as they will support a randomly-chosen Shadow Pack, but they should be stronger when they work with their specific culture.
Perhaps you might exchange the doubt addition, which can be too powerful as a splash card in other corruption cultures, with a skill to turn a minion fierce: "Skirmish: Discard this condition to heal a minion twice or to make a minion fierce until the regroup phase (or both if you spot Gollum)". Fierce is almost always a strong addition and a fierce Gollum is even more powerful than just adding a direct doubt.
- Stone Giants: "Each time When the fellowship moves to site 4", see The Long Dark. Seems ok. Though if we were going to add a [Troll] card, I'd remove this one to clear a slot (such Troll card should be inside either Bilbo's Pack or the Wizard Pack).
Mirkwood Pack:
- Double Shot: Nice card for wounding. I'd like to see something to allow that Elf archer to fight Orcs (only Orcs, otherwise that archer will be used as cannon fodder to face Smaug or a Troll), so I'd add this: "You may exert Legolas or Tauriel to make him or her strength +3 and may be assigned to skirmish Orcs until the regroup phase." The idea is to allow them only to fight, not to participate in archery fire, to prevent them from taking Shadow arrows. Strength +3 seems huge, but given the low base strength and the absolute absense of pumps for elves, strength 9 would allow them to win some small fights.
- Bolg, Servant of Sauron: He's a terminator like Lurtz or his father, and being fierce always spices up the fight. :up: But strength +2 for each dead guy is extremely powerful, at the end of the game each Orc might be strength +6 or +8 for absolutely free :evil:. Therefore ensuring easy swarms, which we don't want. So change it to +1 for each, or give it a limit like "For each character in the dead pile, your Orcs are strength +2 (limit +3)". Or both strength +1 for each, AND limit +3.
- Enchanted River: "Each time When the fellowship moves to site 5", like The Long Dark. To strengthen the Spider culture, add something like this "Maneuver: At a forest site, discard this condition to discard a [Dwarven] follower. You may play a [Spider] card from your discard pile." To play a Spider minion or another Spider condition like Crawling Evil or Spider Nest (or Caught in Webs and other tricks in a next Extension). 6 card lines.
And here is the commentary about Smaug's Pack.
Shadow Smaug:
- Dragon's Malice: Looks great! :up: But given both Smaug and this condition are unique and have too low card slots, and that Smaug is somewhat hard to play and comes late, it just can't work as Worry does with Uruks. So you might add this to enhance it a bit: "(or both if he kills an ally in that skirmish)." "'You care about them, do you?! Good. Then you can watch them die!'"
- Smaug's Awakening: Seems good. Perhaps would be better if it said "discard a Shadow card from hand" or "discard a minion from hand", to reduce the chances of easy swarms.
- Wrath of the Dragon: Nice image, looks great! The text change is great too. I'd extend its effect to the support area: "...a [Dwarven] artifact or a Free Peoples support area possession." To allow Smaug to discard [Dwarven] fortifications, and other support area possessions that might come in the future like Beorn's ponies (he ate ponies in the book) or the Windlance (if it's not borne by Bard).
A thing I love about this card is that it allows you to discard the Dwarven Arkenstone in the right time to play the Shadow one, which depicts well the problems that Bilbo had when he tried to take the Arkenstone before Smaug's glance.
- Twisted Gold of Dragon: Simple and effective. Watchful Orc can turn the current site into a mountain, and then get discarded along with 2 buddies to play Smaug. :up:
- Dissension: I think that Smaug losses too much corruption potential with the change in this card (erasing the Regroup doubt addition) and the remotion of The Shadow Arkenstone to Thorin's pack. Perhaps the Smaug non-culture was too powerful in that aspect, but Smaug must be able not only to destroy tools and lives, but to inflict terror and strong mind pressure to anyone in his path. And Dissension will need to spot doubts to be effective in a skirmish, so in my opinion that Regroup skill and the original cost of [2] were in the correct direction.
The cost of playing from hand cards that a Shadow player can replay from discard should be high, either in exertion, discarding from hand, doubt removing... or twilight. That way the Shadow player will need a more complex situation to abuse its effect, so I believe that [2] is a good amount. Perhaps even [3] if playtesting proves it too good a card.
So now only the review for Azog's Pack is missing ;).
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Here is the last comment, Azog's Pack. Frankly I love the card images you made for this pack ;)...
Azog's Army (20 cards):
- Demolition Troll: :up:
- Dark Bats: :up:
- Azog, Commander of the Wolves Army: I know I said it before. But in my opinion there are too many cost reduction or twilight adding cards, and Azog should be "the head of the snake" that Thorin tries to cut off to weaken and scatter the outnumbering invaders. "While you can spot 3 [Moria] minions, each [Moria] minion is strength +2." would be better I think. And Azog himself would be a beatdown tank instead of a mere swarmer who is no match for Thorin in an one-to-one fight.
- Were-worms: Seems good by itself. But in combination with Swarming Goblin, it worries me A LOT: if you have al least 1x Dark Bats in play and the current site is battleground, you can discard the Were-worms and remove [9] to play 9 Orcs from discard. Then you play 3x Swarming Goblin to recover those [9] you just invested, and you still have 6 Orcs from discard into your hand, and each will cost -1 for each Dark Bats and Azog you have in play. And you can even take The Wolves Army from discard to replay the Were-worms, and keep the madness going over and over again...
I don't think that this Were-worms should be changed, but instead the Swarming Goblin must change. And The Wolves Army too.
- Swarming Goblin: This card is the incarnation of EVIL [-X :evil: :cop:. In teamwork with the Were-worms, this Goblin will be a non-unique Bill Ferny with strength +1. I mean, you will EASILY play much more minions than defenders, and then each of these strength 5 Goblins will be free for you to assign, just like Bill Ferny.
So I'd add a cost to add those [3]: "When you play this minion at a battleground site, you may exert a [Moria] minion to add [3]". This culture works much with exertions, and reducing the vitality resource should balance it a bit. And also exerting them will turn archery and direct wounding into viable ways to counter it (and remember that both strategies aren't so stable as they depend heavily on events).
- The Wolves Army: The ability seems good, and is well balanced in attributes and cost. Anyway, I still think that this minion should be a Warg instead, and given that there's no possession bearable by a Warg (and shouldn't), it should pump itself by spotting wounded companions: "At a battleground, The Wolves Army is strength +1 for each wounded companion."
I know that being a Warg it won't be playable from discard with Host of Thousands, Hatred Rekindled and the Were-worms, but still Azog and the Dark Bats will be able to play it or bring it back to hand. And that way the Were-worms / Wolves Army replaying cycle is prevented.
- Assaulting Goblin: Seems great my fellow! But this Orc is splashable so YOU MUST ADD A RESTRICTION (by culture or race), otherwise they will make Sauron (!), Nazgûl (!), Spiders (!!), Gollum (!!!) and SMAUG (!!!!!) very dangerous and problematic. "Skirmish: Exert this minion to make another Orc or [Moria] minion strength +2 (or +4 if at a battleground)." That way it will be able to pump [Moria] Trolls, [Moria] Wargs, and any Orc like the [Gundabad] and [Sauron] versions of Bolg and Azog.
Maybe +4 strength at a battleground is too much and should be +3 instead, but only playtesting will prove me right or wrong.
- Vicious Warg: The skill and attributes seem ok, except for that vitality addition which is too strong. Reduce it to +1. Remember that this culture will use vitality as its most valuable resource (even above twilight) so +2 vitality will devastate the balance. And to equilibrate, reduce the cost to [2].
With vitality +2 not only Azog will be excessively powerful, but Assaulting Goblin will be a huge pain too.
So here it is. The last piece of the commentaries. Hope they are useful.
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I'm procrastinating so I took a look at the swarm cards. I don't know all the cards in the format, so I'm not an expert, but I believe you're playing Rule of 9. This is crazy - is there a constructed format?
Assaulting Goblin needs to be culturally restricted - I'd say Moria Orc myself. Maybe all Orcs is OK.
For me the problem card is Were-worms. Very few cards get to play multiple cards from the discard pile: Ulaire Nertea from set 1 and Relics of Moria. One of those is Banned in extended and the other is R-listed in a format with Madril and 9 companion starts! That should say something. And you have Host of Thousands which lets me pull what I need to start the chain.
Just quickly looking, honestly I think I can play 20 minions at site 9 with this setup. If you're ever planning a constructed format this would be crazy.
3 Host of Thousands
2 Were-worms
3 Dark Bats
1 Smaug
4 Swarming Goblin
4 Assaulting Goblin
4 Goblin Vanguard (to replay Were-worms and Dark Bats)
1 Yazneg
1 Narzug
2 Azog Commander
1 Watchful Orc (to add battleground)
2 Orkish Marauder (to wound big fellowships)
3 Orkish Aggressor
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@ Ramolnar: I'm glad to see your commentary and the help it brings. You are mentioning some very important points. Very welcome! ;)
I'm procrastinating so I took a look at the swarm cards. I don't know all the cards in the format, so I'm not an expert, but I believe you're playing Rule of 9. This is crazy - is there a constructed format?
There isn't YET a constructed format, but if this is going to be included in Gemp constructed will be the main format, and as you point out that can mean huge troubles. And constructed format is not limited to Gemp only, as anyone can print multiple copies of these cards to play constructed games with their friends...
So we must build those new cards of the new packs the way songs like Pinball Wizard or Another Brick In The Wall part 2 were composed: meant to work both very differently and marvelously well in 2 completely different contexts (as the sole piece of attention and as a mere chapter in a much longer creation). Here those 2 contexts (constructed and draft) differ in the number of available packs and copies of cards to combine. So we must keep creating the new cards thinking in the copies and possible interactions they will have in the Draft Game, but also thinking in all possible combinations they might have with any other card (regardless of pack), having up to 4 copies each.
Assaulting Goblin needs to be culturally restricted - I'd say Moria Orc myself. Maybe all Orcs is OK.
The restriction is an imperative need, is too powerful and somewhat nonsensical to help any minion. Restricted to "any Orc" allows interaction between Azog's Moria army and Bolg's Gundabad army, or the [Sauron] versions of Azog and Bolg. But if it were "any Orc and [Moria] minion" it would allow the Assaulting Goblin to support [Moria] Trolls and [Moria] Wargs, and that'd represent Azog's army in a better way I think.
For me the problem card is Were-worms. Very few cards get to play multiple cards from the discard pile: Ulaire Nertea from set 1 and Relics of Moria. One of those is Banned in extended and the other is R-listed in a format with Madril and 9 companion starts! That should say something. And you have Host of Thousands which lets me pull what I need to start the chain.
Hmmmm, you are very right. Removing [X] to replay X minions is a heavy cost if X is a big number, EXCEPT if you have 1 or more Dark Bats reducing the cost of the whole bunch, and is even less costly if you can add loads of twilight with Swarming Goblin.
A possible solution is to add a side cost to that [X]. Something like "Shadow: Remove [X] and discard X cards from hand to take X minions...", that way you prevent the Shadow player from recovering more minions than cards in hand. Then at maneuver Azog can play more minions trying to pull a swarm...
Just quickly looking, honestly I think I can play 20 minions at site 9 with this setup. If you're ever planning a constructed format this would be crazy.
3 Host of Thousands
2 Were-worms
3 Dark Bats
1 Smaug
4 Swarming Goblin
4 Assaulting Goblin
4 Goblin Vanguard (to replay Were-worms and Dark Bats)
1 Yazneg
1 Narzug
2 Azog Commander
1 Watchful Orc (to add battleground)
2 Orkish Marauder (to wound big fellowships)
3 Orkish Aggressor
In a constructed format you might even add 4x Goblin Runner (exactly the same as Decipher's). So it's very worrisome.
Anyway, the problem with Goblin Vanguard was strongly reduced when that Orc was removed, and although its text was preserved the minion that holds it is unique: The Wolves Army. So an almost endless cycle of Were-worms/Vanguard is not possible anymore, as The Wolves Army can only retrieve it once. Anyway, that loop should be reduced even more: the Were-worms can play only Orc minions. And The Wolves Army should be a Warg minion instead of an Orc, if that is changed only Azog Commander will play it from discard at Maneuver (and Were-worms works at Shadow), or Dark Bats will recover it to hand at regroup, and that delays the loop to the next site.
But, again, I agree totally with you: the Were-worms can be a really troublesome card, as far as it doesn't have a limit or a heavy side cost like discarding X cards from hand, or removing X doubts.
Again, thanks for your help :).
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Thank you a lot for all your comments. I put all the new updates here.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
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Shadow Smaug (15 cards):
(C) - 2x • Dragon's Malice : I change it a bit, maybe it's too strong now ? Smaug with Rhudaur can bring this condition soon in the game. We had to playtest it.
(C) - 3x Smaug's Awakening: I change for a discarded minion from hand.
Shadow: Discard a minion from hand to make each site on the adventure path gain mountain until the end of the turn.
(C) - 3x • Wrath of the Dragon: the sentence "Free Peoples artifact or possession in his or her support area" was too complicated. I will keep it like this.
(C) - 3x Dissension: This event is ok now, we have to test it now.
Shadow Azog's Army (20 cards):
- 3x • Azog, Commander of the Wolves Army : He is also the key minion, the Shadow player needs to swarm all fellowship.
(C) - 2x • The Wolves Army : Only 2 copies. I don't want Warg minion card.
(C) - 3x Swarming Goblin : Ok I change it.
(C) - 3x Assaulting Goblin : Same.
(C) - 3x Vicious Warg : Ok for only +1 in vitality.
- (C) 2x Dark Bats : Only 2 copies, and I reduce it to battleground. Also, it will only return minions in hand.
(C) - 2x • Were-worms : The size of the Shadow player's hand will be now take into account.
Shadow: Remove (X) and discard X Shadow cards from hand to take X Orcs from your discard pile into hand. Discard this condition.
Thorin Pack:
(C) - 2x Dwarven Song : Ok, so I reduce it to 7 cards.
[Dwarven] Event - Regroup. Exert a [Dwarf] companion to reveal the top 7 cards of your draw deck. You may play any [Dwarf] possession, [Dwarf] artifact and [Dwarf] follower revealed. Shuffle your draw deck.
(C) - 3x • The Arkenstone, King's Jewel : During tests, the +2 in strength wasn't really attractive for the Shadow player.
(C) - 2x Goblin Song : Ok for these changes.
Thrain Pack:
(C) - 2× Du Bekâr! : Ok.
[Dwarven] Event - Assignment. Spot 2 [Dwarf] followers to make a [Dwarf] companion defender +1 and strength +X until the regroup phase, where X is the number of [Dwarf] followers you can spot.
(C) - 2× • Goblin Reinforcements : It's ok : Ranks Without Number (4U170)
Bilbo Pack:
(C) - 2x • Bilbo's Pony : It was far too long with your text. So it just doesn't work in the underground site.
(C) - 3× Underground Lake : Your version was too complicated, I keep the old one.
(C) - 2x • Stone Giants : We don't really need Troll cards. And Stone Giants are an important part of the story.
White council Pack:
(C) - 2x • Lindir, Elven Minstrel : I think it's balanced now.
Skirmish: Exert Lindir to make a minion strength -1 for each Wise character you spot (limit -3).
(C) - 3x The Great Enemy : Ok.
(C) - 2x Stealth Sorcery : Ok.
Wizard pack:
(C) - 2x Burning Fir Cones : The text is now a bit complicated and focus more on only one big minion (like a Warg)
Gandalf] Event - Maneuver. Spell. Exert Gandalf and spot X [Dwarf] followers to wound a minion X times (except Smaug). Then, if the fellowship is not at a forest, discard a [Dwarf] follower.
(C) - 3x • Hunting Pack : It's also a card for the Troll culture.
(C) - 2× Crawling Evil : Ok for 2 Spiders.
Dain Pack:
(C) - 2× Battle Ram : Ok.
(C) - 3x War Axe : I change it to manage all the [Dwarf] possessions in the pack.
(C) - 2× Savage Warg : More Savage with this. I create a Warg minion. Response: If bearer is killed, this possession becomes a fierce Warg minion until the end of the turn that has 8 strength and 2 vitality, and cannot bear other cards. This card is still a possession.
Esgaroth Pack:
(C) - 2x • Alfrid, Lickspittle : I don't want any Shadow follower. I think he is selfish and cowardly, and try to stop the fellowship, but like Denethor he has to be with his people.
(C) - 3× • Power Struggle : It's ok : Ranks Without Number (4U170)
(C) - 2× Terrifying Legend : Ok.
Mirkwood pack:
(C) - 2× The Evil Becomes Stronger : I change it.
[Elf] Event - Archery. Spot an [Elf] ally whose home is site 5 to exert 2 minions. Until the regroup phase, that ally partipates in archery fire and skirmishes.
(C) - 3× • Bolg, Servant of Sauron : I think it's ok now.
For each character in the dead pile, your Orcs are strength +1 (limit +3).
(C) - 2× Enchanted River : It's a general condition, not specifically Spider.
Thank you for the time you take to improve this game :).
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Thank you for the time you take to improve this game :).
It has been an honour and a funny experience. And hundreds or even thousands will have fun with the final product. So I must thank you too ;).
* Let's start with the cards in which we plainly agree:
- Lindir, Elven Minstrel: :up: Good reasoning, seems equilibrated.
- The Great Enemy: :up:
- Azog, Servant: :up:
- Dwarven Song: :up:
- Bilbo's Pony: :up: Clever solution to the underground theme. And I like the strength bonus ;).
- Burning Fir Cones: :up: Well done! =D> Beautiful card, I love the way the picture combines with the [Gandalf] template. It will be a nice surprise at the later sites, with 2 or more [Dwarven] followers.
- Crawling Evil: :up:
- Bolg, Servant: :up: Well attuned. At the later stages the limit will prove worth of being added.
- Terrifying Legend: :up:
- Power Struggle: :up: Yes, I had forgotten Ranks Without Number. This one doesn't reducce the cost, so it seems well I think.
* Strong agreement with some suggestions or minor discrepancies:
- Dû Bekar!: I like it. And replacing the exertion with a spotting requirement is clever :up:. But there's a single thing I dislike about this card: the picture. The Dwarves, or a single Dwarf, should be confronting the enemy lines like in Azanulbizar or the Battle of the Five Armies (or even when fleeing from Goblin Town, there are lots of lovely pictures in that scene), but in the picture you chose the only thing they confront is the camera [-X.
- Goblin Song: Same as above. I love the way you mixed the suggestions. But I'd change the picture to something closer to the Great Goblin singing one of his 2 songs. And the lore text too, if not a part of the song, then perhaps Balin saying after the 1st one "That's not a song. It's an abomination!".
- Battle Ram: :up: Though I'd like to add some damage bonus, like "At a battleground site, bearer is damage +1". Or something more risky, like "At the start of each skirmish involving bearer, you may exert him to make him damage +1", if bearer unexpectedly loses then the exertion will backfire and perhaps kill him.
- Savage Warg: :up: From mount possession to a fierce minion, such a bold change. Bravo! =D> But must be strength 9, with only strength 8 won't have so many chances of winning a skirmish, and from 8 to 9 doesn't change at all its potential to overwhelm so it's not an aggresive change. A last thing: perhaps might be "if bearer is discarded, this possession becomes...", considering that if a minion is killed is then discarded, and then cards that discard Orcs/minions like Barrels or Twisted Gold of Dragon might trigger it too.
The part that states it cannot bear other cards is not necessary at all (because this card won't "return" to support area like A Shadow Rises or Radagast Deceived, will be discarded at the end of the turn as any other minion). It will even prevent the Warg from bearing a fortification, if we create in a future Extension a [Dale] or [Dwarven] fortification that must be transferred to a minion.
- Enchanted River: The current version seems good, but might be better when working with Spiders. I think that all these new splashable conditions should work better when working with minions of their own culture. That is the case with Crawling Evil and Stealth Sorcery. If you change "if the fellowship is at a forest site" with "at a forest site", there's enough room for my suggestion ("At a forest site, discard this condition to discard a [Dwarven] follower. You may play a [Spider] card from your discard pile."). Anyway, it's still a good card as it is. But please change the lore text, to something like this (from the book): "'Bombur has fallen in! Bombur is drowning!' he cried." ;).
- Stealth Sorcery: I've been thinking about the mechanism of this card. The first line doesn't provide a real option to the FP player to assign his/her Wise allies, and that removes any possible disadvantage to this extremely powerful card. I mean, if the Shadow player chooses to discard this card after using it (once or more times in the same assignment phase), then an unassigned Radagast or Elrond won't be able to fight at all. It's too powerful to lack any built-in disadvantage or counter; Sauron allows the companion to exert instead but this doesn't. But it can be solved easily I believe: "At the start of the assignment phase, make Wise allies may participate in skirmishes". After being discarded, Wise allies will still be able to fight and that'd be more balanced and representative I think.
Obviously, there's More Yet To Come.
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Ok I change all this except the followings :
- Du Bekar : New card! ;)
- Savage Warg : I prefer "killed" in order to avoid any combo. It's also more thematic ^^.
- Goblin Song : I prefer the picture where we see [Dwarf] weapons.
- Stealth Sorcery : I change it for "until the end of the turn", like the move limit rule.
- Enchanted River: I didn't change the lore text yet. I prefer to keep it likre this now (a general condition like Stone Giants).
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- Savage Warg: Ok for "killed" instead of "discarded" or "killed or discarded". And great for strength 9. But there are 2 things I dislike: vitality 1 is too little, 2 was better; and remove the "and cannot bear other cards", it's not needed as unlike A Shadow Rises it will not return to the support area but instead will be discarded as a regular minion at the end of the turn. Even in the case of A Shadow Rises, it can bear other cards under very specific circumstances, and those are discarded anyway when A Shadow Rises is converted into a minion again:
"NOTES: When you make this card a minion, move it out of your support area. When this card is no longer a minion, move it back to your support area. For example: if a character bearing Phial of Galadriel, Starglass is skirmishing A Shadow Rises and discards the Phial of Galadriel, A Shadow Rises loses “Fierce” and can bear other cards. If A Shadow Rises bears cards when its maneuver special ability is used, those cards are discarded."
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/lotr11216
So besides not being needed at all (there isn't a possession that may be borne by any minion, by any [Gundabad] minion or by a Warg), it will prevent Free Peoples cards like fortifications from being transferred to Savage Warg. And wastes some card room ;).
- War Axe: I like the goal of the new text, but... should this weapon discard The One Ring if Bilbo loses against bearer? It MUST be possessions and followers only. And I think that should discard only 1 card at your choice, it's a response action so you can use it more than once per victory, as far as you have vitality to keep exerting. Will be borne by high vitality minions like Trolls and Wargriders, and the FP player can try to control bearer's vitality in order to defend some possessions and followers. And unlike the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór, it can be replayed by Goblin Footman, so it will be very persistent.
- Stealth Sorcery: I was thinking in the same move limit rule. But that rule is clear only to experienced people and to new players it may lead to confusion. Instead, "At the start of the maneuver/assignement phase, MAKE Wise allies... until the regroup phase/end of the turn" can't generate any doubt to new players. Anyway, I'm glad that you accepted the need of adding a sustained counter ;).
The previous suggestions, "At the start of the assignment phase, make Wise allies may participate in skirmishes" may be enough as it lasts during the same assignment phase when it's discarded.
- Enchanted River: I didn't notice before but Enchanted River should be unique, or else the exertions when moving to site 5 will stack.
- Underground Lake: I don't like the cost of this card. Gives too much for too little: healing a minion twice and adding a doubt, without having to exert or spot anyone, discard X Shadow cards from hand/play, or win a skirmish. Besides, MUST be unique, imagine some copies of this card and a mounted Assaulting Goblin (for a vitality bonus): the Goblin might exert twice to make a fellow Orc strength +6, and repeat once (+ adding a doubt) per each copy you discard... too much I think.
It can be too easy to add doubts with this and Stone Giants, not only in a constructed format but also in a Draft Game. I'd change it to this:
"[1] Underground Lake [Gollum]. Condition • Support Area. Each site on the adventure is an underground. Response: If Bilbo loses a skirmish, discard this condition to add a doubt and heal a minion twice."
If Gollum is not present, you can always force Bilbo to fight or add a doubt with Orkish Aggressor. Given the response trigger, might be non-unique without too much problem.
- Stone Giants: Seems good by itself: is unique, requires a mountain site and to play a minion in the Shadow phase (otherwise there won't be a Maneuver phase) and to remove [2]. But there's a combo that worries me a bit: The Wolves Army. You can discard this at maneuver for a doubt, then exert Azog to play The Wolves Army and repeat the Stone Giants (which need [2] to be played and [2] again to add a doubt); once per turn. Frankly, I can't see if it's an overpowered combo or just a moderate one, so try to put some attention to this trick in the playtesting.
- Goblin Reinforcements: Ranks Without Number can be compared to Power Struggle very well, but not to this one. That's because there's a huge difference between an attached follower and a defender ally. Followers here replace weapons and other recurrent ways of pumping strength or giving skills (that otherwise'd be portrayed by means of allies, possessions, conditions and events). On the other hand, a defending ally means a minion less for a swarm or a beatdown on the fellowship. Plus, we have to considerate the problem of Swarming Goblin and Goblin Runner adding twilight (or Dark Bats reducing that Orc's cost to 0), while [Isengard] minions don't provide such threats... To sum up, cripples too much the Company and is too powerful without an additional cost like "discard a Shadow card from hand to" or "remove [2] to".
- The Evil Becomes Stronger: Good title! :up: There's a missing word in the lore text: "Tell me, mellon, when...".
I like most of it, except that the previous version excluded Thranduil (as he isn't an archer) and the new one doesn't; and that Legolas and Tauriel won't win any skirmish without a strength bonus (except against a Goblin Runner or Swarming Goblin), so they require a strength pump included in this card. Perhaps calling Thranduil to fight is too much: he's too strong, he can allow himself with his own text and he didn't want his people helping the Dwarves. Only "[elven] archers" would mean only Legolas, Tauriel and Elf Army (all Mirkwood Elves except Thranduil).
As said before, Legolas and Tauriel need a pump, while Thranduil would be too powerful when pumped. And I don't know if they should fight ANY minion (Orcs, Trolls, Wargs, Nazgûl, Sauron and... yes, Smaug), so I'd limit it to only Orcs and perhaps Trolls too: "Spot an [Elven] archer to exert 2 minions. Until the regroup phase, that ally partipates in archery fire, is strength +2 and may be assigned to skirmish Orcs."
Or even your idea of "an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5" which includes Thranduil, but I don't like to allow so easily a Mirkwood Elf to be a cannon fodder against Smaug, or to fight the Nazgûl (which only companions and Wise allies should do). Only Orcs (and perhaps Trolls or Wargs). Given the current cards you can use Thranduil at site 8 to face Smaug: you exert Thorin twice or discard a [Dwarven] artifact, and a fully healed Thranduil will survive the 1st skirmish before Smaug and die in the 2nd; my point is, I think we don't want to make it easier.
- Alfrid: Hmmm, add the Windlance instead of Alfrid. Or Percy, he supported Bard before Smaug's attack and after that he was his lieutenant...
Denethor can't be compared to a mere invented wicked couselor. He's not only a character made by Tolkien, he's one of his most complex and developed: Denethor II was the ruler of Gondor and keeper of the Throne, father of Boromir and Faramir. He organized the defence of Minas Tirith, and even won a struggle of wills against Sauron himself. Denethor II and Aragorn II met when the ranger was in service to Steward Ecthelion II under the name of "Thorongil", and both rivaled in knowledge, bravery, strength, military skills and the love of their people.
I never liked the way Denethor and the cards that surround him were made by Decipher, they depose him of all his role and character. When young he was a valaint and fearsome fighter and captain like Boromir but then he assumed the stewardship, and the Steward was banned from leaving the walls of Minas Tirith while the King wasn't present. So he shouldn't have been a mere strength 8 defender, instead should have provided powerful tricks and bonuses to other Gondorians and to Pippin while he hasn't been assigned by the FP player. More or less like a wicked version of Gandalf. And the Palantír should have been a key card in the King Block, not a mere stone in Reflections set...
"'Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'
He stood up and cast open his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and girt with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. 'Thus have I walked, and thus now for many years have I slept,' he said, 'lest with age the body should grow soft and timid.'"
On the other hand, Alfrid was created to be another Grima, but with less poetry. And he acts as such. There isn't a single FP [Rohan] version of Grima. A Shadow follower version of Alfrid fits better, or even a minion version (which can't participate in archery nor skirmishes). But we are talking about the FP card slot of the Esgaroth Add-ons, therefore Percy or the Windlance should take that place. Or even Athelas. For the Windlance I have only vague ideas, not yet a card; for Percy I've been working on these are 2 versions:
[2] •Percy, Bard's Lieutenant [Dale]
Ally • Home 6 • Man
Strength 6 Vitality 3
Archer.
While another [Dale] Man may participate in skirmishes, Percy may participate in archery fire and skirmishes.
Skirmish: Exert Percy to make a [Dale] Man strength +2 until the regroup phase.
"'Bard! Orcs are storming over the causeway!'"
[2] •Percy, Porter of Lake-town [Dale]
Follower • Man
Strength +1 Vitality +1
Aid - Exert a [Dale] ally and add [2].
Bearer must be a companion or ally.
Bearer is an archer. If bearer is a [Dale] Man, each [Dale] ally is strength +1 and gains home site 9.
"'He brought the beast down! Shot him dead with a Black Arrow.'"
The addition of home site 9 is another way of making Dale men fight at the Battle of the 5 Armies.
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- Du Bekâr!: Hmmm, the new version is too expensive and the effect is too soft. Swarming shadows love undirected wounding, and the cost of discarding [Dwarven] cards in play means (in absense of conditions) to discard followers, possessions, allies and artifacts, all very useful (perhaps Thrór's Key and Thrór's Map are easily disposable). It doesn't allow you to either pay exertions nor to direct those wounds, so the wounds will be too little and the Shadow player will choose high vitality minions or unneeded weak minions as targets, and that's all. I'd add [Dwarven] exertions as a possible cost, and direct yourself the wounds to minions (except Smaug):
[3] Du Bekâr! [Dwarven]
Event • Assignment
Exert any number of [Dwarven] characters and discard any number of [Dwarven] cards in play (except companions) to wound a minion (except Smaug) for each exertion and each [Dwarven] card discarded.
Still very expensive (exertions are rarely cheap), but now the other side takes a worthy damage.
In respect of the picture, Thorin looks too worried for his grampa's head is no longer over his gampa's shoulders. I'd use instead a picture when Thorin leads the charging Dwarvish line against the Orcs, from 0:50:52 to 0:50:54 in An Unexpected Journey (Extended Edition); I love the twist of the camera there! Or a picture of the Company emerging from the Front Gate of Erebor towards the Battle of the Five Armies.
- Twisted Gold of Dragon: I found a problem with this card: can discard Narzug. And given the rules, you have to play a card from discard pile or hand if you use an ability or event to do so, but from draw deck you aren't forced, so you can replay Narzug and discard him as far as resources allow you, to destroy any ally in your path. Add "(except Narzug)".
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- Savage Warg : I prefer a 1 Vitality minion, in order to avoid wound counters on this card.
- War Axe : I change it. I wanted a strong hand weapon which can discard all (and the One Ring), but ok.
- Enchanted River : Ok thanks :).
- Underground Lake -> new Gollum.
- The Evil Becomes Stronger : Ok, I change the card and the quantities of each [Elf] card.
- Stone Giants & Goblin Reinforcements : We will test them first.
- Alfrid : Sorry, but I prefer to keep him as a FP card.
- Du Bekâr! : New card.
- Twisted Gold of Dragon : I don't think there is any problem. Narzug still works well with Trolls, but it's very expensive.
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- War Axe: As an "each time bearer wins..." action is good, but might be a "Response: if bearer wins a skirmish" action too; vitality would fix a natural limit. If remains as an "each time" action, it must be optional: "you may exert it to discard...".
- The Shadow Arkenstone: Ufff, this is the most complicated card of the whole set. And you still don't refer to adding Thranduil as a possible bearer ;).
Hmmm, I agree that the +2 bonus is too strong if the Shadow player wants to overwhelm Bilbo (he/she requires +4 strength to overwhelm, or +6 if Bilbo bears Dori), but the Arkenstone must give some small benefit along with that powerful advantage to the Shadow side. A vitality +1 bonus might work well. And even a printed strength +1 bonus (+2 only to overwhelm, or +3 if Dori), with resistance -2 to compensate and to make Bilbo's danger of corruption be the same if he keeps the Arkenstone or if he hands it over to another person (inciting the FP player to give it to Thorin, Bard or Thranduil, with the associated strength reduction to Bilbo).
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Strength +1 Vitality +1 Resistance -2
Plays on Bilbo at site 7 or higher.
Each non-Wise companion or ally of another
culture than bearer's is strength -2.
Bilbo, Bard, Thranduil and Thorin gain this
ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to
transfer the Arkenstone to this character."
"'For the Arkenstone of my father, is worth more than
a river of gold in itself, and to me it is beyond price.'"
I relocated the "While at site 7 or higher" part to the "Plays on Bilbo" part, I think it makes more sense to play the Arkenstone only at Erebor and that way a card line gets freed. I used that card line for a longer lore text, which is Thorin talking to his Company in the book.
During tests, the +2 in strength wasn't really attractive for the Shadow player.
I firmly believe that a printed -2 resistance bonus will be very appealing for the Shadow players to attach this tool to Bilbo ;).
- Gollum, Bound to the Ring: I must bow to you and your creativity. Great idea sir! :up: Anyway, requiring to protect only 3 vitality to discard Sting, The One Ring, the Burglar's Contract, the Old Thrush or Bilbo's Pony is very dangerous, because Bilbo can't have a damage bonus (except if bearing Bombur) so he won't wound Gollum twice in a single skirmish (unless by Bilbo's Pony's text at a non-underground). A solution to this might be very simple: give Gollum the fierce keyword. That way Bilbo can try to defeat him twice and keep his toys, or Gollum will cause him twice the trouble (can even win one and lose the other, and still at regroup discard an item).
- Alfrid: Ok if you want to keep Alfrid as a FP card, but I really believe that the old but fearless Percy, Bard's second in command should be a better investment for that sole FP card slot in this Extension. Percy faced the outnumbering Orc armies with his bow, his sword, his bravery and a misorganized crowd of militia men. Or Hilda Bianca, the herbs tradeswoman who leads the militia women. Or the Dwarvish Windlance (BALIN: "The last time we saw such a weapon, a city was on fire"). Or the Athelas. All those and Alfrid are invented characters/items for the films. But Alfrid didn't really help anyone at all and instead fled from the battleground. I'm waiting to see what you think about those 2 versions of Percy.
I'm not of those who hate the creation of Alfrid Lickspittle. I'd rather have more screen time for more important things like Beorn, Radagast, Saruman, the Eagles, the 13 Dwarves at the battleground, Thorin's funeral (filmed but cut off by Warner; PJ hated that decision)... but frankly I did laugh with the jokes involving Alfrid. There's always a wicked, resentful bloodsucker in each town hall and each family. The point in my argument is that Alfrid doesn't help while others gave their blood, sweat and life in the battle.
- Savage Warg : :up:
- Enchanted River : :up:
- The Evil Becomes Stronger : :up:
- Stone Giants : I was refering to the picture version, which has a Maneuver ability. Your text version in the 1st post says it's a Skirmish ability, and at a skirmish the "Wolves Army loop" can't work, so keep it as a Skirmish ability.
- Twisted Gold of Dragon : Ok for Narzug then. Discarding simultaneously 3 Orcs is very hard to repeat at the same Shadow phase. :up:
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Thank you, I modified the cards with most of your ideas.
Arkenstone: I don't want a card which stick the Shadow player's hand and I avoid any effect before site 7 (strength, vitality or resistance).
Gollum: With Kili, Bombur and all the wounding events, I think Bilbo can handle this problem.
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- Gollum: That's ok. :up: This card must provide a good threat without depending on support cards like If He Loses and Better Than Nothing, as in most cases it won't coincide with the Gollum Pack of Beatdown Pack 1.
Azog's Army Pack:
- Swarming Goblin: :up: Exerting will allow the FP player to defend him(her)self with archery and wounding.
- Assaulting Goblin: :up:
- Vicious Warg: :up: +2 Vitality was too much.
- Were-worms: :up: Now to spit out an excessive quantity of Orcs with this trick will be impossible, the condition exchanges a Shadow card in hand for an Orc.
- Azog, Commander: I agree that he's a key minion to play. But not a key minion to mantain of the board, if he gets killed his Army won't change a bit. He's mainly there to play a good bunch of minions, and after that he's totally expendable. But in the films, when Thorin distracted him from giving orders to his troops and finally killed him, that was crucial to beat the Moria/Dol Guldur Army present in the field (and the coming Gundabad Army). As a "Commander of Legions" his role wasn't to only gather an army, but to skillfully lead it to the victory, and that's why Thorin wanted to "cut off the head of the snake".
That story flavor is what I try to portray in my proposal of "While you can spot 3 [Moria] minions, your [Moria] minions are strength +2", instead of merely reducing their cost.
- The Wolves Army: Hmmm, at one point you said you didn't want Warg minions, but later you made the Savage Warg turn itself into a Warg minion if its rider gets killed. I'm glad for Savage Warg, it's such a bold and creative invention. But I think that changing the Wolves Army to be a Warg minion would be in the same line. And would prevent it from being replayed by Host of Thousands, Hatred Rekindled and Were-worms, reducing its effect in loops and combos with [Moria] conditions like the Were-worms.
But let's think a bit more freely. What if you change it from "you may play a [Moria] condition from your draw deck or discard pile" to "you may play a [Moria] card from your draw deck or discard pile"? Like Host of Moria of Reflections, but broader. Both cases are expensive and unique, thus combos are limited by twilight and loops are impossible. That way you might bring a Demolition Troll, a specific Orc, a possession like the Vicious Warg (or a Goblin Scimitar if both Swarm Packs are in play)... I'd change The Wolves Army to this:
[6] •The Wolves Army [Moria]
Minion • Warg
Strength 10 Vitality 4 Site 4
Fierce.
When you play this minion, you may play a [Moria] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
While at a battleground, this minion is strength +1 for each wounded companion.
As said in a previous post, the strength addition related to wounded companions is there to replace possessions.
- Dark Bats: I don't know if this card needs to be changed from "take into hand from discard" to "return to hand from play". Nor if it needs to be reduced in copies. Given the previous changes in text and copies to other cards like Swarming Goblin, The Wolves Army and the Were-worms, reducing the power and/or copies of this card can be too much.
Returning a minion to hand is much less powerful for 3 reasons: it requires the minion to survive until regroup, doesn't allow you to choose any minion given the specific needs, and returning a minion to hand means that you will have to replay that minion if the fellowship moves again. That last point can give you some advantage, to play again Azog or The Wolves Army if they weren't killed. But except for that, each point is relatively a disadvantage.
My point is that such a change to Dark Bats might need to be playtested before concluding anything, that's all.
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Ok, but we will first test the current cards now. We will see then ;).
And I don't want Warg minion card, if it could be more accurate.
I also changed the 4 Bilbo (Gollum was too strong).
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This is a general "OK" for Smaug, but the reasons are detailed:
Smaug Pack:
- Dragon's Malice: :up: Great picture! I can't decide what frightens me more, if the new text or the new image. Bilbo will have good vitality additions (The One Ring and the Mithril Coat) and healing (Elrond and Lore of Imladris), so exerting him twice shouldn't be excessive. Smaug won't fight enough times to make this card a sole mechanism of corruption. :up: again.
- Smaug's Awakening: :up: Discarding a minion will reduce the chances of pulling a Swarm, lead by Smaug himself.
- Wrath of the Dragon: :up: Cool new pic! Ok for only [Dwarven] artifacts.
- Dissension: :up: With the new version of Dragon's Malice, gathering doubts won't be so hard without Dissension collaborating to it.
Ok for testing things as are by now. I'm waiting for it to happen, and the report to come ;).
But you still don't say a word about those 2 versions of Percy.
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Thank you for all your comments.
The 4 Bilbo seem good ?
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Indeed those changes look great. Four different ways to counter Gollum, instead of one sole generic skill amongst the 4. :up:
I have a question regarding Bilbo, Reliable Companion. Does that strength +1 ability work good enough? We agreed time ago that 2 exertions are better than 1 (to prevent an abuse of the skill), that's right. But I wonder if +1 strength is worthy of 2 exertions, might be +2 to make the effect more appropiate, although I've never playtested the cards so I can't know for sure. Gimli Unbidden Guest exerts once for +1, so if we keep that proportion Bilbo Reliable Companion should exert twice for +2. Just a thought.
If the cards of Main Deck can still be changed, I think there are some errors in the lore text of some Main Deck cards, like Hatred Rekindled. That lore text you chose tells about the FP armies gathering around Thorin's company for a new charge, it's hope and not despair what describes.
(C) - 3x • Hunting Pack : Cost (2). [Gundabad] Condition • Support area. Each time you play a possession, you may exert an Orc to make the Free Peoples player exert a companion (or 2 companions if that Orc is Yazneg).
- Hunting Pack: I omitted this card when analizing the add-ons #-o...
This card will be too powerful I think. The part that worries me most is the boost regarding Yazneg. And combined with Azog the Defiler playing mounts it will destroy the Company too easily. With both on the board, oh my: you play Azog and Yazneg ([5]), and then play 2 mounts ([4] to [8] more) and exert Yazneg twice for a total of 6 exertions in the Shadow phase (!!!), that's before the normal and fierce skirmishes. Very expensive (9 to 13 twilight), but after pulling this combo Azog will find little resistance in his 2 skirmishes. And you can keep playing mounts and exerting Orcs, to exert 2 companions each time, as far as the twilight allows you...
What can/should be done? I don't know, the very nature of this card will be too powerful and thus troublesome, but at least that boost with Yazneg can be removed. Maybe if the cost is changed from "exert an Orc" to "spot an Orc and remove [2]", exertions are often much cheaper than twilight.
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After the last test, here are the possible next updates:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates.html
Nazguls
1x • Ulaire Attea, Revived:
Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 12, Vitality 3.
Fierce. Skirmish: Discard an Orc from hand to make a [Wraith] minion strength +1 (or +2 at a forest) until the regroup phase.
1x • Ulaire Enquea, Revived:
Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4.
Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to make each [Wraith] minion strength +1 until the regroup phase.
1x • Ulaire Cantea, Revived:
Cost (5). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 10, Vitality 3.
Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Cantea to make each [Wraith] minion strength +1 until the regroup phase.
1x • Ulaire Nertea, Revived:
Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 2.
Fierce. Shadow: Exert Ulaire Nertea and return an Orc to your hand to play a [Wraith] minion from your draw deck or discard pile; its twilight cost is -4.
1x • Ulaire Ostea, Revived:
Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3.
Fierce. Shadow: Exert Ulaire Ostea and return an Orc to your hand to add [1] for each [Wraith] and [Sauron] minion you spot.
Sauron
Jail will be in White Council Pack.
4x • Sauron, The Necromancer :
Cost (5). [Sauron] Minion. Maïa. Site 5. Strength 15, Vitality 4.
Sauron may not be assigned to a skirmish. Orcs are fierce. Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign an Orc or a [Wraith] minion to a companion (except Bilbo). The Free Peoples player may add a doubt or exert that companion to prevent this.
2x • Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings:
Cost (0). [Sauron] Artifact • Ring. Vitality +1.
Bearer must be Sauron. He is fierce. When you play this artifact, you may discard a [Gandalf] artifact. Maneuver: Make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply until the regroup phase.
4x Danger Wrapped in Shadows:
Cost (2). [Sauron] Condition • Support area.
At the start of your Shadow phase, you may remove [2] to take into hand a [Sauron] minion from your discard pile. Skirmish: Exert Sauron to make another minion (except Smaug) strength +2 (limit +4).
Azog's Army
No more Swarming Goblin.
3x • The Wolves Army :
Cost (6). [Moria] minion. Orc. Site 4. Strength 10, Vitality 4.
Fierce. When you play this minion, you may play a [Moria] condition from your draw deck or discard pile.
4x Assaulting Goblin :
Cost (2). [Moria] Minion. Orc. Site 4. Strength 7, Vitality 2.
Skirmish: Exert this minion to make another Orc strength +2 (or +3 if at a battleground).
3x • Dark Bats :
Cost (1). [Moria] Condition • Support area.
To play, exert a [Moria] Orc. While at a battleground, the twilight cost of your [Moria] minions is -1. Regroup: Discard this condition to return all [Moria] minions from play to your hand.
White Council Pack
Stealth Sorcery -> Jail.
2x Jail:
Cost (1). [Sauron] Condition • Support area.
If a Wise ally wins a skirmish, discard this condition. Response: If a Wise character is exhausted at the start of the regroup phase, remove [2] to stack him or her on this condition.
Thrain Pack
2x Secret Door:
Cost (7). Mountain. While you can spot a unique [Dwarven] possession, the Shadow number of Secret Door is -2.
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Frankly, I can't add much to those changes. I agree totally with most, and partially with only a few.
Sauron:
"Jail will be in White Council Pack": Given the scarcity of cards for Sauron, this is a very wise change as it redirects those slots for cards that need more room. :up:
- Sauron, The Necromancer: 4 copies now, that's a great improvement. I like that now makes only Orcs fierce (excluding Demolition Troll and Gollum). And now assigns only Nazgul and Orcs to a companion, which is much more consistent with the lore; self-assigning Sauron was too powerful. The new option of adding doubts may be used by both sides: by the FP player to protect key companions, and by the Shadow player to exploit that need of protection and pile up doubts. :up: to all!
- Ring of Thrór, Last of the Seven Rings: Discarding [Dwarven] artifacts didn't make too much sense (if you are able to play the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór, means that you can't spot the [Dwarven] one so there was no use to depict that part of the story), and was a bit too powerful to discard Orcrist or The Arkenstone (and that's Smaug's task anyway). :up:
- Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Seems good too. :up: But what if it takes into hand any [Sauron] card? That way you'd be able to recover other copies of Danger Wrapped in Shadows or Jail, and with 2 on the board you might play a fighting Sauron for [9] on each site. [9] is a lot of twilight for a fierce, strength 15 minion with no damage bonus, no self-pumping and no self-assignment, and in absense of good twilight to play other strong minions (to assign and pump them) he'll be trying only to prevent double moves, or to kill companions if all are exhausted or if there isn't anyone with strength 8 or more to not be overwhelmed (Bofur can prevent both things easily).
White Council Pack:
"Stealth Sorcery -> Jail": Additional Wise characters and a Jail to counter Wise characters only, all in the same Pack. :up:
- Jail: I like your new version, it now aims Wise characters instead of the Company, and will force Sauron to keep assigning Gandalf to strong minions. But there are 2 details that call my attention:
1. The "Response" part seems good, but I'd make it an "at the start of the regroup phase" action for better wording: "At the start of the regroup phase, you may remove [2] to stack an exhausted Wise character on this condition". And is a bit shorter. That way it allows to stack only 1 Wise character per regroup phase (per copy in play), which reduces the power in case Galadriel and/or Saruman get exhausted with mere self-exertions.
2. Is it meant to allow more than 1 Wise character to be stacked there? The previous version was limited to only 1. If you use my suggestion above, to stack only 1 Wise guy per site would limit the possibilities of being too powerful, if in a single Jail there's room for more than 1 prisoner.
Thrain Pack:
- Secret Door: Seems a good change, it's now like Hornburg Causeway with Aragorn. You can make the Shadow number 8, and the reduction -3 instead of -2, to punish even more a player who doesn't have in play (or deck) Thrór's Map/Key, the Oakenshield or the Great Barricade.
There will be more unique [Dwarven] possessions if there are more Extensions in the future: weapons, armors, mounts, fortifications... If you want to reserve the privilege of this twilight reduction to only Thrór's Map/Key, you can try this: "While you can spot a unique [Dwarven] possession with no class, the Shadow number of Secret Door is -2." That excludes shields (Oakenshield), weapons, armors, helms, boar mounts, the Horn of Erebor, fortifications (as they are "support area" possessions), bracers...
Azog's Army:
"No more Swarming Goblin": With cards like Dark Bats and Azog, Commander reducing substantially the cost of each minion, doesn't seem necessary to add twilight when playing a minion a la Goblin Runner. Like Site Control Uruks: they don't add twilight per controlled site but instead reduce their own cost, and work marvellously. :up:
- The Wolves Army & Assaulting Goblin: 1 more copy makes them much more viable. Assaulting Goblin will be the main force in the deck, with several copies in play and some Vicious Wargs they will cause great trouble. :up:
- Dark Bats: +1 copy will be very beneficial. I don't know what to say about the change in the regroup skill, doesn't seem to change too much the effect. Apparently is more powerful for a single moment but less powerful if played from the start of the game. That makes sense anyway with the lore: they bats were used to darken the sky only at a determined time. This new version will make a nice combo with The Wolves Army, moreover if there's 1 more copy of each. :up:
More to come.
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Thank you for your useful comments.
After some minor tests, I change a bit the Azog's Army and the Bolg's Army. See here
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates.html
And also the Secret Door and Jail, it will be much more simple like that. Danger Wrapped in Shadows searchs a [Sauron] card.
And Crawling Evil, Enchanted River, Terrifying Legend and Bolg, Servant of Sauron.
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You're welcome my fellow! :)
- Jail: :up:
- Secret Door: :up:
- Danger Wrapped in Shadows: :up:
Azog's Army:
- The Wolves Army: "When you play this minion, you may play a [Moria] card from your draw deck or discard pile." Like Host of Moria, but also from draw deck. Cool! 8-) This new skill will allow the now unique Dark Bats to always stay on the board, from the very beginning. :up:
- Dark Bats: "Maneuver: Spot a [Moria] minion and discard 3 cards from hand to add [8]". Seems a very nice skill, besides now is unique and stays on the board :up:. But at sites 4 or 5 will be overpowered, [8] allows for easy swarms if the Company hasn't yet set up and Azog's forces are no longer roaming (and also cost -1 at a battleground). So I'd change it to add twilight according to the current site number: "Maneuver: Spot a [Moria] minion at site X and discard 3 cards from hand to add [X]". At site 8 would be equal, at site 9 would be slightly better.
Esgaroth Pack:
- Terrifying Legend: I like this change. Both versions have the built-in drawback of allowing Dale men to fight/shoot, but the previous version had a built-in skill to discard it and thus get rid of the drawback (the same problem of Stealth Sorcery). As a general rule, conditions/items with a built-in drawback shouldn't be self-discardable (He Is Summoning His Servants is a good example to follow). :up:
There is a misspelling in "overwelming" (the "h" is missing). Your new version is very powerful, I'd limit it a bit. I'd change the "wound a [Dwarven] companion" part to "exert 2 companions": flying from Erebor to kill men at Esgaroth and then returning to Erebor just to hurt a Dwarf doesn't seem lore-consistent, while exerting 2 companions at your choice can reflect Smaug's ruthless idea of hurting Bilbo by killing those innocents who helped him. I'd also change the "if you spot Smaug" part to "if Smaug himself overwhelmed that character":
[1] Terrifying Legend [No culture]
Condition • Support area
If you can spot Smaug, Man allies may participate in archery fire and skirmishes.
Each time a Free Peoples character is overwhelmed, you may discard a Free Peoples possession or a Man ally (and exert 2 companions if Smaug overwhelmed that character).
Wizard Pack:
- "Crawling Evil -> Enchanted River": Seems a wise idea to merge both into one, and clear a Shadow card slot in the Mirkwood Pack for Old Bitterness. The Wizard Pack must depict Gandalf and his friends, mostly Radagast, and as such the Shadow side must choose between Wargs, Nazgul, Sauron and Spiders. Though I'd rather have something else for Spiders (a big minion perhaps, as Radagast doesn't face the Enchanted River), this change still helps the Spiders while clearing a slot in the Mirkwood Pack. :up:
If you change your mind and want to add a Spider minion instead, this one might fit the needs:
[3] •Spawns of Ungoliant [Spider]
Minion • Spider
Strength 10 Vitality 3 Site 5
Fierce.
During a fierce skirmish involving this minion, it is strength +3 and damage +1.
Shadow: At a forest site, play this minion from your discard pile.
"'But worse are the webs... Spiders, Gandalf. Giant ones... I followed their trail. They came from Dol Guldur.'"
A self-replayable, splashable minion. Can soak arrows and help both a Swarm or a Beatdown shadow given the high strength and low cost. And can distract Thorin by forcing him to kill it before there's a fierce skirmish. The fierce skirmish bonus is the same as Uruk Plains Runner or Uruk Foot Soldier, but with much higher attributes.
Mirkwood Pack:
- Bolg, Servant of Sauron: Clever change. What can I add here? :up:
- Old Bitterness: I like this event a lot; I'll post an event for Smaug with a similar idea. But it's undeniably overpowered to block a Dwarf defender at the later sites (Dwalin is key against swarm, Thorin is key against Smaug and other strong minions), besides not being lore-consistent as the Elvenking rules only until site 5. At sites 6 and higher shouldn't block a defender, but instead do something softer like exert both the Mirkwood Elf and the Dwarf companion you spot. With that power reduction, reduce the cost to [2].
[2] Old Bitterness [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 and a [Dwarven] companion. At sites 1 to 5, make that companion cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase. At any other site, exert both characters.
"I will keep you all in prison until you have learned sense and manners!"
Your lore text was very well chosen... :up:
Bolg's Army:
- Hidden Attack: Extremely powerful. [-X :evil: [-X Play this at maneuver to exhaust Thorin, then kill him at archery phase with Bolg, Captain and merely 3 doubts. :cop: :evil: :cop: I'd change it to regroup phase, and also change Bolg's archery skill to either wound an unwounded companion, or merely exert any Dwarf companion.
I still owe you the revision of the Nazgul cards.
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Nazguls:
- Ulaire Attea: The effect is softer, which is good, and the cost is now both unpredictable (the Orc isn't in play to be spotted) and uncounterable (the Orc can't be killed). Clever balance! I like the new synergy with the new Enquea/Cantea and the "Orc-returning" Nazguls. :up: The extra bonus might be "(or +2 at a forest or battleground)", considering that Dol Guldur was an "abandoned fortress".
- Ulaire Enquea & Ulaire Cantea: I think it's good to change them from grinding engines to strength enhancers for the whole group, that way the Nine retake their main role of fierce skirmishers. However, both have the exact same text (and thus both need another [Wraith] card returning an Orc in order to trigger). I'd rather have Cantea (the lesser in vitality) change his skill from passive to active: "Shadow: Exert Ulaire Cantea and return an Orc to your hand to make each [Wraith] minion strength +1 until the regroup phase". That way, by himself he'll be able to return up to 2 Orcs and reap the benefits immediatly, and if Enquea is present you'll double that effect.
- Ulaire Nertea: Makes sense to play [Wraith] minions in Shadow phase; the Orc just returned to hand can also be discarded to play another Nazgul with He Is Summoning His Servants. I miss a bit the replaying skill at skirmish, merely due to returning a Nazgul just defeated back to the fight, but that isn't so important and the new version is much more useful. :up:
Regarding the idea of returning to play a Nazgul just killed, there's another way to achieve that. I made this card, based on Plundered Armories:
[2] Not So Easily Restrained [Wraith]
Condition • Support Area
Response: If your [Wraith] card is discarded, remove [2] or discard 2 Shadow cards from your hand to play it from your discard pile; it's twilight cost is -3.
"'There is something at work beyond the evil of Smaug. Something far more powerful. We can remain blind to it, but it will not be ignoring us, that I can promise you.'"
I know this one can't be included in this Nazgul Pack, but wanted to post it anyway, for future Extensions. It's made to protect your [Wraith] conditions (including itself), preserve your [Wraith] weapons (in the film, when a Nazgul was defeated often another one took his weapon), and return your recently killed [Wraith] minions to action. The 2 options provided allow to pay again the twilight cost of the Nazgul (-1), or to pay with cards from hand if the twilight is scarce.
- Ulaire Ostea: This change seems wise. If Nazgul play mostly from discard pile, they won't need to draw too much cards (and Hatred Rekindled does the cycling). And given their high cost (and the additional cost of having to play Orcs), to have more twilight will be much more useful. Great! :up:
Now I owe you solely the new "Smaug vs Thorin & Company" Thematic Pack.
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We will make a playtest thursday evening. So I already print all the new cards, I will consider your ideas for the next updates ;).
Azog's Army:
- Dark Bats: There is a similar condition in LOTR TCG : Oath Sworn, Dark Bats is far better and only Azog can replay minions from the discard pile, no way to stack [Moria] minions.... Azog is also the main target of wounding events, Kili...
Esgaroth Pack:
- Terrifying Legend: Ok thank you for the correction. We will first test with this version, but the Smaug add-on must be strong against the assignment of the [Dale] allies.
Wizard Pack:
- "Crawling Evil -> Enchanted River": I prefer a card which could be useful for different Shadows and a bit better for one. A strong Spider will only help the Spider Shadow :(.
Mirkwood Pack:
- Old Bitterness: The cost of this event is the cost of a middle minion, and [Elven] allies can now easily participate to skirmishes, replacing a [Dwarven] companion. But I agree that a strong [Dwarven] companion (Dwalin or Thorin) could be too powerful in region 3. I will probably change it for :
"Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 to exert a [Dwarven] companion. At sites 1 to 5, that companion cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase."
Bolg's Army:
- Hidden Attack: We will first test it, but you're right we will probably change it. There is a similar event in LOTR TCG : Last Gasp. This event must be also useful for other Shadows (like Gollum, Wargs, or Azog's Army...).
Nazguls:
- Ulaire Attea: Ok I will see for the battleground idea, but I prefer that Shadows focus only on one site keyword.
- Ulaire Enquea & Ulaire Cantea: I prefer a passive effect for the returning Orcs for at least 2 Nazguls, it's not a problem if it's the same effect. We could change it after some tests.
Not So Easily Restrained: This condition could be good, but not for now.
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We will make a playtest thursday evening. So I already print all the new cards, I will consider your ideas for the next updates ;).
Cheers! Have a nice playtesting time!
Not So Easily Restrained: This condition could be good, but not for now.
Great! :up: :)
- Dark Bats: There is a similar condition in LOTR TCG : Oath Sworn, Dark Bats is far better and only Azog can replay minions from the discard pile, no way to stack [Moria] minions.... Azog is also the main target of wounding events, Kili...
Hmmm, that's right, but a flooded pool isn't only useful to play minions with Azog, it discourages the FP player to double move. And Oath Sworn costs [3] more, doesn't reduce the cost of cards and requires as trigger to ditch the whole hand (you can even use Dark Bats to merely cycle).
If the twilight addition was in accordance to the site number, there'd be a stronger lore flavour (the Bats were used at the very end), the addition would be the same at 8 and a bit better at 9, and that power reduction at lower sites would balance the huge impact this great card will have when in play. This card can be pulled from draw deck (and replayed if discarded) with The Wolves Army, so there are big chances to have it from the very start until the very end.
Oath Sworn is a mighty post-Movie Block trick. When Shadows came, the balance of cards was severely impaired, and anyway there were big tricks on both sides. I think the Company should have a proper time to assemble, before flooding the pool with [8] by merely discarding 3 cards. Don't missunderstand me: I love the new Dark Bats concept. But just want to balance it with the current strength of FP characters and tricks. Playtesting will tell...
I agree that Azog is the main target of directed wounding, but Kili and Dawn Take You All work after maneuver phase, so only Battle of Azanulbizar and Burning Fir Cones must worry him.
- Terrifying Legend: Ok thank you for the correction. We will first test with this version, but the Smaug add-on must be strong against the assignment of the [Dale] allies.
What about this? "Each time... is overwhelmed, you may discard a Free Peoples possession or a Man ally (and exhaust a companion if Smaug overwhelmed that character)". Powerful. When the Company saw the burning ruins of Esgaroth, not only Bilbo but everyone except Thorin went overcome by guilt and pain. Perhaps "(and exhaust a companion, except Thorin, if Smaug overwhelmed that character)" to reflect that cold-heartedness of Thorin.
Or "(and spot X doubts to exert X companions if Smaug overwhelmed that character)". I'm just spitting out ideas ;).
- "Crawling Evil -> Enchanted River": I prefer a card which could be useful for different Shadows and a bit better for one. A strong Spider will only help the Spider Shadow :(.
Spawns of Ungoliant can help almost any Shadow strategy: you can play from discard at forest sites, and Watchful Orc turns sites into forests for the purpose. These cheap Spiders can be useful to take FP arrows, to pull another minion for a Swarm and to exhaust or distract strong fighters. Only corruption doesn't get a direct benefit. The key card line is the "Shadow: Play from discard" ability.
- Old Bitterness: The cost of this event is the cost of a middle minion, and [Elven] allies can now easily participate to skirmishes, replacing a [Dwarven] companion. But I agree that a strong [Dwarven] companion (Dwalin or Thorin) could be too powerful in region 3. I will probably change it for :
"Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 to exert a [Dwarven] companion. At sites 1 to 5, that companion cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase."
I thought of something similar. But there's a small problem: if a Dwarf can't be exerted, he can't be jailed with that wording. And an exhausted person should be much easier to put into a jail ;), so I'd change it to this:
"Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 to spot a [Dwarven] companion. Exert that companion. At sites 1 to 5, that companion cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase."
The exact same effect, but you can now choose an exhausted Dwarf. 5 card lines.
- Hidden Attack: We will first test it, but you're right we will probably change it. There is a similar event in LOTR TCG : Last Gasp. This event must be also useful for other Shadows (like Gollum, Wargs, or Azog's Army...).
I think that's not enterely true. Hidden Attack is NOT a splashable, standalone add-on card, it's part of a specific Shadow subculture (Bolg's Army), so doesn't need to be useful for Gollum/Wargs/Trolls, Goblins/Spiders, nor Smaug/Nazgul/Sauron. Just needs to be useful for Bolg's Army, and perhaps for Azog's Army and/or the Main Deck minions.
The main problem with this card is the combo with Bolg: you exhaust a Dwarf at maneuver, then you kill the Dwarf at archery. So if you change Bolg, that OP combo won't happen. But still worries me a lot the idea of exhausting any companion (Gandalf, Bilbo, Fili, Thorin) with a single event, and that's BEFORE shooting and fighting.
- Ulaire Attea: Ok I will see for the battleground idea, but I prefer that Shadows focus only on one site keyword.
:up:
- Ulaire Enquea & Ulaire Cantea: I prefer a passive effect for the returning Orcs for at least 2 Nazguls, it's not a problem if it's the same effect. We could change it after some tests.
That's right. But a small differentiation won't hurt anyone. Something like "Each time an Orc..., exert Ulaire Cantea to make each [Wraith] minion strength +1... and draw a card", for Cantea (he has less vitality). Or "and add [1]". Nothing relevant, just a bit different to remove that copy-paste feeling.
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Ok I just change Hidden Attack for a regroup event and a cost 2, a new Old Bitterness, Cantea for your version and Terrifying Legend with one of your version ;).
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
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- Hidden Attack: 2 twilight and at regroup seems fine. :up: Just noted, you can kill Bilbo with this event and Gollum Bound to the Ring, if Bilbo bears The One Ring: play Hidden Attack to exhaust Bilbo, then discard The One Ring with Gollum for -1 vitality. If Elrond can't heal him he'll be dead.
But seems a good combo to me, expensive, improbable to have in your deck, and much less probable to have in hand with those circumstances (Elrond is absent/exhausted, 3 twilight, 3 surviving Orcs, that specific Gollum with 3 or more vitality).
- Terrifying Legend: :up:
- Ulaire Cantea: :up:
- Old Bitterness: This version seems balanced: still costs [3], and though works in higher sites than 5 the FP player chooses who won't fight. That means, if the Shadow player drafted the 2 copies, and has those 2 copies in hand (if if has up to 4x in a Constructed format), the FP player can choose the same Dwarf companion for each copy of Old Bitterness played.
Albeit those 2 points are balanced (it blocks a Dwarf AFTER site 5, vs the FP player can choose the same Dwarf twice or more), which is good for gameplay, those aren't consistent with lore so that worries me a bit: Thranduil shouldn't put a Dwarf in prison outside of his Woodland Realm, and Thranduil jailed not only 1 but each Dwarf of the Company. It'd worry me much more if those were unbalances in card power.
All in all, I like more your previous version (exert a Dwarf comp, and at sites 1 to 5, block him). I'd reduce its cost to [2] only (considering you'll only direct an exertion to a Dwarf at site 6 or higher), and allow to choose any Dwarf, exhausted or not:
[2] Old Bitterness [Elven]
Event • Maneuver
Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 to spot a [Dwarven] companion. Exert that companion. At sites 1 to 5, that companion cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase.
If you change "[Dwarven] companion" for "Dwarf companion", and subsequently "companion" for "Dwarf", there'll be a bit of room for a small addition. Things like "you may draw 2 cards" (reflecting the delay this ancient grudge causes to the Company) or "at any other site, add [4]" (the dissension between Dwarves, Elves and Men at the Siege of Erebor only feeds their enemies purpose). If any of those changes are introduced, makes more sense to make it a Shadow phase event, to take more advantage of twilight or card drawing:
#1
[2] Old Bitterness [Elven]
Event • Shadow
Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 to spot a Dwarf companion. Exert that Dwarf and you may draw 2 cards. At sites 1 to 5, that Dwarf cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase.
#2
[2] Old Bitterness [Elven]
Event • Shadow
Spot an [Elven] ally whose home is site 5 to spot a Dwarf companion. Exert that Dwarf. At sites 1 to 5, that Dwarf cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the regroup phase. At any other site, add [4].
Anyway your current version is at least balanced.
Just some thoughts. Hope they can help you ;).
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- Secret Door: I love the current version. But found a way to improve it a bit more, in respect of lore. If you can spot Thrór's Key it should be also an underground site, because immediatly after using the Key they moved inside (under) the mountain.
Secret Door
Site 7 Cost (8).
Mountain. While you can spot the Thror's Key, Secret Door is an underground and its Shadow number is -3.
That would only affect Goblin Sneak and Gollum, Small Slimy Creature. By now. As I said before, with each Extension those site keywords will get much more important.
That's all.
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Ok, after some tests, we will probably have these next changes.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates.html
I will keep Secret Door with its simpler text ;).
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- Bilbo, Master in Riddles: :up: A limit seems wise. When Decipher forgot about adding them to new cards (Eomer TMoR, Forearmed, Cirdan, Eowyn LoI, Arwen QoEaM, Aegnor...) the game lost a lot of good playing experience.
Sauron
- Sauron, The Necromancer: Seems that only 1 doubt to prevent assignments was not enough. I believe it's because the [Sauron] and [Wraith] cultures don't have any way to take advantage of doubts (by spotting or removing), so piling up doubts is not useful unless Bilbo risks fleeing (corruption). Seems ok to increase the doubt toll to 2, but if you want an alternative you might add bonuses to [Sauron] and [Wraith] cards by spotting or removing doubts. Time ago, you said you wanted each Shadow culture to have a way to use doubts.
For instance, Danger Wrapped in Shadows might "exert Sauron or remove a doubt" to make a minion strength +2. That can represent the impossibility to escape the battle (as Bilbo said, "When faced with death, what can anyone do?"), or the understanding by The White Council of the need to attack Dol Guldur. In both cases, doubts and confusion in the FP characters are reduced, while the danger in the battlefield increases. With such kind of changes, the prevention of Sauron's skill can be only 1 doubt.
- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: I didn't notice before, but the template you used with this card is a normal [Sauron] card template, but this card is an artifact. It'd be nice if you change it to the [Sauron] artifact template, like Ithil Stone or Sceptre of the Dark Lord.
Nazguls
- Dol Guldur Blade: The idea of playing a condition from draw deck is a very good improvement. :up: But the strength +3 might be too much, considering the notorious rise in the pump skills of Attea, Toldea and Enquea. Try to keep that in mind in the next playtesting.
Smaug
- Smaug's Awakening: :up:
Bolg's Army
- Hidden Attack: [1] is too low. Compare it to Fires and Foul Fumes, which is more powerful but costs [4] and 4 Orcs. In case a player has 2 copies in hand, [1] will be too easy to repeat. That will happen often in a constructed format (when this Hobbit Draft Game gets through to Gemp ;)), so [2] will be more balanced. Or "exert 2 Orcs" instead of "wound 2 Orcs". Or both, this card is really powerful.
Azog's Army
- Demolition Troll: Clever. To protect Azog, and a minimum of Goblins to pull the swarm :up:. But I fear that Dark Bats will make too easy to remove that [1], so [2] will be more balanced (more selective).
Mirkwood Pack
- Forest River: :up:
- Old Bitterness: I think this card should have some correlation with the effect of [Shire] Barrels (I know those are different packs). I mean, Thranduil retained the Company and then Bilbo responded with that escape towards Esgaroth. So if Barrels can make the move limit +1, Old Bitterness might make the move limit -1 by spotting a Mirkwood Elf. Given the huge power of that, the FP player might prevent that by paying a cost. There isn't yet a single Shadow card that reduces the move limit, and that's a powerful and important part of the game.
[3] Old Bitterness [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Exert an Orc to exert a [Dwarven] companion. You can spot an [Elven] ally whose home site is 5 to make the move limit -1 this turn; the Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions to prevent that.
I believe it works well to depict the 2 moments when Thranduil and Thorin are confronted: when imprisoned at Mirkwood (site 5), and later at the Siege of Erebor (site 8). So there's no need of restraining this to sites 1 to 5.
Wizard Pack
- 3x Savage Warg -> 3x Hunting Pack: Seems a wise change here. Hunting Pack was overpowered in my opinion, and Savage Warg fits better with the Radagast theme. :up:
Dain Pack
- Orc Banner: I like the idea. Allies have more importance here than in LOTR TCG. :up:
Thorin Pack
- Dwarven Song: Awesome change here! :up: Anyway it's useful mostly at the start of the game (like the original version of Eagles Are Coming) as this card doesn't allow, and there is not yet any other card that allows to recover [Dwarven] possessions once they are discarded. Thorin recycles only [Dwarven] artifacts while Balin only events. So I'd add something like this: "...from your draw deck (or from your discard pile if you exert a [Dwarven] companion)." 5 lines with that addition.
Another option is to add this: "...to play X [Dwarven] possessions from your draw deck and shuffle X [Dwarven] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck." 5 lines too. The Quest of Erebor was meant to recover long-lost rights and heirlooms, so seems right to me that the Dwarven Song which incites them to recover Erebor can also bring discarded things back again.
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I'm sorry for this long absense. These last weeks have been very chaotic :(. But I'm much better, so here are some revisions.
- Were-worms: I like this change a lot :up:. Discarding Shadow cards can be very limiting and you need also to remove twilight. To take any [Moria] card instead of only minions, and to be able to pull them also from draw deck makes this card worth of its cost. Besides, along with The Wolves Army it will allow you to assemble much more quickly, and that's always a good thing.
- The Shadow Arkenstone: There are 3 problems with the current version, and I found a solution to them. 1) Esgaroth and Mirkwood made a coalition so they shouldn't impair each other when Bard or Thranduil is holding The Arkenstone (it should be Bilbo, or Dwarves, or Men+Elves). 2) I suggested you to add Thranduil as an eligible bearer to prevent Woodland Elves from being destroyed by The Arkenstone's text, but that was a mistake because Thranduil never had his foul clutches over the King's Jewel (and instead he wanted the Emeralds of Girion). 3) The length of the 3rd paragraph (the skill to transfer) got increased from 3 to 4 lines when you included Thranduil, and that removed the beauty and the lore text from the card.
To solve those problems, Thranduil must be removed from the 3rd paragraph, and Bard should add an exception to [Elven] characters if he's the bearer. That way both Lake-men and Woodland Elves will depend on Bard holdig The Arkenstone, and if the Shadow player kills Bard before playing The Arkenstone (or before being transferred to Bard), both cultures of the coalition will suffer a strong disadvantage.
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Plays on Bilbo.
At sites 7 to 9, each non-Wise companion
or ally is strength -2 (except of bearer's
culture, and [Elven] if bearer is Bard).
Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability:
"Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer
the Arkenstone to this character."
I reduced "While at site 7 or higher" to "At sites 6 to 9", otherwise the 2nd paragraph would have used 1 more line. That frees a line for lore text. Quotes like "'Watch it corrupt his heart and drive him mad...'" (movie) or "'For the Arkenstone... to me it is beyond price.'" (book) should use only 1 line.
Arkenstone: ...and I avoid any effect before site 7 (strength, vitality or resistance).
I still think The Arkenstone should give something good to its bearer. That'd make more worthy the transference (which costs 2 doubts). Agree that strength isn't a good option (that protects Bilbo from being overwhelmed). Perhaps vitality +1. Or damage +1, that can be added immediatly after "Plays on Bilbo". Or even both. None of those 2 additions would be too important, because killing Bilbo by wounds isn't as easy as corrupting or overwhelming him. And the "divide and rule" text of the Shadow Arkenstone is meant to exacerbate those 2 goals.
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Vitality +1
Plays on Bilbo. Bearer is damage +1.
At sites 7 to 9, each non-Wise companion
or ally is strength -2 (except of bearer's
culture, and [Elven] if bearer is Bard).
Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability:
"Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer
the Arkenstone to this character."
I firmly believe the vitality bonus is a good idea, even for the Shadow player: the only way of discarding The Shadow Arkenstone is to send its bearer (NOT Bilbo) to death. So you must add 2 doubts to transfer it to Bard or Thorin, and kill that guy. "Vitality 3" Bard is easy to kill, and having 4 vitality points makes him, along with the enmity factor of the Arkenstone, much more endurable.
On the other hand, IMO the damage bonus would portray very well bearer's anger when defending it. And both can be added without interferring with the "divide and rule" goal, nor with the text structure of the card.
Still owe you the Nazgul and the new "Smaug vs Thorin & Co" thematic pack. The cards of that pack were finished some 3 or 4 weeks ago, but didn't have the time to redact the explanation of each. Those will be soon.
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- Vicious Warg: This mount costs [3] which is too much for its twilight cost. +2 strength, +1 vitality is the same bonus as Warg in the "Beatdown Pack 1", which costs [2] only. So I'd reduce the Vicious Warg's cost to [2].
- Demolition Troll: Nothing to say about the game text. I just don't like the lore text, this would be much better in my opinion: "'Send in the War Beasts!'"
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- Orc Banner: Nothing to say about its text :up:. But have a little question. What kind of banner is this one? Is it a normal banner in the field carried by a Goblin soldier, like Banner of the Eye or Banner of Isengard? Or is it the (let's call it) "Banner of Command", used by Azog in Ravenhill to give precise orders to his Army?
Because I've been working on a "Banner of Command" to, well, command keen orders to your Orcs in the battlefield. If you like it might be added somehow to Azog's Pack, or to other Supplementary Pack...
[1] •Banner of Command [Moria]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelandofshadow.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F12%2FBattle2b-200x200.jpg&hash=6a3fe9e21c75e0a5090a8e621e263485a8289854)
Condition • Support Area
Assignment: Remove [2] to heal an Orc.
Assignment: At a battleground, exert Azog or Bolg to make until the regroup phase an Orc strength +1, fierce or skirmishes involving that Orc must be resolved after any others.
"'They cannot fight in two fronts... Attack the city!'"
This card is made to work in powerful combos with Dark Bats and Assaulting Goblin. Dark Bats can provide lots of twilight to use at assignment. The 1st skill allows to heal any Orc that will need vitality to exert later. That can have a devastating effect with 2x or 3x Assaulting Goblins. The 2nd skill exerts Azog or Bolg to make an Orc strength +1, fierce or "Lurker". And the 1st skill can heal that exertion, thus the twilight pool will fuel the machine!
The "Lurker effect" is meant to intelligently direct which part of the Army stays behind, and by default which one goes at the front line; a smart player will make at least 1x Assaulting Goblin "lurker" to pump other Orcs before being wounded. The strength +1 is there to strengthen any weak spot of your strategy, or to pile up a large bonus on a single Orc. The benefits of making an Orc fierce are obvious, but is interesting to note that a fierce Orc surviving the first skirmish means a whole new Assignment phase, in which you can heal your Assaulting Goblins for another use with that fierce Orc...
Another effect of including this card is to give new importance to maintaining Azog alive on the board. The current version of Azog Commander only plays minions, and after that is totally expendable. This card makes Azog important alive, and therefore gives sense to Thorin trying to kill him to "cut off the head of the snake".
So, what do you think? Do you like it? And if so, which card in which Swarm/Supplementary Pack should be removed to add it?
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As I promised looong time ago, here it is:
"Reclaiming Erebor" Thematic Pack:
- Shadow side: Smaug. Flames & Mind Games.
The mechanics of the Shadow cards are meant to work in two different ways. The first 5 cards, which I call "Flames", are tricks to depict Smaug as an unbeatable force to face, and to straightly destroy companions, allies and followers. But he does that with cunning ways and elegant stretegies, instead of by simple brute strength.
The other 3 cards work very differently. Those I call "Mind Games", and are meant to protray Smaug's talk with Bilbo. That is, to add twilight and doubts, exert Bilbo, reveal his plans (his hand) and block him from doing anything. With cruelty!
1. "Flames":
Fire Breath
Clawing For Breath
I Will Show You Revenge!
The Dragon and The One
No Blade Can Pierce Me
2. "Mind Games":
Only A Means To An End
Nice Manners for a Thief
Far More Precious!
"Flames":
[2] Fire Breath [No Culture]
Event • Skirmish
Exert Smaug to make him strength +3 and either discard a follower or make Smaug damage +1. The Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions to prevent that.
You may exert Smaug or remove a doubt to play this event from your discard pile.
"You will burn!"
A pump for Smaug, but not mere brute strength as it allows you to direct the flame towards the defender (damage +1) or the supporting characters (discard a follower). May be played from discard pile, thus won't clog your hand and also can be repeated if necessary.
Being so powerful, provides the FP player a way to prevent it (the Company exerts to distract Smaug). Which can can be seen as a strong impairment, althought it happens to be quite the opposite if Smaug has enough resources to keep spitting flames: you will get 2 exertion each time, and can repeat up to 4 times (unwounded Smaug, 8 twilight and 4 doubts). Tug of War!
[1] Clawing For Breath [No Culture]
Event • Assignment
Search. Stealth.
Assign Smaug to a Dwarf. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt and make that Dwarf cannot be assigned to skirmishes until the regroup phase to prevent that.
"'The last of our kin. They must have come here hoping beyond hope.'"
You want to get rid of a specific annoying dwarf? Use this event to either force him to fight Smaug, or to make him cower and nullify him as a defender (and add a doubt in the meanwhile).
[2] I Will Show You Revenge! [No Culture]
Event • Regroup
Exert Smaug to suspend this phase and make allies may be assigned to skirmish. The Free Peoples player must assign an ally or companion to a skirmish against Smaug. When it ends, resume the regroup phase (and add a doubt if an ally was killed).
"'You care about them, do you?!'"
A Dark Shape Sprang for Smaug, but undirected and during regroup. The FP player survives both skirmishes against the Dragon and may think "well, that's all", but you can strike him again. And again (see below :twisted:)...
[1] The Dragon and The One [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
Shadow: Reveal your hand to play Smaug from your draw deck or discard pile.
Maneuver or Regroup: Exert 2 minions or remove [3] to heal Smaug.
Skirmish or Regroup: Exert Smaug twice to play an event from your discard pile.
"'Oakenshield's quest will fail. The darkness is coming. It will spread to every corner of the land.'"
A toolbox meant to tie loose ends and provide teamwork with other minions. This pack will need a card to play Smaug from deck or discard pile, and something involving his alliance with Sauron seems to be the right way; the idea of revealing your hand to play Smaug is meant to portray his dialogue with Bilbo (in which he revealed too much information).
The other 2 abilities are to show Smaug aiding Sauron's forces, and being aided by them. That way Smaug becomes also a support character and plays pumps for other minions, or regroup tricks. The healing part may be used to boost Smaug's own regroup ability, or to relieve the cost of his other tricks (those in the Smaug Pack).
(0) No Blade Can Pierce Me [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
Bard is strength +1 and may participate in archery fire and skirmishes.
Response: If Smaug is about to take a wound (except as effect of a [Dale] card), remove [2] or discard 3 cards from hand to prevent that wound.
"'Dazzlingly marvellous! Perfect! Flawless! Staggering!?' exclaimed Bilbo aloud..."
Smaug needs his own version of [Dunland] Hides. But this won't prevent wounds from Dale cards, and will call Bard to the fight. Given that drawback, the "or discard this possession" part of Hides is replaced by "or discard 3 cards from hand" to ensure this card will remain on the board (somewhat similar to the problem with Stealth Sorcery).
"Mind Games":
[1] Only A Means to An End [No Culture]
Event • Maneuver
Riddle.
Spot Smaug to make until the regroup phase [Shire] events may not be played and special abilities of [Shire] cards may not be used. The Free Peoples player may discard 2 cards at random from hand to prevent that.
"'What did he promise you? A share of the treasure? As if it was his to give.'"
Bilbo will bring plenty of trouble to Smaug (see the [Shire] tricks below), so this event is meant to stop him before with hesitation about the Quest, or at least to confuse him a little (discarding at random). Besides, this not only blocks Bilbo from using [Shire] events but also abilities in his game text, the Burglar's Contract and even The One Ring (!).
[2] Nice Manners for a Thief [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand and exert Smaug to make the Free Peoples player exert Bilbo or add a doubt.
Each time a [Shire] event is played, you may spot Smaug to make the opponent choose to either reveal his or her hand or add [2].
"'And what about your little Dwarf friends? Where are they hiding?'"
A contest of wills between Smaug and Bilbo. Another tug of war here: you can make your move to hurt Bilbo a la Cruel Caradhras, and also if he makes his moves he'll be giving you twilight or information. The passive skill is worded like Worry (in case you are worried about the "make the opponent choose" part).
[1] Far More Precious! [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
While at site 7 or higher, each time a doubt is added you may add [1] or draw a card (or both if you spot Smaug).
Skirmish: If Bilbo wears The One Ring, exert Smaug and discard this condition to make him take off The One Ring.
"'Where are you? Come, now, don't be shy. Step into the light.'"
My !inspiration ran bit short with this one. You get some advantage when a doubt happens to be added, and if Smaug is present that advantage gets broader. And oh! what a coincidence! Smaug is good at adding doubts, so you can get twilight and cards each time you pile up another doubt. If Bilbo puts on The Ring (which requires a doubt, by the way) you can make him take it off by discarding this condition.
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Now, the Dwarven and Halfling counterpart...
"Reclaiming Erebor" Thematic Pack:
- Free Peoples side: Thorin and Company. [Dwarven] and [Shire] tricks.
The FP cards here are tricks to face the Beast with the only things the Company had: bravery and cleverness. Bilbo tries to delay and confuse Smaug, while the Dwarves try to ambush him and assure either one side or the other won't ever see the daylight again...
* [Shire] cards:
- Flattery
- Clever Manners
- Lovely Titles
- Also A Took
* [Dwarven] cards:
- Flash-flames
- Easily Outwitted
- Then We Will All Burn Together
- Long Awaited Revenge
[Shire] Shire cards:
[2] Flattery [Shire]
Event • Maneuver
Riddle. Stealth.
Exert Bilbo to make a minion with vitality X lose fierce and cannot gain fierce until the regroup phase. Its owner may assign X wounds to minions to prevent that.
"'I did not come to steal from you, O Smaug the Unassessably Wealthy. I merely wanted to gaze upon your magnificence.'"
What attribute may Bilbo use to flatter and manipulate a minion? Something which depicts correctly a minion's greatness. Strength, twilight cost, site number, keywords? All those seem too inaccurate to work well with every minion. On the other hand, vitality is much more steady and is always high with strong, egomaniac bad guys and monsters.
The Shadow player must make Smaug/Sauron/mounted Azog lose fierce, or assign 5 wounds to minions... nasty.
[1] Clever Manners [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Riddle. Stealth.
Make Bilbo strength +X and a minion in his skirmish strength -X, where X is that minion's vitality. Its owner may discard X cards at random from hand instead.
"'I was just saying your reputation precedes you, O Smaug the Tyrannical. Truly. You have no equal on this earth.'"
More manipulation here. With this trick, Bilbo turns his overwhelming into his survival, or even a defeat into a victory. The bigger the ego, the better the bonus. But as always the Shadow player can pay an alternative cost instead, which too is both disruptive and proportional to that minion's greatness.
[1] Lovely Titles [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Riddle.
Reveal X Free Peoples cards from your hand. Choose an opponent who must reveal X Shadow cards from hand or make Bilbo strength +2, heal him and remove a doubt.
"'I came from the end of a bag, but no bag went over me.?.. I am the friend of Bears and the guest of Eagles.'"
Bilbo talks to keep Smaug talking. That is, he shows some blurry information in order to buy some time, and perhaps get some information too. The riddled talk is a gamble by itself, so I wanted to portray that. Very powerful, but works basically by clogging your hand so that's a heavy downside to consider. The Thematic pack needs some doubt remotion, and [Shire] always takes care of that.
[1] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Maneuver or Skirmish
Exert Bilbo to make a companion strength +1 until the regroup phase and take into hand a [Shire] event from your discard pile.
You may exert Bilbo to play this event from your discard pile.
"'You've been sitting quietly for far too long... The world is not in your books and maps. It's out there.'"
Smaug will have The Dragon and The One to play events from discard. Bilbo will have a toolbox for himself too. This card allows him to get back from discard any [Shire] event needed for the case, for the price of adding [1] and exerting Bilbo once (if played from hand) or twice (if played from discard). So in case of big troubles you can get back Lovely Titles for potential wound and doubt remotion, Clever Manners to survive and Flattery to not face a monster twice (Skilfull Negociator and Barrels too if this Pack meets Bilbo's Pack). But given the exertions it will be worthy only in desperate moments.
The strength +1 until regroup is to show his Tookish side awaking, and to make it useful in absense of other events. His newly found bravery can help him (like in Mirkwood against the Spiders) or another guy (like Thorin in the Wooded Cliff). With a second copy in discard you can even play a loop, getting +1 strength to distribute for each exertion you're able and willing to pay.
[Dwarven] Dwarven cards:
[2] Easily Outwitted [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Stealth.
Exert any number of [Dwarven] companions who have total strength X to prevent all wounds to a Dwarf skirmishing a minion with strength X or less. You may draw a card for each Dwarf exerted this way.
"'Behind you! Worm!'"
The Dwarves split in groups and advance by distracting Smaug. A Dwarven stealth that doesn't cancel the skirmish, but instead prevents all wounds to the Dwarf (that way the Shadow player can still try to overwhelm him). The drawing part is there to give your Dwarf more time and tricks, which should also depict better the distraction by teamwork.
Inspired by The Highest Quality.
[2] Flash-flames [Dwarven]
Possession
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
You may exert a Dwarf to play this possession during the skirmish phase.
Skirmish: Discard this possession to exert a minion (or 2 minions at an underground site) and draw up to 2 cards.
"'Where's the sulfur?'"
A [Gondor] Man can carry 4 Athelas herbs in his pocket... why can't a chemistry-versed Dwarf bear 4 gunpowder bombs and wreak wounds and confusion all around? The idea of allowing this to be played at skirmish is to take advantage of the chance of drawing it during the skirmish phase, and to depict the MacGyver-esque improvisation bent on the device.
[4] Then We Will All Burn Together! [Dwarven]
Event • Assignment
Discard X cards from hand and exert X [Dwarven] companions to make them strength +X (limit +3) and damage +1 until the regroup phase. You may return a [Dwarven] follower to your hand to discard a condition.
"'I will not die like this. Cowering. Clawing for breath... Lead him to the forges. We kill the dragon.'"
"'If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together!'" Pure teamwork, somewhat similar to Lend Us Your Aid (up to strength +3 to a bunch of people) but costing MUCH more (exertions and cards from hand) to give also damage +1 and allow you to discard a condition (so No Blade Can Pierce Me won't be around to save Smaug's neck).
[3] Long Awaited Revenge [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +1 for each wound and damage bonus on each character in the skirmish. You can exert Thorin to make no player may play another skirmish event or to discard a condition.
"'This is not your Kingdom. These are Dwarf-lands. This is Dwarf-gold. And we will have our revenge!'"
Like Threw Down My Enemy, but with more fire and bitterness. And allows Thorin to discard a condition, or to corner Smaug or Azog and block any other event from being played in this skirmish (for instance, the Fire Breath replaying loop), leaving only special abilities to change the course of the struggle. It's all or nothing with these grudge-holding Dwarves...
That's all. Hope you like them. I'm waiting for your comments!
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Everything is updated here : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates.html
Sauron
- Sauron, The Necromancer: I don't know yet, your proposition is very interesting. But by removing a doubt to boost a minion, make this card too sensible to counter-draft and Sauron is already hard to pick...
I keep in mind these 2 propositions :
- Sauron with The Free Peoples player may add 2 doubts or exert that companion to prevent this.
- Sauron with The Free Peoples player may add a doubt or exert that companion to prevent this. and Danger Wrapped in Shadows with Skirmish: Exert Sauron or remove a doubt to...
- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: Just an error on the last export, the previous were artifacts ;).
Nazguls
- Dol Guldur Blade: Ok, we have to pump a bit the Nazguls, maybe it's too much now. We will see it soon.
Bolg's Army
- Hidden Attack: Ok for a [2] cost and "wound 2 Orcs".
Azog's Army
I remove the Were-Worms to put 1 more copy of Demolition Troll and Vicious Warg. 2 important cards in this Shadow.
- Vicious Warg: In the Shadow Wargs, this possession will be too strongat [2] with the Goblin Footman. It will be too much counter-drafted :(.
- Demolition Troll: The twilight pool is very important in this Shadow, don't know yet. Test will tell us. Ok for "'Send in the War Beasts!'".
Mirkwood Pack
- Old Bitterness: Done! ^^ And [Gundabad] now, avoiding the return of the event with Danger Wrapped in Shadows.
Thorin Pack
- Dwarven Song: Too long, simple cards are the best ;).
Dain Pack
- Orc Banner: I was thinking about this banner for the card. I can rename it Banner of Command.
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I change the Arkenstone for your version, I also made a new version of the Orc Banner (now Banner of Command) inspired from your version.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates.html
I will make the next image exports wednesday, so if you have any comments on cards (especially Nazguls ;)) tell me soon.
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- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: :up: Please don't forget to use the artifact template!
- Hidden Attack: :up:
- The Shadow Arkenstone: Great! :up: You even added the +1 Vitality bonus. I feel pleased! ;D
- Banner of Command: Nice change! I like the simplicity in your solution. It sows twilight by spotting allies, and the wound prevention skill can reap it =D>. It even allows you to prevent Orcrist from wounding an Orc who isn't skirmishing Thorin. :up:
I believe the more complicated version I proposed can still be added in another Extension set, under another name (like "Signaling Banner", may be a possession for Azog and Bolg, with a vitality bonus...). But your card is really cool! :)
- Old Bitterness: Nice catch with Danger Wrapped recovering this card over and over again. Anyway that loop would cost [4] + to exert and Orc, it's ok to avoid that powerful combo. :up:
- Sauron, The Necromancer: So the options are:
#1. Sauron with "The Free Peoples player may add 2 doubts or exert that companion to prevent this".
#2. Sauron with "The Free Peoples player may add a doubt or exert that companion to prevent this", and Danger Wrapped in Shadows with "Exert Sauron or remove a doubt to..."
If we compare them: #1 makes Sauron more powerful, while #2 makes Danger Wrapped in Shadows more powerful. With option #2, Danger Wrapped In Shadows will be completely splashable as won't depend exclusively on Sauron. With option #1 Danger Wrapped In Shadows will still be dependant on Sauron, thus counter-drafting Sauron will destroy the usefulness of both Sauron and Danger Wrapped in Shadows. So I think option 2 balances more the importance of both cards, and that should be good when drafting.
Now, in respect of lore consistency, Sauron wasn't trying to get the One Ring back (corrupt) but to wipe out every trace of opposition by both open war (the Battle of the 5 Armies) and by ambushing the Dwarves (which Sauron's assignment skill does pretty well here). In my opinion, a pump by removing doubts will increase the "open war" flavor. Might be a bit too powerful with Gollum, so he can be added as an exception: "Skirmish: Exert Sauron or remove a doubt to make another minion (except Smaug and Gollum) strength +2 (limit +4)."
- Dol Guldur Blade: I think +2 strength is enough to win 2 skirmishes, if "beatdown by fierce skirmishes" is the goal. But if the goal is "beatdown by overwhelming", +3 will be OK but costing [2] instead (like The Pale Blade or Black Flail). It depends on what is the goal of the [Wraith] Nazgul culture: beatdown by 2 wounds (1 per skirmish), or beatdown by overwhelming (which should cost more twilight). At least we know this will be beatdown :P.
- Vicious Warg: With "In the Shadow Wargs, this possession will be too strong at 2 with the Goblin Footman", do you mean the Warg Pack in the Beatdown pack 1? If that's the case, that pack already has 1 mount (Warg) which costs [2], gives +2 strength, +1 vitality and has a better skill for the pack. Shouldn't be a problem.
Besides making the current site a battleground, the attribute bonuses are a bit weak. I'd make it either cost [2] (1 less) or give +3 strength (1 more than the current).
- Demolition Troll: Playtest will tell us, agree. Anyway, my point was in the context of Dark Bats adding [8] at the maneuver phase, which you can make twice per turn if you have Azog in hand (or in discard pile, and Host of Thousands in hand). So twilight shouldn't be a problem.
- Dwarven Song: "Simple cards are the best." Totally agree! But this card will be useless after playing your possessions, so I'd give it an additional simple option: "...to play X [Dwarven] possessions from your draw deck or remove [X]". Or if you like better: "...or to draw X cards." Those are short and simple additions.
A thing I love about this card is the new importance it gives to Bombur. And to Bilbo's Kitchen playing Bombur at the very start. And the lore flavour of playing Bombur at Bilbo's Kitchen! =D>
I (still) owe you the revision of each Nazgul.
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- Sauron : Ok for option 2. I change it a bit.
- Dol Guldur Blade : Ok for strength +2.
- Vicious Warg : Yes, I mean the Shadow Wargs in the Beatdown pack 1. The other Wargs can be only bear by [Gundabad] Orcs. So I will let the Vicious Warg at [3], since the Goblin Footman can bear it (kind of culture cost).
- Dwarven Song : Not neccessary. It's a set up card like Saved from the Fire, Simbelymne, AWINL,.... and moreover this card could be used for Ori or Oin ;).
- Battle Ram : With your PM, I think this card is overpowered, I reduce its strength to be similar as mounts from set 13 in LOTR TCG.
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Nazguls
As a general review, I don't know what's the dynamics you want to have here: to beatdown by fierce skirmishes, or by overwhelming. If is by overwhelming, the cost of [Wraith] minions and/or tricks must be higher.
- Dol Guldur Blade: :up:
- Ulaire Enquea: I have the feeling this one will cause great problems due to his huge potential. I mean, if you return an Orc and play it for free again (with Toldea, Witch King, Attea; or Goblin Runner by itself), you can repeat this skill with ease. 3 times means +6 strength to everyone, which is too much (Witch-King with strength 20, fierce!). And Cantea shares the same trigger, so it is up to +8 to everyone! [-X
Compare it to Ulaire Nertea, Ninth of the Nine Riders (with 6 comps): only +2 strength to everyone, and disapears if he's killed. Those Nazguls are meant to beatdown by fierce skirmishes (not by overwhelming).
What if Cantea gives +1 to everyone, and Enquea gives +2 to only 1 you choose? And a limit like "(limit once per Nazgul)" to avoid a fierce Ringwraith from overwhelming too easily. That is up to +2 to everyone with Cantea, and up to +2 to 3 different guys with Enquea... the maximum a single guy will get is +4. Which seems fine to me; much better than +8 to everyone. And Toldea, Attea and Dol Guldur Blade will add even more strength to that bonus.
"Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to make each a [Wraith] minion strength +2 until the regroup phase (limit once per Nazgul)." And keep Cantea the way he currently is.
- Ulaire Nelya: I like this one. What about taking to hand a [Sauron] card? If Danger Wrapped In Shadows gets counter-drafted, you will be able to get back Sauron or the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór with this minion (or both if you wait a bit more). Diversification is a good thing against counter-drafting.
"Shadow: Exert Ulaire Nelya and return an Orc to your hand to take a [Wraith] or [Sauron] card from your draw deck or discard pile into your hand."
- "While you cannot spot an Orc, the twilight cost of your Orcs is -3." for The Witch-King, Attea & Toldea: This addition is a very creative way of reducing the cost of having multiple Nazgul on the board. But there are broad chances of abusing the skills of some Orcs (as long as your Nazguls can return them to hand):
- Goblin Footman can pull each Dol Guldur Blade from discard.
- Watchful Orc can add all possible site keywords.
- Orkish Marauder (with 4 [Dwarven] followers) can exhaust each Dwarf companion.
- Goblin Runner can add [2] too many times.
- Goblin Sneak can put each Orc in discard pile at the bottom of the deck.
- The Wolves Army can play any [Moria] card you need from deck or discard.
Besides, at the end you can discard the Orc with He Is Summoning His Servants to get another Nazgul at - [2]. So an option may be to make those Orcs lose their gametext: "While you cannot spot 2 Orcs, the twilight cost of your Orcs is -3 and you cannot use their game text." I don't like it too much, because Goblin Footman is very important to get those Dol Guldur Blades back... :(
Another option is this: "Shadow: If you cannot spot an Orc, exert a Nazgul to play an Orc at twilight cost -3." That way the loop will be optional and will have a cost. Attea, Toldea and the Witch King have abundant spare vitality as they don't have skills to exert. Goblin Footman, Runner, Sneak, The Wolves Army, Watchful Orc, Orkish Marauder... all will be playable by either an exetion or their normal twilight cost. And as a Shadow ability the cost reduction won't be accumulable by having 2 of these big Nazguls in play. I like this option much better.
- Ulaire Ostea: I don't know if adding [2] for each [Wraith] and [Sauron] minion is a good idea. I mean, with the reduction of 3 offered by the Witchie/Attea/Toldea, and the cost reduction provided by He Is Summoning His Servants, having many Nazguls at the same time won't be really hard, and this Nazgul can exert twice to get a big lot of twilight each time. I'd prefer "add [1] and draw a card" for each [Wraith] and [Sauron] minion you spot. A mechanism to draw cards can be very good to set up faster, to get more resources like Anger or Hatred Rekindled, and to use that twilight with more Orcs.
- Ulaire Nertea: This one seems fine. Can work well to get one of those 3 big Nazgul earlier and use their cost reduction line. But given all that twilight addition and cost reduction, "-6" might be a bit overkill. Playtesting will tell us.
Other cards:
- Sauron: :up: Great!
- Danger Wrapped in Shadows: :up: "an Orc or [Wraith] minion" is much better than "another minion (except Smaug and Gollum)".
- Vicious Warg: I know Goblin Footman can play the Savage Warg on himself, and it's ok to make that combo cost [6], because triggers Azog the Defiler's dreadful grinding skill. But for a 2-cards combo minion costing [6], I'd make it str 11 vit 2 fierce instead of str 10 vit 2 fierce. That is, I'd make the Savage Warg add +3 strength instead of +2.
- Dwarven Song: There are 2 strong differences I see between Dwarven Song (Draft format) and AWINL, Simbelmyne or SftF (constructed). First is the format (constructed allows you to add many copies of both the target cards and the set up tricks), and second is the possible targets.
There are few different [Dwarven] possession to pick with Dwarven Song (only 2 in Throin's Pack), while SftF, AWINL and Simbelmyne can grab a wide variety of cards. Also, you can add many copies of AWINL / Simbelmyne / SftF to increase the chances of a desired card, but in the HDG you can add at most 2 copies of Dwarven Song, which means you will have much higher chances of getting it late in HDG than in LOTR TCG.
So will be useful to add another option in case it comes late. The twilight cost [X] of the discarded follower sets the limit X of the effect. Only Bombur costs [3], while only Bofur and Thrain cost [2]. The rest (Bifur, Ori, Óin, Dori and Röac) will give you only 1 possession. Or "remove [1]" or "draw 1 card" in case you add any of my proposals. Or even "draw 1 card and remove [1]" if you add both... doesn't seem too much. And is those are very simple additions, don't make the card intricate at all.
- Battle Ram: I agree that this card was overpowered. Now seems more equilibrated. But for [2] should do a bit more. I mean, it lost 1 strength and 1 vitality bonus. Seems well, but I feel the base strength isn't enough to counter the Boxing Dwarves problem, which the previous version corrected so efficiently (and Dwarven Axe costs 1 less). I'd add a strength bonus to the skirmish skill: "Skirmish: Exert bearer to make him or her strength +2 or damage +1." Or even "strength +1 and damage +1", though I like the previous better. That way bearer will have more chances of winning skirmishes (which is what a weapon does to the "Boxing Dwarves problem"), but not without a cost.
NOTE: I'll be editing this post to add reviews to more cards, mostly Nazguls. No more additions needed.
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Ok, I just modify a lot of next changes. We will test Dwarven Song first.
The [Wraith] and [Sauron] interaction will be one of the Sauron's goal, not the [Wraith] Shadow's goal. It will be easier for the text.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates.html
Thanks!!
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- Battle Ram: Cool change! :up: Bearer gets a bit stronger, can be healed by playing followers (powerful with Thorin's active skill) and can support any Dwarf companion in troubles. Anyway, I miss a bit the damage +1 part, which isn't really necessary but would be nice for (movie) lore. I'd change it to "Exert bearer to make a [Dwarven] character strength +1 (and damage +1 if at a battleground)."
- Banner of Command: "To play, exert an Orc twice". Nice :up:. I was thinking about wound prevention in the archery phase: "Skirmish or Archery: Remove [2] at a battleground to...". You said while developing Azog's Army that Azog Commander was often killed by directed archery. With this change, having Azog with 2 vitality and [2] will save him: the FP player will be able to wound him only once before you protect him.
The selected Orc won't be able to take arrows but other minions will have to take them. Your text states "to prevent an Orc from taking wounds", that prevent the Orc from being chosen to take wounds, but doesn't prevent the wounds. Won't have the effect of Faramir Wizard's Pupil soaking all threat wounds, which states "to prevent all wounds to Faramir".
- Power Struggle: I'm waiting to see the new picture. But the sole idea of focusing on Alfrid and !The Master gives a new meaning to the words "Power Struggle", and the consequences of involving allies in a fight that isn't theirs at first stance. Gives me the feeling of "don't help them, we might lose OUR power" in that Power Struggle. =D>
- Azog's Mace: Very powerful. Azog being damage +2 and discarding possessions is bad news to Dwarves, but now there's no Goblin Reinforcements so followers will be able to support their folk. Seems equilibrated. :up: :)
- !Vicious !Warg: :up:
- Underground Lake: "I... found something in the Goblin tunnels... my courage." GREAT! Bilbo Ring-winner will be able to win the Ring (and another tool), but first he'll need to win his skirmish. I'd make it also a river, in absense of a lake keyword.
- Dol Guldur: If Gandalf gets killed before site 5, this card's text will help the Shadow player instead. Seems more equilibrated with only 3 exertions. :up:
- Forest River: Clever change here. Discarding Gandalf is an effect that lasts more than just at site 5, so I'd make this site's Shadow number 8 instead, to give better chances of doing harm while Gandalf can't fight.
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Thanks ;), I will do all these changes soon.
I will keep Banner of Command and Battle Ram as they are now. It seems simpler.
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You are welcome my fellow!
The Nazgul seem fine to me. Enquea doesn't have a limit per Nazgul, but that's not so bad since you can still use Dori to prevent overwhelming if the bonuses are focused on the same Nazgul. :up:
About Banner of Command, the only change would be to add "Archery or..." to the current text. If you want to make it even more clear, you may change "prevent an Orc from taking wounds" to "make an Orc may not take wounds".
About Battle Ram, another idea I just thought is "exert bearer to make a [Dwarven] companion strength +1 or damage +1". Merely for flavor ;).
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Ok, I made all the changes here :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
There are some new modifications. I hope you enjoy them.
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I looked at a few cards and am confused by the flavor.
Discard Smaug if not at a mountain? He spends half the time flying over a lake burning everything in his path.
Half of the Gandalf cards are [2] and the other half [4]. They only play Dwarf companions [not followers as well] and have varying levels of power. For instance, Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves can start with Thorin [who should be [4] or more] and Gloin, Kili, or Fili, for a starting fellowship of Bilbo, two 7/4 companions and a 6/3 companion. That's a lot for a shadow player to overcome.
Galadriel can, in theory, take out 16 (or 24) strength of minions, and I am sure there are card drawing mechanics as well. She and Saruman make Gandalf even more powerful.
Skillful Negotiator is misspelled.
There seem to be a lot of ways to wound and discard minions before battle.
Goblin Swarms does not need the "discard cards and wounds on that orc" clause. Stacking a card does not stack the other cards on it and automatically clears any wounds.
Just a few thoughts. Seems interesting, but probably won't stop back in as there are a lot of unloaded keywords and play mechanics that don't interest me.
-wtk
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You come with all this too late :(.
Smaug: the real Balrog can also go out from an underground site, that's not a big problem in FOTR ? Moreover, Smaug can be played at every site with Watchful Orc.
Gandalf: Not so much, all Gandalf were tested and seem pretty well equilibrated. Followers can be play with site 1 or with other events. In LOTR TCG, 2 companions at 7/4 and 1 at 6/3 can be common with for example Faramir 4R+Aragorn 11R+Denethor 10R.... :-S
Galadriel: You read it too fast ;), need an exert.
Skillful Negotiator: Ok, but not so incorrect.
Goblin Swarms: as the previous one in FOTR, it's just a precaution.
You misread it, there is only one unloaded keyword.....
The Hobbit Draft Game is very interesting to play, you will see it soon if we put it on gemp.
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I think my point with the Gandalf cards would be that you could either start with:
Just a [4] Gandalf, or a [2] Gandalf and a [2] companion, or a [2] Gandalf that lets you play two [2] companions, one of whom is a 7/4 companion. To me, it doesn't matter what the rest of the text is, that is your best Gandalf. The second best one is the other [2] one, since it allows you to also start Thorin who is a beast at [2]. Why would you even want any of the others?
On that note, Thorin has to cost [4]. Comparable companions include Durin III (who can only be [2] if you meet a stipulation), Gandalf, Leader of Men (again, stipulation), and Cirdan, the Shipwright. To that note, all four Gandalf cards should also cost [4]. Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves could just make every Dwarf companion's twilight cost -1, no matter when he is played.
As for reprinting Goblin Swarms, etc., things like Noble Intentions change culture and text, and A Wizard Is Never Late loses all flavor drawing, well, anyone [except a Dwarf]. The Master of Laketown is no wizard.
He Gives Me Courage should be a Fellowship action, as I cannot think of any Maneuver action removing burdens [nor can I speculate how that action would be a good mechanic during that phase]. Bilbo--and Sting, particularly--discarding conditions does not fit the flavor of the card. How is warning of Orcs and Goblins comparable to discarding conditions? There seems to be a lot of condition discarding available to all races, with Ancestral Knowledge and the Acorn being my least favorite [not a [Shire] or [Dwarven] mechanic]. Meanwhile, I didn't really see anything [Gandalf] about discarding conditions, but again, quick scans.
Smaug is a really expensive minion with a lot of ways to kill him before he even gets to a skirmish. Exerting Bard twice (with the Black Arrow), or twice normally with Kili...I understand Smaug is killed by an arrow, but maybe more flavorful text [seeing as he murders a bunch of civilians first] might be:
For each companion and ally you can spot, Smaug is twilight cost -1.
At the start of each fierce skirmish involving Smaug, suspend the current phase and begin a second archery phase.
I used A Dark Shape Sprang as a template, but that allows Smaug to kill some folks, then, if you can't kill other baddies who might absorb another round of archery wounds, kill him with arrows. The card looks badass, by the way. You could even lose the regroup text with that.
Thror's Map is a free play of a mountain site. The original errata cost two exertions. I didn't really look at any sites, but it was worth noting.
You could, in theory, play all three Trolls for 12 twilight: [3] for Orcs, then [5], [3], and [1] for the other guys.
I think Dwalin should have to exert twice to be defender +1, unless you are looking for him to be a replacement for Aragorn, Ranger of the North for [1] less.
The power curve in this game seems pretty intense. I don't think the cost-to-strength ratio for several companions, minions, events, and possessions seem on point.
-wtk
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Again, the cards are fully tested and the cost/strength ratio is great for the tested cards. These cards are printed now and we run several tournaments with these cards:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters.html
Be careful, the cards from this link are now under test : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
Sauron as a condition isn't more attractive :(.
Look a bit closer on the rules and the cards, you will see how the game works ;).
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I don't think so, but it's your opinion. Not sure if your propositions have more flavor, the only way to know is playtesting....
All players who played it (~20 players) help me a lot in the design of the game and now like it a lot.
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Sauron as a condition isn't more attractive, but what is Sauron doing there anyway? If he was a vengeful spirit in The Lord of the Rings, he definitely wasn't strong enough to show up in the Hobbit, even if he was just commanding his army to be "fierce."
My proposal would be something along the lines of:
[5] Orkish Legions
Condition • Support Area
Each Orc is fierce.
Assignment: Exert an Orc twice to assign it to a companion (except Bilbo). That companion can exert to prevent this.
At the start of the regroup phase, discard this condition.
Let's not forget that the Hobbit doesn't mention Sauron a single time, with passing references to the Necromancer in the first and last chapters.
-wtk
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For the new Shadow Pack, we decide to make a [Wraith] and [Sauron] Shadows in the new Beatdown Pack. And we also add some other cards only coming from the movies.
The Sauron Shadow is a transversal Shadow, as Gollum in the Beatdown Pack 1. It will use cards from other Shadows in order to counter-draft them.
Your condition isn't enough viable since there aren't so much Orcs with vitality 3 or more and as you said there are a lot of wounding before the skirmishes.
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- Secret Door: There's a little problem. It says "Maneuver:" from the previous version, but shouldn't be a phase action.
- Power Struggle: I love the new picture!
NOTE: I'll be editing this post to add more reviews.
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@Ket_the_jet: Saruman in FOTR block can't fight but is still a minion. And there's Saruman's Staff to make him fight, just as Sauron has the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór in the Hobbit Draft Game. (There is also a [Dwarven] version of the Ring of Thrór, the same way as there is a [Gandalf] Palantír of Orthanc and 2 [Isengard] ones.)
Sauron The Necromancer takes 1 skill from SotE (assigns Orcs and Nazgul) and 1 from KoI (makes Orcs fierce). And can't fight but can take archery wounds, just like Rabble-rouser. And the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór allows him to fight, makes him fierce and gives him +1 vitality. So yes, it's a minion and not a condition.
Sauron isn't mentioned in The Hobbit book, that's right, but many things in the films were only present in the LOTR books and appendices. After recovering the Ring of Thrór from Thráin, Sauron got enough power to rise again. Could have been at Dol Guldur, to lead an attack to Rivendell or Lothlórien from there, but was forced to retreat to Mordor by the White Council before he could muster such an army. (In Tolkien's writings, was Saruman who played the lead role in expeling Sauron from Dol Guldur, not Galadriel.) The idea of Sauron not having power to take physical form without The One is Jackson's, not Tolkien's.
So he was present when Gandalf left the Company to join !the Wise. And had enough power to show up and wreak havoc. And didn't need to be present "commanding" his armies, it's a matter of his will pushing his servants to accomplish his plans. Just like Saruman's will was pressing his Uruks towards Isengard (to get The One Ring sooner, as he believed), and even was pressing the hearts of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas to slow them down.
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Thank you :up:. I change Secret Door and Jail (a bit better now).
I also update the front page of this post.
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- Jail: I like the new version of Jail. Now can hold several Wise fellows imprisoned in the same card, but adding only 1 per regroup phase, and a single victory of Elrond or Saruman (or cards like Ancestral Knowledge or Sting) will break the cage. :up:
- !Roäc & Dain: These cards are ok in their texts, they only need pictures with better resolution.
- Secret Door: This site has a little misspelling: "If you can spot THE Thrór's Key...", that word must be removed.
- Battle Ram: With the new reduced attributes, a cost of [3] is too high. I'd change it to [2] only.
I have nothing else to say about these add-ons and new Shadow packs. Everything else seems perfect and finished. Cheers!
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Thank you :).
- Roäc & Dain: These cards are printed in real cards since April, I will not change the picture. It's ok on the card.
- Secret Door: Ok. I will change it during the next updates (after the next playtest)
- Battle Ram: We will test it with 3 first and see if it's ok.
We will make a new playtesting next week. And there will be a new tournament of the Hobbit Draft Game the 17th October:
http://frealaf.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1086
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We made a playtest last Sunday. Here are the next updates:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates2.html
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I'm sorry for this long absense. I've been tired and busy all these days, and sometimes sick too :(. Hope this doesn't come too late...
- Battle Ram: How did it behave with a cost of [3]? I still think it should cost [2] only. You said you wanted it to be like the mounts of Set 13, and none of those mounts costs more than [2]. The skirmish ability is useful but not OP, and you'll need to use it selectively because now doesn't provide a vitality bonus. The main potential I think is in the powerful healing skill, but unlike Boromir DoMT it's not self-dependent. For those reasons I think [2] is a better cost.
- Sauron, The Necromancer: Sauron's assignment skill should be very important, I have no problem with raising the doubt alternative cost to 2. :up:
- Ulaire Enquea: I believe it's extremely powerful and doesn't fit the lore :(. Needs an alternative cost to be more balanced in both aspects. This should be ok: "The Free Peoples player may exert that ally and a companion to prevent this." If we consider Elrond will be healing each Wise ally per turn, exerting only a Wise ally has no relevancy, but exerting also a companion makes the cost persistent, brings back some grinding power to Nazguls, and may reduce Elrond's vitality so he won't heal that companion. If the White Council pack is present, Wise allies will have more power and presence but also will be more necessary (Bilbo & the Dwarves won't have direct help from that pack), and those exertions on Wise allies can trigger Jail if they accumulate.
- Ulaire Cantea: Hmmm, I like the idea on this one. But shouldn't "prevent all wounds to [Wraith] minions", instead should "prevent [Wraith] minions from taking wounds" until the assignment phase. In both cases your Nazgul won't be wounded before fighting, but if you prevent all wounds to them you will erase the FP archery, protecting Sauron, Smaug and your Orcs from arrows.
- Ulaire Nelya & Ulaire Otsea: Looks fine. Seems that the previous versions were too powerful with only 1 exertion. :up: If these new versions happen to depend too much on the new Cantea (to prevent them from being killed), you may preserve the old cost of 1 exertion BUT adding "limit once per phase". I have the impression that not pulling Cantea in the Draft may kill these 2 Nazguls; if your opponent sees that, he/she will surely counterdraft Cantea from your hands.
- Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army: Seems that the previous version had some troubles getting those 3 doubts. This new version will either prevent the FP player from using Bilbo as a pin cushion, or will give an use to those wounds on Bilbo; that's clever. But if you only need to spot those wounds, Bolg + Danger Wrapped in Shadows will mean a direct wound plus 3 pumps each site for absolutely no cost. The FP player may heal Bilbo to 1 or 0 wounds, but your Orcs at regroup will still bring big troubles if only the Dwarves (and Gandalf) take those wounds.
I'd change the regroup skill a bit: "Regroup: If you cannot spot 3 doubts, heal Bilbo to add a doubt." That way you will need a minimum of 1 wound on Bilbo to add the same number of doubts, but the loop will now have a cost. Keep in mind the FP player will prefer to have 3 wounds on Bilbo than to allow you to directly wound a Dwarf of your choice, so healing Bilbo is not a favor at all.
- Orkish Pursuer: This gives more importance to the Orkish Bow, and to Orcs provided by the Main Deck. That's a nice addition. :up:
- Hidden Attack: Now it has the flavour of a real ambush, with both stopping power and regroup wounding. I like the new concept a lot! =D> =D> =D> But I think it needs a spotting requirement ("spot 2 Orcs" or so), otherwise with some cards in the dead pile you'll be able to skip directly from Shadow to Regroup phase (play no minions) to then play a lot of fresh regroup wounding Orcs AND make a double move extremely dangerous. If you add a spotting requirement, that might represent the need of having some Orcs to attract Thorin towards the trap and to delay him there until the ambushers come.
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I'm sorry for this long absense. I've been tired and busy all these days, and sometimes sick too :(. Hope this doesn't come too late...
No problem, I hope you are fine now ;).
- Battle Ram: How did it behave with a cost of [3]? I still think it should cost [2] only. You said you wanted it to be like the mounts of Set 13, and none of those mounts costs more than [2]. The skirimish ability is useful but not OP, and you'll need to use it selectively because now doesn't provide a vitality bonus. The main potential I think is in the powerful healing skill, but unlike Boromir DoMT it's not self-dependent. For those reasons I think [2] is a better cost.
This card is really strong (the heal part and the boost part). Not sure, if we reduce to [2]. One of the playtester thinks [2] would make the card too good.
- Ulaire Enquea: I believe it's extremely powerful and doesn't fit the lore :(. Needs an alternative cost to be more balanced in both aspects. This should be ok: "The Free Peoples player may exert that ally and a companion to prevent this." If we consider Elrond will be healing each Wise ally per turn, exerting only a Wise ally has no relevancy, but exerting also a companion makes the cost persistent, brings back some grinding power to Nazguls, and may reduce Elrond's vitality so he won't heal that companion. If the White Council pack is present, Wise allies will have more power and presence but also will be more necessary (Bilbo & the Dwarves won't have direct help from that pack), and those exertions on Wise allies can trigger Jail if they accumulate.
I have to change his lore text. I was thinking about this one (probably simpler than the previous one):
• Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4.
Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to exhaust a Wise ally. The Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions to prevent this.
- Ulaire Cantea: Hmmm, I like the idea on this one. But shouldn't "prevent all wounds to [Wraith] minions", instead should "prevent [Wraith] minions from taking wounds" until the assignment phase. In both cases your Nazgul won't be wounded before fighting, but if you prevent all wounds to them you will erase the FP archery, protecting Sauron, Smaug and your Orcs from arrows.
He is probably too good. I'm not sure if it's a good idea of making too different Nazguls. Maybe a Cantea similar as Nelya ? Or Enquea ?
I think I will give to the "Revived" keyword a second change. But only for the 3 big Nazguls (WK, Attea, Toldea). I remove the first ability by (twilight cost of Orc -3) :
Revived 3 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -3) for the WK
Revived 2 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -2) for Attea and Toldea
- Ulaire Nelya & Ulaire Otsea: Looks fine. Seems that the previous versions were too powerful with only 1 exertion. :up: If these new versions happen to depend too much on the new Cantea (to prevent them from being killed), you may preserve the old cost of 1 exertion BUT adding "limit once per phase". I have the impression that not pulling Cantea in the Draft may kill these 2 Nazguls; if your opponent sees that, he/she will surely counterdraft Cantea from your hands.
Ok for the limit once per phase for Otsea and Nelya.
- Bolg, Captain of the Goblin Army: Seems that the previous version had some troubles getting those 3 doubts. This new version will either prevent the FP player from using Bilbo as a pin cushion, or will give an use to those wounds on Bilbo; that's clever. But if you only need to spot those wounds, Bolg + Danger Wrapped in Shadows will mean a direct wound plus 3 pumps each site for absolutely no cost. The FP player may heal Bilbo to 1 or 0 wounds, but your Orcs at regroup will still bring big troubles if only the Dwarves (and Gandalf) take those wounds.
I'd change the regroup skill a bit: "Regroup: If you cannot spot 3 doubts, heal Bilbo to add a doubt." That way you will need a minimum of 1 wound on Bilbo to add the same number of doubts, but the loop will now have a cost. Keep in mind the FP player will prefer to have 3 wounds on Bilbo than to allow you to directly wound a Dwarf of your choice, so healing Bilbo is not a favor at all.
I also want to change Bolg :). Maybe add "archer" for an easy use with Orkish Pursuer and instead of "spot 3 doubts" maybe "at a battleground" ?
Maybe a simpler way to prevent damage with the Orkish Bow (it's hard to have a lot of twilight with this Shadow). This version seems better against a welel-stuffed Thorin:
Orkish Bow : Cost (1). [Gundabad] Possession. Ranged Weapon. Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc. Bearer is an archer. Skirmish: Remove [2] to prevent a [Gundabad] Orc from taking wounds.
Another change: These [Gundabad] Orcs will now be site 3 (like the others [Gundabad] Orcs. Site 4 was too hard for them :/. And I will add on the Orkish Veteran :
At site 9, each [Gundabad] Orc is an archer.
- Hidden Attack: Now it has the flavour of a real ambush, with both stopping power and regroup wounding. I like the new concept a lot! =D> =D> =D> But I think it needs a spotting requirement ("spot 2 Orcs" or so), otherwise with some cards in the dead pile you'll be able to skip directly from Shadow to Regroup phase (play no minions) to then play a lot of fresh regroup wounding Orcs AND make a double move extremely dangerous. If you add a spotting requirement, that might represent the need of having some Orcs to attract Thorin towards the trap and to delay him there until the ambushers come.
Yes, I will probably add "Spot a [Gundabad] Orc to play a [Gundabad Orc at twilight cost -3....". It's more to avoid the too easy "Grond" ability of Smaug.
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No problem, I hope you are fine now ;).
I'm still very busy, but better in health. Thank you! :)
(Battle Ram)This card is really strong (the heal part and the boost part). Not sure, if we reduce to [2]. One of the playtester thinks [2] would make the card too good.
[Dwarven] followers are played only at Fellowship phase, so the twilight you add to play them (and heal bearer) will be used at Shadow phase. Dwarven Axe and Dwarven Spear are better for fighting and cost [1] only. So [2] may be too low, but [3] is too high.
Keeping it at [3] can be balanced by making it a bit better for fighting. Raising its base strength to +2 isn't a good idea... I think that keeping the cost at [3], but raising the Skirmish skill to +2 strength per exertion (with a "limit +3" or so) can be a good middle point.
Another option may be to reduce the cost to [2] and add a cost of [1] to the healing skill: "Each time you play a [Dwarven] follower, you may add [1] to heal bearer." But I like the previous suggestion better: the Battle Ram is mostly a fighting tool, and allows its rider to break enemies' ranks and support another Dwarf in need.
In any case, change "[Dwarven] companion" to "[Dwarven] character" in the Skirmish skill, to allow Dain and the Iron Hills Army to receive that costly help too.
I have to change his lore text. I was thinking about this one (probably simpler than the previous one):
• Ulaire Enquea, Revived: Cost (6). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 11, Vitality 4.
Fierce. Each time an Orc returns into your hand, you may exert Ulaire Enquea to exhaust a Wise ally. The Free Peoples player may exert 2 companions to prevent this.
I like your new idea! He can exert 3 times, which equals to 3 exhausted Wise allies or 6 exertions. That may be a bit too much, so this ability may be better for another Nazgul with less viality (Cantea or Nelya). But the concept behind the ability is pretty neat.
I wasn't referring to Enquea's lore text (when saying "and doesn't fit the lore"), I was saying that blocking a Wise ally from fighting, without giving an alternative to the FP player, such ability doesn't fit the lore of the films/books (The White Council assaulted them and they were surpassed).
(Cantea) He is probably too good.
I think it's fine to protect them from being killed, but you may be right when saying the current version is too good. Perhaps something like "Response: If another [Wraith] minion is about to take a wound, remove [1] and exert Ulaire Cantea to prevent that wound" will be better. Or Ulaire Enquea since he has 4 vitality, and (as mentioned above) your new Enquea's ability would be much more balanced if was carried by another Nazgul with 3 vitality (so exchanging roles with Cantea would be much better).
I'm not sure if it's a good idea of making too different Nazguls. Maybe a Cantea similar as Nelya ? Or Enquea ?
Yes, making them too different has the problem of counterdrafting. The strategy may be too dependant on a single card in the whole draft. Sharing a goal in 2 or 3 Nazguls reduces that problem. That's something we must think about in more extension.
I think I will give to the "Revived" keyword a second change. But only for the 3 big Nazguls (WK, Attea, Toldea). I remove the first ability by (twilight cost of Orc -3) :
Revived 3 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -3) for the WK
Revived 2 (When you play an Orc, you may play this minion from your discard pile at twilight cost -2) for Attea and Toldea
This gives a lot to think about. Seems a good idea, but must be studied in more detail. At first glance, I like it. But makes replaying Orcs returned to hand much harder.
Ok for the limit once per phase for Otsea and Nelya.
:up:
I also want to change Bolg :). Maybe add "archer" for an easy use with Orkish Pursuer and instead of "spot 3 doubts" maybe "at a battleground" ?
Archer Bolg is ok. But then the archery skill must exert, not wound, a Dwarf at your choice. That can be useful against Fili and Kili.
Maybe a simpler way to prevent damage with the Orkish Bow (it's hard to have a lot of twilight with this Shadow). This version seems better against a welel-stuffed Thorin:
Orkish Bow : Cost (1). [Gundabad] Possession. Ranged Weapon. Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc. Bearer is an archer. Skirmish: Remove [2] to prevent a [Gundabad] Orc from taking wounds.
The problem of such a skill is that doesn't allow the FP player to do anything to counter them, except overwhelming an Orc. So giving an alternative to the FP player may balance it: "The Free Peoples player may exert a companion in that skirmish to prevent that". Such alternative cost will help the grinding goal of the Shadow.
Another change: These [Gundabad] Orcs will now be site 3 (like the others [Gundabad] Orcs. Site 4 was too hard for them :/. And I will add on the Orkish Veteran :
At site 9, each [Gundabad] Orc is an archer.
OK for Site Number 3. The Orkish Veteran has only 2 vitality and can be killed at maneuver (Battle of Azanulbizar or Burning Fir Cones) and archery (Kili), so that's balanced. :up:
Yes, I will probably add "Spot a [Gundabad] Orc to play a [Gundabad Orc at twilight cost -3....". It's more to avoid the too easy "Grond" ability of Smaug.
Cool! Another option may be to change it to this: "Spot X Orcs (limit 3) to play a [Gundabad] Orc from your discard pile at twilight cost -X. You may repeat this for each character in the dead pile." That way, having zero Orcs to spot and 3 characters in the dead pile, the 1st would cost -0, the 2nd'd cost -1, the 3rd'd cost -2 and the 4th'd cost -3. That means a total reduction of -6 if you can't first spot an Orc, while a fixed reduction of -3 to each means a total reduction of -12. That's better to reduce Smaug's skill.
I think that adding another copy of Hidden Attack (and removing 1 of Orkish Bow) may be good if it's power or viability is too low for only 2 copies.
Peace and Health my friend.
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Thank you for your ideas. I put all the new ideas here:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates2.html
Tell me what you think about it.
I prefer a simpler version of Hidden Attack. Not sure if I change the Battle Ram now, it still needs some playtests. I keep in mind all your ideas ;).
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I just change the Nazguls for a simpler strategy.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
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Here's my revision, except for the Nazguls which are a bit complicated and will likely post them tomorrow.
- Orkish Bow: Ok for the Orkish Bow costing 0 to not choke its own Response action. :up:
- Enchanted River: Much better in Shadow phase than in Maneuver. :up:
- The Great Enemy: :up:
- Jail: This version seems very cool. Doesn't need an exhausted Wise character, but if that's the case there's no possible counter. Otherwise grinds them, which is always useful. Simple and versatile. =D>
- Savage Warg: Given its cost, +3 strength is much better. :up: I think the Warg minion will be better with strength 10. I really don't know, but with 9 and no damage bonus feels like it'll be killed by Thorin with ease, or will cause only a single wound.
- Dwarven Song: That's better. :up: This version doesn't allow you to play 1 artifact and 1 possession. If you change it to "...to play X [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact cards from your draw deck", you'll be able to choose X [Dwarven] items regardless of card type.
- Shadow Arkenstone: Apparently the previous version 1) was too complicated, or 2) had little attractive given the vitality bonus. In respect of point 1, how did it behave with allies? I believe it should be bearable by Bard too, and keep that strength reduction to other factions. If we remove that "non-Wise character" exception, the text will be much clearer.
In respect of point 2, it's alright to remove that vitality bonus, but I still think it should give something good to bearer. That might be a damage bonus (with Bilbo is almost useless). It'd portray the anger and bitterness its bearer will have when defending it. Also, you can reduce its twilight cost to 1 or 0, to make it even more attractive to the Shadow player (it will always have an implicit cost: the [Dwarven] Arkenstone must not be in play).
The -1 strength doesn't convince me. It must give Bilbo an incentive to pass it to another guy, but if Thorin (or Bard) bears it, shouldn't reduce Thorin (or Bard)'s strength. Resistance -1 or -2 will strike Bilbo only, and if you keep the previous text to "divide and rule", Bilbo will suffer a -2 strength bonus after passing it to Thorin (plus the doubts added that way, which can feed many Shadow cards). I think that's important according to the film, where Bilbo fears to give it to Thorin to not make his dragon-sickness even greater:
BILBO: Balin... if Thorin had the Arkenstone, or if it was found, would it help?
BALIN: That stone crowns all. It is the summit of this great wealth, bestowing power upon he who bears it.
BILBO: Would it stay his madness?
BALIN: No, laddie. I fear it would make him worse. Perhaps it is best it remains lost.
(0) •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Resistance -2
Plays on Bilbo. Bearer is damage +1.
At sites 7 to 9, each companion or ally of
another culture than bearer's is strength
-2 (except [Elven] if bearer is Bard).
Bard, Bilbo and Thorin gain this ability:
"Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer
the Arkenstone to this character."
"'I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it!"
I put another lore text, from the book. I think it's simpler and much more attractive than the vitality +1 version, while keeping the "divide and rule" thing between the Dwarves vs Elves+Men coallition.
You might even make it "except [Elven] and [Shire] if bearer is Bard", to portray Bilbo being protected by Bard (the Great Barricade of the same Thorin pack affects only Dwarves, so we can think Bilbo isn't inside the Mountain with them).
I owe you the revision about the Nazgul. I've been working on another supplementary pack (22 cards) depicting the journey towards Erebor. I'll post it soon.
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Ok, for the Nazguls, see the new images here.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
Also, see some new changes on the Bolg Shadow. One problem was the high number of damage Thorin could make, so I change the Bow.
- Savage Warg : Ok, but a strength 10 would be make the card much more stronger than the other Wargs. I think it's strong enough now.
- Dwarven Song : I wanted to make the version you suggest, but I think it's far too strong if the Free Peoples player could play 3 [Dwarven] artifacts and/or possessions with Bombur. The Free Peoples player has to make a choice. We will test it first.
- Shadow Arkenstone : I need a much simpler version. Players need a card which can be easily used. Moreover, with a bonus for the bearer, players didn't know if it was a Shadow card or a FP card.... In order to avoid a misunderstanding, I prefer a strength reduction on the card than a resistance reduction (Thorin and Bard don't have any resistance). The strength reduction on allies has no impact. The transfer to Bard is now a simple discard of the problem, Bilbo is more afraid of disobeying Thorin than give him the Arkenstone. I propose this :
• The Arkenstone, King's Jewel :
Cost (2). [No Culture] Artifact.
Strength -1.
Plays on Bilbo.
At sites 7 to 9, each time a [Dwarven] companion is overwhelmed, wound bearer twice.
Thorin gains this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to Thorin (or 4 doubts to discard this artifact)."
Great for the new pack !! :up:
PS: New image of Azog commander.
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Nazguls
I like the distribution in groups of 3x Nazgul for the same function. "Fighters", "grinders" and "gatherers" we might call them...
- !Dol Guldur Blade: Ok for the wound prevention, it's a very clever solution. That makes it more useful with small, low vitality Nazguls.
- Witch King, Attea & Toldea: These 3 "fighters" are ok, but I found a small problem. The twilight reduction says "if you spot an Orc", an optional action; optional actions are usually written this way: "When you play this minion, you can spot an Orc to make its twilight cost -3". You can make it obligatory by adding the word "can": "...if you can spot an Orc". In both cases the lines used should be 2.
- Ulaire Enquea: I like Enquea's skill, it's like William the Troll punishing followers. Anyway, there are 2 points that worry me a lot:
1. Doesn't specify from where or to where the follower is transferred. So works also at the end of the turn when followers return to support area. You can punish the FP player twice: once at maneuver, and once again at the end of the turn (if you still have Orcs, of if Hidden Attack provides new ones). So it must specify "transfers a follower to a companion", or "to a character" (I like this one more, 'cause we might at some point make FP followers that can transfer to allies or minions).
2. It's a Response action. So can be repeated with the same trigger, as far as you can still pay the cost. AND the cost is too flexible, returning a virtually limitless number of Orcs in play. Thus, if 1 follower is transferred and you have (let's say) 4 Orcs in play, you'd inflict 4 direct exertions (or 8 if there's 6 comps). Unlikely William, who works only once per trigger. Usually Nazguls work according to their vitality, which isn't the case here. I see 3 options by the moment:
2.1 "Response: If... transfers a follower to a character, exert Ulaire Enquea and return an Orc to your hand...". Enquea provides a limit of 3 times, due to his vitality of 4. You can trigger all 3 exertions at once if a single follower is transferred (having 3 or more Orcs). Still extremely powerful: besides many direct exertions, can also trigger Cantea and Nelya at their maximum (twice) with 2 Orcs and only 1 follower.
2.2 "Each time the FP player transfers a follower to a character, you may return an Orc to your hand to exert...". Only once per transference, and is limited to the number of followers the FP player transfers (to a character, and not back to support area). Like William. Enquea doesn't use his vitality.
2.3 "Each time the FP player transfers a follower to a character, you may exert Ulaire Enquea OR return an Orc to your hand...". Only once per transference. More versatile and powerful. Can work returning Orcs, or exerting Enquea. Useful is there's no Orc to return (unlike Ostea, Lemenya & Nertea, you can't play Orcs in maneuver so you won't recycle the same Orc over and over again).
I believe it must be an "each time" and not a Response action. Those are mighty direct exertion (besides triggering Cantea and Nelya). I like 2.3, because you can't (re)play Orcs at maneuver so you have to rely on what you have on the board, if there's no Orc you still have Enquea's vitality. That way, Enquea's sole presence will frighten the FP player from transferring (too many) followers.
- Ulaire Cantea: Nice. Limited to Cantea's 3 vitality, instead of Enquea's 4. :up: If playtesting proves it too powerful, reduce "exhaust" to "exert up to 2 times", to let an unwounded Elrond/Saruman/Radagast/Thranduil/Elf Army/Esgaroth Volunteers with 1 spare vitality.
- Ulaire Nelya: Hmmm, I fear this might be too much. With Sauron assigning any strength 1 (or +) minion to overwhelm a strength 0 Galadriel, or any strength 8 or + to !Radagast/Saruman/Gandalf/Elrond... I'd change it to make a single Wise character strength -2. Or each Wise character -1. But the idea is good, just needs an adjustment. Perhaps an alternative cost, "the Free Peoples player may... to prevent that".
- Ostea, Lemenya & Nertea: These are good as they are. :up: Otsea can be worded a bit differently. Instead of stating "where X is the number of [Wraith] minions you spot" at the end of the text, you can incorporate to the start: "Exert Ulaire Otsea twice, return an Orc to your hand and spot X [Wraith] minions" to draw X cards and add [X]. Lemenya is also better getting you a Nazgul from discard.
That's all regarding the Nazguls. I owe you the new supplementary pack (I have to add Shadow cards and 1 site) and the Shadow Arkenstone.
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Argh, the Nazguls changed. You comment the previous version of the Nazguls.
See there:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Next_Updates3.html
and there:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
After many tests, I decided to change the Nazguls: it was too complicated and unsteady to return an Orc in hand then play a Nazgul, ......
Sorry for the time you spent with the previous version :(.
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Argh, the Nazguls changed. You comment the previous version of the Nazguls.
...Sorry for the time you spent with the previous version :(.
I'll be posting about those soon. No problem, I had fun analizing them and will surely have fun analizing the new ones ;).
Here are the FP cards of the supplementary pack I promised. I lack the Shadow cards, those probably will be related to Smaug. And the site too... but FP is what I have, and what I post here.
"The Quest of Erebor" Thematic Pack
The idea behind this pack is to portray the conspiration that preceeded the Quest and the subsequent Journey through the wild lands. Such a pack must contain tricks to assemble the Quest, and to survive the long Journey. Draw cards and return discarded things, heal the group, reduce exertion and twilight costs, some strength aids...
With these cycling and recycling cards, you'll be able to build bigger decks with more resources to confront different situations. Unlike all previous packs, this pack doesn't provide any follower or ally. The Company relies on itself alone.
- Dwarven Cloak. [Dwarven] Possession • Cloak
- Dwarven Shovel. [Dwarven] Possession • Hand Weapon
- Dwarven Thirst. [Dwarven] Event
- !Never Forgave, !Never Forgot. [Dwarven] Event
- A Chance Meeting. [Gandalf] Event
- Also A Took. [Shire] Event
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F33.media.tumblr.com%2Fca6c323b5e4d238357d9b6d22f07cbf6%2Ftumblr_mzhzlqeRTV1smsqd5o9_500.gif&hash=9c94c8a0084fd6f6d9412bd112aa3216cb45bc50)
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard this possession from play (or 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand) to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."
The Dwarven cloaks were important in the book, being both an implement of journey and a symbol of it. A cloak makes any travel easier by reducing the impact of weather and terrain (here represented by conditions like Stone Giants and Enchanted River, which exert the Dwarves), saving stamina during long marches; also helps to hide bearer's identity. So it should help against twilight and exertions.
The skills of this card are opposed. Both require to discard/play [Dwarven] cards from hand, so unusually you'll have plenty to abuse one or use both. The "Strength of Spirit" Response action is powerful but must be used selectively due to its high cost (Ori and Óin also consume [Dwarven] cards). Some Dwarves like Gloin, Fili and Kili will rejoice with it, but can also protect an important Dwarf or Bilbo from exertions caused by sites or Shadow players (like Azog the Defiler or Sauron).
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.org%2Fwonxv3dm9%2FShovel.jpg&hash=827e6592c9fb64fb16f4fb2e50053a6fdd34da1a)
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand and exert bearer to draw 3 cards.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
Card drawing was a staple of the [Dwarven] culture in LOTR TCG, and here there is only Ori (but too late to play those followers / companions / possessions). So I made this Hand Axe with a built-in Delving special ability to cover that absense. As a weapon you can play it from draw deck at site 2, and then use it to set up much faster.
[1] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com%2Fvoxmagazine.com%2Fcontent%2Ftncms%2Fassets%2Fv3%2Feditorial%2F1%2F1a%2F11a75856-3608-5fb5-80a6-756614c96b51%2F567b0b81c7569.image.gif&hash=87084b25ccc4f6a165b677f7dcad5a7401f48460)
Event • Fellowship
Add [X] and discard X cards from your hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"
Like Hobbit Appetite, but more costly (+ [1] and discards X cards) and heals the group, not a single individual.
[2] !Never Forgave, !Never Forgot [Dwarven]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.giphy.com%2FNIpAeXSbYFRp6.gif&hash=128193ce7ab66b604ceab8b065f97b9aad0fec1a)
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may exert Thorin to play a [Dwarven] follower from your discard pile or to attach a [Dwarven] follower in play to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread;
the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
Thorin's fierce grudge, turned into a skirmish event. Like Cleaving Blow (str+2, dmg+1) but also allows Thorin to bring back a follower ("gathering his old friends to fight Smaug") or to attach a follower in play, either attached or in support area ("encouraging them to join the fight"). This card is meant to bring teamwork. A follower transferred this way will support any companion in need, [Dwarven] or not.
[1] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
(https://sanikasplace.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/vlcsnap-2014-01-05-13h08m40s143.png)
Event • Fellowship
Spot Gandalf and X Dwarves to shuffle X Free Peoples cards from your discard pile into your draw deck. You may exert Thorin to remove a doubt or to draw X cards.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
Gandalf and Thorin conspirate and bring back to light plans and schemes long in the dark. With all that drawing and discarding, you'll need a way to get some cards back. Also, Thorin can remove a doubt ("encourages his friends about the Quest") or draw cards ("gathers resources for the Quest"). This card can spot any Dwarf: companion, ally and follower.
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.giphy.com%2FRBrGJTJatOoEM.gif&hash=9a67b59d2ff6b34dd8cd3af24b5a036c3dc1e628)
Event • Maneuver or Skirmish
Stealth.
Exert Bilbo to make a companion strength +3 or to take into your hand a [Shire] card from your discard pile.
You may exert Bilbo to play this event from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
Powerful but costly: if played from discard, Bilbo exerts twice. So you'll have a tool to exert him twice anytime you desperately need a) to make a companion strength +3, or b) to get back another [Shire] card, as a discarded item (like when he lost The One Ring for a moment in Mirkwood) or an event (useful when combined with Bilbo's pack). If Bilbo aids himself with this card, he'll need to either have enough spare vitality/resistance to soak the wounds from losing, or will be forced to win the skirmish; so won't be so useful against big minions with damage bonuses.
Hope you all like them. Please comment, folks!
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Bolg's Army:
- !Orkish Veteran: To force a site 1-8 (or Thrór's Throne) to be a battleground, you need to play Watchful Orc and exhaust him. Then you need this minion to use that battleground. 2 cards + [5]. If you don't play them from hand, you'll need to ditch 6 cards with Hatred Rekindled, or burn those 3 Hosts of Thousands. So it's expensive (before site 9).
But then each Gundabad Orc (except that exhausted Watchful Orc) becomes a machine gun, shooting before skirmish wounds can hinder them. Bolg and Orkish Pursuer will provide 2 arrows, and The Orc Army 3. Narzug, Yazneg, Orkish Marauder and Aggressor, each will shoot 1 arrow. So it's really powerful. A "limit +3" or so is imperatively necessary. Having 2 Orkish Veterans on the board the limit will be +6 (just like TMAYOD).
One problem was the high number of damage Thorin could make, so I change the Bow.
- Orkish Bow: Removing all possible damage bonuses destroys most FP counters to regroup wounding Orcs. [Isengard] Orcs have Trapped and Alone to protect them, but removes only the damage bonuses of weapons. Only Orcrist, Bombur and Dwarven Axe (Thorin Pack) provide extrinsical damage bonuses here. So this card should instead say "each character... loses all damage bonuses from weapons" or "from weapons and followers", to allow the intrinsic damage of Fili, Thorin, Dwalin and Glóin to do some counterweight.
[Isengard] Orcs differ from [Moria] Archery, in that skirmishes can prevent those wounds. If you block that counter, the same would be to wound during regroup than during archery with imitations of Moria Archer Troop, Goblin Archer and Archer Commander (there's no Elven Cloak, Great Shield, Shield of Boromir, Hosts of the Last Alliance... to counter massive arrows, only Bofur and Óin to heal / prevent, but at a high cost).
I know this bow can be discarded but you need to either exert Nori twice + discard a follower (added), or kill bearer but that will be almost impossible without damage bonuses. That's much worse if the Orkish Bow is borne by a durable Orc like Bolg or The Orc Army.
- Hidden Attack: -2 twilight instead of -3 seems more equilibrated. :up:
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Pack I : The Quest of Erebor Pack
The idea behind this pack is to portray the conspiration that preceeded the Quest and the subsequent Journey through the wild lands. Such a pack must contain tricks to assemble the Quest, and to survive the long Journey. Draw cards and return discarded things, heal the group, reduce exertion and twilight costs, some strength aids...
I really like this multicultural pack !!! The Shadow cards will probably counter the most powerful cards of this pack.
I need some high-definition images (>1000x800) to make the cards :). Can you give me the link of such images for each card ?
Whose cards you want in 3x and in 2x ?
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard this possession to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."
Maybe a more simple text. The cost of the response ability is a bit too complicated. Maybe a more simple cost ?
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand and exert bearer to draw 3 cards.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
Ok! Really nice!
[1] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Add [X] and discard X cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"
The effect is more close to Might of Numenor than Hobbit Appetite. But I think it's ok ^^.
[2] !Never Forgave, !Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may exert Thorin to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
I prefer a much more simple card. And I really want that To Me! O my Kinsfolk! will be still really useful. Most of the time it's one of the last cards during a draft.
[1] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to draw X cards, X is the number of [Dwarven] companions you spot.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
I make a simpler card, we need now only Gandalf and Thorin to make great project :).
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Exert Bilbo to make a companion strength +3 or to take into hand a [Shire] card from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
I think the replayability of a Free Peoples event is too strong.
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Orkish Veteran: I don't know yet what is the best between
At site 9, each [Gundabad] Orc is an archer.
or
Archery: Exert a [Gundabad] Orc at a battleground to make the minion archery total +1 (limit +2).
I want another mass wounding way and some possibilities to counterdraft this Shadow.
Orkish Bow: Ok, but in FOTR, only Gimli is damage +1. I will test both ways (with and without removing damage from companions).
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I really like this multicultural pack !!! The Shadow cards will probably counter the most powerful cards of this pack.
That makes me really glad :)! Those 2 shadow cards might be Smaug (the target of the conspiration), or enemies they find in the road (Goblins, Warg minions/Warg possessions, Warg-riders, Spiders, perhaps Shadow elven followers). I still don't know. Even a weather condition.
I need some high-definition images (>1000x800) to make the cards :). Can you give me the link of such images for each card ?
I'll try to upload some movie shots and post the links. Anyway, those images are only suggestions. The idea of using images was to show in a better way whay I was trying to represent.
For Dwarven Shovel, there are really few frames of Nori using it, and all are either dark and a bit blurry (so they need some photoshop work: bright, contrast, sharpness...) or the shovel is shown cut. There are also images of Fili carrying this shovel on his back, when escaping towards Rivendell. Those images are much clearer but sadly don't combine with the "long-term deposit" lore text.
Whose cards you want in 3x and in 2x ?
I still don't know which card will have 3 copies and which only 2. That's completely open to discussion.
[1] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to draw X cards, X is the number of [Dwarven] companions you spot.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
I make a simpler card, we need now only Gandalf and Thorin to make great project :).
OK for the new cost, but not for the effect (Dwarven Shovel draws 3 for a sole exertion). This Pack needs a strong card to return discarded things to draw deck. Look at the Cloak, the Shovel and the Thirst: they all discard cards from hand. The Shovel also draws cards. So you'll be ditching a lot of your draw deck and when you do that, getting back discarded or used things will bring you much-needed new blood to face late-game threats. I propose this:
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Exert Gandalf and Thorin and spot X Dwarves to choose one: draw X cards, shuffle X cards from your discard pile into your draw deck, or remove [X].
The new twilight cost is [2]. So you can spot 3 or more Dwarves to remove twilight (paying 2 exertions). Or spot X Dwarves to draw X cards. Or return X things you used and need again (like main deck events) or things you ditched (with Ori, Oin, Shovel, Cloak or Thirst) but now are important to survive.
This card should be able to spot Dwarf followers too, they are an important part of the Company (and you rarely will have more than 3 [Dwarven] followers due to Orkish Marauder). If you want to exclude allies, that's fine, can be done by writing "spot X non-ally Dwarves" or "spot X Dwarves (except allies)". This pack doesn't have [Dwarven] allies to spot anyway. And this card can't spot Roäc (it's [Dwarven] but not a Dwarf).
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard this possession to place no token for that exertion.
Maybe a more simple text. The cost of the response ability is a bit too complicated. Maybe a more simple cost ?
We can rewrite that response cost in a longer, more comprehensible text, but the possibility of discarding 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand is really important. The cloak must be durable instead of a "use once and destroy" tool; also discarding 2 cards from hand provides cycling, which is one of the goals of the Pack. If we include more words, like "wound token" instead of "token", the card will be much easier to understand:
"Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard this possession from play (or discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand) to place no wound token for that exertion."
About a simpler cost... we can make instead a simpler effect. We can change "If bearer is about to exert... to place no token for that exertion" to "Each time bearer exerts, you may... to heal bearer" which is much shorter. It would be the same (one doesn't put the wound, the other puts it and removes it immediatly). That way some comprehension is relieved, which players can invest in understanding the cost.
"Each time bearer exerts, you may discard this possession from play (or 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand) to heal bearer."
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Ok! Really nice!
;D. This card's concept started as a joke about Decipher's Delving and Glóin's words at the Troll Cavern. It started as a classless possession, but a shovel is heavier, harder and sharper than a Flaming Brand, so hey, it should be a weapon ;).
[1] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
The effect is more close to Might of Numenor than Hobbit Appetite. But I think it's ok ^^.
Yes, the effect is more like Might of Numenor, but the concept is based on Hobbit Appetite (Hobbits eat, Dwarves drink, Elves talk...) with the "add [X] to heal X wounds" mechanism.
[2] !Never Forgave, !Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may exert Thorin to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread;
the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
I prefer a much more simple card. And I really want that To Me! O my Kinsfolk! will be still really useful. Most of the time it's one of the last cards during a draft.
It's totally OK to not return a discarded follower. Yes, To me! O my Kinsfolk! needs to conserve its dignity :up:. But I think this card might keep the "attach from play" thing, to pass an already attached follower like Bombur, Bifur or Dori from one fight to another (only Bofur can return to support area, like Gwaihir does). It will portray in a better way the unity and teamwork among these friends in exile.
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
I think the replayability of a Free Peoples event is too strong.
The cost of [2] and 2 Bilbo-exertions is strong too. The strength may be reduced from +3 to +2 to reduce its power. But then it's too weak if played from hand. The cost from hand can be changed from "exert Bilbo" to "spot Bilbo", and the cost from discard to from 1 exertion to exert Bilbo twice.
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Stealth.
Spot Bilbo to make a companion strength +2 or to take into your hand a [Shire] card from your discard pile.
You may exert Bilbo twice to play this event from your discard pile.
Again, I'm glad that you liked it. I'm working on some ideas for a Site card.
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I think this site card might be good for the flavour of this Pack:
The Prancing Pony
Site 1
At the start of your fellowship phase, you may add [2] to take into your hand a [Gandalf] or [Dwarven] event from your draw deck.
The idea is to portray Gandalf & Thorin conspirating at Bree before going to Bag End, and Sauron's spies taking note. Here's another possibility, based on Isengard Ruined* of ROTK:
The Prancing Pony
Site 1
Fellowship: Spot Gandalf and Thorin to add [1]. Each player may draw a card.
Orkish Bow: Ok, but in FOTR, only Gimli is damage +1. I will test both ways (with and without removing damage from companions).
That's right, only Gimli had an intrinsic damage +1, but there were many non-weapon cards that added extrinsic damage. Dwarves had Lord of Moria, Cleaving Blow, Battle Fury and Flurry of Blows (and Let Them Come to discard Orcs). Gondor had Dagger Strike and Still Sharp. Lord of Moria is specially nasty against [Isengard] Orcs and remains on the board.
Orkish Veteran: I don't know yet what is the best between
At site 9, each [Gundabad] Orc is an archer.
or
Archery: Exert a [Gundabad] Orc at a battleground to make the minion archery total +1 (limit +2).
I want another mass wounding way and some possibilities to counterdraft this Shadow.
Frankly, I like the Archery special ability better. You can use it before site 9 if you force the site keyword, and the FP player can try to kill him at maneuver. Also gives usefulness to Watchful Orc (and to Vicious Warg too). And is a bit less vulnerable to Kili (you can make the minion archery +1 between Kili's 2 directed arrows). The "limit +2" will be a bit short at site 9 when there's no regroup phase (with 2 Orkish Veterans you will shoot only 4 arrows). I think a "limit +3" is more balanced.
Pack I : The Quest of Erebor Pack
I have a little question... What does "Pack I" mean? Hope it's the same I'm thinking ;)...
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I don't like multiple effects with "or" or even "and" :(. A card must have only one main goal.
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."
I want to avoid any "or" in the cost of the effect in order to make the cards simpler to test and to use.
[2] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand and exert bearer to draw 3 cards.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
I think a cost of [2] fits better for this weapon (the shovel is heavy).
I don't know if it will be better by taking a card from discard pile rather than draw cards ? By digging, they will find something they previously used.
[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard X Free Peoples cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"
I prefer a simpler card with a fixed cost [2] and without "and" in the cost of the effect.
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may exert Thorin to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
[1] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to reveal the top 10 cards of you draw deck. Take 1 Shadow card and 1 Free Peoples card revealed. Shuffle your draw deck.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
This card has to be played at the beginning of the quest (Gandalf and Thorin plan). So I think the effect must draw cards or look at the top of the draw deck.
Dwarven Shovel can maybe bring back cards from discard pile ?
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take into hand a [Shire] card from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
Bilbo Reliable Companion becomes useless if we can play this event from discard pile.
Maybe make it a [Dwarven] card to play it with Sting ?
The Prancing Pony
Site 1
At the start of your fellowship phase, you may add [2] to take into hand a [Gandalf] event from your draw deck.
Ok for this one, but only [Gandalf] event.
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The Prancing Pony
Ok for this one, but only [Gandalf] event.
I don't see the problem of pulling a specific [Dwarven] event from the start. The only problematic one might be Ancestral Knowledge (but that card works much better at the middle or late game). Anyway, [Gandalf] events are the most powerful and important (more over if we are giving A Chance Meeting such importance) so I think it's fine. :up:
[1] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to reveal the top 10 cards of you draw deck. Take 1 Shadow card and 1 Free Peoples card revealed. Shuffle your draw deck.
This card has to be played at the beginning of the quest (Gandalf and Thorin plan). So I think the effect must draw cards or look at the top of the draw deck.
Dwarven Shovel can maybe bring back cards from discard pile ?
You are right, this belongs to the beginning and The Prancing Pony can assure it'll be played at site 1. Ok for the exertions, but for such a cost the effect is too weak. It shouldn't even take into hand a Shadow card (they are conspirating against the shadows). The effect will be stronger if you put back the remaining cards in any order on the top of your deck (instead of shuffling it), that'd be representing a detailed plannification:
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to look at the top 10 cards of you draw deck. You may reveal up to 2 Free Peoples card and take them into your hand. Put the rest on the top of your draw deck in any order.
So the Dwarven Shovel should bring back to deck or hand discarded stuff.
[2] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
I think a cost of [2] fits better for this weapon (the shovel is heavy).
A shovel is heavier than a Flaming Brand, but much lighter than any axe and most swords. I think [1] will be ok, this weapon will be transferred many times to distribute the exertions and you'll be paying each time its twilight cost again.
I don't know if it will be better by taking a card from discard pile rather than draw cards ? By digging, they will find something they previously used.
Good point. I wanted to imitate Decipher's Delving, but your idea is better. We can try something like this:
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to place 2 Free Peoples cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
Just like Thorin, at the bottom of your deck. You'll need another card to shuffle it (like Balin or AWINL) if you want to draw them sooner.
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand to place no token for that exertion.
The idea behind discarding the cloak was to give a last resource, and to portray the Dwarves joining the Battle: "Out leapt the King under the Mountain, and his companions followed him. Hood and cloak were gone; they were in shining armour, and red light leapt from their eyes." But if only 1 cost option will remain, "discard 2 [Dwarven] cards" is fine. :up:
[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard X Free Peoples cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
I prefer a simpler card with a fixed cost [2] and without "and" in the cost of the effect.
Discarding only FP cards limits too much the Dwarven Cloak. If the Dwarven Shovel has a strong effect recovering discarded things it won't be a big problem, but otherwise will be necessary to change it to "discard X cards from hand".
[2] !Never Forgave, !Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may exert Thorin to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
The "you may exert Thorin to" skill is underpowered if you can only transfer a follower that's in support area (that is, a follower that wasn't attached during maneuver). It will be useful with followers with an expensive cost (like Bofur adding a doubt or Dori exerting Bilbo, but not Bombur or Bifur as you already exert Thorin -a [Dwarven] companion- to use that skill), or with the sole [Dwarven] follower that returns to the support area (Bofur again).
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Bilbo Reliable Companion becomes useless if we can play this event from discard pile.
Maybe make it a [Dwarven] card to play it with Sting ?
You are right about Reliable Companion. I like your idea. But what I was trying to show is Bilbo helping his companions. So I'd change it from recovering "a [Shire] card" to "a Free Peoples card" (that way you can grab a pump for a Dwarf in need). About using it with Sting, I think drawing and recycing events will allow you to use your copies of Ancestral Knowledge with more frequency. Besides, if you include my current proposal you'll be able to get Ancestral Knowledge from discard, for the next site.
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take into hand a Free Peoples card from your discard pile.
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(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."
Ok!
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to place 2 Free Peoples cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
Well done! I think the card could change after some playtests because I'm not sure if the players will use often this ability:
- at the beginning of the game, you have no interesting card in your discard pile
- at the end of the game, you will not draw the cards you put at the bottom of the draw deck.
[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard X cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"
Ok! You are right only Free Peoples cards would make this card too complicated to use. Simple and effective ^^.
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
Similar to Eagles Are Coming in the Wizard Pack.
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. Take up to 2 [Dwarven] cards revealed into hand. Shuffle your draw deck.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
I change it a bit, I think only Dwarves are concerned by this. The last part is better for the Shovel.
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take into hand a [Dwarven] card from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
I think [Dwarven] card will be enough, in order to avoid the return of this event immediatly.
The Prancing Pony
Site 1
At the start of your fellowship phase, you may add [2] to take into hand a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] event from your draw deck.
I change my mind, ok for [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] event.
As soon as you will give me some high-definition images, I will make these new cards ^^.
This pack will be Pack I : The Quest of Erebor Pack, all other packs have a letter :
Pack A : Bilbo Pack
Pack B : Dain Pack
....
Click on the link of the packs here: http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters.html
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The Prancing Pony
I change my mind, ok for [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] event.
:up:
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Ok!
:up:
[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Ok! You are right only Free Peoples cards would make this card too complicated to use. Simple and effective ^^.
Yes! And it relieves the Cloak from a heavy weight. :up:
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take into hand a [Dwarven] card from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
I think [Dwarven] card will be enough, in order to avoid the return of this event immediatly.
Interesting. I like it. It loses the option to recover items (The One Ring, Sting...) but gives direct help to Dwarves, or to himself if you pull Noble Intentions. You can still discard a condition with Sting, by pulling a skirmish event to use at a fierce skirmish with Bilbo. Or directly pull Ancestral Knowledge and use it at next site. :up:
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Well done! I think the card could change after some playtests because I'm not sure if the players will use often this ability:
- at the beginning of the game, you have no interesting card in your discard pile
- at the end of the game, you will not draw the cards you put at the bottom of the draw deck.
;D The Prancing Pony will provide at least 1 card to be in discard pile from the start. But yes, Orcrist and Sting will be much more important at site 2 most of the times.
And don't forget this is a strength +1 weapon, so its usefulness won't expire. We might even remove that "This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon" part and make it a normal 2-handed +2 strength weapon (but I prefer it to be a second weapon and give more prominence to Axes, Swords, Spears and Hammers). Another option is to make bearer strength +1 (to a total strength +2) if not bearing another weapon (that is, if wielding it with both hands):
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
"This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon; if not, bearer is strength +1." Or something similar...
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
Similar to Eagles Are Coming in the Wizard Pack.
I think it's fine now :up:. You can bypass the aid cost of a Dwarf follower that way, like Bofur or Dori which are expensive. And brings some suprise factor. Nice!
Anyway, I've got an idea for another possibility:
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower in play to a companion (by paying its aid cost).
That way you can pay again the aid cost of a Dwarf follower to make him participte again in the fray. Bombur jumping to a 2nd fight, Bifur discarding 2 conditions in 2 fierce skirmishes, Dori saving 2 companions from overwhelming, heal 2 companions with Óin... But not for free.
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. Take up to 2 [Dwarven] cards revealed into hand. Shuffle your draw deck.
I change it a bit, I think only Dwarves are concerned by this. The last part is better for the Shovel.
Yes, shuffling is better for the Shovel :up:. Now, it's true that only Dwarves and Gandalf will be concerned, but the resources employed will be Dwarven and Halfling:
THORIN: The Arkenstone lies half a world away, buried beneath the feet of a fire-breathing Dragon.
GANDALF: Yes, it does. Which is why we're going to need a burglar.
I think it's ok to not take [Gandalf] cards into hand (and thus play another copy of A Chance Meeting), but Bilbo's resources will be important to the Quest, lore-wise.
As soon as you will give me some high-definition images, I will make these new cards ^^.
I'm working on it!
This pack will be Pack I : The Quest of Erebor Pack, all other packs have a letter :
Pack A : Bilbo Pack
Pack B : Dain Pack
....
Click on the link of the packs here: http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters.html
Cool! After posting card ideas for other Thematic packs, you told me I could make other 22-cards supplementary packs. So we can make packs II, III, IV... with other themes like "the Battle of Azanulbizar", "The Siege of Erebor" (Dwarves vs Elves+Men and assaulting Orcs), "The Battle of the Five Armies", "The Battle of Dol Guldur", "The Battle Under the Mountain" or "Battle at the Forges" (Smaug vs the Company)...
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I don't like a more complicated strength bonus. But if the fellowship ability is not strong enough, we can change it for
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to place a [Dwarven] artifact from your discard pile on top of your draw deck.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
I don't know if it's better.
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. Take up to 2 [Dwarven] cards revealed into hand. Shuffle your draw deck.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
In this multicultural pack, non-[Dwarven] cards must focus on [Dwarven] cards. Gandalf and Bilbo "work" for the Dwarves.
I think this [Gandalf] event is strong enough like that.
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
I prefer a much more planned way. If you already transfer Bombur, you didn't plan to transfer him again to counter an unpredictable threat.
Cool! After posting card ideas for other Thematic packs, you told me I could make other 22-cards supplementary packs. So we can make packs II, III, IV... with other themes like "the Battle of Azanulbizar", "The Siege of Erebor" (Dwarves vs Elves+Men and assaulting Orcs), "The Battle of the Five Armies", "The Battle of Dol Guldur", "The Battle Under the Mountain" or "Battle at the Forges" (Smaug vs the Company)...
This pack will be the pack I, but the next one will be pack J, then K,L ..... You can make a lot of packs by respecting the structure of the previous packs (3x3 FP cards + 2x3 FP cards + 3x Shadow card + 2x Shadow card + 2 x site = 22 cards).
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I don't like a more complicated strength bonus. But if the fellowship ability is not strong enough, we can change it for
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Fellowship: Exert bearer to place a [Dwarven] artifact from your discard pile on top of your draw deck.
I don't know if it's better.
I think the current Shovel is ok and won't have any problem. It's a Hand Axe that allows you to return cards to draw deck. This pack will discard a huge lot of cards more than the others (Thirst and Cloak) except perhaps for !The Master in Esgaroth pack, so retuning any FP card is key. I believe this one should have 3 copies instead of 2 to make it more present. Site 2 should be grabbing you Sting or Orcrist as usual.
But you can be right, and in that case your idea of returning artifacts won't be overpowered, as far as we don't include a method to draw with ease during the fellowship phase. Anyway, I think returning any FP card will be key for this "cycling pack".
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
In this multicultural pack, non-[Dwarven] cards must focus on [Dwarven] cards. Gandalf and Bilbo "work" for the Dwarves. I think this [Gandalf] event is strong enough like that.
Agree, it's very powerful as it is. And I like your "all serve the Dwarves" concept. :up:
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
I prefer a much more planned way. If you already transfer Bombur, you didn't plan to transfer him again to counter an unpredictable threat.
The idea is not to use Bombur to counter an unpredicted threat, but to use Bombur's str +2 dmg+1 bonus twice. You can plan to use a Dwarf follower's text and bonus twice, and reap the benefits. Bombur to clear the board, Bifur to discard 2 conditions, Óin to heal 2 wounds. But I agree that would allow to respond to unexpected emergencies, by healing a wound or preventing a defeat, a wound or an overwhelm.
This pack will be the pack I, but the next one will be pack J, then K,L ..... You can make a lot of packs by respecting the structure of the previous packs (3x3 FP cards + 2x3 FP cards + 3x Shadow card + 2x Shadow card + 2 x site = 22 cards).
Hahaha, I'm sorry my friend, I thought you meant the Roman number I, instead of the 9th letter of our western alphabet. I'd feel more ashamed if it didn't make me laugh so much!
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Nazguls
As a general review, I think something to heal Nazguls might be useful. Tthey exert a lot and then are easy to kill, and 3 of them can be blocked before acting by wounding them once or twice: Cantea, Lemenya and Nertea. Their high cost, high site number and small card presence might cause them troubles; you added a site number reduction, but I believe it might be not enough without a cost reduction (here minions are much cheaper than in LOTR TCG).
He Is Summoning His Servants probably needs a built-in protection because only 2 cards will protect it (and only 1 of them is strong), something like "Response: If this condition is about to be discarded by the Free Peoples player", pay X cost "to prevent that", which can be "exert 2 Nazgul", "remove a doubt", "heal an ally twice", etc. Or some skill to replay it, built-in (like If He Losses or Dissension) or in Dol Guldur Blade.
- The Witch King, Attea and Toldea: They have the same specific skills, and as such we agree totally as previously. :up: But they have room for a small addition, and I think that given the high cost of these 3, and the high site number of all Nazguls, something like "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1" might be necessary.
Nazguls in LOTR TCG must hit hard and soon, at the late game are much weaker (they can't really depend on Otsea, Lemenya and Nertea to hit soon). The 3 Trolls provide such reduction, and much of this pack is based on them. I think the Witch King, Attea and Toldea might have a similar text, but reducing only 1 twilight: "Each Nazgul is twilight cost -1."
- Ostea, Lemenya & Nertea: "The site number of each Nazgul is -3". This addition seems fine. But I believe it's not enough to counter their high site number, because it's not too probable that you'll play one of these before site 5.
- Cantea: Powerful to keep your conditions, but has some problems. It's the same goal of Bert the Troll, but there's a considerable difference: Bert doesn't rely on his vitality (and has more), while Cantea and Nertea can be blocked by exhausting them. That's really important if we consider Bifur can discard conditions after fierce skirmishes finished. Nertea can be blocked by a simple directed arrow or losing to a guy with no damage bonus, while Cantea can be blocked by Thorin or Dwalin (worse if bearing Bifur).
- Nertea: This can frighten the FP player from discarding your conditions, but a simple directed arrow removes such threat. Or a skirmish wound, if the condition removal is after maneuver (Sting, Bifur or An Accorn).
- Enquea: "Each time" is better than "Response:" for powerful counters. :up:
- Nelya: Powerful follower counter :up:.
- Otsea: I like this guy's skill. :up: More cards means more Orcs to trigger skills. A possible problem of the drawing skill, although unlikely, is that you can draw a Nazgul with Otsea's skill and if that happens you won't have it in your deck or discard pile to play it with Dol Guldur Blade. That can be solved by adding this at the end: You can discard those cards.
- Lemenya: Powerful, but can be countered by Kili or Buring Fir Cones. :up:
I owe you the revision about He Is Summoning His Servants and Dol Guldur Blade. I must shut down the computer soon, I have ideas but no time right now to write them.
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Ok, we will let the Pack I as it is ;).
Nazguls
A good protection for the [Wraith] condition could be:
3x Dol Guldur Blade :
Cost (1). [Wraith] Possession • Hand Weapon.
Strength +2. Bearer must be a [Wraith] minion. When you play this possession, add [3].
Maneuver: Discard an Orc from hand to play a [Wraith] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
All the problems about the twilight cost of the Nazguls will be refined after a first test. We will first test all the new mechanics of this Shadow. Btw you can bring in play any Nazgul from your draw deck with the Dol Guldur Blade (really powerful at site 2 with TrollShaw Forest).
You are right, the Nazguls are now vulnerable to Kili, but direct wounds is a way to counter them. Moreover, all the problems with Bifur will probably not happened if there is a Nazgul countering followers in play.
An ability which allows to heal a Nazgul seems too dangerous with their powerful powers. A specific Nazgul who prevents wounds is neither really attractive.
So, the Shadow player has to choose between using the ability of the Nazgul and exhaust it (vulnerable to wounds) or not use it. That's why the abilities of Nertea and Lemenya must be really powerful. We can exchange Nazguls' abilities between them.
I don't know for Otsea (it would be a too complicated text for players), maybe a way to take in hand an Orc from your discard pile? Or test will tell us if it's good with the current ability?
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After a rewatch of DoS, I think I forget the duel between Smaug and Bilbo with the One Ring. So I propose:
3x • Dragon's Malice : Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. While Bilbo wears the One Ring, he takes no more than 1 wound during each skirmish phase. Each time Smaug wins a skirmish, the Free Peoples player must choose to either exert Bilbo twice or add a doubt.
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After a rewatch of DoS, I think I forget the duel between Smaug and Bilbo with the One Ring. So I propose:
3x • Dragon's Malice : Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. While Bilbo wears the One Ring, he takes no more than 1 wound during each skirmish phase. Each time Smaug wins a skirmish, the Free Peoples player must choose to either exert Bilbo twice or add a doubt.
I like it, will give a stronger representation. Seems well balanced as Bilbo will be taking exertions or wounds, plus the needed doubt cost of wearing the Ring. The benefit for the FP player will give him/her less reasons to remove it if the Shadow player plays it from the start, which is a side benefit to consider. :up:
Ok, we will let the Pack I as it is ;).
Nice! I like each card as it is. Now Pack I needs only 2 Shadow cards, the distribution of copies per card, and the pictures.
Do you have any idea of what Shadow card can be added? You said those cards should counter the most powerful FP cards of the Pack. The mechanisms of those FP cards are drawing, returning cards to deck or hand, healing, choking and fighting. The natural counterparts are respectively discarding from hand, discarding from deck, exerting, twilight generation and fighting.
Also, those Shadow cards must have a strong flavour in respect of the conspiration and the journey of The Quest of Erebor. Spies, enemies on the track, weather conditions, their struggle to get before Durin's Day ends.... and even Smaug himself.
I got only this by the moment, a Smaug non-culture card:
[1] •The Last Lights of Durin's Day [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
At sites 1 to 7, this condition may not be discarded and at the end of each turn during which the fellowship did not move more than once, add a doubt.
Shadow: Remove a doubt to add [2] and make the Free Peoples player discard a card from hand.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
The Company must move quickly, if they stay too long the Quest will be in peril; having stopping power will give you more than just a movement advantage. This card turns doubts into twilight for minions and into discarded cards from the Company's plans, to depict the Company being pressed to move with bold haste instead of clever stealth. A limit might be added to the twilight addition if it's too powerful with many doubts being removed at the same site, like "Remove a doubt to add [2] (limit [5]) and make..." .
It's better to use those doubts before site 7, or this card might be discarded (adding a limit will force the use of doubts in each site). The discard protection is there due to it works better from the start of the game, must remain on the board to be effective, and being unique makes it too vulnerable to FP condition control. The Prancing Pony and A Chance Meeting can get Ancestral Knowledge, but will be useless before reaching Erebor.
Nazguls
A good protection for the [Wraith] condition could be:
3x Dol Guldur Blade :
Cost (1). [Wraith] Possession • Hand Weapon.
Strength +2. Bearer must be a [Wraith] minion. When you play this possession, add [3].
Maneuver: Discard an Orc from hand to play a [Wraith] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
I like that change. Besides protecting your condition, you can play it sooner and even arm another Nazgul. I like the twilight addition too (it's the cost of Goblin Footman, that's smart). :up:
Now, Dol Guldur Blade requires 3 things to work: 1. a Nazgul in play to bear it, 2. it must be played from hand or you must play Goblin Footman from any location, and 3. you must have one or more Orcs in hand to use the skill. It's very powerful, but will be useless if you don't have a Nazgul first or if you deplete too fast the Orcs in your hand/draw deck.
To solve the first issue you have He Is Summoning His Servants, but to solve the second there is nothing. Therefore, might be good to add a skill to another [Wraith] card to return Orcs to draw deck or hand. Moreover, if you use your idea of Dol Guldur Blade playing any [Wraith] card, using that skill too much will easily leave you with very few Orcs at the late game.
The Witch King and Toldea have 3 free lines to add a skill (preserving their lore text), even Attea has 3 lines (but then his lore text will suffer). I'm thinking in skills like "Regroup: Exert a Nazgul to place an Orc from your discard pile on top of your draw deck" (3 lines) or "Regroup: Exert a Nazgul to take an Orc from your discard pile into hand" (2 lines). Both limit your cycling potential, so overusing any of them will be very counterproductive.
All the problems about the twilight cost of the Nazguls will be refined after a first test. We will first test all the new mechanics of this Shadow. Btw you can bring in play any Nazgul from your draw deck with the Dol Guldur Blade (really powerful at site 2 with TrollShaw Forest).
That's alright. My point about a twilight reduction text is that in the Hobbit Draft Game most minions are cheaper for their power (even Smaug) and most have a much lower site number than in LOTR TCG. Nazguls here must have a strong counterbalance to that site number rise.
You are right, the Nazguls are now vulnerable to Kili, but direct wounds is a way to counter them. Moreover, all the problems with Bifur will probably not happened if there is a Nazgul countering followers in play.
An ability which allows to heal a Nazgul seems too dangerous with their powerful powers. A specific Nazgul who prevents wounds is neither really attractive.
So, the Shadow player has to choose between using the ability of the Nazgul and exhaust it (vulnerable to wounds) or not use it. That's why the abilities of Nertea and Lemenya must be really powerful. We can exchange Nazguls' abilities between them.
You are right, exerting your Nazguls makes them vulnerable to easy killing and that's a good cost :up:.
Some Nazguls can be countered by direct pre-skirmish wounding (Kili, Burning Fir Cones); those are Cantea, Nertea and Lemenya. Cantea and Nertea can even be countered by skirmish wounding, directed (Dawn Take You All, Bilbo's Pony) or not (losing a skirmish), if the condition removal happens at skirmish or regroup (Bifur, Sting, An Accorn). But Enquea, Nelya and Otsea can't be countered at all because they act at the start of maneuver, you don't have a moment to wound them first. So their power must be balanced with that privilege of being unblockable, having also a high vitality.
Yes, an ability to heal them can be very dangerous, unless the cost is respectively very high. I agree that isn't attractive to have such skill on a specific Nazgul, but perhaps will be right on He Is Summoning His Servants, something like "Skirmish: Remove [3] to heal a Nazgul" (1 card line), like Not Easily Destroyed. Or at regroup instead. I don't believe it's necessary but having such option can be useful to prevent double moves, and I think it will add to the flavour of playing with undead, unkillable Kings and Sorcerers.
I don't know for Otsea (it would be a too complicated text for players), maybe a way to take in hand an Orc from your discard pile? Or test will tell us if it's good with the current ability?
Playtesting is always a good approach :up:. The point about Otsea is he acts after Shadow (like all Nazguls here), and [Wraith] cards are playable only at Shadow phase. So returning an Orc from discard pile can be a good option to get directly something useful to use that turn :up:.
Now, such a skill will be too powerful for a repeatable Response action (with Otsea's vitality), feeding the skills of Dol Guldur Blade, the Witch King, Attea and Toldea. So I'd change it to an "each time" skill: "Each time the Free Peoples player transfers a follower, you may exert Ulaire Otsea to take an Orc from your discard pile into your hand."
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I change this card, there were too many lines on the card.
3x • Dragon's Malice : Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. While Bilbo wears the One Ring, he cannot take wounds. Each time Smaug wins a skirmish, the Free Peoples player must choose to either exert Bilbo twice or add a doubt.
The first sentence of this new card is a bit too complicated. In order to counter all the boosts and use the twilight pool given by the events and the possessions, I propose this:
• The Last Lights of Durin's Day : Cost (1). [No culture] Condition • Support area. At the end of each turn, you may exert a companion if the fellowship didn't move more than once this turn. Skirmish: Remove [2] to make an Orc strength +2 (limit +4).
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
I don't think a non-discard ability is necessary for this condition (it's strong enough).
The change for [Wraith] card is enough to bring back the condition before all [Wraith] conditions get discarded too soon. There will be a lot of ways to play an Orc from discard pile and use it with He Is Summoning His Servants.
Deckbuilding for the Nazguls Shadow will include a lot of Orcs in order to bring use the no-twilight cost abilities of the Nazguls.
I will first test without healing abilities, but if the double move is too easy for the FP player I will change it.
Ok for this new Otsea, but I prefer a Response ability (to really avoid any transfer of followers):
1x • Ulaire Ostea, Revived:
Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3.
Fierce. The site number of each [Wraith] minion is -3.
Response: If the Free Peoples player transfers a follower, exert Ulaire Otsea to take an Orc from your discard pile into hand.
PS: I watched the Extended Edition of BotFA (btw, there is nothing really interesting to add in the game), but I change the picture of Narya.
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I change this card, there were too many lines on the card.
3x • Dragon's Malice : Cost (0). [No culture] Condition • Support area. While Bilbo wears the One Ring, he cannot take wounds. Each time Smaug wins a skirmish, the Free Peoples player must choose to either exert Bilbo twice or add a doubt.
Seems too powerful for the FP player, in absense of Smaug it'll only clog your hand or help Bilbo. I think it's fine, BUT must work only when you can spot Smaug: "If you can spot Smaug, Bilbo cannot take wounds while wearing the One Ring. Each time Smaug wins a skirmish, the Free Peoples player must choose to either exert Bilbo twice or add a doubt." Those should be only 5 lines.
The first sentence of this new card is a bit too complicated. In order to counter all the boosts and use the twilight pool given by the events and the possessions, I propose this:
• The Last Lights of Durin's Day : Cost (1). [No culture] Condition • Support area. At the end of each turn, you may exert a companion if the fellowship didn't move more than once this turn. Skirmish: Remove [2] to make an Orc strength +2 (limit +4).
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
I don't think a non-discard ability is necessary for this condition (it's strong enough).
I'm not really convinced about The Last Lights, I just posted the only complete idea I had at the moment. I agree, it's a bit complicated and it'll need some fix if the original idea happens to remain. The effect at the end of the turn should be only until site 7 (they need to reach the Mountain soon but then they can stay), and I wanted to add doubts to show them slowly and progressively abandoning their hope if they move too slow. Perhaps a doubt and a direct exertion will be better.
I don't think it should help only Orcs, Spiders got a lot of help from the Company's hurry. So it should help Spiders too, or any minion. But that might be too much with Smaug or Nazguls. What about pumping any non-unique minion?
This version should be easier to understand:
[1] •The Last Lights of Durin's Day [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
Shadow or Regroup: Remove [2] to play this condition from your discard pile.
At sites 1 to 7, at the end of each turn during which the fellowship moved only once, add a doubt and exert a companion.
Shadow: Remove a doubt to add [2] and exert an unwounded companion.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
By paying the strong cost of 3 twilight, can replay itself at the right moment (at Shadow to convert doubts into twilight, or at Regroup just before the FP player decides if stays or moves). The "at the end of the turn" skill remains from 1 to 7, but now exerts a companion besides adding a doubt. The Shadow skill doesn't discard cards from hand (it was too long, had to cut a line there) but now exerts unwounded companions. So it's now a grind, doubt and twilight machine, which can help Beatdown, Swarm and even Corruption decks.
The change for [Wraith] card is enough to bring back the condition before all [Wraith] conditions get discarded too soon. There will be a lot of ways to play an Orc from discard pile and use it with He Is Summoning His Servants.
Deckbuilding for the Nazguls Shadow will include a lot of Orcs in order to bring use the no-twilight cost abilities of the Nazguls.
I will first test without healing abilities, but if the double move is too easy for the FP player I will change it.
Ok for this new Otsea, but I prefer a Response ability (to really avoid any transfer of followers):
1x • Ulaire Ostea, Revived:
Cost (4). [Wraith] minion. Nazgûl. Site 5. Strength 9, Vitality 3.
Fierce. The site number of each [Wraith] minion is -3.
Response: If the Free Peoples player transfers a follower, exert Ulaire Otsea to take an Orc from your discard pile into hand.
I agree totally. :up: The healing skill may be related to the FP player moving twice: "Each time the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, you may heal each Nazgul", although that uses 2 card lines.
PS: I watched the Extended Edition of BotFA (btw, there is nothing really interesting to add in the game), but I change the picture of Narya.
The new picture is very cool! I still don't watch it, but I feel the funeral part might give a new site 9 to add.
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Ok I changed Smaug for your version.
The condition is easier to understand but far too dense and long. We need a more playable card:
- with a maximum of one sentence with a passive ability and one sentence with an actve ability (maximum 5 lines for all)
- without any 'or' or 'and', the goal of a card must be immediatly read.
I propose:
• The Last Lights of Durin's Day : Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area.
You may exert a [Dwarven] companion at the end of each turn during which the fellowship didn't move more than once.
Shadow: Heal a [Dwarven] companion to play this condition from your discard pile.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
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I'm really sorry for this long absense. I've been very busy and stressed.
You made some changes to the add-ons. Crown of Erebor and The King is Dead are really cool! :up: :up: :up: Anyway, I'd make some small changes.
- The King Is Dead is too Thorin-specific. I'd make instead something to weaken any character with a vitality equal or lower than the number of killed persons (to show them succumbing to grief and guilt). The maneuver skill is very good, I wouldn't change a bit of it.
[2] •Such A High Cost [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
While there are X cards in the dead pile, each companion or ally whose vitality is X or less is strength -2.
Maneuver: If you cannot spot Thorin, discard this condition to add 2 doubts.
"'But alas! Thorin did not live to enjoy his triumph or his treasure.'"
I changed the title, and the lore text too.
The higher the death toll, the stronger (and unexerted) a heart will have to be to stand tall in such a butchery of poor souls. Coincidentally, Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin have the strongest hearts AND vitalities of the Free Peoples. But merely exerting them (with 1 or 2 dead guys) will be enough to make them much weaker... and even if they are fully healed, weakening the smaller guys will bring a chain of weakness that at some point will have to reach them if the Shadow player harvest it.
Your maneuver skill is really good. If played again each site with Danger Wrapped in Shadows, for [5] twilight you will be able to add 2 doubts. But that's a very high cost and is a predictable and fragile combo (and requires to kill Thorin in the first place). So it's OK in my opinion.
- Jail: The new version seems much better. But I found a little problem with the last line. "Copies of stacked characters cannot be played" has a universal effect, so Goblins stacked on Goblin Swarms won't be playable. That can be solved easily by changing it to "Copies of characters stacked here..."
That's all I can write right now, I don't have more time by now :(. But I'll try to post some things soon, about Crown of Erebor, The Last Lights of Durin's Day and other cards...
Hope you are fine and in peace, my good friend.
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Hello Durin's Heir,
Sorry for this long absence, but I had a lot of work. I got back in the Hobbit Game only 2 days ago: we made a tournament yesterday (only 4 players this time).
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
- Jail : Well done ;).
- Such a High Cost : I change the first part, I hope you like the new version. In most of your games with Wargs or Bolg Shadow, Gandalf and Bilbo take most of the indirect wounds. So I will try to change this situation with this new ability.
I also change other cards :
- The Orc Army and Orkish Purser (too strong with Wargs Shadow).
- Simpler Shadow Ring of Thror (same as Saruman's Staff).
- New Stone Giants. FP player tends to kill some companions and replace them with new ones.
- New The Carrock. The Wizard Staff was too hard to play.
I hope you're all right.
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Hello Durin's Heir,
Sorry for this long absence, but I had a lot of work. I got back in the Hobbit Game only 2 days ago: we made a tournament yesterday (only 4 players this time).
I too have been very busy lately. I'm glad you're back into the project, hope I can help you without my usual delays and absences.
- Jail : Well done ;).
:up: 8-)
- Such a High Cost : I change the first part, I hope you like the new version. In most of your games with Wargs or Bolg Shadow, Gandalf and Bilbo take most of the indirect wounds. So I will try to change this situation with this new ability.
Not bad at all. Redistributing wounds to chastise a specific annoying Dwarf seems great.
But I'd prefer, if is possible to make a good and simple skill, a skill related to the number of cards in the dead pile. To show the weight of carrying The Quest further in despite of those who were killed because of it... men and women, young and old; and Thorin, Fili and Kili of course. Do you remember that eldery lady that tries to hide from Smaug's flames behind a wooden pillar? (0:03:09 in both versions of the BotFA.) That's the feeling I want to portray.
(You might even use that old lady's picture for this card, although the maneuver action would lose its connection to the picture...)
Perhaps something like this: "While you can spot X cards in the dead pile, each [Dwarven] companion (except Thorin) is strength -X (limit -3)." That excludes Gandalf (strong heart), Bilbo (would be too vulnerable) and Thorin (he's too obsessed with his mission). But the other Dwarves feel horrible and weep instead of fighting...
- The Orc Army and Orkish Purser (too strong with Wargs Shadow).
Totally agree! :up:
- Simpler Shadow Ring of Thror (same as Saruman's Staff).
I like it a lot! Sauron needed a damage bonus so badly (even [Sauron] Azog and Bolg have one), and that bonus will absorb the vitality bonus of the Staff if Gandalf faces him. =D>
- New Stone Giants. FP player tends to kill some companions and replace them with new ones.
I like it. But there is a thing that worries me a bit. That wording is open to confusion, some players might think that you can exert the same companion once for each card in the dead pile... this should solve that issue: "Maneuver: Discard this condition and spot X cards in the dead pile to exert X companions."
- New The Carrock. The Wizard Staff was too hard to play.
Do you mean the Staff is hard to play, because it gets discarded at site 5 along with Gandalf? Then it might spot any [Gandalf] artifact, to include Glamdring and even Narya. Now, that new mechanic doesn't fit the flavor of The Carrock (which is related to Beorn, Eagles and perhaps Radagast). You can change its name and picture to "Beorn's House" to solve that problem.
If you use this site's ability and move to Dol Guldur, you'll be forced to exert 3 companions (it'll be the only option left). If you replace "to make Gandalf unable to be discarded" with "to prevent Gandalf from being discarded", you'll be able to choose to discard Gandalf but then that will be prevented. (That doesn't mean you can use Friend of Thorin's wounding skill with no limits, its cost will be prevented so the effect will be cancelled.)
A last thing: being only a Fellowship action, it forces you to stay at site 4. If you change it to a "Fellowship or Regroup" action (like Pathfinder), you'll be able to keep Gandalf if you double move...
Beorn's House
Site 4 Shadow Number 4
Forest. Fellowship or Regroup: Spot a [Gandalf] artifact to prevent Gandalf from being discarded until the end of the turn.
I hope you're all right.
I'm alright after all, thanks! The same I wish for you, my friend!
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- Crown of Erebor: I like a lot this card's goals :up:. Anyway, there are some little changes I'd make:
1.- The twilight cost is too low. If the Kingdom under the Mountain is restored, that should be in the top news of every culture's newspaper. (In the book, that's part of the reason why the Goblins attack the Mountain, while its gold is still vulnerable.) [3] would be much better.
2.- Dáin isn't a good replacement for Thorin, mainly because he can't bear followers (the only thing he can bear is a Dwarven Spear). So I'd add a line to make Dáin strength +2, or to make [Dwarven] allies may bear [Dwarven] followers.
3.- Thorin and Dáin were reinforced by any exiled Dwarf that joined them, and not merely by Roäc and the allies he could summon (like when Kili, Fili and Bofur joined them at Erebor). And the other Dwarf companions were rejoiced too. So I'd change the healing line, to heal only 1 Dwarf character, but each time you play any [Dwarven] follower. That would give more uses to To Me, O My Kinsfolk, and make it more attractive when drafting.
The assignment line seems perfect. Dáin and the Iron Hills Army will fight if Thorin dies (or if you insanely don't pack him in your deck, or play him at the start!). But they won't take arrows, which seems very balanced.
[3] •Crown of Erebor [Dwarven]
Artifact • Support Area
[Dwarven] followers may be borne by [Dwarven] allies.
Each time you play a [Dwarven] follower, you may heal a [Dwarven] character.
Assignment: If you cannot spot Thorin, [Dwarven] allies may participate in skirmishes.
A last thing. When beheaded at the Dimrill Dale in the film, Thrór was wearing a golden crown identical to this crown. Much later, Thorin finds this one after recovering Erebor. Perhaps we might make another Crown with a different card title, to be borne by Thorin and give him some skills (and discard it to "remove a doubt" or so, as he does before joining the Battle of the Five Armies)... That, of course, would be in another Pack or Extension.
(I made one time ago, posted it here (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg90105.html#msg90105) as "Thrór's Raven Crown")
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Ok I change Such a High Cost for your version.
Same thing for Stone Giants.
Ok for the Beorn's House, sounds better. But I want to keep the ability only with [Gandalf] staff in order to make the [Gandalf] staff really important, and useful. Moreover, if the Gandalf can avoid too easily his discard of the site 5, all the Gandalf characters could be unbalanced (the undiscarded one will be useless).
For the Crown of Erebor, ok I will keep in mind your idea of the Thrór's crown. I only change the cost of the card, I think Roac must be really important (with King Under the Mountain !!!), and you're right I still want a more attractive To Me, O My Kinsfolk ;).
If Thorin is dead, the Dwarves are in bad shape. So I don't want another big Thorin-like in the company. Only a standard Dwarf character.
Thank you a lot for your answer. I also change the Azog's Mace to use the wounds on Bilbo.
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Ok I change Such a High Cost for your version.
:up:. It's both very powerful and very costly. And Bilbo isn't affected, so he still can ditch it with Sting + a [Dwarven] event to help his friends. Then Danger Wrapped in Shadows can get it back... I believe it's balanced.
Same thing for Stone Giants.
:up:
Ok for the Beorn's House, sounds better. But I want to keep the ability only with [Gandalf] staff in order to make the [Gandalf] staff really important, and useful. Moreover, if the Gandalf can avoid too easily his discard of the site 5, all the Gandalf characters could be unbalanced (the undiscarded one will be useless).
Seems fine. Gandalf Leader of the Company has the same problem with Narya's response action (redundancy), so it's a good idea to allow more loose ends instead of such an easy protection. :up:
Talking about Staves... you specified "[Gandalf] staff". That reminds me that there were at least 2 other staves in the films that weren't a Wizard Staff: [Dwarven] Óin's fighting staff, and [Shire] Bilbo's walking stick. We might develop those into new cards.
For the Crown of Erebor, ok I will keep in mind your idea of the Thrór's crown. I only change the cost of the card, I think Roac must be really important (with King Under the Mountain !!!), and you're right I still want a more attractive To Me, O My Kinsfolk ;).
If Thorin is dead, the Dwarves are in bad shape. So I don't want another big Thorin-like in the company. Only a standard Dwarf character.
Cool for the potential of a Thrór's Crown card! ;D
Hmmm, you are right, Dáin shouldn't be so powerful as Thorin, due to both flavor and game imbalances. But if Thorin is dead/absent, then the Company will answer to Dáin's command, and as such he should be able to bear followers like Óin or Bombur. Keep in mind those followers won't be new resources, but the same old resources The Company must share (often no more than 3 Dwarf followers due to Orkish Marauder; the pack provides only Roäc as a non-Dwarf follower). So a follower that goes to Dáin, is a follower that doesn't go to help Bilbo, Dwalin, Kili...
I agree that the Iron Hills Army might be too strong if is allowed to bear [Dwarven] followers (str 9 -or 11 with a spear-, dmg+1, PLUS followers...). But Dáin's attributes are a bit weak, and lacks a damage bonus... he's too different from the Dáin made by PJ/Billy Connolly who knocked out Orcs much larger than he with only his bare forehead.
So I'd try with this proposal:
[3] •Crown of Erebor [Dwarven]
Artifact • Support Area
Dain Ironfoot may bear [Dwarven] followers.
Each time you play Roäc, you may heal a [Dwarven] ally and a [Dwarven] companion.
Assignment: If you cannot spot Thorin, [Dwarven] allies may participate in skirmishes.
3 twilight, followers on Dain only, and Roäc only healing an ally and a companion of your choice. Dáin will be "only a standard Dwarf character" as you said, not more powerful that Balin.
I also change the Azog's Mace to use the wounds on Bilbo.
That's interesting. The skill of the Mace was a bit redundant with that of Azog Servant of Sauron. I think it's ok. Besides, Azog menaced Bilbo at the Wooded Cliff, seems representative of that part. I wonder if it's OP with a mount to boost Azog's vitality. But besides that, :up:.
There's a wording mistake. Azog's Mace is a possession, so the Regroup action must say "Exert bearer" instead of "Exert this minion". That's all.
Thank you a lot for your answer.
Makes me glad to help you with this project. ;)
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The Last Lights of Durin's Day: The condition is easier to understand but far too dense and long. We need a more playable card:
- with a maximum of one sentence with a passive ability and one sentence with an actve ability (maximum 5 lines for all)
- without any 'or' or 'and', the goal of a card must be immediatly read.
I propose:
• The Last Lights of Durin's Day : Cost (2). [No culture] Condition • Support area.
You may exert a [Dwarven] companion at the end of each turn during which the fellowship didn't move more than once.
Shadow: Heal a [Dwarven] companion to play this condition from your discard pile.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
- The Last Lights of Durin's Day: Hmmm, exerting a Dwarf companion doesn't make much sense to me, this card should push for doubts. And should do something with those doubts. The replaying skill looks fabulous, but the phase doesn't fit I think... Let me explain in further detail:
1.- This condition MUST be related to doubts. The more doubts, the less likely they will risk their necks in a long dangerous journey, just to pass the Front Gate and wake a fire-breathing Dragon. Something like The Ring Draws Them: "Each time the fellowship moves, add [1] for each doubt you can spot".
Thorin: "This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
2.- The punishment for not moving twice MUST add doubts (at least). If they don't move fast enough, they just won't reach Erebor at time. They know it too well and worries them so much.
Kili: "And if we do not? If we fail to find the hidden door before that time?"
Fili: "Then this Quest has been for nothing."
3.- The moving punishment must apply until site 7 only. They were very hurried to get to Erebor but not further. After passing the Secret Door they were very stealthy (to not wake the Dragon); after Smaug's death they didn't even want to move at all from their reclaimed realm, moreover when the Siege of Erebor begun.
Thorin: "It means, master Baggins, you should never underestimate Dwarves. We have reclaimed Erebor. Now we defend it.
4.- The replaying skill must work at Regroup. Just before it triggers, to maintain The Company under pressure of double moving. I really love your healing replaying-cost, it's a magnificent idea, feels like they have a second wind, forced by their Royal responsability of restoring Durin's Folk's ancient glory. But should be a Regroup action, not a Shadow one, to keep the pressure AND to reap the twilight made by doubts at the next Shadow phase (this turn or the next).
[2] •The Last Lights of Durin's Day [No culture]
Condition • Support area
Each time the fellowship moves, add [1] for each doubt you can spot.
At sites 1 to 7, at the end of each turn in which the fellowship didn't move more than once, add a doubt and exert Thorin.
Regroup: Heal a [Dwarven] companion to play this condition from your discard pile.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
Some parts can be changed without problems. "And exert Thorin" can be removed (as you didn't want to include any "or" or "and"), and the Regroup skill might heal 2 [Dwarven] companions if it's too powerful. The twilight addition can have a limit, there's enough space in that line.
I know those are 2 passive skills + 1 active. But both passive work with doubts, so the purpose shouldn't be hard to understand; can also be considered as 2 parts of the same skill (one sows, the other reaps). And the active skill is really plain to understand, just keeps the condition on the board.
Those are 8 card lines (7 game text + 1 lore). But it's a Smaug non-culture card, those cards can have 8 lines without any problem. Hope you like it.
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Ok, I correct the Azog's Mace and I change the Beorn's House for a simpler version to use (I wasn't sure if the FP player has many chances to get the Wizard Staff before site 4).
Your version of the Corwn of Erebor seems too powerful, if you can heal any [Dwarven] ally and any [Dwarven] companion by playing Roäc, you will have some insane combos (with Thorin ability and To Me O My Kinsfolk) to heal many wounds as you want. If the healing ability is only focused on 2 characters, we will avoid this.
Dain is as strong as Balin and Dwalin without followers. For the game, I think 2 participating allies for each remaining site are strong enough.
The cost of the Crown is now the same as the cost of the Arkenstone.
Sorry, but I want to first test this version of the Crown before changing it.
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I'd like to hear what you think about that last suggestion for The Last Lights of Durin's Day.
...
Ok, I correct the Azog's Mace and I change the Beorn's House for a simpler version to use (I wasn't sure if the FP player has many chances to get the Wizard Staff before site 4).
:up: for both! Beorn's House looks very good. As a phase action, you can play more than 1 staff if you have 2 on the deck + Radagast/Saruman on the board. I think that's a good side effect. Players must beware only of not playing all staves before reaching Site 4, otherwise a staff played on Gandalf at sites 1 to 3 will be discarded along with him.
Your version of the Crown of Erebor seems too powerful, if you can heal any [Dwarven] ally and any [Dwarven] companion by playing Roäc, you will have some insane combos (with Thorin ability and To Me O My Kinsfolk) to heal many wounds as you want. If the healing ability is only focused on 2 characters, we will avoid this.
Hmmm, you are right, healing an ally and a companion is too strong. Perhaps healing only 1 [Dwarven] character, when playing that specific unique follower... that way Roäc's skills would be: 1. play a Dwarf ally; 2. make a Dwarf ally fight; and now 3. play him to heal a Dwarf.
To Me! O My Kinsfolk! is as situational as any other event, and there won't be many copies in the deck. This freedom of healing gives that event much more usefulness and versatility.
Dain is as strong as Balin and Dwalin without followers. For the game, I think 2 participating allies for each remaining site are strong enough.
The cost of the Crown is now the same as the cost of the Arkenstone.
Hmmm, yes, he's as strong as the sons of Fundin, but unlike Dwalin he lacks damage bonus. And the Dwarven Spears will be used by Dwalin, Balin or the Iron Hills Army before reaching Dain's hands. There are very little minions with strength less than 7, so Dain will lose all skirmishes without bearing followers, save for those few copies of Battle Fury. All in all, he doesn't seem as Tolkien's Dain (who defeated Azog), nor as PJ's Dain, that's all.
For flavor's sake, I'd add a line to either make "Dain Ironfoot may bear [Dwarven] followers", or "Dain Ironfoot is strength +1".
Sorry, but I want to first test this version of the Crown before changing it.
Ok, that's exactly what Galileo would suggest. :up: ;)
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- The Shadow Arkenstone: The last version doesn't convince me (it should work by the old "Divide and Rule"), though it has some good points. You mentioned (months ago) that a strength reduction makes clear it is a Shadow card and not a FP one. Agree, so incorpored that point. The same about a resistance bonus being unimportant. You also said it must be simple, and this new proposal is simpler than all my previous ones:
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Strength -1
Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer is Thorin, Elves and Men are strength -3; otherwise, Bilbo and all [Dwarven] characters are strength -1.
Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to this character".
"'What is that? In your hand... Show me!'"
Not limited to "sites 7 to 9". I think it's much easier to understand. It says directly what consequences will be in each case.
So if bearer is:
1) Bilbo: All Dwarves are strength -1. Bilbo is strength -2
2) Bard: All Dwarves are strength -1. Bilbo is strength -1. Bard is strength -1. +2 doubts.
3) Thorin: Thorin is strength -1. Elves and Men are strength -3! +2 doubts.
1) Bilbo: He'll have huge overwhelming risks with that strength -2 (-1 for bearing it, -1 for not being borne by Thorin). His companions will also suffer a strength -1, helping Beatdown and Grind shadows.
2) Bard: Same as above, except that Bilbo gets less overwhelming risk (but Thorin still wants to cast him out from the barricade!), and Thorin becomes Bard's enemy, so -1 strength to Bard. And the coruption risk of those 2 doubts added by the way.
3) Thorin: Of all companions, only he will be strength -1. But Elves and Men lose all negotiation potential and won't help or will be destroyed (only Thranduil won't be easily overwhelmed; cards like Bolg SoS and Such a High Cost will feast on dead allies). The Company is all by itself. And with 2 doubts more.
In any of those 3 cases, Thorin will be strength -1, and that's always good for the Shadow player.
Hope you like.
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On less important matters:
- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: This card has still 1 free line for another skill (while keeping the lore text). Each time Sauron got back a Ring of Power, his servants started gathering again and his schemes moved much faster. That can be represented by a small skill like "Shadow: Play a minion to add [1]", which would be very useful with any Shadow (moreover with Nazguls, by playing either a Nazgul or an Orc to discard). And with The Great Enemy.
Any skill on the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór will be a 2-card combo (requires to play Sauron + the Ring) that won't stay on the board (support area), and this skill uses only minions from hand, so it can't be abused. Also, adding another skill will differentiate this artifact from Decipher's Saruman's Staff. A bit of originality will be welcomed by many a player.
- Such A High Cost: I found some good Tolkien quotes you might find interesting for this card's lore text. Each of these uses a maximum of 3 card lines, which is the room left by the game text.
- from Unfinished Tales:
"'But alas! Thorin did not live to enjoy his triumph or his treasure.'"
- from The Hobbit:
"'I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed... I leave now all gold and silver, and go where it is of little worth...'"
"Bilbo knelt on one knee filled with sorrow. 'Farewell, King under the Mountain!' he said."
"'This is a bitter adventure, if it must end so; and not a mountain of gold can amend it.'"
"Then Bilbo turned away, and he went by himself, and sat alone wrapped in a blanket, and... he wept until his eyes were red and his voice was hoarse."
"'A mercy it is,' he said at last to himself, 'that I woke up when I did. I wish Thorin were living, but I am glad that we parted in kindness.'"
"And turning towards the Mountain he added: 'Farewell Thorin Oakenshield! And Fili and Kili! May your memory never fade!'"
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- Wizard Staff: You're right the Staff must not be played before site 4, but the effect of the Staff is powerful. I think most players will keep their Staff in hand until site 4 (except for Gandallf FoT or Gandalf LotC).
- Crown of Erebor: I know you will add some flavor for Dain Ironfoot on this card ;). But I want only useful effects, the strength +1 bonus for Dain seems not so useful.
With the Hobbit Draft Game Online now, you may test this card ;).
- [Smaug] The Arkenstone: I don't think the transfer to Bard is a true advantage (only Bilbo strength +1 and 2 more doubts...). Sure, you can kill Bard and discard the Arkenstone, but Bard can only fight site 6 if you have no other [Esgaroth] card or Skillful negociator...
I prefer the current version (the 4 doubts ability is the transfer to Bard or another ally, and he keeps it without any modification on the fellowship or himself).
- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: You are right. I will change it with this new line:
The twilight cost of each [Ringwraith] minion is -1.
Sauron and the Nazguls are very hard to play together. With such reduction, I hope it will be different....
- Such A High Cost: Ok for a 2 lines, which one your prefer ? ;)
- Azog Swarm: with the Hobbit Draft Game Online, I think we will need a keyword for this Shadow. Indeed, in order to avoid the mixing with Goblin Swarm, it seems necessary.
I still owe you The Last Lights of Durin's Day review. But I was very busy, and the Hobbit Draft Game Online also took me a lot of time.
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- !Wizard Staff: Agree. :up:
- [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: Hmmm, quite interesting! :up: It's focused on Nazguls only, but that way you avoid having 2 active skills in the same card. And avoids powerful combos with Orc Swarm shadows. Seems fine! Now, you can change it a bit to allow other [Sauron] minions like Azog SoS or Bolg SoS to get that twilight reduction: "Each [Wraith] or [Sauron] minion is twilight cost -1." Not necessary at all, but can be better. :up:
- Crown of Erebor: I think +1 strenght IS useful. The current Dain (unarmed) can only defeat Narzug, Yazneg and !Orkish Aggressor. That's too weak. But if Dain is base strength 8 he will be able to:
* Defeat strength 7 minions (Wicked Spider, Assaulting Goblin, !Orkish Veteran). Thus he'll need less healing.
* Not be overwhelmed by str 14/15 minions: Witch King, Sauron, Smaug (with Smaug's Awakening), Toldea + !Dol Guldur Blade, [Troll] Trolls + Troll Knife...
* Be worthy of bearing a Dwarven Spear, instead of giving it to Dwalin/Balin/Nori (strength 10 beats a lot more minions than strength 9; those companions can use followers instead).
Now, healing ANY Dwarf character is a helpful effect. And given that To Me! O My Kinsfolk! hasn't too many copies and is a 2-card combo (you need Roäc in play or discard pile), it'll be hard to abuse it.
- Such A High Cost: :) There are 3 available lines. But if we are using only 2, I like this one: "'Farewell, good thief... I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed...'"
When reading The Hobbit some 12 or 13 years ago, I couln't help but cry with that part :'(.
- The Shadow Arkenstone: You are totally right, Thorin Pack has no way of making Bard skirmish at other sites. What limits this card is having it in a specific FP Pack. If it were in the Smaug Pack instead, it would punish heavily any of these packs: Mirkwood, Esgaroth and White Council (Galadriel strength 0?!). And in any other case, it'd at least weaken Bilbo and Dwarves, and potentially add 2 dangerous doubts.
In those FP Packs, the FP player would be forced to use either "weak companions + viable allies", or "strong companions + weak allies". The point is, with those packs you tend to use allies AND companions to defend yourself, and you'll now be forced to choose one or the other. That, if the Shadow Arkenstone is relocated to Smaug's Pack.
Then we'd need to decide how to add The Shadow Arkenstone into Smaug's Pack. Perhaps removing 2 or 3 copies of other cards, or removing all copies of a card and relocating it to Thorin's Pack...
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- The Shadow Arkenstone: I made another version after posting the latter, slightly different but much better. It makes more attractive to transfer it to Bard.
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Strength -2
Plays on Bilbo. Bearer is damage +1.
If bearer is Bard, he is strength +3 and [Dwarven] characters are strength -2. If bearer is Thorin, Elves and Men are strength -3.
Bilbo, Bard and Thorin gain this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone to this character".
"'What is that? In your hand... Show me!'"
Bearer gains damage +1, showing the fierce defensiveness and wrath The Arkenstone produces on anyone who holds it. So if bearer is:
1) Bilbo: Bilbo is strength -2 (and damage +1).
2) Bard: All Dwarves are strength -2. Bard is strength +1 (and damage +1). +2 doubts.
3) Thorin: Thorin is strength -2 (and damage +1). Elves and Men are strength -3. +2 doubts.
1) Bilbo: He keeps the Arkenstone as a total secret (dwarves don't get affected), but suffers a strong pressure from deciding what to do with it. Again, -2 strength makes him VERY vulnerable (str 3 only with !Sting!).
2) Bard: Bilbo is now protected by Bard (no strength reduction). Bard is in a strong position (hence the strength +1). Dwarves suffer a stronger strength reduction than before (-2), so you free Bilbo from the punishment but each Dwarf takes it instead. +2 doubts also.
3) Thorin: Thorin is consumed by !greed (he's now the weakest Dwarf in the company!), but all his companions and Bilbo are relieved. Again, Elves and Men will flee or die. +2 doubts...
All in all, Thorin will be strength -2 in any case, unless Bilbo bears it and takes that str -2. And either Bilbo will get that risk, or you won't use strong [Dwarven] companions AND Elves/Men support.
Hope you like it more. This, like the previous, will work well if we move it to Smaug's Pack.
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Since the [Dwarven] Arkenstone is in the Thorin pack, I think the Shadow Arkenstone must be in the Thorin Pack.
With this new Arkenstone, the best way to counter it seems to keep it on Bilbo. I still prefer the current version of the Shadow Arkenstone.
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Since the [Dwarven] Arkenstone is in the Thorin pack, I think the Shadow Arkenstone must be in the Thorin Pack.
Currently, the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór is in the Thráin Pack, while the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór is in the Sauron Pack. They don't coincide often. And Sauron's Pack is weaker against the Thráin Pack. The same relation would be between Smaug's Pack and the Thorin Pack.
With this new Arkenstone, the best way to counter it seems to keep it on Bilbo. I still prefer the current version of the Shadow Arkenstone.
But keeping it on Bilbo means making his base strength 1 (3 with Sting, 5 if also bears and wears The One). The risk is really high if he keeps it. Orkish Aggressor/Gollum will simply destroy him! Orkish Aggressor has 3 copies in any kind of deck, so if Bilbo keeps the Arkenstone your opponent will use all his/her hand (Hatred Rekindled/Troll Campfire) and copies of Host of Thousands to abuse that. The Shadow player still gets a lot of a single card.
If Thorin gets it, he (your main fighter) gets -2 strength and Elf/Man allies get totally impaired. +2 doubts. A lot for a single card.
If Bard gets it, Dwarves have big troubles but you can still support the Company with Men/Elves. +2 doubts. Again, a lot from a single card.
So if your strategy is based on:
- Men/Elves/White Council: Not Thorin! You'll want the Arkenstone on Bard (2 doubts, Dwarves are str -2) or Bilbo (Bilbo is str -2) at all costs.
- Dwarves: Not Bard! Either Thorin (he'll lose a lot of skirmishes; +2 doubts), or Bilbo (he's str -2, can be easily overwhelmed).
- Bilbo: Not Bilbo! That means 2 doubts. Either Bard or Thorin, Smaug will feast on your defenders (Thorin won't suvive him with ease).
So you'll decide who gets it depending on what's your strategy. But also, depending on the Shadow strategy you are facing:
- Swarm: Not Bilbo, at any cost! If Bard, your companions will lose or die easily. If Thorin, you lose all durable support from allies.
- Corruption: Again, not Bilbo (or Gollum/Aggressor will devour him). But those 2 doubts must be removed with haste, or carried with wisdom. In both cases (Bard or Thorin), Thorin will lose 2 strength so you'll be more vulnerable to Fat Spider, Bolg Son of Azog and Smaug.
- Beatdown: Bilbo. You'll need Thorin (and [Dwarven] companions, and allies) will all his (their) strength. But watch out with the Aggressor!
Therefore, the combination of your strategy and your opponent's will determine which option is the less uncomfortable. A !hard choice. All paths are dangerous!
While this version gives the FP player more options to maneuver it, it works on the whole sitepath (not only at sites 7 to 9). That's very important. For instance, at site 9 it matters very little if your Elves and Men are killed (you need only Bilbo alive and not corrupted), but at region 1 or 2 it brings consequences that will remain, maiming your ally-support 'till the very end.
Again, a lot from a single card.
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I change some cards in order to counter more efficently the Free Peoples cards in their packs:
- Savage Warg: much more focused on [Gandalf] cards.
- Jail: "exert twice" now to prevent the stacking of a Wise character. It seems easier to play.
- Power Struggle: the first ability is now more powerful. The cost is [1].
- Enchanted River: more powerful now against Gandalf FoT+Radagast, the fellowship has to find a way to keep Gandalf in play.
- Such a High Cost: I hope the condition will be very useful now against [Dwarven] allies.
- Banner of Command: there were not many ways to discard the [Dwarven] Spear.
The [Sauron] Ring of Thror is not in the Thrain Pack because only Sauron can bear it. So we had to put it in the Beatdown Pack 2 with the [Sauron] Shadow.
The [Dwarven] Arkenstone is really weak. The way we found to make it much more important is to put a very powerful Shadow Arkenstone in this pack. So a way to counter this Shadow artifact is to play the [Dwarven] Arkenstone before the Shadow Arkenstone.
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- !Wizard Staff: I see a • in the title... is it unique now?!? I thought cards previously released (the FP packs without the add-ons) weren't subject to change. I don't think it's necessary to make it unique. Playing 2 on site 4 means [4] more just before site 5 (!), and the skill to fetch spells will work well only if you keep exerting Balin (double the staves, double the strain on Balin).
In respect of Beorn's House, I found a simple way to fix the hand clogging if you get the Staff before site 4: "Fellowship: Spot (or play from your draw deck) a [Gandalf] staff to prevent...". It might be a bit too long for the card room, if that's the case by removing the parenthesis should be ok ("Spot or play...").
I change some cards in order to counter more efficently the Free Peoples cards in their packs:
I think it's a good approach to enrich strategy. :up:. But in some cases can destroy the flavor of a card, in those might be better to create a totally new card and leave the flavor-rich card unchanged to use in another pack...
- Savage !Warg: I like it. :up: It's strong in both effect and (film) flavor. With the Wizard pack, the maximum [Gandalf] cards in play are 6, = up to 3 exertions (with also the White Council pack, = up to 4). So at the !end of the game you can grind the Company if you choose a strong Orc to bear it. If proves to be too powerful when playesting, you can add a site keyword requirement to trigger it: "Each time bearer wins a skirmish at a plains or a battleground...". Therefore Rhudaur, sites 9 (except Thrór's Throne) and Watchful Orc will trigger it.
- Power Struggle: Seems fine. [1] to recover a conditions is more balanced. And the passive skill replaces the previous one of Enchanted River. :up:
- Enchanted River: Seems very powerful, yes! Beorn's House can prevent only Gandalf from triggering that, but then FoT won't escape from tough skirmishes. :up:
- Such a High Cost: This is an addition only, that's good. [3] to wound an ally once doesn't seems overpowered, and sometimes that's all you needed to get your first card in the dead pile (if you got another copy, Danger Wrapped in Shadows, or Power Struggle). :up:
Now, if Thorin is dead you won't have the choice to wound or add 2 doubts (like Isengard Smith, with 5 companions discards all FP possessions but can't touch artifact weapons); you'll only add doubts. If you want it to be a choice, change it to this: "Discard this condition to choose one: wound a [Dwarven] ally, or add 2 doubts if you cannot spot Thorin".
...
- Banner of Command: I don't like this change :-k. I understand and like the purpose, but the pervious version of Banner of Command was really good. I'd change the pic and title to "Orc Banner", and leave the Banner of Command to other packs. Besides, it should spot a minion/an Orc, otherwise you will be able to discard those possessions without playing any minion.
The "prevent wounds" Banner of Command can work really well in Bolg's Pack, replacing the Orkish Bow. Remove the twilight adding part, and add a skill to play it from discard, like "Shadow: Exert Azog or Bolg twice to play this condition from your discard pile". Make it cost [2]. And even change it to possession, to make it harder to discard...
[2] •Banner of Command [Moria]
Possession • Support Area
To play, exert an Orc.
Shadow: Exert Bolg or Azog twice to play this possession from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Remove [2] at a battleground to prevent an Orc from taking wounds.
- Jail: "Exert twice" is better against vitality 2 Wise fellows. But then it's too powerful with that tiny cost of discarding just a single minion (think of a Moria Swarm, oh my!). I'd raise the cost to "2 minions", and change the prevention to "that any wise character may exert twice to prevent this". That way, any other Wise character with vitality 3 or more can try to save Gandalf. Besides, think on Elrond's healing skill: if you exert him once to save Gandalf, he'll be vitality 2 so becomes a target of Jail, but even so Gandalf might pass from vitality 1 to 2 only and won't be saved! This should give them more chances:
"Regroup: Discard 2 minions to stack a Wise character on this condition. Any Wise character may exert twice to prevent this. Copies of characters stacked here cannot be played."
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- The Shadow Arkenstone: Hmmm, I think it will be ok in the Thorin pack with the [Dwarven] version. It'd be stronger in the Smaug sub-pack, because works much better against 3 different FP packs, and none of those are Thorin Pack. But even against Thorin Pack only, it will provide big problems to the Company:
- Bilbo: He'll be strength 1 without Sting (Smaug will try it!), or 3 with Sting. Then as stated before, Orkish Aggressor/Gollum will be really annoying and perilous, and every Shadow can try that :twisted:.
- Thorin: He'll be strength -2, and that's very good for any kind of Shadow (it's similar to Smaug discarding Orcrist!). And +2 doubts are powerful by themselves.
- Bard: This is no option (except you are at site 6 and can kill Bard). If you don't want Bilbo as bearer, either way Thorin will be str -2 and will add 2 doubts.
I really feel this is the right way to portray the Shadow Arkenstone. Machiavel's old divide and rule, but without the unclear wording of "non-Wise characters" and "except of bearer's culture (and [Elven] if...)".
So it's totally ok if it remains in Thorin Pack. As long as it's this version, or something with a similar flavor and strength ;). And Thorin Pack will be less compatible with Mirkwood, Esgaroth and White Council packs, that's an addition I think ;).
The [Dwarven] Arkenstone is really weak. The way we found to make it much more important is to put a very powerful Shadow Arkenstone in this pack. So a way to counter this Shadow artifact is to play the [Dwarven] Arkenstone before the Shadow Arkenstone.
I don't like cards being useful mainly as a counter to other cards, that's fine for TCGs (Stand Against Darkness, Curse From Mordor) but not here with such limited options. But we cannot (I believe) change The [Dwarven] Arkenstone :(. So it will be better at Thorin Pack. :up:
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- !Wizard Staff: I see a • in the title... is it unique now?!? I thought cards previously released (the FP packs without the add-ons) weren't subject to change. I don't think it's necessary to make it unique. Playing 2 on site 4 means [4] more just before site 5 (!), and the skill to fetch spells will work well only if you keep exerting Balin (double the staves, double the strain on Balin).
The Wizard Staff was printed with the •. I didn't change any cards previously printed and I won't ;).
Yes, I change the Beorn's House. I hope it's ok now.
- Power Struggle 2x and Terrifying Legend 3x: in order to have the same structure as Wizard Pack and Bilbo Pack.
- Stone Giants: There were too few ways to bring back conditions from the discard pile.
- Jail: Ok I change it. But 2 minions will be unplayable. The cost is now [2].
- Banner Command: Your version will be unplayable with most of the Shadows, and doesn't counter well the [Dwarven] cards in the Dain Pack. I change the discarding ability for skirmish phase.
With Banner Command and Such A High Cost, we need to manage [Dwarven] allies (in a powerful way!), [Dwarven] possessions and maybe healing on Thorin and Dain and [Dwarven] followers.
- Such A High Cost: Ok, I change the "or" for a "and".
In such draft game, we need some Shadow cards in order to counter the fellow metagame.
- Shadow Arkenstone: I try to follow your idea with only one sentence (the first ability has to be as simple as possible). I change it directly on the card.
Thank you !!!
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The Wizard Staff was printed with the •. I didn't change any cards previously printed and I won't ;).
That relieves me! :up:
- Beorn's House: :up:
- Such A High Cost: :up:
- Jail: Playtesting might be necessary. But I think it's fine. :up:
- Power Struggle 2x and Terrifying Legend 3x: :up: OK to have a uniformed copies per each "site specific" condition.
- Stone Giants: Interesting. Seems good. :up: Now, if this card meets Power Struggle, as both share the Maneuver phase you can create a loop (until twilight runs out). You'll need 2+ cards in the dead pile, and the cost will be [3] per loop plus the twilight of those conditions recovered, so that will reduce its impact. But if that still worries you (Such A High Cost, Were-worms), you can change its phase to Regroup (or anything except Maneuver and Shadow). Then the twilight cost can be reduced to compensate such change.
- Banner of Command: Actually I liked your new version's gametext. But I don't like it along with the "Banner of Command" title and picture, there's no real lore connection :(. So I'd change its title to "Orc Banner" (or "Orkish Banner", "Goblin Banner"...), and the picture should refer instead to a banner on the battlefield merely.
[1] •Banner of Command Orc Banner [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
To play, exert an Orc.
Each time the fellowship moves, add [1] for each ally you can spot.
Skirmish: Exert an Orc to discard a [Dwarven] possession borne by a character it is skirmishing. Discard this condition.
The "Banner of Command" of Azog at Ravenhill, that banner is really strong in both gametext and flavor. It's really well depicted I believe, changing it to other purposes than wound-prevention will spoil it. Besides, that version can cover the wound prevention that Bolg's Army needs, replacing the Orkish Bow. That Swarm pack 2 has both Azog and Bolg to spot, so the replay skill will be easy to use.
[2] •Banner of Command [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
To play, exert an Orc.
Maneuver: Exert Bolg or Azog to play this condition from your discard pile.
Skirmish: Remove [2] at a battleground to prevent an Orc from taking wounds.
- Shadow Arkenstone: Flavor-wise, the punishment on Elves and Men is really important (and the Thorin pack hasn't small chances of coinciding with any of the Mirkwood, Esgaroth or White Council pack; it's actually 42,9% (3 of 7) with 4 players, so it has gameplay relevance!). Besides, Bard shouldn't get a strength reduction, he's the only one who gets a direct benefit from it in the film/book.
All in all, the version I propose isn't hard to understand (says explicitly each thing that will happen), is relatively short and portrays well that Machiavel effect on the main FP cultures. The damage bonus can be erased, it adds useless text to the card.
Thank you !!!
You are welcome, my friend. It's always a pleasure. ;D
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- Stone Giants: I will change the phase for the Skirmish phase?
- Banner of Command: Ok, I can change the name, but I think this condition is great with the current image. The number of allies during the Battle of the Five Armies increases the number of Orcs in this battle. This is part of the Azog's strategy.
- Shadow Arkenstone: Yes, your version could be ok to understand, but it's hard to make quickly a clear strategy around it. In a draft, most players need to see quickly how a card works before they use it. I prefer the previous version:
"If bearer is Bilbo, each [Dwarven] companion is strength -2."
"Thorin gains this ability..... and discard it for 4 doubts."
-> Dwarves take a lot of time to search of the Arkenstone and are focused on it. And we can add 4 doubts to discard the Arkenstone (simpler as giving it to Bard). We still have this "divide" rule between Bilbo and the Dwarves (but no more with the Men and Elves).
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- Stone Giants: Hmmm, I've been rethinking this combo, and the card needs too many things to work with that combo, so now I'm not convinced about changing it (and lore-wise, Maneuver or Shadow are the perfect phases for this card :(). Just saw a theoric possibility of playing a loop, but that mighty loop needs: 1) LOTS of twilight ([3] + the cost of the other conditions, per loop); 2) 2 or more cards in the dead pile; 3) both Esgaroth and Bilbo pack coinciding (or a constructed format); 4) Ancestral Knowledge can destroy the chain (even with 3 or less conditions: after discarding Stone Giants, you'll depend on Power Struggle alone to continue the chain). Needs too many things.
- Banner of Command: The name and the picture are tied. There's no advantage of preserving the title for another card, if that other card won't use the picture too. The idea of Azog commanding directly from a higher ground, is to make him see the big picture and direct his (Sauron's) forces to any weak point he can spot, and also to disrupt the FP strong points. So this Banner of Command should give him power to order his support forces to stay at the rear guard (Assaulting Goblin!!), and the shock forces to the vanguard (mounted Orcs, The Wolves/Orc Army, Demolition Troll...).
That's very different from the current card's text. I like the current card, but would prefer to have the Banner of Command in the Swarm Pack 2 (Bolg's Army), with the current card in the Dain pack with another name and picture.
- Shadow Arkenstone: "Your version could be ok to understand, but it's hard to make quickly a clear strategy around it." You as the Shadow player really don't have the control over this card, you only play this "burning coal" and lay it on the FP player's hands. He/she will have to decide, but all !paths lead to great !peril. So you don't have a direct strategy about it. You can only have an indirect strategy, like punishing Bilbo with the Orkish Aggressor if he bears it (that is, taking advantage of the FP player's choice), but absolutely nothing else. And even if you don't change your strategy around the FP player's choice, it'll still be a great burden over his/her shoulder.
"We still have this "divide" rule between Bilbo and the Dwarves (but no more with the Men and Elves)." The main "divide and rule" effect was between the Dwarves vs the Elves-Men coallition. Not between Bilbo and the Dwarves (which indeed happened, but ended after Bilbo joined Bard's forces and thus was protected by them and Gandalf). So we must portray that FP division too. It will be really important when this Thorin pack coincides with either the Mirkwood or the Esgaroth pack, or even with the White Council pack.
A last thing: with Dwarven Song (or Thrór's Heirlooms from another pack), The [Dwarven] Arkenstone will be really easy to play, for a wise player that knows or foresees the power of the Shadow version. AND, the Shadow player only has Smaug's regroup skill to discard the [Dwarven] version, and no way to pull Smaug before site 8. So the Shadow Arkenstone must be really powerful.
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I will probably add some Shadow cards in the main deck in order to have 30 cards in both sides :
- 2x Fimbul, Orkish Assassin : [2] strength 7 vitality 2 site 3, Damage +1. To play exert an Orc. Shadow: Discard this minion from play to play an Orc from your draw deck.
- +1 Anger
- +1 Host of Thousands
- +1 card (Hatred Rekindled now, but we have to decide on this)
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Main_deck2.html
Stone Giants: Ok, I don't know yet if this card will be like this or if we will come back to the "exert X companions" ability. We will see after some tests.
Banner of Command: Maybe we can change this if a non-assigned Orc can discard a [Dwarven] possession rather than the skirmishing Orc? Or
Skirmish: Exert an Orc to discard a [Dwarven] weapon borne by a character assigned to a skirmish. Discard this condition.
Shadow Arkenstone: I have not a big team of playtesters, so I need simple cards for simple tests. I think this card needs an expensive and simple way to be discarded (add 4 doubts seemed fine) in order to play the [Dwarven] Arkenstone).
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I will probably add some Shadow cards in the main deck in order to have 30 cards in both sides :
- 2x Fimbul, Orkish Assassin : [2] strength 7 vitality 2 site 3, Damage +1. To play exert an Orc. Shadow: Discard this minion from play to play an Orc from your draw deck.
- +1 Anger
- +1 Host of Thousands
- +1 card (Hatred Rekindled now, but we have to decide on this)
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Main_deck2.html
Quite interesting! I like the extra copies, +1 Hatred Rekindled is key to build big decks (40+ per side), besides having only 2 copies makes the Shadow very vulnerable to condition discard. +1 Anger will make the game much more dynamic. I like the inclusion of Fimbul, and his skill will work very well with those +1 Hatred Rekindled and +1 Hosts of Thousands. Great! :up:
I was working on a Fimbul card time ago, but never finished it. I like your version, but would prefer a different lore text. Something like this: "'Dwarf-blood!'" ;)
Shadow Arkenstone: I have not a big team of playtesters, so I need simple cards for simple tests. I think this card needs an expensive and simple way to be discarded (add 4 doubts seemed fine) in order to play the [Dwarven] Arkenstone).
The FP player has much more chances to play the [Dwarven] version before the Shadow player gets its own: there are 3x copies of the [Dwarven] Arkenstone (+2x Dwarven Song), against only 2x Shadow ones. (Besides, Bilbo Collector of Treasures and Thrór's Heirlooms can coincide and help to play it even sooner.) So the Shadow player will have the problem of discarding the other version most of the times, and to do so he/she has Smaug's regroup skill alone (and Wrath of the Dragon in Smaug's pack, but the FP player decides what [Dwarven] artifact gets discarded). Which makes the Shadow Arkenstone will often be played only after Smaug!!
The problem I see is that the Arkenstone shouldn't be self-discarded. The Arkenstone was to Thorin's Company as valuable as the Ring of Thrór or Durin's Axe was to Balin's Expedition, or even like the Silmarils to the Noldor. It's just too valuable for them. For everyone. To Smaug and Thorin, it was a treasure above the whole hoard. To Bard, it was a means of negotiation. Even Bilbo was charmed by it, and wanted it above his 14th share: "Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by it enchantment... 'Now I am a burglar indeed! But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!'"
So he doesn't get rid of it; he retains it from Thorin (even after his oath of revenge!). Later he tries to prevent war amongst the FPs with it. In the film, Balin suggests that "perhaps it is best it remains lost", but even so Bilbo doesn't throw it away; besides, Bilbo's role in the film is to regain it, and it had the new value of giving Thorin authority over the remaining Dwarf-realms.
I don't think this card will be too complicated after all. It can be accommodated where it does less harm. The FP player will choose if weakens either Bilbo, or all Dwarves, or Thorin (+ all Elves/Men), depending on what's his/her FP and what Shadow is facing. But it will always cause some trouble and weakness. There are many possible combos, but the effects are very straightforward so the decisions are much easier (that reduces a lot the real combos). When facing a specific Shadow, it will be passed to the bearer who offers the less disadvantage to that specific Shadow. That can have a cost of +2 doubts, and will open a new disadvantage. That's all.
EDIT: I owe you some words about Stone Giants, Banner of Command, and the keyword for Azog's Swarm. I'll be editing this post to add such comments.
The discussion about the Last Lights of Durin's Days is idle. If you had some time for thoughts about my last proposal (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg91495.html#msg91495), it'd be nice to hear them ;).
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Ok I try this new Arkenstone.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Shadow_Arkenstone.png
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- The Shadow Arkenstone: Interesting. The important differences are:
1) Thorin makes Men and Elves str -2 instead of -3. That's good :up: Will be much simpler to remember.
2) Bard doesn't get rid of the printed -2 str to bearer. This part worries me a lot:-k.
Bard is the centerpiece of the Dale culture. Only he and the Esgaroth Volunteers can fight outside site 6. So making their best fighter base str 4 is too heavy an impairment for the Esgaroth pack. I know weapons can still give him some survival skills, but the only minions he ever might defeat would be str 6 or lower: Gollum, the Aggressor, Goblin Sneak and Goblin Runner. :(
So both Bard and Thorin are really bad options to the Esgaroth pack. Thus, the FP player will prefer to defend itself using the Dwarf companions, and throw those 2 Dale allies to the lions (Lorien Elf style!). There's no real incentive to pass him the Arkenstone. Only Mirkwood and White Council packs will prefer the Arkenstone on Bard. So I strongly believe the Shadow Arkenstone should give +3 to Bard when bearing it. To a base strength of 7.
- Alfrid: The previous point makes me think about the number of fighting allies. Mirkwood has 4, while the whole Esgaroth culture has 2 (which are also much weaker). That's a big problem. We must correct that problem (to make Bard a more appealing bearer of the Shadow Arkenstone), and the only way to do so is to change the add-ons: Alfrid or Town Hall. So I'd either replace Alfrid with a fighting/shooting Percy,... or something better: change Alfrid's maneuver skill.
[2] •Alfrid, Lickspittle [Dale]
Maneuver: Discard Alfrid to make a [Dale] Man strength +2 and may participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
"He spurs another guy to join the fight... while running from it!" That way you can have +1 Dale fighter at a moment of great need (!The Master might fight and heal himself at the next turn). And if Bard dies, you'll still be able to use the Esgaroth Volunteers. The pack lacks (temporary) pumps (only Take Up Arms can help them) so this solves that problem too, without giving them too much power.
- Dwarven Song: I said the Shadow Arkenstone shouldn't discard itself. I still think so. But you have a point when saying there must be a way to discard it: if it's played before the FP player sets up, the Company will carry a really deadly risk (either Thorin will be weak, or Bilbo will be str 1!).
Dwarven Song can have a line added to "discard a Shadow possession or Shadow artifact", or "discard a Shadow card borne by a companion". Something like this:
[3] Dwarven Song [Dwarven]
Event • Regroup
Discard an attached [Dwarven] follower with a twilight cost of X to play X [Dwarven] possessions or X [Dwarven] artifacts from your draw deck. You may exert a companion to discard a Shadow card borne by him.
That's not at Maneuver but at Regroup, so you still have to deal with the evil Arkenstone for a while. And you still have to "discard an attached [Dwarven] follower". If we ever add the Morgul Arrow, this addition will be able to combat it.
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*Arkenstone, King's Jewel: [Smaug] Artifact Cost 2 Strength -1
Plays on Bilbo.
At sites 7 to 9, wound bearer at the end of the maneuver phase. (If bearer is Bilbo, add a doubt instead.)
Thorin gains this ability: ‘‘ Maneuver: Add a doubt to transfer the Arkenstone to Thorin (or 3 doubts to discard this artifact).”
I prefer a self-discarding Arkenstone. I don't think Bard must be a bearer of the Arkenstone. I change the Arkenstone for a new kind of effect (Blade Tip like).
*Crown of Erebor: [Dwarven] Artifact Cost 2
Each time you play Roac, you may heal Thorin or Dain Ironfoot. Then, you may remove a doubt.
Assignment: If you cannot spot Thorin, [Dwarven] allies may be assigned to skirmishes.
I change this card (I add the "remove doubts" ability).
Such a High Cost: [Sauron] Condition Cost 3
While there is a character in the dead pile, each [Dwarven] companion is strength -1.
Maneuver: Discard this condition to wound a [Dwarven] ally (and add 2 doubts if you cannot spot Thorin).
The strength reduction were too strong, I remove the uniqueness of the card.
*Alfrid: [Dale] Ally Cost 2 Strength 4 Vitality 3.
To play, spot The Master or exert a companion.
Maneuver: Play a [Dale] card (except Bard) from your draw deck or discard pile. Discard Alfrid.
Alfrid is great to counter Terrifying Legend.
*Stone Giants: [Moria] Condition Cost 2
Each time the fellowship moves to site 4, the Free Peoples player must exert 2 [Dwarven] companions.
Maneuver: Play a condition from your discard pile (or up to 2 conditions if you spot a [Dwarven] companion in the dead pile). Discard this condition.
Simpler to control now.
Main deck
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Main_deck2.html
We are going to add these cards (4x Anger would be too strong):
- 2x Fimbul
- 1x Host of Thousands
- 2x Not at Home
*Not at Home: [Gundabad] Condition Cost 0
Each time a [Dwarven] companion is played at site 5 or higher, that companion must exert.
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- Crown of Erebor: Cool! That counters the doubts added via King Under the Mountain, and gives a totally new skill to Thorin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!. :up:
- Such a High Cost: Now looks like Field of the Fallen. :up: But not being unique, the maneuver action can be too powerful. So I'd add a limit to doubts: "Maneuver: Discard this condition to wound a [Dwarven] ally. Add 2 doubts if you cannot spot Thorin (limit 2)."
That way any corruption combo with Stone Giants/Power Struggle will be prevented too. The cost might then be reduced to [2].
- Stone Giants: Seems better :up:. You don't need to say "or up to 2 conditions if you spot", because spotting is optional (it's not "if you CAN spot"). It's enough with "or 2 conditions if you spot...", exactly like Secret Sentinels. Or "or up to 2 conditions if you can spot a [Dwarven] companion...", if you want to make things even clearer.
Main deck
We are going to add these cards (4x Anger would be too strong):
- 2x Fimbul
- 1x Host of Thousands
- 2x Not at Home
Yes, 4x Anger would destroy the balance with FP pumps. Agree.
I love Not At Home! Bravo! =D> It's that kind of card that seems not too powerful at first sight but ends up being really tough. Lore-wise, it represents a subtle and persistent detail during the whole the story, not a highlighted device or minion, that's really cool for flavor!
It will punish the abuse of companion replacement, like Goblin Domain with [Moria] archery. And will protect your other conditions (Hatred Rekindled) indirectly, as will give more targets to condition-discard. :up:
- Alfrid: I like the change from "exert a [Dale] Man" to "exert a companion". After all, he was annoying everyone in his path ;). But I think only 2 fighting allies (in absense of Smaug) for the whole culture is low :(... How can we solve that problem?
Terrifying Legend is a unique condition with only 3x copies, so can be countered by Ancestral Knowledge. But to counter the scarceness of fighting allies there is nothing. Besides, losing a possession or Man ally isn't as hard as losing a companion to Smaug, so Terrifying Legend might be offering more advantages than a punishment to the FP player :(.
Having only 2 Man fighters in the Esgaroth pack makes the "Divide and Rule" Shadow Arkenstone less viable. If you have to choose between neglecting either the Dwarves or the Esgaroth Men, if one option isn't painful you'll choose it with eyes closed. Reducing the strength of only 2 allies (from 6 to 4), hasn't a big impact.
- Jail: I've been thinking about this card, and the cost of discarding only 1 minion will be really OP with most Shadow packs, as either Beatdown packs provide durable minions or Swarm packs provide too many minions. The White Council pack doesn't provide a way to counter the survival of those minions. To do so, you'd need:
- Condition discard, or
- Damage bonuses (!The Wise can win but often don't kill!), or
- Massive minion wounding (any phase), or
- Massive minion discard (any phase), or
- Massive healing to Wise characters (preferably at regroup).
Lindir is doing nothing about those. And is an irrelevant character in the film (and totally absent in the book). It's a great card, but I'd rather have him in a new "Rivendell Pack" containing Vilya, Hadafang, the Shards of Narsil, some !Imladris Cavalry and things like that. In the White Council pack, I'd much rather have a card like this:
(0) •Nenya [Elven]
Artifact • Ring
Vitality +1
Bearer must be Galadriel.
At the start of each of your turns, you may add [2] to heal a Wise ally.
Regroup: Exert Galadriel twice and spot X Ring artifacts to wound X minions twice (except Smaug).
"Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger...", or
"'The power of the Lady... wields the Elven-ring.'"
The passive skill is a copy of Lindir's (healing Wise allies is really important) but more costly (Galadriel's vitality will be very powerful). The Regroup skill can be used only once per phase (she won't have 5 vitality). It can counter Jail at some extent, by killing often 1 or 2 minions at once (before Jail can work). Has a synergy with any Ring, either Shadow or FP, so Sauron can be punished for carrying the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór.
About Ring artifacts, there would be now a total of 5 to spot: The One (Main deck), Narya & Nenya (White Council pack), the [Sauron] or [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór (Thráin/Sauron pack), and Vilya (in the brand new Rivendell pack). 4 or 5 FP and 1 Shadow. We might even include a 6th Ring, which would be a [Wraith] Ring shared amongst all Nazguls. A support area [Wraith] Ring artifact, for example:
[2] •Nine for Mortal Men Doomed to Die [Wraith]
Artifact • Ring
Plays to your support area.
Each time the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, heal each [Wraith] minion.
Response: If a Nazgul is about to take a wound, remove [2] to prevent it.
"'Long ago they fell under the dominion of The One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow...'"
That is just a sample of the possibilities of what can be done. There might be mechanics for both Shadow and FP that spot Rings to gain benefits.
- The Shadow Arkenstone: You said "I prefer a self-discarding Arkenstone. I don't think Bard must be a bearer of the Arkenstone. I change the Arkenstone for a new kind of effect (Blade Tip like)."
I couldn't disagree more. Bard gets the Arkenstone in the book, and there and in the film, it's a very important part to set the FP armies at a strong position to defend the Lonely Mountain and their own lives (though not by the good will of theirs, but in spite of it by a Higher Providence that professor Tolkien called "Eucatastrophe"). Look at this book quote:
"'This is the Arkenstone of Thrain,' said Bilbo... 'I give it to you. It will aid you in your bargaining.' Then Bilbo, not without a shudder, not without a glance of longing, handed the marvellous stone to Bard, and he held it in his hand, as though dazed."
Therefore Bard gets a stronger position to negotiate. And that upsets the Dwarves. Curiously, Thorin's denial to pay for the stone causes the Armies he considers his enemies to remain. But in the meanwhile, their disunity puts them at the edge of war. And when the Goblins and Wargs attack, those allies are outside the Mountain, where they could have endured much better than in open field (at the 2nd Battle of Dale, the Men and Dwarves armies barricade behind the walls of Erebor, which saves them from being terminated by the outnumbering Easterlings). So the eucatastrophe helps but doesn't undo all wrongs and mistakes done.
I know, with only the Thorin pack, passing the Stone to Bard has no incentive. But if that Thorin pack coincides with another pack that uses support from Elves or Men, Bard will have important things to protect, or those important things will be ruined (and won't help the FP player).
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- Such a High Cost: Ok, I change the card. The limitation applies only for the card, not for the others cards (like Sixth Level, Great Siege-towers, ...). So only one doubt and [2] must be ok.
- Stone Giants: Well observed!!
- Not At Home: Thanks. Exactly, Anger is too powerful and the FP player doesn't put so much FP boosts in his deck. I will change the cost of the card for [1] or [2].
- Alfrid: The Esgaroth Pack doesn't work in the same way as the Mirkwood Pack. All cards are focused on Bard.
- [Sauron] cards: I change these cards, only strength 10 for Sauron, the Ring gives the ability during the assignment phase and the condition seems more balanced now.
- Nenya: Good idea, ok for a new pack focused on Lindir and Vilya. But Nenya must be stronger (the player needs to take Galadriel during the draft).
(0) •Nenya [Elven]
Artifact • Ring
Vitality +1
Bearer must be Galadriel.
At the start of your turn, you may heal a Wise ally.
Maneuver: Exert Galadriel and another Wise character to return a Shadow condition to its owner's hand (limit once per phase).
- Arkenstone: I make an Arkenstone with your idea.
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FCards_Good_def%2FShadow_Arkenstone_Durins_Heir.png&hash=32e579b1120ef579dfaace5a69131ee1d9b94d0c)
Bard needs the Arkenstone only to bargain a part of the treasure. He doesn't really want it. In the Arkenstone I propose, the discarding ability is here to model this. Bilbo is very scared to send away the problem caused by the Arkenstone.
Moreover, the Arkenstone causes fear to Bilbo and exerts Thorin.
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- Such a High Cost: Seems good. There is a couple of ways to keep the 2 doubts per condition, limiting those doubts to only 2, no matter how many conditions you have or replay. 1st is to add a condition, like "If you cannot spot Thorin (and no doubt was added this phase), add 2 doubts". The problem it brings, is that now the maneuver skill uses 4 card lines, and the lore text will suffer from it :(.
The other solution is to add a text to "skip your maneuver actions":
"Maneuver: Wound a [Dwarven] ally. If you can
not spot Thorin, add 2 doubts. Skip your
maneuver actions. Discard this condition."
The room is so small that I couldn't even add connection words like "and" (and was forced to split the word "cannot" into "can not"). But this should do it! ;) The condition is expensive, discarding it means losing the potential -1 str to Dwarves. This would preserve the proper original power, while preventing too much doubts and keeping the lore text !unharmed.
- Stone Giants: :up:
- Not At Home: If now its cost is [1] or [2], it might be non-unique. Or might have another small skill, something like this: "Each time the fellowship moves, add [1] for each exhausted companion you spot." Or both.
- Alfrid: The Esgaroth Pack doesn't work in the same way as the Mirkwood Pack. All cards are focused on Bard.
- Alfrid: I know all cards are focused on Bard, that's a good thing. But the difference in power is too big. The Mirkwood pack provides 4 fighting allies, which are strong by themselves, rely mainly on The Evil Becomes Stronger to fight so can't fight all the time (but Thranduil and Elf Army can use other resources), and don't have any weapon.
The Esgaroth pack provides only 2 fighting allies, which are weak and can get some strength with weapons (though those are borne better by Dwarf companions). They rely on themselves (not on events) to fight, and can heal. But with their low strength and vitality (and no pumps), they can die easily (Esgaroth Volunteers dies to any dmg+1, str 6 or 8 minion). Bard can kill minions at regroup, or 1 at archery with the Black Arrow. Iron-forged weapon can finish exhausted minions.
Mirkwood fighters:
- Thranduil. Str 9, Vit 4. Relies on Thorin and [Dwarven] events. Can survive Smaug once (unless Anger says hello!) or fight him twice, protecting your Dwarf companions from death at 8 :o.
- Legolas. Str 6, Vit 3. Relies on The Evil Becomes Stronger; = Str 8.
- Tauriel. Str 6, Vit 3. Ditto.
- Elf Army. Str 7, Vit 4. Relies on The Evil Becomes Stronger ( = Str 9, Vit 4) or spotting more minions than companions (and exerting = Str 7, Vit 3).
Esgaroth fighters:
- Bard. Str 6, Vit 3. Relies on exerting Baïn. Can be healed by !The Master, and/or Baïn. Can wield 2 weapons for Str 9.
- Esgaroth Volunteers: Str 6, Vit 3. Relies on exerting itself ( = Vit 2!) and spotting Bard. Can be healed by Baïn. Can wield 1 weapon for Str 8. Given the low vitality, any str 8 dmg+1 minion kills them.
That all. The difference is really huge! The Elves are OK, but Men should be stronger. Alfrid can replay weapons to wound minions, that's alright. But he's the only card that can be still changed, and the pack needs either another fighter like Percy, or something to make non-fighters join the battlefield, and make those skirmishing allies stronger. The latter is what my last proposal does (Alfrid would be a pump + summon event, but sitting in your support area instead of your hand ;)).
Alfrid might even do both things:
[2] •Alfrid, Lickspittle [Dale]
Ally • Home 6 • Man
Strength 4 Vitality 3
To play, exert a companion or a [Dale] Man.
Maneuver: Play a [Dale] card from your discard pile, or make a [Dale] Man strength +2 and participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase. Discard Alfrid.
He still plays [Dale] things but only from discard (useful to get back wounding weapons), or can instead summon a [Dale] Man in play to the fight (a Str 7 Master will have good surviving skills). The "(except Bard)" part, and the cost were trimmed to get the card into 5 lines, and preserve the current lore text unaltered.
Do you want a bit more power? Alfrid might both play a [Dale] card, AND then summon another [Dale] Man to fight. "Play a [Dale] card from your discard pile. Then, make a [Dale] Man strength +2 and participate in skirmishes...". That would flatten the score considerably: 4 strong Mirkwood fighters, vs 3 moderately strong Esgaroth fighters (who can heal).
- [Sauron] Sauron cards: I like 2 of these 3 changes. The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór will be more strategical at assignment (you can force bad exert-to-assign decisions by bluffing!). Danger Wrapped in Shadows looks better with less strength addition; anyway I'd change its limit from +2 to +3 per skirmish.
But Sauron shouldn't be strength 10. [-X Radagast defeated the Witch King with ease (whose strength is +4) but feared to face The Necromancer. Elrond/Saruman will be str 11 with Former Herald! Gandalf + Glamdring is str 9, he would need only 1x Take Up Arms, or Beorn/Bombur (or 2 small followers) to defeat him. But Elrond and Saruman got frightened when Sauron appeared, and Gandalf got almost killed by him...
I agree that str 15 is too strong for only "[5] twilight + another card" combo. For such strength, his twilight cost should be around 7 or 9. But then his standalone skills (Orcs are fierce, exert-to-assign) will have little impact with so little twilight left. How can we reconcile both points? The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór makes Sauron fight, and the rest has little impact. If you change the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór's cost to [2] or [3], you'd get a non-fighter cheap version, and an upgraded fighting expensive version. ;)
If twilight is moderate, you will decide if making Sauron fight, or play many Orcs/Nazgul to assign at will. If twilight is abundant, BOTH!
- Nenya: Great for a new Rivendell pack \:D/! I prefer Nenya wounding at regroup, due to 2 things:
1) The new maneuver skill is Decipher's Vilya, but more powerful as it costs a bit less.
2) The wounding skill can represent what she did to that poor Orkish Veteran who was trying to kill Gandy! She uses then Nenya only, later she picks the Phial. And the Veteran was doing what Jail does... so it has a really strong flavor.
I never liked Vilya's skill returning my conditions. Fairly overpowered. And one of the most annoying things in the LOTR TCG (you said long time ago, we must avoid NPE cards and combos). We can formulate the regroup skill in a different way:
"Regroup: Exert Galadriel twice and spot X Wise characters to wound X minions, or wound a minion (except Smaug) X times." Only once per turn (4 vitality doesn't allow more). That's all.
- The Arkenstone: I will answer this point later, I must leave now. But the graphical versions of both cards look very good!
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- Nenya: The problem with the massive minion wounding in regroup is the Bolg Shadow. This Shadow will have big problems against such card, without any way to solve it. So I propose damage bonuses or massive wounding during maneuver or skirmish (easier to balance for every Shadow), or even another ability for condition discard:
Nenya's power is preservation, protection, and concealment from evil.
- Such a High Cost: The card seems ok now. I prefer a more weak but balanced card.
- Not at Home: The goal is to prevent the replacement of some [Dwarven] companions after site 5. The first sites are used to set up the fellowship.
- [Sauron] cards: Ok, I add a cost for the ability of the Ring. If the Ring costs more than (0), the ability for Nazguls will be useless.
I put back Sauron at strength 15. But he is really strong, unbeatable, I think he doesn't have to be fierce, only damage +1. Otherwise, he will only be used as a very strong minion, not as a leader (in the shadow) of the Orcs and the Nazguls.
- Alfird: The [Elven] allies will probably not be assigned to skirmishes at site 5 (due to Forest River), but all Esgaroth allies can at site 6. Ok, the Men allies are not very strong. I can add on Alfrid:
[Dale] allies cannot be overwhelmed unless his strength is tripled.
or
[Dale] allies cannot be wounded (except during skirmish phases).
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- Nenya: My last proposal was "X wounds to a single minion, or wound X minions once" (and X will be from 1 to 4). I think Bolg's Army can survive that, and use the remaining minions to trigger Jail and counter Galadriel / Elrond / Gandy.
Damage bonuses... you know I have a soft spot about them :P! I've been designing a [Gandalf] Saruman's Staff for another Extension, that makes each Wise character damage +1 (as he was the Chief of them all, and directed -and even protagonized- the attack on Dol Guldur). Perhaps Nenya should give strength and damage by exerting Galadriel, or damage only but not by exerting (as it will interfere with her skirmish skill), but discarding FP cards from hand for instance...
Nenya's power is preservation, protection, and concealment from evil.
Hmmm, that's true according to the books. But in the film, she uses her Ring to annihilate that Orc ;)... Massive healing at regroup can show her preservation powers. There is a lot of options now...
This is my current idea about Saruman's Staff (though I prefer Nenya here, given PJ's nice work about the connection of the Elven rings and their bearers):
[2] •Saruman's Staff, Chief's Device [Gandalf]
Artifact • Staff
Strength +2 Vitality +1
Bearer must be Saruman.
Each Wise character is damage +1.
Fellowship: Exert Saruman twice to take a [Gandalf] card into hand from your discard pile.
"'But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus... we drove him from Dol Guldur.'"
- Such a High Cost: That's alright. :up:
- Not at Home: I know that's the goal, but being unique makes somewhat easy to get rid of it (not only Ancestral Knowledge, but also Sting and Bifur). It's also cumulative, so if you could have 2 non-unique copies you'd force the FP player to direct his/her condition discard first against those 2, and then against other conditions like Hatred Rekindled. I'd prefer to include that change, but I like it as it is anyway. :up:
- Danger Wrapped in Shadows: Great for "limit +3". :up:
- The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: Clever solution! =D> That way the vitality bonus + cheaper Nazguls will be obligatory, while spending [3] to get a fighting Sauron will be optional.
I think he must be fierce. BUT the assignment skill must work only "during this (assignment) phase" and not "until the regroup phase". That way, you can pay [3] to make him skirmish only once at either the normal or the fierce skirmish (at your choice, like Uruk Trackers with Get Back!). Or afford [6] to make him skirmish twice. 6 + 5 = 11, if both Sauron and his Ring are played from hand. If both are recovered from discard with Danger Wrapped..., +4 = 15 twilight! Seems fair in my opinion.
"Assignment: Remove [3] to make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply during this phase."
And will give an use to the twilight generated by the FP player not only during maneuver and archery, but during skirmishes too (The Eagles Are Coming, Thráin's skill, event pumps...). The non-fierce skirmishes can give you some unexpected twilight to make him fight a second time.
A last thing. He's like Smaug: "Strong, strong, strong!". But not unbeatable. Thorin can be str 13 dmg+2 with only 2 small [Dwarven] followers and Orcrist, all which remain on the board and can be played by any deck. Not including Take Up Arms, Battle Fury (+4 for each!), Oakenshield, [Gandalf] followers, Great Barricade, Galadriel or Lindir, Gathering of the 3 Rings, Burglar's Contract... Thorin can face him, the problem is that Sauron will then distract your main fighter from other threats. Or can assign Thorin directly to another minion.
- Alfrid: "The [Elven] allies will probably not be assigned to skirmishes at site 5 (due to Forest River), but all Esgaroth allies can at site 6." That's right, though that requires exertions and Elves will still shoot arrows, and Watchful Orc (or Thrór's Map) can replace Forest River with Mirkwood / Old Forest Road. But that's alright, site 6 is a tough site and having a host of Men (or Lorien allies in FOTR block) helps a lot to double move from 4. Didn't notice that before, thanks for that hint! :)
On Alfrid, you might add an active a passive skill instead: Assignment: "Each [Dale] Man bearing a weapon may participate in skirmishes". That way a str 7 to 9 Bard (bearing an Iron Weapon or Black Arrow, or both), str 8 Esgaroth Volunteers, str 7 !The Master, str 6 Baïn, or even str 6 Alfrid can fight anywhere (as long as you play those weapons on Man allies). Or you can use him to play a [Dale] card, but not both skills (as the maneuver skill will discard him before assignment Man allies can be asigned).
On the options you provide, none can help Esgaroth Volunteers to survive a dmg+1 minion (they must exert to vit 2 or 1 to fight). So skipping that exertion (like that assignment skill I propose), or making them much stronger (to allow them to not lose), or a skill like Armor / Belt of Erebor, or like Dwarven Bracers... those can help them survive really. I remember a Lake-town Armor card that prevented a wound time ago. But we must refer to Alfrid (or to a Man/Woman leader like Percy or Hilda Bianca), not to items. Until a new Extension set.
- I still owe you the revision of the Shadow Arkenstone. And Banner of Command. And the keyword for Azog's Army.
EDIT: The new skill proposed for Alfrid should be passive, instead of an Assignment special ability. Corrected it.
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- The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: Nice solution :), ok for this (I think the card is understandable without "this phase")
"Assignment: Remove [3] to make the first sentence of Sauron's game text not apply."
- Not at Home: I prefer a unique condition, because there are only 2 copies of this condition. So, the set up of this condition could be random. I prefer a stable effect on the later sites to avoid randomness.
- Alfrid: Ok for more participating [Dale] allies. There is another problem, most of these allies depend on Bard. If Bard dies due to Narzug (it happens sometimes), the [Dale] engine stops. So, I propose this:
• Alfrid, Lickspittle : Cost (2). Ally. Man. Home 6. Strength 4. vitality 3. Each [Dale] Man bearing a weapon may participate in skirmishes. Response: If a [Dale] ally is about to take any number of wounds, discard Alfrid to prevent this.
- Nenya: My last proposal was "X wounds to a single minion, or wound X minions once" (and X will be from 1 to 4). I think Bolg's Army can survive that, and use the remaining minions to trigger Jail and counter Galadriel / Elrond / Gandy.
Regroup: Exert Galadriel twice and spot X Wise characters to wound X minions, or wound a minion (except Smaug) X times.
The problem with this proposition is the need of exerting Galadriel twice. I prefer an effect with only one exert: a double exert will make the use of Galadriel's skirmish ability difficult.
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- The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: Great! :up:
- Not at Home: OK. :up:
- Alfrid: I like it! =D> That will keep the Dale culture working for a longer time, and AWINL can return him after being used. Perhaps the playing cost should be "To play, add a doubt" to be like Bofur's aid cost (who prevents wounds too), and also represent his scornful and obstructive attitude towards his fellow men.
The passive skill might be a little different, saying "Each other [Dale] Man bearing a weapon..." to represent his coward heart. Then he would stand at the background while other Men (bearing weapons) do the dirty work. And your response action can protect those fighting Men. But each time he does so and returns, you'll have to pay [2] and a doubt. Just for flavor ;).
But I really like your version, it has my total approval. :up:
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Perfect, I made the modifications on the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór and Alfrid.
I also included the new Nenya. It's more a card able to use Balin (his ability is not often used) and the other [Gandalf] events of the pack. With this indirect way, I think Galadriel can counter Jail (with Gathering of the Three Rings, Former Herald, Take up arms....).
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- Nenya: Great! :up: I like the new Nenya. With Balin, it will aim to kill by winning skirmishes with Take Up Arms, Gathering of the 3 Rings and Former Herald. Or by direct wounding with Dawn Take You All (Galadriel and Erlond can heal Gandalf's 2 exertions, and Nenya will heal Galadriel). Really good!
If winning skirmishes happens to not be enough during playtests, a damage bonus mechanism might be added to Wise characters. But the combined force of Gathering of the 3 Rings and Galadriel's skirmish skill will let many towering minions at the reach of the Dwarven hands to finish the job. Dwalin, Thorin, Glóin and Fili (and Bombur) will provide damage bonuses.
- Alfrid: Nice! There are 2 small writing errors on the new version: the first skill "Each other [Dale] Man..." misses the dot "." at the end. And the second skill says "to prevent this", while should be "to prevent that". Otherwise, magnificent! :up: ;D
- Orkish Bow: The mention of a damage bonus to counter Jail, and the mention of Bolg's Army also, force me to think about Orkish Bow's anti-damage text. I still believe it's overpowered. Trapped and Alone cancels only 5 FOTR cards: Glamdring, Ranger's Sword, Blade of Gondor, Gimli's Battle Axe and Gwemegil. The other ways of adding damage remain: Gimli's instrinsic bonus, Lord of Moria, [Dwarven] events (Cleaving Blow, Flurry of Blows, Battle Fury), Dagger Strike, Voice of Rauros... all were unaffected by Trapped and Alone. Besides it it a condition, much easier to discard in both LOTR TCG and the Hobbit Draft Game than a Shadow possession.
If the Orc Army bears the Orkish Bow, the only way to kill bearer (in order to free all FP damage bonuses) will be to directly wound it 3 times (Orcrist can contribute with 1 only), and win a skirmish against it. If also bears a mount (Azog's Amry has mounts on the same Swarm pack 2), the number of direct wounds will raise to 4 or 5!
So in my opinion the Orkish Bow should either have a different skill, or cancel only the damage bonus from cards borne (that means Orcrist, Dwarven Axe at a mountain, and Bombur). An optional skill like this might work: "Response: If an Orc at a battleground is about to take a wound, remove [2] to prevent it."
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Alfrid: Thank you for this ;). I change it.
Nenya: I will probably change it for a fellowship ability rather than a maneuver ability. I will also add a cost "exert Galaidriel and add [2]" but no more times limit. The maneuver ability is really strong (you see what you need), maybe too much ?
Orkish Bow: Ok we can change it, but [2] and at a battleground are too huge conditions for this ability. These [Gundabad] Orcs use a lot of twilight tokens, moreover Goblin Footman must be really useful in this Shadow too. We need something different:
Each time bearer takes a wound, the Free Peoples player must exert a [Dwarven] companion or discard a card from hand.
Or even a condition instead of a possession:
Orkish Bloodlust : Cost (1). Gundabad. Condition. +1 health.
Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc.
Bearer is strength +2 for each wound on him.
Skirmish: Remove [1] to play a [Gundabad] condition from your discard pile.
Most of the [Dwarven] companions have damage bonuses and Orcrist with his ability gives 2 more wounds (Orcrist is a big problem for this Shadow).
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Travellers Pack
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to place 2 Free Peoples cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"'We're making a long-term deposit!'"
[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard X cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
[2] A Chance Meeting [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Gandalf and Thorin to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. Take up to 2 [Dwarven] cards revealed into hand. Shuffle your draw deck.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
[2] Also A Took [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take into hand a [Dwarven] card from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
[2] •The Last Lights of Durin's Day [Smaug]
Condition • Support area
At the end of each turn, add a doubt and exert Thorin if the fellowship didn't move more than once.
Each time the fellowship moves more than once, you must wound each minion twice.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
Your proposition was too powerful, I think this one could be ok. It really changes the game.
The Prancing Pony
Site 1
At the start of your fellowship phase, you may add [2] to take into hand a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] event from your draw deck.
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- Nenya: Interesting. Twilight at fellowship, to allow the Shadow players to reap it. And no limit... :up: She can assemble an attack to Dol Guldur, by recovering more than 1x Former Herald. Great!
Yes, the previous version allowed to see exactly what you need. And each turn she and Elrond healing many/all exertions from Gandy and her... That probably falls into the same NPE category as Decipher's Vilya.
- Alfrid: I don't know if the card has enough room for that change. And Alfrid fought: he was faced by Ogres in the film, but "discarded himself" to "prevent that". There isn't (YET!) a card like Dunlending Warrior to assing allies at the Shadow player's will, so only the FP player will assign Alfrid to skirmishes, and that can only happen at site 6 or if Bilbo summons him with Skilled Negociator (but not by bearing a weapon). So it's not necessary.
If you want to change the doubt cost (maybe to protect from Corruption Shadows?), "exert a companion" seems better. That will pass wounds from Dale allies to your companions (albeit at a very good price: X wounds prevented to a Man = 1 companion exerted). AWINL will replay him, but that's risky as it's not a condition/ally in the support area. So he can come back soon, can come back late... or can never come back.
Each time bearer takes a wound, the Free Peoples player must exert a [Dwarven] companion or discard a card from hand.
- Orkish Bow: That proposal is very interesting. Discarding cards can be considered a way of exerting your mind (not your body). Can be good for both gameplay and flavour. Seems good at first glance. :up:
You proposed another skill, a Response to wounds with a cost of exerting bearer or discarding 2 cards. I like that even more, it has a stronger flavor in my opinion. Protects the Goblin Footman, who will be used very often and with so small vitality, wound protection will prolong his usefulness A LOT. Also, if borne by The Orc Army (or Bolg) it will bring the flavor of a real army (or a strong leader) backing up individual Orcs in the field, providing them some !escape and preventing an easy death.
The condition is a copy of Seasoned Leader... Have you ever seen what can do a Desert Lord when bearing only 1 copy of such condition? Str 17 + 3 directed exertions! :evil: But the Orc Army will be str 19 if exhausted (can soak archery, or can exhaust at regroup and prevent a 2nd move), I think it's too much for a single card. Besides, it gives no job to the Goblin Footman.
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Nenya: Yes, you're right.
Alfrid: Ok, I will not change him. I didn't want to see Alfrid skirmishing and another [Dale] ally, that way, Alfrid can discard himself (and cancel his skirmish) to prevent the wound of the other ally.
The first ability of Terrifying Legend was rarely used, so I proposed this:
• Terrifying Legend : Cost (2). [Smaug] Condition • Support area.
Each time a Free Peoples character is overwhelmed, you may discard a Free Peoples possession.
Assignment: Exert a minion twice to make a Man ally (except Bard) participate in skirmishes and assign this minion to skirmish that ally.
Orkish Bow: I think I will change for a different version of the previous one.
Orkish Bow : Cost (0). [Gundabad] Possession. Ranged Weapon. Strength +1.
Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc. Bearer is an archer.
While bearer is at a battleground or forest site, each Orc takes no more than 1 wound during each skirmish phase.
Maybe river rather than battleground?
The next 2 packs will probably be Elrond Pack (Lindir+Vilya+...) and a Balin Pack (with effects on Ori, Dwalin,...).
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- !Nenya: Just noticed, with the new version you can use AWINL to play Galadriel, play Nenya and recover AWINL. So you will play it twice to get Elrond and Saruman, or 3 times to get also Bard (or any other ally). That's [4] for Galadriel (played by AWINL), [7] for Elrond ([4] + [1] AWINL + [2] Nenya), [7] too for Saruman, and perhaps [5] more for Bard = 18 or 23 twilight!
Quite expensive, but powerful too. The Prancing Pony (if coincides) can get AWINL from the VERY start. You only need AWINL in hand/discard, and Nenya in hand. If the Shadow player doesn't have (good) Shadow cards to play, all that twilight will be gone without giving any trouble to the FP player. Which is not improbable at site 1 (with the Prancing Pony).
- Balin Pack and Elrond Pack: Great idea! Balin is the 2nd at command and has a deep development in personality and story, in both PJ's Hobbit films and Tolkien's books (plural!). "Burned Dwarves" about the Battle of Azanulbizar (can be a def+1 trick, similar to Disquiet of My People). Some event to remove doubts. His Mace Sword!! I've even considered making Balin a follower, and Ori/Óin a companion...
The "Elrond pack" might be "Rivendell pack" instead. I believe we can make an amazing The Shards of Narsil, to link Elves and Men (it's a vestige of the Elf-Man alliances and what they can do together). Yes, Lindir and Vilya. But don't forget about Hadafang!
A Gandalf, or Radagast/Rhosgobel pack can bring more tricks and friends to them. Radagast lacks a lot of things: his Sled, Sebastian (the Hedgehog), his Staff, the Birds of Rhosgobel (they were very important, 'cause gathered messages and news between the Wizards; they were key to get the Eagles into the Battle), healing tricks, Beorn's horses, perhaps Beorn as an ally...
The only problem is that Radagast isn't present in the Main deck. Elrond/Rivendell, Balin, and Gandalf all are present and can be easily developed. But I believe Radagast too is really worthy of such deeper treatment, if we can find a solution to that problem (obviously, having another version of Radagast solves all but can cost too much card slots, which would be really good for new ideas).
I owe you all remaining points :(. Have no more time right now.
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- Nenya: You're right. Maybe instead of adding [2], it could be only [Gandalf] spells (so not AWINL, He Gives Me Courage and Former Herald). Or it can make the Shadow player draw 2 cards.
- Jail: I think this card is very good with the Bolg's Army. But such a mass wounding Shadow needs Jail, Galadriel and his ring heal a lot.
I made a test with Jail and Bolg's Army, it's really hard to stack Wise characters, because Elrond is always healed and Galadriel has often 3 or more vitality.
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- Nenya: Not spells-only, because Former Herald is key for Wise ally support (I had problems when designing prototypes for Saruman's Staff because of it; limiting to "spells only" lets out that key tool). I prefer:
- Choosing a Shadow player who may draw 2 cards, as you propose. Or
- Taking into hand a "non-fellowship [Gandalf] event" only. That way you prevent loops, as loops occur when 2 (or more) actions feedback each the other(s), and those actions happen at the same phase.
I like the latter, as it allows us to develop new [Gandalf] Fellowship events to heal (otherwise you'd use a loop to heal all wounds: add a ton of twilight and choose a Shadow player who draws a ton of cards, to heal a ton of wounds). Gandalf healed Thorin at the end of the 1st film, Radagast healed Sebastian the Hedgehog, Galadriel healed Gandalf... but there isn't a single [Gandalf] card to heal characters. Yet.
This is a [Gandalf] healing event I've been working:
[2] Compassionate Spirit [Gandalf]
Event • Fellowship or Regroup
Spell.
Spot a Wizard to heal a companion once or an ally twice.
You may exert Radagast twice to play this event from your discard pile.
"'Release the animal from sharp pain. Animal-friend, now listen to voice-words. Be its life renewed.'"
The lore text is the translation of Radagast's spell/prayer to heal Sebastian: "'Lerya laman naiquentallo. Celvameldë, sí a hlarë ómaquettar. Na coilerya en-vinyanta.'" (Googled it, don't ask me about Sindar 'cause I don't know! ;))
- Jail: Interesting. Experience always beats theory, if they happen to differ. I wonder how did behave Hidden Attack. Well, it needs dead characters at first stance... not too well I guess.
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- Nenya: Unfortunately, I think I will change it for [Gandalf] spells: after a simple test, I realise that He Gives Me Courage can come back again and again with Balin. It becomes a NPE experience for a Gollum Shadow (removing 2 doubts each turn is too much). I know the only non-spell [Gandalf] card which doesn't give new big problems is Former Herald :(. Whatever, the Free Peoples player can bring Elrond (strength 11 and healing twice each turn) back in skirmishes each turn with Balin (and eventually Saruman).
- Gollum, Bound to the Ring: Instead of this card (which could be hard to use in some Shadow strategies), I propose this.
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FCards_Good_def%2FRiddles_in_the_Dark.png&hash=d440f0571b6c7a3e6a6b165ab63af5c2d9693af8)
It's a response action, so the Shadow player can do it more than once.
- Orkish Bow: I modify Orkish Bow. It seems easier to use now (Orcrist was the biggest problem).
- Sauron gives now strength +1 to all Orcs and the assignment cost of the Ring of Thror is only [2].
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- Riddles in the Dark: Clever and interesting! Seems like a real riddle game, and introduces the discard mechanic, which was abandoned. :up:
- Orkish Bow: Nice! I think it might be more balanced if it allowed the FP player to replay that card if the fellowship moves again, or at the regroup phase (otherwise will punish double moves too hard):
- "The Free Peoples player may play that weapon at the start of the fellowship phase".
- "If the fellowship moves again, The Free Peoples player may play that weapon".
- Sauron & The [Sauron] Ring of Thrór: Seems fine. The first version of Sauron gave them +1 strength. :up:
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- Orkish Bow: It's powerful but the Bolg Shadow needs it. Ok, the double move will be hard, but most the [Gundabad] Orcs will be discarded due to Orkish Veteran (it was a problem in the [Isengard] stupid swarm Shadow: too much easy double moves).
- Sauron: Thank you, I didn't remember that ;).
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Moreover, the Beatdown Pack 3 will be:
- Corrupted Men (Braga & Cie) : 15 cards
- Shadow Elves ? : 15 cards
- ??? : 10 cards
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10 cards: Bree spies? Bill Ferny Sr & Squint.
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They will be [Men] Shadow cards from the Traveller's Pack (the one with Prancing Pony).
I don't know yet if Alfrid will become a Shadow card or not (since the Master is a fellow card). This way, we will see Percy in the Esgaroth Pack ;).
Maybe Stone Giants for the last Shadow ? It will probably be the last Shadow pack...
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They will be [Men] Shadow cards from the Traveller's Pack (the one with Prancing Pony).
I don't like them as [Men] Men, as Ferny Sr. & Squint can be [Sauron] or [Gundabad] Men instead. Then they will be target of the same cards that aim [Sauron] or [Gundabad] minions. Remember they were spies of Azog, and there were some others of Sauron that carried the Black Speech message shown by Gandalf.
Besides, the Evil [Dale] Men might very well be [Dale] Shadow cards, there's no need to include a new [Men] culture (the Dale and Bree evil guys weren't related at all, they shouldn't share the same culture). They would be easily differentiated from the FP Men, not only because the cards would be darker and would use a diamond instead of a circle. There would be [Dale] allies (FP), and "[Dale] minions" (Shadow). And references to "[Dale] Men" would affect both, making some FP cards feed the Evil Dale men, and some Shadow [Dale] cards feed the good Dale guys...
I don't know yet if Alfrid will become a Shadow card or not (since the Master is a fellow card). This way, we will see Percy in the Esgaroth Pack ;).
- Percy: Alfrid's gametext can be used by Percy, with some modifications. He'd be a like Alfrid, summoning others to the fight... and joining them of course:
[2] •Percy, Porter of Lake-town [Dale]
Ally • Home 6 • Man
Strength 6 Vitality 3
Archer.
Each other [Dale] Man bearing a weapon participates in archery fire and skirmishes.
Response: If another [Dale] Man is about to take a wound, exert Percy to prevent it.
"'Bard! Orcs are storming over the causeway!'"
He's an archer, is stronger than Alfrid and prevents only 1 wound per response.
Anyway, I've been working on a "Ruins of Dale" pack that includes Percy, Hilda Bianca and some [Dale] fortifications. The idea is to not portray what the Esgaroth pack already does (a strong and ordered society in Lake-town, with Iron Weapons and politicians), but instead the survivors of Esgaroth's destruction forced to defend their new home at the ruins of Dale (mostly elders and women). If you like that idea, a FP version of Alfrid can still be present in the Esgaroth pack, while a Shadow version of Alfrid would be in that 3rd Beatdown pack.
Maybe Stone Giants for the last Shadow ? It will probably be the last Shadow pack...
There are some subcultures missing. Moria Archers for instance!
Also, there are many parts missing yet regarding the Shadow cultures. An Add-on to each Shadow pack is what I believe would fix that problem. I mean, the 3 Trolls don't have a Sack event/condition to capture the Dwarves; Azog's Army lacks the very important Dark Bats that darkened the fields in the book (helping the daylight-hater Orcs). Nazguls don't have Rings (or a generic universal support area Ring). Gollum doesn't have riddle event/conditions yet. Smaug also doesn't have cards to portray his fight with Bilbo. There's no [Gundabad] Warg minions...
As stated above, a new Add-on to each Shadow pack would fix that problem.
Here's a Sack card to help the Trolls:
[2] Caught In A Sack [Troll]
Condition • Support Area
Strength -1
Response: If a [Dwarven] or [Shire] companion loses a skirmish to your Troll, transfer this condition from your support area to that companion. Limit 1 per companion.
The Free Peoples player must exert a companion to assign bearer to a skirmish.
"And so the fight ended."
Hope you like it.
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I don't like a [Dale] Shadow with a too similar template as the [Dale] FP culture. [Men] Shadow seems great for this. Ok Bill Ferny Sr and Squint could be [Sauron] or [Gundabad] cards. I wanted a more general Corrupted Men Shadow, but it's ok for me that way.
I don't want to make add-on of each Shadow Pack. 3 boosters of 15 cards are enough. There will be only new Shadow cards of Shadows from Beatdown Pack 1 and Swarm Pack 1 through Shadow cards from the Supplementary Packs, that's all.
We can put this card in the Bilbo Pack (instead of Stone Giants) or even in the Balin Pack (the Stone Giants will only be a condition in another supplementary pack):
[2] Caught In A Sack [Troll]
Event • Assignment
Discard a minion (or exert a Troll) to spot a companion. That companion cannot be assigned to a skirmish until the start of the regroup phase. That companion may exert twice to prevent this.
"As each dwarf came up and looked at the fire, and the spilled jugs, and the gnawed mutton, in surprise, pop! went a nasty smelly sack over his head, and he was down."
So the Beatdown Pack 3 will be:
- Corrupted Men - 15 cards
- Evil Elves - 15 cards
- Goblin Archers - 10 cards
I don't think a Ring for the [Ringwraith] minions is a good idea. Furthermore, there is no picture of this in the Hobbit movies.
Can you make a list of what is missing ?
- Sacks
- Dark Bats
- Dragon's Malice for the fight between Smaug and Bilbo (maybe I can change the picture).
- Riddles in the Dark in the Bilbo Pack will be the riddle you expected. I don't want a keyword too rarely used.
- Warg minions (not sure for this, the previous version of Savage Warg wasn't great in play).
- ...
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- Percy: I love the picture you chose! :up:
- Beatdown Pack 3: The Goblin Archers don't mix well with the Evil elves and men. I'd rather have some "Dragon Sickness" Smaug cards, or even some [Sauron] cards (not Sauron in person, but his plans). Or Warg minions, they pressed them to move fast to safe places, where the evil Men and Elves despised them and caused them lots of troubles. I believe Wargs have more sense than Goblin Town archers, if you don't like a Smaug pack II or a Sauron pack II.
The Goblin Archers might instead be in a 3rd Swarm Pack, along with perhaps other cards for Spiders (the spiders don't have web cards, those might work as the Uruk Trackers and search conditions). Or Warg minions. Or spiders AND wargs: a Swarm pack divided in 3 cultures like the Beatdown packs do.
- Ferny & Squint: The way to connect the Evil Dale men with these 2 spies, in case they should work together, would be to refer to "Man minions" instead of a common culture. That can be used to bear weapons or for some conditions of special abilities.
I don't like the Travellers Pack using the 2 Shadow card slots with these 2 spies. I mean, they travelled all along the North-Western Middle Earth to get to Erebor, and they had many enemies hindering them besides those human spies. I mean: Trolls, Stone Giants, Goblins, Wargs, Spiders, Elves... all participated against the Company. And the clock was their main enemy to get to Erebor: Durin's Day. And then they had to defeat Smaug.
I'd rather have The Last Lights of Durin's Day, and something else. But there isn't a picture where both Squint and Ferny show their faces (they are together only when following Thorin at the streets of Bree, 1:32 Dos EE, but only their backs can be seen). So I'd make a condition-minion like A Shadow Rises, using either the picture of their backs, or the picture of the Black Speech message:
[1] •Someone Wants You Dead [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
Maneuver: Remove [4] and spot Thorin to make this condition become a fierce Man minion until the regroup phase that has 11 strength and 1 vitality, and cannot take wounds or bear Free Peoples cards. This card is still a condition.
"'!A promise of payment... for your head.'"
So this card can only be discarded as a condition, or be overwhelmed. And can bear Shadow cards, like a weapon for any Man minion or any [Sauron] minion (which would stay stacked with it after the end of the turn). And stays the whole turn, making double moves much harder, therefore allowing to trigger The Last Lights of Durin's Day...
That way the titles of •Bill Ferny Sr. and •Squint will be available for the Corrupted Men pack. "This, Mr. Baggins, is the world of Men."
- Add ons: I know you don't like the idea of adding more cards, but there's a simple way of adding only 7x cards per player, which isn't an aggressive change but allows to deepen some flavor and strategy aspects of the cultures:
The current is: 3x Boosters with 15x cards each = 45 cards per player. By reducing the cards per Booster to 13x, and increasing the Boosters to 4x = 52 cards. That's only 7 cards more per player. 1x Shadow pack requires 2x players, so 2* 7 cards = 14 cards to distribute in add ons. Then a Swarm pack can divide in 7 + 7, while Beatdown pack might be 5 + 5 + 4. Those card slots can improve a Shadow culture to a suprising extent. The list of missing things will show us the potential of this.
- Caught in a Sack: Your version is much better! :up: Bilbo's Pack should be OK, and the Stone Giants should be then in Balin's Pack. In the book Balin was the Company's explorer, and in the film he knew better than anyone the !paths of the Misty Mountains.
Your version will be a nice suprise against Dwalin's skill!
I'll be working on the list of missing things.
EDIT #1: Some additions:
I don't like a [Dale] Shadow with a too similar template as the [Dale] FP culture. [Men] Shadow seems great for this.
:-k Hmmm, perhaps you might use the template of the [Men] culture, BUT still use the [Dale] culture symbol. Then, they'd still be [Dale] cards, but with a darker, yellow template very different to that of good Dale guys. Cards that give strength to any "[Dale] Man", meant to help the good guys, would be helping the evil bloodsuckers too!
- Caught in a Sack: Should be "discard a minion (or exert a Troll)", or "(or exert a [Troll] Troll)"? I think the [Moria] Trolls at the BotFA lacked the wit to use the sacks; the 3 Stone Trolls were brain gifted among their race.
EDIT #2: Cleared up, I wrote a lot of errors at first.
EDIT #3: Changed a bit Someone Wants You Dead. Now is a bit cheaper, needs to spot Thorin and is used at maneuver.
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- Beatdown Pack 3: I don't think I will make a Beatdown Pack 3. There will be a lot more interactions with other Shadows than for the Swarm Pack 3:
- Swarm Pack 3 (without Beatdown Pack 3): interactions with 4 other Shadows.
- Beatdown Pack 3: interactions with 9 other Shadows.
So, we can do Goblin Archers or Stone Giants as the 3rd Shadow of the Beatdown Pack 3. Or another one ?
- Add-ons: There will be 14 other cards to put for 2 players. But this will be a lot of new playtesting before printing it.... with only 6 supplementary cards for 2 players, the playtest began one year ago. Moreover, 3 boosters of 15 cards are enough for the players. There will be no add-ons, only new cards in the supplementary packs. Some situations of the list of missing things will probably not be in the Hobbit Draft Game.
- [Men] culture: not sure about making the [Dale] culture in the same way as the Smeagol/Gollum culture. The occurence of the Esgaroth pack in the draft will distort this Shadow.
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- Corrupted Dale Men: They must have a Site Number of 6. And I believe they shouldn't be too strong nor fierce or damage +1, for falvor's sake. Then, they must be really cheap and rely on punishing skills to counter that high site number. I think [Isengard] Men are a good precedent. But these will have a higher base strength and should have weapons.
They have 2 faces that can be recognized: 1. they are bullies that interrupt the Quest (and bother the people of Lake-town); 2. they steal the riches of Lake-town.
1st point can be represented by conditions played on characters (like Desertion), by blockage of special abilities (like Leechcraft) (they unabled Bard to face Smaug by imprisoning him), by exertng the Company or adding doubts, by returning or discarding weapons (like Where Has Grima Stowed It?)... etc.
2nd point is a damage to the resources, that can be portrayed by discard from draw deck (like Desperate Measures or Uruk Soldier).
A last thing: they musn't work along with Orcs (they aren't allies nor subjects of Orcs). So Orcs should be a discardable resource, like Spiders and Nazguls already do.
I made a version of Braga (based on Unferth), to show how the Evil Dale men might work:
[2] •Braga, Captain of the Lake-town Guard [Men]
Minion • Man
Strength 8 Vitality 3 Site Number 6
Each time the Free Peoples player assigns a companion or ally to a [Men] Man, that character must exert.
Each time an exhausted companion or ally is wounded by a Man minion, add a doubt instead.
"'What's going on here? Stay where you are. Nobody leaves.'"
So Braga is a bully like Unferth and has his grinding skill. The 2nd skill is there because the Guards weren't killers but only imprisoners; as such they interrupted the normal flow of the Quest as well as Bard's intervention (that interruption can be represented by doubts; too many interruptions = they forget about reaching Erebor at time). Of course both skills synergize, as the exertions will soon exhaust and then you'll reap a good bunch of doubts.
A weapon like this can be added to make them stronger:
[1] Sword of the Guard [Men]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be a Man minion.
Each character skirmishing bearer loses all strength bonuses from weapons and followers.
Shadow: Exert bearer to add [1].
"'We caught them stealing weapons, sire.'"
This weapon interferes with the FP weapons (and followers), so aims to the goal of Wormtongue and Where Has Grima Stowed It?, albeit by different means. Can be used also by Squint, Ferny and the condition-minion Someone Wants You Dead. The Shadow ability is a copy of Orc Taskmaster's; another Corrupted Man can make them unable to take wounds before during archery (or before skirmish), so exerting won't carry any risk.
- Bilbo's Pony: If there will be no more add-ons and no Riddles pack, I'd rather have something to portray Bilbo's pity (instead of a mount), which changed the fate of all Middle Earth:
Gandalf: "'My heart tells me that he (Gollum) has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many...'"
(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If he wins this skirmish, prevent all wounds to losing minions to heal Bilbo and remove a doubt once for each wound prevented this way.
You may exert Bilbo twice to play this event from your discard pile.
"'It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy...'"
It's a surviving tool, replayable from discard. And also removes a doubt and a wound from Bilbo (or 2 of each if bearing Bombur) if he wins the skirmish.
Note: you cannot prevent twice the same wound. Therefore, playing many copies won't stack the doubt/wound removing effect. So the replaying skill won't be useful to remove 2 or more burdens/wounds per wound prevented.
Hope this helps.
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Thank you. I made a first shot for this Shadow:
3x Gangsquad Member : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 6.
Each time a companion or ally loses a skirmish involving a [Men] minion, you may discard a weapon.
3x Gangsquad Lieutenant : Cost (3). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 6. Vitality 2. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Shadow: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow card from hand to play a [Men] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
3x Laketown Mercenary : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 4. Vitality 3. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Skirmish: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to return an exhausted companion (except Bilbo) to its owner's hand.
3x •Alfrid's influence : Cost (1). [Men] Condition - Support area.
The Free Peoples player must exert a companion to assign a minion having strength 6 or less to a skirmish.
Shadow: Remove [2] to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a minion, you may play a [Men] minion from your discard pile.
3x •Braga : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 6. Vitality 3. Site 6.
Skirmishes involving Braga must be resolved after any other.
Skirmish: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to make a [Men] minion strength +2.
But you're right, since the [Mirkwood] Shadow will probably not have possessions, we will need a possession in this Shadow.
And in the Esgaroth pack:
2x •Alfrid, Lickspittle : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 4. Vitality 3. Site 6.
Each time a [Dale] ally is assigned to a skirmish, exert each [Dale] ally.
Skirmish: Discard Alfrid to play a Shadow condition from your discard pile.
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Here are the objectives of the new cards.
There will be 4 new packs:
- Balin pack : Balin's abilty, Ori,...
- Elrond pack : Vilya, Lindir,...
- Blue Mountains Pack : Bombur, Bofur, Bifur, pack based on [Dwarven] followers.
- Travellers Pack : around Prancing Pony, multicultural pack.
FP Objectives:
- Balin+Ori interaction in the Balin pack, Blue Mountains, even Travellers.
- transfert without cost for [Dwarven] followers (Bofur rarely used).
- search [Dwarven] companions in the draw deck for two packs (Gandalf LoD).
- more heal for the Dwarves
- punish the fellowship when the FP player plays Gandalf or Dwarves after site 5
- punish the fellowship according to the number of deaths.
- fighting Bilbo (Sting rarely used)
- more heal for Gandalf
- more [Gandalf] events
- Gandalf LotC makes the deck more stable than the other Gandalf
Shadow Objectives:
- more Trolls (Dawn Take You All rarely used).
- Shadow possessions with powerful effects after archery phase (Nori's ability rarely used).
- use the wounds on Gandalf and on Bilbo.
- avoid Orcrist/make Thorin weaker.
- use the minions beneath the deck.
- play conditions from the discard pile, even from the draw deck.
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I'm sorry for this absense :(.
- Corrupted Men: I like the new ideas, though have some differences:
- The base strength is too low for site 6 minions (should range between 6 and 9).
- The referrence to "minions with strength X or lower" should be to "Man or Elf minions" instead: they had no alliance with Orcs and instead hated/feared them.
- Therefore, they should be discarding Orc cards in either play or hand as a resource to get bonuses. Moreover, it'd be nice if Men pick either Orcs from hand (like Attea and Toldea) or from play (like Spiders), and Elves pick the remaining option. (Note that Hatred Rekindled/Hosts of Thousands will be useful only with the discarding of Orcs from play).
- The names don't fit with a "bully police force" and their civilian informers. They weren't a Gangsquad but a corrupted police corporation ("Guards", "Soldiers"), and some and some civilian "Spies" or "Sneaks". The range of "Lieutenant" seems too high for a policeman/soldier in a small town, and even higher for a mere gangsta.
- The whole culture relies on a single card, the condition Alfrid's Influence. So it shouldn't be unique.
- Their low vitality is ok, but that can make them weak to unassigned archery (and will make them weak to direct archery/wounding). A Man can carry the text of "Man and Elf minions may not take wounds, except during skirmishes" (btw, that will make them even more distant to Orcs, which will take FP arrows).
Things I like:
- "Lurker" Braga is cool, in both strategy and lore. =D>
- The exerting-text you chose is better than the centralized Unferth effect I proposed.
- "Gangsquad Lieutenant" playing Alfrid's Influence from draw deck or discard pile is a simple way to start things from the beginning, and keep them working.
- Laketown Mercernary's skirmish skill is frightening! :twisted:
- The TUOM skill of Alfrid's Influence should have been used more by Decipher. Very creative! :)
So at first stance I'd change the names, make their base strength a bit higher, make Alfrid's Influence non-unique, and include the "Broad-bladed Sword" skill in "Gangsquad Member" (he has plenty of room) or in a new weapon.
Considering Alfrid's Influence will be played very soon, I'd change the passive skill: "Each time a companion or [Dale] ally heals, you may draw a card." Sanctuaries and Elrond will give you a fast set up, and this will allow you to build bigger decks. And you can also get Smaug sooner by drawing him, which pairs good with the low cost of these Men, and !the Master using the Company as a way to get Smaug's hunger satisfied for a while.
Hope this helps.
- New Objectives: Interesting. :up:. I like them. I love the idea of a new "Blue Mountains" pack ;D! I'll be writing more about those points you listed during the next days, probably.
- transfer without cost for [Dwarven] followers (Bofur rarely used)
- more heal for the Dwarves
- (Nori's ability rarely used)
I made this card for the Blue Mountains pack, to solve those 3 points:
[2] Loyalty, Honor, A Willing Heart [Dwarven]
Event • Maneuver
Attach X [Dwarven] followers from your support area to your companions (without paying their aid cost) to heal X wounds from Dwarf companions.
"'I would take each and every one of these Dwarves over an army from the Iron Hills. For when I called upon them, they answered... I can ask no more than that.'"
The 2 main problems of having 4+ [Dwarven] followers in play are the decision of which of them must be used (and which not), and the counter you created to prevent such long maneuver phases: Orkish Marauder. This card counters both, so you can play every [Dwarven] follower and use them without problems (or long decisions) if you carry this event, or discard some of them at fellowship phase with Thorin if you don't. That way, the Blue Mountains pack will be the only pack using all [Dwarven] followers you have, which is according to the flavor of the "exiled Dwarves" theme.
This card will also heal. And healing will get more use to Nori's skill (which exerts too much). 3 birds with a single stone!
- fighting Bilbo (Sting rarely used)
Also A Took in the Travellers pack will give Bilbo much more use. And can feed Sting also: 1st you use any [Dwarven] skirmish event (much better if is Noble Intentions, but Battle Fury/Never Forgave will do), then you play Also A Took, and then if Bilbo wins you recover that [Dwarven] event (or any other [Dwarven] card), AND trigger Sting's condition discard. If that [Dwarven] card is Noble Intentions, you can use Bilbo (and Sting's skill) again at a fierce skirmish.
Pity (the card I proposed to replace Bilbo's Pony) should also make Bilbo a much more frequent fighter. It can be used from discard pile, and if Bilbo wins he will heal 1 or those 2 wounds for playing it from discard. Bilbo's Pony is much more stable, but is also much weaker. And much more irrelevant, lore-wise.
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Thank you for your propositions.
- I will probably change the [Men] Shadow. It depends on the structure of the other Shadows of the packs. [Moria] Stone Giants (15 cards) and Mirkwood Elves (10 cards) seems to be the only remaining Shadows.
- Nice for the objectives, but this [Dwarven] event you propose is too strong. We have to balance it.
- Ok, but for the fighting Bilbo, it will be much more simpler with [Dwarven] events boosting Bilbo. But I don't think you want to have Also a Took and Pity as [Dwarven] cards? :p
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About the [Moria] Stone Giants, they didn't fight the Company in the book, and weren't really important in the film. To be consistent with the book, they should be really strong minions but discardable (or avoidable) by paying an alternative cost, like "add a doubt" or "make the move limit -1", and as such they will seldom fight. I've not seen yet your ideas about Stone Giant minions, but the notion I have doesn't convince me at all.
Smaug lacks a lot of things. He has no Fire-breath, no armor condition/possession to prevent non-[Dale] wounds, very few mind games and manipulation tricks... He NEEDS a card like The Witch King's Beast, to allow him to skirmish more than 2 times per turn.
Sauron doesn't have anything portraying his plans. Look at this card proposition:
[2] A Plan Long In The Making [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Heal X Free Peoples characters to add [X] and place X cards from your discard pile on top of your draw deck (except Smaug).
Each player reconciles. Players may play cards and use special abilities as if it were the Fellowship or Shadow phase.
"'Our enemy has summoned his full strength.'"
So the Enemy gives the FP a "calm before the storm", where the good guys heal and play new cards, but meanwhile the Shadow musters a large and frightening army. You get the things you need back from discard, and the Maneuver phase becomes at the same time a new fellowship phase and a new shadow phase. Obviously, the twilight added by the FP cards will be useful to the Shadow players. I believe it's perfect for a Site 9 kill, even if you didn't do much harm at the previous sites (but the FP side still has surviving chances by healing and playing new reinforcements).
Well, my point is that Sauron can have many tricks and minions like that, even without having to be present at all. Even [Sauron] wounding Orcs like Orc War Band and Orc Cutthroat, and other grinding tricks!
- Loyalty, Honor, A Willing Heart: Yes, it is really strong. A way to balance it might be to discard X cards from hand (thus limiting your other tricks, especially skirmish events, and weakening your Shadow side):
"Discard X cards from hand to attach X [Dwarven] followers to your companions (without paying their aid cost) and heal X wounds from [Dwarven] companions."
- Also A Took & Pity: That'd be really nasty :twisted:! But Pity can be played from discard (by exerting twice), so it might be too much with Sting. Also A Took seems less likely to be overpowered...
- Terrifying Legend: Hmmm, I know this is an old topic, but I believe it's fairly overpowered and misaimed. It has no alternative cost, so [Dale] Men will die with ease; many Main deck Orcs have 3 vitality, and Trolls/Nazgul/Wargriders will feast (moreover those that trigger when winning a skirmish, like Bolg son of Azog, Gollum and Tom). AND this card can be used by other minions than Smaug, which is really unconsistent with the lore and flavor.
An option is to include an alternative cost: "That ally may discard to prevent that", or "The Free Peoples player may... to prevent that":
- exert 2 companions
- exert a companion twice
- discard 2 cards from hand (at the assignment phase the FP player shouldn't have many cards in hand)
- exert another ally...
But that bloats the text a lot. And still a [Gundabad] Orc using this skill seems like the assault of Bolg's Hunters at Esgaroth, which is isn't bad in itself BUT is a very different thing than Smaug's destruction of the Lake-town. With all those reasons in mind, I propose this:
[2] Terrifying Legend [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
Each time a minion overwhelms a companion or ally, you may discard a possession (and wound an ally if you spot Smaug).
Regroup: Exert Smaug twice to suspend this phase and make him participate in one additional assignment and skirmish phase. Then, resume the current phase.
"'I kill where I wish and none dare resist!'"
EDIT: Clarified the wording of the Regroup skill. That doesn't increase the number of lines is uses (4).
The regroup skill is an imitation of The Witch King's Beast, which I believe is what should do a trick for Smaug: allow him to kill and kill again. Being a regroup action, Bard's skill can try to stop him first (but if you overwhelm 2 characters first (or 1 character with 2 copies in play), Smaug will exhaust/kill him, and "none will dare resist"!).
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Here's an example of what the Stone Giants would look like:
3x Granit Giant : Cost (12). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 12. Vitality 3. Site 4.
At a mountain site, this minion is twilight cost -6.
This minion may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Archery: Exert this minion and discard a card at random from hand. If it is a Shadow card, play a [Moria] possession from your draw deck or discard pile.
3x Lavastone Giant : Cost (16). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 16. Vitality 4. Site 4.
At a mountain site, this minion is twilight cost -8.
This minion may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Archery: Exert this minion and discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a Shadow card, play a [Moria] possession from your draw deck or discard pile.
3x Stone returns to Earth : Cost (0). [Moria] Event - Archery.
You may remove from the game 4 Shadow cards from your discard pile to play this event from your discard pile.
Discard a minion to draw X cards, where X is this minion's vitality. Then, you may play a minion.
3x Overhanging Rock: Cost (0). [Moria] Possession. Vitality +1.
Bearer must be a [Moria] Giant.
At the end of the archery phase, you may exert 2 [Moria] Giants to exert a companion.
Archery: Exert bearer and discard this possession to take a Giant from your discard pile into hand.
3x Boulder Rock: Cost (1). [Moria] Possession. Vitality +2.
Bearer must be a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to make the minion archery total +2.
- With this version of Terrifying Legend, only Smaug can be assigned to [Dale] allies... We need something usable for most of the Shadows. Btw, all cards from the Smaug Shadow could be changed ;).
- These events for Bilbo would be [Dwarven] then?
- I don't like this [Sauron] event at all (changing too much the rules isn't a good idea), instead of which card you want to put this event? The Sauron card itself describes really well his plans and how he manages all this.
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Edited my version of Terrifying Legend above, to make the wording of the Regroup skill much easier to understand.
- Stone Giant minions: Really interesting! Such a new way of playing minions! Of course they'll need playtesting, but seems like a great new form of working with archery. =D>
I believe the pack has 2 solvable problems: 1) they are very expensive and there is only 6 minions in the whole draft, so getting them at time will be difficult (unless you add a way to get them from draw deck), and 2) your draw deck will be discarded very fast by Stone Returns to Earth and the 2 Giants (unless you add a mechanism to get cards back to main deck). Of course, problem #2 can be countered by building really big decks, but that only worsens problem #1. So those mechanisms to get them soon and return discarded cards must be added in this sub-pack (or in another sub-pack of Beatdown pack 3).
I've been toying with an idea... I'd change the archery skill of Boulder Rock a bit: instead of directly "making the Shadow archery total +2", it might allow the FP player to choose instead to allow bearer to fight :twisted:. That can be done like Saruman's Staff or Phial of Galadriel Star-glass, if you interchange the order of the 2 passive senteces in each Giant ("This minion may not..." must be the first):
[1] Boulder Rock [Moria]
Possession
Strength +2 Vitality +2
Bearer must be a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to make the Free Peoples player choose to either make the minion archery total +2 or remove the first sentence of bearer's game text until the regroup phase.
The text seems long but uses only 6 lines (still has some room for lore text). Since bearer's first sentence can be removed only once, if that happens and the Giant bears more Rocks, all remaining Rocks can be discarded for automatic +2 archery or be left there to add +2 strength each. That strength bonus also will make the idea of allowing the Giant to fight much more fightening (so the chances increase that the FP player will choose to add archery).
Hope this helps.
- [Dwarven] Also a Took: Yes! :up: It'll make Bilbo really an interesting choice for skirmishes. ;D Let it be Dwarven!
- [Dwarven] Pity: :evil: No, this one will be really overpowered. Because can be player from discard. And the idea of playing it from discard is, to allow Bilbo to survive better and win more skirmishes (and remove some doubts by the way). Lamentably seems too perilous for the balance and good playing experience. :(
- Blue Mountains pack: About the [Dwarven] event to attach followers for free, I suggested a way to balance it and would like to hear your opinion ;). In short terms, you need to also discard X cards from hand, which limits your Shadow cards and/or your FP events (Skirmish/Regroup tricks):
"Discard X cards from hand to attach X [Dwarven] followers to your companions (without paying their aid cost) and heal X wounds from [Dwarven] companions."
The pack will probably need a weapon. I believe a "Dwarven Warhammer" would fit well with the theme of the "fierce exiled smiths", a heavy and expensive weapon costing [2] or [3] but with a fixed damage +1 bonus, and some other text. Or a "Dwarven Knife" bearable with another weapon:
[1] Dwarven Knife [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Each minion skirmishing bearer is strength -1.
"'Careful with these. I just had them sharpened.'"
Useful with defender bonuses, and with a Dwarf you want to protect from being swarmed (like Fili the protector). And Dwalin defender +2! (if bearing 2, -2 strength to each minion he faces; as such, can be better on Bilbo's Balin's pack). Might even discard itself to wound an Orc in the skirmish ("Skirmish: Discard this weapon to wound an Orc skirmishing bearer")...
- [Sauron] A Plan Long in the Making: The idea was to include it in either a "Battle of the Five Armies" FP pack, or in a "Sauron Pack 2" pack in a Beatdown or Swarm pack. (I know, none of those packs exists yet.) A Sauron Pack 2 can be based on the skirmish direct wounding [Sauron] Orcs: Orc Soldier, Orc Hunters, Orc War Band and Orc Cutthroat (and Mordor's Strength). I made an armor possession for that purpose, usable by any Orc (like Goblin Footman):
[1] Dol Guldur Armor [Sauron]
Possession • Armor
Strength +1
Bearer must be an Orc.
Response: If bearer is about to take a wound, discard this armor to prevent it.
Skirmish: Remove [2] and discard this armor to wound a character skirmishing bearer.
"'...the gateway to reclaiming the lands of Angmar...'"
A built-in Mordor's Strength (or Whirling Strike), with another skill to prevent a wound (useful against Orcrist, as you want).
About the [Sauron] event A Plan Long in the Making, it only does 5 things and only the last 2 can be considered troublesome:
1.- Adds twilight.
2.- Puts cards on the top of your deck.
3.- Makes players reconcile hand.
4.- Makes cards that must be played at a specific phase (fellowship or shadow) may be played at another phase (maneuver). It's the same as adding each card a text like Long Spear's (but without cost): "You play this card anytime you could play a maneuver event".
5.- Allows special abilities of specific phases (fellowship and shadow) to be used at another phase (maneuver).
Decipher made cards that do all those things, except #5:
1.- No explanation needed.
2.- On Your Doorstep, We Will Meet Again Soon...
3.- Under Foot, Lembas, Lembas Bread, Secluded Homestead...
4.- Great Heart, Long Spear, Dernhelm's Blade, For the Mark...
5.- None (so far as I know)
So the most and perhaps only controversial point is number 5: using special abilities outside their specific phase. So I remove that point. (The reason I added it was to use Shadow abilities like Hatred Rekindled, but considering you can get back the specific cards you want from discard, you won't need Hatred Rekindled to get Orcs from discard).
[2] A Plan Long In The Making [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Heal X Free Peoples characters to add X and place X cards from your discard pile on top of your draw deck (except Smaug).
Each player reconciles hand. Players may play cards as if it were the Fellowship or the Shadow phase.
"'Our enemy has summoned his full strength.'"
It's very costly: only [1] and 1 card returned from discard for each character you heal. That means this card will be useless at the early game, because allies and companions must accumulate wounds to be effective. It also costs [2], which means you need to heal 3 or more companions/allies to start adding twilight. And the FP player will know what cards you are returning to deck, so will be warned when deciding what cards should play and what should not (that can represent Gandalf telling them about the coming Army)...
All in all, the FP player gets:
- a lot of healing,
- reconciles,
- can play cards drawn when reconciling.
The Shadow player gets:
- cards from discard (at a very high price),
- some twilight to play them (to muster a larger force),
- some additional twilight the FP player may be adding.
That's all. Decipher created cards twisted the rules even more: A Dark Shape Sprang, Return to its Master, Whisper in the Dark, The Witch King's Beast are some examples.
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- The new Terrifying Legend is more complicated than before, and we can't use it with other Shadows...
- The Boulder Rock is now more complicated. When you propose a card, try to avoid any "or", "and", "either" or so. One simple goal for one card is much more playable and understable rather than complicated cards with subsections.
I will try to have most of the different parts of the movies and the book with 12 Supplementary packs, 3 Beatdown packs and 2 Swarm packs. That's all. If we use the Dol Guldur Armor, it will be in these packs, according to the previous objectives.
- I will probably change the text of Pity for an event using Sting or Noble Intentions (both rarely used).
- Btw, it's a first test for the [Mirkwood] Shadow (I didn't change the [Uruk] template seen behind yet.
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FCards_Good_def%2FTest.png&hash=bd363ba80988370282abe712830dff0347e73c0f)
And the card of Braga
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhobbitdraftgame.free.fr%2FCards_Good_def%2FBraga.png&hash=118edadc310afe77c9d83a53b1e553d173b088e2)
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- Terrifying Legend: The regroup skill was written twice above, sorry :(. The active skill is based on A Dark Shape Sprang, I don't think it is confusing.
No, the passive skill can be used by ANY Shadow (works anytime a FP character is overwhelmed). And the active skill works with Smaug, but all decks have access to Smaug (and he gets relatively cheap at the late game) so it shouldn't be a problem. I believe that having Smaug fighting 1 or 2 times more can be even more useful than Azog Servant of Sauron.
To make the card more useful without Smaug on the board, the trigger of the passive skill might can be changed from "each time a companion or ally is overwhelmed" to "each time a minion kills a character in its skirmish". The normal effect (without Smaug) can be "wound an ally" to counter the Dale allies, while by spotting Smaug would also "discard a possession":
[2] Terrifying Legend [No Culture]
Condition • Support Area
Each time a minion kills a character in its skirmish, you may wound an ally (and discard a possession if you spot Smaug).
Regroup: Exert Smaug twice to suspend this phase and make him participate in one additional assignment and skirmish phase. Then, resume the current phase.
"'Who are you that would stand against me?!'"
The need of a Shadow card to allow Dale allies to fight is reduced significatively by the FP cards that do so: Bard (allows Esgaroth Volunteers), Baïn (allows Bard) and Percy (+ a weapon, allows bearer). If they don't want to fight, you can still wound them with Terrifying Legend (or Narzug).
But a small skill can be added anyway (by removing the lore text): "[Dale] allies may participate is skirmishes." Btw, changed the lore text, because the previous is already on Twisted Gold of Dragon.
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The effect and the benefits for the other Shadows is too much reduced, I don't think a player who will not play the Smaug Shadow will take this card to counter the [Dale] allies and the [Dale] possessions :(.
The card could be changed with a general effect which would be a bit simpler to use for the Smaug Shadow.
I know Decipher changes the rules with some cards, but they are very rare... I think the easiest way to make cards is to point clearly the goal of a card. Most cards from LOTR TCG have only one goal (and often one simple sentence).
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- Terrifying Legend: With ANY shadow deck Smaug will appear at site 8 and wreak havoc. With this condiiton, if he kills X characters you will wound any ally X times + discard X possessions, just before site 9 when you need to erase all ally/possession support to defeat Bilbo. If Smaug survives both skirmishes and can exert twice, he'll fight again and probably will kill another guy, then wound another ally + discard another possession...
That's true for all Shadow decks. Besides, any time ANY minion kills a FP guy in a skirmish, you will wound an ally (that limits cannon fodder allies a lot). There's also Alfrid to counter allies, or to return any condition into play. And yes, this condition will be really powerful with the Smaug pack making him appear repeated times, but the same synergy happens when the Sauron pack coincides with the White Council pack.
I've been rethinking the Regroup skill and it should be a Response action, otherwise Bard's regroup skill will prevent it with ease. Bard already has the Black Arrow, and with Kili and Dawn Take You All can prevent Smaug from having spare vitality at regroup (and even from skirmishing).
"Response: If all fierce skirmishes have been resolved, exert Smaug twice to make him participate in one additional assignment and skirmish phase."
- Nenya: Taking only [Gandalf] spells is the simplest way to fix the abuse of AWINL and He Gives Me Courage. :up: But also excludes Former !Herald, which is a really important card as the pack doesn't have Spears of Axes to give a permanent reinforce to any companion, except only Gandalf; all other help is temporary: Galadriel and the 2 maneuver events. And while Galadriel stays those 2 events are discarded instead, so those events must have good replaying methods, and Nenya gets back only 1. Before Nenya there was Lindir, who like Galadriel helped in skirmishes and stayed in the board. Fighting allies will be useful, if not necessary, to counter big minions and moreover swarms.
The solution is simple: "Exert Galadriel and add [2] to take a [Gandalf] spell (or Former Herald) from your draw deck into your hand."
Former !Herald should have always been a spell: it's aggressive just like the other spells, and though Wise elves weren't wizards they were sorcerers too (users of spiritual knowledge, forces and techniques, that's Tolkien's concept of "magic"). But this forced inclusion should fix that.
Lore text: this point is not significant, but the lore text you chose is already used by Decipher's Nenya. A different quote can be nice for a good bunch of players. Frodo talks about Galadriel's Ring while in the shores of the Anduin (after the attack of the Orcs + Winged Nazgul), and Aragorn tells him to shut up... they were talking about how things are worn down in the world: "'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'"
We can reduce it to "'The power of the Lady... wields the Elven-ring.'"
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- Terrifying Legend: I propose you to change Wrath of the Dragon instead of Terrifying Legend. The Smaug Shadow can now use this ability every time.
- Nenya: I think [2] and an exert on Balin to have a strength 11 free ally every turn is too much. The Horn of Boromir is really powerful in LOTR TCG and X-listed in all formats (except FOTR). Nenya seems balanced now. The power of the Elven rings is in Gathering of the three Rings.
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I'm sorry for this long absence. I couldn't use my computer (the ac adapter was burned :(), and my health was a bit more stubborn than usually.
- Nenya: Hmm, you are right. Let it as it is! But please consider the lore text suggestion.
- Wrath of the Dragon: Interesting! I like it. But now the Smaug pack won't have a skill to discard [Dwarven] artifacts at Shadow phase, which was an important part of the pack. The solution is adding it to Twisted Gold of Dragon, which still has 2 free lines (or 3 lines if you remove either the lore text, or the words "from play" in the Shadow skill). That should do it.
With the new text, I believe another picture showing Smaug spitting flames will be more according to this new Wrath of the Dragon.
- Terrifying Legend: I still have a discordance with the current Terrifying Legend, because the gametext has no Smaug flavor in my opinion. The active skill mainly does what Bolg's Hunting party did at Esgaroth, which is fine but then the other skill should represent Smaug's character in a much stronger way.
And the passive skill looks very superficial, because it's really hard to trigger: you require a 12+ str minion figthing an ally to get an overwhelming, because all fighting allies will be str 6+: Bard unarmed is 6, Esgaroth Volunteers unarmed is 6, and Baïn (with Percy) + Iron Weapon is 6 too. Then there is Take Up Arms to ruin your goal. Overwheming is hard even to Smaug, due to cards like Thorin + Orcrist, Dori, pumps, other followers... So I'd much rather use those 3 lines for something stronger specific for Smaug, like this:
"Each time Smaug kills a character who is skirmishing him, discard a [Dale] possession or wound an ally twice (except Bard)".
Killing by any means (not only overwhelming) means that if the FP player uses allies or weak companions to face Smaug, you'll discard possessions or kill allies just before the definitive site 9.
- Balin or Blue Mountains pack: I made this card to help the use of Balin, followers, fighting Bilbo, healing and To Me! O My Kinsfolk!:
[1] Dwarven Fiddle [Dwarven]
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf, heal bearer.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to take into hand a non-maneuver [Dwarven] event from your draw deck (limit 1).
"The dark filled all the room, and the fire died down, and the shadows were lost, and still they played on."
There is a really nice part when Dwalin handles a violin (AUJ EE 27:46). Bofur plays a flute, we can make a "Dwarven Flute" instrument possession too.
Each Fiddle player can get only 1 [Dwarven] event per turn. The more Dwarf musicians, more events you will get into hand. You take those events from draw deck only, so to recycle events you'll need to use Balin's skill (which is something you wanted).
Bearer will heal each time a Dwarf joins the Company (including followers). So Balin can return a copy of To Me! O My Kinsfolk! to deck, a Fiddle player can get it to hand, and then use it to replay a Dwarf follower AND heal whatever Dwarf is bearing it (which can be Balin at that right time, to remove his exertion ;)). Therefore followers will get more presence and importance (and Thorin can regulate them), Dwarves will get more healing, To Me! O My Kinsfolk! gets more importance as you wanted...
Of course it can get any other event instead. Like Noble Intentions to protect Bilbo or make him even win skirmishes (and use Sting's skill!), or a [Dwarven] pump make a Dwarf tougher in battle. But those don't play play Dwarves so then the exertion won't be healed by the Fiddle.
The idea of excluding maneuver events is to prevent dangerous tricks like Ancient Knowledge from being abused. All other [Dwarven] events have a moderate impact (even !Du Bekâr due to its high cost). You can change it to take a "fellowship or regroup [Dwarven] event" if you want, to also exclude !Du Bekâr and pumps.
Hope you like it.
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I hope your health will get better soon.
I change and make some cards: Pity, Thror's Throne, Northern Slopes, Alfrid, Caught in a Sack (only [Troll] will be not enough used if the Beatdown Pack 1 doesn't appear) and Terrifying Legend. Tell me what you think about them.
I will probably change a bit the cards of the Smaug Shadow soon.
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I hope your health will get better soon.
Thank you my friend. The same I hope, my health gets sometimes very unstable and that's uncomfortable but doesn't threaten me really. ;)
I change and make some cards: Pity, Thror's Throne, Northern Slopes, Alfrid, Caught in a Sack (only [Troll] will be not enough used if the Beatdown Pack 1 doesn't appear) and Terrifying Legend. Tell me what you think about them.
Those are great, I have only small remarks to do in some cases.
- Thrór's Throne: Simply brilliant! =D> The FP Arkenstone gets more importance, while the Shadow one gets more power. Btw, I still think the Shadow Arkenstone should be different (but I won't post the supporting reasons right now).
- Terrifying Legend and Alfrid: Both look very good now. :up: Alfrid seems balanced, has good flavor and counters very well the FP side. Terrifying Legend is now much more "Smaug-esque" and punishes both the Company and the allies in different ways (and also incorporates Bolg's assault). :up: :up: :up:
But Terrifying Legend has a small error: the active skill says "and assign this minion to skirmish that ally", but should say "assign that minion".
- Caught in a Sack: Seems very good. But worries me a bit that Azog's Swarm army will be exerting a Demolition Troll to use it... I mean, exerting a minion is balanced for Beatdown shadows, but Swarm shadows should discard a minion to unable a Dwarf to fight (Dwalin for instance). You can even discard Narzug and trigger it. The [Troll] Trolls already discard Orcs to get played, so forcing them to discard another minion would be excessive; on the other hand, Swarm shadows don't have that problem and removing a defender should have the cost of removing also a minion.
A last point: should this event affect Gandalf? Gandalf was always above all enemies' intelligence and tricks (in The Hobbit at least), so perhaps should be only "a [Dwarven] or [Shire] companion".
- Northern Slopes: Very nice idea, I like it A LOT. :up: But it doesn't specify who exerts those characters, it should say "the first Shadow player" or something. Unfortunately that will make the text much longer. You can shorten it by changing "[Dwarven] character" to "Dwarf" (followers can't exert or take wounds), and changing "each time the fellowship moves" to "when the fellowship moves". Anyway, it'll be still too long :(. But a shorter alternative like this should be ok:
"Mountain. Battleground. Shadow: Exert a [Dwarven] character for each Shadow culture you can spot (limit once per turn)."
It can't be abused and any Shadow player can use it ;).
- Pity: The picture is really good. But I miss the replay part, which is very important to make Bilbo's fighting and suriving skill viable. Also I believe it should heal Bilbo, or any companion, but limiting it to [Dwarven] companion seems to me a bit out of context. And it should give strength +3, as he won't kill any minion facing him (and it isn't [Dwarven] to trigger Sting, so Noble Intentions will still have that advantage).
What do you think about the Dwarven Fiddle? You still don't mention anything.
As always, hope this helps.
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I didn't say anything at the moment, but the [Men] template looks very good on Braga! Likewise, the [Uruk] template looks good on the Mirkwood shadow. :up:
Just noticed, you changed some [Gundabad] cards for [Mirkwood] ones. Ancient Feuds seems great, but might be better by removing [3] instead of [2]: Guard Commander is often played with no other minion, to keep twilight for an easy overwhelm. I know this card has a limit per Dwarf, but if you can repeat this for every Dwarf too cheaply, the effect will be equally devastating (and like Enduring Evil, reducing strength is really good for overwhelming).
Moreover, having multiple copies bypasses the limit (like TMAYOD) which is really perilous, not only in constructed games but also if while drafting the same player gets the 2 copies; making it unique can correct that. But unique or not, it can stack with Smaug pack's Dissension if both packs meet, so raising the cost to [3] will be more balanced.
War for Gold seems great too. The skirmish action will be useful mostly at the end, that's good for flavor. :up:
About the Smaug Shadow, you changed Smaug's Awakening to be an event. That's nice! :up: Now will depend more on Watchful Orc to be played at early game. I only fear that making him strength -5 will be too much, -4 will be more balanced I think: by making him str -5 (str 12), Thorin + Orcrist + 2 [Dwarven] followers (str 13 or 14) will defeat him with ease.
I like that Wrath of the Dragon now allows Smaug to play many conditions from discard. :up: Perhaps it should be non-unique, as they will rarely stack (Smaug'd need to be unwounded at regroup, to exert 4 times). But having many copies in play allows you to protect or replay your conditions much better (one replays the other, if one is discarded).
I think Smaug should be able to discard [Dwarven] artifacts undirectly, as the old version of Wrath of the Dragon did (I think it was "Shadow: Remove a doubt and exert Smaug to make the Free Peoples player discard a [Dwarven] artifact", it can be key at Shadow to play the evil Arkenstone). Twisted Gold of Dragon has still some room to add a skill.
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Hello Durin's Heir, I'm glad to hear from you again ;).
Ok I change most of the cards as you expected.
- Pity: only +2 in strength, otherwise Noble Intentions will be too weak ([Dwarven] culture is not enough). I don't think the replay part is necessary, removing a lot of doubts with this strategy could be too strong. It's ok now.
- Wrath of the Dragon: with the new Shadow effect, the text was far too long (7 full lines). I propose a much simpler version with the same Shadow effect (good for other Shadows to counter-draft).
- Twisted Gold of Dragon: the [Dwarven] support area artifacts are weak in this game. So now, I don't think it's a good idea of discarding it. In order to play the Arkenstone first, I change the first part of the card.
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Hello Durin's Heir, I'm glad to hear from you again ;).
Thank you my friend. I'm glad to hear from you too. But I won't be posting too frequently due to time problems :(.
I will only talk about Pity by now.... Wrath of the Dragon and Twisted Gold will have to wait. The rest looks very good.
- Pity: Ok for +2 strength :up:. But the replay part is totally necessary to make Bilbo a significatively better fighter. I agree that the doubt remotion can be easily abused, so Pity must provide another effect when Bilbo wins (besides, the Accorn already removes doubts)... what then?
Look at Riddles in the Dark... if Bilbo loses a riddle game, there is no way to recover The One Ring (or Sting, or Burglar's Contract...). So Pity might "play a [Shire] card from your discard pile". Or even better, "take a [Shire] card into hand from discard pile", which forces you to wait until next turn to play a [Shire] item or follower (less pleasant but prevents abusing the Accorn ;)), and allows you to interact also with events like Barrels, Skillful Negociator and even another copy of Pity for double moves or the next turn.
I'd change also the replaying cost to "discard 3 cards from hand", because this pack already exerts too much (3 other cards exert Bilbo, and 1 exerts the dwarves) and doesn't heal. That way drawing cards becomes more important: Ori (+ his best friend Balin) and Barrels will help Bilbo to fight. On the other hand, discarding cards from hand weakens your Shadow side, can consume too soon your resources (decking out) and limits the use of your other FP resources in hand.
(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +2. If he wins this skirmish, you may prevent all wounds to losing minions to take into hand a [Shire] card from your discard pile.
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
"'It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy.'"
You made optional the "if he wins" trigger ("you may"), which is really good to make clear to players that the wound prevention trigger happens only once, no matter how many copies of Pity you (re)played.
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I was working these ideas for a long time, please take a look and let me know what you think.
- Copying the gametext of sites: In the old FOTR block Hobbit Farmer, Silinde and Uruviel MoL provided a mechanic to copy the text of sites 1, 3 and 6. It was really cool but lamentably was abandoned soon. I believe it'd be really nice if we include it in the HDG; the site cards would get much more importance in the draft.
A way to include that mechanic (without changing any current card) is to have 4 new different cards that mimick a site, and each player picks 1 randomly (just like the 4 different versions of Gandalf and Bilbo). The cards would look like this:
[2] •Lobelia Sackville-baggins, Bilbo's Covetous Cousin [Shire]
Ally • Site 1 • Hobbit
Strength: 2 Vitality: 3
Lobelia Sackville-baggins has the game text of site 1.
Fellowship: Exert Bilbo to replace an opponent's site 1 with your own site 1.
"'Lobelia again most likely,' he thought. 'She must have thought of something really nasty, and have come back again to say it. It can wait.'"
While Hobbit Farmer et al targeted only sites good to the FP side (and only your own sites), we might also use that mechanic to help the Shadow side (I always wanted a card that copied Moria Stairway :'(). So those 4 randomly-picked cards might be 2 FP and 2 Shadow. Those Shadow cards might look like this:
[2] •Things Still Unnamed [Gollum]
Condition • Support Area
Shadow: Transfer this condition to a mountain or underground site. This condition gains that site's game text.
Skirmish: At an underground, exert a minion twice to make it strength +2.
"Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living..."
So this condition can copy the text of Smaug's Den... but first site 8 must be already in play, which limits the possible abuses (Watchful Orc can help at site 7 to see 1 site ahead). Other useful sites to copy are Thrór's Throne, Northern Slopes, Dale, Erebor... even Wooded Steep Cliff if you can transfer this card before the fellowship moves there.
So... what do you think?
- Elrond's Pack: I wonder what direction will take this pack. We know of 2 tools to include for Elrond (Vilya and Hadafang) and there's Lindir, but there's still nothing more. For the remaining 3 FP cards, I've been thinking in these 3 different !paths to follow:
- [Gandalf] It might focus on the White Council meeting, including Saruman (another version) + his Staff. Lindir needs Wise characters, and the pack still doesn't include a 3rd Wise character to spot, so Saruman would come in handy. Saruman then would be heading the attack on Dol Guldur.
- [Gondor] It might focus on the Northern Dúnedain (allies and friends of Elrond and Gandalf), there are 2 things respecting them indeed present in the Hobbit films: the Shards of Narsil and the "Company of Northern Dúnedain" (a Man follower or ally, there's a picture of them burying the Witch King ;)). Those cards can bridge the races of Elves and Men, a sort of "Last Alliance" or HIDAN theme.
- [Elven] It can simply focus on elven things. Tools, events, characters, followers: an "Elven Cavalry", a "Steed of Rivendell", "Musical Elves" or so... Bows? Swords? Spears? Banners? "Green Food"? Events to heal, to play sites (Elrond reads Thrór's Map), something about Glamdring and Orcrist perhaps, the dwarves closing ranks at Thorin's command... My imagination is running dry :(...
About the Shadow, I believe it should be Sauron himself (Elrond's worst nightmare!). Another version of him, just like Azog and Bolg have new versions in the add-ons of the Thrain and Mirkwood packs. I'd accompany Sauron with his terrible servants:
[9] •Sauron, Still Uncomplete [Sauron]
Minion • Maia
Strength 15 Vitality 4 Site 5
Fierce. Damage +1.
Wise allies may participate in skirmishes.
Sauron is strength +1 and twilight cost -1 for each Ring artifact you can spot.
"'Don't be absurd! He is an enemy quite beyond the powers of all the Dwarves put together, if they could all be collected again from the four corners of the world.'"
A straightforward beatdown Sauron. The pack'd provide 2 rings (Vilya and... see below!), + The One Ring (main deck) so Sauron might reach a strength of 18 (to overwhelm Gandalf + Glamdring if not bearing a follower); the more rings he can spot, the less "uncomplete" he will be). If meets the Sauron Pack, every part of the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór would be useful: +1 strength, a total of damage +2, and the assignment skill would make Sauron's presence won't be calling Wise allies to the fight.
(A side note: I really love that quote of Gandalf at the Unexpected Party!)
(0) •Nine for !Mortal Men Doomed to Die [Wraith]
Artifact • Ring
Plays to your support area.
Maneuver: Remove [4] to make until the regroup phase this artifact a fierce, damage +1 Nazgûl minion that has 10 strength and 1 vitality, and cannot take wounds. This card is still an artifact.
"'...proud and great, and so ensnared them.'"
I'm a bit obsessed with that mechanic, but seems to me perfect to portray these unkillable, unstoppable servants. This is like twilight Nelya with 2 burdens, but truly immortal (except if overwhelmed). Of course, Thorin can easily defeat this Nazgûl, but then he won't be able to face other threatening minions ;). It'll be useful not only for beatdown shadows, but for swarm decks too as the cost is low and paid during maneuver, and doesn't need to be in hand. A last thing: if meets the Nazgûl pack, can bear a Dol Guldur Blade for a total str 12 dmg+1, which won't be discarded after the turn ends (a good reason to use Nori's skill).
Again... what do you say?
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Thank you for your proposition. I was on vacation last 10 days.
I think the strength +2 is redundant if it can be played from the discard pile. In an emergency case at site 9, you can discard you hand to make easily Bilbo strength +4/+6 and with Dori it's really strong.
I propose this : there isn't always a [Shire] card in the discard pile and Bilbo's pity helps all the [Dwarven] Company.
(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Response
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
If Bilbo wins a skirmish, prevent all wounds to losing minions to take into hand a [Dwarven] or [Shire] card from your discard pile.
"'It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy.'"
EDIT : I just saw your new post, I will answer later. I think Burning Fir Cones will be in the Elrond Pack. So, we have a slot for a new card in the Wizard Pack for Beorn or Radagast (like your healing [Gandalf] spell) ?
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Thank you for your proposition. I was on vacation last 10 days.
Cheers my good friend! :up: ;)
I think the strength +2 is redundant if it can be played from the discard pile. In an emergency case at site 9, you can discard you hand to make easily Bilbo strength +4/+6 and with Dori it's really strong.
I propose this : there isn't always a [Shire] card in the discard pile and Bilbo's pity helps all the [Dwarven] Company.
Good point. Interesting new version. But Also A Took will be taking a [Dwarven] card from discard pile, so seems a bit similar. I believe it can be too weak if only triggered when Bilbo wins the skirmish. It can do something different than giving strength to Bilbo, something like "Skirmish: Heal Bilbo. If he wins this skirmish...". Discard 3 cards = heal Bilbo; abuse it and your Shadow will be weak, abuse it further and the deck will just dissapear...
That's only a quick idea. But the pack doesn't provide a single way to heal wounds, and 4 cards already exert so some healing for Bilbo will be good to make the rest of the cards much better (besides your good point that having such resource in discard pile is always very useful). And if Bilbo will need to win skirmishes, that means he'll be often in the front line, so he will get wounds from fighting.
(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
Heal Bilbo. If he wins this skirmish, you may prevent all wounds to losing minions to take into hand a [Shire] or [Dwarven] card from your discard pile.
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
EDIT : I just saw your new post, I will answer later. I think Burning Fir Cones will be in the Elrond Pack. So, we have a slot for a new card in the Wizard Pack for Beorn or Radagast (like your healing [Gandalf] spell) ?
Hmmm, interesting. Although Burning Fir Cones doesn't have a lore conection with Elrond/Rivendell, but if there's a strong Wizard presence in that pack (either Gandalf or Saruman), then won't discord too much.
There isn't yet a card to turn Beorn into an unstoppable tank bear... that might replace the Fir Cones. I'll be thinking in other ideas to portray, but this is a rough idea of how that bear-shape trick might be:
[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Skirmish
Exert 2 companions to transfer Beorn to a [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character. That character is strength +2 and damage +2. If bearer is killed, return Beorn to your support area.
"In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared... The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers."
So you allow Beorn to help a Dwarf or Gandalf (not Bilbo, it'd be OP). But now Beorn doesn't give strength +2, but strength +4 and dmg+2 to that Dwarf or Wizard. If he wins, you can grab this event back due to Beorn's text, so he can jump to another skirmish on and on... Until you can exert no more (2 exertions is heavy), or bearer loses the skirmish.
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Pity: I think the healing of Bilbo will cause the same problem: against a mass wounding Shadow (Bolg for example), you can heal a lot during skirmish. I think a response action is great, maybe a stronger one ? I change Pity for this
(0) Pity [Shire]
Event • Skirmish
You may discard 3 cards from hand to play this event from your discard pile.
If Bilbo wins this skirmish, prevent all wounds to losing minions to make a [Dwarven] companion strength +2 until the regroup phase.
We can't take back [Shire] cards discarded with Riddles in the Dark (but it has a way to prevent it). Moreover, a Bilbo fighting strategy will help now all the Company.
His Wrath Was Redoubled: This event is too weak for its cost (exert 2 companions), I think something really strong about the transformation of Beorn into bear could be great. Maybe a [Gandalf] follower replacing Beorn? Or just an event?
Lobelia: I don't think more intial randomness could be useful. But, if we have some place in the new packs we can use these abilities whose mimick a site.
Elrond's Pack: This pack will probably be only focused on [Elven] whose home site are 3. Lindir will probably have a new game text.
Burning Fir Cones: This event will eventually be in the Traveller's Pack instead of another [Dwarven] card. We need then a Warg in that pack to have a similar context.
Travellers Pack
(0) Dwarven Cloak [Dwarven]
Possession • Cloak
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion or Bilbo.
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] event is -1.
Response: If bearer is about to exert, discard 2 [Dwarven] cards from hand to place no token for that exertion.
"He hung his hooded cloak on the nearest peg..."
[2] Dwarven Thirst [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Discard X cards from hand to heal X [Dwarven] companions.
"'Ale on the count of three! One... Two... Up!'"
[2] Never Forgave, Never Forgot [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make a [Dwarven] character strength +2 and damage +1. You may attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying its aid cost).
"'The fire was red, it flaming spread; the trees like torches blazed with light.'"
[2] Also A Took [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If Bilbo wins this skirmish, you may take a [Dwarven] skirmish event into hand from your discard pile.
"'It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits.'"
[2] Burning Fir Cones [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Spell.
Exert Gandalf and spot X Dwarf followers to wound a minion X times (except Smaug). Then, if the fellowship is not at a forest, discard a [Dwarven] follower.
(0) Betsy Butterbur [Gandalf]
Ally. Man. Strength 1. Vitality 2. Site 1.
Exert Betsy Butterbur to reveal the top 10 cards of your draw deck. Take up to 2 [Dwarven] cards revealed into hand. Shuffle your draw deck.
"'The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'"
[4] Furious Warg [Gundabad]
Possession • Mount. Strength +3, Vitality +1.
Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc.
Bearer is fierce.
Response: If an event is played, discard this possession to cancel that event.
[2] •Bill Ferny Senior [Sauron]
Minion. Man. Strength 4. Vitality 3. Site 2.
Assignment: If this minion is unwounded, assign him to Thorin.
"'A promise of payment... for your head.'"
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I will answer only a part now. I'll answer all your other points later, and also some older ones like the Shadow Arkenstone and the Orkish Bow.
Pity: I think the healing of Bilbo will cause the same problem: against a mass wounding Shadow (Bolg for example), you can heal a lot during skirmish.
- Pity: Bilbo's pack has no healing and has 3 cards that exert himself (Burglar's Contract, Skillful Negociator and Old Thrush), besides Barrels that exerts Dwarves. Bolg's pack will feast will all those exertions. Only Barrels will help against regroup wounding. Skillful Negociator can absorb some pre-regroup wounds, but hardly more than those it needs: Elrond uses his vitality to heal so only if he takes 3 wounds will be worthy of that exertion of Bilbo and that wound he won't heal at regroup. So Bilbo's pack doesn't have a good counter to Bolg's Hunters. A healing trick will be very useful, not only against that pack but also against the exertions done by Bilbo's pack itself.
Healing is good, but look in detail, discarding 3 cards is really expensive for medium sized decks. And huge decks aren't good on sealed or draft games, due to the limited copies of important cards; this card has only max 2 copies, so you can't rely on this to cycle large decks. Balin won't help too much because he's too expensive. Besides, to remove many wounds per turn you need to ditch 6 cards to heal 2 wounds, or 9 cards to heal 3; there are few drawing tricks to draw more: Ori, and Barrels (but at regroup). Riddles in the Dark puts an additional peril in discarding 3 cards. All in all, any abuse on this discard-to-heal will not only deck you out, but also weaken your FP tricks and Shadow. I believe it's well balanced.
Your new version of Pity is a good card but departs too much from the "pity" concept, which should orbit around recovering and preservation. And is too similar to the offensive Also A Took.
- Riddles in the Dark: I believe this card needs to have a minion on the board. It makes little sense to me to play riddles with a wall, and if there is no minion losing a riddle game won't be important to the Shadow player. And you can ditch The One Ring by merely having more pairs of cards in hand than the FP player. I have 2 ideas to change it:
- No twilght remotion, and to use "spot a minion". If a riddle kills your last minion, there won't be more riddles.
"Response: If Bilbo exerts or takes a wound, spot a minion and discard 2 cards from hand to discard a [Shire] card (except Bilbo). The Free Peoples player may discard 2 cards from hand to prevent that and wound a minion."
- No twilght remotion, and instead of wounding a minion if you lose, you need to exert a minion to use it.
"Response: If Bilbo exerts or takes a wound, exert a minion and discard 2 cards from hand to discard a [Shire] card (except Bilbo). The Free Peoples player may discard 2 cards from hand to prevent that and wound a minion."
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: I don't think it's weak, although I agree that the cost is very limiting. Beorn will be giving str +4 and dmg +2, which makes a barehanded Balin or Gandalf str 11 dmg+2, or Dwalin str 11 dmg+3, or Thorin + Orcrist + a [Dwarven] follower str 15/16 dmg+4/5. Beorn's own text will be retrieving this event, to transfer Beorn to another skirmish on and on...
Perhaps the event should be a pump for Beorn without exertions, with a potential of transfering him again for 2 exertions:
[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Skirmish
You may exert 2 companions to attach Beorn to any [Dwarven] or [Gandalf] character (without paying his aid cost). Then, make his bearer strength +2 and damage +1.
So "you may" transfer Beorn, or not. Then he will give a total str+4 dmg+1. If you have a 2nd copy, you can play it to make bearer total str+6 dmg +2. So it'd be a pump for Beorn, and a potential new transference for 2 exertions.
I think something really strong about the transformation of Beorn into bear could be great. Maybe a [Gandalf] follower replacing Beorn? Or just an event?
Hmmm, an event (or a condition like Enraged for Ents, if you want to break your own card-designing rules). But not a new follower or ally version of Beorn, because there is already a Beorn card and the new card shouldn't remove the usefulness of the previous.
Another option is Radagast's Sled, as Radagast can only fight at site 5.
- Lobelia: You are right, more randomness is troublesome. Perhaps a fixed 1x FP add-on for the main deck (like the 5 Shadow add-ons), something like Thorin showing his royal mission and emblems on a town of good guys (sites 1, 3 and 6):
EDIT: Changed the "Emblemed Bracers" for an "Emblemed Belt" (fits better the book and films):
[2] •Thorin's Emblemed Belt [Dwarven]
Possession • Belt
Bearer must be Thorin.
At the start of your turn, you may spot a sanctuary or a site 1. During this turn, this card has the game text of that site.
"'Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror King under the Mountain!' said the dwarf in a loud voice... the gold gleamed on his neck and waist... 'I have come back.'"
The lore text is when he reveals himself to the Lake-towners. Both players will then be copying a site 1, 3 or 6 at their choices. Sites 1 are useful (Bag End draws, and Bilbo's Kitchen plays a [Dwarven] follower from deck) and two of three sites 6 too (Town Hall plays weapons, and Esgaroth plays allies) but all sites 3 are useless. To copy a site, you must spot it so you won't copy site 6 until the mid or late game.
The Shadow side can have Not At Home copying sites, with slight changes:
[2] •Not At Home [Gundabad]
Condition • Support Area
Each time a [Dwarven] companion is played at site 5 or higher, exert him once (or twice if there is a [Dwarven] companion in the dead pile).
Shadow: Transfer this condition to a site (except sites 5 and 8). This condition gains that site's game text.
5 card lines, so the lore text is preseved. Copies any site except 5 (too migthy anti-Gandy) and 8 (I believe we don't want Smaug at site 9). Powerful options are Rhudaur to play your conditions, Erebor and Dale if you spot 6 comps, Lake-town to play an Orc for -4 twilight at site 6, Wooded Steep Cliff to get double exertions at site 4, and at site 9 Thrór's Throne and Northern Slopes.
- Elrond's Pack: Ok to focus it on site 3 Elves. Perhaps instead of Hadafang, a generic "Elven Sword" will be better to save a card slot. But please give a chance to The Shards of Narsil, we might make a good card with it.
Soon I'll post the rest.
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- Town Hall: This card is OK. But if you rewrite it as a fellowship special ability (with a "limit once"), cards that copy sites will utilize its text in other sites (or twice at site 6). That means more importance to this site during the draft.
"River. Sanctuary. Fellowship: Exert a [Dale] ally to play a weapon from your discard pile (limit once)."
- Burning Fir Cones: I don't think it's a good idea to have it in the Travellers Pack. I'd rather have it in Balin's pack or the Blue Mountains pack, as it'll discard Dwarf followers and those packs will be intensive in event play (To Me! O My Kinsfolk!) or in direct follower replay.
The problem with the Travellers pack is that it works with card discarding and recycling (and with events, which are immediatly discarded). The Shovel is key to recycle the events and the discarded cards, and shouldn't be excluded at all cost (besides, the pack needs a permanent strength bonus like that small weapon). The pack doesn't provide outer support from followers or allies, and as such the other components of the pack have similar importance to keep the Company relying well on itself: wound prevention and remotion (Dwarven Cloak and Dwarven Thirst), solid pumps (!Never Forgave and Also a Took, and this "Hand Axe" shovel) and card fetching (Betsy / A Chance Meeting).
The Thirst and the Cloak depend on the Shovel recycling, otherwise will deck you out. So I believe there's no room here to add the Burning Cones, but given the follower dependance it'll be ok in Balin's or Blue Mountains pack.
- Wizard Pack: Don't remove the Warg presence there. The current Savage Warg is good against [Gandalf] guys, but also gives Gwaihir more use and importance. And with either Radagast's Sled or a Beorn event, Wargs are the correct foes.
- Betsy Butterbur: Nice adaptation. Is actually better than A Chance Meeting as costs no twilight nor exertions on companions, while the event is too expensive at the mid and late game (where Gandalf can be absent, the wounds stack and take toll, and a little more twilight increases a lot the risks). But the current version of The Prancing Pony can't play Betsy from the start. And Betsy can't be recycled by Balin. So either change the Pony to be able play her, or keep A Chance Meeting but with a cost reduced to [1] or (0) and no exertions (only spotting Thorin and Gandalf).
A possible Prancing Pony might be this:
The Prancing Pony
Site 1
At the start of the turn, each player may take into hand a site 1 ally or a Man minion from his or her draw deck.
- Furious Warg: Seems good, really interesting and powerful, and does a nice contrast with the [Isengard] Wargs which counter instead special abilities :up:. But the Travellers pack will be better in my opinion with The Last Lights of Durin's Day + Ferny. The Quest was in peril more due to time issues and mercenaries/spies, than by wargs tracking their trail. This Furious Warg will be better in Balin's or the Blue Mountains pack.
- Bill Ferny Sr: Really interesting. And powerful :o: The assignment skill prevents Thorin (if not defender +1) from fighting a big minion like Smaug, Azog, a Troll... Perhaps you meant "While unwounded, Bill Ferny Senior can only be assigned to Thorin and by a Shadow player", which would make him a str +4 pump like his son Ferny SSF.
You can make a bigger minion in the same fashion as this (with an Assignment skill), by using a picture where 2 men (obviously Ferny and Squint) follow Thorin at the Streets of Bree (that's the only part when those 2 can be seen together at the same picture). "Group of bad guys" minions are usually stronger, like Uruk Vanguard or Goblin Patrol Troop.
A last detail:
- Never Forgave, Never Forgot: I found this quote from the ROTK Appendices, when Thráin and Thorin talk after the Battle of Azanulbizar. The part highlighted in red might be a better lore text:
Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield: '...Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?'
"'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'"
...
"Older" topics.
- The Shadow Arkenstone: Your "Blade Tip" version is cool, like Blade Tip + Lemenya LoM. But the main problem is that it affects bearer only, while the dispute for the Arkenstone caused entire nations of good guys to become enemies. It weakened the position of the nation that didn't have it.
Now I agree that it must be self-discardable. But only Thorin should do that, to overcome its evil influence he'd had to strain himself a lot. Not Bilbo getting doubts, but instead Thorin getting exertions. So I made a self-discardable "Divide and Rule" Arkenstone, identical to my previous proposal except by the underlined parts.
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
Strength -2
To play, spot Thorin. Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer is Bard, he's strength +2 and
[Dwarven] characters are strength -2. If bearer
is Thorin, non- [Dwarven] allies are strength -2.
Bilbo gains this skill: "Maneuver: Add 1
doubt. Attach the Arkenstone to Bard or
Thorin, or exhaust Thorin to discard it."
"'What is that? In your hand... Show me!'"
It's true, Bard didn't want the Arkenstone for himself, but while Thorin still doesn't pay the ransom he must keep it to protect his people (and his Elf allies) by mantaining a strong position to negotiate. So Bard must be a possible bearer.
Requires spotting Thorin because he is the one who's obsessed with it, and if Thorin discards it he can be easily killed; if killed, any Shadow player can play another copy of this evil Arkenstone and Dwarves will be in bad shape with no way to discard it and no one to represent them and prevent the strength reduction.
The transference adds 1 doubt, but the self-discard skill adds 1 doubt too because it too requires a transference: is Thorin who must have it in his hands before discarding it.
- Orkish Bow: The flavor is really good. But can return Sting to hand, which has the same -2 str effect as The Shadow Arkenstone on Bilbo (the Aggressor, Gollum, and swarms like Bolg's Army will feast). Lorewise, Bilbo didn't lose his sword at Mirkwood so this Bow should exclude [Shire] weapons (perhaps [Gandalf] weapons too).
This Orkish Bow will trigger naturally in good part of the sitepath: all sites 2, 5 and 6 (and at some sites 4 and 7: Wooded Cliff, Underground Lake & Erebor); while the rest will have Watchful Orc. Therefore, it'll be very influential. Then, returning a weapon to hand so frequently will clog the opponent's hand (like Vilya + Elrond HtGG against Shadow conditions).
That can be avoided: if the Bow instead nullified both the bonuses and the text of a weapon, the figthing effect would be exactly the same but there wouldn't be any hand clog. So I made a version that spots a weapon, and while the weapon is at a forest or river it loses all text and bonuses:
[1] Orkish Bow [Gundabad]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Gundabad] Orc.
Bearer is an archer.
When you play this possession, you may spot a non- [Shire] weapon. While its bearer is at a river or forest, that weapon loses all game text and bonuses.
I owe you still the Orkish Bow and The Last Lights of Durin's Day.
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There are a lot of things :), but I will only answer a part of these suggestions.
- Town Hall: Ok for this text. Moreover, Gandalf could be play at site 6: Glamdring will be back with this way.
- Burning Fir Cones: I don't know yet if this [Gandalf] event will stay in the Wizard Pack or not. Beorn is not very well depicted in the Wizard Pack (I didn't like the Radagast's sled in the Hobbit movies... :(), so the bear could have a slot here. The bear could be unpredictable and wound [Dwarven] companions (it's just a first idea), but I also prefer a simple card ("Enraged" is great, maybe as a [Gandalf] event?).
If Burning Fir Cones is not in the Wizard Pack, the best themed pack for it is the Travellers Pack (adventures on the road to Erebor). Balin and the Blue Mountains Pack will be focused on their own abilities (and also other [Dwarven] followers). Maybe we can remove another card from the Travellers Pack?
- The Shadow Arkenstone: We have 2 different points of view. I prefer the local impact on the bearer. On your side, you prefer an influential Arkenstone: but the card becomes really complicated to read. Maybe a support area Arkenstone could be the solution? Moreover, in the story, only Thorin and the [Dwarven] folks want it back. The other free peoples want only the treasure (the Arkenstone is just a part of the treasure).
- Bill Ferny Sr: I just want to make that card as a wink to LOTR TCG ;). You are probably right, this is maybe better:
The Free Peoples player may not assign a character to skirmish Bill Ferny Senior. At the start of each skirmish involving Bill Ferny Senior, discard him if not assigned to Thorin.
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Take your time to read and answer. I'll be waiting to hear the rest ;).
About the [Gandalf] add-on in the Wizard Pack, I have 3 new different ideas you might consider instead of the Sled and a Bear-shape event:
- "Urgent Measures", a maneuver spell to pump Wizards and make them fight.
- "Radagast's Hedgehog", a follower that makes a [Gandalf] guy fight.
- "The Great Eagles", a big ally that helps FP guys being swarmed.
Here they go:
[3] Urgent Measures [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Spell.
Discard X cards from hand and exert X [Gandalf] characters to make them strength +X (limit +3), damage +X and can be assigned to skirmishes until the regroup phase.
"'But if I am not deceived, things are now moving which will require the union of all our strength.'"
The more Wizards you exert, the stronger they will be. The idea is to show Wizards fighting together against each minion in their path; if Gandalf faces a Nazgûl, then Radagast and Saruman's hands and staves will be there to help him, and wreak a greater havoc.
[2] •Radagast's Hedgehog [Gandalf]
Follower • Beast
Strength +1
Aid - Exert Radagast and add [1].
Bearer must be a [Gandalf] character.
Bearer may be assigned to skirmishes. Minions skirmishing bearer lose all strength bonuses from possessions.
"'Come on. Move back! Give him some air, for goodness sake!'"
This is Sebastian the Hedgehog (but I dislike that name). Again, a tool to make Radagast (and potentially Saruman) fight. Nazgul Swords and Wargs lose their strength bonus when fighting bearer (Radagast, or Saruman if those packs meet, or even Gandalf!). Unlike the previous, this effect lasts until the end of the turn (or until the follower is removed).
[6] •The Great Eagles [Gandalf]
Ally • Site 4 & 9 • Eagle
Strength 11 Vitality 3
Damage +1.
Gwaihir's bearer is strength +1.
Skirmish: If a companion or ally is skirmishing more than 1 minion, exert this ally to wound twice a minion with the lowest strength in that skirmish.
"...shapes small yet majestic against the distant glow."
Dwalin or Bilbo might be fighting 2 or more bad guys. But the Great Eagles come to the rescue, and start killing the weakest. This ally can fight by itself at sites 4 and 9.
Another option for that Skirmish skill is to remove that weakest minion from that companion/ally's skirmish, and assign it to fight The Great Eagles:
[6] •The Great Eagles [Gandalf]
Ally • Site 4 & 9 • Eagle
Strength 11 Vitality 3
Damage +1.
Skirmish: If a companion or ally is skirmishing more than 1 minion, exert this ally to remove from that skirmish a minion with the lowest strength and assign it to skirmish this ally.
"'The Eagles!' he shouted. 'The Eagles are coming!'"
...
- The Shadow Arkentstone:
Moreover, in the story, only Thorin and the Dwarven folks want it back. The other free peoples want only the treasure (the Arkenstone is just a part of the treasure).
Yes, Bard prefers the gold coins to rebuild their home. But that's not as simple to accomplish, it's Thorin who must give away the treasure. And dwarves took as a heavy insult to have to pay for anything that was theirs due to minning or crafting (Aüle's gifts to them; it was even a religious issue to craft minerals, just like Aüle crafted them from the foundations of mountains). Much worse if it's a stolen heirloom of such value. He wasn't willing to give away any part by the pressure of a war force, instead of by reason and trust. For Bard to get gold, Thorin must first defeat his pride (and thus "discard" the influence of the stone).
"Then Thorin burst forth in anger: 'Our thanks, Roac Carc's son. You and your people shall not be forgotten. But none of our gold shall thieves take or the violent carry off while we are alive.'"
"...Thorin hailed them: 'Who are you,' he called in a very loud voice, 'that come as if in war to the gates of Thorin son of Thrain, King under the Mountain, and what do you desire?'"
"'...The price of the goods and the assistance that we received of the Lake-men we will fairly pay - in due time. But nothing will we give, not even a loaf's worth, under threat of force. While an armed host lies before our doors, we look on you as foes and thieves.
So Thorin has a lot to battle inside his heart, before any other folks see a piece of the treasure. If Thorin defeats his pride, the evil influence of the Arkenstone will disappear; it depends on him. Meanwhile, the Arkenstone will be an insurance for Bard's claim, for the survivors of the ruin of Esgaroth.
We have 2 different points of view. I prefer the local impact on the bearer. On your side, you prefer an influential Arkenstone: but the card becomes really complicated to read. Maybe a support area Arkenstone could be the solution?
Hmmm, yes, it's hard to read. I have an easier version:
- Removes the specific boost on Bard ("If bearer is Bard, he is strength +2 and..."), and the printed str reduction that originates that need (since a weaker Bard doesn't make sense with a strong negotiator).
- Removes the lore text, so the ability can be written in 4 lines in a more legible way.
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
To play, spot Thorin. Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer is not Thorin, [Dwarven] characters
are strength -2. If bearer is not Bard,
non- [Dwarven] allies are strength -2 -3.
Bilbo gains this ability: "Maneuver:
Add 2 doubts to transfer the Arkenstone
to Bard or Thorin (or exhaust Thorin to
discard it)".
So the story is this: Thorin is angry for not having the Arkenstone; his companions are tired of searching on and on (-2 str). The Elves-Men army is exposed to attacks outside, and loses all negotiation potential with the coming of Dáin (-2 str too).
Bilbo can pass it to Thorin and ease his anger, but also wants to give Bard his share and prevent a war. Either way means fear and uncertainty (2 doubts). So he will pass it to any of them: the part that doesn't have it will be in problems. But if Thorin defeats his pride (exhausts himself), he'll pay to Bard the 14th share of Bilbo and everyone will be happy and united.
No matter what is your FP side, this new Arkenstone requires Bilbo to pass is ASAP (or discard it). Keeping it on Bilbo is the worst possible option.
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- The Shadow Arkenstone: There are some problems with this card. The strength reduction on allies will probably have no interesting effect for the Shadow player's strategy, allies don't skirmish as often as possible. Maybe the first two effects could be sum up in one sentence? Moreover, the exhaustion of Thorin will be often used (especially if he is already).
I'm sorry but I prefer the Arkenstone I proposed, it depicts simply the Arkenstone's effects on bearer.
- Orkish Bow: The text focus now only on [Dwarven] companions. I need a way to punish a well-stuffed Thorin. Returning Orcrist in hand is maybe too evil? Only canceling its effect seems ok, but I would like a better sentence ^^.
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: New card in the Wizard Pack. Beorn has now 2 focused cards for him.
- Pity & Riddles in the Dark: Since Riddles in the Dark can discard all [Shire] cards, I break the Free Peoples condition rule here ;). The text of Pity is now far more easier to read.
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- Pity: Interesting new version! You are right, the Riddles or Smaug can discard any [Shire] condiiton. But I wonder how Bilbo will get The One Ring back if it gets discarded... there's the Old Thrush, but it's one-shot-only as it can't be recycled (save by itself, but that's totally useless). Still, great improvement! :up:
So it may prevent those wounds to "either heal a companion or take a [Shire] card from your discard pile into hand".
- Orkish Bow: Seems good. :up: If you want to balance it, perhaps an alternative cost can be added to prevent the return to hand. "The Free Peoples player may... to prevent that:"
- "exert its bearer": since it's a wounding pack, exertions will stack. If you pack some pumps, Thorin can self-exhaust and then you can try to kill him by surprise.
- "exert 2 companions": stronger, but doesn't exert bearer necessarily.
In both cases, with 4x Bows in the draft you can play 2 Bows easily on the same turn for better punishment by the FP prevention.
The [Dwarven] weapons are meant to get better chances to win skirmishes; by winning, you prevent 2+ wounds (1 or + for not losing, and 1 or + for the vitality that'd be used at regroup to wound your companions). So exertions vs wounds is a situation where the Shadow player always wins, the FP player just decides what option punishes less.
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Another interesting one! I never thought about Out Of the High Airs, well done! :up: I'd only change the lore text, with all that free room I prefer a full (that is, non-trimmed) quote from the book.
Beorn can return this to hand when his bearer wins a skirmish, and The Eagles Are Coming can replay him the next turn. Great synergies!
- The Shadow Arkenstone: At least a thing is clear to me: is Thorin who must discard it. You are right: to exhaust him is not a good answer, as you point right if he's already exhausted there's no cost. Then "exert Thorin twice" or even "thrice". Or "wound Thorin twice"...
If must be a "Blade Tip" or a "Divide and Rule" Arkenstone, that's another issue. Both are good ideas in my opinion. I have my reasons to prefer a stone that affects either allies OR companions, although as the Thorin pack lacks allies, by itself the 2 doubts will be the only punishment :(. But when combined with other packs like the White Council, Mirkwood, Esgaroth and the brand new Rivendell/Elrond pack, the str reduction can be huge...
I agree with you, -2 str on non-Dwarf allies may be not enough. Perhaps -3 will be better: Bard/Percy/Volunteers str 3 (or 5 with an Iron weapon); Thranduil str 6, Legolas/Tauriel str 3; Erlond/Saruman str 5, Galadriel str 0! That's a good reason to either pass it to Bard, or discard it.
But in either case, is Thorin who must discard it.
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The LOTR TCG French Open took me a lot of time. After the Hobbit tournament last week, I change a lot of cards in the supplementary packs and the [Ringwraith] condition.
The idea is to reinforce swarm abilities of the shadow part: if one player doesn't take enough cards for his swarm deck, it could be difficult for him.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
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The LOTR TCG French Open took me a lot of time. After the Hobbit tournament last week, I change a lot of cards in the supplementary packs and the [Ringwraith] condition.
Cheers! I wish I was there!
Interesting changes! Makes sense to make swarms easier in a draft format. :up:
I have some small remarks, but almost all gets my total approval:
- Cool idea with the skill exchange between Assaulting Goblin and Demolition Troll! =D>
- I like too the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór making Nazgûls cost -2, and the assignment skill being cheaper.
- Makes sense that the [Wraith] condition requires to exert [Dwarven] companions, as Gandalf had to leave The Company to attend The White Council :up:.
- The Great Enemy is now [Wraith] so can't be recycled by Danger Wrapped in Shadows.:up:
- You changed the lore text of Nenya! ;D
- Azog's Mace is frightening! Play it with The Wolves Army and combine it with a mount, and you got a mighty swarm engine. :up:
- You changed Pity as I suggested. And is now unique, which wasn't necessary to limit its effect but is better for the draft. :up:
- Caught in a Sack now can exert Bilbo twice. Makes sense. :up:
- Ancestral Feuds is really powerful now, and increases the flavor. But gives some time for the FP player to prevent discardin all weapons (Ancestral Knowledge). So it seems balanced.
- Fimbul now plays any minion from deck. :up:
Now some remarks and suggestions:
- Riddles in the Dark: Now needs a minion in play :up:. But I wonder if exerting a minion to trigger, and then wounding a minion if losing the riddle is too much... Probably will require playtesting.
- Dark Bats is now Grishnakh, Orc Captain. Great! :up: Perhaps might do something at a battleground or at site 9, something like "You may remove [1] and a doubt at site 9 to play this minion from your discard pile" (2 lines). That'd mean extra minions for a swarm (not costing cards in hand), and hand extension; but each Dark Bat will cost that way [2] and a doubt.
- Underground Lake is now helpful only for the Shadow players. That's right :up:, is cool to play the Riddle Game soon but... what if it played any condition (FP or Shadow) instead? That way the Shadow player'd play the Riddle Game (or anything else), while the FP player'd play the only FP condition ever made: Pity. It'd be really great for the flavor!
"Underground. River. Maneuver: Play a Shadow condition from your draw deck (limit once per turn player)." In that case, Pity might cost a bit of twilight (1 or 2) to allow the Shadow player to play a more expensive condition.
- He Is Summoning His Servants: It might give each Wise ally a skill (alike the Shadow Arkenstone) to assign itself directly to a [Wraith] or [Sauron] minion, otherwise Sauron's skill will try to assign Nazgûls to companions and Wise allies will be left outside the struggle (remember the Sauron + Nazgûls combo will require -2 twilight per Nazgûl!). So the 1st part of this [Wraith] condition would say:
"Each Wise ally gains this ability: "Assignment: Exert a [Dwarven] companion to make this ally participate in skirmishes and assign it to a [Sauron] or [Wraith] minion." But those are 4 lines, not 3.
The idea is to allow Wise allies to "strike first" (as Gandalf wanted, that's in the Unfinished Tales), before Sauron's hand attacks The Company and destroys all plans to kill the Dragon (and restore the realms of Dale and Erebor). Being assignment abilities, both will intercalate and will make the assignment phase really interesting! Now, that uses 4 lines instead of 3. To compensate, the Shadow skill can be worded this way to use 2 lines only: "Shadow: Discard an Orc. Play a Nazgûl at twilight cost -2 from your discard pile."
...
The idea is to reinforce swarm abilities of the shadow part: if one player doesn't take enough cards for his swarm deck, it could be difficult for him.
If you really want to make a good swarm card, a "Divide and Rule" Arkenstone is much better than a "Blade Tip" one...
Now, I've been reconsidering the punishment on allies. What's the point of making allies str -2, or even -3? Bard, Legolas, even Saruman will still serve as cannon fodder. It'd be better to make them cannot participate in skirmishes, unless Bard is bearing the Arkenstone (or Thorin discards it):
[2] •The Arkenstone, King's Jewel [No Culture]
Artifact
To play, spot Thorin. Plays on Bilbo.
If bearer isn't Thorin, [Dwarven] characters are strength -2; if isn't Bard, non- [Dwarven] allies can't participate in skirmishes.
Bilbo gains this ability: "Maneuver: Add 2 doubts to attach the Arkenstone to Thorin or Bard (or to discard it if you wound Thorin twice)."
So there are 4 options:
Bilbo: Non-Dwarf allies can't fight, and Dwarves are str -2.
Bard: Dwarves are str -2. Add 2 doubts.
Thorin: Non-Dwarf allies can't fight. Add 2 doubts.
Discard it: Add 2 doubts, and wound Thorin twice (you said you wanted more anti-Thorin cards ;)).
Any FP based on (non- [Dwarven]) allies will have to rely on Bard, that includes The White Council and Elrond packs. If the Arkenstone is in play and Bard doesn't bear it, those allies will simply not fight.
As said before, this is a good card for swarm decks as it either removes allies from the fight (except Iron Hills Dwarves), or makes Dwarf companions strength -2. And for beatdown decks too.
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- Riddles in the Dark: Yes, this card needs playtesting.
- Dark Bats: This card was created more for the Goblin Swarm than the Azog Swarm. However, this card will be very good in the Azog Swarm. Moreover, Dark Bats will be a minion from the discard pile for (1) at Battle of the Five Armies. We can add : "If you cannot spot 3 Orcs, the Free Peoples player may add 2 doubts to prevent it."
- Underground Lake: The idea is to take back a discarded Goblin Swarms (or not yet drawn), more than Riddles in the Dark. The conditions must be played from the draw deck and from the discard pile. Pity at (0) seems better for its effficency.
- He Is Summoning His Servants: The text is too long. This is the main card of the [Ringwraith] Shadow, and it starts with 4 card lines which are not a Shadow ability.... But the text must be clear, maybe cut the "assign to [Ringwraith] or [Sauron] minions part" ? If this condition is played, there will be [Ringwraith] minions....
- The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: I prefer an ability without Bard (only Thorin and Bilbo). It will be easier to playtest. The current Arkenstone makes Bilbo strength -2 or Thorin with Orcrist strength -2 or add doubts for Battle of the Five Armies, it is great for a swarm Shadow too ;).
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- Dark Bats: Hmmm, interesting. Yes, the doubt prevention makes a nice synergy with the Battle of the Five Armies site 9. In Azog's pack, the Were Worms can add twilight by discarding the cards the Bats will be drawing, but you must play the Bats at shadow phase first. Seems right. The prevention might be even better for the Shadow player, if using that site 9, so adding a text like that can be unnecessary I think. Many shadows won't have 3 Orcs to spot but won't suffer anyway, like the 3 Trolls.
- Underground Lake: Even better! :up: The new text makes it very useful for site mimicking cards.
- He Is Summoning His Servants: Perhaps the Shadow skill should be 1st, and the passive skill be 2nd.
But the skill for allies must assign !the Wise ally to a minion (not merely allow him/her to fight), otherwise Sauron will use all assignment actions to assign all Nazgûls before the normal assignment by the FP takes place. Anyway, the skill might not specify the culture of the minion, to be clearer or shorter.
- The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: Hmmm, alright. I cannot compete with that... the Divide and Rule Arkenstone has a strong disadvantage that just can't be solved, that's the lack of allies in Thorin's pack, which makes it must be playtested with many other packs in order to measure the effect on allies. I guess I have to surrender. :P
Now, your Arkenstone has a wording error: "(or 3 doubts to discard this artifact)". Must be instead "to discard it".
If only hypothetically there was a "Battle of the Five Armies" Pack or so with Dale and Mirkwood allies, an Arkenstone like mine would be great for such hypotetical pack... (at this stage of things you can surely read my mind: I have a complete prototype for such a pack ;))
...
Well, there are still some things I owe you. 3 cards: the Last Lights of Durin's Day, Wrath of the Dragon and Twisted Gold. There's also the "List of Missing Things", and the pictures for the Travellers Pack (I've had problems getting a 48fps version of AUJ, the pictures get too blurry at 24fps). That's all. I'm working on all those 5 2 items.
- Twisted Gold of Dragon: :up: I like A LOT your idea of taking a Shadow card of your choice from the draw deck, portrays well Smaug's clever and psychopathic mind. With 2 copies you might remove [4] to take Sauron + his Ring of Thrór, to have both monsters on the board. But the cost is immense (Sauron'll require [9] + [2] per assignment, and then is Smaug's cost), so shouldn't be a problem. You can get better things for less twilight, like 1 or 2 copies of Dissension or Anger to burn everything in Smaug's path. =D>
- Wrath of the Dragon: Hmmm, I think the passive skill is redundant with Dragon's Malice, and that room can be used for something better (and more wrathful) like a skill to fight a 3rd time (like the Witch King's Beast). Moreover, Dragon's Malice has 4 copies and this card has 2, so this condition must be a game-changer.
"After all fierce skirmishes have been resolved, you may exert Smaug twice to make him participate in one additional assignment and skirmish phase." 4 card lines. To prevent an easy corruption with Dragon's Malice, it might also remove 1 or 2 doubts as cost:
"After all fierce skirmishes are over, you may exert Smaug twice and remove a doubt to make him participate in one additional assignment and skirmish phase." 4 lines too.
- The Last Lights of Durin's Day: You are right, adding twilight AND doubts is too much. But wounding each minion twice isn't consistent with the idea of the Dwarves running reckless towards the Mountain (with hordes of Goblins, Wargs or Elves on their trail); the minions must survive and keep the hunt to discourage double moves.
I'd prefer some healing on [Dwarven] companions (because the idea of returning to the Mountain ignited hope into their hearts). That'd be either each time the fellowship moves at regroup, or the cost of a replaying skill:
- "Each time the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, heal 2 [Dwarven] companions."
- "Regroup: Heal 2 [Dwarven] companions to play this condition from your discard pile."
The Shadow player chooses who gets healed. I prefer the latter: a replay skill is expensive !in twilight, but is more reliable to portray the pressure on the Company (which was a problem of time, you can combat and "discard" an enemy's influence, but not time's influence). Besides, makes the regroup phase more interesting as the Shadow player can affect the double-move decision of the FP player.
Now, this condition makes sense only at sites 1 to 7. After entering the Mountain they have no reason at all to move fast. So it can discard itself at sites 8 and 9, but then it's totally useless at those sites... this should solve both problems: "At sites 8 and 9, draw up to 3 cards and discard this condition."
That way, if you play it too late it's still useful to draw cards (like an event that costs [2]). And drawing cards portrays the Company moving slower, which is what happened inside Erebor to not be surprised by the Dragon (and instead attack him by surprise).
[2] •The Last Lights of Durin's Day [No culture]
Condition • Support area
At the end of each turn, add a doubt and exert Thorin if the fellowship didn't move more than once.
At sites 8 and 9, draw up to 3 cards and discard this condition.
Regroup: Heal 2 [Dwarven] companions to play this condition from your discard pile.
"'It is our one chance to find the hidden door.'"
I hope you like it.
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Dark Bats: After some tests, the condition "If you cannot spot 3 Orcs..." is better only for Goblin Swarm and Sauron Beatdown. The bats could also be played back with Old Forest Road.
He Is Summoning His Servants: Sauron could assigned all Nazguls before. The idea of this ability is more a support in emergency case (the Dwarves cannot manage Sauron and the Nazguls). If only the Nazguls are in play, the Wises can fight them, but against Sauron and the Nazguls, they are too strong and only Sauron can be fought.
The card framework is similar as Reckless Pride, Ancient Blade...
The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: Thank you ;).
Wrath of the Dragon: I change the first sentence, but I want to stay under 2 card lines for the first sentence. 5 card lines are enough for a single card.
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- The Arkenstone, King's Jewel: :up:
- Wrath of the Dragon: Seems powerful! :up:
- Dark Bats: Bats chasing Radagast at the Old Forest Road! This will be the only minion with the race "bat", so you might change that to "creature" to wink Decipher's Watcher in the Water and tentacles.
- He Is Summoning His Servants: That may need playtesting, because a cost reduction of 2 per Nazgûl may flood the board with ringwraiths. Perhaps will be enough with removing the restriction to [Dwarven] companions, allowing to exert also Bilbo and Gandalf. That because Sauron can assign Dwarves or exert them, but can't touch Bilbo's vitality, which would be a resource to summon The Wise.
- Bill Ferny Sr: Ferny might prefer sometimes to not fight Thorin (moreover if he's dead), so I'd add a way to exert him:
[2] Bill Ferny Senior, Spy and Mercenary [Sauron]
Minion • Man
Strength 4 Vitality 3 Site 2
While Bill Ferny Senior is unwounded, he can only be assigned to skirmish Thorin and by a Shadow player.
Shadow: Exert Bill Ferny Senior twice to play a condition from your draw deck.
You wanted to play conditions from draw deck, and that's a perfect job for a spy ;). Moreover, Ferny will allow The Last Lights of Durin's Day to be played soon (as both belong to the Travellers Pack theme), and thus reap its full effect.
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Thank you. Ok I change the Dark Bats for "creature".
After some tests, I also change Demolition Troll, Azog Commander (he prevents the discard of Were Worms during maneuver phase if at a battleground), Enchanted River (reconcile the hand was too powerful) and the cost of The Great Enemy.
Not At Home can now bring back Shadow cards from the discard pile. It's important in a draft if you don't have enough copies of an important Shadow card.
Terrifying Legend wasn't good enough against [Dale] allies. I use your idea of additional skirmishes ;).
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- Dark Bats: :up:
- Enchanted River: :up:
- The Great Enemy: :up:
- Terrifying Legend: :up: Being a Regroup action, Bard can try to kill them first which is great for the flavor. ;D
- Demolition Troll: :up: Does that mean there will be more fortifications ;)? There's currently only one (the [Dwarven] Great Barricade). Dale men might have a "Dale Causeway" or an "Eastern Parapet" (in a "BotFA pack"), while Thorin & Company would have the Ancient Forges or a Molten Gold Monument (in a "Reclaiming Erebor" pack).
- Azog, Commander: Makes sense with both flavor and gameplay :up:. To discard the conditions, the FP player will need to first kill him ("cut the head off the snake"), then Bifur and Sting can try to remove his influence. Vicious Warg can force the keyword. But the FP player has still the 1st maneuver action :(. So you may change the Vicious Warg to be a passive skill "at the start of the maneuver phase", or to be an active Shadow skill (but with a higher twilight cost, as the Were-worms' cost reduction will affect not only during maneuver an onwards, but also at shadow).
- Not At Home: The cost and effect seem balanced, but I wonder if is good to have Smaug at site 9 with this (would be possible if is killed at 8). The classical "(except Smaug)" will solve that, and rearranging the discard of Not at Home to the end will make it fit in 3 lines.
Regarding the Goblin Domain skill, perhaps at a sanctuary should exert only once. The only way to get rid of your companions (and keep below a fearsome number) is to throw them to the lions or arrows, and since 2 versions of Gandalf have problems playing them selectively from deck, they'll tend to use any Dwarf that comes into hand. Of course there's condition discard, so my worries may be unfounded.
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Terrifying Legend: Maybe I will change it a bit. It's really evil with a lot of twilight pool and Hidden Attack. Or change Hidden Attack.
Demolition Troll: Yes, I think we can put some fortifications in the Balin Pack and the Blue Mountains Pack.
Azog Commander: I prefer not. I want to see the Shadow player uses Watchful Orc more than Vicious Warg (the Orcs from the draw deck must be very useful). With this way, the Free Peoples player has still a window with Ancestral Knowledge to discard the Were-Worms. The Shadow player could still make the site a battleground with the Vicious Warg and then play the Were-Worms back with the Wolves Army ;).
Not At Home: You're right. But I want only a 3-lines regroup ability for this card (6 lines max. in total). You have ideas? Maybe only Shadow condition? I don't think the sanctuary exception seems necessary (Goblin Domain doesn't need it). With these 2 versions of Gandalf, we need a small deck (max 35/35) and there are still 3-4 companions in the starting which will not give pool by playing them ^^.
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- Azog Commander: Alright, seems better for the balance. :up:
- Terrifying Legend: You can add this to Hidden Attack: "You cannot use regroup special abilities (except of [Gundabad] Orcs)" (2 lines, and some LOTR TCG cards like A Grey Ship and Reckless We Rode use a similar text). There are few cards that carry a Shadow regroup ability:
- Smaug and Not At Home (main deck)
- Warg and War-warg
- Fat Spider
- Jail
- Terrifying Legend
- Bolg's Army Orcs
Such text prevent the Orcs played by Hidden Attack from feeding those cards in bold (while the rest'd need to be used before Hidden Attack; Gundabad Orcs like Bolg's Army are excluded and can still wound the Company). That also makes a more stable basis on which develop new Shadow regroup skills, which can appear in the Beatdown Pack 3 (Elves, Dale Men and Giants).
- Not At Home: Ok for not including a sanctuary exception. To keep the regroup skill in 3 lines with a Smaug-exception, you can put the cost of the regroup skill at the end, like Arrow From the South: "Heal a [Raider] archer for... Discard this condition". I'd be then like this:
"If a [Dwarven] companion is in the dead pile, each [Dwarven] companion comes into play exhausted.
Regroup: Place a Shadow card (except Smaug) from your discard pile on top of your draw deck. Discard this condition."
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- Blue Mountains pack: The pack will need a generic weapon, but if it's centered around [Dwarven] followers (Bifur, Bofur, Bombur...) they cannot bear possessions. I got this solution to show those followers wielding weapons:
[2] •Weaponry of Ered Luin [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
Each [Dwarven] companion bearing a Dwarf follower is strength +1.
Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion that doesn't bear a follower (without paying its aid cost).
Doesn't make Bilbo stronger, only the Dwarf companions (to not make Dori overpowered). The maneuver skill is a substitute for aid costs (you said Bofur is rarely used), but can't be used to pile up many followers on the same companion. Hope you like it.
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I change Not At Home and Hidden Attack. I think Terrifying Legend doesn't need any change.
I'm working on the current packs. There will be a Hobbit Draft Game Open in October in Paris! I need to make the final tests for the current packs. There are other cards you want to change?
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I change Not At Home and Hidden Attack. I think Terrifying Legend doesn't need any change.
Ok for Terrifying Legend and Not At Home. But I believe Hidden Attack may be a bit expensive given the new limited effect, perhaps changing the cost to [1] + exert will be better, or to [2] + spot.
I'm working on the current packs. There will be a Hobbit Draft Game Open in October in Paris! I need to make the final tests for the current packs. There are other cards you want to change?
Magnificent! By now, I can see some small details that can be considered for a change:
- Azog, Commander: He states "[Moria] conditions cannot be discarded from play". Therefore, if both [Moria] Swarm packs coincide the Great Goblin's Power won't prevent wounds (at a battleground). If you want to correct that, change it to "While at a battleground, [Moria] conditions can't be discarded by Free Peoples cards." Although that limitation can be kept to balance Azog's swarming power.
- Vicious Warg: Removing only [1] seems too easy... I mean the minions cost little twilight, the Were-worms create [8] or a multiple of that (a lot can remain to inhibit double moves) and will make them cost -1, then Azog plays them from discard. Removing [1] at the mid or late game (site 5 or 7) to get the perfect conditions for a swarm, it seems unnatural. I believe removing [2] will be better.
- Ulaire Enquea, Nelya & Otsea: They say "each time the FP player transfers a follower". Followers are transferred twice: once at maneuver to a companion, and back to the support area at the end of the turn. So those Nazgûls should specify "the FP player transfers a follower to a companion" or "from his or her support area", to prevent them from triggering at the end of the turn.
- Ulaire Cantea & Nertea: They say "if the FP player discards a condition", might be better to specify "Shadow condition" in the case another FP condition is made in the future. If something self-discardable like Enraged or Stout and Strong is ever released, Cantea would trigger although no Shadow condition'd be discarded.
- Ancestral Feuds: Can't discard [Dale] Iron Weapons borne by dwarves. And would discard [Dwarven] weapons borne by Men (there isn't yet any, but a Dwarven Sword might be bearable by dwarves and men; Esgaroth and Dale swords were Dwarf-made)... change it to be alike Goblin Song: "When the fellowship moves to site 5, discard each weapon borne by a [Dwarven] companion".
- Du Bekâr!: Says "(except companion)", but should be plural "(except companions)" or singular with a pronoun "(except a companion)".
Some other details might need a change, details that don't affect the gameplay like the lore text and the symbols/numbers at the bottom right corner of the cards.
For instance, all the new releases (the add-ons for the FP packs and the new 5 Shadow cards for the Main deck) should say "2016 HOBBIT DRAFT GAME" (instead of 2015). And the versions of Bilbo that were changed to survive Gollum better (Reliable Companion and Collector of Treasures) should have in the bottom right corner an "(A)" symbol instead of the original "(1)", showing it was modified.
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Enola, my French friend! What is this enormous project?? Is this all you? Card design, both text wise as graphic wise? And you are going to print physical cards? Wow
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Ok for Terrifying Legend and Not At Home. But I believe Hidden Attack may be a bit expensive given the new limited effect, perhaps changing the cost to [1] + exert will be better, or to [2] + spot.
We test this card last thursday, the card is very strong. I remove the reduction cost and it's now cost (0), so it's only harder to play 2 Orcs. It's still really strong, you can test it with the Hobbit Draft Game Online.
- Azog, Commander: He states "[Moria] conditions cannot be discarded from play". Therefore, if both [Moria] Swarm packs coincide the Great Goblin's Power won't prevent wounds (at a battleground). If you want to correct that, change it to "While at a battleground, [Moria] conditions can't be discarded by Free Peoples cards." Although that limitation can be kept to balance Azog's swarming power.
Only one similar swarm pack will be in the booster (with different number of copies according to the number of players), so there will be no Goblin Shadow in the same boosters as the Azog Shadow. For the Hobbit on gemp (still no news from dmaz....), it's the reason why I wanted to make them different with the keyword "assailant". Or even a different culture for the Azog Shadow?
- Vicious Warg: Removing only [1] seems too easy... I mean the minions cost little twilight, the Were-worms create [8] or a multiple of that (a lot can remain to inhibit double moves) and will make them cost -1, then Azog plays them from discard. Removing [1] at the mid or late game (site 5 or 7) to get the perfect conditions for a swarm, it seems unnatural. I believe removing [2] will be better.
- Du Bekâr!: Says "(except companion)", but should be plural "(except companions)" or singular with a pronoun "(except a companion)".
- Ancestral Feuds: Can't discard [Dale] Iron Weapons borne by dwarves. And would discard [Dwarven] weapons borne by Men (there isn't yet any, but a Dwarven Sword might be bearable by dwarves and men; Esgaroth and Dale swords were Dwarf-made)... change it to be alike Goblin Song: "When the fellowship moves to site 5, discard each weapon borne by a [Dwarven] companion".
All changed! With a new picture for Vicious Warg.
- Ulaire Enquea, Nelya & Otsea: They say "each time the FP player transfers a follower". Followers are transferred twice: once at maneuver to a companion, and back to the support area at the end of the turn. So those Nazgûls should specify "the FP player transfers a follower to a companion" or "from his or her support area", to prevent them from triggering at the end of the turn.
- Ulaire Cantea & Nertea: They say "if the FP player discards a condition", might be better to specify "Shadow condition" in the case another FP condition is made in the future. If something self-discardable like Enraged or Stout and Strong is ever released, Cantea would trigger although no Shadow condition'd be discarded.
You are right, but Bert and William have the same kind of "mistakes", it's just stronger (in most of the cases, the FP players doesn't transfer anything). Btw, It also works for the prevent of Bofur ;).
Some other details might need a change, details that don't affect the gameplay like the lore text and the symbols/numbers at the bottom right corner of the cards.
For instance, all the new releases (the add-ons for the FP packs and the new 5 Shadow cards for the Main deck) should say "2016 HOBBIT DRAFT GAME" (instead of 2015). And the versions of Bilbo that were changed to survive Gollum better (Reliable Companion and Collector of Treasures) should have in the bottom right corner an "(A)" symbol instead of the original "(1)", showing it was modified.
Argh! I need to export all the new cards again. There will be a last Hobbit test tournament the 2 July, then I will probably print all the new cards (after more than a year of playtesting and discussions ;)).
All cards under test here: http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters2.html
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Enola, my French friend! What is this enormous project?? Is this all you? Card design, both text wise as graphic wise? And you are going to print physical cards? Wow
Hi Heije! It's a long time that I didn't see you. Yes, I'm working on the Hobbit Draft Game for 2 years (and Durin's Heir helps me a lot). I already print some physical cards and we make several tournaments (one with 8 players, several others with 5-6 players). There will be a French Hobbit Draft Game Open in October-November 2016 in Paris with maximum 16 players (and probably more than 12 players). You can print the HD cards here http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Download.html (and also play the game online by direct IP ;)).
I hope I will see you for the Hobbit Draft Game Open ^^.
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- Hidden Attack: Alright! :up:
- Vicious Warg, Du Bekâr! & Ancestral Feuds: Ditto. The new Vicious Warg seems superb! :up:
- Nazguls: Seems fair! Besides, the Ringwraiths here share role with the 3 Trolls.
Argh! I need to export all the new cards again. There will be a last Hobbit test tournament the 2 July, then I will probably print all the new cards (after more than a year of playtesting and discussions ;)).
The year number and symbols are things nobody will note, so leave that perfectionist detail to the end. The correction of lore text problems will require another upload if you hurry too much. So keep calm and upload all those non-gameplay changes at the same time ;).
I'll hurry then with the lore text corrections, and any little gameplay error I might be missing now.
Only one similar swarm pack will be in the booster (with different number of copies according to the number of players), so there will be no Goblin Shadow in the same boosters as the Azog Shadow.
Does it mean that for 8 players, there'll be 2x of the same Swarm pack? That 'd limit a lot the creativity of players :(.
I don't see a big risk with mixing both [Moria] packs. Keep in mind that you'll still have only 3x15 booster cards to draft, so mixing both subcultures means diluting them. AND the way the 2 subcultures "swarm" is too different to combine efficiently: "Goblin Town" orcs work at Shadow phase by drawing and adding pool with Runner/Scimitar, while Azog's army works at Maneuver and from discard. Azog must often keep twilight left at shadow to use at maneuver, so drawing and playing more at shadow can be counterproductive. The engine is still possible but requires too many toothed wheels: GG's Power + Scimitar + Footman at shadow, and Azog + mount or Footman + Were-worms with 3+ cards in hand at maneuver. Too frail....
The Great Goblin's Power can't add twilight with Vicious Warg; the Were-worms replace the Goblin Runner's twilight but at maneuver (when the Goblin Town pack can't play cards); Hatred Rekindled works well with Goblin Town but cripples the cards needed for the Were-worms; Goblin Sneak is of little use to Azog as he prefers to have the orcs in discard pile; the Scimitar will compete with Vicious Warg for Goblin Footman's replay (there's no Relics of Moria) but the weapon is no match for the mount (with the Were-worms flooding the pool); the Vicious Warg can obstruct the Swarms as makes bearer fierce, which forces it to either retreat too soon or risk a fierce skirmish to Thorin, Gwaihir, Orcrist's wounding or even Bifur's condition control....
The Goblin Towners can benefit at site 9 from the Were-worms' cost reduction, and can get mounts for more muscle (a mounted Great Goblin :up: :P). That's not OP. The only things that worry me are 1) Assaulting Goblin preventing too easily direct wounds that'd counter swarms, and 2) Goblin Swarms with Azog's big guys (and Azog's life protecting the Swarms).
Let Azog the way he is, as he interferes with the only usefulness the Great Goblin's Power can give to his subculture. You can restrict the Assaulting Goblin by making its skill work only at a battleground (perhaps at an underground too) as the Goblin Towners will be forced to dilute with expensive Vicious Wargs or Watchful Orcs to force that site keyword. For the Goblin Swarms I have nothing :(, although that card is still the main target of condition discard and doesn't synergize with the potential of Wargs.
Or even a different culture for the Azog Shadow?
Don't create an new culture, there are too many. The Goblin Army was from the whole Misty Mountains and "Moria" stands for them all, while Bolg's army is from all the Grey Mountains (but "Gundabad" stands for them; I know Gundabad was in the northern Misty Mountains but that's where the Grey Mountains orcs usually gathered, given its position and stronghold). The Moria Orcs of the film are often called "Dol Guldur Orcs" for the place of their gathering and arming, then they would be [Sauron] Orcs (with Site number 4). But no, [Moria] is what fits better in my opinion.
For the Hobbit on gemp (still no news from dmaz....), it's the reason why I wanted to make them different with the keyword "assailant".
In a constructed environment on Gemp, the FP will have many advantages and ways to counter. There won't be more "boxing dwarves" (with 3 different generic weapons and Dwarven Song); followers will have many copies per deck; condition discard will be tough with An Accorn and Ancestral Knowledge; the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór + Bofur + Dori will help Kili or Dwalin to absorb a whole swarm in a site; orc heads will roll to Battle of Azanulbizar and Dawn Take You All; Percy and Bard will lead a new host of defenders; Thranduil will be fighting at Thorin's command...
There will be also the R-list to moderate things.
To get the HDG on Gemp, try writting a PM to Merrick. I believe he can contribute with either direct work on such task, or guide in who can help you with it.
I'll try to PM them both soon too. ;)
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I got 3 small observations to post by now. Only 1 is about gameplay, but is a very slight suggestion and unlikely to happen. The rest are all lore text or wording:
Gameplay:
- Bolg's Army: I wonder if these swarm/wound cards are too powerful at the early game. I'm only seeing the chance to raise the Site Number of them to 4 (just like [Isengard] Orcs), for flavor purposes (and to wink the [Isengard] Orcs). But gameplay is what matters, so only if they happen to need to be softened at the early game merely, that change will delay them enough. And will make them mix a bit worse with the Wargriders pack (reducing OP combos).
Wording:
- The Evil Becomes Stronger: The card refers first to an "[Elven] archer" and then to an "[Elven] ally". That can be confusing to some. So you can change it to "Spot an [Elven] archer ally" to remove that chance of confusion.
Lore text:
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: The lore text lacks suspension points in the parts when you trim the text. Should be like this: "The roar... tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers."
Apparently you are avoiding the word 'guns' (a bit out of context in a mythologic story), which is alright, but drums shouldn't be problematic, so the text can be longer and more dramatic: "The roar of his voice was like drums... he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers."
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There will be a last Hobbit test tournament the 2 July, then I will probably print all the new cards (after more than a year of playtesting and discussions ;)).
I'm glad to hear that! \:D/ It'd be the 1st Extension Set. It might need a name, so the extensions don't end with names like the albums of the jazzrock band Chicago (III, V, VI, VII, VIII... XXXVI!!!)... I'll try to squeeze my mind for a proper name. :-k
So this Extension Set will include:
- 5 fixed new Shadow cards for the Main Deck
- Add-ons of 12 cards, one for each of the 8 Supplementary Packs
- 1 new Swarm pack and 1 new Beatdown pack, each of 40 cards
Have a good while at the July 2 tournament! :)
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The year number and symbols are things nobody will note, so leave that perfectionist detail to the end. The correction of lore text problems will require another upload if you hurry too much. So keep calm and upload all those non-gameplay changes at the same time ;).
I'll hurry then with the lore text corrections, and any little gameplay error I might be missing now.
Yes, I will do that at the end. It will be great if you have all the lore text corrections before the 2 July ;)
Does it mean that for 8 players, there'll be 2x of the same Swarm pack? That 'd limit a lot the creativity of players :(.
Not really. At 8 players, you need enough cards to create a decent Shadow. With only 15 Troll cards in a total of 360 cards, nobody will ever build a correct Troll Shadow. That's why, we just need to double the number of copies of the same Swarm or Beatdown Pack.
I made a Scilab program to simulate drafting and counter-drafting of 8 players. In average, a player will draft 70% of his targeted Shadow (for example, 14 cards of the Spider Shadow).
I don't see a big risk with mixing both [Moria] packs.
For the Goblin Swarms I have nothing :(, although that card is still the main target of condition discard and doesn't synergize with the potential of Wargs.
Don't create an new culture, there are too many. The Goblin Army was from the whole Misty Mountains and "Moria" stands for them all, while Bolg's army is from all the Grey Mountains (but "Gundabad" stands for them; I know Gundabad was in the northern Misty Mountains but that's where the Grey Mountains orcs usually gathered, given its position and stronghold). The Moria Orcs of the film are often called "Dol Guldur Orcs" for the place of their gathering and arming, then they would be [Sauron] Orcs (with Site number 4). But no, [Moria] is what fits better in my opinion.
The only risk I saw was the Goblin Swarms card, but even with the keyword "Assailant" they will be no change, only with a culture change for the Azog swarm. Azog CotWA will greatly benefited from the Goblin Swarms, and will probably change it for an overpowered Shadow.
In a constructed environment on Gemp, the FP will have many advantages and ways to counter. There won't be more "boxing dwarves" (with 3 different generic weapons and Dwarven Song); followers will have many copies per deck; condition discard will be tough with An Accorn and Ancestral Knowledge; the [Dwarven] Ring of Thrór + Bofur + Dori will help Kili or Dwalin to absorb a whole swarm in a site; orc heads will roll to Battle of Azanulbizar and Dawn Take You All; Percy and Bard will lead a new host of defenders; Thranduil will be fighting at Thorin's command...
On gemp, in order to avoid some overpowered combos, we could have two different formats:
- Swarm Pack 1 + Beatdown Pack 1 + Bilbo Pack + Mirkwood Pack + Thorin Pack + Wizard Pack
- Swarm Pack 2 + Beatdown Pack 2 + Dain Pack + Esgaroth Pack + Thrain Pack + White Council Pack
There will be also the R-list to moderate things.
Gemp can handle the quantity of one card. For example, there will be only one available copie of Bard and 2 available copies of the Thror's Map.
To get the HDG on Gemp, try writting a PM to Merrick. I believe he can contribute with either direct work on such task, or guide in who can help you with it.
I'll try to PM them both soon too. ;)
I PM dmaz a lot. Try to PM them both, I need a HDG lobby ;).
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- Bolg's Army: I wonder if these swarm/wound cards are too powerful at the early game. I'm only seeing the chance to raise the Site Number of them to 4 (just like [Isengard] Orcs), for flavor purposes (and to wink the [Isengard] Orcs). But gameplay is what matters, so only if they happen to need to be softened at the early game merely, that change will delay them enough. And will make them mix a bit worse with the Wargriders pack (reducing OP combos).
Yes, this card is really strong. But all Gundabad Orcs are site 3, moreover before site 3 a mass wounding Shadow doesn't make a lot of woundings due to the early site 3 sanctuary.
I will change the wording of The Evil Becomes Stronger and His Wrath Was Redoubted soon.
Thank you for support!!! I need a name for the extension I ;).
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Bilbo: I change the 4 Bilbo for a better use of Noble Intentions. The Bilbo still have no big problem against a Gollum at strength 10-12 (followers, weapons, ring and boost also help).
Terrifying Legend: Remove [4] seems better than only [3].
Du Bekar: I change this card for one of your old proposition ;). I think it's simpler to use it now.
Nelya & Lemenya: They use to manage Wise allies, but the [Ringwraith] condition is now weaker. There are now 3 Nazguls against condition discard, 3 Nazguls against followers and 3 boosting Nazguls (similar as Trolls).
Attea, Toldea & Wk: Their twilight cost is reduced by the number of Wise characters. It seems better after playtests.
Azog Commander: Twilight reduction during the maneuver phase.
Assaulting Goblin Prevent wounds from all Orcs (Watchful Orc was an easy target).
Alfrid: He can now come from the discard pile to prevent too much participating [Dale] allies.
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- Bilbo: Great idea! Bilbo will fight more often, so Sting will be discarding more conditions (Expert Burglar can even play Battle Fury for such task :up:). But you removed all counters to Smaug, and since Bilbo spoke in riddles to him too, Master in Riddles should be able to reduce Smaug's strength too. But perhaps with a different reduction, like "...make Gollum strength -2 or Smaug strength -1 (limit -4)".
These new versions of Bilbo portray in a much better way his adventurer Tookish side (fight, risk, draw and cycle), marking a clear distance with the 4 Hobbits of the Fellowship. Just BRAVO, this is my favourite change in many months, so loaded with simpleness and flavor! =D> =D> =D>
- Terrifying Legend: Much better. The Shadow player will have to leave more twilight unused at shadow phase, gambling to survive and kill allies at regroup. :up:
- Du Bekar: Nice! (Though I liked a lot the assignment event to kill a troublesome minion like Azog or Crazy Cob; keep that idea for another pack ;).) You can change it a bit to be more versatile:
First, it should allow to replace allies too: Mirkwood and Esgaroth allies ("'To me! O elves and men!'"), Iron Hills allies ("'To me! O my kinsfolk!'"), to also portray Thorin & Company's role in the Bot5A; it'd be then "and have him replace an ally or a [Dwarven] companion". Second, it might synergize a bit with Bilbo if it replaced an ally / [Dwarven] companion that is "assigned to a skirmish" instead of "in a skirmish" (that way you can play it in Bilbo's skirmish to also trigger Sting, but losing the str +2 bonus; it'd be playable from deck by Expert Burglar).
The cost is very high, so those changes might be balancing that problem. ;)
- Nelya & Lemenya: Interesting. I like it, but I believe that the dmg bonus is both redundant and too powerful. Perhaps Lemenya might heal each other Nazgul to reload their stopping power when a condition is discarded, which happens at maneuver (Ancestral Knowledge), skirmish (Bifur, Sting), or regroup (Accorn). Or also when there is a double move, as there isn't anything to heal them. It might even be a costless "each time" action: "Each time the Free Peoples player discards a condition or the fellowship moves, you may heal each [Wraith] minion."
They are too "immortal" to lack any healing. Perhaps Nelya should have the same, I believe the dmg bonus should be only in the WK's hands to not be excessive (besides, the WK's damage lasts only 1 skirmish, which seems more balanced for these fierce strong minions).
- Attea, Toldea & Wk: This change worries me a lot. The main deck has 2 of the Wise, and that can arise to 3 (Wizard pack) or 4 (White Council pack) with ease. Or even to 5! Sum it with the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór (-2) and from discard with the [Wraith] condition (-2 again), and under the right circumstances they'll cost from -4 to -9, and the smaller ones from -2 (Thrór's Ring alone) to -4 (from discard). And with Sauron assigning them... and fighting! Playtest them again with the Sauron pack and those 2 FP packs and you'll see!
So in my opinion it'll be better with a fixed small number when spotting 2 Wise guys: "While you can spot 2 Wise characters, this minon's twilight cost is -2". Otherwise, with 4 or 5 Wise guys The Great Enemy (1 single card!) will bring those 3 big Nazzies + their master Sauron, for almost no twilight besides Sauron's...
I have a lot more to answer, but later :(. Besides, this is not my usual computer (where I store my ideas and drafts), and this PC's keyboard is very damaged (and clicking on this virtual keyboard is too slow a replacement ;)).
EDIT #1: Some additions. I'm still working with a virtual keyboard...
- Azog Commander: Seems better for a wider use of cards in hand at the Shadow phase (as you'll require to reserve less for maneuver), and to diversificate the dependence on the Were-worms. But with the Were-worms the cost will be -2, so the condition's active skill should add less twilight. [6] will be better I guess. After Azog gets exhausted, all remaining twilight will be useful to stop double moves (or to use with Hidden Attack or Terrifying Legend), so it must be reduced.
- Assaulting Goblin Seems OK, but not without a trigger. Considering it'll protect now the Watchful Orc, it might work only at battlegrounds (that way the Watchful Orc will be forced to add 'battleground' instead of 'forest' or 'river', which'd trigger the powerful skill of the Orkish Bow). Or might need to spot another [Moria] Orc to work...
I prefer "at a battleground". The idea is to prevent it from being pulled in the draft by players that won't focus on Moria (not only to counterdraft, but to use it). If it protects ANY Orc and without ANY specific trigger, other cultures like Sauron, Bolg's Army and even Smaug will want it badly as it'll be surprisingly useful for those.
- Alfrid: Definitely NOT (that way)! :evil: :down: Is OK to play him from discard, but not without a cost. Once you draw him, he can be an extra minion for a swarm, can soak 3 arrows if played from hand only to reappear immediatly, can resurrect in the fierce assignment if Dwalin or Glóin beheads him in a normal skirmish... all that for (0) and not even a slot in the hand. :cop: :cop: :cop:
Replaying him is OK, but needs a cost. A heavy cost, to be used only in key moments. "Remove 2 doubts" or "heal 2 Man allies" (and no cost reduction) will be fine. But with no cost and no way to get rid of him, he's clearly OP.
...
- Savage Warg: I think this Warg should be bearable by any Orc (regardless of cultures). The current version excludes Goblin Footman in the Main deck, all Goblin town/Azog's army [Moria] Orcs, and the [Sauron] versions of Azog and Bolg. A mounted Goblin Footman will be much better for some non-orc shadows like Spiders (as it's a 1 card combo solely), while Moria shadows will be more versatile with it. Besides, it'll be the only way to get a mounted Great Goblin (as Vicious Warg's pack will never meet him)! :P
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Bilbo: I change the Expert Burglar. He was too different from other Bilbo. I think it's ok now. The Collector of Treasure has a simpler text now.
I think the Master in Riddles is ok, it's doesn't need the Smaug part (the other Bilbo haven't any part like this).
Du Bekar: I replace it with the older version. The previous version was good during playtests, so I will keep it.
Assaulting Goblin: Done.
Azog Swarm: After many playtests, there was a problem of twilight pool to get a good swarm. The ability of the Vicious Warg is rarely used, moreover this Shadow is really good at the site 9 (far better than at any other site), so I decided to change the Vicious Warg. It needs the Watchful Orc to add twilight. After many tests, it seems balanced.
The Shadow also needs an ability which makes the Shadow player draw one or more cards (maybe only one because of Were-worms). I change the Demolition Troll's ability (and its card image)
Now, Azog only prevents the discard of Were-worms. It was the only goal of this passive ability, it could be a problem with the next Stone Giants Shadow.
Alfrid: The idea was to have the passive ability of Alfrid each time it would be useful. Before site 6, Alfrid costs [4].... I change ths replay part for Shadow (better to avoid sacrifice) without any cost reduction. His previous ability was great for swarming Shadows, with this additional minion I hope it will be still good.
Nazguls: There is a problem of twilight pool. We can compare it to the Trolls. For example, we can consider this situation:
a Shadow player hand with Yazneg, a Goblin Footman, two minions (Nazguls or Trolls) and other useful cards in the discard pile (Nazgul Sword, Troll Knife, other minions...) and Gandalf+Elrond in game and the corresponding replay condition (Troll Campfire or He Is Summoning His Servants): with 16 in the twilight pool (site 5 or region 3)
- the Troll Shadow will play 3 Trolls and one with a Troll Knife and no card in hand,
- the Nazgul Shadow will play Lemenya, Otsea, Attea and the Witch-King and one with a sword and 4 cards in hand.
Trolls will boost themselves in a passive way (Tom), one Troll is damage+1 and they are hard to killed by wounds (only Dawn take you all is useful). The Trolls are in a better situation here than Nazguls.
Sauron is in the same pack as the Nazguls. Yes, I need to playtest a bit more the [Sauron] Ring of Thror, but we need Sauron [5] in play to play it. Most of the time, the Shadow player will take the [Sauron] Ring of Thror from the discard pile ([2] with Danger Wrapped in Shadows), so [7]. With the previous situation, it will be the a bit better with 15 and 3 cards in hand and with Sauron in play. I don't know if it's too much, but the WK really needs this cost reduction.
I test the White Council pack against these Nazguls (with the reduction cost), and it's still balanced. The FP player brings Saruman or Elrond in the skirmish in case of a potential overwhelm. But I will playtest it again.
I change the abilities of Enquea and Cantea.
Savage Warg: I prefer not all Orcs. At the beginning of the Hobbit Draft Game, we consider Wargs for all Orcs, but it was too powerful with the Goblin Footman. Only [Gundabad] Orcs is ok. Goblins, Spiders, Trolls, Azog Shadow, Nazguls will have Enchanted River (maybe 3 times?).
Riddles in the Dark: I change the cost of the ability (only one card). It seems ok now.
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I hope it's not too late to change the cards. I've been very busy and stressed, and my health was affected. But I'm back again.
Yes, I will do that at the end. It will be great if you have all the lore text corrections before the 2 July ;)
* Lore text: There's a bunch of small things to say.
- Fimbul: His lore is very messy, seems robotic. Mentions too many nouns (and not a single adjective or adverb). This came now to my mind, is only a rough idea of what'd be a better replacement: His strong will and keen senses were only surpased by his burning hatred for Dwarves. Or you can use the wink PJ did to a Gimli's Two Towers film line: "Dwarf-blood!" ;)
- Expert Burglar: The text is fine but should be located a bit above (just like Collector of Treasures), to not cover the beatiful textured part at the bottom of the card. This small problem is also shared by these cards: The Orc Army, His Wrath Was Redoubled, Crown of Erebor and War for Gold.
- Bolg, Commander: "Bolg is the skillful leader of the Gundabad Orc pack" Instead of "pack", should be something like "army", "host" or "legions"; otherwise the lore and the subtitle will be contradictory. I prefer "host".
- Du Bekâr: Might be changed to instead portray the Battle of Azanulbizar, with any of these 2:
* "'Our forces rallied and drove the Orcs back. And our enemy had been defeated.'"
* "'Azog the Defiler learned that day that the line of Durin would not be so easily broken.'"
- The general lore text rule used by Decipher differs a bit with yours. This point is of little importance. And it's a bit too late to change this, because to correct it you'd need to change almost every card (including the Main deck). But here it is...
Decipher used:
1) no quotation marks (text) when the text was made by themselves (like Lord of Moria or Farin DE);
2) double quotation marks ("text") when the quote was from Tolkien as narrator (like Galadriel LoL or Staff Asunder); and
3) double marks envolving single marks ("'text'") when the quote was from a character in a book or film (like Frodo RA or Let Them Come!).
Your system uses the same for 2 and 3: only double marks. So we cannot tell if is a character like Gandalf or the narrator who sais "It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and mercy..."; we both know it's Gandalf at the FOTR book (chapter 2 I believe). It's only a small detail, but becomes important in some cases when Tolkien's narration is alternated with a character's words, like Their Halls of Stone: "'These are not holes,' said Gimli. 'This is the great realm and city of the Dwarrowdelf. And of old it was not darksome, but full of light and splendour, as is still remembered in our songs.'"
As said before, it's a bit late to change it. The easiest way is to keep things as they are, and if a case needs it (like Their Halls of Stone), use only then both double and single marks.
More Yet To Come.
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I know it's a bit late to answer, but here it is anyway. This week has been really troublesome and just couldn't answer before. :(
- Bilbo: I'd prefer the Expert Burglar have an active skill to "Skirmish: Play a [Dwarven] event to draw 2 cards and then discard 2 cards from hand". His if-Bilbo-wins skill is much weaker than the other 3, so perhaps will be better to not wait until he wins the skirmish ;).
The point about Master in Riddles riddling with Smaug is mainly about flavor. :P Making Smaug str -1 for each 2 cards discarded isn't big deal, will be useful only sometimes to not be overwhelmed, and even less often to defeat him.
- Alfrid: Seems much better. The FP player can kill him at a normal skirmish to allow Dale allies to fight free at fierce skirmishes. And can absorb 1 or 2 arrows if you don't believe he'll survive 'till the fierce assignment. Besides, there are 3 Dale archers, so he comes in handy to absorb the arrows they'll shoot if they carry weapons to help the Company. :up:
- Riddles in the Dark: Now the Shadow depends on vitality and X cards in hand, while Bilbo depends on 2X cards in hand. Seems more perilous, but the FP player can foresee it, and condition control can counter it. Will be very useful with grind/archery shadows. :up:
- Assaulting Goblin: :up:
- Du Bekar: Seems fine, I like a lot that event. :up:
- Savage Warg: Hmmm, alright. Fimbul comes with the new extension, so he can give those non-Orc shadows some muscle. He's a bit weaker than the Footman (str -1), but more durable and harmful (vit +1 and dmg+1) so with a mount should cause more troubles. :up:
- Enchanted River: I think it's very powerful as it is, so don't change it to 3 exertions. But it still has a spare card line, and as the title says, site 5 must be a river (but the only site 5 river is Forest River in the Mirkwood pack!!). So Enchanted River should have a new line at the top: "Site 5 is a marsh and a river."
I know such a line can't affect anything by now (except Barrels), but those keywords can be useful for the new Mirkwood or Men shadow cultures (or for the Shadow cards in the new Supplementary packs). It's mainly for flavor ;).
* Azog swarm:
- Vicious Warg: Cool change! Like the other cultures, they'll depend on the Watchful Orc. :up:
- Demolition Troll: Interesting, I like it. The new picture is much better (is actually a Troll, while the other is an "ogre"). :up: He can now feed both the Were-worms at maneuver and Hatred Rekindled at shadow.
- Azog Commander: Ok. But there is another vital condition on which they depend: Hatred Rekindled. If that card gets discarded, you'll rely only on Hosts of Thousands (or other copies in hand) to play the 2 orcs that set up the engine: Azog to play [Moria] minions from discard, and Watchful Orc to get the necessary battleground keyword. Try to add that to his text. But to have enough room, you'll need to remove either "While" or "from play".
* Nazguls:
- WK, Attea & Toldea: I agree that those big Nazguls will need the cost reduction, your explanation is enough. But I think only the Witch King shouldn't have a limit, while Attea and Toldea should be "limit -3". Because with the White Council pack there'll be often 4 Wise characters, and then 1 sole card (The Great Enemy) will bring too many advantages. Yes, Sauron is expensive and his Ring is a 2 card combo that seldom won't cost [7], but the 3 big Nazguls will spot 4 Wise guys and the ring will make them cost -2, so Attea and Toldea then will come for free and the WK for only [2].
And instead of choosing those big Nazzies with The Great Enemy (if you have the [Wraith] condition), you can choose Yazneg to get a bigger reduction (or Goblin Footman for the same + a Dol Guldur Blade!)... So if you have that event (+ both [Sauron] and [Wraith] conditions), for mere 10 twilight tokens and 4 Wise characters you'll play Sauron + his Ring (str 15 dmg+1, direct assignment), Attea (str 12), Toldea (str 12), Witch King (str 14) + 1 or 2 blades... and will still have 7 cards in hand!
A "limit -3" will make Attea and Toldea cost [3] with 3+ Wise guys, or [1] with also Sauron + Ring of Thrór or from discard... and (0) with both. That increases a bit the cost of the example above. Seems much better. So Attea and Toldea would have this text: "This minion is twilight cost -1 for each Wise character you spot (limit -3). The Witch King would have no limit. Enquea is a bit different, he's a middle-point between a big fighter like Attea and a disruptive middle strength one like Cantea. I believe he can have a "limit -2".
- Enquea & Cantea: Ok for the new skills.
In the "Trolls vs Nazguls" example you provide, you can still discard 3 cards with Hatred Rekindled to get the Footman again and another Blade on your Nazgul. The cost is still 16 twilight if you save Yazneg in hand (and can now be discarded with Attea/Dol Guldur Blade!). So you'd get 2x 11 str nazguls (Lemenya and Otsea with weapons), 1x 12 str Attea and 1x 14 str WK; all fierce. And 2 cards in hand, 1 being an Orc (Yazneg). You lose the damage bonus, but increase a lot the strength of those fierce wraiths.
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Thank you for your remarks. I hope you are all right, and your health will be better soon.
I modify a lot of cards after the last tournament (Expert Burglar, Pity, Riddles, Caught, Alfrid, the Evil becomes Stronger, Azog's Mace and a lot of cards in the swarm pack 2 and beatdown pack 2).
I hope this will be the final version (I will change the lore text and the bottom of the card at the end).
Pity this card gives me a lot of problem (the previous version was far too weak), I hope this is better now, otherwise I will bring back the Bilbo's Pony :(.
Enchanted River: I prefer a simple card for a simple use. Btw, I made a mistake : I wanted to write 3 copies (and not 3 times) of Enchanted River in the Wizard Pack and 2 copies of Savage Warg.
Azog, Commander: the previous ability of Azog was too strong, I made it a bit weaker. You are right this Shadow needs a lot Hatred Rekindled, but the FP player needs some ways to counter this Shadow.
Nazguls: they are ok now.
Bilbo, Expert Burglar: better now.
Tell me if you have any remarks on the current cards. I will print them soon...
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Thank you for your remarks. I hope you are all right, and your health will be better soon.
It comes and goes... but thanks my good friend! ;)
- Bilbo, Expert Burglar: Seems fine.
- Orkish Bow: Exert or discard, great! :up:
- Caught in a Sack: Stronger as a condition. Nice! :up:
- The Evil Becomes Stronger: 2 exertions + an arrow was too much. :up:
- Alfrid: Bravo! =D> Just awesome! He can either take arrows, or play a condition, but not both. He can flatter a Dale man to be back in the game. And can join a swarm without costing a hand slot. =D>
- Pity: Hmmm, seems that Bilbo had a hard time winning his skirmishes. Ok as a skirmish event, but as an event it must be something very important (a game changer). And I believe it MUST allow to recover things from discard, so it can counter Riddles (which discards your cards either from hand or from play): "Make Bilbo strength +2. If he wins this skirmish, you may prevent all wounds to losing minions and spot X [Dwarven] followers to choose one: heal X companions, or place X [Shire] cards from your discard pile on top of you draw deck." 6 lines.
So you can either heal, or recover [Shire] cards. The 2nd option interacts with Bilbo's new skills: he wins, then you play this event, and then use his skill to draw the [Shire] cards you just recovered (or use Barrels to draw them at regroup). You can either recover events for a double move (Barrels, Skillful Negociator, another copy of Pity), or discarded items/Thrush to play at the next turn. But if you don't double, those [Shire] cards will clog your hand (and you'll need to stop to replay recovered items), so shouldn't be OP. An event to fight and double move can represent well Bilbo as an adventurer.
Pity should NOT depend on The One Ring. It was Bilbo's kind spirit, in spite of the Ring's evil influence. And Gandalf's words in the film: "True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."
- Nazguls: I've been thinking about the twilight reduction. Compared to LOTR tcg, they must rely on playing orcs, roam a lot more, and lack Morgul Gates / Black Marshal / Ghastly Host to make them viable in group (or against choke). So those big Nazzies can be -1 twilight per Wise guy, with a "(limit -2)" to emulate Morgul Gates (and no limit for The Witch King).
The [Wraith] condition reduces their cost, but the real reduction is -1 or even 0: only Fimbul or Footman+Blade cost less than the reduction. So I think Attea, Toldea and Enquea should have a "limit -2".
- Enchanted River: More copies allow to play it sooner (hopefully before the Company moves to 5). And to discard it more often, but in that case the cost [2] can be restrictive. So yes, change it to 3x copies, but reduce then its cost to only [1]... Hmmm, I don't think that a line like "Site 5 is a river" will be confusing anyone ;).
- Savage Warg Another option is to allow the Savage Warg to be borne by ANY Orc, but reducing the str bonus so a mounted Goblin Footman won't be so powerful. "Cost 2, Str +2, Vit +1" will make the Footman a str 10 vit 2 fierce minion merely. And will be more efficient in twilight.
- Azog, Commander: Seems better without the cost reduction :up:. But I guess Battle of Azanulbizar (and Ring of Thrór replaying it) is really powerful against this Azog, he can be exhausted before using his skill (or simply killed after using it). If exhausted, his response skill is useless, and he'll exhaust himself... :-k
A healing trick can solve that problem. Were-worms might say "Maneuver: Play an Orc to heal an Orc". Or an unique minion like The Wolves Army might say "When you play this minion, you may heal a [Moria] minion and play a [Moria] card..."
I hope this will be the final version.
I hope so. To be included in Gemp, each card might need a different number at the right bottom to be identificated.
I'll be writing more in the next days (or at least that's what I hope ;)).
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Pity: With the previous version of Pity, no one wanted it during the draft phase and during the tournament it was only use once.
An event with a direct impact seems far better for the players, the best way would be removing doubts, but this will unbalance the game against corrupt Shadows.
We can change the title and the lore text of the current card, which is really good in play (similar as Phial 10R13). Moreover, Old Trush could bring back [Shire] cards from the discard pile.
Nazguls: Ok, I will change these cards.
Enchanted River: [2] seems ok, it's a really good card in any Shadow. I think I will let it with 2 copies, Ancestral Feuds is similar and has only 2 copies.
During a draft tournament, players took a lot of time reading all the cards, that's why I prefer a shorter version ;).
Savage Warg: I prefer not, it's probably one of the best Warg. I want to balance it with the Wargs Shadow.
Azog: Yes, Azog CotWA is often killed, but he brings before a lot of minions which will make a lot of wounds. Btw, several assaulting Goblins protect him very well (or only one with a Warg). The problem with the discard of Were-Worms was during maneuver phase, it stopped entirely the Shadow if there was too few twilight tokens. The discard of Were-Worms at the end of the maneuver phase is a smaller problem. There is some ways to play it back (The Wolves Army, Not At Home...).
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- Pity: Ok for not removing doubts (the Accorn does already that). The new event is really powerful, but should exclude either Smaug or keywords, otherwise Bilbo (3) + Sting (5) + The One (7) + this event (9) will face a damageless Smaug and take only 1 doubt (and Smaug will lose fierce!).
Is true that Old Thrush recovers things, but is discarded in the process and can't return. And the pack still lacks healing. The pack has a problem with discarding, which is previous to and aggravated by the shadow add-on Riddles in the Dark (due to being based on 3 events and 2 discard-to-use items/followers); while the other add-on (Caught in a Sack) deepens the lack of wound-remotion (accompanied by a really high exertion demand of the FP cards). So the only FP add-on must fix those imbalances, while giving Bilbo more fighting power. That's why I proposed an event with those 2 options to choose if Bilbo wins his skirmish.
Your new event is really good, but can't fix those 2 absences. So changing the title, lore text and picture won't be enough; besides, this pack is the right moment to confront Gollum's evil and riddles with some pity from the Shirefolk.
A last thing. An event as this will have a bigger impact if has 3 copies.
- Nazguls: Great! I still can't see the changes, probably you still don't upload them, that's ok...
Attea has a lore text error, because "most" and "strongest" are both superlative terms. So remove one or the other. Or both, and leave it as "stronger" (because to have the most strength, they needed also their foes' terror collaborating, that's why Aragorn, Gandalf, Glorfindel and few others like steward Boromir the First could withstand them). "The Nazgûl were strongest/stronger at night".
- Enchanted River: OK. :up:
- Savage Warg: There's still another option: make it cost [2] and give str +2 and vit +1, but also say "bearer is fierce (and strength +2 if is [Gundabad])". That way a mounted Goblin Footman'd be [5] str 10 vit 2 fierce, while a mounted Fimbul'd be [4] str 11 vit 3 fierce dmg+1, or Watchful Orc [6] str 12 vit 2/4 and fierce.
- Azog: Ok. Seems right then to let Were-worms be discarded after doing its job. But I think Azog should have a very costly alternative to survive 'till skirmishes. Perhaps if you add at the end of its Maneuver skill "You may remove 3 doubts to heal Azog" (to exert and immediatly heal), he'll have enough vitality to face the Company, while still getting an army from discard pile. I'd be rarely used, mostly at site 9 for the last assault (and will give utility to doubts if Ravenhill, Northern Slopes or Thrór's Throne is the site 9). A mounted Azog is much stronger than a mounted Assaulting Goblin or Wolves Army, he should be fighting at the very end.
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- Underground Lake: The new version doesn't give anything to the FP player. I think it may be "Maneuver: play a Shadow condition or a Ring from your draw deck or discard pile (limit once per turn player)". Or "a [Shire] Ring" to be more strict to the lore, but "any Ring" will help also the Sauron pack and the FP packs Thráin, White Council and the soon-to-come Elrond pack.
- Dragon's Malice: A wording error. Should say "If you can spot Smaug and Bilbo is wearing...". The current wording might be interpreted as "both Smaug and Bilbo are wearing The One Ring", which is an impossible gameplay option and won't mislead anyone, but sounds weird and a bit ugly.
- Vicious Warg: Ok to refer to the next site, but there's no next site at 9. Perhaps should add some twilight, but less than [3], when the current site is a battleground: "When you play this possession, you may add [1] if at a battleground site (or [3] if the fellowship's next site is a battleground)." Remember it's a swarm shadow, the mount is very expensive, more proper for a beatdown shadow. At site 9 your FP cards in hand will feed Were-worms (or Hatred Rekindled), but still a [2] to [4] Orc + a [3] mount is too much for a swarm.
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: The new version is weaker than Barrels. I think it should be something like this: "If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, exert a Wizard and spot Beorn to wound each minion once (or twice if you discard Beorn) (except Smaug)." But your new version is too weak for such important character, and such high cost.
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- Pity: Yes, the current card is a very good counter to Smaug (not the Shadow Smaug, since Bilbo will take 2 doubts). We could change the current card for another card, but not with a winning condition (Bilbo will not win skirmishes very often, so the card will not be very attractive). I will keep the current version of Pity until there will be another good proposition.
The name of the card could be change for something about the power of the Ring and the stealth of Bilbo.
- Nazguls: Done now.
- Azog: I think Azog is ok with the current version. No need to use the doubts, Bolg CoTOA is also good in this Shadow or even Danger wrapped in Shadows. Ravenhill could be also good for the Azog Swarm (removing an exhausted Azog from the game, then replaying a lively Azog from discard pile). The Shadow player can play a lot of Goblin Footman, bringing back many Vicious Warg (I would like to put it in 4 copies, but what can I remove ?).
- Vicious Warg: I made this new ability to balance the difference between site 9 (battleground) and other sites. At site 9, the Shadow player doesn't need a [4] Orc. The Vicious Warg only costs [2] with Were-Worms. Moreover, the Battle of the Five Armies helps a lot this Shadow. After many tests, it seems balanced now.
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Remember that the card is in the same pack as Beorn. Beorn cannot be discarded and will easily take back this event for a good double move. I think 2 minions are enough. That's why this [Gandalf] event must be a bit weaker than Barrels.
- Dragon's Malice: The wording was similar to Wraith-world. But you are right, I change it.
- Underground Lake: If the FP player can play the Ring, there will be no good advantage for Goblin Town. It's simpler with the current card.
- Savage Warg: A Warg for all Orcs is really powerful for the Wargs Shadow (btw the Vicious Warg will be taken a lot of time by these players.... maybe only +1 or +2 in strength for the Vicious Warg? As a muticulture penalty.). The Savage Warg will be really good in the Gollum Shadow, the Sauron Shadow and the Bolg Shadow too.
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I need a name for the extension I ;).
The cards that have most presence and importance in this Extension set are the 2 Shadow packs. So the name must be in accordance to those Shadow packs' stories. Those packs portray the final clash of good and evil forces: the Company vs Smaug, the White Council vs Sauron and the Free Peoples armies vs the Shadow armies.
So I got this 3 possible names by now:
1.- The Dragon and The One. (A film quote of Thráin.) The alliance between these 2 great forces of evil shapes the rise of an unexpected War, only to be interfered by an old Dwarf-lord's thirst for revenge, the tireless vigilance of The Wise, and a hidden power at work who sets the good folks' differences against their own annihilation.
2.- The Gathering of the Clouds. After the Company enters Erebor and the White Council assaults its old Enemy's lair, the evil's plans are untimely unleashed and as result many armies march and meet to an inevitable end before the Mountain's foot.
3.- The Clouds Burst. The Armies meet at the field, and those who were friends of old are now at the edge of strife and slaughter. But the tide turns, as an outnumbering invading host forces them to set their differences aside and fight not for gold and glory, but for survival.
I like the first most. Tell me what you think. ;)
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- Pity: Hmm, ok. There are 2 possibilities now, let's work both. Your really powerful event lacks a proper title and lore text, and the original Pity might remain if a substantially better proposition is done. But I'll put much effort on preserving Pity, because the pack will desperately need healing and/or card recovery.
* For your event, I'd change the title to any of these: "Another Power At Work" or "Meant to Find It", showing Ilúvatar's providence interfering put Bilbo's path and hand on the One Ring, in the midst of darkness. A corresponding lore text (limited to only 2 lines, as the current game text uses 5) would be this: "...it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!" (Gandalf, FotR book I, chapter 2)
A new picture'd be necessary. When Bilbo takes picks The Ring with his fingers and examines it. It's at 02:11:34 in the EE.
* For the old Pity, ok to not be dependant on winning skirmishes. It might prevent "all wounds to the losing side" (either Bilbo or the minions!) or even "all wounds in his skirmish" (which is shorter and prevents also mid-skirmish wounds), and if he wears The One, place X cards from discard on top of the draw deck. X can be a fixed number like 3, or a variable depending on Bilbo's resistance (limit 3 or 4), Bilbo's vitality, [Dwarven] companions... An example:
"Make Bilbo strength +2 and prevent all wounds in his skirmish. If he wears the One Ring, you may place 3 [Shire] cards from your discard pile on top of your draw deck." (5 lines)
Has almost 2 spare lines, so can still be changed a good bunch. Instead can be "[Shire] or [Dwarven] cards", "Free Peoples cards", have an option to "heal 3 companions or place 3 cards...", or make the number a variable X and explain "while X is...". This new version is much stronger, as prevents wounds to Bilbo and doesn't depend on winning skirmishes (but to draw those recovered cards, you still need Bilbo's "if-he-wins" skill ;)). And can still be shaped a lot at your will!
- Nazguls: :up:
- Dragon's Malice: :up: But I forgot to mention a thing about this card: if Bilbo wears the One he'll be str +4 (7) and won't take wounds. With Sting (9) he'll easily confront Smaug, and the dragon won't overwhelm him without events. Followers make things even worse, Dori being the most problematic... All in all, it's ok to make Bilbo stronger but perhaps str +1 will be better than str +2...
Another option is to keep the str +2, but allow to exert any companion Bilbo besides the doubt if Smaug wins. I like that better, but don't know how it'll behave in the game.
- Underground Lake: There will still be an advantage: playing a condition from deck (or recovering from discard). Conditions can be huge, and Riddles can push to discard the newly-played One Ring. And can be huge with Sauron and the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór (which as only 2 copies in draft)...
- Azog: The doubt-skill idea was for flavor (I just cannot like the idea of Azog being killed by Kili or an event at the most important site! :P). Removing 3 or 6 doubts to keep him (your best orc warrior!) alive, or to allow him to play 1 or 2 more minions IF you can make the twilight, doesn't seem excessive in my opinion. Moreover with the new weaker Azog (no cost reduction, and having to exert to protect the Were-worms)...
A last thing: if he has to exert to protect the Were-worms, might protect ANY [Moria] condition instead. That way a Banner of Command in a new Extension would have a support from such skill. (The Stone Giants will probably work only with posessions and events).
The Shadow player can play a lot of Goblin Footman, bringing back many Vicious Warg (I would like to put it in 4 copies, but what can I remove ?).
Perhaps Azog. Bolg has 3 copies, while Azog has 4. Or Were-worms, which has 3 copies can is still very useful with 2, as The Wolves Army can play it from draw deck. I'd try with Were-worms (to not reduce the minion count). Hmmm, changed my mind: if Were-worms had only 2 copies, it'd be easy to counterdraft. Try reducing Azog then to 3 copies (like Were-worms, can be pulled from deck by The Wolves Army, and from discard by Hatred Rekindled / Hosts of Thousands).
EDIT: Here are th 3 missing cards.
- Savage Warg: That's the idea, to make it usable by other cultures. But cultures that discard Orcs to be played / gain benefits (Spiders, Nazguls, Trolls) won't like to spend [7] or more in a Footman (3), this mount (3) and a Gundabad Orc of [1] or more. So those players who seek Nazguls or Spiders in the draft, they'll pick this Savage Warg mostly to counterdraft it.
Can be cost [3], str +2 & vit +1, with a bonus of str +1 for Gundabad orcs; it'd be the worst Warg in cost vs benefit for non-Gundabad orcs, but exactly like War-warg for Gundabad ones. Or can be cost [2], str +2 and vit +1 to anyone, and +2 bonus to Gundabad for a total +3 str (it'd be still adding valuable vitality and fierce keyword to other cultures). But if this warg can't be borne by any Orc, non-Gundabad Orcs like the Great Goblin or the [Sauron] versions of Azog and Bolg won't have any mount option to make them fierce and/or more durable (except if they meet the Swarm pack 2).
- Vicious Warg: There's another thing this mount might do if the current site is a battleground: draw a card. That way, Demolition Troll might do anything else instead of drawing a card.
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Hmmm, alright, 2 minions is enough :up:. But Barrels is a regroup action, and as such can stop perilous Shadow regroup actions (Smaug, Jail, Bolg's army...). And the cost much higher: discard Beorn (can only return with The Eagles Are Coming) and add [3] (which'll feed the next shadow phase). And can't make the move limit +1. So I firmly believe it should be a regroup event, and not a response to double moves.
[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Regroup
Spell.
Discard Beorn to discard up to 2 minions (except Smaug).
(3 lines)
Now, there's another loose end. This event takes place in the film/book at site 9, where there's no regroup phase. So this event should be usable at either "site 9" or at "a battleground" site. I think it should be this: "At a battleground site, you may play this event during a skirmish phase".
Too mighty, I know, but can be controlled if it affects only minions that are "not assigned to a skirmish". That way, at site 9 Bilbo or Thorin won't be saved from being killed in a fight, but whatever is the end of that fight, Beorn can kill the minions that survived it to erase their influence (The Orc Army, Sauron) or prevent them from participating in the fierce round...
[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Regroup
Spell.
Discard Beorn to discard up to 2 minions not assigned to skirmish (except Smaug).
At a battleground site, you may play this event during a skirmish phase.
(5 lines, so the current 2-lines lore text can remain unchanged)
I made this event, and later noticed it is very similar to [Shire] (12R120) Diversion (in both effect and wording). But Diversion can discard a minion that's still skirmishing. So Beorn can't save Bilbo from being killed by, let's say, Bolg mounted + a Troll. But if Bilbo survives somehow (Gwaihir can cancel the skirmish due to Bolg's mount), Beorn can then destroy those minions (and erase the Troll's skirmish skill, and Bolg's fierce skirmish).
This new version can portray much more precisely the story told by Tolkien: Thorin fights Bolg + his Bodyguards (at a battleground site), and is wounded to death (Beorn can't save him). Then comes Beorn and crushes the orc leader + his bodyguards (Bolg's leadership vanishes among his troops). But the damage is done, as Thorin + his nephews die irremediably. Those orcs that survived and are still willing to fight ("fierce"), don't have the support of Bolg's command anymore.
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- His Wrath Was Redoubled: The 2 regroup (or skirmish/regroup) events you proposed will make too much damage against a Bolg Shadow. Barrels needs two exerts on Dwarves to be played (so it is more balanced against a mass wounding Shadow). Another way to play this event seems necessary if the player doesn't draft Beorn. I prefer the current version.
- Vicious Warg: I don't think adding a new line on this card is a good idea. It's ok with the current version. The 4 copies of Azog seem necessary, if a player drafts a lot of good [Moria] cards and can't get Azog, he can't play this Shadow (moreover, Hatred+Host must take back Azog and Watchful Orc at each site).
- Azog: Adding new lines only for flavor isn't a good idea. I prefer only Were-Worms, we will have freedom for [Moria] conditions that way.
- Savage Warg: Ok for any Orc, but with no advantage for [Gundabad] Orcs. It will be simpler with str.+2 and vita. +1 for all Orcs.
- Underground Lake: I think you missread my answer. I talked about the advantage of Goblin Town.
- Dragon's Malice: I delete the strength bonus of Bilbo. It wasn't balanced.
- An Invisible Ring: Ok for this new card. I still don't like your new version of Pity, not punchy at all (players need cards with a direct effect). Sure, Riddles in the Dark could discard the One Ring and Sting, but this condition is rarely used in game. The FP players tries to avoid in all possible ways exerting or wounding Bilbo. And the Bilbo pack is the only pack with 3 FP cards discarding Shadow conditions.
I like The Clouds Burst most ;). Thank you!
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Let it be called The Clouds Burst! :up:
- Azog: Ok. A card like Goblin Reinforcements would be nice here, but is ok as it is.
- Vicious Warg: Perhaps this might "heal a [Moria] minion" at a battleground.
- Dragon's Malice: :up:
- Savage Warg: Ok for str +2 vit +1. But reduce the cost to [2] only (to be like Warg).
- Underground Lake: Goblin-town still has a higher Shadow number by [1] (just like The Troll Hoard allows the FP player only to use its text, and costs [1] more). And can be better for the FP player, who can play it with Watchful Orc to protect his/her own fellowship (or with Thrór's Map if both packs meet). And remember that Bag End doesn't provide a real advantage over Bilbo's Kitchen, just like Mirkwood doesn't have anything over Old Forest Road.
Moreover, if the [Shire] event "An Invisible Ring" / "Pity" is going to use The One Ring, the pack must provide a site to play it from deck to be consistent (only Gandalf the Grey will get it with relative ease). Might be only "a [Shire] Ring", but if is "any Ring" Sauron will be greatly benefited (even if he cannot spend [2] to be able to fight, getting that Ring into discard pile will allow the [Sauron] condition to start cycling it). As a small detail, it's a river to trigger Barrels / Orkish Bow.
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Ok. You mention 2 things the event needs: must be a response to a double move, and must provide an alternative cost. Alright. I made this new version to satisfy both aspects, while keeping the skirmish part... In short, does EXACTLY what my regroup/skirmish version did, except that now at regroup requires a double move to trigger (and thus doesn't block Bolg's army orcs), AND has an alternative cost if you don't have Beorn.
[3] His Wrath Was Redoubled [Gandalf]
Event • Response
Spell.
If the fellowship moves* (or if a skirmish ends at a battleground), discard Beorn or 2 [Gandalf] cards to discard up to 2 minions not assigned to skirmish (except Smaug).
(* worded like Theoden Leader of Spears, to keep it at 4 lines + the line used by "spell" only)
It's again an "if the fellowship moves again" event, but can be played at a skirmish if at a battleground (note that only your opponent can force that keyword). At a skirmish, can be played only when the skirmish ends, so can't save Bilbo from being killed in a fight (and works like Knight's Mount: can't target a minion that is losing a skirmish to that knight, only others that already aren't skirmishing)...
The alternative costs discards [Gandalf] cards in play. There are 5 other [Gandalf] cards than Beorn that stay on the board: Gandalf, Glamdring, Gwaihir, Radagast and Wizard Staff (White Council pack can broaden the list with Saruman and Narya); all are expensive and very useful cards. So you can discard any 2 of those, if you lack Beorn (or want to preserve him). Radagast can't fight at another site than 5 (unless meets Bilbo's pack), so this alternative cost can give him another use at the late game.
- An Invisible Ring: Good name! :up:
- Pity: This can be really powerful. Helps to win a skirmish (str +2), or to lose it well (prevents wounds, and the pump reduces the chances of being overwhelmed). By preventing wounds, you prevent Riddles from triggering (unless you exert), and absorbs all damage bonuses (Smaug, Azog + his Mace, Bolg, Witch King, Sauron + Ring of Thrór...)! If he wears the Ring, you can recover [Shire] things used/discarded, and get them if he wins the skirmish with Bilbo's new skills.
The main problem of your event is that doesn't fix the 2 problems of the pack: lack of healing (with big exertion pressure), and lack of card recovery (with big discard pressure). Another big problem is that destroys Smaug by removing his fierce and damage +2 keywords (he will only fight once and against Bilbo, he can merely try to overwhelm him but Bilbo's already pumped to 7 + weapon + followers, and can be bearing Dori).
Some healing can be added to Pity, to counter the 2 problems of the pack:
"Make Bilbo strength +2 and prevent all wounds in his skirmish. If he wears The One Ring, you may heal a companion and place up to 3 Shire cards from your discard pile on top of your draw deck." (5 lines, there's still 1 free to add more power...)
Or might even be the opposite, for more healing and less recovering: "you may heal 2 companions and place 1 [Shire] card from your discard pile...".
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- Savage Warg: The [3] cost is a kind of penalty culture. This warg can be used by all Orcs, and the effect is really powerful.
- Underground Lake: Ok for the difference between main deck sites and booster sites (they are better, because they have to be grabbed). But each player can play Goblin Town, so there is a way to get the One Ring. I change it only for the flavor, but now it's only from the draw deck: I have not enough room for the "from discard pile", and "Shadow" condition seems necessary to not confuse players. Since the site is really powerful for the Shadow player, the cost must be [2] rather than [3].
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Ouch! That card is really complicated for new players to understand. I know you want to see Beorn skirmishing at site 9, but the current event will exactly be played most of the time during the move to site 9. The discard of [Dwarven] followers is great since cards like To Me! O my Kinsfolk! is very rarely used: the FP player has to bring back [Dwarven] followers before playing this [Gandalf] event.
- Pity: In a LOTR TCG, Phial 10R is a great card, stopping a fierce 19P Balrog with bounder+sword. Smaug costs much less than the Balrog and will be played at site 8 from the discard pile without any other cost. Smaug is just a supplementary minion in all the Shadows (except the Smaug one). In the Smaug Shadow, Bilbo puts the One Ring and will take a wound=2 doubts (similar as 2 winning skirmishes from Smaug with Dragon's Malice). Moreover, Orkish Aggressor will put pressure on Bilbo to avoid this situation.
Lore of Imladris is not often used. A pack with too much healing will unbalanced this even more. Old Thrush can bring back a lot of cards from the discard pile.
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I'm sorry for this absence. And much sorrier for the current situation in your country, my good fellow... :(
- Savage Warg: Alright. :up:
- Underground Lake: Perhaps there'll be enough room for "discard pile" if you change "The One Ring" for "a [Shire] Ring", and "(limit once per player)" for "(limit 1 per player)".
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: You say that your version will be played at a double move from 8 to 9, but that depends a lot on Smaug. If Bard can't kill him, Smaug will follow your trail to site 9 (which is a really hard double move). If Narzug did a good previous job, Smaug will have total freedom to discard his own fellow minions to ditch your important FP defenses like Sting, Dori or Orcrist (which is a much harder double move). Even if Bard is totally healthy, Smaug can often sacrifice himself to discard Dori or Sting... All in all, in the same scenario where Barrels would discard those minions that fuel Smaug's discarding, this [Gandalf] event will often be trying belatedly to discard minions that were already discarded by Smaug, in which case it'll be totally useless. All that I try to do with my version is to provide a new utility at site 9.
You're right, my version is hard to read for inexperienced players. And it's better to discard [Dwarven] followers (the idea of [Gandalf] cards was only to reduce card lines). Correcting those 2 points, my version would look like this:
"Spell.
If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase (or if a skirmish ends at a battleground), discard Beorn (or 2 [Dwarven] followers) to discard up to 2 minions not assigned to skirmish (except Smaug)."
The only gameplay difference with your version is that can be played at a skirmish at site 9 (or at a forced battleground), where as said before it'll only discard immediately before fierce-skirmishes. Besides that, it uses 6 lines (1 for "spell", and 5 for the rest), which requires to either remove "spell" or reduce the lore text. Or to keep the "spell" keyword, but using the rest of that 1st line with game text (like Wizard Storm)...
- Pity: Lore of Imladris can heal some wounds, yes. But if the new card supplies some healing for Bilbo, you'll be able to use better 3 of the 5 original cards (Contract, Negociator and Old Thrush). If that card recovers things from discard, you'll be using more and better 4 of the original 5 cards (Negociator, Old Thrush, Accorn and Barrels). So the key is then to heal Bilbo ONLY (Lore of Imladris will help the Dwarves). And to recycle [shire] cards.
Yes, Phial Star-glass is really mighty. I fear too mighty for this limited card pool. I agree that Smaug is supplementary mostly, but if the Shadow didn't do much harm before site 8 he can kill or weaken companions, just before the !final strike. And Star-glass can stop Smaug's skirmish potential only, leaving his vitality untouched for his regroup skill to start discarding your things: Sting, Old Thrush, Burglar's Contract, Dori... Again, I believe discard is the main weakness of this pack, and An Invisible Ring does nothing to counter it, and might even be deepening it that way (however, Barrels can reduce Smaug's fuel)...
Orkish Aggressor can put pressure on Bilbo, but Bilbo should be clearing doubts well with the Accorn.
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The situation is very sad :(.
I will playtest these 3 cards (Underground Lake, HWWR and Invisible Ring), but I'm not sure they will change (or maybe HWWR for a simple maneuver event?).
No other thoughts on the other cards? I can print them?
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The situation is very sad :(.
:'(
No other thoughts on the other cards? I can print them?
I reviewed all again, and found no problems at all. :up:
But don't forget to include the changes of lore text (see this specific post (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg91967.html#msg91967)) and the symbol/year in the bottom right corner (remember it must be 2016, and also all new versions of Bilbo must be "A" instead of "(1)", because were modified). After that, all should be OK to print them...
At the bottom right corner, there's also a rectangle where Decipher included the card's set, rarity and number. Perhaps your cards will need a code like "2 D 3" (that would be "set 2, supplementary pack D, card #3 of that pack", it's only a rough idea ;)). In order to index and identify them better in Gemp (and possibly in a HDG card Wiki).
I will playtest these 3 cards (Underground Lake, HWWR and Invisible Ring), but I'm not sure they will change (or maybe HWWR for a simple maneuver event?).
Try to playtest your HWWR against Smaug + a shadow that survives well until regroup. And try to playtest both versions of the [shire] event and HWWR, if is possible.
- An Invisible Ring: I just noticed, Bilbo wearing The One would be nullifying Sauron's game text (both Sauron and Bilbo can't be assigned by The Necromancer, so it's easy for the FP player). Which goes against the story. I think it should exclude Sauron, and perhaps the Nazguls too as they "lived" in the Twilight World: "...remove the game text ... from a minion skirmishing him (except Sauron and [Wraith] minions) and make...".
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: I'll be thinking about a simple maneuver [gandalf] spell. Perhaps this:
"Discard Beorn (or 2 [dwarven] followers) to make an opponent assign 3 wounds to minions (except Smaug). At a battleground, you may assign those wounds instead."
Hope this helps.
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After some tests, I change Dragon's Malice and Wrath of the Dragon. Smaug was not a good doubt machine, I hope it's ok now.
I take your idea of His Wrath Was Redoubled, but in assignment phase ;).
I didn't change An Invisible Ring, the text is long enough.
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- His Wrath Was Redoubled: Assignment phase... even better! :up: It has a small miswording in the title, as says "redoubted" (with a 't') instead of redoubled. But seems great!
- An Invisible Ring: Including an exception won't spend much room. It's just that doesn't make much sense to use The One Ring against its own maker (besides, being invisible won't help). Might be Sauron only (not including "[wraith] minions" or "Nazgûl"): "(except Sauron)". Or "(except Sauron and Nazgûl)".
- Dragon's !Malice: Seems OK, it'll force to use Bilbo more often to face Smaug = per site, 3 doubts (+ some followers' aid cost), + 1 doubt also per each Orkish Aggressor he'll need to discard. :up:
- Wrath of the Dragon: It's active skill seems better as a skirmish ability. But I wonder how will Smaug kill allies... that'll depend on the FP pack and the FP player, and can happen seldom. I'd keep that idea, but mixing it with the previous direct wound skill:
"Each time Smaug kills a character, you may wound a character (or add a doubt if the killed character was an ally)." Those are not 2 lines though, but 3.
Seems to be very few things to adjust before the final version gets released! :mrgreen:
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- An Invisible Ring: I change it for only Sauron (5 card lines!), but I removed the "(except card type and race)" from the Phial of Galadriel. The text remains correct?
- Wrath of the Dragon: I iput something new on this card (2 card lines, no more). When Smaug kills a character, the Shadow player can play an Orc from his discard pile (Yazneg or another one, but there is no fierce Orc) to have some fuel to use the regroup ability of Smaug ;). It seems balanced.
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- An Invisible Ring: Seems fine. There's a Wiki page for game text (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/game_text), which says the CRD states "Card titles, subtitles, and items on the card type line (card types, races, and classes) are not game text." So given that rule, the exception specified by Star-glass is totally redundant. :up:
- Wrath of the Dragon: Neat idea! :up: There are 2 fierce Orcs (The Great Goblin and the Wolves Army), but are expensive and specific to the 2 Swarm packs, and aren't too strong (str 10) so Thorin might deal with them (then it's safer to play non-fierce ones).
- His Wrath Was Redoubled: The title still says "redoubTed". Everything else is perfect. But this new version has 1 spare card line for lore text, so you may return the part "wolves and" which was trimmed to allow it to fit into 2 lines: "The roar of his voice was like drums... he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers."
I reviewed all new cards again, and again found no problems. But Dark Bats might have 1 more game text line: "This minion may not bear possessions." Like the [Moria] tentacles :P. It doesn't change anything, but allows for more freedom to develop [moria] possessions, like Decipher's Goblin Spear. And would make this Dark Bats cannot be target of transferable fortifications ;).
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Thank you very much, I changed His Wrath Was Redoubled.
Dark Bats: It doesn't seem necessary, moreover Stone Giants will need this sentence too. The [Moria] possessions will be specific to Orcs or Trolls, it seems simpler.
Everything seems alright now :).
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Ok to make [moria] possessions specific to Trolls and/or Orcs only. HWWR looks very professional!
Magnificent! There's not a single loose end now :). I don't know if you already changed the year (and the symbol on the 4 different Bilbos) to upload them later, and if you are going to change Fimbul's lore text, and the "collector's info" in the bottom right rectangle. Or if those unsubstantial details will be omitted. But besides that, everything seems fine. :up:
It's been truly a pleasure to help you in the process. ;D
So I'll start my job as HDG lobbyist! 8-) This marvelous work of yours cannot be left outside Gemp.
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Thank you a lot for your help. Without you, I would never have done so well :up:.
Yes, I change the bottom right and some images, tell me if everything seems perfect now (I didn't change Bilbo bottom right for (A), I prefer to keep it like this). We can recognize the different cards from each deck and packs, but you have to download the cards avalaible here to see it:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Download.html
If you know someone who can use java, feel free. I don't think dmaz will do it :(.
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I wanted to print the cards, and at the last moment I realise that a good modification on some Gandalf could be great. [Gandalf] events are useless cards for most of the Gandalf at site 5 and sometimes after if Gandalf doesn't appear again soon.
The Grey and Leader of the Company are 2 great and balanced wizards: the first one brings several damages but is discarded at site 5 (except with White Council, Wizard or Mirkwood packs) and the other brings stability. Tell me what you think about these 2 new Gandalf:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Updates/Gandalf.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Updates/Gandalf2.png
I want to promote To Me ! O My Kinsfolk ! (use of [Dwarven] followers from discard pile) and Take up arms. Fight! (need stability of Gandalf to be used).
I will modify Jail then, do you have a proposition for a lore text for Jail?
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Thank you a lot for your help. Without you, I would never have done so well :up:.
:up: :) :up:
Yes, I change the bottom right and some images, tell me if everything seems perfect now (I didn't change Bilbo bottom right for (A), I prefer to keep it like this).
An Invisible Ring still says 2015. Everything else is alright. But I really believe you should change the symbol of the 4 Bilbos, and now 2 Gandalfs too, for (A). Because it denotes that a change was done to the functionality of the card, and an "(A)" version of a given card comes to replace the text/attributes of a "(1)" version of the same. That's important for those who printed the early versions. Just like 1R55 The Mirror of Galadriel, those players that held the 1st version could still play it, but with the text of the last corrected one.
Considering that, you can create a new "Erratum cards" or "Corrected cards" tab, showing what cards have changed in the course of the released Sets. It'd have now 6 cards: 4 Bilbos & 2 Gandalfs.
We can recognize the different cards from each deck and packs...
Alright.
If you know someone who can use java, feel free. I don't think dmaz will do it :(.
Dmaz doesn't log in since 2 months (May 23) :(. An email is the only way then...
I don't know anyone who can use jscript. And don't discard the idea of learning it myself, for this waiting may last too many months...
...
Tell me what you think about these 2 new Gandalf:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Updates/Gandalf.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/New_Updates/Gandalf2.png
You exchanged the subtitles, was it intentional? The new skills seem better. "Gandalf.png" (the new "Leader of Dwarves") can exert 4 times before site 5 (to play Dwarf companions), and then reappear fresh (but unarmed). "Gandalf2.png" (the new "Friend of Thorin") can be played now with Thorin + Dwalin/Balin/Nori, which adds new possibilities, and uses followers to remain through site 5. I like those changes!
I want to promote To Me ! O My Kinsfolk ! (use of [Dwarven] followers from discard pile) and Take up arms. Fight! (need stability of Gandalf to be used).
There's a simple way to improve To Me! O My Kinsfolk!: make it a "Fellowship or Regroup" event. All follower-discarding is post-fellowship phase (except Thorin's skill), so being able to play this event at regroup helps to counter Yazneg or Smaug (as well as the cost of FP cards), while unclogging your hand and allowing that replayed follower to take part in a double move. That way, the event gets much more appeal and usefulness (without changing a single word in the text box!).
The new FP mechanics will get benefited a lot from this change.
I will modify Jail then, do you have a proposition for a lore text for Jail?
Gandalf speaks in Bag End about his meeting with Thráin in Dol Guldur (The Hobbit, Chapter 1):
- "...a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer."
- "...a nasty dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped."
Besides, he mentions in Rivendell this about his imprisonment in Orthanc (the Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 2):
- "I stood alone on an island in the clouds; and I had no chance of escape, and my days were bitter."
- "I was pierced with cold, and I had but little room in which to pace to and fro..."
- "I was in an evil plight. And those who know me will agree that I have seldom been in such need..."
- "...I have seldom been in such need, and do not bear such misfortune well."
- "Gandalf the Grey caught like a fly in a spider's treacherous web!"
All should fit into 2 lines (Gandalf won't have skirmish abilities ;), so those 2 lines are free now). For the purpose and context of Jail, I like a lot those in bold, but it's only a personal preference.
I use this page to get the quotes, it has Tolkien's books (and other authors) in htm format so it's easy to search and process text (some are in english, don't ask me about the others ;)):
http://ae-lib.org.ua/_lit_XX_post.htm#tolkien
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The link on the html file was still on Pity and I change the name of the card. Btw, I remove the Main_deck2 and Boosters2 pages.
The 4 Bilbos and the 2 Gandalf have an alternate (A).
You exchanged the subtitles, was it intentional? The new skills seem better. "Gandalf.png" (the new "Leader of Dwarves") can exert 4 times before site 5 (to play Dwarf companions), and then reappear fresh (but unarmed). "Gandalf2.png" (the new "Friend of Thorin") can be played now with Thorin + Dwalin/Balin/Nori, which adds new possibilities, and uses followers to remain through site 5. I like those changes!
Yes, it is intentional. Since the old Leader of Dwarves allows to only play Thorin with Gloin/Fili/Kili, I thought it would be better with any Dwarf. So the best way seems to be the current Gandalf. Since he reduces the cost of Thorin, Friend of Thorin is more a name for him than the other Gandalf.
There's a simple way to improve To Me! O My Kinsfolk!: make it a "Fellowship or Regroup" event. All follower-discarding is post-fellowship phase (except Thorin's skill), so being able to play this event at regroup helps to counter Yazneg or Smaug (as well as the cost of FP cards), while unclogging your hand and allowing that replayed follower to take part in a double move. That way, the event gets much more appeal and usefulness (without changing a single word in the text box!).
To Me! O My Kinsfolk! is in all 8 decks and in all FP packs. I don't want to change that many cards. Gandalf or Bilbo are ok because I don't have a lot of copies of them. I prefer to keep the current To Me! O My Kinsfolk!. Moreover, the combo To Me! O My Kinsfolk!+Roac+Crown of Erebor is really good. We will make similar ideas for the Balin and Blue Mountains packs.
I changed Jail.
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An Invisible Ring and the changed Gandalfs and Bilbos seems fine. :up:
The subtitle change seems good too. And Jail looks much better with a lore text. :up:
To Me! O My Kinsfolk! is in all 8 decks and in all FP packs. I don't want to change that many cards.
Changing To Me! O My Kinsfolk! for 8 players = changing 16 cards (8 in main decks, 8 in boosters). It's much more than the 12 cards you already changed (8x Bilbo + 4x Gandalf). The shortest modification (besides 0) is to change a non-event FP main deck card, that'd use only 1 card per player.
This should be the best way to allow To Me! O My Kinsfolk! to be played on regroup. By adding this passive text to Balin: "[Dwarven] fellowship events may be played during the regroup phase", 2 lines. That's only 8 cards per 8 players, half than changing the specific [Dwarven] event.
There are only 2 [Dwarven] fellowship events: To Me! O My Kinsfolk! (main deck), and King Under the Mountain (Dain pack). Playing those at regroup isn't remotely OP, but will give much more use to both [Dwarven] events and [Dwarven] followers, and that means also giving more use to Balin's recycling skill (which is a thing you wanted). And a slightly better cycling.
Besides, Balin would have a skill that shows true leadership (which is a thing he lacks by now), a wise conciliator's leadership as he shows in the films. Players'd have more interest in playing Balin soon (and keeping him alive), as he'd be the only way to recover [Dwarven] followers in the same turn as they were discarded by you or the Shadow player. That also makes the new FP mechanic of discarding [Dwarven] followers less costly.
I'll be anwering your PM soon (there's a lot of implicancies to consider).
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Changing To Me! O My Kinsfolk! for 8 players = changing 16 cards (8 in main decks, 8 in boosters). It's much more than the 12 cards you already changed (8x Bilbo + 4x Gandalf). The shortest modification (besides 0) is to change a non-event FP main deck card, that'd use only 1 card per player.
This should be the best way to allow To Me! O My Kinsfolk! to be played on regroup. By adding this passive text to Balin: "[Dwarven] fellowship events may be played during the regroup phase", 2 lines. That's only 8 cards per 8 players, half than changing the specific [Dwarven] event.
There are only 2 [Dwarven] fellowship events: To Me! O My Kinsfolk! (main deck), and King Under the Mountain (Dain pack). Playing those at regroup isn't remotely OP, but will give much more use to both [Dwarven] events and [Dwarven] followers, and that means also giving more use to Balin's recycling skill (which is a thing you wanted). And a slightly better cycling.
The changes on the different Gandalf were done in order to counter the site 5 and have more stable fellowships. I took this opportunity to use [Dwarven] followers (and so To Me! O My Kinsfolk!). To Me! O My Kinsfolk! has a wonderful sinergy in the Dain Pack with Roac and Crown of Erebor, I want to make it similar in the Balin and Blue Mountains Packs.
Unless there is a big problem on a card, changing 16 times the same card seems not necessary for me. I changed the Bilbos after the first part of the game was finished (due to the power of Gollum), I just did it in a similar way for the Gandalf.
Besides, Balin would have a skill that shows true leadership (which is a thing he lacks by now), a wise conciliator's leadership as he shows in the films. Players'd have more interest in playing Balin soon (and keeping him alive), as he'd be the only way to recover [Dwarven] followers in the same turn as they were discarded by you or the Shadow player. That also makes the new FP mechanic of discarding [Dwarven] followers less costly.
Balin will be improved in the Balin Pack and he is very powerful in the Wizard and White Council Packs with the Staff and Nenya.
I'll be anwering your PM soon (there's a lot of implicancies to consider).
Thanks a lot, I think this last update (I hope!) seems necesdary due to the duration of the game with the Swarm and Beatdown Packs 2.
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I will print the cards at the beginning of the next week, so don't wait too much to give me your opinion on the cards.
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He Is Summoning His Servants: The "Wise allies" part has a problem, the condition is in the support area of the Shadow player, the FP player will rarely remind he can use the Wise allies. I will delete this part (there is a lot of
misunderstandings and oversights with this key card) for a simple one like: "This condition is twilight cost +2 for each Wise character you can spot." and it will cost (0) now.
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I'm sorry for this long absence :(. I just answered your PM in detail. Hope it's not too late...
- He Is Summoning His Servants: I don't like the idea of not including Wise allies in the fight. Sauron & the Nazgûl never met the Company in the book and films, and that was Gandalf's plan precisely:
"Time was getting short. I had to be with the White Council in August at the latest, or Saruman would have his way and nothing would be done... that might prove fatal to the quest: the power in !Dol Guldur would not leave any attempt on Erebor !unhindered, unless he had something else to deal with."
As you say, it's problematic that the skill is in the Shadow player's support area. But that's worsened by being "a passive skill of one player that provides an active skill to the other". Too complex to remember well. So perhaps it'll be better as a direct passive skill and nothing more: the old "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions".
In absence of a cost to assign Wise allies, there should be a punishment, like "Each time a Wise ally loses a skirmish, you may exert a companion". That new version I propose would look like this (changes are underlined):
[2] He Is Summoning His Servants [Wraith]
Condition • Support Area
Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions.
Each time a Wise ally loses a skirmish, you may exert a companion.
Shadow: Discard an Orc from hand to play a [Wraith] minion from your discard pile.
"...Who, above all else, desire power."
The effect of multiple copies stacks. The cost of [2] balances that.
I insist: the !Wise must be present in the struggle against the Nazgûl.
- Balin: To change Balin means changing 8 cards (per 8 players), NOT 16. It's true that Balin is important for the Wizard and White Council packs, but those aren't [Dwarven] packs. He should be even more important for his own people. With that new skill, Balin would have important synergies with the Thorin, Thráin and Dain packs:
- In Thorin's, Dwarven Song discards a [Dwarven] follower at regroup, which would be recovered by "Balin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!" in that same phase. Lower cost.
- In Thráin's, Du Bekâr often discards [Dwarven] followers. So "Balin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!" can make Du Bekâr much easier to play.
- In Dáin's, Ironfoot can discard a [Dwarven] follower to remove a minion, and again "Balin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!" (or in this case, "Balin + King Under the Mountain" too) can recover that (or another) [Dwarven] follower.
Regardless of FP packs, that new skill makes double moves more attractive and promotes cycling. Besides, in respect of lore, I believe such a change is important for Balin as he was a close friend of those 3. He was companion of Thráin (1st Quest of Erebor) and Thorin (the 2nd), and a close counsellor of them both and Dáin. Balin should interact strongly with them.
Such skill helps Ori too. Ori draws cards, and this change allows more cards to be played post-fellowship phase.
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- He Is Summoning His Servants: I don't like the idea of not including Wise allies in the fight. Sauron & the Nazgûl never met the Company in the book and films, and that was Gandalf's plan precisely:
"Time was getting short. I had to be with the White Council in August at the latest, or Saruman would have his way and nothing would be done... that might prove fatal to the quest: the power in !Dol Guldur would not leave any attempt on Erebor !unhindered, unless he had something else to deal with."
As you say, it's problematic that the skill is in the Shadow player's support area. But that's worsened by being "a passive skill of one player that provides an active skill to the other". Too complex to remember well. So perhaps it'll be better as a direct passive skill and nothing more: the old "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions".
In absence of a cost to assign Wise allies, there should be a punishment, like "Each time a Wise ally loses a skirmish, you may exert a companion". That new version I propose would look like this (changes are underlined):
[2] He Is Summoning His Servants [Wraith]
Condition • Support Area
Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish [Wraith] or [Sauron] minions.
Each time a Wise ally loses a skirmish, you may exert a companion.
Shadow: Discard an Orc from hand to play a [Wraith] minion from your discard pile.
"...Who, above all else, desire power."
The effect of multiple copies stacks. The cost of [2] balances that.
I insist: the !Wise must be present in the struggle against the Nazgûl.
I'm sorry but this text is too long (4 lines) and the card starts with a FP player ability, this could be confusing.
I know this could be very cool to see Wise allies skirmishing Nazguls, but FP player abilities (even passive) seem too complicated for players learning a new game with many new cards. I prefer a simple ability (like the one I proposed) with a negative effect depending on Wise allies. Tell me if you have other ideas.
- Balin: To change Balin means changing 8 cards (per 8 players), NOT 16. It's true that Balin is important for the Wizard and White Council packs, but those aren't [Dwarven] packs. He should be even more important for his own people. With that new skill, Balin would have important synergies with the Thorin, Thráin and Dain packs:
- In Thorin's, Dwarven Song discards a [Dwarven] follower at regroup, which would be recovered by "Balin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!" in that same phase. Lower cost.
- In Thráin's, Du Bekâr often discards [Dwarven] followers. So "Balin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!" can make Du Bekâr much easier to play.
- In Dáin's, Ironfoot can discard a [Dwarven] follower to remove a minion, and again "Balin + To Me! O My Kinsfolk!" (or in this case, "Balin + King Under the Mountain" too) can recover that (or another) [Dwarven] follower.
Regardless of FP packs, that new skill makes double moves more attractive and promotes cycling. Besides, in respect of lore, I believe such a change is important for Balin as he was a close friend of those 3. He was companion of Thráin (1st Quest of Erebor) and Thorin (the 2nd), and a close counsellor of them both and Dáin. Balin should interact strongly with them.
Such skill helps Ori too. Ori draws cards, and this change allows more cards to be played post-fellowship phase.
The current Balin is really good. I always start with him with the new Friend of Thorin. I see him as a learned Dwarf, able to react wisely against a new threat.
I will probably print the cards tomorrow.
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- Wise allies facing Nazguls: You said the problem relies on having the FP skill in the Shadow player's support area. Alright. What if that "pro Wise-ally" passive skill was in the Dol Guldur Blade? It'd be in the middle of the board, so can be easily read by anyone (like players do with most weapons). "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmishes." (1 line.) It'd even have a strong flavor, as the Morgul Blade found by Radagast in the film is the main reason for Elrond, Gandalf and Radagast to worry about the Necromancer.
A card borne by a character in the middle of the board, just like the Shadow Arkenstone (or Decipher's Ancient Blade, Reckless Pride...). Perhaps allowing every Wise ally to fight is too much. So instead might allow them to be assigned only to the Nazgul holding the Blade: "Wise allies may be assigned to skirmish bearer" (2 lines). Or a bit shorter: "Wise allies may be assigned to bearer" (1 line).
But I still think that !The Wise should be fighting Sauron and the Nazgul.
- Balin: Hmm, alright. Let it the way it is. I give up! The enhancements on Balin will be then in Balin's pack.
But I wonder what path will take that pack, because Balin has a past story with Thorin and Dwalin in Azanulbizar, but also a future story crossing Azanulbizar with Ori and Óin in the reconquest of Moria. A single pack might be too little for those 2 big stories...
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I change the site Dol Guldur from the White Council Pack to make Wise allies participate in skirmishes.
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I order all the cards fro the Clouds Burst today. Thank you a lot!
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You're welcome my fellow! I'm glad this day came! ;)
I think you should mention the changes on the 2 Gandalfs and 4 Bilbos. Besides that, the Updates.html page seems enough.
Cheers! :up:
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You're welcome my fellow! I'm glad this day came! ;)
Yes, it took more than 18 months of test. I'm a perfectionist ;).
I think you should mention the changes on the 2 Gandalfs and 4 Bilbos. Besides that, the Updates.html page seems enough.
Ok, I did it.
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So now that all is done with the new cultures, you'll for sure display the finished version of "The Clouds Burst" in a Tournament :P. Whenever it happens, have a good time! :up:
I wonder when we'll begin the development of the 2nd Extension Set... :)
I also wonder if we could make a Swarm pack 3 (besides the Beatdown pack 3). There's plenty of material to develop new cultures and subcultures... Goblin-town Archery, Gundabad Warg minions, Dol Guldur [Sauron] Orcs (Orc Soldier style), Spiders transferring Web conditions (like Black Breath / Blade Tip, or like Uruk Searcher and [Isengard] tracker conditions)...
Given the themes and subcultures of those 4 FP packs and the Beatdown pack 3, I believe the name "The Road Goes Ever On" will fit well for that Extension. There'll be good and evil Elves in the road, a Lake-town and their abusive police force, Dwarves travelling for revenge, Giants emerging from the mountains... everything SCREAMS the word "road" to me!!
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So now that all is done with the new cultures, you'll for sure display the finished version of "The Clouds Burst" in a Tournament :P. Whenever it happens, have a good time! :up:
I wonder when we'll begin the development of the 2nd Extension Set... :)
Thank you a lot ;).
I will not start the 2nd Extension Set before the Hobbit Draft Game will be on gemp. I need playtesters now, I spent a lot of time during my holidays playtesting the game, I don't want to spend so much time for the next cards. We really need it on gemp, we have to find a LOTR player who knows java and wants to put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp.
I also wonder if we could make a Swarm pack 3 (besides the Beatdown pack 3). There's plenty of material to develop new cultures and subcultures... Goblin-town Archery, Gundabad Warg minions, Dol Guldur [Sauron] Orcs (Orc Soldier style), Spiders transferring Web conditions (like Black Breath / Blade Tip, or like Uruk Searcher and [Isengard] tracker conditions)...
Given the themes and subcultures of those 4 FP packs and the Beatdown pack 3, I believe the name "The Road Goes Ever On" will fit well for that Extension. There'll be good and evil Elves in the road, a Lake-town and their abusive police force, Dwarves travelling for revenge, Giants emerging from the mountains... everything SCREAMS the word "road" to me!!
Sure, we can make a Swarm Pack 3 (Goblin-town Archery and another Shadow seem great).
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Thank you a lot ;).
It's been truly an honour. ;)
Sure, we can make a Swarm Pack 3 (Goblin-town Archery and another Shadow seem great).
Magnificent! That's something I wanted to hear so bad! :up: :mrgreen:
I will not start the 2nd Extension Set before the Hobbit Draft Game will be on gemp. I need playtesters now, I spent a lot of time during my holidays playtesting the game, I don't want to spend so much time for the next cards. We really need it on gemp...
Hmmm, ok. But we might at least draw some lines on what we want, and make some prototypes of the mechanics and cards. There's no urgent need to get the definite versions soon. We can create some prototypes, and if the incorporation on Gemp still doesn't happen (and thus the playtesting is frozen), we can use rough Truth Tables to foresee what fixes can be done on the potential imbalances that a playtest might find.
Something like "this minion might prove to be too powerful in a playtest. If a playtest is done and that happens to be true, we can: A) reduce its power this way, B) increase its cost that way, C) restrict its range of action that other way... That would save us some valuable time. And time is fuel for creativity. :uh-huh:
But take your time, my friend. "'The time of my thought is my own to spend,' answered Dáin."
We have to find a LOTR player who knows java and wants to put the Hobbit Draft Game on gemp.
I PM'd Merrick and dmaz. Merrick says he lacks the knowledge (but wishes us luck in our venture, which is something I really appreciate). And dmaz hasn't answered yet...
I think we should move that problem outside this thread, into a specific thread to invite knowledgable people to participate. It must say it explicitly in the title... "Java Programmers needed for the Hobbit Draft Game", or so. The whole attention of the thread must be on the coding issue. And must be on Bag End (or anywhere else than Undying Lands), so that both members and guests can see it on this forum.
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The next 4 supplementary packs will be done to balance (or make more useful) some cards. So, we need playtest first.
Good idea, I will create a thread soon. We also need to advertise it on gemp.
Nice to hear from Merrick :). dmaz will never answer again: for 2 years, I sent him PM and e-mails (4-5 in total), but I got no answer....
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Good idea, I will create a thread soon. We also need to advertise it on gemp.
Great! I'll be mentioning it on the Game Hall every now and then, with a link to the forum post...
Nice to hear from Merrick :). dmaz will never answer again: for 2 years, I sent him PM and e-mails (4-5 in total), but I got no answer....
That's a bit sad about dmaz. Still hope he answers my PM. We worked together in the Towers Standard sealed league, and had good fun meanwhile, perhaps he recalls that glorious past and answers affirmatively... I prefer to not discard it. But can't rely on his answer only, can't just "put all eggs on the same basket"...
The next 4 supplementary packs will be done to balance (or make more useful) some cards. So, we need playtest first.
That's ok. But those are the FP packs only. We might work on the Shadow packs then. Not the definite versions, only the mechanics and the card prototypes. And then the card distribution: which Beatdown culture will get 10 cards, how many different cards per culture...
I have some ideas about the Goblin-town Archers mechanics. Do you remember the wound-evasion discussion when we were developing Bolg's Army? The problem with the FP wound remotion/prevention is still present, but I got some simple ways to allow Kili to block arrows (like a Jedi). Tell me if you are interested.
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We can propose some cards, but keep in mind that the mechanics must use Shadows cards from the main deck and have simple mechanics.
I'm not sure about the wound-evasion discussion: it's replacing dead Dwarves by new healthy Dwarves ? If it's the case, Not At Home is really good for that.
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We can propose some cards, but keep in mind that the mechanics must use Shadows cards from the main deck and have simple mechanics.
Alright. I'll keep that in mind. :up:
I'm not sure about the wound-evasion discussion: it's replacing dead Dwarves by new healthy Dwarves ? If it's the case, Not At Home is really good for that.
No, the discussion was about how the FP side will have a chance to prevent some of those massive wounds. At first, Bolg's Army was going to wound during Archery, but that gave no real chance to counter the wounding potential (no shields, limited healing, only Bofur preventing). So we solved it by making them Regroup wounding orcs, which gives time to try to prevent those wounds during Skirmish.
With a specialized Archery Shadow, that old problem resurges. So I believe many of these Goblin-town archers must be poorly trained (not very accurate), giving the FP player an alternative cost to evade the arrow. But to compensate that, be stronger and have a smaller cost. That way they'll have less chances of unavoidable wounds at Archery, but more chances of avoidable wounds at Skirmish.
Something like this: "At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may... ADD COST HERE... to make the minion archery total -1." (that's 3 or 4 lines, depending on the cost)
That cost may be "add a doubt" or "add [2]", and that resource may be harvested by another Shadow card to give better skirmish chances to a !Goblin archer. Look at this:
[2] Goblin-town Bowman [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
At the start of the archery phase, the
Free Peoples player add a doubt to
make the minion archery total -1.
It's Goblin Marksman's strength, but with Goblin Bowman's cost! Its arrow can be prevented by a doubt; then another card would be using those doubts, like this:
[1] Goblin Bow [Moria]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc.
Bearer is an archer.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc archer strength +2 (limit +4).
So Goblin Footman can become an archer. And will support any !goblin archer's skirmish.
New versions can be done of Moria Archer Troop and Archer Commander. Tell me what you think.
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Ok. After searching Goblin-Town archers in the first movie, I only find one (maybe two) correct images for archer minions.
After the tests on gemp, maybe we will change "add a doubt" for "discard a [Dwarven] follower" (with a stronger effect for the Shadow Player), that way the FP player will use To Me! O My Kinsfolk! a lot.
I PM Phallen with all the instructions to put the Hobbit Game on gemp. There will be two formats (I tell him to put only the first one at the moment):
- set 21 "Hobbit: A Short Rest": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 1 + Beatdown Pack 1 + 4 supplementary packs (Bilbo Pack + Mirkwood Pack + Thorin Pack + Wizard Pack)
- set 22 "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 2 + Beatdown Pack 2 + 4 supplementary packs (Dain Pack + Esgaroth Pack + Thrain Pack + White Council Pack)
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Ok. After searching Goblin-Town archers in the first movie, I only find one (maybe two) correct images for archer minions.
Great! But look at Goblin Archer and Moria Archer Troop: the first one is part of the latter group ;). So we can wring a lot out of a single archer, using both separate and group images.
After the tests on gemp, maybe we will change "add a doubt" for "discard a [Dwarven] follower" (with a stronger effect for the Shadow Player), that way the FP player will use To Me! O My Kinsfolk! a lot.
Interesting idea! Or both. If the alternative effect is only doubts, the corruption potential will be too strong; I was thinking about "discard 2 cards from hand" for some archers, but ditching [Dwarven] followers is better ;D. But keep doubts as one of the alternative costs, as it has a strong potential for cost/effect mechanics...
There's enough room for a Torture Machine. The Great Goblin mentions the "mangler" and the "bonebreaker" (there are some pictures at 2:23:21-26, EE). The torture could work with doubts and wounds...
[2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Shadow: Remove 2 doubts to play a [Moria] card from your discard pile.
Regroup: Discard a [Moria] Orc to wound a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent that.
"If they will not talk, we'll make them squawk!"
An Orc prepares to torture a Dwarf ("wound him"), but the Dwarf can speak parts of his plans ("add a doubt"). So this grinds the Company (which stacks with arrows), generates doubts (stacks with an alternative cost), and harvests doubts to play cards from discard (good for a Swarm).
Might be a possession instead (harder to discard, and gives Nori more importance). There's 1 spare line to add something like "Machine" or "To play, spot 2 [Moria] cards." This is of course only a prototype.
I PM Phallen with all the instructions to put the Hobbit Game on gemp. There will be two formats (I tell him to put only the first one at the moment):
- set 21 "Hobbit: A Short Rest": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 1 + Beatdown Pack 1 + 4 supplementary packs (Bilbo Pack + Mirkwood Pack + Thorin Pack + Wizard Pack)
- set 22 "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst": main deck with each FP event in 3 copies + Swarm Pack 2 + Beatdown Pack 2 + 4 supplementary packs (Dain Pack + Esgaroth Pack + Thrain Pack + White Council Pack)
Agree, is better to implement in parts. And separate the Swarm/Beatdown packs 1 & 2.
But the Supplementary packs must be chosen according to lore, and I believe the Mirkwood pack (Elves) should be along with the Esgaroth pack (Men) and Dain pack (Dwarves), to get the whole Good forces of the Battle of the Five Armies together in The Clouds Burst. Besides, the [Sauron] Bolg is present in the Mirkwood pack, and it works better with Danger Wrapped in Shadows.
Thrain pack should be in "A Short Rest", I think. Neither Mirkwood nor Thrain pack provide weapons.
I like a lot that Goblin Song (Thorin pack) will be with The Great Goblin!!
EDIT: Searched for the moments when it's easy to see a Goblin archer (AUJ Extended Edition). There are at least 5 different archers:
- 2:27:22 Thorin kills a bowman (1)
- 2:27:46 Kili kills a bowman (2)
- 2:27:47 Two bowmen run towards Kili, and shoot (4)
- 2:27:49 Another Goblin bowman joins that group (5)
- 2:27:56 A bow can be clearly seen, when the Dwarves push the ladder
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With the Mirkwood Pack in "The Clouds Burst" there will be too much strong allies in "The Short Rest". Thrain with the Ring of Thror will be better against Sauron and his Ring.
There will not be the 5 armies at the same time on the board, but it will be better like it is for the balance of the game.
I only found 3 correct images with the moments you proposed (and 2 are similar but as you said with the Moria archers it will be ok).
Goblin Bonebreaker is good, we will see how this Shadow will have to work after some tests on gemp with the other Hobbit cards ;).
Thank you for your answer to dmaz.
PS: It was fast, I receive all the cards for 16 players today (including the new cards) ;).
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Ok then to let more allies in "A Short Rest". And since the FP armies are from sites 5, 6 and 9, makes sense to separate Mirkwood for the first part of the voyage. And Thráin's Ring vs Sauron's Ring will be a cool interaction! :up:
So besides Thranduil's elves, we'd have Radagast and no more allies (in Supplementary packs). But Radagast can't fight outside site 5 (and lacks any pump), which is a real shame. Perhaps will be good to make an "Additional Valid list" with some scarce cards to correct some game and lore imbalances (2 or cards 3 maybe). Former Herald would help him a lot, even if it was only 1x copy allowed (R-listed).
I only found 3 correct images with the moments you proposed (and 2 are similar but as you said with the Moria archers it will be ok).
That should be enough. There's need of 3 archers: 1x single archer, 1x group of archers and 1x unique commander. Perhaps one more. Plus the image of a Bow, that's all. Besides, there are some archer minions that aren't carrying bows at all (Orthanc Assassin, Desert Lord, Orc Archer Troop, Southron Murderer, some versions of Lurtz, and... Archer Commander itself!). So a picture with a Goblin standing tall, or in a higher ground, might be enough.
Goblin Bonebreaker is good, we will see how this Shadow will have to work after some tests on gemp with the other Hobbit cards ;).
I'm glad you liked that prototype. Yes, it'll need to test the previous cards.
There'll be also need of a unique archer, like Archer Commander or Ranged Commander. The main problem with Archer Commander in LOTR TG is being killed before his fellows can fight, so this version can have a lurker effect when at a specific terrain (underground I guess). That way Watchful Orc will be important in the culture:
[4] •Goblin Chieftain [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8 Vitality 2 Site 4
Archer.
Each other Orc archer is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.
While at an underground site, skirmishes involving this minion must be resolved after any others.
6 lines. A mixture of Archer Commander and Ranged Commander (cost reduction is key for swarm shadows, moreover in absence of Goblin Runner or Goblin Armory to add twilight). "Orc archers" includes Narzug too (like the Goblin Bow prototype), so interacts with 2 main deck cards.
The Archer Troop might look like this:
[4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8 Vitality 2 Site 4
Archer.
While you can spot another Orc archer, the minion archery total is +1.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may discard a [Dwarven] follower to make the minion archery total -1.
7 lines (the arrow evasion uses 4!). This one gives more incentive to dodge an arrow, because with 1 other archer they'll shoot together 3. So the cost to dodge is higher, the one you suggested. Its vitality is a bit lower than Moria Archer Troop's, that's to make Kili or Battle of Azanulbizar too mechanisms to evade the arrows (and the skirmish potential).
Thank you for your answer to dmaz.
:up: ;D
PS: It was fast, I receive all the cards for 16 players today (including the new cards) ;).
Great! The Smaug cards must look astonishing!
EDIT: Added the prototype for the Archer Troop.
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I just noticed something that worries me a bit... You said this:
The next 4 supplementary packs will be done to balance (or make more useful) some cards. So, we need playtest first.
And then this:
I PM Phallen with all the instructions to put the Hobbit Game on gemp. There will be two formats.
- set 1 "Hobbit: A Short Rest"
- set 2 "Hobbit: The Clouds Burst"
The problem is that the cards in those 2 formats can't be balanced/made more useful by any card that won't interact with them. So the 4 new Supplementary packs will either:
1) balance only Main Deck cards (the only cards shared by all formats), or
2) be included in one (or more) format(s) together with the cards specific of A Short Rest and The Clouds Burst.
Please tell me if I'm wrong... :-k
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Sorry for the delay :(.
The problem is that the cards in those 2 formats can't be balanced/made more useful by any card that won't interact with them. So the 4 new Supplementary packs will either:
1) balance only Main Deck cards (the only cards shared by all formats), or
2) be included in one (or more) format(s) together with the cards specific of A Short Rest and The Clouds Burst.
Please tell me if I'm wrong... :-k
After some tests on gemp, we will see which cards will be less used or too much used. In order to balance it again, I will propose to replace a Supplementary Pack by a new one.
For example, if we don't use so much To Me! O My Kinsfolk! in the "Hobbit: A Short Rest", we will remove the Mirkwood Pack (it's an example) from the Short Rest and put in the new Blue Mountains Pack which will use a lot of [Dwarven] followers. The Mirkwood Pack will be then in a 3rd format (with the Swarm Pack 3 and Beatdown Pack 3).
The next Packs will be done to balance the previous formats.
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It's really good but I will simplify the Goblin-Town Shadow.
Goblin-Town Shadow (Swarm Pack 3)
3x [4] •The Great Goblin, Goblin-King [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 10 Vitality 3 Site 4
Fierce.
Each Orc archer is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.
Only Thorin can kill it now in skirmishes. He cannot be killed directly by Battle of Azanulbizar.
3x [5] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8 Vitality 3 Site 4
Archer.
While you can spot another [Moria] Orc, the minion archery total is +2.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may discard a [Dwarven] follower to make the minion archery total -2.
The [Dwarven] followers are now necessary to survive. If the FP player discards his followers this way, the Dwarves will be weaker against Goblin Chieftain.
3x [3] Band of Goblin-town Bowmen [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 9 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1.
4x [2] Goblin-town Archer [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1.
I want to change the ability of these last two minions. Maybe for weaker minions without any text?
3x [2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Regroup: Discard a [Moria] Orc to wound a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent that.
"If they will not talk, we'll make them squawk!"
We will test only with the second ability at the moment.
4x [1] Goblin Bow [Moria]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc.
Bearer is an archer.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc archer strength +2 (limit +4).
Really Good!
Now, I think all the "at the start of the archery phase" FP abilities will lengthen the duration of the game.
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A lot to analyze and answer...
After some tests on gemp, we will see which cards will be less used or too much used. In order to balance it again, I will propose to replace a Supplementary Pack by a new one.
Hmmm, perhaps will be better to not replace any pack, and instead have 6 packs per format. The problem I see is that you'll make an experiment on Gemp to see how a complex card pool behaves. If you remove an important part of the complex, good part of the knowledge of the original meta will be useless. OR will at least require a very good logic effort to foresee the exact implicancies of the remotions (and that's even harder if the cards added aren't yet developed!)...
Goblin-Town Shadow
Alright, simpler is better. The total card count is 21, so 1 thing must be trimmed out.
The Goblin pack's name is too similar. I think will be better to give it a more disctintive name, like "Goblin Archery" or so.
I think all the "at the start of the archery phase" FP abilities will lengthen the duration of the game.
Hmm, that's highly probable. But will be more due to pondering the pros and cons of evading arrows, than due to spending too much time reading the texts (3 or 4 lines, but very easy to interpret). So players experienced with archery won't delay too much.
- The Great Goblin, Goblin-King: I really like this change! :up: With him on the board, Goblin Bow will give some base strength to Goblin Footman. And to himself; having a non-archer [Moria] Orc gives the Bows in hand more usefulness (as the Footman uses those in discard). Bravo! =D> =D> =D>
He has still 4 spare lines. Lore text will use some, but I feel the pack can need another (short, simple) skill to tie some loose ends (see below)...
- Goblin Bow: I'm glad you like it! :up: The vitality is there to protect Goblin Footman, but can shield other [Moria] Orcs too. More vitality also reduces the need of a lurker text on bearer (or on the Great Goblin / Goblin Chieftain). Which simplifies and hastens the game ;).
3x [2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
We will test only with the second ability at the moment.
- Goblin Bonebreaker: I believe the shadow phase skill is very important. It's meant to give an incentive to spend doubts (instead of piling them for corruption), and give the pack a strong tool to replay minions. The other Orc swarm packs have Goblin Swarms, Azog Commander, the Wolves Army and Hidden Attack. Hatred Rekindled / Host of Thousands will be there but can be not enough to pull a swarm, or to keep a strong and constant pressure on the Company. If this condition won't play that role, perhaps the Great Goblin should have that skill (which uses 2 lines merely).
A nice thing about this machine is that Orcrist and Glamdring will be natural counters: "Biter" will be killing Orcs, while "Beater" will remove the doubts this condition will be piling/using. That's besides the usual skirmish enhancement that generic weapons provide ;).
- !Goblin Archer Troop: I dislike this change, it'll be way too powerful. The problem is that after drawing one, the Shadow player will keep replaying 1 or 2 of these Goblins per site (Host of Thousands / Hatred Rekindled), but the FP player will be recovering the [Dwarven] followers at a much slower pace. Against that the FP will have only To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, and Balin to shuffle it into deck so you can try to randomly draw it soon; besides, Balin's exertions contribute to the grind. And remember that followers will be replenished only in Fellowship phase, that gives a strong stopping power (even if no minion survives!).
So I think it should cost [4] and add only 1 arrow when spotting another [Moria] Orc. The key is to note that the Company will deplete its resources much sooner than the Shadow side, so after that the Shadow archery will darken the light of day. And Yazneg will be discarding followers! At last, the less FP followers are, the harder will be for Dwarves to win skirmishes (more skirmish wounds).
I want to change the ability of these last two minions. Maybe for weaker minions without any text?
The problem is that the arrows must have an intrinsic way to be prevented. After shooting some companions to death (with non-avoidable arrows), the high strength of archers will be unnecessary as they'll swarm against exhausted companions (no need to overwhelm). That's the way Archery Shadows usually win games. So the arrow evasion skill must be present.
I don't like the name "Band of Goblin-town Bowmen". It's bloated with too many words. Perhaps "Goblin-town Band" will be better.
...
I've been thinking about another possible resouce that can be added, removing some copies of the Band of Bowmen (or even all copies, it's redundant with Goblin Bow and Goblin-town Archer)...
(0) Goblin Whip [Moria]
Possession • Support Area
Strength +2
Bearer must be a [Moria] Orc.
Shadow: Exert bearer to add [1] or draw a card (or both if at an underground site).
"They all laughed and stamped and clapped their hands, when the dwarves came running in, while the goblin-drivers whooped and cracked their whips behind."
A hand weapon that allows you to draw cards, or to add twilight a la Orc Taskmaster. There's no Goblin Armory / Scimitar here, so with this weapon the spare vitality of the Archer Troop and the Great Goblin can be used to get better resources for a swarm. And Goblin Footman will have more weapons to play (thus weapons in hand won't be useless). Finally, Watchful Orc gets a good reason to work with the Goblin-towners.
If you dislike adding this card on this pack but like the card anyway, it can be added to Balin's pack.
That's all.
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Hmmm, perhaps will be better to not replace any pack, and instead have 6 packs per format. The problem I see is that you'll make an experiment on Gemp to see how a complex card pool behaves. If you remove an important part of the complex, good part of the knowledge of the original meta will be useless. OR will at least require a very good logic effort to foresee the exact implicancies of the remotions (and that's even harder if the cards added aren't yet developed!)...
With too much different supplementary packs in one format, some counter-cards will become useless or some too powerful: Thror's Throne, The Great Enemy, Jail, Alfrid, Terrifying Legend.... If we know well what happens in one format, we could balance it well. We could make it in the same way for the Draft Game.
Alright, simpler is better. The total card count is 21, so 1 thing must be trimmed out.
Thanks, I made a mistake. I remove a Goblin Town Band.
Hmm, that's highly probable. But will be more due to pondering the pros and cons of evading arrows, than due to spending too much time reading the texts (3 or 4 lines, but very easy to interpret). So players experienced with archery won't delay too much.
The problem is that the arrows must have an intrinsic way to be prevented. After shooting some companions to death (with non-avoidable arrows), the high strength of archers will be unnecessary as they'll swarm against exhausted companions (no need to overwhelm). That's the way Archery Shadows usually win games. So the arrow evasion skill must be present.
I don't know if "classic" mass wounding Shadows in LOTR are so problematic. Mass wounding Shadows must be able to win, with too much avoiding abilities it will be very hard. There are many ways to heal in the Hobbit Game and arrows can be easily avoided with Battle of Azanulbizar.
Btw, Bofur does the exact same effect than the new small archers, and he is not very used.... I prefer a simpler text at the moment on the weak archers.
3x [3] Goblin Town Band [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 3 doubts to draw 2 cards.
4x [2] Goblin Town Archer [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 4 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 2 doubts to draw a card.
Goblin Bonebreaker: I believe the shadow phase skill is very important. It's meant to give an incentive to spend doubts (instead of piling them for corruption), and give the pack a strong tool to replay minions. The other Orc swarm packs have Goblin Swarms, Azog Commander, the Wolves Army and Hidden Attack. Hatred Rekindled / Host of Thousands will be there but can be not enough to pull a swarm, or to keep a strong and constant pressure on the Company. If this condition won't play that role, perhaps the Great Goblin should have that skill (which uses 2 lines merely).
A nice thing about this machine is that Orcrist and Glamdring will be natural counters: "Biter" will be killing Orcs, while "Beater" will remove the doubts this condition will be piling/using. That's besides the usual skirmish enhancement that generic weapons provide Wink.
The use of doubts will be very strong with the Sauron Shadow. I don't know yet about a way to replay [Moria] cards from discard pile.
!Goblin Archer Troop: I dislike this change, it'll be way too powerful. The problem is that after drawing one, the Shadow player will keep replaying 1 or 2 of these Goblins per site (Host of Thousands / Hatred Rekindled), but the FP player will be recovering the Dwarven followers at a much slower pace. Against that the FP will have only To Me! O My Kinsfolk!, and Balin to shuffle it into deck so you can try to randomly draw it soon; besides, Balin's exertions contribute to the grind. And remember that followers will be replenished only in Fellowship phase, that gives a strong stopping power (even if no minion survives!).
So I think it should cost 4 and add only 1 arrow when spotting another Moria Orc. The key is to note that the Company will deplete its resources much sooner than the Shadow side, so after that the Shadow archery will darken the light of day. And Yazneg will be discarding followers! At last, the less FP followers are, the harder will be for Dwarves to win skirmishes (more skirmish wounds).
Ok, but I want to add something specific for [Dwarven] followers (and simple). We can try this:
3x [4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8 Vitality 3 Site 4
Archer.
If you cannot spot an attached [Dwarven] follower, the minion archery total is +1.
(0) Goblin Whip Moria
Possession • Support Area
Strength +2
Bearer must be a Moria Orc.
Shadow: Exert bearer to add 1 or draw a card (or both if at an underground site).
The Goblin Archery will need a lot of "natural" [Moria] archers, I prefer to keep 10 Orc archers at the moment in the pack.
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Btw, there will be a Hobbit tournament in Paris saturday (we are 5 players).
There are 11 preregistred players for the Hobbit Draft Game Open in Paris the 19th november ^^. I have cards for 16 players.
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It's my time to be the delayed one... :(
With too much different supplementary packs in one format, some counter-cards will become useless or some too powerful: Thror's Throne, The Great Enemy, Jail, Alfrid, Terrifying Legend.... If we know well what happens in one format, we could balance it well. We could make it in the same way for the Draft Game.
Hmm, you're right about that. But replacing an entire old pack in order to balance an old format will require to calculate the impact this removed pack will have in the new Extension's format. That format will need its own proper balance. For instance, if Balin and Blue Mountains pack provide ways to replay followers, those packs will be needed to counter the Goblin-town pack (Archer Troop's follower discarding) and thus won't be easily removable... That's a lot of subtle interactions to balance, when developing the new packs. Replacing a pack will also confuse players (in both Gemp and Draft Game). So I dislike that idea.
An Additional Valid List will solve the problem. If a card in the new Extension reduces OP combos or increases the play of usually unused cards in another format, that card alone can be added to that format (instead of the whole pack that contains it). Must be a small list, that way is easier to remember by players and needs less playtesting. And changes less the flavor of the format.
Then each format would have 2 exclusive Shadow packs, 4 exclusive Supplementary packs, and a short, specific "Additional Valid" list. The specific balances between those Shadow and Supplementary packs wouldn't be disturbed by packs of other formats, with the exception of intentional selective additions to balance it even more.
I don't know if "classic" mass wounding Shadows in LOTR are so problematic. Mass wounding Shadows must be able to win, with too much avoiding abilities it will be very hard. There are many ways to heal in the Hobbit Game and arrows can be easily avoided with Battle of Azanulbizar.
This was discussed when developing Bolg's Army. It was changed from Archery (almost no way to counter) to Regroup wounding (Skirmishes are between). Even so, it needed to be downgraded many times (and Not At Home didn't exist yet!). All that means the FP counters to mass wounding aren't that strong: Elrond, Óin, Bofur, and Lore of Imladris. Only 4 (or up to 6) cards in a whole sea. And AWINL and Bilbo's Kitchen can grab some of them sooner.
Battle of Azanulbizar can kill up to 2 Orc archers = -2 wounds. For the cost of 1 wound. So it's not reliable.
Mass wounding Shadows in LOTR TCG can be countered by mass healing, frequent prevention (like Isildur's Bane), shields and at some extent by choke. But here there isn't even multiple copies of companions to heal them. So in the Hobbit Game those Shadows are problematic. Bolg and Hidden Attack had many previous versions that were far too powerful.
But note that the intrinsic arrow-evasion has a good side: the cost benefits the Shadow's mechanics too. If many doubts prevent your arrows, the Bow can make those Goblins win their skirmishes with ease, which also means Goblin Bonebreaker will have them at regroup to spend. Or push harder to overwhelm companions (Archer Troop + 1 Bow + 2 doubts = str 12, overwhelms Fili or Kili). Or even try to corrupt.
The same happens with follower discarding: reduces the skirmish power that can prevent more wounds. Reduces the availability of follower abilities (heal, prevent wounds or overwhelming, discard conditions, draw cards, damage bonus). Gives twilight, as the followers will be replayed...
So I'd keep the intrinsic prevention on those smaller archers. Keep in mind that the Bow will use doubts, so the skills that provide doubts mustn't be removed. Besides those 2 smaller archers, there's only Goblin Bonebreaker to add doubts. But the Bonebreaker needs the Goblins alive after their skirmishes, so the Bow will need doubts before regroup to make the Bonebreaker efficient.
The use of doubts will be very strong with the Sauron Shadow. I don't know yet about a way to replay [Moria] cards from discard pile.
Still, you can use this skill 3 times or max 4 in the same Shadow phase, and you must have twilight to play those cards. Might be "remove 3 doubts" then to be used only in key moments, or "remove [2] and 2 doubts" for a frequent use but with smaller chances of flooding the board with minions (Sauron already needs [5] or [7]).
Ok, but I want to add something specific for [Dwarven] followers (and simple). We can try this:
3x [4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8 Vitality 3 Site 4
Archer.
If you cannot spot an attached [Dwarven] follower, the minion archery total is +1.
I like this skill. But doesn't discards the follower, so doesn't promote the use of To Me! O My Kinsfolk. I like the previous better. The only problem I got with that previous version is the addition of 2 new arrows, it should be 1 only.
(0) Goblin Whip [Moria]
The Goblin Archery will need a lot of "natural" [Moria] archers, I prefer to keep 10 Orc archers at the moment in the pack.
Agree. But also will need to draw cards. Perhaps the Great Goblin can have a skill to draw cards, like this: "Shadow: Play an Orc to draw a card." After all, he's the Goblin-king!
Btw, there will be a Hobbit tournament in Paris saturday (we are 5 players).
There are 11 preregistred players for the Hobbit Draft Game Open in Paris the 19th november ^^. I have cards for 16 players.
I wish I was there! Those who can, join before it's too late!
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After the Hobbit will be on gemp, we will discuss of all this. After all, maybe there will be no necessary changes.
Sorry but I don't like ths ability:
"At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1."
It will lengthen the duration of the game. If you give the FP player a choice on important abilities, it will always make the Shadow too weak and it will be harder to test it.
Once we will test these new cards a lot of cards will change, so we only need the "spirit" of the cards. The Swarm Pack 3 and Beadown Pack 3 look like that at the moment:
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Shadow Sauron Swarm
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3× [1] Orc Ambusher [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 5.
The site number of each Orc is -1.
When you play this minion, you may discard a Shadow condition to draw 2 cards.
4× [1] Orc Sentinel [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 5.
The site number of each Orc is -1.
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 Shadow conditions to draw 2 cards.
4× [3] Malevolent Orc [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 7. Vitality 2. Site 5.
When you play this minion, you may remove (1) to play an Orc or a [Wraith] minion from your discard pile.
3x [1] Hidden [Sauron]
Condition.
Bearer must be an Orc.
Skirmish: Exert bearer to wound a character he is skirmishing once (or twice if you spot 4 Shadow conditions). Discard this condition.
3x [3] •Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
Each [Sauron] minion is strength +1.
Shadow: Play up to 2 [Sauron] conditions from your discard pile. Discard this condition.
3x [2] Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a [Sauron] card.
At the start of the maneuver phase, you may exert a minion to play a Shadow condition from your discard pile.
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Shadow Goblin Archery
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3x [4] •The Great Goblin, Goblin-King [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 10 Vitality 3 Site 4
Fierce.
Each Orc archer is strength +1 and twilight cost -1.
3x [4] Goblin Archer Troop [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 8 Vitality 3 Site 4
Archer.
If you cannot spot an attached [Dwarven] follower, the minion archery total is +1.
3x [3] Goblin Town Band [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 3 doubts to draw 2 cards.
4x [2] Goblin Town Archer [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 4 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
When you play this minion, you may spot 2 doubts to draw a card.
3x [2] Goblin Bonebreaker [Moria]
Condition • Support Area
Regroup: Discard a [Moria] Orc to wound a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent that.
"If they will not talk, we'll make them squawk!"
4x [1] Goblin Bow [Moria]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Vitality +1
To play, spot a [Moria] card.
Bearer is an archer.
Skirmish: Remove a doubt to make an Orc archer strength +2 (limit +4).
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Shadow Mirkwood
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4x Ancient Grudge. Cost (0). [Mirkwood] Condition - Support area.
When you play this condition, add a [Mirkwood] token here for each other [Mirkwood] condition you spot.
Regroup: Discard this condition or remove 2 [Mirkwood] tokens from here to make the Free Peoples player discard a card borne by a [Dwarven] companion. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent this.
3x Elven Jails. Cost (3). [Mirkwood] Condition - Support area.
When this condition is discarded from play, return all cards stacked here to its owner's hand.
Skirmish: If Bilbo is not assigned to a skirmish, remove [3] to stack a [Dwarven] companion assigned to a skirmish here. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent this.
3x •The Elvenking, High and Mighty. Cost (1). [Mirkwood] Condition - Support area.
Each time the fellowship moves, add (1) for each other [Mirkwood] condition you can spot.
Maneuver: Play a Shadow condition (or 2 [Mirkwood] conditions) from your discard pile. Discard this condition.
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Shadow Stone Giants
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4x Granit Giant : Cost (12). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 12. Vitality 5. Site 4.
At a mountain site, this minion is twilight cost -8.
This minion may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Archery: Exert this minion to discard a card at random from your hand. If it is a Shadow card, each the fellowship and minion archery totals are +2 (limit +4).
4x Lavastone Giant : Cost (16). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 16. Vitality 6. Site 4.
At a mountain site, this minion is twilight cost -10.
This minion may not be assigned to a skirmish.
Archery: Exert this minion to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a Shadow card, each the fellowship and minion archery totals are +2 (limit +4).
4x Boulder Rock: Cost (0). [Moria] Possession. Vitality +2.
Bearer must be a Troll or a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to make the minion archery total +2.
3x Stone returns to Earth : Cost (0). [Moria] Event - Archery.
You may remove from the game 4 other Shadow cards in your discard pile to play this event from your discard pile.
Discard a minion to shuffle up to X [Moria] cards from your discard pile into your draw deck, where X is this minion's vitality.
----
Shadow Corrupted Men
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3x Gangsquad Member : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 7. Vitality 2. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Maneuver: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to return a weapon to its owner's hand.
3x Gangsquad Spies : Cost (3). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 8. Vitality 2. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Shadow: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow card from hand to play a [Men] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
3x •Net Mender : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 7. Vitality 3. Site 6.
When the Free Peoples player assigns this minion to a character, exert that character.
Skirmish: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to return an exhausted companion (except Bilbo) to its owner's hand.
3x •Alfrid's influence : Cost (1). [Men] Condition - Support area.
The Free Peoples player must exert a companion (except Gandalf) to assign a [Men] minion to a skirmish.
Shadow: Remove [2] to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a minion, you may play a [Men] minion from your discard pile.
3x •Braga : Cost (2). [Men] Minion. Man. Strength 7. Vitality 3. Site 6.
Fierce.
Skirmishes involving [Men] minions must be resolved before any other.
Skirmish: Place another minion from play beneath your draw deck to make a [Men] minion strength +3.
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After the Hobbit will be on gemp, we will discuss of all this. After all, maybe there will be no necessary changes.
That's possible. Ok to not discuss it now, but we must be prepared if it needs changes (that way we save time and troubles). Let's give it a low priority, so don't answer about that if you don't have anything more important or better to do ;).
Sorry but I don't like ths ability:
"At the start of the archery phase, the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to make the minion archery total -1."
It will lengthen the duration of the game. If you give the FP player a choice on important abilities, it will always make the Shadow too weak and it will be harder to test it.
Yes, it might lenghten the game. But no, it won't necessary make the Shadow too weak; look at Sauron's assignment skill, which gives options too. Both alternatives to the original effect are doubts, but Sauron (Danger Wrapped in Shadows) uses doubts with much less efficiency than Goblin Bow. So the alternative cost is really, well... costly.
Once we will test these new cards a lot of cards will change, so we only need the "spirit" of the cards.
Agree.
I'll be commenting in more detail on your new Shadow packs soon.
But "Thranduil the condition" has caught my attention... Is it meant to be ruled as a unique card with the FP Thranduil? Because Boromir, My Brother and Boromir (any version) share name, but can both be on the board at the same time. To avoid confusion, you can rename it "The High and Mighty Elvenking".
I thought the Mirkwood Shadow could have Thranduil as a minion (but with that different name), something like this:
[5] • The Elvenking, High and Mighty [Mirkwood]
Minion • Elf
Strength 11 Vitality 4 Site 5
Each time an Elf uses a special ability, you may exert an [Elven] or [Dwarven] character.
Shadow: Exert the Elvenking twice to play a Shadow condition (or 2 [Mirkwood] conditions) from your discard pile.
5 lines. It's just an idea, probably too far from your current mechanics. But I'd really love to see Thranduil and Thorin in a sword duel! This minion also punishes Elf allies when using their skills (Elrond, Legolas, Tauriel and... Thranduil itself!).
I really belive the Mirkwood culture should feed on the [Elven] culture (Ancestral Feuds already does that), or interrupt/punish their aid on the Company. Then, for instance, Ancient Grudge could "add a [Mirkwood] token here for each [Elven] ally or other [Mirkwood] condition you spot". Not both, as it can be too powerful. But in absence of Mirkwood conditions, or in abundance of Elven allies, having that option can be better.
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I prefer not having Thranduil as a minion if he is an ally on the board at the same time. The sentence "add a [Mirkwood] token here for each Elven ally or other [Mirkwood] condition you spot" seems a bit long, moreover the most frequent [Elven] ally will be Elrond, the others will be rare.
Ok, I will change the title.
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A lot of time... I think I won't be using again in a good time the word "soon". :( Almost 2 weeks... ](*,)
Had health problems and a more persistent mind fog. But I also wasted too much time in leagued Gemp games, and spent some time in lesser matters like the Wiki articles. I'm sorry for that... :-S
I prefer not having Thranduil as a minion if he is an ally on the board at the same time.
Gollum and Smeagol can be both present at the same time (but can have interactions). In some DCs, [Isengard] Saruman has a FP counterpart, [Gandalf] Curunir, and both can coexist. I don't see the problem of having a FP Thranduil and a Shadow Elvenking.
The sentence "add a [Mirkwood] token here for each [Elven] ally or other [Mirkwood] condition you spot" seems a bit long, moreover the most frequent [Elven] ally will be Elrond, the others will be rare.
That can be added or not. But the idea to add it was to increase the interaction with the [Elven] support, portraying the distrust and old grudge between them and Dwarves. Also, "Evil Elves" should have more and longer tentacles to interrupt the Dwarves if there's also "Good Elves" helping them, I think.
I'll be working per parts, this is the turn of Sauron shadow:
Shadow Sauron Swarm
I like the concept of the culture. I got only these 2 things to say:
1.- Requires more cultural (or even racial) specificity, it's too easy to splash them in other cultures. And some cards are too powerful.
2.- This is less important, but might (just might) be better to have this Shadow in a 4th Swarm pack and have instead Warg minions accompaning the Goblin-town pack. I firmly believe that people will want to have at some point the chance to play with Wargs as self-guided cruel beings (instead of mere mastered vehicles). I got a prototype of a Gundabad Warg minion subculture, which can replace this here. Or be left for a 4th Swarm/Beatdown pack, I have no problems with that. But if we ask in the forum or in Gemp if people wants or not to have Warg minions, the answer will be a big YES (perhaps in total unison).
That said, here's the detailed analysis:
- Orc Ambusher & Orc Sentinel: Seem fair. The antagonistic costs between both seems really cool. Drawing cards is always good to Swarm shadows. :up: A last thing: instead of "Orc" Ambusher/Sentinel, these minions might be renamed "Dol Guldur" Ambusher/Sentinel.
- Malevolent Orc: Seems fine. Is splashable on almost any other culture, but only packing many copies (and thus centering a part of the deck around them) you can reach the full effect. And the twilight cost makes expensive those otherwise easy swarms. :up:
- Rise of the Necromancer: Seems great! But I'd reword it a bit, to avoid confusion on players unexperienced with the LOTR TCG (or merely with Dead Marshes ;)): "Play up to 2 other [Sauron] conditions from your discard pile..." :up:
- Hidden: I like the idea, but seems REALLY unbalanced. First, the skill in parenthesis is too powerful by itself, and its trigger/cost is really low for 2 wounds (and these Orcs will be facing vitality 3 Dwarves!). Second, has no limit per bearer, so you can play 2 on Watchful Orc (to wound any companion in its path 4 times!). Third, has no cultural requirement at all (no "plays on a [Sauron] Orc" or "to play, spot a [Sauron] Orc"), so it's totally costless to splash it in ANY other deck based on (or with a heavy use of) Orcs. Fourth, grinds too easily (which is even worse when accompanied by an Archery shadow; Orcs also!). Fifth, it's too easy to replay with that twilight cost and the other conditions of this pack...
So I'd make another version, like this:
(2) Hidden [Sauron]
Condition
Strength +2
To play, spot a [Sauron] minion.
Plays on an Orc (or Sauron). Limit 1 per bearer.
Skirmish: If bearer is a [Sauron] Orc, exert it and discard this condition to wound a character it is skirmishing.
Has a limit per bearer, removes the parenthesis, costs [2] and requires to spot a [Sauron] minion to play it (much harder to splash in other decks). And you're now forced to play it on [Sauron] Orcs to get the direct-wounding skill, which here all have 2 vitality, that provides the FP player a way to control the skill by exhausting bearer (unlike FOTR and TTT formats, there's no 4x Elven Bow or Rider's Mount here to keep them easily exhausted). Can be borne by non- [Sauron] Orcs, and thus they must get a benefit too, so a strength +2 bonus is added. That's good for [Sauron] too, because all [Sauron] Orcs here are weak so such strength bonus will be welcome. And will make the FP player can counter only 1 part of the condition when exhausting them with Orcrist / Kili / Battle of Azanulbizar.
Can be also borne by Sauron himself (players will want to have a strength bonus on Sauron, str 13 will be too low in constructed). But given Sauron's natural cost, +2 twilight increases a lot the cost of a 2 (or 3) cards combo (Sauron is 5 or 7, this is 2 or 4, his Ring is 0 or 2 = total 7 to 13; little twilight left to also give him damage).
Having cultural requirements, this version will give an advantage to the [Sauron] versions of Azog and Bolg (over their Gundabad and Moria counterparts, which have access to culture-specific Wargs/Bows/pumps, wound prevention and lower site number).
- Dark Sorcery: I like the idea, but believe this should be more specific in culture or race. "Any minion" + "any Shadow culture" allows to exert Trolls or Nazguls to get their conditions, or even the Great Goblin's Power (this one is dangerous, because the Troll Knives / Dol Guldur Blades will be twilight machines!). I think getting back ANY condition is totally fine, but should exert Orcs only, to force other races to spend some deck room (and twilight) in Main deck Orcs.
Keep in mind that with 1 copy in play, you can play all others you have in discard pile in a row. The cost would be 2 exertions and [4]. That can make this condition machinery really hard to counter, so perhaps the cost of either the replay skill or the condition should be higher.
As said above, I'll be trying to have all other reviews posted in the coming days. I'll be posting the Warg minions prototype too, but now still has some loose ends to tie up...
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I hope everything will be fine soon for you and your health.
With Anscestral Feuds, there are some interactions with the Elven allies from the pack. I know it's not enough but it will be hard to put more cards now in this Mirkwood pack.
Ok why not for a Shadow Thranduil, as "Elvenking" ? Maybe the Mirkwood Shadow can be a corrupt Shadow at 15 cards and the Stone Giants at 10 cards?
At the moment, I don't think there will be a 4th Swarm Pack, the 2nd Swarm Pack took 2 years to be released :(.
3× [1] Orc Ambusher [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 5.
The site number of each Orc is -1.
When you play this minion, you may discard a Shadow condition to draw 2 cards.
4× [1] Orc Sentinel [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 5. Vitality 2. Site 5.
The site number of each Orc is -1.
When you play this minion, you may spot 4 Shadow conditions to draw 2 cards.
Not sure if I will get enough good quality images of Orcs from Dol Guldur. I will keep "Orc" at the moment.
4× [3] Malevolent Orc [Sauron]
Minion. Orc.
Strength 7. Vitality 2. Site 5.
When you play this minion, you may remove (1) to play an Orc or a [Wraith] minion from your discard pile.
Same card as Old Tomnoddy.
3x [1] Hidden [Sauron]
Condition.
To play, spot a [Sauron] minion.
Bearer must be an Orc. Limit 1 per bearer.
Skirmish: Exert bearer to wound a character he is skirmishing. Discard this condition.
I simplify it a lot (no Sauron at the moment, we will maybe change it after tests). I hope it's better now.
3x [3] •Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
Each [Sauron] minion is strength +1.
Shadow: Play up to 2 [Sauron] conditions from your discard pile. Discard this condition.
Since the condition is unique (as Dead Marshes) and the discard is after the effect, "other" is not necessary at all.
3x [2] •Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a [Sauron] card.
At the start of the maneuver phase, you may exert an Orc to play a Shadow condition from your discard pile.
It's unique now. It will prevent abuse. Now, only Orcs can use the effect.
Thanks to Phallen, the Hobbit will be on gemp soon (today or the next days).
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I hope everything will be fine soon for you and your health.
Thank you my friend for your concern and good wishes. The same I wish, but by now the only thing I can do is learn and grow, forced by the discomfort and difficulties of life. Doesn't seem so bad if we look it that way. Fortunately these things will pass, while the inner growth will remain. :)
Thanks to Phallen, the Hobbit will be on gemp soon (today or the next days).
I'm really glad to hear that! =D> =D> =D>
At the moment, I don't think there will be a 4th Swarm Pack, the 2nd Swarm Pack took 2 years to be released :(.
Some months ago you didn't even want a Swarm pack 3 (and that's exactly our current business). There are other priorities now, but after finishing all important tasks you'll probably want Warg minions too ;).
Besides, good part of those 2 years were due to real life playtesting; although that cannot be fully replaced, having the cards on Gemp will make it way shorter.
...
- Rise of the Necromancer: Oh yes, I said a totally foolish thing!
- Malevolent Orc: For the modest sum of 35 twilight, you can pull 4x of both in a row from discard (in a constructed format). Not OP at all! :up:
- Orc Ambusher & Orc Sentinel: In the 2nd film there's pictures of other Orcs when Azog attacks Gandalf. For instance, when Azog assaults Gandalf, there's a row of Orcs close behind him. Maybe those pics are enough.
(It's interesting that this scene is different in the Theatrical and the Extended Editions: in the first Gandalf lifts the concealment spell with a spherical light wave, which is crossed by Azog when he leaps to attack the wizard; in the latter Gandalf and Thráin are merely ambushed by Azog. Gandalf's Hat is also present in the first but not the latter.)
- Dark Sorcery: Ok for the race restriction. But maybe it's not good to make it unique. The culture relies on conditions, and Hidden must be replayed often in order to be truly useful. Perhaps the replay cost should be higher, like "exert an Orc and discard 2 cards from hand" or "exert an Orc and discard a Shadow card from hand"; that way the drawing effect of the Ambusher / Sentinel will be more important (and this condition will be harder to abuse with other cultures). If Dark Sorcery remains unique, along with Rise of the Necromancer will be playing 2x Hidden from discard in each site. That may be not enough (or too frail).
- Hidden: Seems much better. But should give strength +1 at least. These Orcs are too weak to face the great FP great warriors: Thorin, Gandalf, Balin, Dwalin, even Glóin (if backed by Fili). [Dwarven] Followers will be tough too: Ori, Óin and Bofur will simply rock. Add [Dwarven] weapons to the mix, and these small Orcs often will be mere mosquitos, being this condition's wounding skill their only !sting to cause some harm.
Due to that, [Sauron] Orcs'll need more strength. With a str addition, you can try to wound by strength and it that fails, use the skill (important for stopping power, can keep Orcs with more strength and vitality). If swarming a companion, their total base strength will be often enough to deal 1 wound, so you can deal another one with the condition.
[1] Hidden [Sauron]
Condition
Strength +1
To play, spot a [Sauron] minion.
Plays on an Orc. Limit 1 per bearer.
Skirmish: Exert bearer to wound a character he is skirmishing. Discard this condition.
"Plays on" is shorter than "Bearer must be" (then all should fit into 1 line only).
Might be strength +2 and cost [2] instead (possibly better, these Orcs cost very little). Or strength +2 and cost [1], if restricted to [Sauron] Orcs only (are much weaker than Gundabad or Moria Orcs). If Sauron is included as bearer, the direct wound skill can be too much in his hands, so the skill might be restricted to "if bearer is an Orc" only. Then it'd be a mere str +2 pump for Sauron, but that's a thing he lacks by now (and he surely was hiding!).
Another option is to make Rise of the Necromancer give strength +2 instead.
I'll (try to) be writing in the next days, about the evil Elvenking and the Stone Giants.
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Sure, with the Hobbit on gemp it could be simpler, or maybe not.... because each time the cards will be changed, the programmer needs to change the cards. There will be only few accurate updates.
- Malevolent Orc: The swarm pack 1 and swarm pack 3 cannot be in the same game, even on gemp, there will be a third constructed format.
- Orc Ambusher & Orc Sentinel: Yes, I saw it at 2:10:22. But I think the pictures of these Orcs will not be in a good quality, there are maybe too dark.
- Dark Sorcery: You are right about all the synergies and the balance of this card, it's probably better now:
3x [2] •Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a [Sauron] card.
Maneuver: Exert an Orc and discard 2 cards from hand to play a condition from your discard pile.
- Hidden: Decipher changes the way the conditions on bearer are phrased (before TTT: "Plays on", and after ROTK: "Bearer must be"). Since it's "Plays on" for the Arkenstone, I will change it that way:
3x [1] Hidden [Sauron]
Condition.
To play, spot a [Sauron] minion.
Plays an Orc. Limit 1 per bearer.
Skirmish: Exert bearer to wound a character he is skirmishing. Discard this condition.
The strength bonus will come after tests if needed.
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Sure, with the Hobbit on gemp it could be simpler, or maybe not.... because each time the cards will be changed, the programmer needs to change the cards. There will be only few accurate updates.
You may be right, but still won't take 2 years...
You started the Hobbit Draft Game thread (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9063.0.html) here on October 22, 2014 (I joined you on Novemeber 8). And the Clouds Burst was released in August 29, 2016. But during those 22 months, not only the extension cards were created, but also many cards of the Shadow packs, Main deck and sites were changed in the Basic Set (Balin was str 5, Bolg and Azog were str 10, spiders had web conditions, [Dwarven] followers had different aid costs, The Eagles Are Coming...). Finally, the basic set was released around March 19, 2015. Then the Extension set took 17 months actually.
Talking about Extension sets, there were some ideas that you considered interesting but were left behind while developing, which might be incorporated (or not) in this new Extension:
- Allies played to the Dead pile: Thrór, Girion, Old Took...
- Cards that mimick sites: Lobelia for site 1, some Shadow condition, an item for Thorin to work on other sites, perhaps a "Musical Elf" for site 3...
Tell me if you want to consider including them in the new Extension.
...
[Sauron] Sauron Swarm Shadow:
- Orc Ambusher and Orc Sentinel: Yes, those are very dark. There are other pictures you might consider: when the Company runs towards Beorn's House (and the wargriders chase them), later when Azog's wargriders wait outside and Bolg irrupts, or even when Azog calls Bolg to replace him in the hunt. Only the latter occurs at Dol Guldur.
- Dark Sorcery: The new version is more powerful replaying conditions, but is also much more fragile. The previous version acted before the FP player could use maneuver actions, but Ancestral Knowledge can hit this before it does anything. If it wasn't unique, that'd be less perilous. Anyway, if changed to non-unique, multiple copies won't stack because only has a special ability.
- Hidden: Ok for the strength bonus only after playtesting.
About the wording, I wonder if cards like Strange-looking Men can transfer a condition with the "Plays on" wording. That'd be perhaps the only gameplay difference between "Plays on" and "Bearer must be". But here has no importance at all.
...
Ok why not for a Shadow Thranduil, as "Elvenking" ? Maybe the Mirkwood Shadow can be a corrupt Shadow at 15 cards and the Stone Giants at 10 cards?
Interesting idea. The Giants have less time in film and book than Mirkwood Elves, so makes sense. I like the idea, but must be done the right way because the Giants have problems having 15 cards, which logically won't improve inertially if reduced to 10. So before a detailed analysis of the Mirkwood Elves, I'll be analyzing the Stone Giants shadow.
[Moria] Stone Giants Shadow:
The culture has 2 key problems (at least I found those): 1) indirect and complicated replay, and 2) a critical lack of card room. Either with 10 or 15 cards, those problems must be solved (much more importantly with only 10).
1.- Indirect and complicated replay: Being a Draft Game, minions have few copies and then require strong replaying methods. Other cultures play directly from deck or discard pile (Danger Wrapped in Shadows, Better Than Nothing, Troll Campfire...), but these Giants can't be played from discard; only can be played from deck by Fimbul, and then be reshuffled by Stone Returns to Earth (to be subsequently played by Fimbul, if not drawn). That messy combo relies on an event (a card that won't stay for later use). Better Than Nothing is too an event, but doesn't force you to play/discard Fimbul, or wait until you draw the minion again.
With 5 cards less, we need to cut some support resources. I like Stone Return to Earth's concept of shuffling minions back, but must be now as a built-in skill (in each Giant): "Regroup: Shuffle this minion from play into your draw deck." (2 lines) That provides the Shadow player a powerful choice: you can choose to keep a Giant on the board for stopping power, or shuffle it to play later. In the book/film the Company stops at the Front Porch due to the Giants, so that stopping power can have a strong flavor.
The skill can have requirements or costs added (if you don't like it being free), but must be short like "remove a doubt", "discard 2 cards from hand" or "Shuffle an unexhausted Giant" to keep it in 2 lines. By removing the event, there are 3 cards left in the pack: exactly the number that Sauron or Gollum have (the other 10 card packs). It's that important.
2.- Critical lack of card room: 2 sentences in the Giants use 2 lines each ("At a mountain site" and "This minion may not"). That leaves 3 lines only for the minion's main skill. But currently those are complex archery skills that use 4+ lines. 8 total lines! So we need to reduce the length of all those texts. Moreover if we are going to add a built-in mechanism to shuffle them back (2 lines more).
The first sentence can be reduced to 1 line: "Discard this minion if not at a mountain" (Balrog-wise), obviously with a lower fixed cost (then their dependance on Watchful Orc will be a bit higher). The same with the second sentence: "Cannot be assigned to skirmishes" (by removing the subject, leaving the predicate only; anyway the previous sentence refers to "this minion"). Still, the archery skills use 4 lines. So to include the Regroup skill (and free the slots used by events), we must free another line. But how?
The archery skills have complicated random discarding mechanisms. I like those mechanisms, but are too long for these Giants to hold. Perhaps may be moved to the Boulder Rock possession, and have these Giants with shorter archery skills (3-lines or less). Maybe they can work with "wound this and another minion" or "exert this minion and discard a Shadow condition".
Here are 2 prototypes. They use all 7 card lines (like most Decipher versions of Saruman). Both have very low cost, because will require Watchful Orc in most sites before 7. And often Fimbul too...
[4] Granit Giant [Moria]
Minion • Giant
Strength 12 Vitality 4 Site 4
Discard this minion if not at a mountain.
Cannot be assigned to skirmishes.
Archery: Wound this and another minion to make the minion archery total +1 (limit +3).
Regroup: Shuffle this minion from play into your draw deck.
Vitality 4, but limit +3 only. Needs other minions in play, like Orcs or other Giants. Since it wounds itself (and another guy), the need of making "the fellowship archery total + anything" is removed.
[5] Lavastone Giant [Moria]
Minion • Giant
Strength 16 Vitality 4 Site 4
Discard this minion if not at a mountain.
Cannot be assigned to skirmishes.
Archery: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow condition to make the minion archery total +2 (limit +4).
Regroup: Shuffle this minion from play into your draw deck.
Vitality 4. Can exert 3 times, but only 2 are useful; the remaining vitality can be used by Granit Giant. Adds 2 to the archery per use, since replaying conditions is much harder (and are easier to discard than minions).
Then the Boulder Rock can discard cards at random/bottom-of-deck, perhaps to heal bearer and/or replay conditions. Or to shuffle Moria or Gundabad cards from discard into the deck (those are the fuel of the Giants). Even can be 2x and 2x of different possessions (and each Giant 3x): Boulder Rock and Overhanging Rock. One healing bearer, the other shuffling back cards of those cultures; one discarding from hand, the other from deck....
Hope this helps. This used all my brain power, so didn't work yet in the Mirkwood Elves (lead by the proud and merciless Elvenking) pack. That will have to wait a bit more.
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You started the Hobbit Draft Game thread (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9063.0.html) here on October 22, 2014 (I joined you on Novemeber 8). And the Clouds Burst was released in August 29, 2016. But during those 22 months, not only the extension cards were created, but also many cards of the Shadow packs, Main deck and sites were changed in the Basic Set (Balin was str 5, Bolg and Azog were str 10, spiders had web conditions, [Dwarven] followers had different aid costs, The Eagles Are Coming...). Finally, the basic set was released around March 19, 2015. Then the Extension set took 17 months actually.
Yes, btw a lot of time ago ;). 39=31+8 pages of threads for nearly 2 members ^^, that's a lot of discussions ;).
Right, but printing the updated cards and cut them took me a lot of time (and money btw).
Talking about Extension sets, there were some ideas that you considered interesting but were left behind while developing, which might be incorporated (or not) in this new Extension:
- Allies played to the Dead pile: Thrór, Girion, Old Took...
- Cards that mimick sites: Lobelia for site 1, some Shadow condition, an item for Thorin to work on other sites, perhaps a "Musical Elf" for site 3...
Tell me if you want to consider including them in the new Extension.
Right, don't know yet about the Allies from the Dead Pile and the cards that mimick sites, it will depend on the needs of the whole game. Creating new mechanics is great, but I prefer to balance the game.
A "Musical Elf" could be in the Elrond Pack...
The next supplementary packs will be:
- The Travellers Pack
- Elrond Pack (for Vilya, Lindir, Rivendell Elves....)
- Balin Pack (he must be enhanced, as Ori)
- Blue Mountains Pack (the [Dwarven] followers need more cards to interact with them)
[Sauron] Sauron Swarm Shadow:
- Orc Ambusher and Orc Sentinel: Yes, those are very dark. There are other pictures you might consider: when the Company runs towards Beorn's House (and the wargriders chase them), later when Azog's wargriders wait outside and Bolg irrupts, or even when Azog calls Bolg to replace him in the hunt. Only the latter occurs at Dol Guldur.
- Dark Sorcery: The new version is more powerful replaying conditions, but is also much more fragile. The previous version acted before the FP player could use maneuver actions, but Ancestral Knowledge can hit this before it does anything. If it wasn't unique, that'd be less perilous. Anyway, if changed to non-unique, multiple copies won't stack because only has a special ability.
- Hidden: Ok for the strength bonus only after playtesting.
About the wording, I wonder if cards like Strange-looking Men can transfer a condition with the "Plays on" wording. That'd be perhaps the only gameplay difference between "Plays on" and "Bearer must be". But here has no importance at all.
Ok for a non-unique Dark Sorcery.
3x [2] Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Condition • Support Area
To play, spot a [Sauron] card.
Maneuver: Exert an Orc and discard 2 cards from hand to play a condition from your discard pile.
Interesting idea. The Giants have less time in film and book than Mirkwood Elves, so makes sense. I like the idea, but must be done the right way because the Giants have problems having 15 cards, which logically won't improve inertially if reduced to 10. So before a detailed analysis of the Mirkwood Elves, I'll be analyzing the Stone Giants shadow.
With less cards, I don't know if we will have enough cards to have an interesting Stone Giants shadow.
[Moria] Stone Giants Shadow:
The culture has 2 key problems (at least I found those): 1) indirect and complicated replay, and 2) a critical lack of card room. Either with 10 or 15 cards, those problems must be solved (much more importantly with only 10).
1.- Indirect and complicated replay: Being a Draft Game, minions have few copies and then require strong replaying methods. Other cultures play directly from deck or discard pile (Danger Wrapped in Shadows, Better Than Nothing, Troll Campfire...), but these Giants can't be played from discard; only can be played from deck by Fimbul, and then be reshuffled by Stone Returns to Earth (to be subsequently played by Fimbul, if not drawn). That messy combo relies on an event (a card that won't stay for later use). Better Than Nothing is too an event, but doesn't force you to play/discard Fimbul, or wait until you draw the minion again.
With 5 cards less, we need to cut some support resources. I like Stone Return to Earth's concept of shuffling minions back, but must be now as a built-in skill (in each Giant): "Regroup: Shuffle this minion from play into your draw deck." (2 lines) That provides the Shadow player a powerful choice: you can choose to keep a Giant on the board for stopping power, or shuffle it to play later. In the book/film the Company stops at the Front Porch due to the Giants, so that stopping power can have a strong flavor.
The skill can have requirements or costs added (if you don't like it being free), but must be short like "remove a doubt", "discard 2 cards from hand" or "Shuffle an unexhausted Giant" to keep it in 2 lines. By removing the event, there are 3 cards left in the pack: exactly the number that Sauron or Gollum have (the other 10 card packs). It's that important.
2.- Critical lack of card room: 2 sentences in the Giants use 2 lines each ("At a mountain site" and "This minion may not"). That leaves 3 lines only for the minion's main skill. But currently those are complex archery skills that use 4+ lines. 8 total lines! So we need to reduce the length of all those texts. Moreover if we are going to add a built-in mechanism to shuffle them back (2 lines more).
The first sentence can be reduced to 1 line: "Discard this minion if not at a mountain" (Balrog-wise), obviously with a lower fixed cost (then their dependance on Watchful Orc will be a bit higher). The same with the second sentence: "Cannot be assigned to skirmishes" (by removing the subject, leaving the predicate only; anyway the previous sentence refers to "this minion"). Still, the archery skills use 4 lines. So to include the Regroup skill (and free the slots used by events), we must free another line. But how?
The archery skills have complicated random discarding mechanisms. I like those mechanisms, but are too long for these Giants to hold. Perhaps may be moved to the Boulder Rock possession, and have these Giants with shorter archery skills (3-lines or less). Maybe they can work with "wound this and another minion" or "exert this minion and discard a Shadow condition".
Here are 2 prototypes. They use all 7 card lines (like most Decipher versions of Saruman). Both have very low cost, because will require Watchful Orc in most sites before 7. And often Fimbul too...
[4] Granit Giant [Moria]
Minion • Giant
Strength 12 Vitality 4 Site 4
Discard this minion if not at a mountain.
Cannot be assigned to skirmishes.
Archery: Wound this and another minion to make the minion archery total +1 (limit +3).
Regroup: Shuffle this minion from play into your draw deck.
Vitality 4, but limit +3 only. Needs other minions in play, like Orcs or other Giants. Since it wounds itself (and another guy), the need of making "the fellowship archery total + anything" is removed.
[5] Lavastone Giant [Moria]
Minion • Giant
Strength 16 Vitality 4 Site 4
Discard this minion if not at a mountain.
Cannot be assigned to skirmishes.
Archery: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow condition to make the minion archery total +2 (limit +4).
Regroup: Shuffle this minion from play into your draw deck.
Vitality 4. Can exert 3 times, but only 2 are useful; the remaining vitality can be used by Granit Giant. Adds 2 to the archery per use, since replaying conditions is much harder (and are easier to discard than minions).
Then the Boulder Rock can discard cards at random/bottom-of-deck, perhaps to heal bearer and/or replay conditions. Or to shuffle Moria or Gundabad cards from discard into the deck (those are the fuel of the Giants). Even can be 2x and 2x of different possessions (and each Giant 3x): Boulder Rock and Overhanging Rock. One healing bearer, the other shuffling back cards of those cultures; one discarding from hand, the other from deck....
Hope this helps. This used all my brain power, so didn't work yet in the Mirkwood Elves (lead by the proud and merciless Elvenking) pack. That will have to wait a bit more.
I think we must have only 3 different cards here (like Sauron and Gollum). We have to define the Stone Giants strategy first and its interactions with the main deck.
I made the first sentence of the minions simpler. Only 2 abilities, we have to be thrifty.
4x Granit Giant : Cost (5). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 12. Vitality 4. Site 4.
Shadow: At a mountain site, place an Orc from play beneath your draw deck to play this minion from your discard pile.
Archery: Wound 2 minions to make the minion archery total +1 (limit +3).
3x Lavastone Giant : Cost (6). [Moria] Minion. Giant. Strength 14. Vitality 4. Site 4.
Shadow: At a mountain site, place an Orc from play beneath your draw deck to play this minion from your discard pile.
Archery: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow condition to make the minion archery total +2 (limit +4).
3x Boulder Rock: Cost (0). [Moria] Possession. Vitality +2.
Bearer must be a Troll or a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a Shadow card, each the fellowship and minion archery totals are +2.
I update the first post.
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A lot of time indeed! Cutting cards for 16 players = 16* (45 + 70) = 1840! :o I take my hat (and scalp) off to you and your scissors!
Ok to not include new mechanics now. Perhaps Elrond's pack can have a Musical Elf a la Hobbit Farmer: non-unique and copying the text of site 3. With a good site 3 to copy! ;)
The Blue Mountains and Balin pack will probably need to carry a shield possession (or something to prevent wounds). To counter the strong archery shadows of Swarm pack 3 and Beatdown pack 3.
Dark Sorcery seems right :up:.
I think we must have only 3 different cards here (like Sauron and Gollum). We have to define the Stone Giants strategy first and its interactions with the main deck.
Ok for only 3 cards. This is my prognosis of the Main deck interactions:
- Key cards: Fimbul's job will be getting the Giants into play (and discard) for [2]. Watchful Orc [4] will be necessary to replay them at any site from 2 to 6 (except Wooded Steep Cliff). Goblin Footman [3] will play Boulder Rock on a Giant (and will get beneath the deck to play another one).
- Fuel Orcs: Yazneg [1] is the cheapest, and Narzug and the Aggressor [2] are the second best options; Fimbul can even be used that way (7 9 cards). Those will be used for vitality and the replay cost. But the Giant's replay cost doesn't allow the spent Orc to be replayed from discard, so Yazneg's low cost will be useful only once (until Boulder Rock is used). This ends up adding to the cost and must not be forgotten.
- Conditions: Not At Home will be fuel for Lavastone Giant. But not Hatred Rekindled (before site 9), as it'll be too important to cycle and play Orcs. (So this culture will steal conditions from the Mirkwood and Corrupted Men packs.)
Smaug will be awesome with 1 or 2 Giants. He'll keep strong Dwarves busy so their overwhelming chances will increase. Granit Giant can wound him somewhat safely. If he has spare vitality at regroup, he'll be discarding shields and followers to erase all archery counters, for an unhindered final attack at site 9. (Btw, the packs in this Extension will need shields/wound prevention, as both the Beatdown and Swarm packs have strong archery shadows.)
So in region 1, this shadow won't do too much given the high cost. In region 2, they'll be somewhat slow but still harmful. In region 3, this shadow will be really powerful due to the natural mountains, the high Shadow number, and a little help from their friend Smaug.
I made the first sentence of the minions simpler.
I like the replaying cost a lot. It's easy to pay and understand, prevents swarms and feeds the Boulder Rock. But their twilight cost MUST be lowered. It's really critical. Look at all these cost additions:
- From deck, +2.
- From discard, +1 or +2 will be frequent (Yazneg and Aggressor).
- From discard at a non-mountain, +4 the total.
- With a replayed Boulder Rock, +3 (the remaining Footman allows to replay another Giant for +0).
So playing from discard 2 Giants + 1 Rock at site 5/6, will cost you... 18 twilight! For only 2 minions (no Orc to wound)! (Watchful Orc + Granit Giant + Goblin Footman + Boulder Rock + Lavastone Giant.)
At 7 to 9 = 15/16 twilight (Watchful Orc is replaced by Yazneg/Aggressor). Then will be really hard to play more than 1 Giant per site. So I'd reduce their twilight cost by 2. Then 18 becomes 14, and 15/16 turns into 11/12.
But that'll make their cost really low if played from hand/deck. I think this balances that problem: split the Shadow skill into 2 sentences, to make constant the "Orc-cost" (like the 3 Trolls).
- "To play, place an Orc from play beneath your draw deck."
- "Shadow: At a mountain site, play this minion from your discard pile."
Then their cost will be affordable in region 2. Granit Giant will be "[3] + an Orc" from hand or discard (+ [2] for Fimbul, if from draw deck); from discard will also require a natural mountain (or Watchful Orc + 4 twilight). Compare it to the 3 Trolls: "[5] + an Orc" the 1st, "[3] + an Orc" the 2nd, and "[1] + an Orc" the 3rd. The Trolls are fierce, can bear a Knife for strength and damage, can impair followers and condition control... and their site number is -2.
Only 2 abilities, we have to be thrifty.
Technically a "playing cost" is not an ability. Sauron's Hatred is easy to understand and similar to this proposal: 1 playing cost and 2 active skills.
- Granit Giant: Considering all that was said (-2 cost = [3])... seems good. :up:
- Lavastone Giant: By now, the only cards in the whole Beatdown Pack 3 which replay conditions are Gangsquad Spies (Alfrid's Influence) and Borders of the Forest. So this Giant will run out of fuel soon, and after that will mean only 2 things: vitality for Granit Giant to wound, and a strong skirmisher (like Goblin Patrol Troop).
The problem is that Main deck shadow conditions are valuable. Not At Home can be burned, but not Hatred Rekindled (before site 9). Besides, the FP player will try to erase your support area. So either the Giants will have to carry a skill to replay (or return to hand or deck) a shadow condition, or the Mirkwood and Corrupted Men packs will have to do the replaying task better with their own conditions.
- Boulder Rock: Vitality +2 seems too much (really perilous with Trolls). Moreover with a lack of "limit 1 per bearer" (or a class like ranged weapon). +1 will be better.
The skill gives +2 arrows or nothing (but is assured by the replaying cost). I think it should discard the bottom 2 cards, and give +1 only for each Shadow card discarded. That way, it'll have a better flavor of rocks bursting into pieces. Also, will be useful to get to discard pile the Orcs piled at the bottom of the deck, so can be replayed at the next Shadow phase.
(0) Boulder Rock [Moria]
Possession
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a Troll or a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession and the bottom 2 cards of your draw deck. For each Shadow card discarded, both the fellowship and minion archery totals are +1.
"...splintered into little bits with a bang."
With less cards, I don't know if we will have enough cards to have an interesting Stone Giants shadow.
All those interactions and potentials seem very interesting to me! :)
EDIT: Corrected some miswritings. The corrections are written in blue and underlined.
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Just spectating here - should Granit Giant be Granite Giant?
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Thank you for all your comments. I think Granite Giant needs to be at least cost (4) (he will probably win his skirmish).
A lot of time indeed! Cutting cards for 16 players = 16* (45 + 70) = 1840! :o I take my hat (and scalp) off to you and your scissors!
Yes, all the playtests cost me a lot of time with these scissors :(. All the cards for 16 players are now printed in the same quality as LOTR TCG (with printerstudio).
Technically a "playing cost" is not an ability. Sauron's Hatred is easy to understand and similar to this proposal: 1 playing cost and 2 active skills.
Yes, but I meant to say 2 sentences then.
I made the card images of this new Shadow (I wanted to see them ^^).
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Granite_Giant.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Lavastone_Giant.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Boulder_Rock.png
I just realized that I didn't use the game text you propose for Boulder Rock, maybe later (there will be probably a lot of changes).
Just spectating here - should Granit Giant be Granite Giant?
Right! Thank you.
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Ok, I know I am wayyyyyy jumping the gun here. But seeing as it looks like the Hobbit will be put on Gemp at some point, I was wondering if there are any future plans to integrate these cards into a sort of "super-expanded" format. In other words, be able to use these cards with LotR cards together and create a new format. Sounds silly I know, but one can dream!
Also, what would it cost to have someone program that on gemp? Gemp could start a kickstarter to get someone to program the game.
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@Phallen: That kind of meddling makes me glad! One of us speaks better french, the other spanish, so having help from native (or more experienced) english-speakers is sometimes invaluable. Deeply thanks for it, and for your efforts to code this into Gemp!
@SHAAK: Adding the Hobbit cards to Decipher's is a mad idea. The kind to which I'm fond ;). But I'm not the one to approve it, and it'd take a lot of effort and time to calculate implicancies, make X-list, playtest... We got a well-nourished task list to complete first, before considering demanding ideas like that. Anyway, you're not the first to say so, and will surely not be the last... I'm not the one to deny it ;).
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I like a lot the [Moria] Giants cards! The pics are well chosen, the text is well distributed among the card, they give a feeling of cold and rain.
- Granite Giant: The lore text needs suspension points and double quotation marks: "...the stone-giants were out...". Although I'd prefer this one instead (from the film): "This is no thunderstorm. It's a thunder-battle!" The Granite Giant's skill is meant to portray that kind of behavior ;).
- Lavastone Giant: Should cost less, [5] will be better. Otherwise will be often unplayable. 5 + the Orc's cost = 6+ will then be the real cost. From deck, +2 = 8+. Keep in mind that being able to play them from deck is really important, because they can appear much earlier; the sooner you play a Giant, the sooner you'll have it in discard as a replayable resource. Also, these Giants will work better with some Orcs accompanying them so they'll need spare twilight...
From discard (at region 2) = 5 + 4 for Watchful Orc = 9 twilight. 9 is a bit less than 10, but we know from bad experiences that expensive minions can be blocked by not having 1 measly twilight more (like the frustrating case of Flame of Udun vs "Aragorn + Gimli + Frodo" choke; NSttS + DotMR make The Bridge give [6] only).
I just realized that I didn't use the game text you propose for Boulder Rock, maybe later (there will be probably a lot of changes).
The game text is slightly different, but functionally is the same. :up: Perhaps you meant the lore text...
- Boulder Rock: I got nothing to change (well, maybe the lore text). But this says it can be borne by Trolls, and obviously there will be no Trolls in the Beatdown Pack 3. Swarm Pack 2 has the Demolition Troll, but that's viable only with real cards (Draft format). So in Gemp there will be no possible combination of this possession + a Troll...
Unless one of the new Supplementary packs contains a Troll. What about a "Catapult Troll"?
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmoviebrew.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2Fhobbit3-finalbattle-trolls-army-tsr.jpg&hash=c180c9b3a131ab3c0a50f56537198603a78a2c2a)
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz249%2Fkrazymoonkat%2FAnimations%2FOther%2520people%2520and%2520characters%2FLOTRs%2520others%2Fothers11-1.gif&hash=069b40552e8fc12881f577ce92fd38f6d285095e)
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@Shaak: Sure an expanded format will be great, but probably unbalanced. All Gandalf are really strong in the Hobbit format.
- Granite Giant: The lore text needs suspension points and double quotation marks: "...the stone-giants were out...". Although I'd prefer this one instead (from the film): "This is no thunderstorm. It's a thunder-battle!" The Granite Giant's skill is meant to portray that kind of behavior ;).
Ok for "This is no thunderstorm. It's a thunder-battle!".
- Lavastone Giant: Should cost less, [5] will be better. Otherwise will be often unplayable. 5 + the Orc's cost = 6+ will then be the real cost. From deck, +2 = 8+. Keep in mind that being able to play them from deck is really important, because they can appear much earlier; the sooner you play a Giant, the sooner you'll have it in discard as a replayable resource. Also, these Giants will work better with some Orcs accompanying them so they'll need spare twilight...
From discard (at region 2) = 5 + 4 for Watchful Orc = 9 twilight. 9 is a bit less than 10, but we know from bad experiences that expensive minions can be blocked by not having 1 measly twilight more (like the frustrating case of Flame of Udun vs "Aragorn + Gimli + Frodo" choke; NSttS + DotMR make The Bridge give [6] only).
Don't know yet, I think now that the bottom deck strategy should be only part of the [Men] Shadow. It will be weird to see [Men] Men and Stone-Giants working together.
Maybe "To play, discard a [Moria] card". There will be [Moria] cards in each Swarm Pack. And damage +1.
The game text is slightly different, but functionally is the same. :up: Perhaps you meant the lore text...
I didn't read what I wrote :(. Yes, it's about the lore text.
Unless one of the new Supplementary packs contains a Troll. What about a "Catapult Troll"?
We need more Trolls! For sure, the Blue Mountains Pack will contain one. Maybe also another one ? A "Catapult Troll" will be great :).
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I know this is a little far in advance, but I would like to see more companions available. Specifically, I think it would be interesting to make another copy of each Dwarf follower as a companion and the same number of Dwarf companions as followers. While all the different packs enable different free people's strategies, I feel like having some choices to make for companions would add a layer of tactics to the game. This would be especially true since one would have to pick between the follower's text and the companion's text, since they'd have the same name and substantially different functions.
While I understand that The Hobbit Trilogy picked favorites for which dwarves got the most screen time, I don't believe the book was quite so unfair :P
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I know this is a little far in advance, but I would like to see more companions available. Specifically, I think it would be interesting to make another copy of each Dwarf follower as a companion and the same number of Dwarf companions as followers. While all the different packs enable different free people's strategies, I feel like having some choices to make for companions would add a layer of tactics to the game. This would be especially true since one would have to pick between the follower's text and the companion's text, since they'd have the same name and substantially different functions.
While I understand that The Hobbit Trilogy picked favorites for which dwarves got the most screen time, I don't believe the book was quite so unfair :P
If we make more companions available, the problem will be where to put these new cards:
- In the main deck: it will be hard to balance. And there will be a lot of FP cards in the main deck: 30+13=43 FP cards vs 30 Shadow cards.
- In a new main deck: key companions (Balin, Kili, Fili, Dwalin,.... Thorin?) will be only followers and not companions.
- In the boosters: a different [Dwarven] companion could unbalanced the game a lot. This requires a lot of tests. I prefer to tell the players they have already all possible companions before the draft, it is more comfortable.
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True that, Hobbit "DCG" is quite limited with the choice of companions and/or other characters. Which is quite sad, according that Enola´s great job.
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- In a new main deck: key companions (Balin, Kili, Fili, Dwalin,.... Thorin?) will be only followers and not companions.
Well, That's what I'd meant. Balin, Dwalin, Kili, Fili, Nori, and Gloin become followers while Ori, Dori, Oin, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur become companions. However, I understand your desire to keep the Draft game simple. In my opinion, you could keep the Draft game alive while creating a Constructed Hobbit game. I believe many players are like myself, and would prefer to play LotR with Hobbit cards - but I'd forgotten that this game is not meant to be a constructed game.Once I finish with The Short Rest, I'll ask Merrick about a Sealed league. If he's open to it, I can fairly easily create it and Merrick can have it played whenever he wants.
Further, I can look into creating a draft game for 2-8 players by mimicking the Daily Tournament format. I wouldn't get my hopes up for that as it's substantially more complicated than anything else I'm doing, but I might try after I'm done with the rest of the game.
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Sure, I could make other [Dwarven] companions. I think we should take about that after the first tests on gemp ;).
Further, I can look into creating a draft game for 2-8 players by mimicking the Daily Tournament format. I wouldn't get my hopes up for that as it's substantially more complicated than anything else I'm doing, but I might try after I'm done with the rest of the game.
Great! That would be awesome ;). But you are right, there are not the primary objectives at the moment: track the errors+balance the constructed formats.
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Don't know yet, I think now that the bottom deck strategy should be only part of the [Evil Men] Shadow. It will be weird to see [Evil Men] Men and Stone-Giants working together.
Maybe "To play, discard a [Moria] card". There will be [Moria] cards in each Swarm Pack. And damage +1.
Weird indeed. Although I don't think Giants and Men will work well together (Giants won't leave twilight to play Men + more Orcs; also the Giants' "orc-cost" is enough to make Boulder Rock work well). But still is better to separate resources.
Now, "discard a [Moria] card" isn't a good idea, there's just too few. Beatdown pack 3 can have synergies with Swarm packs (you know I love cross-pack interactions), but needs to be able to stand on its own legs, in case of a 2-players Draft game where those synergies simply won't be possible.
This should be better: "To play, return your Orc to your hand." Has good flavor (orcs retreat when a monster appears), and alike the current is easy to understand and reduces swarms. But has 2 advantages: uses 1 line less, and lowers the practical twilight cost (since Yazneg can be replayed immediatly). Then Men would use the bottom of the deck, Giants'd use cards in hand, and Elves another resource like Orcs in play. Or even use different site keywords...
Boulder Rock can be adapted to discard random Shadow cards from hand, since many Orcs will return to hand. To increase even more the ratio of Shadow to FP cards in hand, you can ditch 3 FP cards to replay an Orc (and then return it with a Giant's play cost).
(0) Boulder Rock [Moria]
Possession
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a Troll or a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to discard up to 3 cards at random from hand. For each Shadow card discarded in this way, the minion archery total is +1."
"...splintered into little bits with a bang."
Since discarding cards at random can undermine your own FP or Shadow strategies, this gives you the control at least on how many you'll discard. Given the higher cost and the randomness, this version increases only the minion archery.
We need more Trolls! For sure, the Blue Mountains Pack will contain one. Maybe also another one ? A "Catapult Troll" will be great :).
Great! I still don't know what should be doing this "Catapult Troll" (probably discard FP support cards at battlegrounds).
If you want more Trolls, there's the funny one that headbutts the wall of Dale (and falls uncounscious), and some "armoured trolls". But I like better the troll that carries the ladder bridge at the frozen river (EE only). Such "Bridging Troll" would allow orcs to cross more easily (1st skill), and also in larger numbers (2nd skill)...
[6] Bridging Troll [Moria]
(https://s9.postimg.org/nqln1jj8f/snapshot_01_43_04.jpg)
Minion • Troll
Strength 12 Vitality 4 Site 4
Damage +1.
Shadow: Play an Orc to add [1].
Shadow: Exert this minion twice and remove [X] to play X Orcs from your discard pile.
"Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways..."
Just a prototype. If you have a certain amount of twilight, the 2nd skill can replay 1 expensive orc, 2 mid-cost orcs, 3 little orcs... the more orcs you try to play, the less twilight you'll have to play them. So should work well with both Swarm and Beatdown decks. After using such skill, arrows can bring it down (like in the film)...
Sure, I could make other [Dwarven] companions. I think we should take about that after the first tests on gemp ;).
Time ago, I thought of a way of including alternative versions of companions. Those would use FP cards slots in Supplementary packs. Obviously, they would have new skills. But those skills would be designed in such way that may be used with either the new or the Main deck version... This is what I had for Gandalf (I know, he has already 4 versions...):
[4] •Gandalf, Troublemaker [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Fellowship: Exert Gandalf (or discard this card from hand) to play a Dwarf companion or Dwarf follower from your draw deck (limit twice per phase).
A Gandalf that plays followers and companions. So you can play this Troublemaker as companion and use the skill whenever you want, or have another version of Gandalf in play and use this the same way as the usual "discard another copy to heal". The same can be done with other companions like Thorin ("King in Exile"?), or with [Dwarven] followers...
[2] •Óin, Wise Veteran [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength 6 Vitality 3
Damage +1.
At the start of each of your turns, you may add [2] to heal a companion.
Skirmish: Exert Óin (or discard this card from hand) to heal an exhausted Dwarf companion and remove [1].
"I'll stay with the lad. My duty lies with the wounded."
Emergency mid-skirmish healing (and some twilight remotion). Mighty with Dwalin, Glóin, Fili...
So guys... what do you think?
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This should be better: "To play, return your Orc to your hand." Has good flavor (orcs retreat when a monster appears), and alike the current is easy to understand and reduces swarms. But has 2 advantages: uses 1 line less, and lowers the practical twilight cost (since Yazneg can be replayed immediatly). Then Men would use the bottom of the deck, Giants'd use cards in hand, and Elves another resource like Orcs in play. Or even use different site keywords...
Boulder Rock can be adapted to discard random Shadow cards from hand, since many Orcs will return to hand. To increase even more the ratio of Shadow to FP cards in hand, you can ditch 3 FP cards to replay an Orc (and then return it with a Giant's play cost).
(0) Boulder Rock [Moria]
Possession
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a Troll or a [Moria] Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to discard up to 3 cards at random from hand. For each Shadow card discarded in this way, the minion archery total is +1."
"...splintered into little bits with a bang."
Since discarding cards at random can undermine your own FP or Shadow strategies, this gives you the control at least on how many you'll discard. Given the higher cost and the randomness, this version increases only the minion archery.
"To play, return your Orc to your hand." It think it's a great idea with the new Boulder Rock, but we had a similar strategy with the Nazguls at a moment, and it makes the game lasts longer: play an Orc, then return it in hand to play another minion.... We will test it. And the Stone Giants are now damage +1?
(0) Boulder Rock [Moria]
Possession
Vitality +1
Bearer must be a Troll or a Giant.
Archery: Discard this possession to discard 2 cards at random from hand. For each Shadow card discarded in this way, the minion archery total is +1.
"...splintered into little bits with a bang."
Great! But I prefer a fixed number of cards to discard (not "up to X").
[6] Bridging Troll [Moria]
Minion • Troll
Strength 12 Vitality 4 Site 4
Damage +1.
Shadow: Play an Orc to add [1].
Shadow: Exert this minion twice and remove [X] to play X Orcs from your discard pile.
"Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways..."
Great! Really good in both Swarm Pack and Beatdown Pack. Maybe a bit too strong.
We will put this Troll in the Balin Pack or in the Blue Mountains Pack? Maybe Balin and another Troll in the Blue Mountains Pack?
Time ago, I thought of a way of including alternative versions of companions. Those would use FP cards slots in Supplementary packs. Obviously, they would have new skills. But those skills would be designed in such way that may be used with either the new or the Main deck version... This is what I had for Gandalf (I know, he has already 4 versions...):
In order to be able to play all 15 characters of the company (Bilbo+Gandalf+13 Dwarves), I made some [Dwarven] characters as followers. Moreover, the crowd control begins at 7 companions (not at 6 like LOTR TCG), that way we have the feeling of a bigger company.
I think [Dwarven] companions in the boosters will unbalanced the draft game.
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I'm sorry for this absence. The same as usually... lately health and energy have been low, while daily activities have been demanding. But nothing that could ever threaten to kill me. "I'm born to rock and roll, I'm here to stay" says an old anthem...
"To play, return your Orc to your hand." It think it's a great idea with the new Boulder Rock, but we had a similar strategy with the Nazguls at a moment, and it makes the game lasts longer: play an Orc, then return it in hand to play another minion.... We will test it.
I think it'll be OK, as depends on the number of minions played. Nazguls can be played 2 per site somewhat easily. But will be hard to play more than 1 Giant per site (before region 3). Thus less Orcs are returned to hand. Also, Nazguls then had skills that costed to discard Orcs from hand (unlike Giants); with 9 different Nazguls and 1 weapon, having to decide whether to spend the Orcs in hand here or there must have lengthened the game a lot.
Giants are much simpler: the Orc is played, and then goes to hand when you play a Giant. Are more expensive, and don't have skills that require specifically to discard Orcs. Still, if happens to lengthen too much the game, you can change it to "To play, discard an Orc."
And the Stone Giants are now damage +1?
That'd be OK but will require to reduce the archery power, to not flood too easily the Company with wounds. That, or increase the twilight cost. But if they'd cost more, it'd be too hard to play enough Giants at the late game. At region 2, playing 1 Giant per site can be enough to get good stopping power and some grind, but at region 3 stopping power won't be that relevant (you simply need to kill). So it's really important to keep them cheap enough at region 3 (but not too cheap)...
Lurtz SoI can be used as a reference (archer, dmg+1 and his strength is similar): ugly and frightening, delivers 3 wounds for 7 twilight, or 5 wounds for 9+ (fierce). But being damage +1, he often overwhelms weak guys if the stronger defenders don't have 3+ vitality to withstand him. He can easily become fierce, which doubles that overwhelming power. Almost all Dwarves here will have vitality 3, which makes them unable to take 1 arrow and then survive a skirmish to a dmg+1 Giant, even if aren't overwhelmed.
Giants won't become fierce, happily. I think Giants shouldn't deliver more than 4 wounds each, to allow the total cost (Giant + Orc) to be kept moderate as is it (between [5] and [7]) so you can play regularly 2 per site in region 3. Therefore, the "limit +X" would need to be reduced to 2 only (2 in skirmish, 2 in archery). If so, Boulder Rock will be the only way to increase the archery beyond that small limit.
- Boulder Rock: Ok for a fixed number. But I think 3 will be better than 2, to be worthy of the cost. Boulder Rock will often cost [3] (due to the Footman) if you play only 1 Giant, or [2] if you play 2 Giants (Footman costs +2 than Yazneg)... this is the order:
1) you play an Orc for [1] to [4],
2) you return it to play a Giant for [4] or [6],
3) you play the Footman for [3] to get the Boulder Rock from discard.
4) If you happen to have enough twilight, you can play a 2nd Giant for [4] ot [6] more (by returning the Footman).
In region 2 (artificial mountains) it's [7] for the Orcs + [4] to [6] = 11 to 13 twilight for "1 Giant + 1 Rock", or 15 to 19 for "2 Giants + 1 Rock". In region 3, you need 3 twilight less = 8 to 10 for "1 Giant + Rock", or 12 to 16 for "2 Giants +1 Rock". Finally, you may replay that Footman you just returned to hand, to get a total of "2 Giants + 2 replayed Boulder Rocks" for 18 to 22 at region 2, or 15 to 19 at region 3.
It's too much twilight for a single item, then it must worth it. And must be worthy of being discarded by a Troll (which don't have the Orc-returning mechanism to enrich the Shadow/FP cards ratio in hand, and may prefer to keep it for the extra vitality and better stopping power).
- Bridging Troll: It's similar to Ordnance Grunt (cost 6, str 12, dmg+1), but +1 vitality and -1 site number. The 2nd skill may have a "limit 3", to prevent this sole card from flooding the board with Orcs if twilight is, let's say, 20 or more.
I don't know where it should go, it may be in Balin or Blue Mountains, but will depend on the needs of the pack. Probably in Blue Mountains, because you said you want that pack to impulse heavy [Dwarven] follower support and combos (which will be countering strongly both Beatdown and Swarm).
I think [Dwarven] companions in the boosters will unbalance the draft game.
Totally agree, will be hard to balance AND is not a priority now. I only wanted to post it because the issue was already mentioned, if someone wants to work with that idea. The idea was to make alternative versions that don't end up as dead cards due to the unique ruling (if a player still prefers to use the previous version). The new version'd still have usefulness when used by discarding, without interfering with the previous version in play.
Gandalf Troublemaker was meant as a support card to play [Dwarven] companions from deck, as you said you want. Another thing can take its place, like a [Dwarven] event perhaps titled "At Your Service!":
[1] At Your Service! [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Exert Bilbo to play a [Dwarven] companion or a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck.
Hope this helps. "Late is better than never", they say...
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Ok for 3 instead of only 2 for the Boulder Rock.
What bothers me is the lack of interaction with Narzug in this Beatdown Pack 3. Maybe "To play, discard an Orc" then?
Ok for the limit on the Bridging Troll. It will probably be in the Balin Pack and another Troll in the Blue Mountains Pack, but not sure yet.
Can you give me some lore texts for each card of the Swarm Pack 3 and Beatdown Pack 3? I will make these cards soon, I will show them during the Hobbit Draft Game Tournament the 19 november.
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What about the "limit +2" arrows for both Granite and Lavastone Giants? This point is really important. Let me know if you have a different idea.
- Narzug: Actually he CAN be triggered by Granite Giant: you can wound Narzug twice with the Giant's skill. Although the availability of twilight worries me, it's [2] for Narzug and [3] for the trigger, besides the expensive Giant + Orc cost. But the good side is that for [2] more than your idea, you'll have the advantage of absorbing 2 wounds of the archery skill's cost.
- Bridging Troll: When the development process of Balin and Blue Mountains begins, we'll see if this Troll fits better the needs of one or the other. I have no problem.
I'll be working on the lore text of all new Shadow packs. But, as a separate task, we must still define better the remaining 2 cultures: Evil Men and Mirkwood Elves. Both are OP in my opinion, but Men are much worse, the double exertion with Alfrid's Influence and 3 of 4 minions is too much. As those cards might change, then I'll be thinking in different lore texts using 1 and 2 lines, for each card.
- The Elvenking, !Guardian: I like the Deceived Wizards mechanic you took. But I think some details require change:
1) He should be strength 11 but without damage bonus. Strength 9 is too easy to defeat, and though it can be very useful for swarms, it's not representative of his stature as swordsman. As a reference, there's 2 characters with Shadow versions made by Decipher: Gollum (str+2 than Sméagol) and Radagast Deceived (str+4 than Radagast). Decipher made all evil versions stronger than their respective nice guys. Another card in the pack might give him damage (or even a skill in this same Elvenking card).
2) The trigger can work in ways contrary to the story (such as Bilbo using the One Ring). I think it should be a maneuver skill with a cost, like "remove a doubt" or "discard an Orc". Discarding orcs reduces the swarm potential (a card that stays in support area is very good for that, but this is a Beatdown shadow), can be used to discard Narzug, and has the flavor of Thranduil killing the same foes as all other Free Peoples.
3) It's ok that he cannot take wounds (even if having 4 vitality for mere flavor), but "cannot bear other cards" is only wasting card room. Then he'd have 2 spare lines, for another skill or lore text.
Then, my version of The Elvenking would be like this:
[3] •The Elvenking, !Guardian of the Woodland Realm [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support Area
Skirmish: Remove 2 doubts to make a minion damage +1 (limit +1).
Maneuver: Discard an Orc to make this condition become until the end of the turn a fierce Elf minion that has 11 strength and 4 vitality and cannot take wounds. This card is still a condition.
The damage adding skill is to portray Thranduil letting the Orcs cross his borders, only to kill the escaping Dwarves; obviously can be used for himself too. If you want lore text instead of that underlined skill, can be any of these (I like best the 2nd):
- "...I will keep you all in prison until you have learned sense and manners!" (book)
- "Other lands are not my concern. The fortunes of the world will rise and fall..." (film)
- "I warned your grandfather of what his greed would summon... You are just like him." (film)
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I remove the damage+1 bonuses of the Giants.
- Narzug: Right.
- Alfrid's Influence: I remove the first sentence.
- Elvenking: I choose a simpler version. I want only one ability.
All cards are on the first post.
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Here are the lore texts suggestion for the Goblin-town Archers. The free room of each card is mentioned also.
- Goblin Bow: 2 free lines. This card currently lacks the "bearer must be" line.
"Every moment they expected to feel the bite of black-feathered arrows. Many whined overhead..." (2 lines)
- !Goblin Archer Troop: 4 free lines.
"At that moment there was a twang of bowstrings: several arrows whistled over them, and some fell among them." (3 lines)
- Goblin Town Band: 4 free lines.
"It was dark, but not too dark for the night-eyes of Orcs..." (2 lines)
- Goblin Town Archer: 4 free lines.
"They did not halt until they were out of bowshot from the walls." (2 lines)
(All those are actually from the FotR book, while travelling in the Anduin...)
- Goblin Bonebreaker: 3 free lines.
"...instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air..."
- The Great Goblin: 4 free lines (but you can still spend 1 or 2 for a short active skill). I like the text you chose, but I'd extend it to its full length:
"Slash them! Beat them! Bite them! Gnash them! Take them away to dark holes full of snakes, and never let them see the light again!" (3 lines)
(Those are obviously from the Hobbit book)
Hope you like them. I have some loose ends to tie still, about the other cultures. Soon.
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Thanks, I'll use them. In order to have max 2 lines of text (easier for me with gimp), I cut some of them.
Thank you for the error on the Goblin Bow. I correct it.
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I'm sorry for this delay. Same as usually... :(
Ok for 2 lines. It makes also cards easier to change, in case you want or need to modify/add some game text. Here are 3 of the 4 missing cultures:
* Sauron Swarm Shadow:
- Hidden: You changed it from wounding to a powerful swarm fuel. I like it! :up: 8-)
- "Wait, Gandalf! What if it's a trap?!" (1 line, DoS)
- Rise of the Necromancer: 3 free lines.
- "The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come." (2 lines, BotFA) the text is trimmed, here's the original
- "It has begun. The East will fall. So shall the Kingdom of Angmar rise. The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come." (3 lines)
- Dark Sorcery: 3 free lines.
- "These are dark spells... old and full of hate." (1 line, DoS)
- Orc !Ambusher: 3 free lines.
- "Something moves in the shadows unseen... It will not show itself... But every day it grows in strength." (2 lines, AUJ)
- Orc Sentinel: 3 free lines.
- "If what you say is true, the world is in grave danger. The power in that fortress will only grow stronger." (2 lines, DoS)
- Malevolent Orc: 4 free lines.
- "I saw them with my own eyes. Rank upon rank of Moria Orcs!" (2 lines, BotFA)
* Stone Giants Shadow:
Without the damage bonus, each Giant has 1 more line. So you might give Lavastone Giant the 1-line text that's currently on Granite Giant ("This is no thunderstorm. It's a thunder-battle!"), and then give the Granite Giant this longer text: "The lightning splinters on the peaks, and rocks shiver, and great crashes split the air..." (2 lines, from the book)
* Corrupted Men Shadow:
- Gangsquad Spies & Laketown Patrol: These should have their lore texts interchanged: "What are dwarves doing in these parts?" seems better for an informant than an authority, while "If you come in peace, lay down your weapons" is imperative and subtly menacing, better for someone who carries an uniform ;).
- Alfrid's Influence: These bullies are cool, but would be better if they'd interact with site keywords. Alfrid's Influence's passive skill might change from "The site number of each [Men] minion is -3" to "Each [Men] minion is site number -2 (and strength +1 if at a river or battleground)." It'd give usefulness to Watchful Orc, while triggering naturally at all sites 6 (and most 7 and 9, and even some 4 and 5).
Also, I'd make it non-unique so you can have more copies on the board (more reliable, providing also more fuel for Lavastone Giant ;)). Then the site-related strength bonus would stack (there'd be different degrees of Alfrid's domination :P). But that'd need to shorten the lore text to 1 line only:
- "Someone's been stirring the pot, sire."
- "You'd do well to remember: we know where you live." (though this'd need a different picture, at the Laketown Gate)
- We Caught Them Stealing Weapons: I'd rename it "Enemies of the State." I like the idea (besides, there was too many exerting Men), but +3 to ANY minion for each card borne by a companion is simply too much. It also lacks a spot requirement. This is what I'd do, somewhat similar to Men Will Fall:
[2] Enemies of the State [Men]
Event • Skirmish
Spot a [Men] Man to choose one: make a [Men] Man strength +3, or make a companion or ally strength -1 for each card he or she bears (except Bilbo).
"We caught them stealing weapons, Sire."
You need to keep the [Men] guy alive to use it with a minion of another culture. Therefore, it'll also synergize with Braga's lurker text.
- Gangsquad Spies If you are going to pack a Skirmish event, it'd be better to make the Spies take a [Men] card into hand than directly play it: "Shadow: Exert this minion and discard a Shadow card from hand to take into hand a [Men] card from your draw deck or discard pile."
As said above, the lore text should be the current of Laketown Patrol.
- Braga: :up: If there's a single Evil Man who should be fierce, that's Braga. Perhaps his vitality should be lower, since only direct wounding can counter him before he fights. A cool thing is that Iron-Forged Weapon does exactly that.
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I still owe you the review of Mirkwood culture.
I noticed you are posting the prototypes of the new Supplementary packs, I have many ideas to post. But by now, I'll say only that'd like to see Musical Instruments in Balin's and Blue Mountains packs, it'd be good to portray the festive spirit of the Dwarven brotherhood. There's pictures of a fiddle and a flute (and even a teapot), in the Unexpected Party...
[1] Dwarven Fiddle [Dwarven]
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf, heal bearer.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to take into hand a non-maneuver [Dwarven] event from your draw deck (limit 1).
"The dark filled all the room, and the fire died down, and the shadows were lost, and still they played on."
I posted this before. Allows you to take any non-maneuver [Dwarven] event (maneuver events are too poweful), which gives Balin importance as he'll be recycling them. And heals bearer when another Dwarf joins the Company.
[1] Dwarven Flute [Dwarven]
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a [Dwarven] follower or a [Dwarven] event, you may draw a card.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to use the fellowship special ability of another [Dwarven] card (without paying its cost).
"Now for some music! Bring out the instruments!"
This one draws cards, and allows bearer to replace the cost of Balin or Thorin's skills (or any other [Dwarven] fellowship ability we include in the same pack). That allows you to use Balin's skill with much less risk, or Thorin's without having to discard followers.
Tell me what you think about them.
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Thank you! I take all the lore texts you proposed! 8-)
- Alfrid's Influence: I prefer a simple card, I'm not sure players will remind a such low boost at a river or battleground. Watchful Orc will be very used with the Stone Giants. For this card, I keep the lore text (it's a good way to see Alfrid's Influence on the Master).
- Enemies of the State: I change the cards. We need an universal boost for all minions (like Dissension or If He Loses).
3x Enemies of the State: Cost (2). [Men]
Event • Skirmish
Make a minion strength +1 (or +3 if you spot a [Men] card). If that minion wins this skirmish, discard a [Dwarven] card attached to a companion.
"We caught them stealing weapons, Sire."
- Gangsquad Spies: It will probably be too strong to search cards in both discard pile and draw deck. I propose only draw deck (a way to shuffle your deck in Shadow phase).
3x Gangsquad Spies : Cost (3). [Men]
Minion • Man.
Strength 8. Vitality 2. Site 6.
Each time this minion is assigned to skirmish a character, exert that character.
Shadow: Exert this minion to take a [Men] card from your draw deck into hand.
"What are dwarves doing in these parts?"
The first effect of the Fiddle is good. But I don't like the "non-", maybe only fellowship or skirmish events ?
Same for the Flute. "Fellowship special ability" could be difficult for some players to understand quickly (and without any mistake).
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Thank you! I take all the lore texts you proposed! 8-)
- Enemies of the State: I like it! :up: It's very disruptive, will force the FP player to solve first the skirmishes that will surely win. Because a suprise loss against this event allows the Shadow player to then discard a weapon/follower, to weaken and defeat or even overwhelm another guy! Really good! The cost [2] balances that power, and gives some predictability. :up:
It has a strong flavor, even if used with non- [Men] monsters like Smaug... "Either our little friends return triumphant, in which case I stand to make a pretty penny, or old Smaug dines on Dwarf for a day or two."
- Alfrid's Influence: Ok. But I think it should be non-unique. Having a 2nd copy won't stack the effect (after site 2), but makes the card more reliable.
- Gangsquad Spies: Alright, it's ok to not recover [Men] events (too mighty) or [Men] minions (Alfrid's Influence does that; we don't want another Old Tomnody). But what about conditions? How can you rebuild your support area, if all copies of Alfrid's Influence in your deck get discarded? I'd change it to grab any [Men] card from deck as you say, but also any [Men] condition from discard pile: "Shadow: Exert this minion to take a [Men] card from your draw deck (or a [Men] condition from your discard pile) into hand."
- Dwarven Fiddle: Could be "fellowship or skirmish" [Dwarven] events, but I want to include other phases except Maneuver. Assignment and Regroup, like Dwarven Song (a fiddle accompanying the deep voices ;)), Thrór's Heirlooms and Du Bekâr from other Supplementary packs. This text can be better then: "Fellowship: Exert bearer to take into hand a [Dwarven] event (except a maneuver event) from your draw deck (limit 1)." There's no "non-maneuver" wording then. ;)
Probably there will be new [Dwarven] Assignment, Regroup or Response events, even in the same Balin pack... look at this one:
[1] Burned Dwarves [Dwarven]
(https://s13.postimg.org/ygzpgsj2f/AUJ_00_51_34.jpg)
Event • Assignment
Make until the regroup phase a [Dwarven] character defender +1 (and strength +2 if is Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Glóin or Dáin Ironfoot).
"...and to this day a Dwarf will say proudly of one of his sires: "he was a burned Dwarf", and that is enough."
A resource to get defender bonus. There's nothing like that yet, and many players and decks will give it a warm welcome (Thorin's towering strength will be more useful). When used with a survivor of that pyrrhic victory, also gives +2 strength until regroup. A Dwarf musician should be able to bring this kind of memories and attitudes back to the Company. The instrument should be able to interact with this kind of cards, (not only with skirmish pumps and fellowship set up / healing tricks).
(The 5 mentioned [Dwarven] characters are the only known survivors of Azanulbizar which are companion or ally cards in the HDG. All other confirmed veterans (if ever portrayed) are followers: Bifur (film only), Óin, Ori (really, he must have been around 160 or more during the Quest!), and king Thráin. And others are not known if participated: it's very likely Ori's brothers Dori and Nori had enough age to fight, note that Glóin was present with merely 16 years! As well as others who weren't part of the film or were unnamed, like Nár (Thrór's companion towards Moria) and Gróin (Óin/Glóin's father). So perhaps Nori should be added to that list above; there's enough room.)
- Dwarven Flute: Ok, to avoid confusion might be a Response action which triggers during the fellowship phase only: "Response: If the special ability of a [Dwarven] card is used during the fellowship phase, exert bearer instead of paying its cost." This skill is a bit different: 1) you must be able to pay the original cost of the special ability, 2) then you use that ability, 3) then respond with this skill to not pay the original cost. That means: Balin mustn't be exhausted, and Thorin must spot a [Dwarven] follower, in order to use their respective skills.
[1] Dwarven Flute [Dwarven]
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] event, you may draw a card.
Response: If the special ability of a [Dwarven] card is used during the fellowship phase, exert bearer instead of paying its cost.
"Now for some music! Bring out the instruments!"
Changed the passive skill a tiny bit: you now also draw cards when Dwarf companions are played.
As you can see, the [Dwarven] musical Instruments are designed to support one the other. Dwarven Flute reduces the burden on Balin and Fiddle players, while Dwarven Fiddle grabs events which can be recycled by Balin, or can play a possession like another Instrument (Careful With These!).
Then, the Fiddle increases Balin's usefulness, while the Flute reduces the cost of using Balin's skill.
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- Alfrid's Influence: Ok with non-unique.
- Gangsquad Spies: I don't like this long sentence in brackets. I propose another way (the event cannot be taken back)
3x Gangsquad Spies : Cost (3). [Men]
Minion • Man.
Strength 8. Vitality 2. Site 6.
Each time this minion is assigned to skirmish a character, exert that character.
Shadow: Discard a Shadow card from hand to play a [Men] card from your draw deck or discard pile (limit once per phase).
"What are dwarves doing in these parts?"
These [Dwarven] cards are done for which pack? Maybe propose 4-5 [Dwarven] cards with a strategy based on To Me O My Kinsfolk! and/or Noble Intentions (the 2 worst events in the main deck), it will be very helpful ;).
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- Gangsquad Spies: Ok, seems better. Discarding a Shadow card erases the "Old Tomnoddy effect". :up:
These [Dwarven] cards are done for which pack?
Since the films show only 2 Musical Instruments and a teapot #-o, those 2 can either be in the same pack or in 2 different packs. I prefer to include 1 in Balin's pack and 1 in Blue Mountains pack (Dwarven Thirst will be the "festive card" of the Travellers pack). Then we need to "tune up" each Musical Instrument to the needs and synergies of each pack.
"Burned Dwarves" is for Balin's Pack. Balin was one of the most developed Dwarves in all Tolkien's work. Such pack must portray well his deep and multifaceted character:
1.- He was a fierce veteran of a traumatic conflict, so we need cards regarding the War of Dwarves and Orcs. And fighting events or tools.
2.- He was very friendly and wise (Bilbo's best Dwarf friend), so he must have some burden remotion or healing.
3.- He was the 2nd at command, so it'd be good to give him some "leadership" or "strategist" tool or event.
4.- He was the future leader of the Reconquest of Moria (tools/events to synergize with Ori and Óin).
5.- He was Dwalin's dear brother! (perhaps a HIDAN or Shoulder to Shoulder between them)
So we need to balance and merge a lot of interactions and goals into... 6 measly cards! Burned Dwarves helps with points 1, 3 and 5. But doesn't satisfy them totally.
Maybe propose 4-5 [Dwarven] cards with a strategy based on To Me O My Kinsfolk! and/or Noble Intentions (the 2 worst events in the main deck), it will be very helpful ;).
That explains the text of the Dwarven Chariot... :-k Ok, I'll be working in ways to enhance those 2 events.
Actually the Intruments will work marvels with To Me! O My Kinsfolk! with the "each time you play a Dwarf" trigger. By playing the event, the Fiddle will heal bearer once and the Flute will draw up to 2 cards (1 for the event, 1 for the Dwarf). Thorin's skill can discard a follower if needed, and Balin can recycle the event. We can even create a possession to allow To Me! O My Kinsfolk! to be played during regroup (after Yazneg or Smaug discards your followers).
Regarding Noble Intentions, a way of increasing its use is to give an award "each time Bilbo wins a skirmish." Or even "each time a Dwarf exerts during a skirmish involving Bilbo." This is a rough example:
[1] !Never Been So Wrong [Dwarven]
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F0a602551bd9d690f5f20ce70dc7dfedd%2Ftumblr_inline_nejmfnfxjp1rt5yq9.gif&hash=6ba112729f8332eb7dbadbc60f9b517d76a00373)
Event • Response
If Bilbo wins a skirmish, heal a Dwarf, or exert Bilbo to remove a doubt.
Each time a Dwarf exerts during a skirmish involving Bilbo, you may discard 2 cards from hand to take this event into hand from discard pile.
"I am sorry I doubted you."
Healing or doubt remotion. And since Noble Intentions recovers it to hand, "the noble intentions of the Dwarves will lighten Bilbo's heart." It's merely a prototype, but can be the "burden remotion or healing" card of Balin's pack (as stated above). Having also Burned Dwarves, Balin's Pack would be "the Hugs pack". :P
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I'm not a big fan of instruments in different Packs, but maybe 2 instruments in the Blue Mountains Pack would be enough.
[1] Dwarven Fiddle [Dwarven]
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play Bifur, Bofur or Bombur, you may heal bearer.
Fellowship: Add [2] and discard a [Dwarven] follower to take a skirmish [Dwarven] event from your draw deck into hand.
"The dark filled all the room, and the fire died down, and the shadows were lost, and still they played on."
[1] Dwarven Flute [Dwarven]
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play Bifur, Bofur or Bombur, you may draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Add [2] and exert bearer to play a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck (limit once per turn).
"Now for some music! Bring out the instruments!"
I don't like Never Been So Wrong, unfortunately this card will never be used. Bilbo wins rarely his skirmishes.
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Just wanted to chime in, what you've done here is awesome!
I have a request to make, though I know it might be a bit much:
My friends and I play Lotr TCG with physical cards (I have a group of 5 friends, and we have 20 decks among us, to keep things fresh :P). With the help of magic set editor (From this post http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8584.0.html, thanks to Eomund), and about 2 years of creativity, I also create my own cards for us to use and play with (things from the Hobbit, or from Silmarillion, and such). I'd love to use/incorporate some of your cards and ideas into our games!
So, tl;dr: Would you ever considering posting the image files of all your Hobbit cards on your website? [-o<
Regardless, love the work! :)
EDIT: To clarify, they're actually up there already (I could take the images one by one if I felt so inclined). This was mostly a post to say how cool it is, to ask permission to do so, and to ask if you could put them all in one file for easy downloading because I'm lazy haha
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A month since my last post :(... I've been tired and busy, as usual.
- Hobbit Game in Gemp: I got a question. Will the Smaug cards have a new culture button in the deckbuilder? Or will all be scattered? To include a "Smaug button" would make any search much easier. The button might have no culture symbol at all, the mere word "Smaug" should be enough.
- Ori's Slingshot: You're including it in Balin's pack, I like that. But such a weapon shouldn't wound minions. A small stone simply won't kill an Orc, but for sure will make him lose his focus. So we can portray that distraction and annoyance in a useful way:
[1] •Ori's Slingshot [Dwarven] (Balin's Pack)
Possession • Support Area
Each time you attach Ori, you may place up to 2 [Dwarven] cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand to make a minion strength -1.
Ori's weapon often hurted the focus of his foes.
The skirmish skill distracts a minion in battle. Doesn't need a specific follower, but will work much better with Ori + Balin (given the hand extension). The passive skill makes Ori recover the [Dwarven] cards you'll be spending, thus he becomes a powerful AND sustainable cycling machine. Since those cards will be placed at the bottom, that skill won't replace Balin's (still necessary to shuffle the deck and to recover non- [Dwarven] events). Then Balin should recover more [Gandalf] events than usual.
"At Your Service!" can play Ori earlier, to reap the full cycling and skirmish potential. So it should be in Balin's Pack instead of "Careful With These!" (which will work better with the Dwarven Flute in the Blue Mountains pack, see below).
I'm not a big fan of instruments in different Packs, but maybe 2 instruments in the Blue Mountains Pack would be enough.
The problem is that you're using 2 of 6 FP slots merely for instruments. Too much, as they must not give straightforward bonuses like weapons do; instruments must have subtler mechanisms (draw cards, heal sometimes, get followers / events from deck...). Then, they'll require to synergize with some other [Dwarven] cards we include in order to reach a greater impact (like "At Your Service!" or "Careful With These!"). Which requires using more FP slots. So each Pack can have 1 instrument, designed to interact with its specific goals and resources.
[1] Dwarven Fiddle [Dwarven] (Balin's Pack)
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf, you may heal a [Dwarven] companion (limit 1 per turn).
Fellowship: Exert bearer to take into hand a fellowship or skirmish [Dwarven] event from your draw deck (limit 1).
"Now for some music! Bring out the instruments!" (only 1 line available)
Heals and gets events from deck, making Balin's skill more important and also easier to use. Turns any Dwarf into a healing card (giving To Me! O My Kinsfolk! a new value!).
[1] Dwarven Flute [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] event, you may draw a card.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to play a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck (limit 1).
"The dark filled all the room, and the fire died down, and the shadows were lost, and still they played on." (2 lines)
A powerful set up tool to draw cards and play followers. Thus "Careful With These!" playing this Flute will replace the need of "At Your Service!". The easy and soon access to Óin's healing or Dori's protection will be invaluable (but Careful With These! will be necessary to get the Flute soon).
The more instruments, the better the effect. Also, both instruments share the "play a Dwarf" trigger, so they can easily synergize if they coincide in the Draft (or if a player makes them coincide in Gemp ;)). Then, To Me! O My Kinsfolk! will be a great music sheet for that "Dwarven Orchestra"! It's a real shame that PJ didn't include Thorin's Harp ("It was a beautiful golden harp, and when Thorin struck it the music began all at once, so sudden and sweet that Bilbo forgot everything else, and was !swept away into dark lands under strange moons...").
FP Objectives:
- transfer without cost for [Dwarven] followers (Bofur rarely used)."
You said that in March 14, 2016! The aid cost impairs Bofur greatly, but also Bifur and Bombur (exertions). Your versions of the instruments mention them, but that simply won't solve the problem. What we need is what you said: a way to transfer [Dwarven] followers without paying their respective aid costs.
[2] Dwarven Warhammer [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying the aid cost).
"The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells..."
A mighty (and expensive) weapon meant to promote the use of followers. The Flute has a skill to draw cards which seems superfluous by itself, but now will have a surprising importance to fuel this alternative aid cost!
I don't like Never Been So Wrong, unfortunately this card will never be used. Bilbo wins rarely his skirmishes.
You're probably right. But the idea was to show how a card might make Noble Intentions more powerful and attractive. The trigger ("each time a Dwarf exerts in a skirmish involving Bilbo...") can be used in another card, preferably something that stays on the board like a possession, perhaps a "Dwarven Handkerchief" or the "Dwarven Ponies".
(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/Themes/bluee_plus/images/bdaycake.gif)
Happy New Year my friend Enola, and everyone reading this!
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- Hobbit Game in Gemp: I got a question. Will the Smaug cards have a new culture button in the deckbuilder? Or will all be scattered? To include a "Smaug button" would make any search much easier. The button might have no culture symbol at all, the mere word "Smaug" should be enough.
There will be Mirkwood, Smaug, Spider, and Troll buttons added to the Gemp deckbuilder. I think they'll extend the bottom row of shadow cultures, though I can't say I'm certain. Regardless, it'll be a minor addition and shouldn't heckle LotR players much at all.
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- @Phallen: Good to know, thanks! Now, there are 2 cultures not mentioned: Gundabad and Dale. I guess Gundabad won't have much problem using the [Orc] Orc button. And perhaps Dale cards (the only new FP culture) will be ok using the [Gondor] Gondor button too (though those cultures weren't related actually).
Really thanks for your hard work to include this on Gemp. And Happy 25th Post (you can now edit the Wiki)!
- @Zacharr: I'm glad you like this game and still have a group of players in real life! It's been truly an honour to be allowed to help Enola in the development. Time ago he had a printable pdf file with all cards (that existed by then), but it's very outdated. It'll probably be wise to upload an updated version, but that'll probably depend on his amount of free time.
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I've been working on a card for the Blue Mountains pack, to allow 1 more [Dwarven] follower to be in play (circumventing the Orkish Marauder). The point is that only 3 [Dwarven] followers limits too much your options and enhancements on companions. Also, having now an alternative aid cost to attach followers (like that Dwarven Warhammer above) will reduce the cons of some otherwise unused followers (unpopular ones like Bofur and Bombur will get a new value), but that will only matter if the Marauder isn't punishing the Company...
[2] •Dwarven Ponies [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Support Area
At the end of the shadow phase, you may play a [Dwarven] follower from hand.
Fellowship or Regroup: Return a [Dwarven] follower in play to your hand.
So you keep the number of followers below 4 in fellowship, and at the end of shadow phase you play a 4th follower. The Marauder will never trigger that way!
3 spare lines, for lore text or for another skill. The "Noble Intentions trigger" may be used then here, perhaps something like "Each time a Dwarf exerts during a skirmish involving Bilbo, heal Bilbo". If that skill is added, this card needs to be unique; if not, this card can be non-unique, to allow 1 more follower per copy in play.
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@Durin's Heir: Thanks for the quick reply. However long it takes is however long it takes of course :)
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- @Phallen: Good to know, thanks! Now, there are 2 cultures not mentioned: Gundabad and Dale. I guess Gundabad won't have much problem using the [Orc] Orc button. And perhaps Dale cards (the only new FP culture) will be ok using the [Gondor] Gondor button too (though those cultures weren't related actually).
Really thanks for your hard work to include this on Gemp. And Happy 25th Post (you can now edit the Wiki)!
Oops, Dale and Gundabad will have their own buttons as well, I'd just forgotten about them to mention it. I think everything in The Hobbit will function like LotR in the deckbuilder. The new keywords Burglar and Wise can be used for filtering, and the different releases will have their own selection in the drop-down menu. If I've forgotten anything, I'll add it after MarcinS uploads the changes and we'll just wait for them to go through. Again, I haven't finished The Short Rest in its entirety (namely the Spider culture isn't present, but a few tricky cards here and there are also missing), but the initial release should have enough to allow The Hobbit to be fun, and variation between decks.
And thank you! Of course, now that I've hit 25, I haven't had time to look over or edit any of the articles. At least now I can!
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So, tl;dr: Would you ever considering posting the image files of all your Hobbit cards on your website? [-o<
Regardless, love the work! :)
Thanks a lot. Btw, all Hobbit cards are available here (it's the current version of the cards): http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Download.html
[1] •Ori's Slingshot [Dwarven] (Balin's Pack)
Possession • Support Area
Each time you attach Ori, you may place up to 2 [Dwarven] cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand to make a minion strength -1.
Ori's weapon often hurted the focus of his foes.
Too weak and slow, I prefer a card with a better effect (I change "minion" for "Orc").
[1] •Ori's Slighshot [Dwarven]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Archery: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to wound an Orc once (or twice if the [Dwarven] follower is Ori).
Ori's weapon often hurted the focus of his foes.
[1] Dwarven Fiddle [Dwarven] (Balin's Pack)
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf, you may heal a [Dwarven] companion (limit 1 per turn).
Fellowship: Exert bearer to take into hand a fellowship or skirmish [Dwarven] event from your draw deck (limit 1).
"Now for some music! Bring out the instruments!" (only 1 line available)
[1] Dwarven Flute [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Instrument
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Each time you play a Dwarf or a [Dwarven] event, you may draw a card.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to play a [Dwarven] follower from your draw deck (limit 1).
"The dark filled all the room, and the fire died down, and the shadows were lost, and still they played on." (2 lines)
I'm not a big fan of instruments in the packs, sorry :(.
[2] Dwarven Warhammer [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying the aid cost).
"The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells..."
Ok for a new weapon. The text might change soon.
[2] Dwarven Warhammer [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
Maneuver: Discard 2 cards from hand to attach a [Dwarven] follower from your support area to a companion (without paying the aid cost).
"The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells..."
[2] •Dwarven Ponies [Dwarven] (Blue Mountains Pack)
Possession • Support Area
At the end of the shadow phase, you may play a [Dwarven] follower from hand.
Fellowship or Regroup: Return a [Dwarven] follower in play to your hand.
I don't like it. The FP player doesn't draw enough [Dwarven] followers in order to have a direct impact on the game, even to avoid Orkish Marauder. I don't have ideas yet to change it.
I update the first post of this topic.
Thanks Phallen for your amazing work, I hope we will see it soon :D.
Thanks! Happy New Year for you too (and also Phallen)!!! I hope you health will be better in 2017 (In France , we say "Bonne année et bonne santé"=Happy New Year and stay healthy.
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(Ori's Slingshot) Too weak and slow, I prefer a card with a better effect (I change "minion" for "Orc").
Not weak at all. -1 or -2 str to a minion is often all you need to win a skirmish (or to not be overwhelmed), and being able to do so in any skirmish that needs it changes the game. It's like Elven Sword, but for all companions. Alike the Sword provides a strong cycling engine, but unlike it Ori draws cards to fuel the skirmish/cycling skill. Drawing also increases the chances of having pumps or maneuver events. Also, the Elven Sword makes you ponder whether to discard your Shadow cards or not (which slows down the game), but this won't touch them and thus will be much faster.
If you still think it's weak, the card has 1 spare line (besides the lore text) so we can change or add something:
- Ori might draw 1 or 2 additional cards to have more fuel and cycling.
- The skirmish skill might use any FP card instead of [Dwarven] only.
- Even a line as simple as this: "Ori's bearer is strength +1"...
I'm not a big fan of instruments in the packs, sorry :(.
Each instrument will use only 1 FP slot, out of 6. That slot can instead be used for a fellowship event, but unlike events these instruments remain in play. The key is to note that these 2 [Dwarven] Packs will have a strong follower play, stronger than anything seen before in the Hobbit Game. Then they'll need strong set up tricks to play those followers. The instruments I proposed will make combos that work like Simbelmyne or AWINL, but remaining in play:
- Careful With These! plays the Dwarven Fiddle, which in turn plays a [Dwarven] follower. Similar to Simbelmyne.
- Dwarven Fiddle gets At Your Service!, which in turn plays a [Dwarven] follower. Similar to (Decipher's) AWINL.
One card plays the other, to play a Dwarf follower. Then each follower multiplies his playing chances by 3! But unlike Simbelmyne / AWINL, the engine remains on the board. Gandalf plays 1 Dwarf companion per turn, and these combos will do the same with Dwarf followers. Finally, each instrument has another utility than playing followers: the Flute draws tons of cards, while the Fiddle can get pumps and sometimes heal.
"'Now for some music!' said Thorin. 'Bring out the instruments!'"
(Dwarven Warhammer) Ok for a new weapon. The text might change soon.
Great! If you remove that skill from the Warhammer, please include it in another [Dwarven] card as Bofur & others will need it (and it was you who asked for it! ;)) (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg91700.html#msg91700). Besides, the Archery shadows will make arrows rain, so a cheap way of transferring Bofur will replace the need of shields in the Blue Mountains pack.
I don't like it (Dwarven Ponies). The FP player doesn't draw enough [Dwarven] followers in order to have a direct impact on the game, even to avoid Orkish Marauder. I don't have ideas yet to change it.
Ok, it's only a prototype by now. There's 3 free lines to add something not dependant on followers. Like "at the start of your turn, you may draw a card", or somehting to make Noble Intentions better: "Each time a Dwarf exerts in a skirmish involving Bilbo, heal a companion" (Gloin helps anyone exhausted, and Noble Intentions loses its cost).
But your experience is based on the previous Supplementary packs. There was no way to play followers directly from deck, except for 2 cards in all that lot (King Under the Mountain and Thrór's Heirlooms), and Bilbo's Kitchen. But now 2 new Supplementary packs will be built around followers, and then will require strong set up tools for that purpose (like the instruments above). Then, followers will not need to be played when drawn, but mainly will be played from deck by those tools.
The safe limit of 3 will be reached soon, and will limit a lot the skills and bonuses on companions. Bombur is mere brute force, and Bifur requires winning a fierce skirmish; with room for only 3, I think they'll be left out for others who answer more urgent needs, like Óin for wounds or Dori for overwhelming. So pushing that limit to 4 allows more combinations and enhancements, while the Warhammer's skill will make the attachment much easier.
Thanks! Happy New Year for you too (and also Phallen)!!! I hope you health will be better in 2017 (In France , we say "Bonne année et bonne santé"=Happy New Year and stay healthy.
I'm glad to hear that! Thanks! I feel this will be the year when the tide will finally turn, and my dusty papers and projects will be unchained from their long sleep.
Bonne année et bonne santé à toi aussi!
(hope Google translator isn't tricking me!)
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-1 or -2 str to a minion is often all you need to win a skirmish
Not at all and if you have a [Dwarven] card in hand, the FP player will use it to transfer Ori or Oin. I prefer a stronger card (and simpler) rather than your version.
Each instrument will use only 1 FP slot, out of 6.
If there are instruments in supplementary packs, I prefer all in the same pack. The Blue Mountains Pack could be the Thor Pack (and also be very focused on [Dwarven] followers, I think it will be the last Supplementary Pack).
One card plays the other, to play a Dwarf follower.
I don't like this mechanism. I prefer other cards then.
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Not at all and if you have a [Dwarven] card in hand, the FP player will use it to transfer Ori or Oin.
Many minions have str 8 or 9, so unarmed str 7 Dwarves (save Thorin) won't defeat them by the aid of a str +1 follower. Bilbo and Gandalf will be thankful if they can get a benefit from cards that otherwise won't use (like Battle Fury). William and Cantëa negate the use of followers, but those [Dwarven] cards that Ori and Óin won't use will be useful with the Slingshot. Finally, don't underestimate the power of cycling: drawing cards, ditching the [Dwarven] ones you don't need and recycling them in the next turn will help both your FP and Shadow to assemble faster and hit harder. That's more important than the strength help itself.
But looking at the Dwarves' Chariot, it does almost the same! :uh-huh: Then the Slingshot might absorb the Chariot's skill (while keeping the mighty recyling):
[1] •Ori's Slingshot [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
Each time you attach Ori, you may place up to 2 [Dwarven] cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand to make a minion strength -1 (or -2 if the twilight cost of that card is 0).
Ori's weapon often hurted the focus of his foes.
I still think that a small stone shouldn't kill an Orc. But if you really want to kill Orcs with projectiles, let that slingshot aside and pick that Chain Crossbow that's in the chariot! :twisted:
[2] Chain Crossbow [Dwarven]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
If bearer is Balin, he's strength +2. (to not pile more tools on Thorin)
Skirmish: If bearer is not assigned to a skirmish, exert him to wound a minion skirmishing another [Dwarven] character.
"Durin be with you, brother!"
Won't interfere in Bilbo's skirmish, but Balin can support his brother when confronting a swarm.
If there are instruments in supplementary packs, I prefer all in the same pack.
Balin's Pack will need a way to heal him, and also a way to play Ori soon, so I though about an instrument to cover both needs. The Blue Mountains Pack too needs a follower-playing card, and probably a strong way to draw cards (but won't rely on Ori), so the same was done there. Those fellowship-phase tasks (heal, draw, get followers/events) should be portrayed well by Musical Instruments, inviting the Dwarven brotherhood to gather and share stories. That's the concept behind. And since each of those packs has its own fellowship-phase tasks, makes sense that each pack should have its own instrument.
Also the instruments need an event to work better AND to have a strong interaction with Balin's skill. 2 Instruments + 1 event = half the Pack. That's another reason why I believe they are better separated. And Balin's pack will gain a lot in flavor, by having an instrument it will have a much warmer feeling.
The Blue Mountains Pack could be the Thror Pack (and also be very focused on [Dwarven] followers, I think it will be the last Supplementary Pack).
I wouldn't change "Blue Mountains pack" to "Thrór pack." The "Blue Mountains" concept is about exiles surviving and labouring in anything they can while keeping their pride, but Thrór is related to either his glory days or his present suffering when remembering them. If you want to change the name, "Exiles pack" seems better to me.
I don't like this mechanism. I prefer other cards then.
We can think on something different, I have no problem. But the "event + instrument" combos have other utilities than only playing followers:
- Dwarven Fiddle can grab At Your Service! (to play a follower/companion), but can also get another event like To Me! O My Kinsfolk! or a pump.
- Careful With These! can play Dwarven Flute (to play followers), but Careful With These! can play another possession like the Warhammer.
So it's not like having the same usefulness of Simbelmyne, but spending twice the room in the deck. Each part has its own potentials and benefits. And one part remains on the board.
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Sorry for the delay.
I'm focused on the Shadow Pack 3, trying to test the Swarm Pack 3.
I'm a worried about the Sauron culture in the Swarm Pack 3, it's far too strong with Danger Wrapped In Shadows in the Beatdown Pack 2. Maybe Gundabad culture instead of Sauron culture? Some cards will then change...
What do you think?
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Sorry for the delay.
Don't worry my friend, take your time. ;)
I'm a worried about the Sauron culture in the Swarm Pack 3, it's far too strong with Danger Wrapped In Shadows in the Beatdown Pack 2. Maybe Gundabad culture instead of Sauron culture? Some cards will then change...
What do you think?
I firmly disagree to change it to Gundabad. They already have 2 Packs, while Sauron has only 1. Also they have the Main deck, and that universal availability makes any [Gundabad] version of Hidden or Rise of the Necromancer too easy to use (and draft), by ANY player. Rewording all cards will be tricky, and will contain hidden abuses probably... So the interaction with the [Sauron] Beatdown pack must be balanced, NOT erased.
Both packs use different resources, and the costs aren't heavy enough to force players to focus on one or the other. So they don't interrupt each other. That's the main problem, in my opinion. ([Sauron] Beatdown uses twilight, while [Sauron] Swarm uses cards in hand.) Then, I see 2 clear options: 1) change the [Sauron] Swarm pack to use the twilight resource, so its limitation will stop OP combos; or 2) keep the discard cost but make it more strenuous, so that the deck must be built around that cost to get the full potential. I prefer #2.
- Dark Sorcery: We can increase the cost to "discard 3 cards" from hand (to make it much less viable for the [Sauron] Beatdown pack, without many Ambushers/Sentinels), or replace the discarding cost with a twilight cost: "Maneuver: Exert an Orc and remove [3] to play a Shadow condition from your discard pile" (which stacks with Sauron and Danger Wrapped's high cost). I prefer discarding 3, since it taxes only the Beatdown pack, not impeding the Swarm pack to do its job.
- Rise of the Necromancer: The replay loop with Danger Wrapped can be troublesome. So you can add this text to Rise's shadow skill: "End your Shadow phase." (just like Tol Brandir) That blocks Rise from playing Danger in order to play more [Sauron] minions/conditions. You can still use Rise to play [Sauron] conditions, but as the phase ends Danger Wrapped ([Sauron] Beatdown) won't play more cards, while Hidden and Dark Sorcery ([Sauron] Swarm) will still be able to.
- Malevolent Orc: I guess good part of the problem comes from being able to play several Orcs with only 1x Hidden. I really like your idea of playing [Sauron] conditions instead of Orcs, but the cost "remove [2]" destroys the swarming potential of the [Sauron] Swarm pack (Hidden = [3]!). I'd rather have a fixed discard cost like "discard 2 cards" or "discard a Shadow card" from hand, to make it depend on the Ambusher/Sentinel when building a swarm. That way the "Old Tomnoddy effect" will still remain, but with a fixed discarding cost for each Malevolent Orc played that way. Which shouldn't be sustainable for the [Sauron] Beatdown shadow.
Now, what about [Wraith] minions? The old Malevolent Orc was able to replay them (somewhat like a mightier Morgul Skulker). Perhaps Hidden might play "an Orc or a [Wraith] minion" from discard pile. Hidden requires to spot a [Sauron] card (which cripples its use in Nazgul-only shadows).
Hope this helps.
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I know you're not focused now on this, so answer later if you wish. But this would be my version of the Dwarves' Chariot (replacing the Chain Crossbow):
[2] •Dwarven War Chariot [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
Balin is strength +1 and damage +1.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to wound a minion skirmishing a [Dwarven] character (except if underground).
Regroup: Play from your hand a [Dwarven] follower or a [Dwarven] fellowship event.
"I'm too old for this!"
Makes Balin a killing machine. It should absorb your version of the Slingshot (as has a wounding skill with the exact same cost). Since it's senseless to drive it on a cave or tunnel, it can't wound Smaug (at site 8 at least).
As a wagon for the Company, allows you to reload the discarded followers during regroup, from hand or from discard with To Me! O My Kinsfolk! All aboard!
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I think Danger Wrapped In Shadows (playing any [Sauron] card from the draw deck or taking back all [Sauron] cards) will always be very helpful for any kind of [Sauron] Shadows in the SP3. It's the main problem :(. We can:
- change the [Sauron] swarm for another Gundabad Shadow
- make a [Sauron] Shadow in the BP3 and move either the Mirkwood or Corrupted Men Shadow in the SP3. But then the [Sauron] Shadow should be a Beatdown Shadow.
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I think Danger Wrapped In Shadows (playing any [Sauron] card from the draw deck or taking back all [Sauron] cards) will always be very helpful for any kind of [Sauron] Shadows in the SP3. It's the main problem :(.
[Sauron] Swarm needs a lot of minions, while [Sauron] Swarm needs a lot of twilight. Yes, Danger Wrapped In Shadows can replay / search for any [Sauron] card, but only 1 per site, by paying [2] and only during the Shadow phase. Not limitless, nor unexpensive. If Rise of the Necromancer gets the "Tol Brandir" text, all copies of Danger Wrapped in Shadows recovered with it (or with any new [Sauron] condition) won't have enough time to be used in that same site. Which trims that loop's power a lot.
Also, keep in mind Danger Wrapped costs [2], Dark Sorcery [2], Rise [1], Malevolent Orc [3] (+ [1] if played by Hidden). Using Danger Wrapped needs [2] more. So yes, you can regenerate your support area over and over again, but definitely NOT for free, and you'll need twilight to play Orcs. Each turn you don't strike the Company is a turn you give them to set up, and a good set up is perhaps the worst enemy for a swarm. And removing [2] per Orc (per copy of Danger) to build a swarm is too unefficient to be reliable (is both predictable and TOO expensive).
I believe Danger Wrapped isn't a real problem with this [Sauron] Swarm shadow... even "Rise + Dark Sorcery" in play and 2x Hidden in discard pile can replace it: a) Rise is spent to recover 2x Hidden, b) Dark Sorcery recovers Rise, c) 2x Hidden are spent for 2 Orcs. I'm not worried at all (as long as we add tweaks to balance it, like that "Tol Brandir" text).
With all that in mind, Malevolent Orc worries me much more since it can replay during the mighty Shadow phase a copy of Rise/Danger Wrapped, AND can be played by the universal machinery of Host of Thousands / Hatred Rekindled during that aforementioned phase. So I'm doubting about my proposal for Malevolent Orc's skill.
- change the [Sauron] swarm for another Gundabad Shadow
- make a [Sauron] Shadow in the BP3 and move either the Mirkwood or Corrupted Men Shadow in the SP3. But then the [Sauron] Shadow should be a Beatdown Shadow.
- Gundabad has 1 Swarm & 1 Beatdown packs, so they can coincide. Bolg Commander and Orc Veteran don't lose anything by being mounted, and in case Thorin is dead (Threatening Warg's task), even Orc Pursuer and the mighty Orc Army can use the wounding skill when mounted (if on a War-warg). That's truly powerful!
- Corrupted Men lack any sense as a Swarm shadow, lorewise. The same can be said about Mirkwood Elves.
So those aren't good options to me. Compare the "War pack + Bolg's Army" combo above, with the potential of Danger Wrapped in Shadows + Rise / Dark Sorcery / [Sauron] Orcs... seems less threatening in my opinion.
But if you still want another Gundabad Swarm pack, I'd much rather have Warg minions than more Orcs.
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I try something new. Sauron swarm is now based on [Sauron] events, there will be less interactions with Danger Wrapped In Shadows then.
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New cards on the first post for the [Sauron] swarm in the Beatdown Pack 3.
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I'm sorry for this very long absence :(. I've been struggling lately with too many tasks and problems for my scarce vitality to cope with. But I'm alive and well after all, so here it goes...
* Sauron Swarm shadow
I noticed this Shadow may have a hard time against Dale allies, they'll be both fighting and shooting so you'll need to preserve vitality against arrows at the same time you'll need more minions on the board to overwhelm key companions. That will punish the skills that need exertions, which are key to get a swarmng force.
- Orc Ambusher: Seems right! You point right when including allies as the foes of Dol Guldur. Might be "Wise characters" instead, but "allies" provides a more stable effect (and is thus also easier to playtest). :up:
- Malevolent Orc: Great idea! The Orc replaying engine will make this Orc a dangerous tool to retrieve pumps and other tricks. :up:
- Orc Sentinel: Seems ok. But since he costs twice the Ambusher, I'd raise his strength to 7.
- Hidden: I don't think it should refer to [Dwarven] followers. The Dol Guldur plot was about Sauron unfurling a mighty army to sweep the northern Middle-earth, so this Pack should be against allies (and that White Council which disrupted his plans), not against a band of vengeful travellers moving in search of glory.
So I'd change the "attached [Dwarven] follower" to "a Wise character which may participate in skirmishes." Then discarding Gandalf at site 5 will be far more important, Radagast's home site will give him some advantage and cards like Former Herald and Skillful Negociator will weaken Sauron's plans.
The focus will then move to discard/kill/stack Gandalf, while Narzug will deal with fighting Wise allies. The link with [Dwarven] followers and To Me! O My Kinsfolk! will remain with 2 versions of Gandalf (Leader of Dwarves and Friend of Thorin; LoD will give twilight to play more or bigger Orcs with Hidden). That's much more consistent with the books and films (and pairs better with the [Sauron] and [Wraith] Beatdown packs, and with Jail in the Dol Guldur pack).
(0) Hidden [Sauron]
Event • Assignment
Spot a [Sauron] minion to play an Orc (or 2 Orcs if you cannot spot a Wise character which may participate in skirmishes) from your discard pile.
"Wait, Gandalf! What if it's a trap?!"
- Rise of the Necromancer: The second effect seems very good, but the first worries me a bit. About events, getting Hidden into hand is good, but Dark Sorcery is just too powerful (with its current low cost). On the other hand, non-event cards will be pretty useless until the next shadow phase, 'cause you cannot play them immediatly. At site 9 that'll become more problematic, as you won't have a next site to play minions/conditions, and also your deck will have less Shadow cards to search for.
So I'd give a mecanism to play that non-event card you just got from deck: "You may play that card, or place up to 2 Orcs from your discard pile into your draw deck." That way this "Rise of the Necromancer" will be able to play the Necromancer himself, or a servant like an Orc or Nazgul. Being at the maneuver phase limits some otherwise dangerous combos, like using Danger Wrapped in Shadow's shadow skill immediatly.
(0) Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Spot a [Sauron] minion to take a Shadow card from your draw deck into hand. You may play that card, or place up to 2 Orcs from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
Also, I strongly recommend increasing the cost of Dark Sorcery, or limit its mighty effect.
- Dark Sorcery: I like the skill a lot, has a really great flavor. But is simply too powerful for such a low cost, moreover with other [Sauron] cards retrieving it over and over again to peel the whole Company. [Dwarven] followers and [Dwarven] artifacts have ways to cope with that (TM! OMK! & Thorin respectively), but there's nothing to return [Dwarven] possessions and [Gandalf] or [Shire] things like Sting, Glamdring or Burglar's Contract. So the effect will be permanent with those cards, and there's no way to prevent it. That's especially worrisome with Sting!
So I'd raise the twilight cost to [2], to prevent using freely many copies provided by Malevolent Orc / Rise of the Necromancer. It should also have an alternative cost, like "The Free Peoples player may exert THAT companion twice to prevent this." That can provide some beatdown power to remove defenders (moreover if you play a surprise pump). May be very important to erase Gandalf sooner. And gives a good flavor of two forces struggling each other ;).
[2] Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Event • Skirmish
Spot a [Sauron] minion to discard a card (except a Ring) borne by a companion it is skirmishing. The Free Peoples player may exert that companion twice to prevent this."
"These are dark spells... old and full of hate."
Hope this helps.
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On other subject, I've been working on a different version of Flash-flames. "Wound a minion X times" is totally obscene :evil: (reveal a card of [5] or more = Smaug is dead), that needs to be changed...
[2] Flash-flames [Dwarven]
Possession
Bearer must be Balin.
Skirmish: Discard this possession and spot a minion to discard the top card of any draw deck. If that card's twilight cost is lower than that minion's, make it strength -3; otherwise, wound it twice.
"Where is the sulfur?"
Now does some discard on any deck. "Reveal a random card" from opponent's hand is useless if he/she has no hand at all (quite easy with Hatred Rekindled!), and "reveal the top card of a deck" will get you the same value if 2 or more bombs are used in a row. But "discard the top card of any draw deck" is strongly random and extremely hard to block.
Obviously, the ditched card is to get a random value. I changed it to wound a minion twice (if the bomb hits the mark) or make it strength -3 (if fails, the bomb should still provide a distraction). No matter what value you get, you'll still get benefits. The criterion is the minion's twilight cost, so will be much easier to hit a Goblin Runner than a champion like a Nazgul or Azog; Smaug will be almost impossible to wound, but you'll still reap some advantage.
What do you think?
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Thank a lot for your comments, even with a delay ;).
Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Hidden: The game seems now balanced between different versions of Gandalf, but the Leader of the Company seems still the best. I prefer to keep it with [Dwarven] followers and the use of TMOMK, it's more about the balance of the game than the lore (but Thrain is a [Dwarven] follower and is the first part of the Dol Guldur fight).
- Rise of the Necromancer: I change it, seems easier to play now.
- Dark Sorcery: I change it, the previous version was too strong with Azog [Sauron]...
Balin Pack
- Flash-flames The idea of this cards is also to counter Sauron. Sure, Smaug could be dead this way, but there aren't many cards which costs [5] or more and are still in the Shadow player's hand during the assignment phase.
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You're welcome my friend! It makes my days brighter!
Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Hidden: Ok, seems fair. And Thráin can justify the lore part, as you say. :up: ;)
- Rise of the Necromancer: Seems good. I'd like it better if played "an Orc or [Wraith] minion" from deck ;). The word "reshuffle" is right but is almost never used alone (without "that/your draw deck"), only Denethor LoMT and Undead of Angmar are worded that loose way.
- Dark Sorcery: How many [Gandalf] cards will be in hand when you play this? I know, like Too Great and Terrible, but in my experience that card can only be countered well by decks dedicated mostly to Gandalf (or Ents). That simply cannot happen in the Hobbit Game! And is extremely important to counter it, since Malevolent Orc will be retrieving this over and over. "1 [Gandalf] card + another cost" seems better to me, like "the FP player may exert a Wizard and discard a [Gandalf] card from hand" to prevent this. Not Wise elves or [Elven] cards, only Wizards and wizardy. Then the Wizard and White Council packs will be in a better shape against Sauron. The Elrond pack might have 1 or 2 [Gandalf] cards (or an [Elven] card to retrieve a [Gandalf] event).
"Discard a [Sauron] Orc" makes little sense to me, since that will make the defender win the skirmish automatically (unless swarmed). "Discard Sauron" is even worse! He's the master of black magic, why immolate himself? But "wound a [Sauron] minion" should be better, that can still be paid by an exhausted Orc, and if not exhausted the Orc's threat will remain in the skirmish. And has a flavor thing too: "you hate that guy 'till the point you hurt yourself only to see him fall"... dark spells full of hatred.
"...but I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
When I hear that whistle blowing, I hang my head and cry."
[1] Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Event • Skirmish
Wound a [Sauron] minion to discard a card (except a Ring) borne by a companion it is skirmishing. The Free Peoples player may exert a Wizard and discard a [Gandalf] card from hand to prevent this.
"These are dark spells... old and full of hate."
A last thing. Should this cost [2] to prevent playing 2 retrieved copies in a row over and over, without an obstructive cost?
Balin Pack
- Flash-flames: My version can try to counter Sauron after assignment. You can try to kill a vitality 2 or 1 Orc/Nazgul sent to kill a Dwarf / Gandalf, and if fails you'll reduce its strength so he has better chances of beating the odds and survive. That can be paired with other ways of wounding (Kili, Dawn Take You All; my version of the Chariot / your version of the Slingshot) or strength reduction (Take Up Arms, Slingshot / Chariot again). We agree about the Slingshot and the Chariot that one must wound and the other must reduce a minion's strength, that's clear. My proposal for the Flash-flames does both (although randomness decides what course will take) so can be helped by those 2 tools.
If you keep the assignment idea, at least add a limit because makes no sense to knock Smaug down with a single gunpowder bomb (and there's already a lot of direct wounding). Limit +2 will be good I think, then one bomb can reduce Sauron's assignment power to one try. Also, as said before, if your opponent has no hand (easy with Hatred Rekindled), reveal a card at random "from your opponent's hand" will be blocked; to avoid that, change it to "any player's hand."
A last thing: I'd change "Bearer must be Balin" to "To play, spot Balin" and turn this into a support area card, that way you'll need Balin's chemistry skills to mix the bombs, but any companion will have the skill required to toss them.
[1] Flash-flames [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
To play, spot Balin.
Assignment: Discard this possession and spot a minion to reveal a random card from any player's hand. Wound that minion X times (limit 2), where X is the twilight cost of the card revealed.
"Where's the sulfur?"
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- Rise of the Necromancer: I have to think about the [Ringwraith] minion, the text of the card is quite heavy.
- Dark Sorcery: This event must be useful with "exert a Wizard and discard a [Gandalf] card from hand" it will be too easy to prevent, moreover some [Gandalf] cards clog the hand when Gandalf is discarded. "Wound a [Sauron] minion" will make the card playable more than once in the same skirmish.
Btw, you will find here the images of the cards :
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/SwarmPack3.html
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Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Narzug: I've been thinking a bit about Narzug, and this pack provides no way to force his skill. He might be useful to counter allies like Percy, but perhaps is better to leave some FP cultures as natural strong opponents against this Shadow pack.
- Rise of the Necromancer: This little addition should be enough:
(0) Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Spot a [Sauron] minion to play an Orc or [Wraith] minion from your draw deck, then reshuffle. You may place up to 2 Orcs from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
5 lines for gametext and 2 for lore. Nazguls feel comfortable in the discard pile, so you don't need to add them to the recycling part.
- Dark Sorcery: Totally agree, must be useful. But its power to erase Sting/Glamdring must be counterable too (moreover with Malevolent Orc retrieving it so easily). Look it this way: if is countered X times, will still be useful to exert X Wizards and force the discard of X powerful [Gandalf] tricks. But TGaT's "discard 2 [Gandalf] cards from hand" is really hard to pay, I know it by fact. It's because of this: to be able to discard 2 [Gandalf] cards, you need to have them first and that means (without any drawing engine) 25+% of your hand, which is really high. Then you must retain 2, abstaining yourself from playing them immediatly (therefore items/allies/conditions can seldom help). And that's to counter 1 copy only, but sometimes you're struck by 2 in a row... which is what Malevolent Orc will do here.
I play in FOTR block a [Gandalf] + [Dwarven] deck comprised of 38/38 cards. 13 of them are [Gandalf] (a bit more than 1/3). It also has a very mighty FP drawing engine, which draws systematically 3 to 5 cards before moving (the Grey Pilgrim + Book of Mazarbul + Ottar). Still, my experience tells me that is extremely rare to have 2+ [Gandalf] cards in the right time to counter TGaT. That's because 5 of those 13 are immediatly played when drawn (items/allies), and 1 more is the copy of Gandalf that TGaT tries to wound. So only 7 cards can try to counter TGaT. Is insufficient, even with those 3 or 5 cards extending my hand; that is the equivalent of a 14,2% or 16,7% ratio respectively for a 8-cards hand. Far from a real !menace to TGaT.
Things are much worse in the Hobbit Game. The Main deck provides 6 [Gandalf] cards; the FP pack has 8 more (per 2 players), of which you'll probably draft 5 or 6 if you focus on Gandalf. So then you'll have around 11 or 12 [Gandalf] cards in deck if you include every [Gandalf] card you got. But Gandalf, Glamdring and AWINL are played immediatly, so discount 3 or 4. That's 7 to 9, for a deck of 60 minimum (less those 3 or 4 cards). Without a drawing engine. That's 12,3% to 16,1%, in the happiest of the cases. But decks will rarely be 30/30, and you won't be always drafting all [Gandalf] cards in sight. All the necessary support for Dwarves and Bilbo will take its toll against the [Gandalf] ratio. You'll note it when playtesting...
The Wizard Pack (15 [Gandalf] cards) and White Council Pack (10 [Gandalf] cards) can enrich the pool. But only 4 in each are events, all the rest is immediatly played after being drawn. Extra copies of unique cards can help to raise that number a bit, but not too much. Gwaihir will be consuming [Gandalf] cards... All in all, even in those specialized cases the cost is too high, and those necessary [Dwarven] and [Shire] cards in deck will be lowering the [Gandalf] ratio.
So I'd lower that towering cost to something affordable. And to balance that lower counter cost, a lower playing cost like "wound a [Sauron] minion." And raise copies to 3x, so it can appear early enough; then Malevolent Orc's recovering effect will be much more stable. The previous version of Rise of the Necromancer could grab Dark Sorcery sooner, but we cannot rely on it anymore.
Balin Pack
- Flash-flames You still don't say a word about my latest thoughts on this.
I should be commenting in the next days about the new changes in the Goblin-town Archery shadow, and other Supplementary packs. I hope so, but who knows for sure.
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- Narzug: I've been thinking a bit about Narzug, and this pack provides no way to force his skill. He might be useful to counter allies like Percy, but perhaps is better to leave some FP cultures as natural strong opponents against this Shadow pack.
Since his archer ability will be used in the Goblin archery Shadow, I don't think it's necessary to add it.
- Rise of the Necromancer: In order to avoid the "an Orc or [Wraith] minion" which is too long (it's in the Sauron's text, but Sauron is in the pack with the [Ringwraith] minions, not Rise of the Necromancer), I propose only a minion.
(0) Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Exert a [Sauron] minion to play a minion from your draw deck, then reshuffle. You may place up to 2 Orcs from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
- Dark Sorcery: "wound a [Sauron] minion" doesn't resolve the problem of [Sauron] Azog...
- Flash-flames: I'm much more focused on the Shadow Pack 3 now. I will answer later.
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- Narzug: Alright. Also, you can direct the arrows shot by Dale men to him to trigger his skill. :up:
- Rise of the Necromancer: It looks too similar to Fimbul :(. He's more expensive ([2] and self-discards, vs an exertion) and this event recovers 2 Orcs to deck. But your original event version was able to take a Shadow event from deck, and that synergizes strongly with Malevolent Orc to make Shadow events a mightier and more stable resource. Malevolent Orc repeats any event you played/discarded, but events that haven't shown up are far from his reach, thus events with few copies will behave very differently in different games (depending on if you get them soon or late). Having a resource to get them directly from deck will fix that unstability (btw, playtesting will be much easier! :D)...
(0) Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Maneuver
Spot a [Sauron] minion to play a minion (or take a Shadow event into hand) from your draw deck, then reshuffle. You may place up to 2 Orcs from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
Rise of the Necromancer to start the engine, and Malevolent Orc to keep the wheels rolling...
- Dark Sorcery: True. Perhaps "exert a [Sauron] minion" will be better; then Battle of Azanulbizar, Dawn Take You All or Kili twice will stop [Sauron] Azog. Exhausted [Sauron] Orcs would be assigned to companions the FP player wants to protect from Dark Sorcery. Given such increase in cost, a twilight cost of (0). And a moderate or expensive prevention cost (BUT NOT Too Great and Terrible's, it's almost impossible to pay!), like "the FP player may exert that companion twice"; the minion's vitality will make impossible for anyone but [Sauron] Azog, [Sauron] Bolg and Sauron himself to play more than one single copy (and will stop exhausted [Sauron] minions from playing any)...
(0) Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Event • Skirmish
Exert a [Sauron] minion to discard a card (except a Ring) borne by a character it is skirmishing. The Free Peoples player may exert that character twice to prevent this.
"These are dark spells... old and full of hate."
Grind (similar to Mordor's Strength), or discard a card borne. The grind effect can be supported by !Anger (sponsored by Malevolent Orc ;)), to threaten to get an easy kill; knowing that pump is in hand (or fearing it might be), the FP player will often prefer to surrender that card. Also, changed "companion" to "character" to make fighting allies eligible targets too.
Now, these [Sauron] Orcs have too little vitality, so I would not recommend to make both Dark Sorcery and Rise of the Necromancer need to "exert a [Sauron] minion." So Rise must either "exert an Orc," or cost [1] or [2] and "spot a [Sauron] minion."
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I change the text of the cards in the first post (the card images are not always updated).
Dark Sorcery is far different now. I prefer to keep Rise of the Necromancer without any "and or "or" conditions...
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10 days without posting anything... :(
* Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Dark Sorcery: Interesting! I like it, but change "spot" for "exert" to give a way of trying to counter (Battle of Azanulbizar, and perhaps Burning Fir Cones). :up:
- Rise of the Necromancer: I like the effect... but during assignment! :twisted: That way, this event won't take the FP player by surprise (Anger already does that), and he/she won't be killing your fuel-Orcs in skirmishes. A single defender, facing a !hopeless fate. EDIT: That's retarded. Sorry.
"...but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm."
What I dislike is the prevention cost. "2 Dwarf companions" is simply too much... perhaps "2 Dwarves," which includes both followers and companions? Paired with Yazneg and Dark Sorcery, you'll either discard every [Dwarven] follower, or force the FP player to discard Dwarf companions to prevent it.
[1] Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Assignment
Discard any number of your Orcs from play to make a [Sauron] minion fierce and strength +3 until the regroup phase for each Orc discarded. The Free Peoples player may discard 2 Dwarves to prevent this.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
It has another utility: discard 0 Orcs = make a [Sauron] minion fierce.
* Goblin Archery Shadow
I think you're pouring too many unpreventable wounding cards into this Shadow. It's the same problem of Bolg's Army (before changing into Regroup wounding): the only available-to-all ways to avoid the pre-skirmish wounding are Kili, Battle of Azanulbizar and Bofur (and only Bofur doesn't exchange wounds for wounds). Later in skirmish these archers can try to wound again, which is alright but as long as their strength/cost ratio, their pumps and their skills are all low or moderate. But that isn't the case. To counter companion replacing and Óin there's Not At Home and Yazneg, so only Elrond will be there consistently to mop up a small part of that wound token flooding...
The original idea I proposed was a rabble of very cheap archers with good strength but a low precision, whose arrows could then be avoided by alternative costs the FP player may pay. Some costs (like doubts) would then be used by the Shadow player for an increased skirmish potential. But this Shadow is quite the opposite: more and more arrows, not less. While keeping the high skirmish potential and low cost! And now has wound prevention, but not balanced by a decrease in the aforementioned factors... >:( I just don't like the way this will behave in playtestings. :-k
- Great Goblin's Sceptre: I don't like the idea of a unique weapon with specific bearers in a Swarm pack; it goes against the nature of a rabble of generic minions carrying generic tools (if any). Besides, the pack already has a weapon, and thus both will compete for the Footman's skill: you won't have regularly enough Footmen and twilight to play both tools consistently. Thus, putting a key skill on the Sceptre will force your Footmen to focus on keeping it in play, leaving only the possible lefotvers to play your Bows. Those combos work better in Beatdown shadows (more tools means less resources in hand to play minions).
I'd much rather keep the Bonebreaker (remains on the board). But I like the Sceptre's protective skill; it'd work wonders if was put directly on the Great Goblin. That way he'd protect archers when shooting and fighting, and then the Bonebreaker would be there to harvest any survivor for more wounding. Like Azog's Mace, the Sceptre might be included in a Supplementary pack.
- The Great Goblin: Totally OP, like Orc Cutthroath but without having to exert! :o And no limit at all! :evil: And unlike the Cutthroat, this guy is fierce, is extremely easy to replay, and has a tool to protect his Orc-fuel... with no Armor, Gimli's Helm or [Rohan] mounts to hinder him! >:( The expensive prevention cost (add a doubt) is far from enough to balance an ability so easy to pay and repeat. [-X No way! :cop:
I see you want to make room for the new Sceptre, by absorbing the Bonebreaker's wounding role. But would be better then to copy the original regroup skill without changes (btw, he's the most able to survive). Or add a "limit once" to the skirmish idea (is fierce, so can deliver 4 wounds). Or as said above, make the Great Goblin absorb the Sceptre's protective skill, and instead keep the Bonebreaker doing the wound thing. I like th latter much better:
[4] •The Great Goblin, Goblin-King [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 10 Vitality 3 Site 4
Fierce.
Each Orc archer is twilight cost -1.
Response: If an Orc archer is about to take a wound, exert the Great Goblin to prevent that wound.
"Slash them! Beat them! Bite them! Gnash them! Take them away to dark holes full of snakes..."
- !Goblin Archer Troop: Compared to Moria Archer Troop, costs 2/3 but can shoot and fight the same. So should have 2/3 of its vitality. That'd make Battle of Azanulbizar a viable counter (2 arrows for 1 exertion). Moreover, you're now including a new protection mechanism and that justifies a vitality reduction. Or else this minion will be almost unkillable (damage +2 companions are very rare... only Thorin + Orcrist, and Fili/Glóin/Dwalin + the exerting Bombur).
- Goblin Town Band: Your [Moria] archers are mightier than Decipher's: this is Goblin Marksman, but vitality +1 and can potentially shoot 1 more arrow! Also, Decipher gave the FP more shields, healing and wound prevention... so this ain't going to end up well. It also refers to Bilbo, but while the Dwarves were being whipped and chased by Goblins, Bilbo faced only the Aggresor and Gollum. I know the idea is to punish Bilbo's utility as a pin cushion, but there may be better ways:
[3] Goblin Town Band [Moria]
Minion • Orc
Strength 6 Vitality 1 Site 4
Archer.
While you can spot an exhausted companion, this minion is strength +6 and does not add to the minion archery total.
"It was dark, but not too dark for the night-eyes of Orcs..."
If chasing a slowed down exhausted guy, the Goblins of this band toss their bows and take up their knives: a str 12 archer minion, who doesn't shoot (but can still use the skills of Goblin Bow and the Sceptre/Great Goblin). That forces the FP player to distribute the wounds, which makes Bilbo can absorb max 3 arrows, makes skirmishes more dangerous, and punishes Kili's sharpshooting and Fili's protection of exhausted guys. Of course, the exhausting can happen while or after shooting, in which case this band will have both benefits (a Highlander Charge!). I believe this should be better.
- Goblin Town Archer: Crowd control. I don't like Goblins referring to Bilbo, but this one seems balanced. As far as the Goblin Town Band doesn't refer to wounds on Bilbo specifically.
If you're open to other "when you play this minion" ideas, this archer might allow you to "remove 2 doubts to play another Orc archer from your discard pile". Or "the Free Peoples player may add a doubt to discard it" (like Dunlending Renegade and Dunlending Rampager), for instant doubts to use at skirmish. Those alternatives wouldn't need 6+ companions to be useful.
As said at the beginning, the idea is to allow the FP player to reduce the minion archery total, and that'd be compensated by higher strength, better skirmish skills, and some corruption and regroup wounding potential.
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Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Rise of the Necromancer:
[1] Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Assignment
Discard any number of your Orcs from play to make a [Sauron] minion fierce and strength +3 until the regroup phase for each Orc discarded. The Free Peoples player may discard 2 Dwarves to prevent this.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
I'm not sure you understand well the strategy of the Sauron Swarm :(. Such event will be useless, a way to create a big minion and no swarm is not what a Shadow based on swarm wants... moreover the event you proposed will be easily counter by the FP player.... #-o
Goblin Archery Shadow
The Shadow has been playtested 4 times, and it seems balanced....
Btw, the skirmish of the Great Goblin is often the last skirmish, it makes great battles between Thorin and him. Some adjustments could be still required.
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* Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Rise of the Necromancer: Alright, "assignment" was very stupid :-[... (I was thinking about Sauron overwhelming 2 guys, but that's Beatdown, and would also need more copies to appear soon enough.) ](*,) Skirmish phase then. My apologies!
And yes, the prevention cost I gave was too low.. but what I dislike about "discard 2 [Dwarven] companions" is that it simply cannot be undone (unlike followers). Those valuable defenders will dissapear, there's no difference with "removed from the game" (and little with "killed"). Unlike this event, which can be repeated over and over (if not drawn too late). Besides, the effect is very variable, but the steep prevention cost is fixed. It's not proportional. Moreover, discarding followers would promote the use of To Me! O My Kinsfolk! (which is a thing you wanted). So I think this might be much better: skirmish phase, +3 str per Orc, but a variable prevention cost proportional to the effect:
[1] Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Skirmish
Discard X Orcs from play to make a [Sauron] minion strength +3 for each Orc discarded. The Free Peoples player may discard X Free Peoples cards from play (except Bilbo) to prevent this.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
The more Orcs are discarded, the harder will be to prevent. Working along with Dark Sorcery and Yazneg to peel FP resources off, the Shadow player can easily calculate how many Orcs are needed to force the FP player to discard some allies and companions (or choose to face the evil tide). And Malevolent Orc can repeat it.
* Goblin Archery Shadow
The Shadow has been playtested 4 times, and it seems balanced....
How many of those 4 were with the Sceptre protecting archers? That's very important, because makes those high vitality Goblin archers even harder to kill, and also much stronger fighters. But given its temporary nature, I believe this Sceptre will behave like The Pale Blade: a powerful temporary boost for the turn, but never the center of the Shadow. Played if you have it in hand. A permanent tool would be better for the Shadow (and easier to playtest).
The minimum resources you need to recover the Sceptre (with full effect) use [8]: [4] the Great Goblin + [3] Goblin Footman + [1] the Sceptre itself. 2 cards in hand and [8], and still NOT A SINGLE ARCHER to use that protection. So it won't work well as a temporary thing, which needs to be replayed over and over. You can't base your Shadow on such an expensive combo. Then, if your Shadow is not based on it, will be only a fancy temporary addition. Thus, the protection effect will be equally unstable. And that protection (stable or unstable) must be balanced with the (stable) attributes of Goblin archers (mainly their high vitality).
You can place the protection skill directly on the Great Goblin, then the protective effect will need only 1 card and [4] (and natural Archers would get a cost reduction!). That's much more stable, it'd make that protection a common influence for this Shadow. Therefore, easier to balance with the base attributes of generic Archers. Using the same resources as the example above ([8] and 2 cards), the Footman would then recover a Goblin Bow for himself and be an archer, getting the Great Goblin's protection.
The Sceptre can instead be a big weapon (with skills like Ugluk's Sword, Sword of Dol Guldur or Staff of Saruman); it might even carry the Great Goblin's current skill that "makes great battles between Thorin and him." Or its slots used by a support area card like the Bonebreaker. Or even a self-replayable Sceptre (like Dissension or If He Loses); but the Footman's replay role shouldn't be deviated from recovering the Goblin Bows.
Balin's Pack has only a Bridging Troll. There's a free slot for another Shadow card. Perhaps the Goblin Bonebreaker (a modified verison) will fit well there. Or the Sceptre, if the Bonebreaker is kept in the Swarm Pack 3.
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I prefer a fix high cost for the prevention, the FP player may not know the card and must have a way to save Bilbo at high cost.
I switch the abilities between the Sceptre and the Great Goblin.
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- Rise of the Necromancer: Alright, a fixed cost. But destroying 2 Dwarf companions seems too much to me (besides being wrong lorewise). Perhaps something heavy like "add 3 doubts to prevent this," which is cumulative but not impossible to reverse, and makes very perilous to wear The One Ring (2 doubts for +2 strength isn't anymore a safe resource). Wearing The One in the Necromancer's Lair becomes a bad idea!
- The Great Goblin: Seems well. :up: The protective effect will now be more common, and will increase the power of vitality and archery (Archer Troop and Band are already hard to kill before shooting, will be tougher with the protection). So those factors might need revision during (or before) playtests.
- The Sceptre: Looks good, but has a card room problem: needs 8 lines. The passive skill (functional) uses 2 lines, and the loretext (aesthetic) 1, so one or the other must be removed. The skill affects skirmish power, which must be balanced with the power of the aforementioned archery and vitality. In case it remains.
Another option is to trim the skill. "Each other Orc is strength +2" (not dependant on bearer) frees 1 line. The full power will still be only on the huge hands of the Great Goblin (str 10, vit 3, fierce: fights and survives better, also protects the Orc-fuel).
- Dark Sorcery: Found a small problem. The current wording allows the FP player to discard the Shadow Arkenstone! This wording solves it: "Exert a [Sauron] minion to make the Free Peoples player discard a Free Peoples card borne by a companion (or 2 Free Peoples cards if the fellowship is at a battleground site)."
We might create other Shadow cards borne by companions. Like the old Morgul Arrow, or something like this for Thorin:
[1] •Dragon-sickness [No Culture]
Condition
Strength -1
To play, spot Smaug. Plays on Thorin.
At the end of each assignment phase in which Thorin was not assigned to a skirmish (and an ally or another [Dwarven] companion was), add a doubt.
"By my life, I will not part with a single coin. Not one piece of it!"
A sort of Thin and Stretched for Thorin (but can trigger twice per site, and still triggers at site 9). It's only an example.
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I think we have the final cards of the Swarm Pack 3 now.
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* Goblin Archery Shadow
I see you removed the Response skill, that's better considering their high vitality. :up:
* Sauron Swarm Shadow
- Orc Sentinel: Str 5 and cost [1]... :up:
- Dark Sorcery: Much better at regroup, great! :up: Now, what about the [Dale] Iron-forged Weapons? The new version cannot discard them. "Non- [Shire] card", or "(except a [Shire] card)" will be better. Also, the Elrond pack might have an [Elven] item, which perhaps may be borne by companions. Must specify a "Free Peoples card" or a list of FP cultures only, otherwise The Shadow Arkenstone will be discardable.
- Rise of the Necromancer: The cost of [2] prevents abuses (and gives extra value to Mithril Coat ;)). But still I strongly disagree about the prevention cost, is both too costly and totally wrong with the story. Sauron's power was countered by the will of the White Council (and none of them died meanwhile). That can be portrayed by !the Wise exerting or wounding themselves (like "The FP player may assign X wounds to Wise characters"). But Elrond's regeneration (and the potential of more Wise allies) will make it very hard to balance... :-k
So we can extend that role to the willpower of any good guy (Wise or not): "The Free Peoples player may make you assign X exertions to his or her characters to prevent this." The Shadow player controls the exertions. Alike your version, the idea is to erase defenders, but this one gives the FP player some degree of maneuver (and better flavor). So by shuffling a small amount of Orcs like 3+ the prevention will enable you to exhaust one or more irksome defenders like Gandalf, Thorin or Fili and try to kill them later (helped by Anger). You can even put some exertions on Elrond to assure he won't be healing them.
[2] Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Skirmish
Shuffle X Orcs into your draw deck to make a [Sauron] minion strength +3 for each Orc shuffled this way. The Free Peoples player may make you assign X exertions to his or her characters to prevent this.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
"Exhausted" is not "dead," and after shuffling your Orcs there will be few or no skirmishes left. So a Morgul Slayer skill would be very useful to finish the work at regroup. Malevolent Orc is perfect to carry such task. "Regroup: Discard this minion to wound a companion (except Bilbo)." Discard, not exert, to avoid combos with vitality bonuses (Goblin Bow).
[2] Malevolent Orc [Sauron]
Minion • Orc
Strength 7 Vitality 2 Site 5
At the end of each of your Shadow phases, you may take a [Gundabad] or [Sauron] event from your discard pile into hand.
Regroup: Discard this minion to wound a companion (except Bilbo).
"I saw them with my own eyes. Rank upon rank of Moria Orcs!"
Hope this helps.
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The current version of Rise of the Necromancer was well balanced during playtests. I prefer to keep the current version, much easier to test. It could eventually be
2x [2] Rise of the Necromancer [Sauron]
Event • Skirmish
Shuffle X Orcs from play into your draw deck to make a [Sauron] minion strength +3 for each Orc shuffled this way. The Free Peoples player may place Gandalf in the dead pile to prevent this.
"The East will fall... The time of the Elves is over. The Age of the Orc has come."
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- Rise of the Necromancer: Well balanced in gameplay, but very wrong in depiction of the story. Dwarves didn't fight at Dol Guldur, so they couldn't die facing Sauron or his servants. And Gandalf survived the White Council's assault, and also his investigation there 91 years before ("Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped." But escaped, and that's what matters). I mean this: threat of death is a thing, but unavoidable death is a totally different matter.
The powerful alternative cost I propose is uncertain death, but unlike your version it's you who chooses which FP guys get punished. Then the Malevolent Orc's new skill will attempt for the last needed push (isn't that the same bully Orc who batters on Gandalf? ;)).
- Dark Sorcery: What about the [Dale] weapons?
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- Rise of the Necromancer: Maybe, but I prefer a balanced game... We are still playtesting this Shadow, this event may change.
- Dark Sorcery: I don't think it's necessary.
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- Dark Sorcery: When this event is played, decks based on the Dale pack will have only Main deck things to discard: [Dwarven] followers, Glamdring and Orcrist. That will help Hidden to play more Orcs. Which may be fine, considering the support of fighting (and firing) allies; or the stronger companions, if the Dale hand weapons aren't borne by allies.
- The Great Goblin: I wonder if you tested him working in a [Sauron] Swarm. He (and Narzug costing [1]) will make the Sentinels draw a lot, that's fine. But what worries me is the huge amounts of Orcs that will be available to fuel his skill... any companion in his path may very well be machine-gunned to death (and he's fierce!).
Or perhaps my worries are unfounded, that's why I'm asking.
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- Dark Sorcery: Ok I change it. It's forest now and only 2 copies (and 3 for Rise of the Necromancer).
2x (0) Dark Sorcery [Sauron]
Event • Regroup
Spot a [Sauron] minion to make the Free Peoples player discard a Free Peoples card borne by a [Gandalf] or [Dwarven] companion (or 2 if the fellowship is at a forest site).
"These are dark spells... old and full of hate."
- The Great Goblin: Yes, we test a Goblin Archery list with few [Sauron] Orcs (1-2 copies of the cheap Orcs). It's ok now, because a [Sauron] swarm doesn't use the doubts (except at site 9). Moreover, cheap Orcs die first. We can still limit the skill of the Great Goblin.
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- Dark Sorcery: Much better. Actually, I hadn't realized before the problem with battlegrounds (only site 9, but no regroup phase there; while sites 2 and 5, and one site 4, are natural forests). :up:
- The Great Goblin: Alright. My question was a bit different (2x the Great Goblin in a [Sauron] Swarm, supported by Fimbul), but you hit the nail when saying "a [Sauron] swarm doesn't use the doubts... Moreover, cheap Orcs die first." Then, we must merely consider that [Sauron] + [Moria] doubt-adding power when designing the Shadow cards of the new Supplementary packs. :up:
(Besides the already mentioned arguments about Rise of the Necromancer) we now agree about everything in the Swarm packs. What's next, Beatdown or Supplementary packs?
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Assuming there's now more attention for FP cards, I think this one might be well in either Balin's pack or the Travellers pack:
[1] Dwarven Sword [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] or [Dale] character.
At a battleground, bearer is damage +1.
Response: If bearer is exhausted and wins a skirmish, discard 2 cards from hand to heal him or her.
"Azog the Defiler learned that day that the line of Durin would not be so easily broken."
You said you wanted "more heal for the Dwarves," (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg91700.html#msg91700) so it has a built-in End of the Game (portraying Thorin's desperate victory at Azanulbizar). Specially useful with the self-exhausting dwarves (except Dwalin): Kili, Fili, Balin, Nori and Glóin. But the exhausted trigger makes it both hard and risky to abuse.
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Ok for the Swarm Pack 3. Rise for the Necromancer doesn't need a counterpart for the FP player, I only put it to prevent new players from being easily surprised by the card (so, the cost must be huge and good for the Shadow, here crowd control).
The next part is the Beatdown Pack 3 ;).
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- Rise of the Necromancer: Alright then. True, is like Massing Strength (which doesn't give an alternative) except for the [Sauron] culture enforcement, which makes wiser to fight the weak non- [Sauron] Orcs first. Didn't see it that way before. :up:
I think the Morgul Slayer skill would be a cool addition, but may twist the already gained balance too much. So let it as it is.
Beatdown Pack 3 means only Corrupted Lake-towners and Wood Elves, before playtestings take place. In pure theory, the Giants are well balanced by now, but that may differ in the practical experience (also, they need to be balanced with the potential support of the Mirkwood and/or Lake-town cards). I'll be working on reviews to post soon.
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*Mirkwood Elves Shadow
I'll start with the Mirkwood Elves. I've been really busy, and by now I have time for only 1 card. It caught my attention because has a problem very tough to solve by thinking inside of the box only.
- Elven Jails: The idea of stacking is very good, but unlike the [Sauron] Jail, if this condition is discarded there's no way to replay the stacked Dwarf companions (no difference from "removed from the game"). So the Elven Jail kills the Dwarf, more or less. There's still not a single way to return any FP card (or "a [Dwarven] companion" for the matter) into the draw deck. And we just cannot solve it by adding a text like "when this condition is discarded, shuffle each card stacked here into its owner's draw deck". When you proposed "discard 2 companions" as the alternative cost of Rise of the Necromancer, it had the exact same problem... :-k
It's a design fault to not provide a recycling tool. Which limits the design of new cards, like this. The Dwarven Shovel was meant to do that. But since the flaw is universal, the solution must be universally accesible. So this should solve the general design failure: in The Clouds Burst Extension you added 5 Shadow cards to the Main deck; in this new Extension, you can add 2 or 3 new FP designed to correct the gerenal design flaws.
Besides recycling, the Shovel would also provide a small weapon, reducing the power gap between Packs with weapons and those without. The old "Boxing Dwarves" problem. As a mere reminder:
[1] Dwarven Shovel [Dwarven]
Possession • Hand Weapon
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
This weapon may be borne in addition to 1 other hand weapon.
Fellowship: Exert bearer to place 2 Free Peoples card from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"We're making a long-term deposit!"
You mentioned another design flaw, which is the superiority of Leader of the Company over the discardable Gandalfs. Either a tool to prevent discarding him, or a tool that gives benefits when he's discarded (or can't be spotted), would help to balance things. I got this for the first option:
[2] Wizard's Mount [Gandalf]
Possession • Mount
Strength +1
Bearer must be a Wizard.
Each time the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, heal bearer.
Response: If bearer is about to be discarded, discard this mount instead.
"...a trumpet-voice, a burning brand, a weary pilgrim on the road."
Narya, Beorn's House and Friend of Thorin would still give benefits (by preserving the mount, you keep the healing and strength). Since Gandalf the Grey has nothing to prevent discard or be replayed, he'd be the most benefited. It requires to be drawn, which may make its effect unstable, so a card to play possessions from deck might be good there... something like an ally perhaps (Albert Dreary, Enduring Entretainer?).
Another possible flaw is the lack of twilight remotion cards, and move limit addition is also very scarce; a [Shire] event called "The Road Goes Ever On" can solve both problems. Triple moving would make games more intense and interesting...
(0) The Road Goes Ever On [Shire]
Event • Fellowship or Regroup
Exert Bilbo to remove [3] and to make the move limit +1 for this turn.
I'm merely throwing ideas on the board. But I'm really serious about the Dwarven Shovel.
So what do you think?
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It's a design fault to not provide a recycling tool. Which limits the design of new cards, like this.
Calm down. There are plenty other ways to design cards... The text of Elven Jails could just change a bit to be correct.
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Alright. Perhaps I'm thinking too fast, haha! ;D We can think in some alternatives for the current Elven Jails.
However, the problem I describe is not in Elven Jails, but in "the absence of a way to replay or recycle [Dwarven] companions" (or "any [Dwarven] card"). AWINL can replay a Wise character, if is stacked on [Sauron] Jail and it gets discarded later, but for [Dwarven] characters there's nothing. So a "discarded Dwarf companion" means almost the same as "a killed Dwarf." We can add a text to Elven Jails to correct that lack of recycling, but it'd need 3 lines at least, while the current Skirmish skill uses 5.
Also, there are other possible problematic scenarios, like misclicks on Gemp. There's no misclicks with real cards, but when this marvelous project of yours gets included into Gemp, a player may misclick on a Dwarf companion when reconciling, and the Dwarf will be plainly erased. It can happen also with discard mechanics, like Ori, Óin and Riddles in the Dark. That problem arises from the lack of [Dwarven] recycling + the fact that each companion has 1 copy max. It's a small design flaw, but a flaw still.
- Elven Jails: We can think in some alternatives. I see 3 by the moment:
1) A transferrable condition may make "bearer cannot be assigned to skirmish." But there's a big difference in numbers: such condition can block 1 Dwarf only, while the stacking Jails has no limit. Given that power reduction, a lower play and skill cost should be considered, so only [1] for playing, and [2] for transferring:
[1] Elven Jails [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support area
Bearer cannot be assigned to skirmish.
Skirmish: If Bilbo is not assigned to a skirmish, remove [2] to transfer this to a [Dwarven] companion assigned to a skirmish. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent this.
"There is no !escape from my magic doors..."
2) It might return a Dwarf companion to hand, just like Laketown Patrol. But the companion will almost surely be replayed at next turn, which doesn't resemble a jail with "no !escape". So a passive skill that triggers "each time a [Dwarven] companion is played" may represent those doors where Dwarves can't !escape—not at least without Bilbo's help! Bilbo uses his Ring to liberate his fellows, so "add a doubt and exert Bilbo" might be a good effect. Pair it with Not At Home, and the companion may prefer to simply not return:
[3] (Non-unique) Elven Jails [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support area
Each time a [Dwarven] companion is played, add a doubt and exert Bilbo.
Skirmish: If Bilbo is not assigned to a skirmish, remove [3] to return a [Dwarven] companion to his owner's hand. His owner may add a doubt to prevent this.
"There is no !escape from my magic doors..."
3) Compress text in the current version, to allow the addition of a reshuffling text:
[3] Elven Jails [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support area
If this condition is discarded, shuffle each card stacked here into its owner's draw deck.
Skirmish: If Bilbo is not assigned to a skirmish, remove [3] to stack a [Dwarven] companion in a skirmish here. Its owner may add a doubt to prevent this.
(No lore text)
If I had to choose, I think #1 will be funny. Those are the only options I can see by now, but you might think in others.
Hope this helps.
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I think this text is great (6 lines) and we still have a lore text:
[3] Elven Jails. [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support area.
When this card is discarded, companions stacked here return to its owner's hand.
Skirmish: If Bilbo is not assigned to a skirmish, remove [3] to stack a [Dwarven] companion assigned to a skirmish here. Its owner may add a doubt to prevent this
"There is no escape from my magic doors."
The wording "assigned to a skirmish" is important.
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- Elven Jails: Great! ;D I really like it! :up: "Return to hand" is shorter and gives a good flavor of a band of fugitives (they use hand slots while escaping, add full twilight when replayed, and reappear totally healed). Bravo! =D>
But needs some slight changes. "It's owner's hand" is wrong, should be "their owner's hand" (as refers to the plural "companions"). Also we need to compress the text a bit more, according to my measuring method. "Companions stacked here" can be changed to "cards stacked here". The word "card" can be erased in "when this card is discarded" (similar to Namarie or Ceremonial Armor). Finally, in the active skill you can change the order of a word to use better each line's room: "stack a [Dwarven] companion assigned to a skirmish here" to "stack here a [Dwarven] companion assigned to a skirmish." That should be enough.
- Borders of the Forest: By merely revealing the event, you can remove 2* [X] and discard X surviving Orcs (fierce Orcs tend to survive less), and the exact same [Dwarven] event will be nullifying each try. Mocking Goblin doesn't have that problem, since needs the event to be discarded. So I'd change it to "unless the FP player discards a Free Peoples event from hand." Any FP event, including now [Gandalf], [Elven] and [Shire] (like Barrels ;)).
Since the skill requires Orcs and this condition to remain until regroup, Ancestral Knowledge won't stand with crossed arms, while pumps and direct wounding events will often counter the Orc part by being played. Then mainly events to set up, heal and summon allies will he held in hand to stop this condition's menace. That'll impair well those specific events (and also the use of Ori, Óin and Gwaihir).
- Elf-Guards: Found a potential abuse: you may play no minions at all, in order to skip directly to the regroup phase and prevent counters (Ancestral Knowledge, Sting and Bifur), also saving twilight by the way for a potential double move. Changing it to "at the end of the maneuver phase" will force some minion to be played and thus Ancestral Knowledge can try to discard it before triggering, or Sting and Bifur after (if a minion survives the archery phase). And would work at site 9 (where the Elf host besieged the Lonely Mountain).
(Must be after followers are attached, and since followers are optional and this card is a required action, it cannot happen "at the start of the maneuver phase." "At the end" of such phase will be enough.)
Alike Dark Sorcery, should say "a Free Peoples card borne by a [Dwarven] companion" to include the Dale weapons, [Shire] Old Thrush and [Gandalf] Gwaihir. By triggering at (the end of) maneuver, it'd affect skirmishes more as the FP support would be removed before they take place, so including more cultures to discard should balance that power increase.
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Thanks, I made some changes on these 3 cards. Tell me if it's ok now.
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I'm really sorry to be so late again :(. I've had troubles with both my health and my computer...
- Elven Jails: Much better. "Remove [2]" seems fine, but raise it to [3] in case you make Braga "lurker" again (any lurker minion facing a Dwarf will easily fulfill Elven Jails' trigger, EVEN if Bilbo is assigned to another minion) :up:
- Borders of the Forest: I like the Shadow skill's effect, but would have a much better flavor if the cost was "discard an Orc from play." About Gandalf, the skill seems not totally right lorewise (only Thráin can explain it), but seems good for gameplay as this Shadow has worse chances against figthing allies and/or a strong Gandalf. :up:
- The Elvenking: Cool card, works like Siege Engine. Fortunately there's no condition nukes here, but still this Shadow will fall too easily if there's no protection for conditions. I like it! :up:
- Ancient Grudge: Making minions fierce only at certain (low) sites is simply too superfluous. I'd change it to "Each minion at a forest is fierce", which triggers at all sites 5 (btw forget about site 3, they were friends) but also at any other you want to force. The Skirmish skill seems fine.
The pack has currently only pictures and themes of the imprisonment at Mirkwood, and nothing for the Siege of Erebor. I'd prefer for this card a picture of the close melee between the Iron Hills Dwarves and Thranduil's soldiers!
- Elf-guards: Better at archery. But I still think it should include the [Dale] Weapons... makes no sense that the Wood elves wouldn't confiscate them if somehow the Company would've carried them in that stage of the Quest. Also, (besides Orcrist) in the book they only took from them knives and bows given by Beorn, which should be [Gandalf] here if ever included.
If the problem is discarding Gwaihir and the Old Thrush, you can try this: "At the start of the archery phase, add a doubt (or 2 doubts at a forest site). The Free Peoples player may discard a [Dwarven] card (or a weapon) borne by a [Dwarven] companion to prevent this."
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Before I forget, I made this prototype for Balin's pack, I think it'd be cool to have some brotherly interaction:
(0) Brothers In Arms [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship or Skirmish
Exert a [Dwarven] companion to spot a [Dwarven] companion and either heal him or make him strength +3.
If both companions are Balin and Dwalin or Fili and Kili, you may return this event to your hand at the end of this phase.
"I will carry him, if I must!"
A Dwarf helps another Dwarf. They share the peril. In skirmish, it can heal a Dwarf that otherwise'd be killed by wounds, or save a Dwarf from losing a skirmish or be overwhelmed. In fellowship, they simply share the burden. If both Dwarves are blood brothers, their mutual help will be much more frequent.
Hope this helps.
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Mirkwood Shadow:
Borders of the Forest: Ok, great idea.
Ancient Grudge: I will change the picture ;). The idea is to use Rhudaur to grab conditions to set up the Shadow. I think the new text is better now.
Elf-guards: I think the text could be a bit long with your addition. The targets are the [Dwarven] followers more than the weapons.
Balin Pack
Great idea, I want a simpler card. The text will change with the tests.
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Mirkwood Shadow:
- Borders of the Forest: Considering it might arrive too late in the game (and the cost isn't low), I'd either change it to "(limit twice per phase)" or add a new phase to the special ability, like "Shadow or Maneuver" or "Shadow or Skirmish".
- Ancient Grudge: Very interesting! It'll work wonders with Orcrist, rising the chances of Elf-Guards of discarding it (if the Company is being troubled by Orcs). It'll interact niftily with Thranduil (he'll be able to erase the fierce effect, at a very high cost), and exactly in the opposite way with the Thorin, Thráin and Dáin packs. Also, will often trigger at site 3 for Rhudaur to work, as you wanted. =D>
I think this loretext might do well here, an extract from The Hobbit book that fits marvelously well with the Nauglamír incident told much later in the Silmarillion: "...for they did not love dwarves... though Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel..."
- Elf-Guards: I don't think my version is too long (only 5 lines). By now, all weapons for Dwarves are [Dwarven] cultured, except for the [Dale] Iron-Forged Weapons. Still, the DoS film gives pictures of Thorin using a "Beorning Bow," and doesn't take too much effort to create such a [Gandalf] weapon if we ever wished:
[1] Beorning Bow [Gandalf]
Strength +1
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
If bearer is Thorin, he is an archer.
Each time the special ability of a Shadow card is used, you may exert bearer to exert a minion.
"...he had bent his bow and fitted an arrow in case any hidden guardian of the boat appeared."
The bow of a keen and wary traveller. A mere example (it doesn't fit any pack in the current Extension). But illustrates my point.
Balin Pack:
- Brothers in Arms: Ok for a simpler version. But +2 str to EVERY Dwarf worries me, is similar to the mighty Lend Us Your Aid (Thorin + Orcrist + followers... and +2 str!). Also, you can save 2 copies for +4 str at site 9 (an easy happy ending). So I'd limit its effect to only the pair of brothers you choose:
[1] Brothers In Arms [Dwarven]
Event • Maneuver
Spot Balin and Dwalin (or Fili and Kili) to heal them once and make them strength +2 until the regroup phase.
"I will carry him, if I must!"
Keep in mind those 4 Dwarves have very cool exert-to-use special abilities, so healing 2 of them allows those skills to be used much more often (we that for Balin!). Also, by being both healed and pumped, those defenders will have much better stats to fight and survive tough battles. The specific combos would be:
- Balin & Dwalin: you can make Dwalin defender +1 and recycle a FP event for totally free!
- Fili & Kili: it comes too soon for their skills to be used for free, but makes them much better fighters while Fili's protection makes self-exhausting a Dwarf (like his brother Kili) much less perilous. (To make Kili's skill free, it should be at "Maneuver or Archery" or so.)
Elrond Pack: What do you think about this card?
[1] Hold Ranks! [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship or Regroup
Exert a [Dwarven] companion to take into hand an [Elven] or [Mirkwood] card from your draw deck or discard pile.
"Welcome, Thorin, son of Thráin... I knew Thrór when he ruled Under the Mountain."
(Yes, evil Elves too!) It kinda replaces the current "Unveiling Moon Runes Secrets." But Elrond's interpretation of the map is important for the story, so I'd remove instead "A Wise Advice"(superfluous to my taste) and keep "Unveiling Moon Runes Secrets" with another effect. Also, I'd rename it to simply "Cirth Ithil!".
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Mirkwood Shadow:
- Borders of the Forest: Sure, but the first effect will be still very useful. Moreover, the condition The Elvenking will be stronger with one more [Mirkwood] condition in game.
- Ancient Grudge: Great :). Thanks for the lore text.
- Elf-Guards: Sure, but I want simple cards. The lore behind this card is still here.
I'm not sure that we will find a pack to put this weapon in :(.
Balin Pack:
- Brothers in Arms: Ok the event is better now. But an event based on [Dwarven] possessions (as the whole pack) would be great. And a simple event! ;).
Elrond Pack:
- Hold Ranks!: Great! I don't like an event with different phases, so fellowship phase would be enough. Maybe an [Elven] event? Like the whole pack? The pack needs then a [Mirkwood] card.
I have no idea at the moment for a new text for Unveiling Moon Runes Secrets.
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Mirkwood Shadow:
- Borders of the Forest: True and true. Besides, if the game is ending and you still don't draw your other [Mirkwood] conditions, then something must be wrong with your deck (too large probably); at site 9 you can still get 1 condition, and maybe wound an ally twice by the way. :up:
- Ancient Grudge: I'm glad you liked it. I'm impatient to see the new version with the new pic. ;)
- Elf-Guards: Alright. Main deck provides 1x [Dwarven] weapon + 6x [Dwarven] followers, + 1x TMOMK. The Supplementary packs only add to that pile. :up:
Balin Pack:
- Brothers in Arms: I'd prefer possessions that interact with events like this one. I mean, Balin was more a wise and experienced leader/councellor than a resourceful trader/smith ;). Still, the card uses only 4 lines by now (3 for gametext +1 for lore), so there's good room for a small addition that interacts with possessions... something like this (2 lines merely):
[2] Brothers In Arms [Dwarven]
Event • Maneuver
Spot Balin and Dwalin (or Fili and Kili) to heal them once and make them strength +2 until the regroup phase.
You may discard 2 [Dwarven] possessions to play this event from your discard pile.
"I will carry him, if I must!
Or even "to return this event to your hand." But the idea is that they can ditch the treasure and their equipment and run to help their brothers.
Elrond Pack:
- Hold Ranks!: Fellowship phase is enough. I prefer [Dwarven], but [Elven] will still do the trick. The idea of being a [Dwarven] card was to show the Dwarves' distrust for Elves (every other "distrust" card is a [Mirkwood] card showing Elves distrusting Dwarves).
About the [Mirkwood] card, I don't think it's necessary to include one to keep Hold Ranks' interaction with that culture; the Thorin pack has Goblin Song (which can be replayed by the Great Goblin) but no Great Goblin. Also, there's already a lot of [Mirkwood] support area cards showing "Elf distrusts Dwarf." If I were to include a [Mirkwood] card in the Elrond pack, I'd try instead with a "plays on a Dwarf" condition, to try a different approach...
[1] Secretive People [Mirkwood]
Condition
Plays on a [Dwarven] companion.
Bearer may not be healed by [Elven] cards.
Each time an [Elven] ally is assigned to a skirmish, exert bearer. The Free Peoples player may add a doubt to prevent this.
"It is the legacy of my people; it is mine to protect, as are its secrets."
But Sauron will be important in this Extension, to interact with the [Sauron] Swarm pack. Just like the Catapult and Bridging Trolls interacting with Boulder Rock. Then there's 3 cards for 2 slots only, so I'd remove the !Scouting !Warg, but that's merely my opinion.
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- Beorning Bow: I know, it was a mere example. There's a lack of room for this kind of cards in the limited current card pool. And I believe it happens because almost all Sup packs (except Travellers only, and perhaps the White Council and Dáin) are designed around specific characters and cultures, but not around important stages and events of the story. Then most card slots are used for representative characters and items, and very few is left for events and less important people and tools.
For instance, the Thorin Pack compiles things from Azanulbizar (the Oakenshield), the Unexpected Party (Dwarven Song), the Goblin Town !escape (Goblin Song), the Siege of Erebor (!Mithril Coat, Great Barricade, both Arkenstones)... all concern Thorin, it's ok. But there's no "Battle of Azanulbizar Pack" to develop furtherly the ideas about it (like the Burned Dwarves, Thrór, Nár, Azog as "King of Moria"...); Du Bekar is about Azanulbizar too, but comes in another pack, so the theme is scattered and loses depth in development. There's no "Reclaiming Erebor pack" showing the Company vs Smaug (improvised "fortifications," Bilbo and Smaug's mind games, Thorin's thirst of revenge, Smaug's Fire Breath...), nor a "Battle of the Five Armies pack" with interactions between the 3 Good cultures vs the 2 bad ones (with some smaller characters like the brave Hilda Bianca leading the weary and elderly "Esgaroth Refugees"). So all those tasty details have no room, and must be placed in the trash can. :( Or perhaps in new packs in this (or another) Extension?
So this Beorning Bow would fit well in the Wizard pack (or a "Beorn pack") if we talk about "character packs." About "Situation packs," it'd be well in a "Flies and Spiders pack" (or even in the Travellers pack). But there's no room now.
EDIT: Made some changes, which are written in blue.
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Thanks, for your answer. I will think about the text of Brothers in Arms.
Sure, The Great Goblin isn't in the Thorin Pack, but he is now in 2/3 Swarm Packs. In the Elrond Pack, a [Sauron] card would be great, and also a Warg. Elrond doesn't cause so much troubles to the Dwarves.
The Blue Mountains pack could be rethematized in something else. But I want something around [Dwarven] followers. It will be the last Supplementary Pack.
Any thoughts about the [Men] Shadow?
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All the current version of the cards. I didn't update the first post yet.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/ShadowPack3.html
And probably a new Gandalf : http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/NewGandalf2.png
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Hi there,
Since the cards are now visible on Gemp, I've been reading through some that pop up in the deck builder. Not sure if this is the right thread to post this in, but I noticed a typo in one of the cards: Gloin, Father of Gimli says "Skimirsh" instead of "Skirmish". I don't know if you have plans to change things at this point, but I thought I would let you know.
Looking forward to playing the game on Gemp. Fingers crossed on the fixes this week.
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Thanks, I will change it soon.
I also hope we will play the Hobbit on gemp soon.
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Hi Enola/ Durin's Heir,
I just wanted to post that (a) I've been using the idea of a Dale culture in my own personal rendition of a hobbit set (for me and my brother and friends), and that while I was at it I managed what I think to be an improvement on the blanks for the Dale culture :)
I'm attaching them to this post in case you want to use them, though I don't know if it's more of a pain to use than they are worth. In any case, I love what you're doing and here are some Dale-culture blanks!
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Thanks a lot for your work Zacharr, these Dale-culture blanks are beautiful. I want to replace my Dale blanks with yours, but I need a better definition for them.
In order to avoid too much pixels, my image dimensions are 1495x2078. I can give you the blanks I used to make my Dale cards, can you transform them?
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I absolutely can transform them!
If you noticed, I kept your Dale symbol in there. My test dummy card was your copy of Bain in fact :P
All I would need is a blank Dale "other" card, and a blank Dale "character" card. I can make artifact from the other easily :)
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PM sent :).
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I sent one back with the images :up:
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Thank you, I sent you the new Dale cards.
I am on holiday, I don't have access to my ftp server to change the cards on hobbitdraftgrame.free.fr. I will change them at the end of August.
I'm still working on the Shadow Pack 3, I'm modifying (almost each day) the first post of this topic.
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- New Gandalf: Seems clever to add a drawing engine to compensate FoT's unability to play Dwarves from deck. But I fear that removing the cost reduction line for Thorin will simply destroy any deck based on Balin (as you must play him soon, but not at the cost of not starting Thorin). That'll harm severely the usefulness of the Balin Pack, and others like the White Council, Wizard and Thráin which are intensive in events. So I see 3 solutions (there might be more):
1.- Trim the loretext to 1 line, and reintroduce the cost reduction line for Thorin. This is the simplest option. The lore text would end up like this: "Well, that's decided. It will be very good for you..." and most amusing for me. I shall inform the others."
2.- You can change the "drawing skill" to a "play a [Dwarven] companion from deck" skill, fueled too discarding a Dwarf follower. Then, 6x Dwarf followers would be 6x AWINL for Dwarf companions, at the high expense of losing follower support. Then 1x to 3x TMOMK would balance that cost, gaining the importance you wished. "Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to play a [Dwarven] companion from your draw deck."
3.- You can add 3x At You Service to Balin's pack (instead of Careful With These) and avoid all changes in your new Gandalf. That'd also add some flavor (since Dwalin and Balin were the first to arrive that way). But won't help other packs that need Balin's recycling skill.
In option #1, I'd change Gandalf's cost to [1] (to start him with Thorin + Balin/Dwalin); in the others I'd set it to [2] (to start him with Thorin alone). That's 'cause I simply dislike the idea of being able to play at site 5+ a totally fresh Wizard companion for (0) (with AWINL, Radagast or Saruman)... I know Gandalf FoT has a discard prevention skill, but he can still be stacked on Jail and it can be discarded later (or Yazneg can reduce Dwarf followers to 1 or less by site 4; or the FP player can intentionally discard all but 1 Dwarf follower before moving to site 5).
Now, thinking about the discard prevention skill... why discarding Gandalf must necessarily be a bad thing? You might try a different approach on the "Gandalf leaves us" problem. It might trigger some benefit. The 2 lines of the prevention skill might be used for a short skill, triggering "If Gandalf is discarded" so "you may"...
- "heal a companion" / "remove a doubt" / "remove [3]"
- "play a non- [Dwarven] card from your draw deck" (Gandalf departs but sends some help: a home 5 ally like Radagast or Thranduil, a follower like Beorn or the Old Thrush...)
- might even "return him (and any card he bears) to your hand".
The [Gandalf] Packs that need him in play already have ways to prevent his discarding (or to replay him), so won't be harmed at all. I like the last one, it might help with decks that exert Gandalf too much: you get at site 5 or 6 a totally fresh Gandalf for [1] or [2], + [2] for Glamdring. Of course this is not a necessity, only a suggestion to add more possibilities and flavor.
So with all those possibilities in mind, this is an example of a new Gandalf FoT:
[2] •Gandalf, Friend of Thorin [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Fellowship: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to play a [Dwarven] companion from your draw deck.
Response: If Gandalf is discarded, return him (and any card he bears) to your hand.
"Well, that's decided. It will be very good for you... and most amusing for me. I shall inform the others."
Hope this helps, and doesn't come too late.
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You are right about Balin, I thought about it, but I wanted to have a simple Gandalf with only two sentences (one passive and one active). Drawing cards seems much more fun than just searching a [Dwarven] companion in the draw deck (it will be too strong with 4 companions in the starting). I also change Careful with These in the Balin Pack to avoid the problem of Balin.
If Gandalf is in the discard pile, all [Gandalf] events are useless. It's important to have other ways to keep Gandalf in play.
Gandalf, Friend of Thorin Cost 1 Strength 7 Vitality 4
The twilight cost of Thorin is -2.
While you can spot 2 Dwarf followers, Gandalf cannot be discarded.
Fellowship: Discard a Dwarf follower and add a doubt to draw 3 cards.
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I got some ideas about that Gandalf, and another Gandalf that begun to worry me a bit. And about the role of the Flash-flames...
- Gandalf, Friend of Thorin: Agree, drawing cards is much more fun! But to use TMOMK as Delving, I'd prefer to exert Gandalf or "a companion" instead of adding doubts, which are much harder to remove. It's important to make the mechanism easy to pay once per turn, so it can provide good set up in the early sites (when its more needed). The prevention skill already limits a lot the drawing, by forcing you to keep 2 followers.
I believe the discard prevention shouldn't even force you to keep followers, to give total drawing freedom (the Rule of 4 is enough a limit). A way to do is to change the spotting of "2 Dwarf followers" to spotting, let's say, "5 Dwarves (except allies)" to include companions. Without followers, "5 Dwarves" + Bilbo + Gandy means 7 comps = no follower support + Marauder risk zone (plus other things which need 6 comps: Erebor, Dale, [Sauron] Bolg, Azog's Mace & Wicked Spider). The safe number begins with 2 Dwarf followers + 3 Dwarf comps. Perhaps "5 Dwarves" is too high (killing or discarding only 1 might wreak havoc, or even not drawing them soon enough during those 4 first sites), 4 might be better but not less I think.
Another reason to not rely on followers to keep Gandalf is the extreme power given to a well-timed (or abused) Yazneg (Fimbul can help in such task). Experienced players will see that weakness easily, and exploit it from the start. So my version'd be like this:
[1] •Gandalf, Friend of Thorin [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
The twilight cost of Thorin is -2.
While you can spot 4 Dwarves (except allies), Gandalf cannot be discarded.
Fellowship: Discard a Dwarf follower and exert a companion to draw 3 cards.
"Well, that's decided. It will be very good for you..."
- Gandalf, The Grey: I've been thinking about the ease of access to 3x of each Main Deck event in GEMP, and begun to fear this Gandalf will be overused there. With so many events he'll be by far the mightiest of all Gandalfs: his cost-free Powerful Guide skill outweighs by far the "discard at Mirkwood" problem (which will be easily countered by many ways, like playing Narya with his skill, using a favourable site 4 or 5, or packing many copies of AWINL or Radagast). The high doubt toll of his active skill will be countered by 3x He Gives Me Courage (which also trigger the wounding!), and by playing Glamdring soon.
Players will even try a choke trio of Bilbo-Thorin-Gandalf focusing his set up skill mainly on artifacts (with on-demand support of key companions, like Balin to recycle needed events or Dwalin before moving to site 9), and packing 3x of each important event to gain a brutal control over conditions, swarms, beatdown and corruption (and countering grind by playing expendable Dwarves each turn), with the nice side effect of wounding a minion costlessly per each [Gandalf] event.
So I'd add a cost to the wounding skill, something simple like "exert Gandalf" should do the trick (or perhaps "exert a Wizard" to give the [Gandalf] packs more spell power, especially the Wizard pack which requires Gandalf to exert A LOT).
- Flash-flames: Time ago we discussed about the problematic mechanism that wounds X times a minion, giving chances of killing Smaug with a simple gunpowder bomb. You said "the idea of this cards is also to counter Sauron." I still disagree, so made another card which should accomplish well the countering of Sauron's skill (amongst others whose main effect work at assignment, skirmish or regroup), and also fits well the flavor of the Balin pack:
[2] The War of the Dwarves and Orcs [Dwarven]
Event • Assignment
Wound X [Dwarven] characters to exert a minion X times. That minion's owner may exert a [Dwarven] character and if he or she does so, you may exert a minion; repeat this until a player does not exert a character.
"...at the memory of which the Orcs still shudder and the Dwarves weep."
An improved version of Death They Cried (this one lets you target a minion X times before the process may be stopped by a player). So lets you to counter Sauron or any bad guy, but being past maneuver/archery you won't kill it easily, being skirmish wounding the only way to do so (Iron Forged Weapon, Gandalf the Grey or Orcrist); still, the combo is very expensive if aims a minion with vitality 4 or 5, which should provide balance.
The cost might be different, perhaps "discard X [Dwarven] cards (except companions)" like Du Bekâr. But the idea is to show a large attrition effort from the [Dwarven] forces, directed first against a single bad guy ("...as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain").
Tell me what you think about.
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- New Gandalf: The current version seems to be the best. The version with "exert Gandalf" was too easy to use. Your condition on the discard of Gandalf is also very easy to resolve. The FP player must have some TMOMK to be sure Gandalf will not be discarded at site 5.
- Gandalf, The Grey: We will see what we can do once the Hobbit Game will be on Gemp ;). The metagame could go in a way we didn't expect.
- The War of the Dwarves and Orcs: The card is too long for the draft. Try to make card with 3-4 card lines maximum.
What do you think about the current version of the Mirkwood Shadow? We will continue to test it tuesday. I need your advice.
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Given the urgency of the Mirkwood shadow, I'll post only about it by now,
it'll be updated often. I'll post another one about the other topics, later.
- Mirkwood Shadow: Most things seem fine, but there's at least a thing I'd change drastically (Elven Jails). I believe the conditions will need some recovering tool (the Elvenking's protection may not be enough). This shadow should work well with the Aggressor to add pressure on Bilbo, and the unique Orcs of the Main deck: Narzug grinds and counters allies, Yazneg removes support and Fimbul brings them earlier.
- Ancient Grudge: :up: The general strength reduction seems much better here than in The Elvenking (non-unique so is stackable, and also brings some interesting gambling in case you need only +1 str).
- The Elvenking: :up: A protection and set up card, seems fine. Synergizes much better with Ancient Grudge. But I believe it should play the condition from "your draw deck or discard pile," since this shadow lacks any condition recover mechanism (and a strong pressure towards that will bring havoc).
If so, should play (but not protect) "a [Mirkwood] or [Gundabad] condition", to allow you to get back the backbone of your minion flooding: Hatred Rekindled. Borders of the Forest and Elf-Guards will work better. Keep in mind that with 4+ shadow conditions, Ancestral Knowledge won't target 2 [Mirkwood] conditions (but instead will aim The Elvenking + Hatred Rekindled/Not at Home, or simply 2 [Gundabad] conditions).
- Elven Jails: I dislike such an effect without any built-in counter. But it also seems very hard to trigger: to keep so much twilight and also an Orc alive, you'll need to play 1 or 2 "big" Orcs (but that's str 8 vit 3 max) and hope for Thorin, Glóin, Dwalin and Kili's pity or clumsiness (and lack of follower and spell support, and pumps if you play any yourself). By using poorly supported Beatdown mechanics (Orcs need to win AND keep lots of twilight), interferes with Elf-Guards and Borders of the Forest which rely better on swarm-like methods (those don't need either to win, or to keep twilight).
All in all, I'd prefer something during skirmishes with a prevention cost, like the original skill (but avoiding all that "if Bilbo is skirmishing" part which complicates things unnecessarily):
[2] Elven Jails [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support Area
When this condition is discarded, cards stacked here return to their owner's hand.
Skirmish: Discard an Orc skirmishing a Dwarf companion to stack that Dwarf here. That Dwarf (or Bilbo) may exert to prevent this.
"There is no escape from my magic doors..."
Should cost [2] or [3] to play (to not abuse the grind too early). Now uses a grind mechanism. Thus playing many weak Orcs will be good for this shadow, as they don't need to win (being Narzug a double or triple benefit!). Orkish Aggressor will work marvels with this, by keeping Bilbo's vitality busy.
If you think Bilbo's vitality will ruin it too easily, then it may be "that Dwarf may exert once (or Bilbo twice)..." Lorewise, it should be an "Orc (or Spider)" (and being Spiders strong, cheap and fierce should synergize); there's enough room.
Another card should make Orcs fierce, as it'll double the grind potential without any drawback: Orcs with enough strength/luck to win the 1st skirmsh may cause a 2nd wound or imprison a Dwarf if kept for a fierce skirmish, and those that'd be killed in the first wave will be easily be discarded as fuel. Borders of the Forest seems well for that task: "Each Orc at a forest is fierce."
- Elf Guards: I haven't spend much time on this, but the enhanced effect seems very perilous. I mean, with 2 Ancient Grudge stacking + an imprisoned Dwarf (+ perhaps a pump), you can easily add 6-8 doubts in a single site!
I'll try to talk more about Borders of the Forest and Elf Guards later. Perhaps one or the other should allow to replay discarded conditions (but at a high price, to avoid being OP), otherwise Sting and Ancestral Knowledge + Balin won't allow your conditions to stay for too long (Bilbo's Pack will provide a strong pressure on conditions, by making Bilbo win skirmishes, recovering key support with the Thrush, and acting directly against conditions and doubts with the Accorns)...
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Thanks a lot for your answer. I dislike built-in counter in Elven Jails, it will slow down the game too much. have you another ability in mind? Staking only the weakest Dwarf seems to be a good idea, it avoids an easy stack of Thorin.
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A built-in counter can slow down the game to some extent, but not so much if the decision is quick and easy (exert a Dwarf OR imprison him = exert all the way!). The shadow should work at some degree with grind, and non-exhausted Dwarves shouldn't be captured easily. Also Thorin is safe if not exhausted, or if doesn't fight, so the weaker companions should fall first.
The probelm of direct mechanisms without counter is that they must be very hard to pay/trigger. And this shadow has another problem: has no minions, so must resolve all with the max str 8 Orcs (or Smaug), which makes using surviving or winning minions too hard, moreover if ALSO uses a ton of twilight not invested in distracting the FP forces. Finally, it interferes with Borders of the Forest (which needs twilight AND minions) and Elf-Guards (which needs winning minions to then be discarded, so you need to play many in order to give better chances to win some fights).
So it's very hard to me, by now, to think about a mechanism WITHOUT a built-in counter...
Instead I propose an easy cost: discard an Orc, be it a weak loser or a magnificent warrior. Then a relatively easy counter... but a price that stacks over and over. With vitality 3 Dwarves.
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The Mirkwood Shadow isn't a beatdown Shadow, it's a corruption Shadow. It will not deal a lot of wounds to Dwarves, the Jails will never be used as a tool for the Mirkwood Shadow... The built-in counter isn't good yet.
We need a clever way to stack Dwarves.
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But uses (by now) some ill-supported Beatdown mechanics, to build its way towards Corruption.
Perhaps all that's needed is more exertion grind pressure on the Dwarves. Elf-Guards / Borders of the Forest might "discard an Orc and pay X other small cost" to exert a [Dwarven] companion. That way, the stronger Dwarves will be prevented from fighting (in presence of Elven Jails), and the weak ones will lose skirmishes much easily (triggering the current Elf-Guards), or be captured (which leads to the same).
Another possibility is this built-in counter: "The Free Peoples player may exert Bilbo or add a doubt" to prevent this. Either corruption or Bilbo-focused grind, no more dispersed grind. Then the Aggressor and Narzug will feast on the burglar. Perhaps something like this:
"Skirmish: Remove [1] and discard an Orc skirmishing a Dwarf companion to stack that Dwarf here. His owner may exert Bilbo or add a doubt to prevent this."
That way, most of the times "play an Orc + pay [1] = FP player exerts Bilbo OR adds a doubt" (until paying that exertion/doubt becomes so painful, that the [Dwarven] fighters will simply be surrendered). Except those Orcs fighting Bilbo (or Gandalf/allies), but Orkish Marauder will get you that exact same effect on Bilbo's skirmish. Weak Orcs destined to lose will be discarded by this skill for 1 "doubt/Bilbo-exertion/jailed-Dwarf", while those that happen to win their skirmishes will be discarded by (the current role of) Elf-Guards for 1 direct doubt. That seems a good corruption mechanism to me.
(Then allies/Gandalf will need to be covered by other [Mirkwood] condition, as Narzug will probably not be enough.)
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I really don't want any built-in counter. I'll try to find something else.
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- Elven Jails: My last proposal is much costlier and very aggressive, similar to Worry or twilight Nazzies (but not having to win skirmishes!). I believe it's good enough, but if you want to exclude built-in counters, then the skill might work with vitality instead of strength:
"Regroup: Discard X Orcs from play to make the Free Peoples player stack a [Dwarven] companion with vitality X here."
Has some similarities with [Sauron] Called Away. Since you don't need anymore to reserve twilight, you can play all the minions your hand and twilight let you (no more ill-supported Beatdown), and those who managed to survive (and probably made wounds meanwhile) will be your total fuel to imprison a Dwarf (or many!). Self-exhausting ones will be easier to pick (Glóin, Kili, Balin); the weakest Dwarves as you said, but in vitality. Give it a chance! ;)
EDIT: Playing 1x Orkish Aggressor should often grant you either 1 doubt at assignment, or 1 Orc at regroup to fuel this skill. Direct wounding can help Bilbo to kill it (Kili, Gandalf the Grey, Dawn Take You All...), but that wears away the FP resources. To make wounding much costlier you can play 2x Aggressors per site, in which case the doubt option's cost is doubled too.
- The Elvenking: You haven't said anything about playing conditions from discard. I'm a bit worried about anti-condition resources killing this Shadow too easily; Bilbo's Pack should be the worst match up: the Accorns, Sting + pumps, and Old Thrush getting [Dwarven] pumps or Ancestral Knowledge.
- Elf-Guards: As said before, the enhanced effect in brackets seems very OP to me, AND the Shadow hasn't yet a way to counter skirmishing allies... so I'd remove the "2 doubts" effect, and add instead an anti-ally text:
[1] •Elf-Guards [Mirkwood]
Condition • Support Area
Each time an ally is assigned to an Orc, that ally must exert or add a doubt.
Response: If a [Dwarven] companion loses a skirmish, discard an Orc from play to add a doubt (limit once per skirmish)
"Do not think I won't kill you, Dwarf!"
Exerting allies clears the path for Narzug to kill them (or to exhaust them, so only doubts can be added if allies insist in fighting). Since happens at assignment, the other skill of Elf-Guards can trigger Narzug a bit later. That other skill was turned into a response.
Edit reason: I'm trying to be clearer and briefen things a bit...
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Update of the card images.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/ShadowPack3.html
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Can one of you explain Lavastone Giant to me? I couldn't find the conversation about making him reveal a card from the Free Peoples hand. After the Fellowship phase, one would expect most cards left in the Free Peoples player's hand to be shadow cards. It seems to me he should exert when he adds +2 to the archery total, not the other way around...
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Can one of you explain Lavastone Giant to me? I couldn't find the conversation about making him reveal a card from the Free Peoples hand. After the Fellowship phase, one would expect most cards left in the Free Peoples player's hand to be shadow cards. It seems to me he should exert when he adds +2 to the archery total, not the other way around...
It's a strong minion, which will often add a lot to the archery total. But not so often, if the FP player keeps FP events in hand, this minion is much more weaker. This minion promotes the use of FP events.
Btw, the Giants Shadow is a fun Shadow, with some random abilities.
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We made a Hobbit Draft Game Tournament last week in Paris. This is probably the last version of the cards (Goblin Town cards will have their names changed). I will print them next week.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/ShadowPack3.html
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No comment?
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I'll post this only by now, while I'm still analyzing the other 2 Shadows...
Stone Giants
- Granite Giant: :up:
- Lavastone Giant: The gametext seems fine. :up: But if some words were changed for shorter equivalents (without changing the effect at all) you should be able to free 1 line to restore the old loretext ("This is no thunderstorm. It's a thunder-battle!"). It'd be this way: "Archery: Exert this minion to reveal a random card from your opponent's hand."
- Boulder Rock: The Archery skill might be better if revealed "3 cards at random from your hand", and made the minion archery +1 "for each Shadow card you reveal". That way, the chances of not adding any archery will be far less, while the whole addition of 3 will be improbable too. That should make this Shadow more consistent (without removing the fun side).
"Archery: Discard this possession to reveal 3 cards at random from your hand. For each Shadow card you reveal, the minion archery total is +1."
You reduced the Granite Giant's strength from 12 to 11, so now that cost [5] minion (+2 from discard) cannot overwhelm a str 6 guy without a pump. That's fine. And also increased this rock's cost from 0 to 1, and finally to 2. Which is fine too. Now, given that cost increase, it might give str +1 or +2 to make the Granite Giant less easy to kill in skirmish. If so, by paying [2] for the Rock (+3 from discard) the Granite Giant would overwhelm str 6 guys again, and would have a bit better stopping power. The same for the Lavastone Giant (except that it needs +2 str to increase its overwhelming power). Those skirmish and stopping benefits would occur only by not using the Archery skill immediatly, turning it into a threat for a second move instead.
A strength addition will also make it more desirable during the Draft (not only for Giant players, but also if someone draws a Catapult/Bridging Troll).
That's all by now. I'll try to hasten on the rest.
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Great to see you back.
- Lavastone Giant: Great idea! Thanks.
- Boulder Rock: I don't think a stength addition will be useful. The Rock is always discarded during the archery phase and it must be so. Ok for the new effect! Hatred Rekindled helps a lot.
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I need your advice on the 2 other Shadows soon, these cards will be printed this week.
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- Boulder Rock: Ok if you don't want a strength bonus. I know it interferes with the Archery skill, the Shadow player must use one or the other. But I wanted the Giants (and Trolls) to have a skirmish bonus alternative, which also increases stopping power. Still, that might create confusion among players, so it'd be ok if you keep it without strength bonus.
Perhaps you may give it a small and brief playtest on the skirmish & stopping side, with +2 strength.
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I've been working on the Laketown Men, but meanwhile have had a lot of troubles to deal with. I lack a definite response only for Braga and the Spear of the Guard, but at least I know what worries me about those current versions.
Corrupted Men
I think this Shadow does too much: high strength fierce minions, high vitality, big and perdurable pumps, easy damage bonuses. (Dwarves can do little more than decide who'll take the risk, hoping to not be overwhelmed.) That needs some adjust, but what worries me most is the lack of room to counter by the FP player. For instance, if Braga has 2 or 3 weak Orcs, he can spend them before the FP player has any time to kill them in skirmish. That lack of FP maneuverability makes the skills too hard to counter, which adds to their fierce keyword and high base attributes.
These Men's attributes were originally based on [Isengard] Men, but I believe you remodeled them after Decipher's [Sauron] trackers (site 6, moderately high strength & vitality, low twilight). But [Sauron] Orcs aren't fierce, so these Men can deal twice the wounds with the same hard-to-defeat strength. And since their vitality is so high, wounding methods will rarely stop them (they're also not Orcs, so Azanulbizar can touch merely their fuel). I'd reduce their vitality and keep them fierce, so a victorious damage +1 Dwarf (unlikely due to [Men] Men's strength) or direct wounding tricks can prevent them from fighting twice.
- Gangsquad Spies: Perhaps I'd lower its strength to 8. Besides that, seems fine. But I wonder why this minion has a loretext denoting authority, and Laketown Patrol (the real authority) has a loretext denoting observation. So "What are dwarves doing in these parts?" should be in this minion.
- Alfrid's Influence: It's unclear if it's unique or not. I see a unique dot at the right side of the initial "A". This card depends on Gangsquad Spies to be replayed, and also Gangsquad Spies can only be replayed by this condition, so this Shadow seems in great trouble if it gets discarded. Extra copies won't stack, so I'd make it non-unique.
Also, you can change it from "you may play" to "you may take into hand" a [Men] Man from discard. That way, you can take a copy of Gangsquad Spies and retain it for the next site if you fear your Influences will be blasted either after maneuver phase (Sting, Bifur, Accorn), or during maneuver but after removing your Orcs (Azanulbizar / Burning Fir Cones / Tauriel + Ancestral Knowledge), circumstances that unable the Spies to recover it (and thus unable you to later replay the Spies).
- Laketown Patrol: 10 strength, 4 vitality, fierce AND negates weapon bonuses... that's even stronger than Troop of Uruk-hai! Whose combination of attributes and skill makes hard to defeat and erase (even for Gimli!). And since the Patrol also negates weapon bonuses for all Dwarves, erasing it will be a necessity with certain decks. So I think it should either be str 10 vit 2 (hard to defeat, easier to kill by direct wounds), or str 9 vit 3 (easier to defeat, harder to kill). But vit 4 is clearly excessive. Might have another skill to compensate that attribute reduction, something perhaps like Orc Chieftain to incentivize playing the Spear on it.
[3] Laketown Patrol [Men]
Minion • Man
Strength 9 Vitality 3 Site 6
Fierce.
Each [Dwarven] companion loses all strength bonuses from weapons.
Response: If you play a weapon on this minion, add [3] (limit once per turn).
"If you come in peace lay down your arms."
That way, playing a Spear on it from discard during the Shadow phase would need [7] and would return [3] (having the Footman as fuel). Those [3] can be used for more Orc-fuel, for another Man, or for weapons/conditions during Maneuver.
- Spear of the Guard: +2 str only, +3 seems too much for strong and fierce minions. And the damage bonus is abusive, too powerful and too easy to pay. Moreover with Laketown Patrol having 4 vitality points! I believe Laketown Men shouldn't kill by damage, but by multiple skirmishes, or by overwhelming. Then, an alternative is to remove strength bonuses from one follower: "Skirmish: Exert bearer to discard the bottom card of your draw deck. If it is a minion, make a companion lose all strength bonuses from one follower."
The spear's bonus already helps bearer's high base strength (twice per site!), so having also a skill to support bearer seems overkill. So perhaps the exertion-depending skill might be changed to only help another [Men] Man in skirmish, which would give the FP player some degree of maneuver by trying to defeat/wound bearer first. Still, don't know how to mix that with the skill I just proposed, making all fit into 4 or 5 lines.
- Braga: Don't know what to change here. His attributes are well, he only needs to give more maneuver range to the FP player. If his skill would only last during the phase it is used, then the FP player would have a chance to kill some Orcs before [Men] Men take their turn to fight. Still, Men are a bigger threat so the stronger Dwarves will face Braga & Company, assigning weak Dwarves/allies to Orcs, so don't know if that'll be enough maneuver room...
If Braga's skill lasts until regroup, then should be +2 only.
That's all by now.
EDIT: Changes in green.
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Mirkwood Corruption: The conditions seem well balanced by now. However, there are some details that I'd prefer to adjust.
- Ancient Grudge: Much better! By affecting only "Dwarves that skirmish Orcs" you prevent players from reaping the (persistent) benefits with Giants, Men or Smaug. Flavor-wise, it should be "Orc or Spider" (in case those 2 packs meet, you should be able to splash Spider minions in a Mirkwood shadow; Fat Spider being the best!). :up:
- Elven Jails: I think it's fine, but would be stronger if it were a Response skill that triggers "At the start of the regroup phase" instead (with or without a "limit once" per phase). That way it'd act before Bard, the Accorn and Barrels can interfere. But might be too strong that way, so depends on how strong you want it to be.
- The Elvenking: Better. But I still think it'll need to "play a [Mirkwood] or [Gundabad] condition", since all your Mirkwood machinery will be operated by Orkish immigrants :mrgreen:. When your copies of Hatred Rekindled get discarded, you'll have merely the Orc-workers (and copies of HoT) left in hand and draw deck for the production to keep going. Keep in mind that each time Ancestral Knowledge will be discarding 2 conditions, it'll target the Elvenking + a [Gundabad] condition.
- Elf-Guards: The effect with an imprisoned Dwarf is much better than the previous. Disabling doubt-remotion is very strong, but not as strong as adding 2 doubts per discarded Orc. :up:
But I believe the Orc-discarding part needs to act like Ancient Grudge does: only trigger when a FP character loses to an Orc (or to "an Orc or Spider" ;)). I mean, by now can trigger with Smaug, or with Gollum facing Bilbo. Or with Men or Giants (or Nazguls, Wargriders, Sauron) if splashed!
- Borders of the Forest: The healing part is a clever way to make Watchful Orc less easy to kill pre or mid-skirmish. But that other skill seems a bit mild without other conditions. With Orc-Guards, makes Bilbo's skirmish easy to win vs a str 8 Orc, for a doubt. With Elven Jails + [5], you can increase a lot the likelihood of having an Orc alive at regroup. But without those conditions, Bilbo will be fine vs a str 8 Orc with Sting or a follower (Dori being the best) in absence of Shadow pumps, so isn't worrisome at all. Still, mild is ok if we consider Orc-Guards is a very strong corruption engine by itself (and ditto for Ancient Grudge for beatdown).
By itself will be helpful to protect conditions versus Sting + Noble Intentions/Also a Took. The only thing that bothers me a bit is that supplants the Orkish Aggressor, which becomes totally superfluous with it on the board.
With the Mirkwood Shadow already analized, I'm waiting for your replies about it, the Laketown shadow and the strength addition in Boulder Rock (it's more for the Trolls than the Giants ;)).
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Mirkwood Corruption:
- Ancient Grudge: Much better! By affecting only "Dwarves that skirmish Orcs" you prevent players from reaping the (persistent) benefits with Giants, Men or Smaug. Flavor-wise, it should be "Orc or Spider" (in case those 2 packs meet, you should be able to splash Spider minions in a Mirkwood shadow; Fat Spider being the best!). :up:
Yes, but I prefer a simple card. Only Orcs seems fine. And Fat Spider will be great in this Shadow.
- Elven Jails: I think it's fine, but would be stronger if it were a Response skill that triggers "At the start of the regroup phase" instead (with or without a "limit once" per phase). That way it'd act before Bard, the Accorn and Barrels can interfere. But might be too strong that way, so depends on how strong you want it to be.
Don't worry, the card is really good, and Bard will only work on a single exhausted Orc.
- The Elvenking: Better. But I still think it'll need to "play a [Mirkwood] or [Gundabad] condition", since all your Mirkwood machinery will be operated by Orkish immigrants :mrgreen:. When your copies of Hatred Rekindled get discarded, you'll have merely the Orc-workers (and copies of HoT) left in hand and draw deck for the production to keep going. Keep in mind that each time Ancestral Knowledge will be discarding 2 conditions, it'll target the Elvenking + a [Gundabad] condition.
Most of the time, the FP player discards Elvenking + Not At Home. I'm afraid of the too easy splash of the Mirkwood Shadow in other Shadows, that's why it makes much more sense to only have [Mirkwood] on this card. But you're right, when Elvenking and Not at Home are discarded the next site is difficult for the Shadow player, because if you stack a Not at Home in hand you can only use it at the end of the next site. Elvenking will now prevent the discard of the [Mirkwood] and [Gundabad] conditions.
- Elf-Guards: The effect with an imprisoned Dwarf is much better than the previous. Disabling doubt-remotion is very strong, but not as strong as adding 2 doubts per discarded Orc. :up:
But I believe the Orc-discarding part needs to act like Ancient Grudge does: only trigger when a FP character loses to an Orc (or to "an Orc or Spider" ;)). I mean, by now can trigger with Smaug, or with Gollum facing Bilbo. Or with Men or Giants (or Nazguls, Wargriders, Sauron) if splashed!
Sure, a non-Orc minion can win a skirmish and add a doubt with a remaining Orc. But the FP player will always kill the Orcs first and then continue with others skirmishes. And this time, there will be strong splashs (fierce Men, Spiders...) from other Shadows to Mirkwood Shadow (and not the opposite :)). Just adding Spiders makes the card a bit longer to read and retain.
- Borders of the Forest: The healing part is a clever way to make Watchful Orc less easy to kill pre or mid-skirmish. But that other skill seems a bit mild without other conditions. With Orc-Guards, makes Bilbo's skirmish easy to win vs a str 8 Orc, for a doubt. With Elven Jails + [5], you can increase a lot the likelihood of having an Orc alive at regroup. But without those conditions, Bilbo will be fine vs a str 8 Orc with Sting or a follower (Dori being the best) in absence of Shadow pumps, so isn't worrisome at all. Still, mild is ok if we consider Orc-Guards is a very strong corruption engine by itself (and ditto for Ancient Grudge for beatdown).
By itself will be helpful to protect conditions versus Sting + Noble Intentions/Also a Took. The only thing that bothers me a bit is that supplants the Orkish Aggressor, which becomes totally superfluous with it on the board.
Borders of the Forest helps a lot other [Mirkwood] cards. And the Shadow player will try to assign the best Orcs first. If Bilbo always bears Dori + loses a skirmish at each site (=2 wounds per site), it will be difficult to avoid killing wounds.
Even with only Orcs with strength max 8 the FP player will be afraid of a lot of Shadow tools: Anger, Ancient Grudge (2nd part), Goblin Scimitar, Great Goblin, big Orcs from the Swarm Pack 2, Malevolent Orcs, Hidden, Great Goblin's Sceptre, Goblin Archers....
Borders of the Forest is really strong. After many tests, the first part seems necessary for the Watchful Orc. The Orkish Aggressor bring a constant pressure on Bilbo, it often wins its skirmishes or survives until regroup or add just one doubt. It's still the best minion of the Shadow ;).
Stone Giants
- Boulder Rock: Ok if you don't want a strength bonus. I know it interferes with the Archery skill, the Shadow player must use one or the other. But I wanted the Giants (and Trolls) to have a skirmish bonus alternative, which also increases stopping power. Still, that might create confusion among players, so it'd be ok if you keep it without strength bonus.
I prefer only one way, the players will think simpler during games.
I need to make some quick tests with Evil Men before any further replies.
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- Elven Jails: :up:
- Ancient Grudge: Ok. You're right, 8 str Orcs need help to bring troubles to Dwarves, but not Spiders which are strong enough by themselves. :up:
- The Elvenking: My version is splashable, but still costs [3] and protects only [Mirkwood] conditions. Restoring Hatred Rekindled will need [6], which means for many Shadows playing nothing else, or ill-supported minions only to clear the hand. That's too costly for Giants, Men, even swarm Orcs, but for Evil Elves is a matter of survival. Test the Bilbo Pack vs your current version, concentrating the FP efforts (like Balin and especially Old Thrush) on condition control, and I'm sure you'll wish at some point to recover Hatred Rekindled too! :uh-huh:
But being splashable disfavours Mirkwood players in the Draft. So changing the text to enforce that part to corruption Shadows only should make it non-splashable: "When you play this, you may play a [Mirkwood] condition (or [Gundabad] if you spot 3 doubts) from your draw deck or discard pile."
3 lines. The part in red is worded like Secret Sentinels: absolutely optional. As needs 3 doubts, it'll rarely be used at region 1, where you'll also rarely need desperately to recover Hatred Rekindled.
- Borders of the Forest: Agree that it's a great support for other conditions. :up: I guess the Aggressor's role is then to act like this condition while it is absent; 2 different cards assuring the same task is done in every site, that's fine.
Yes, Dori's aid cost + Bilbo losing his fight will mean 2 wounds, but Elrond can reduce them to 1 later; that would force to not double move often, but besides that I see it totally bearable. Bombur might be a better aid for Bilbo then: exerts another companion, and gives Bilbo along with Sting a total of str 7 dmg+1, rendering the Aggressor useless without pumps (in which case you can even use a pump for Dwarves to trigger Sting!), and making most other Orcs defeatable with Noble Intentions.
- Elf-Guards: The problem I see is that it's too easy to splash on other Shadows (more than The Elvenking!), moreover those that use mainly Orcs: Bolg's and Azog's Armies, Goblin-town Archers, Sauron Swarm and Beatdown, Wargriders. This single card can turn any of those into a very efficient Corruption Shadow (besides its own natural goal). With Gollum, Spiders and Smaug, it'll be too easy to corrupt! Kinda interferes with Goblin Swarms, but too will help them to press on Bilbo's resistance (if your Orc wins, you can stack it on the Swarms and also discard another Orc that lost or will lose)... I see it of little use only with The Nazgul and the 3 Trolls.
You can also splash The Elvenking to both get it sooner, and to protect it: it'd be like an optionless Worry for Orcs of any culture, and also protected by Siege Engine! It began to worry me while writting, I think we need to find a balanced way to reduce that potential... If it triggered only at a forest, that'd be enough burden for many of those other Shadow cultures:
"Each time a Free Peoples character loses a skirmish at a forest site, you may discard an Orc from play to add a doubt."
- Boulder Rock: Trolls won't get too much from this (for their own goals) by firing 0 to 3 arrows once in a while; we all know that if arrows happen seldom, FP players can distribute those wounds well. But a strength bonus gives far more advantages to a skirmish Beatdown shadow: your Troll (or Giant) raises its chances to survive if loses, to winn normally, and even to overwhelm. That's especially important if your main need is to stop your opponent's fellowship (even with Giants). It's much more for Trolls, as said before.
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- Borders of the Forest: Yazneg is always a good minion. Dori or another follower may not be such a problem.
- Elf-Guards: The strategy of other Swarm Shadows need to not discard Orcs before regroup (Bolg Shadow, [Moria] Swarm, Spiders...) . Sure, there will be interactions with other Shadows. After many tests, this card seems fine now.
- Boulder Rock: Only the [Moria] Troll can bear it. The rock must be thrown to have an effect.
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The rock must be thrown to have an effect.
- Boulder Rock: Or that extra vitality can fuel their own skills. Those 2 Trolls are Skirmishing machines with self-exerting skills. If they use that extra vitality to fuel the skill another time until getting exhausted, then the Archery skill will either be unused or... will suicide your Troll, only to get 0 to 3 arrows!
So they exclude each other: to use the Archery skill you must NOT use the extra vitality. Not using again those mighty and fancy Troll-skills is a real shame. So since Trolls are Skirmish + Vitality-fueled skill tanks (and not Archery minions), a strength bonus would come in handy for them (as unlike Giants, they'll often retain the Rock).
For Giants, I don't see the problem of adding a small strength bonus (+1 or +2) that players will simply never use in detriment of the much more useful Archery skill.
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- Borders of the Forest: Alright, it's ok. :up:
- The Elvenking: Don't forget about the idea of (re)playing Mirkwood conditions. I'm waiting for your answer.
- Elf-Guards: Not all Shadows need Orcs in play after skirmish phase. Let's see in more detail:
- Goblin Pack: a winning Orc can stack himself on the Goblin Swarms, AND discard another Orc that lost and survived (or that's destined to lose later).
- Goblin Archers can discard Orcs well after firing arrows (and while the Great Goblin gives the option of taking the wound, Elf-Guards doesn't so doubts will stack faster; the Great Goblin will add to that purpose).
- Azog's Army will flood the board with Orcs, and Assaulting Goblin will protect those that lose (a small part of them winning per site = easy corruption!)
- [Sauron] Swarm often shuffles many Orcs into deck... to assure 1 Orc will win, so that Orc will discard himself for 1 doubt. Hidden and all those low-cost [Sauron] Orcs assure an abundance of Orcs to discard, each time 1 happens to win his fight.
- Wargriders can discard another Orc in the first skirmish, and discard themselves in the fierce (it's easy for them to win).
- [Sauron] The Necromancer pumps all Orcs, and can assign them for easy wins (8th victory = Bilbo flees!)
- Gollum is already strong in corruption, accompanies himself with Orcs and wins his skirmishes often.
- The same for Smaug... but he almost never loses his 2 fights!
I was wrong with Bolg's Army and Spiders, as Orcs need to be discarded to use their skills. Nazguls and Trolls too need Orcs as fuel. So I still see it as a very powerful splash for those Shadows in the list!
So limiting it to forests only will be somewhat easy for Mirkwood Elves (Borders needs the same), and will stop all that madness for the rest. Other Shadows would still use it, by using 1 Watchful Orc more than what they usually need (which is sometimes 0, in the case of Sauron or Wargriders). Or when at a natural forest site ;).
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Boulder Rock: It doesn't worth the shot to change the card now for a +2 strength. It brings max +3 archery for (2) (or (5) with the Footman), no card in LOTR does that!
Elf-Guards: As you say, the only problems are the Azog Swarm and Goblin archers (other Shadows are in different Beatdown Packs....). I will change this by discarding only a Gundabad Orc.
Elvenking: The card protects the Gundabad and Mirkwood conditions now.
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Ok for the Elvenking and Elf-Guards. Protecting Gundabad conditions with The Elvenking seems better than my idea. :up:
- Boulder Rock: That's max 3 arrows for Giants, but the Bridging Troll can use its skill once more due to the extra vitality... and will often do (given the built-in prevention). Ending up exhausted, which means "Archery skill = suicide." But if waits a bit longer, can deal 2 wounds by itself (damage +1) plus entertaining a strong defender that'd otherwise likely kill an Orc you just played with its skill. That's 3 wounds! But as a side effect, you're saving 1 Troll on the board, and probably 1 Orc too (for stopping power's sake). And pressing more on the FP defenders (perhaps forming a Swarm).
Meanwhile in the Misty Mountains, Giants will still prefer to toss a Rock during Archery, even with strength bonus. Players will use the Granite Giant's skill (not twice but) thrice, and will see those 6 arrows as little in comparison to the 9 that can get by immolating the Giant. No str bonus can compete with that!
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- Braga: Found a factor that might be used to limit his skill's effect. It allows the FP player to decide, and thus to maneuver it. The pump should be stronger if the Orc that is being used "is NOT assigned to skirmish", that way the FP player can either face Men first to risk lesser pumps with the Orc-fuel, or fight Orcs first trying to kill them but anyone that remains alive will fuel a stronger pump.
I see 2 versions (with examples):
* Change the magnitude: "Skirmish: Place an Orc in play beneath your draw deck to make a [Men] Man strength +2 (or +3 if that Orc is not assigned to skirmish) until the regroup phase."
* Change the duration: "Skirmish: Place an Orc in play beneath your draw deck to make a [Men] Man strength +3 (until the regroup phase if that Orc is not assigned to skirmish)."
(I'm too tired now to think which one is better...)
The point is that Braga shouldn't take away the FP player's chance to try to kill the Orcs first (which currently does!). But also the FP player shouldn't take away Braga's fuel by simply fighting Orcs first, there must be pros and cons in either option to weigh.
In any case, Braga will place Orcs beneath the draw deck (for Alfrid's Influence and the Spear to use) whether the Orcs still don't fight, win their fight or (are going to) lose it. That set-up part of Braga isn't reduced by this proposal at all.
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I don't think there is a problem with Braga. There were no problem during test. Btw, Wicked Spider is far stronger : not unique, better pumps, cheaper, and there are often more Spiders in play than [Men] Men....
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But Braga can burn all Orcs in a single row for +3 str each, without having the FP player anything to do but watch. If Braga is splashed in a Swarm shadow that can play many Orcs with few initial cards and moderate twilight, like Sauron Swarm or Azog's Army, you can burn 5 or 6 Orcs for a total of 24 or 27, overwhelming 2 companions that dare to stand in from of him. I'm thinking about extreme scenarios, which happen seldom but still are a possibility.
Playing Watchful Orc + Azog Commander + 1 Footman in that order from hand or discard in Shadow phase for 11, then get a Vicious Warg on Azog for 14 total, then you'll have 3 Orcs, Azog at vitality 4 and [4]. Then play Braga. At Maneuver, play 3 Assaulting Goblins from discard for a total of 6 well protected Orcs to feed Braga. Whatever are the assignments, and whoever's skirmish starts first, Braga will be able to spend all 6 Orcs for a +18 str bonus, which ALSO lasts during the 2 skirmishes. And the FP fighters will watch and stand frustrated, thinking how they could have beheaded some of those Orcs if they had given the chance...
Such combo can be as powerful as Stragglers. Costs more, but lasts more also. It NEEDS a way to limit it... which is what Decipher forgot with Galadriel LR, Cirdan, Stragglers, Corsairs, Gil Galad HKotN...
Moreover, needs a way to allow the FP fighters to have a word in all those Orcs' fates!
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No difference with the Wicked Spider and Orcs swarm...
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It's different from Wicked Spider, as the only other Swarm pack that can be paired with the Spider pack is the Goblin pack; they cannot colaborate with Azog's Army.
And remember the thread that Phallen opened, showing how easy is to overwhelm site after site with Spider Nest, Old Tomnody and some Orcs. That'll have to be fixed with restrictions, additions and/or prohibitions (since the cards' gametext simply won't be changed). So a minion from the Spider pack is not a good role model, and ALSO they cannot join forces with Azog's maneuver exert-to-play-a-cheap-Orc-for-absolutely-no-twilight-which-also-protects-from-directed-wounds.
Finally, Braga is part of a Beatdown Shadow, so comparing with mechanics like Rise of The Necromancer os Wicked Spider isn't accurate, I believe.
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The [Moria] swarm is the Shadow who brings the maximum number of Orcs in play. Braga is fine like this, +2 strength wasn't enough.
You're wrong, the problem that Phallen opened was mainly on Spider Nest....
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The [Moria] swarm is the Shadow who brings the maximum number of Orcs in play. Braga is fine like this, +2 strength wasn't enough.
Yes, but Moria Orcs need to stack winning Orcs on Goblin Swarms. While Azog's Army needs less cards in hand, less possessions and doesn't play from stacked. That's the key difference: playing over and over again from discard pile, without fearing to lose important resources by discarding Orcs that can win their fights if left to do so.
You're wrong, the problem that Phallen opened was mainly on Spider Nest....
I know Phallen talked about abusing Spider Nest and not Wicked Spider. But both are part of the same Shadow, and both are examples of mechanics that behave well (balanced) when the card pool is limited (Draft game), but can be totally OP when that card pool and the maximum copies of each is widened (constructed).
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I'm only working on the draft game not the constructed. It will be too complicated to playtest this. Braga remains with a +3 pump, or it will be too weak in draft game.
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+3 is totally ok. But must unable the FP player to do anything? You can change it to +4 str even, but the FP player must have some degree of maneuver.
"Skirmish: Place an Orc in play beneath your draw deck to make a [Men] Man strength +3 (until the regroup phase if that Orc is not assigned to skirmish)."
That way, if there are Orcs assigned your pumps won't last 'till regroup. If those Orcs fought and survived, the pump obtained by using them will last until regroup.
I'm starting to believe the Spear shouldn't add damage/exert companions, but instead reduce a Dwarf companion's strength. That way Braga or Laketown Patrol's vitality can help Orcs to win, an if that happens Braga will use them so Men can win.
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I don't like it [-X. Dawn take you All is a great answer to this Shadow. [Men] Shadow is not OP at all for the moment and need a lot of twilight tokens.
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I make another quick test with the [Men] Shadow, it needs more ways to place minions beneath the deck. I think it's fine now.
The Boulder Rock costs only 1. It's the better way if you want a Troll bear it one day.
I change Elf-Guards for [Gundabad] Orcs. I don't know if I have to change all [Mirkwood] cards for [Gundabad] Orcs.... Spiders and Bolg Shadow will help this Shadow in Swarm Packs 1 & 2, but the Sauron Shadow will also help well the Mirkwood Shadow with the Swarm Pack 3. And I don't want to put [Gundabad] or [Sauron] Orcs on [Mirkwood] cards, just Orcs or [Gundabad] Orcs.
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We made the last test today. I will print the current version of the cards tomorrow.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/ShadowPack3.html
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I'm sorry for this new hiatus.
Everything seems fine in those last card modifications, I wouldn't change anything (and I know that's now impossible). Elf-Guards was the only [Mirkwood] card that needed to be weaker, and enforcing it to [Gundabad] Orcs seems the perfect tweak (they don't flood the board with Orcs easily). :up:
Well, I'd only change one thing in that Extension, and that's the name. I think "The Gathering of the Clouds" is too similar to the previous "The Clouds Burst". And that chapter was about the Siege of Erebor, while the themes of these new Shadow packs are more related to the journey towards Erebor and the strange creatures, the remote folks and the lurking perils they found while travelling. It's much more about the road (those places are all in Region 2!), so I'd rename it to "The Road Goes Ever On" (like Bilbo's song in the Hobbit and LOTR books). Another possibility is "The Quest of Erebor".
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Now we can focus on the new Supplementary packs... I had this answer the day after your request, but we were too busy with the Mirkwood shadow.
- The War of the Dwarves and Orcs: The card is too long for the draft. Try to make card with 3-4 card lines maximum.
It can fit well in only 4 lines, if we change "[Dwarven] character(s)" to "Dwarf/Dwarves" and cut some words. But that requires using a policy we were always avoiding: although is totally impossible to exert/wound a Dwarf follower according to the rules, some players might be confused to believe a Hobbit or Wizard bearing a Dwarf follower may be exerted/wounded for that purpose...
[2] The War of the Dwarves and Orcs [Dwarven]
Event • Assignment
Wound X Dwarves to exert a minion X times. (That minion's) Its owner may exert a Dwarf and if (he or she does) so, you may exert a minion; repeat this until a player does not exert a character.
"...there was death and cruel deeds... as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain."
So it'd be necessary to explain new players explicitly that "followers are not characters, and thus cannot exert or take wounds." If not, the only way of reducing the text to 4 lines is to cut the cost to something very short (and ridiculous) like "Add 2 doubts" to "exhaust a minion". That or removing the Death They Cried chain exertion (but I believe it has a great potential).
- Balin's !Armor: I like the idea of healing Balin to use more his skill, but dislike the concept of an armor special for Balin. Besides, Alcarin's immortality text will make it NPE versus almost every Shadow (except only those that can safely remove all Orcs in play: Nazguls, Laketown and Giants). So here goes my version:
[2] Armor of Erebor [Dwarven]
Possession • Armor
Strength +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
The minion archery total is -1.
Each time bearer exerts, you may discard 3 cards from hand (or 2 cards during the fellowship phase) to heal him.
"So my grandfather's halls became full of armour and jewels and carvings and cups..."
The idea is to use self-exerting companions without having to self-exhaust. That makes it only a str +1 toy for Thorin, but other Dwarves will also boost their skills: Glóin, Dwalin, Kili and Fili. And above them all, Balin recycling key events during fellowship phase. Helps also with some aid costs, events and the special abilities of other support cards.
It's based on the first version of the Dwarven Cloak (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9099.msg91209/topicseen.html#msg91209) (which discarded 2 [Dwarven] cards to prevent an exertion wound token), but since the Balin Pack will need those [Dwarven] cards in hand (either as powerful tricks, or as fuel for the Chariot and followers) and will also cycle a lot, discarding non- [Dwarven] ones seems important to diversify the resources (and cycle even more btw). Ori will provide hand extension.
Tell me what you think.
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I wait for the Hobbit Draft Game Championship. We will see then which card must be improved or not.
At the moment, we need to focus on the improvement of these cards:
- Lore of Imladris
- Noble Intentions (fighting Bilbo)
- To Me! O My Kinsfolk!
- Nori (not necessary, the companion has good stats)
- Ori (and Balin)
- some [Gandalf] events
- more Trolls
- the combo Sauron and an Orc damage +1 is very strong
- maybe another Gollum minion
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Alright. We can work on those subjects then. I got some ideas by now to post, will be working on the rest in the following days (or weeks, if things don't go as expected):
- Ori (and Balin): We already got some cards for Balin (Brothers in Arms, Flash-flames, the Armor), but Ori is much more complicated. His main problem is the lack of an important effect to counter risks (heal, prevent wounds / overwhelming, counter conditions), so players don't want to waste one of those scarce 3 safe slots for [Dwarven] followers on him (once better followers arrive). If there was a way to create an artificial safe slot for Ori, then everyone would want to keep him in play. A good card to bear such text is obviously Ori's Slingshot:
[1] •Ori's Slingshot [Dwarven]
(https://s1.postimg.org/7ot8wyfncv/01.23.15_Oris_Slingshot.jpg)
Possession • Support Area
Shadow players cannot spot Ori for the total number of [Dwarven] followers.
Fellowship: Play Ori from your draw deck.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] card from hand to make a minion strength -1.
Somewhat the opposite of Merry / Pippin ITBOH. The underlined parts are the important ones, the rest is merely an example. To enhance also Balin, it might heal Balin each time Ori is attached to him (replacing the Skirmish skill probably).
- Sauron + a dmg+1 Orc: That's only with Fimbul, or with the [Sauron] or "Swarm pack 2" versions of Azog/Bolg. But agree, that combo is like Saruman SotE + Saruman's Staff: a strong support-companions killer. Some card might counter either Sauron's skill or his vitality, and thus block him (and any combo including him). I made a [Gandalf] event that can do both:
[2] Instigated Dispute [Gandalf]
(https://s1.postimg.org/6y6hr1kovj/Trolls_fight.png)
Event • Response
If a minion uses an action of its game text, exert Gandalf to cancel its effect.
That minion's owner must either exert it or prevent it from using actions of its game text until the regroup phase.
"That I never did! It was you!"
So this taxes Sauron if he dares to uses his skill: he either won't use that skill anymore, or will have only 1 spare viality remaining for it (or 2 with the [Sauron] Ring of Thrór). This event counters both special abilities and "when you play this" / "each time" actions, so can block William/Cantea from discarding a weapon, Bert/Lemenya from discarding allies, Orkish Marauder from exhausting a Dwarf (if you got 4+ [Dwarven] followers), Fimbul from playing a minion... it's quite versatile.
Can block the Watchful Orc from adding a site keyword and thus disrupt whole chains, but since that action is at Shadow phase this [Gandalf] card's cost will often allow another such Orc to be played, which brings some balance.
To counter Sauron (and any other vitality-based post-archery minion), we also have The War of the Dwarves and Orcs / Flash-flames.
- Another [Gollum] minion: All the options I can see are the dying Orkish Aggressor, a bat in Goblin-town (although those are bad pictures, except perhaps at 48fps), or another version of Gollum. If we broaden it to possessions, then Gollum's boat, a small throwing rock or some bones. The dying Goblin might work as Sudden Strike here:
[2] Moribund Goblin [Gollum]
Minion • Orc
Strength 4 Vitality 1 Site 4
Shadow: Discard this minion to take into your hand a Shadow card from your draw deck (or 2 Shadow cards if at least one is a [Gollum] card).
"...there was no reason to go that way - unless the Great Goblin sent them... for fish from the lake, and sometimes neither goblin nor fish came back."
A mightier version of Fimbul: easier to play and can search for any card.
That's all by now.
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- Noble Intentions (fighting Bilbo): I'm not sure of what you exactly mean here. Do you want 1) new standalone fighting cards that can work in absence of Noble Intentions, or 2) new cards that improve the effect of Noble Intentions? The point is if you want Bilbo to fight more at the expense of replacing Noble Intentions (since moderate standalone pumps can complement Noble Intentions, but will replace it instead if are considerably stronger). Assuming you want a balance between both, I made this possession for him (probably for the Blue Mountains pack):
(0) •Dwarven Handkerchief [Dwarven]
(https://s1.postimg.org/6h8zbgw2nz/00.45.46.jpg)
Possession
Bearer must be Bilbo.
Each time Bilbo wins a skirmish, you may heal a [Dwarven] companion.
Skirmish: Play a [Dwarven] event to make Bilbo strength +1 (or discard a [Dwarven] event from hand to make him strength +2).
"But home is now behind you. The world is ahead."
So this makes Noble Intentions a much stronger pump (total str+4 and can also heal the exertion), and can convert any other [Dwarven] event into a smaller str +2 pump. And since he can heal Dwarves a la Legolas AoM, he gets a good incentive to fight often. You can even play a Dwarf pump to make him str +1 merely, hoping to win and then trigger Sting (which won't happen if you discard the event). All in all, Bilbo becomes a much better fighter but also !Noble Intentions is NOT replaced by the new pumps.
In the sense of #1, you can change slightly the text of Also A Took to make it also viable if he starts the skirmish (not replacing a Dwarf), it'd be like Noble Intentions (but instead of exerting would cost [2]):
[2] Also A Took [Dwarven]
Event • Skirmish
Make Bilbo strength +3. If he is not assigned to a skirmish, have him replace a [Dwarven] companion in a skirmish and make he may take no more than 1 wound during that skirmish.
"It never ceases to amaze me. The courage of Hobbits."
Might even be the opposite: make him unable to take more than 1 wound in any case, and if replaces a Dwarf in skirmish, also strength +3. That way won't compete with Noble Intentions, while providing a useful resource in his own skirmishes (and a way to trigger Sting). But that way won't make Bilbo a considerably better fighter.
Another aspect that makes Bilbo fight less than his Dwarf fellows is the lack of damage bonus: if he happens to win his fight, most of the times the losing minion should pursue the Company if they move again that turn. (Unless Orcrist finishes it.)
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- Ori: the 3 [Dwarven] followers limit was made to avoid too long maneuver phase. This limit must still be on Ori, I just want to improve his usefulness. The current version of Ori's Slingshot seems great:
3x [1] •Ori's Slingshot [Dwarven]
Possession • Ranged Weapon
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion.
Archery: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to wound a minion once (or twice if the [Dwarven] follower is Ori).
Ori's weapon often hurted the focus of his foes.
Maybe another card using Ori (and Balin)?
- Sauron + a dmg+1 Orc: You're right, it happens during the last Hobbit Draft Game Championship (Beatdown Pack 2 with both packs with Azog and Bolg).
The term "action of its game text" seems generator of many questions from players.
[4] Instigated Dispute [Gandalf]
Event • Maneuver
Exert Gandalf to remove the game text from a minion until the regroup phase.
"That I never did! It was you!"
- Sorry I meant another Gollum version.
- Noble Intentions (fighting Bilbo): It's the 2) ;).
(0) •Dwarven Handkerchief [Dwarven]
Possession
Bearer must be Bilbo.
Each time Bilbo wins a skirmish, you may heal a [Dwarven] companion.
Skirmish: Play a [Dwarven] event to make Bilbo strength +1 (or discard a [Dwarven] event from hand to make him strength +2).
"But home is now behind you. The world is ahead."
Great card!! I'll try to think of another possession. A handkerchief seems ridiculous for such a possession.
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- Another Gollum: Alright. Which pack should carry it? I believe it'd bring a strong flavor in the Rivendell pack, along with Sauron: 2 evil Ring-bearers trying to get some Rings back. Paired also with some FP card portraying Bilbo being fated to find the One Ring. That'd need to move the Warg to another pack.
- Noble Intentions: I believe each pack should have 1 card (at least) that boosts this event. The Travellers and Blue Mountains packs would have the Dwarven Cloak and the Handkerchief. If you agree, we'd need to create one for Balin and another for Rivendell.
- Ori: If Ori had no aid cost at all, the decision of attaching him o-r not would be automatic ("free samples? I want one!"), remaining only the decision of to which companion (who needs him more, and who carries less risk of dying and thus losing Ori). But the combo with Balin leans the scale strongly towards him (gathers important resources, which can also be used immedialty to attach other followers), so being costless it'd be almost always an automatic "yes, and to Balin!". So attaching him as the 4th safe [Dwarven] follower would need few seconds, while bringing fresh resoures and good synergies.
I dislike your version of the Slingshot, not because of the gametext but because the slingshot couldn't hurt even an Orc in the films (he only annoyed and distracted); wounding any minion (Smaug?) twice is absurd. Direct wounding fits much better for a killing machine like the Iron Hills Chariot (it beheads 6 Ogres in a row!), so I'd exchange it with the current text of the Slingshot (and add some sauce of my own recipe, of course ;)):
[1] •Ori's Slingshot [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
You may attach Ori without paying his aid cost, and Shadow players cannot spot him for the total number of [Dwarven] followers.
Fellowship: Play Ori from your draw deck.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] event from hand to make a minion strength -2.
[3] •Iron Hills Chariot [Dwarven]
Possession • Support Area
You may play To Me! O My Kinsfolk! during the skirmish phase.
Skirmish: Discard a [Dwarven] follower to wound a minion (or 2 minions if that follower was attached).
"Hold tight, lads!"
Worded like For the Mark. So TMOMK becomes a wounding event!
Maybe another card using Ori (and Balin)?
I think not. There are no good pictures of the East Gate of Moria, nor any mention of the future colonization. I cannot think yet of another thing about Balin and Ori. :(
- Dwarven Handkerchief: I'm glad you like the skills. Yes, is a bit ridiculous but couldn't find anything better: must be something to show Bilbo (his Baggins side) that he won't find the comforts of home and will have to fight all along and get his hands dirty. Perhaps a walking stick or a pack on his back... but not a Cloak or the Contract (for obvious reasons). There's not much more in the films, so I guess that dirty handkerchief has a charming side after all. ;)
- Instigated Dispute: Your version blocks Bert/Lemenya but not William/Cantea (that's before maneuver events take place). To cover them it needs to be a Response event. A clearer wording can be "If a minion uses a special ability or an optional triggered action." I believe it's also important to exclude keywords (would be too powerful vs Smaug or Wargriders) and non-optional triggered effects (like Sauron's "Orcs are strength +1 and fierce" or even Smaug's "Discard Smaug if not at a mountain"), which would be erased if this event removes the whole game text.
[3] Instigated Dispute [Gandalf]
Event • Response
If a minion uses a special ability or an optional triggered action, exert Gandalf to cancel its effect. That minion cannot use special abilities or triggered actions until the regroup phase.
"That I never did! It was you!"
If you still prefer to erase the gametext (as the "until the regroup phase" part), then your version would be better with the addition of "(except keywords)" to not nullify Smaug so easily (my version cannot target Smaug since he has no action to trigger before regroup).
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- Nori: His skill is simply too expensive. You can create all sorts of OP Shadow possessions to incentivize its use, and still it'll be often unpayable. He barely has the vitality to use it, which creates 2 problems:
* He must have no wounds at all in order to use it. That means preserving him from archery and regroup wounds, and often from skirmishes since an unexpected pump can disrupt everything (until new healing).
* He ends up exhausted after using it, becoming an easy victim of Sauron, a swarm or an unexpected pump.
Those add to the total absence of support area Shadow possessions. That means he must expect for a Shadow possession to be played that same turn, and must then ponder if it's strong enough to be worthy of those 2 exertions + ditching a follower. Often the remedy will be worse than the disease (Orkish Bow, Goblin Bow, Goblin Scimitar), and in any case he must wait and preserve his whole vitality... or quit all the expectation and join the battle (as a real Son of Durin would do!).
Fortunately, there's solution for those 2 problems:
- A card that gives him vitality. But not a follower (they return to support area) nor a condition, so must be an item (or perhaps an ally with a text like Little Golden Flower, but lacking the "vitality +1" symbol on the affected character is a bit ugly).
- A mechanism that prevents wound tokens when exerting. Or that heals them immediatly after. In absence of that, a way to protect from that last killing wound (like Bofur), but that's far from ideal.
So merging those with the "Armor of Erebor" meant to boost Balin, we get a card like this one:
[3] Battle Ram [Dwarven]
Possession • Mount
Strength +1 Vitality +1
Bearer must be a [Dwarven] character.
Each time bearer exerts or wins a skirmish, you may discard 3 cards from hand to heal him.
Skirmish: Exert bearer to make him damage +1.
"...but they held on... and rushed forward to battle."
(The bonuses are like Shadowfax GotM (str+1, vit+1) or Gondorian Steed (str+1, dmg+1); Asfaloth SB heals bearer by ditching resources.)
As with the Armor of Erebor, the healing skill supports self-exerting companions (Balin, Glóin, Dwalin, Kili), but having a vitality bonus gives Nori a much greater degree of action. With an item built like this mount and also new Support Area shadow possessions, Nori's skill will gain much more use and importance.
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I update the Travellers Pack and the Elrond Pack.
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Minor issue, but Beorn says: "Each time bearer wins a skimirsh" rather than "skirmish".
Doesn't the wording of !Goblin Runner mean he can spot himself? Minions like Gorgoroth Agitator specify "another Besieger".
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Thanks for the mistake on Beorn.
You're right, it must be "another [Moria] card".
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True, twice thanks Dictionary!
Now, that's the card image and the intended effect. About the coded version, don't know still, haven't faced a single chance when the Runner is played without another [Moria] card on the board. We have to keep playtesting it. But seems to me that the coded does what you corrected us: "spot another [Moria] card."
Confirmed. The Gemp version needs to spot "another [Moria] card." :up:
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I made the card images of the Travellers Pack and the Elrond Pack. Most cards could change soon, I'm not completly satisfied about them.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/LastPacks.html
Moria Swarm seems to be the weakest Shadow at the Championship, we need to add cards which will make Moria Swarm better.
We also have to change Gandalf LoD (too weak). Maybe this
Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Cost : 1, Strength : 7, Vitality 4
The twilight cost of each [Dwarven] companion is -1
Each time you play a [Gandalf] event, you may add a doubt to take a skirmish [Dwarven] event (or an artifact) from your discard pile into hand.
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Some concept ideas to base some future expansions around- (and a card idea or two for each one)
1. The corruption of the Arkenstone
Consumed
Cost: 2, Condition, Shadow
Plays on Throrin. Followers may not be attached to bearer. Regroup- You may exert bilbo and add a doubt to discard this condition.
One last time
Cost: 2, Event, Free Peoples
Disard the Arkenstone. If you do, all dwarves gain +2 strength and damage +1 until the regroup phase
2. Radagasts Forest
*Radagast's Sled
Cost 2, Possession
Discard this posession to cancel a skirmish involving Gandalf or Radagast.
If a follower or ally is about to be discarded, discard this possession to prevent that.
3. Riddles in the dark
*Times Up
Cost 1, Condition, Gollum
If you can spot more (Gollum) cards than (Shire) cards, Gollum is strength +2 and fierce
*In his pocketses
Cost 1, event, Shire
Put on the one ring to discard gollum and discard a gollum condition
4. Dwarven Feast
Hospitality
Cost 2, event, Shire
You may exert Bilbo and spot X (Dwarven) followers to heal X (Dwarven) companions.
Beyond your front door
Cost 2, event, Shire
Spot Gandalf and add 2 doubts to put a (Shire) Follower, (Shire) possession, and (Shire) event into hand from your draw deck.
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I'll miss the old Leader of Dwarves, as I kinda like his theme. I don't suppose minor buffs, such as strength 8 over 7 or "Exert a Dwarf and discard a [dwarf] follower" rather than "discard 2 [dwarf] followers" would help?
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I'll miss the old Leader of Dwarves, as I kinda like his theme. I don't suppose minor buffs, such as strength 8 over 7 or "Exert a Dwarf and discard a [dwarf] follower" rather than "discard 2 [dwarf] followers" would help?
Ok we can make a better Gandalf, but similar to the old one.
Thanks Chrispy, but the new cards will be other supplementary packs. Previous ones are here http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Boosters.html
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I agree with Dictionary, it should be only an enhancement and not a complete new card (that'd also need a much more playtesting). And agree also with his idea of "discard a [Dwarven] follower" and exert someone, instead of getting rid of 2/3 of your safe number of support Dwarves.
Another thing is that players don't want to lose Glamdring. So if he got a way to replay artifacts (or [Gandalf] ones at least), players will willfully lose him at 5 to remove all wounds from him. So here is my version:
[4] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Fellowhsip: Exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf from your draw deck (limit 1).
Maneuver: Discard a [Dwarven] follower and exert a companion to play Gandalf (or an artifact) from your discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
The 1st skill was turned from "play a Dwarf companion" to simply "play a Dwarf", to include also followers (isn't he the Leader of all Dwarves in the Company?). Was also turned into a Fellowship phase action, because that way it uses 2 lines instead of 3, so the total gametext uses 6 like the current version (leaving 1 for lore).
The 2nd skill's cost was changed the way Dictionary suggests, while the effect is broadened to artifacts as well. That way, this Gandalf will be the preferred to counter a surprise attack of Riddles in the Dark (The Grey can do so, but this one acts sooner at maneuver and with a lesser cost). Replaying Glamdring is key to make this new version of Gandy appealing.
Note that if you want to play an artifact from discard, you must spot Gandalf (he cannot be in discard).
@Chrispy77: There's now a really scarce room for new cards. Those come in "Supplementary Packs" of 6 new FP cards, 2 new Shadow ones and 1 site (9 different cards, whose copies sum 22 in the Pack). We're working on 4 new such packs, and Enola says those will be the last ever (I disagree with that last part, but well, he's the boss).
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This is kinda simple, but I might suggest something like this:
[4] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 8 Vitality 4
Wise.
At the start of each of your turns, you may exert Gandalf to play a Dwarf from your draw deck.
Maneuver: Discard 2 [Dwarven] followers and play Gandalf from your discard pile to make each [Dwarven] companion strength + 2 until the end of the turn.
If losing Glamdring is the problem, you can make him like Radagast and punish the opponent for discarding him. Buff lasts if you double, which goes with !LoD's Follower synergy, as they also stay if you double. +1 strength makes him less dependant on equipment. This gives him more follower/strength synergy and focus, and avoids similarity with The Grey.
I don't know much about your design intent and philosophy, so I apologise in advance if this seems off the mark.
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Interesting idea. But I fear it would use 8 lines if made graphic, so cannot fit into a 7-lines Decipher-style card. Anyway, that can be fixed by changing the skills a bit, or removing unnedeed words.
The "design philosophy" we use needs cards to fit into those 7 lines or less, and also Gandalf (and all Wise allies) is a bit complicated since the Wise keyword uses 1 line by itself alone (Enola doesn't want Keywords sharing the same line with other gametext; cards are easier to read that way). Most of the times, cards should use 5 lines only, to be much easier to read and understand during the Draft procedure.
I use this method to predict a text card's length when turned into graphical (curiously, after 3 years of working as his shieldman, we never talked a word about our methods): Game text lines are compared in MS Notepad (yes, the rusty ol' text editor!) using a standard font, versus a Decipher card line which saturates the whole line room. I chose the 1st of Mighty Steed for that task:
"If Gandalf is not assigned to a skirmish," (without the quotation marks!)
That'd be the max text that a line can hold. If a card uses bold text, those words are slightly wider so I add 1 space to them if are short ("Fellowship", "Regroup", "archer") or 2 if are long (like "Assignment:"): "Fellowhship:_" instead of "Fellowship:" and "Assignment:__" instead of "Assignment:".
The same is done with loretext, but cards use a much smaller font for that text. Enola now uses only 2 lines max for loretext (previously used more if gametext allowed, but found 2 lines for loretext are much easier to adjust when creating the graphic card). I like for that task this Decipher line (which comes from Ulaire Nertea Thrall of The One):
""...into their minds a darkness came, and they thought " (without the outter quotation marks!)
So using that primitive method, most of the times my predicitions coincide with Enola's graphic cards' limits and lengths. So you can use it for your card ideas... cards made that way fit (almost always!) into graphic Decipher-format ones, so you might event start your own project and print to play with friends!
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I got this (based on the "Alter2" Gandalf, of yesterday's dialogue):
[1] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Each time a Dwarf heals, wound a minion.
Fellowship: Exert Gandalf and a Dwarf companion to play an artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
The Fellowship skill is like The Grey's, except that The Grey "adds 2 doubts" as cost and as effect can also play Dwarf companions.
So paired with Radagast/Saruman or AWINL to replay after site 5, he'll return totally healed, and his Fellowship skill will return Glamdring/Wizard Staff. It can also return The One Ring or Sting if lost versus Riddles in the Dark, at a not-so-low cost, but also not so steep as Gandalf the Grey's "add 2 doubts".
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Ok this could be the best one. I can't answer more yet (have to go to work soon), but I also propose this
[1] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Fellowship or Regroup: Discard 2 [Gandalf] cards from hand to take a card from your discard pile into hand.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
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I fear that skill will be very hard to use in Draft games: needs you to hold 2 [Gandalf] cards (Main Deck has 4 events, and that's all!), which also don't get you more with their own gametexts... curiously, that begins to happen once Gandalf is discarded at site 5 (and stops once he's replayed).
Also, the only FP characters I can see working at some extent for the Shadow side are Thorin and Thrór (Dragon-sickness), Thranduil, the Master of Lake-town and perhaps Saruman. But all under very specific circumstances, and with a short range of evilness. Doesn't make much sense to me that Gandalf should support your Shadow side (although I confess would be great to see for game mechanics).
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You're right. Maybe this:
Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves
Cost : 1, Strength : 7, Vitality 4
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Each time you play a [Gandalf] event, you may add a doubt to draw 2 cards.
Fellowship: Add [4] to play a [Gandalf] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
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I dislike it. The drawing skill seems too costly and superfluous (all but 1 [Gandalf] event are played after Fellowship phase). The artifact playing part seems better, but twilight isn't scarce in the Hobbit Game (one of its best aspects!) so won't solve a choke problem that doesn't exist, AND also adding [6] for a Glamdring/Staff (or [4] for Narya) that won't do anything to counter a swarm is too steep a cost: change it to [2] only (I'd prefer "exert Gandalf, but simply there's no room). Also, he's not Wise!
There's a wounding Gandalf, but still there's no healing Wizard (in films he heals Thorin at the Carrock and Thráin at Dol Guldur; in the book it's said he "had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound"). A side effect of that skill might be some card drawing (since this one shares the same limitation of Friend of Thorin)...
[1] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Fellowship: Add [2] to play a [Gandalf] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
Regroup: Discard a [Gandalf] event from hand to heal a character and draw a card.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
The healing would synergize with self-exerting companions (Glóin, Balin, even Nori). But being at Regroup, would be too late to save a defender that couldn't survive by his/her own means.
Also, the healing of allies is really underdeveloped: only Elrond (or another Wise ally) can heal well and often; it's very hard for some (Bard with the Emeralds, Thranduil with a 2nd copy) while for all others is impossible (Legolas, Tauriel and the Elf Army), which limits the deckbuilding versatility in Gemp. So this would come to help ally-intensive decks.
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To not let time pass by without any progress in the other topics...
- Vilya: I like this card, turns Lore of Imladris into a pump. But I believe it should have a "limit -2 per minion", or -4 at the very least, because otherwise Ori + a single LoI will easily reduce Smaug to mere str 11 (equal to Thorin + Orcrist + Óin). Sauron is 4 points weaker than Smaug, so this is worrisome without limits (like happened with Cirdan, Arwen QoEaM, Fifth Level and all that OP trash...).
With the current wording, won't work with Elrond's regroup skill; it triggers, but dissapears at the end of that same phase. So to fix that, you can specifying "until the next regroup phase."
(0) •Vilya [Elven]
Artifact • Ring
Vitality +1
Bearer must be Elrond.
Gandalf cannot be discarded.
Each time you heal a [Dwarven] companion, make a minion strength -2 until the next regroup phase (limit -4 per minion).
"But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise..."
The gametext fits into 4 lines, so you can have Hadafang's "Gandalf cannot be discarded" here instead (since the Three Rings gave power to preserve, that skill should fit better here than with a weapon). That'd make some room for "Elrond is damage +1", or for some longer Assignment text in Hadafang.
- Sauron: I dislike that Black Lord text here, a cost reduction is great for the Witch's [8] but Sauron is cheap enough already. The doubt adding effect and its trigger are OK, but the cost of revealing himself from hand forces him to hide in hand while others do the dirty job, which is sad for the most feared being in all Middle-Earth. Unlike Black Lord, who can be revealed and later played in the same turn, so it's better to simply ditch that revealing cost and keep the effect.
Also, he should be a beatdown monster so he needs the classic "Fierce. Damage +1." (I know you don't want a change in attributes, and those are NOT attributes.) He also needs a skill to allow him to counter Vilya's strength reduction (otherwise 1x mere Lore of Imladris will bring him to mere str 9, weaker than Elrond + Hadafang!). Something like this:
[5] •Sauron, Gathering All Rings to His Hand [Sauron]
Minion • Maia
Strength 13 Vitality 4 Site 5
Fierce. Damage +1.
Sauron is strength +2 for each Ring artifact you can spot.
Each time an [Elven] or [Gandalf] character loses a skirmish., you may reveal this card from hand to add a doubt.
"Soon he will be too strong for you... for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three."
- Hadafang: With such potential to summon Elrond himself, should cost [2]. Also, if you still don't have the required 4 doubts, there should be a desperate built-in way to add them.
[2] •Hadafang [Elven]
Artifact • Hand Weapon
Strength +2
Bearer must be Elrond.
Gandalf cannot be discarded He is damage +1.
Assignment: Add 2 (or spot 4) doubts and exert Elrond to make him participate in skirmishes until the regroup phase.
"In the hour that Isildur took the Ring... this doom was wrought, that Sauron should return."
If you move "Gandalf cannot be discarded" to Vilya as suggested above, this weapon might give Elrond damage +1.
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A healing Gandalf will make Lore of Imladris weaker :(. Another proposition
[1] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Any game text....
Fellowship: Remove from the game 2 [Gandalf] events in your discard pile to draw 3 cards. (2 lines)
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
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Also, the healing of allies is really underdeveloped: only Elrond (or another Wise ally) can heal well and often; it's very hard for some (Bard with the Emeralds, Thranduil with a 2nd copy) while for all others is impossible (Legolas, Tauriel and the Elf Army), which limits the deckbuilding versatility in Gemp. So this would come to help ally-intensive decks.
I’ve been playing an [elven] ally themed deck on Gemp recently. I really like how they contribute to the game without being part of the fellowship. Between their game texts, home sites, Skilful Negotiator and The Evil Becomes Stronger, a player can have them getting involved quite a lot. The Evil Becomes Stronger and Take up Arms also give them nice strength bonuses.
I would like to reiterate this point of Durin’s Heir’s though; lack of healing makes it hard to keep them sustainable. Once exhausted they are much harder to use effectively, and Narzug can of course hit them quite hard prior to combat (Or force Tauriel to bounce him, but then he’ll come out next turn regardless). Would it be possible to append healing to a card to give players more options? I would suggest Gandalf, but with the title “Leader of Dwarves” it doesn’t really fit. Maybe Thranduil?
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I can't change Thranduil, he is in a supplementary pack.
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Was this set tested without the 1, 2, and 3x card restrictions? I get that it was designed for a draft style of play, I find the restrictions to be arbitrary when building a deck and it really hampers strategic choices. I'd love to see a version of this be playable with 4x copies of all legal cards.
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Was this set tested without the 1, 2, and 3x card restrictions? I get that it was designed for a draft style of play, I find the restrictions to be arbitrary when building a deck and it really hampers strategic choices. I'd love to see a version of this be playable with 4x copies of all legal cards.
I didn't test the game with 4x copies of all legal cards. But the main deck needs only one copy of each [Dwarven] companion or there will be problem with some cards (ex: Elven Jails (http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/Mirkwood_Elven_Jails.png)).
If you have 4x Dwarven Axe or 4x Acorn, it will be too strong. The game was fully tested for a draft format.
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I don't think the Dwarven Axes are overpowered at 4x. Acorn might be, but there are ways around that. Particularly for the condition discard ability, perhaps add a shadow card that can prevent condition discarding or force the Freeps player to pay an additional cost in order to do so?
I guess the point I'm making is this is an amazing set and with just a little tweaking, could fit better into Gemp's traditional non-Draft format, which is where I think the bulk of players are experiencing this set.
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I can't add cards to the current format :(, I don't want cards for the constructed and cards for the draft game. We can only work on copies.
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Particularly for the condition discard ability, perhaps add a shadow card that can prevent condition discarding or force the Freeps player to pay an additional cost in order to do so?
There's Bert to counter condition discarding. So he can already counter the Acorn, as long as he survives 'till regroup and there's an ally in play.
I can't change Thranduil, he is in a supplementary pack.
Why not? It'd be a small change in a card that interacts mostly with its own pack... if you were going to playtest extensively, such change would require much less playtesting than a change in one version of Gandalf (since he interacts with everything, and thus every possible combo would need an empirical test).
A simple addition, like "At the start of your turn, you may add [2] to heal an ally whose home site is 5." (2 lines, exactly what he has free.) [2] is not a small cost (before Shadow phase!), and would cover that lack of healing for Mirkwood Elves.
Mirkwood Elves have not a single way to heal, unlike Esgaroth and White Council allies, and Radagast. Even Dain Ironfoot has some degree of healing, and he and the Iron Hills Army are supposed to help more at site 9 than anywhere else (at that stage, healing allies matter little if any).
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A healing Gandalf will make Lore of Imladris weaker :(.
Hmmm, yeah, Lore of Imladris needs enhancement, not hindering. So perhaps this will aim better:
[1] •Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves [Gandalf]
Companion • Wizard
Strength 7 Vitality 4
Wise.
Each Dwarf companion is twilight cost -1.
Each time a Dwarf heals, you may draw a card.
Fellowship: Add [2] to play a [Gandalf] artifact from your draw deck or discard pile.
"You do know my name... I am Gandalf."
So healing becomes drawing! And thus Lore of Imladris and Óin will draw at Maneuver, and Elrond at Regroup. But most surprisingly, sanctuaries become drawing machines (exempt of the Rule of 4)! That means a huge lot of drawing, which can also be added to Ori + Balin. To set up much sooner both your FP and your Shadow, and assemble killer Shadow hands later (you wanted both more participateion of Ori, and a Gandalf that could also help the Shadow side)!
The Fellowship skill is already known: pay [4] in total to get Glamdring/Staff from the very start, or to recover it if gets discarded. At site 5+, you need [1] to replay Gandalf with Radagast (or [2] with AWINL), plus [4] for Glamdring: [5] or [6] seems a good cost for a fully healed str 9 Wizard (and makes site 6 much more interesting, since it's often a choke site otherwise).
Please tell me what you think about it.
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I don't want to change any card which is already printed (except Gandalf, due to its major impact in game and it's only a 1x). Many players own the cards, and I don't want to change them or make cards only for the constructed game.
You said before that drawing after fellowship phase was useless, so it will be good only in sanctuaries and not for Lore of Imladris...
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I don't want to change any card which is already printed ...
I'm not sure I understand why you can't change cards or add new ones. What do you mean players "own the cards"? Are people buying these from you? Because if all a card update means is people have to download and re-print a few cards, I hardly see that as a real hurdle.
Also, Gemp is the main venue people are playing this set, and the last real haven for LOTRTCG which is a dead game everywhere else. I feel like it would serve the community best to focus on making this a standard deck-building set as opposed to draft only.
Building a deck for this set in Gemp is really unintuitive due to all the card restrictions. At the very minimum, remove the restrictions in Gemp and let people test it with a typical 4x card limit on all but 1 or 2 cards.
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Several players own physical gaming Hobbit Draft Game cards (and those are not cheap cards, but LOTR TCG quality). The complete game is worth 300 euros (only due to cards creation).
We made many tests for the draft game, and it's seems well balanced. We need more feedbacks on online games to make changes.
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The game was doing fine before it was on Gemp. I am of the (probably unpopular) opinion that it's okay if The Hobbit can't work in Constructed. It can become a draft game with the technique MarcinS or Enola have outlined and be a league-only format. It is the responsibility of Gemp players to make The Hobbit work on Gemp, not the game's creators' responsibility to change the fundamental gameplay. If the cards are balanced for The Hobbit Draft, there's no reason to change them even if they're wildly overpowered in constructed. That's the whole point of restricting card quantities so much - to find that balance. There's no reason to change any of the cards if they work in draft, we've got to continue balancing the cards as they are. Maybe that means more copies of many cards and fewer copies of some, but that's probably a debate for another post.
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Thanks a lot Phallen, you're right. The game must work as it was done. R-list and X-list are our way to make it balanced in a constructed format.
I will only change one card: Gandalf, Leader of Dwarves not because he is unbalanced (he is well balanced), but only because he isn't liked by players. Moreover, Gandalf is the key character in a deck strategy and he is only in 2 copies (for 8 players) in printed cards, other cards could be up to 16 copies.
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I see you want more [Gandalf] Skirmish events for Leader of Dwarves to use. That's great! I found 2 events in my vault of old ideas which might be worth of posting now... they'd fit thematically in the Travellers or Elrond packs.
This by no means implies that I abandoned my idea of him working with Fellowship or Skirmish events... there's only 1 [Gandalf] skirmish event in all the 8x currently available Supplementary Packs (and this move of yours might raise it only to 3x in 12 Packs), so those Packs cannot be a reliable source to increase the small amount of [Gandalf] skirmish events you'll have in the Draft. The randomness is too high if your base is 2 copies which can raise to max 6 (Skirmish only), but is much better if starts with 3 copies and can get up to 9 (with the addition of Fellowship). Still, here they go:
[1] No Finer Blade [Gandalf] (Travellers Pack, preferrably)
(https://s10.postimg.org/ki411yzcp/No_finer_blade.jpg)
Event • Skirmish
Choose one: make a Free Peoples character bearing an artifact weapon strength +3 and damage +1, or spot Gandalf to play a weapon from your draw deck or discard pile.
"Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts..."
An upgraded version of Dagger Strike for the Gondolin blades. But since that's totally useless when those weapons haven't arrived, it can allow you instead to get a weapon in the right time when it's needed (solving also the problem of losing Glamdring). With that wording ("Free Peoples character" bearing an "artifact weapon") it can pump Elrond when wielding Hadafang.
[2] Inner Light Revealed [Gandalf] (Elrond Pack, preferrably)
(https://s10.postimg.org/om4zujnm1/Inner_Light.jpg)
Event • Skirmish
Spell.
Make a Wise character gain enduring. (For each wound on an enduring character, it is strength +2.) You may exert that character to make him or her damage +1.
"Before him stooped the old figure... bent, laden with years, but holding a power beyond the strength of kings."
Yes, enduring Gandalf! It always annoyed me that no single card ever gave him that keyword (but temporarily, of course!). I know it's a rule that came much later than FOTR block, but here is explained in italics between parentheses so new players shouldn't be confused (just like Goblin Marksman's archer).
The idea of using a loaded keyword in lieu of a more direct text (like "make Gandalf strength +2 for each wound on him") is that it's much easier to balance: non-numeric keywords cannot be stacked, so piling up ridiculous strengths with 2+ copies won't be possible; still, extra copies can stack the additional exertion (and damage +1). It can pump both Elrond and Gandalf, and synergizes with the cost of both Hadafang and Dawn Take You All.
Hope this helps.
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Good ideas!
The first one is very good. I simplify it a bit to make it easier to read:
- The "damage +1" is not necessary. A lot of Dwarves still have this ability, it will be too much.
- Only "companion", it's only for the weapons found in the Troll hoard.
[1] No Finer Blade [Gandalf]
Event • Skirmish
Choose one: make a companion bearing an artifact weapon strength +3; or spot Gandalf to play a weapon from your draw deck or discard pile.
"Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts..."
The second one is not in the Rivendell strategy :(. I don't think we need [Gandalf] skirmish events in this pack, and instead of which card?
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The first one is very good. I simplify it a bit to make it easier to read:
- The "damage +1" is not necessary. A lot of Dwarves still have this ability, it will be too much.
- Only "companion", it's only for the weapons found in the Troll hoard.
I'm glad you liked it! Though not essential, those subtracted parts had some role to play:
- The damage +1 is meant for Bilbo and Gandalf, which have none otherwise. It'd give Bilbo more power to erase Gollum or the Aggressor, and thus double move more easily. You wanted ways to counter a dmg+1 Orc enheartened and assigned by Sauron, and while a suprise str +3 pump helps to defeat such Orc, it's often necessary some damage to erase it before the fierce assignment takes place. The only Dwarf target would be Thorin and I agree that damage +3 is a bit too much, but almost always will be worse than Battle Fury's strength +4.
- Including allies means only Elrond, and considering it was his grandmother Idril's weapon, !Hadafang is a Gondolin blade too. ;) It'd create more interaction with the Rivendell pack (while the 2nd option will be playing weapons from the Blue Mountains, Dale, Thorin and Dain packs). If you want to shorten it, "Free Peoples character" can be cut to simply "character."
The second one is not in the Rivendell strategy :(. I don't think we need [Gandalf] skirmish events in this pack, and instead of which card?
You're right, there's no need of a [Gandalf] skirmish event, but would be useful anyway if we could get the room. Though I don't know yet what to remove. But frankly, the inner interactions of the Rivendell Pack don't convince me. Many redundant means, and little focus on what the Pack should be doing: help the Company, not overshadow it. I mean...
- Moon Runes shouldn't play Site 3 allies, there's already AWINL and the new Site 3 for that (and lorewise that event should set up the [Dwarven] culture, not the [Elven]).
- with Hadafang and Rivendell Scouts summoning the allies, there's no need of an event like Hold Ranks.
- I neither like the choke effect of playing big, easy-to-summon fighting Allies at Maneuver phase; only the Dain Pack can do that to some extent, but Röac's skill is expensive to repeat and he's replacing AWINL (which can't play Dwarves).
The Pack heals and that's good (Lindir's passive skill + Vilya is a great combo) but feels like it's the 4th FP army with all that focus on fighting. It should heal, play sites, draw cards, perhaps remove some twilight or reduce a site's shadow number... subtle and secret manners, not an army in shinning coats. Except only if is about The White Council fighting Sauron, where an event like Inner Light Revealed might work well.
What can be removed then? I think Hold Ranks is the best candidate: its ally-summoning role can be done instead by Hadafang and Rivendell Scouts, and is also the weakest card in lore (a non-transcendent part, in the film only).
Moon Runes should play sites, perhaps reducing the Shadow number like Deft in their Movements, and perhaps heal or increase the move limit by spotting Elrond. Lindir + Vilya + Elrond means 2 wounds healed per turn, so I don't see the necessity of also playing each turn Lore of Imladris to remove 2 more (except only to trigger Vilya/Hadafang's strength reduction), so Lindir might absorb the [Elven] artifact playing, and leave then Moon Runes blank for a totally new text about the sitepath.
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I got another card that can help [Gandalf] skirmish events, though not a [Gandalf] event...
[1] •Travelling Messenger [Gandalf]
(https://s9.postimg.org/ctvd9o273/messenger.jpg)
Follower • Creature
Strength +1
Aid - Discard an event from hand.
Maneuver: Exert Gandalf and return this follower to your support area to take a [Gandalf] event into hand from draw deck or discard pile.
"We shall need your help, and the help of all things that will give it."
The Travellers Pack might need a follower, since lacks any permanent strength bonus or fighting ally (even worse than the Thráin Pack, which as 1 follower and 1 Ring). Followers cannot be killed, which is another advantage over an ally like Betsy Butterbur. She'll be either exhausted or too easy to kill by Narzug, so to use her safely you'll need to retain her in hand. She can be used only once per copy, while a (non-self discarding) follower can be used over and over, assuming you can pay the costs.
So this follower brings either a little bit of strength by discarding an event (FP or Shadow), or a [Gandalf] event by also exerting Gandalf. It's merely an alternative, I know you'll probably dislike it but if you find Besty is too weak for the job of supporting events, you got this option here.
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No Finner Blade will keep the simplest form at the moment.
The current build of the Rivendell Pack is around new 1-cost maneuver events (to promote the Lore of Imladris), their effects are not determined. Only the concept is put on the table. Ideas for new effects?
Travelling Messenger is too good with The Grey....... [-X [-X
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Belated again, I've been very busy lately... :-S
No Finer Blade will keep the simplest form at the moment.
The damage +1 means only 3 short words. Let Elrond outside, but the damage for Bilbo and Gandalf is important (while will be redundant, thus harmless, in the case of Thorin).
The current build of the Rivendell Pack is around new 1-cost maneuver events (to promote the Lore of Imladris), their effects are not determined. Only the concept is put on the table. Ideas for new effects?
Alright, I'll work with the 1-cost events idea.
The effects must portray the 2 roles that Elrond plays in the story: #1 he's a wise and gentle counsellor, who offers aid for the travel (play sites, heal, reduce twilight, make skirmishes a bit easier to win); and #2 he's an ancient Noldor lord that, along with The White Council, drives the Necromancer out of Mirkwood (heal Gandalf, pump Wise characters, summon himself under specific circumstances or restrictive costs).
I believe most of the pack should focus on #1, since #2 is a subplot only. The Moon Runes are part of #1. So here's my version, based on Deft in Their Movements:
[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and the site with highest number on the adventure path to play the site next to it and make each site's Shadow number -2 until the end of the turn. You may exert Thorin twice to make the move limit for this turn +1.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
The main failure of Deft In Their Movements is the scarce availability of sites to affect (snapshot rule). So to correct that this event plays the next site, not in respect of your own position in the sitepath (like Pathfinder), but in respect of the sitepath itself! And only then takes the snapshot. Thorin can exert twice to increase the move limit, because makes little sense to lower the twilight number of the next 3 or 4 sites if you'll move only once or at best twice.
So by playing it at Fellowship, per each copy you'll get -1 total twilight (-2 Shadow Number, + [1] for the event) in the 1st move and -2 more in the 2nd (as far as the Shadow numbers can still be lowered). You can shuffle it with Balin, and replay it with Lindir at Maneuver for a regroup move. I know you dislike events with multiple phases. But reducing many sites' Shadow numbers works better if can be played at Fellowship (before the 1st move), and your strategy forces it to be also a Maneuver event (otherwise would be Fellowship and Regroup).
Travelling Messenger is too good with The Grey....... [-X [-X
Hmmm, you're right. It can be lowered, the idea is to have a follower alternative to Betsy. Another way of solving Betsy's weakness is to enhance her directly:
(0) •Betsy Butterbur, Gentle Barmaid [Gandalf]
Ally • Home 1 • Man
Strength 1 Vitality 3
At the start of each of your turns, heal Betsy Butterbur.
Fellowship: Exert Betsy Butterbur twice to take a [Gandalf] or [Dwarven] event into hand from your discard pile.
"The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór."
Like the Master of Laketown, she'll bring help once every 2 turns. Also, if just played and not used yet (vit 3), she won't be easily killed by Narzug. I changed "Free Peoples event" to "[Gandalf] or [Dwarven] event" in order to exclude [Elven], [Shire] and potentially [Dale] events, which shouldn't be part of Thorin and Gandalf's chance meeting at Bree (Bilbo's and The Evil Becomes Stronger would be too powerful).
I'll try to work on a weaker version of Travelling Messanger, to have more options.
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[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and the site with highest number on the adventure path to play the site next to it and make each site's Shadow number -2 until the end of the turn. You may exert Thorin twice to make the move limit for this turn +1.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
Unplayable, complicated and weak :(.
Betsy is only more complicated to avoid Narzug. She could be used directly after playing it, so there is no need to help her (she's powerful enough).
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Unplayable, complicated and weak :(.
Hmm, not so weak really, but excessively complicated. What about this one?
[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and a site to play the following site (replacing opponent's site if necessary). You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each Shadow event and Shadow condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
(EDIT: Reworded it, according to Dictionary's suggestion.)
Keeps the playing of sites, but now can also replace any site in play (except site 1 only), like Traveled Leader would do in pre-Shadows sites. The choke goal is still present, but now the DitM text is replaced by Dauntless Hunter's (and Thorin exerts only once). The move limit addition was removed to keep the gametext simpler and within 5 lines (but I still believe it's important for this Pack's flavor, perhaps in another card).
The Balin + Lindir synergy is kept: you can exert Thorin and Balin in fellowship to play it from hand and recycle it, and later replay at Maneuver with Lindir for +2 total twilight to any post-Shadow event in that site (annoying things like If He Losses, Goblin Song, Hidden...), and after moving in regroup the effect is extended to conditions and Shadow-phase events. Lindir can play Lore of Imladris to sweep 2 of those 3 wounds.
Betsy is only more complicated to avoid Narzug. She could be used directly after playing it, so there is no need to help her (she's powerful enough).
If you use the Prancing Pony to get her via AWINL (for [3]), you'll have only AWINL in discard and then she'll be easily killed by Narzug. Another use of that site is playing Elrond, but that's risky due to the total [7] it costs. The Prancing Pony's cost might be changed to "exert Gandalf" or "exert a [Gandalf] character" to reduce that risk to [5] only.
Maybe keep the original Betsy, with the sole addition of "Betsy Butterbur cannot take wounds"? I dislike keeping her in hand, 'cause means clogging it... since there's few permanent cards in the game (compared to LOTR TCG; there's not a single FP condition) and also the Travellers Pack provides few, a good card flow is always key.
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[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond and a site to play the site next to it (replacing opponent's site if necessary). You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each Shadow event and Shadow condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
Keeps the playing of sites, but now can also replace any site in play (except site 1 only)
I would argue that "site next to it" could mean in front or behind, but I take it that's not what you mean? If not, maybe something like: "Spot Elrond to spot a site. Play the following site (replacing opponent's site if necessary)." might be clearer?
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I'm not a big fan of site manipulation :(, or FP playing denial.
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If not, maybe something like: "Spot Elrond to spot a site. Play the following site (replacing opponent's site if necessary)." might be clearer?
Yes, that'd be much clearer. I wanted to avoid using "play the next site", as that exactly as Pathfinder except for the remotion of "fellowship's", and as such might confuse experienced players used to LOTR TCG's site manipulation (while new players wouldn't). Thanks, Dictionary! :up:
I'm not a big fan of site manipulation :(, or FP playing denial.
The twilight cost increase is the only simple way I see by the moment to provide a choke mechanism that can work well during Maneuver (too late for twilight remotion). And it must be strong enough to counter its own cost [1]. But don't confuse this event with Dauntless Hunter: each copy is half the infamous Elf's effect, and requires to be activated every turn by means of exertions (of Thorin, Balin and Lindir). That forces you to choose between choke and the easy mass healing that this Pack provides (Elrond + Lindir playing 2x LoI (recycled by Balin) = 3 total wounds healed per turn; add Vilya and Óin if necessary). The choke is important to portray Elrond's help to the Company (preparations and advice for the road), instead of strength pumps and direct skirmish intervention.
The site manipulation is already present in Thrór's Map and Watchful Orc. This event is only more versatile, but will never be a nightmare like the Expanded site manipulation tricks (due to fixed site numbers). It's a bit superfluous, so can be removed in benefit of more important things like a move limit increase (that's what Thrór's Map did in the story: they realized that if they moved fast enough, they'd have a secret entrance to fight Smaug with stealth instead of open war):
[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond to make the move limit for this turn +1 (to a maximum of 3)*. You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each Shadow event and Shadow condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
* The maximum is worded like Traitor's Voice, meant to prevent Lindir and Balin from abusing it.
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What about taking a page from Some Who Resisted?
[1] Moon-letters [Elven]
Event • Fellowship or Maneuver
Spot Elrond to make the move limit for this turn +1 (to a maximum of 3)*. You may exert Thorin to make the twilight cost of each event and condition +1 for this turn.
"This is ill news. Summer is passing. Durin's Day will soon be upon us."
Obviously, "condition" vs "Shadow condition" simply saves space. This way, the FP can't deny a Shadow player twilight while still taking full advantage of his or her own events. It'll also offset the punishment of playing multiple copies, since each copy would add a little more to the twilight pool for the Shadow player than the one before it.
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I think this kind of event would be difficult to play. There are not so much double moves in the Hobbit game (so triple moves?), and I don't think players love playing against a choke strategy (as much as discard strategy) in LOTR TCG.
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Update of the first post.
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Last packs have now there images. :)
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/LastPacks.html
Enjoy!
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Update:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/LastPacks.html
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We made a Hobbit tournament with 8 players last Sunday. We tested the new cards.
Update of the first post.
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"No Finner Blade" should be "No Finer Blade". Also "A Wise Advice" should simply be "Wise Advice". I like the new Gandalf :)
EDIT: The title "Boulder Rock" doesn't really work in English. I'd suggest "Great Boulder" instead.
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Thank you :).
I update all this in the first post of this topic.
I already printed Boulder Rock :(.
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First post is updated.
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Big update of the card images.
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/LastPacks.html
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Good work! The full-image conditions look very cool, although I find the text on Terrifying Legend a bit hard to read.
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Thank you. Yes I know, but the picture is beautiful :). The text will always be in front of the fire, that makes it difficult to read :(.
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How long have these errata been up?
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We are still testing cards affected by these errata. I let you know as soon as they will be definitive.
The Bolg Shadow would have been overpowered on gempukku without those errata.
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Probably the last version of the new cards:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/LastPacks.html
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Travellers Pack
- Betsy Butterbur: She's ok, except that lacks her surname in the gametext. I'd use a picture of her serving food to Gandalf, since without the Wizard the loretext makes little sense.
- Burning Fir Cones: The idea of taking a cone and carrying it as a possession to use in any future time of need (Dol Guldur? Battle of the Five Armies?) seems a bit artificial to me; should be an event, a portrayal of improvisation as events are. The need of skirmish events to make it work and (even worse) the revealing of your whole hand, don't seem right in my opinion. I'd try with something like this:
[3] Burning Fir Cones [Gandalf]
Event • Archery
Spell.
Exert Gandalf and return X attached [Dwarven] followers to your support area to spot X minions (except Smaug). Wound those minions twice.
The idea is to make it a group effort depending not only on Gandalf, but also on Dwarf followers (and the toll of their aid costs). More powerful than the possession (2* X wounds) but more costly, and cannot focus all wounds on a single minion (like Sauron or a Troll). It can weaken Sauron before Assignment.
If you keep the possession, I'd broaden it to any FP event (skirmish or not, with a "limit 3" or 4). And change the revealing of the whole hand to "reveal X Free Peoples skirmish events from your hand".
- Scouting Warg: Scouts must be cheap, [6] was a bit absurd (and could turn Azog/Fimbul into the Cave Troll/Lurtz!), and [4] is still a bit too high for me. I mean, [1] + [4] (and +[3] if from discard) consumes a good part of the twilight meant for the main forces of the Shadow pack. Nazguls for instance are expensive and don't have any support for Orcs...
The regroup skill requires bearer to survive Thorin, twice. That's very unbalanced: too hard for Yazneg, and too easy for The Orc Army. So I'd much rather have something like this:
[2] Scouting Warg [Gundabad]
Possession • Mount
Strength +2 Vitality +1
Bearer must be an Orc.
Bearer is fierce.
If bearer is Yazneg, he is strength +5 and each time a [Dwarven] event is played or a [Dwarven] follower is attached, you may exert a companion.
"Send word to the Master: we have found the Dwarf-scum!"
Punishing events should be powerful in a Pack with so much FP event-support (discarding possessions is better when the Pack provides many weapons/mounts). Exerting a companion whenever the Company tries to !escape (or to gather together and fight) gives a good hunting flavor. The most disuptive [Dwarven] tricks are during Maneuver (Dwarf followers, Azanulbizar, AK, LoI) and most need exertions, so this combo will make them sweat twice for each one as Yazneg will always be alive during the that phase. So this combo makes any Shadow much more perilous, by blocking or taxing [Dwarven] events and followers that often make, say a Moria Swarm or Esgaroth Beatdown, somewhat easy to survive.
[Dwarven] Pumps can help to defeat this str 12 Orc hunter, but even so the Company won't escape unharmed (and like Promise Keeping, direct exertions mid-skirmish can be lethal). All that for a 2-card combo costing [3] (or [6] with Goblin Footman)! If is excessively powerful, might also require to "remove [1] to exert a companion".
The current loretext is counter-wise (Yazneg excusing his defeat), so I propose a new one which is more menacing.
- Bill Ferny Sr: The assignment skill is OP, blocks Thorin completely when trying to face Azog/Smaug (like [Isengard] Desertion). Although can be nullified by a single wound (by Kili/Burning Cones), it's worrisome given the skill to return over and over...
Perhaps the answer is to make Thorin defender +1: that way, Ferny Sr becomes a +4 str pump like his son, but in his own manner (and returning anytime he wants). Thorin is no longer totally focused on Ferny, but his skirmish becomes much more perilous; perhaps Ferny should also be dmg+1 to make that skirmish deadly dangerous (he'd be the backstabber).
He should also be able to choose other Royal Dwarves than only Thorin (in case he's already dead). "A Dwarf companion with a damage bonus" would include also Glóin, Dwalin and Fili. That'd make Dwalin much more unlikely to survive if using his def+X skill (even if using support from Dori + Bofur/Fili).
[2] •Bill Ferny Sr., Agent of Azog [Gundabad]
Minion • Man
Strength 4 Vitality 2 Site 2
Damage +1.
Shadow: Discard 2 cards from hand to play Bill Ferny Sr. from your discard pile.
Assignment: If Bill Ferny Sr. is unwounded, Assign Bill Ferny Sr. to a Dwarf companion with a damage bonus. That Dwarf is defender +1.
"A promise of payment... for your head."
2 vitality now, but no "must be unwounded" requirement; thus, only Kili twice, Dawn Take You All or the Burning Cones can nullify his assignment effect. The returning skill is cheaper also.
With the aforementioned, can fight a Royal Dwarf alone (absorbing him as defender), or support another minion facing that Royal Dwarf (not blocking the defender, but making the deed really dangerous). If alone and lucky enough, might even kill Fili/Dwalin if pumped by Anger!
Balin Pack
- Thrór: The SFTF effect is a really ingenious way of portraying his influence over the years! But killing 2 Dwarves for that effect is too much. I'd change it to Thrór only, + add [3] (like SFTF) + exert "a Dwarf companion"/Thorin twice (which makes the early game more dangerous with all the twilight just added). But killing Thrór + a member of the Company is too much a load for the dead pile/rule of 9, and also is unaccurate with the story. One dead Dwarf is enough to trigger Not At Home, and to weaken Thorin with Dragon Sickness.
(0) •Thrór, Overthrown King [Dwarven]
Companion • Dwarf
Strength 7 Vitality 5
At the end of any phase, place Thrór in your dead pile.
Fellowship: Exert Thorin twice, add [3] and place Thrór in your dead pile to take up to 3 [Dwarven] cards into hand from your draw deck.
The first line was changed to do exactly the same, but mirroring Isildur Heir of Elendil.
- Iron Hills Chariot: The 1st skill is great. But I always loathed the fact that Cirdan played against the rules (only you can look at the cards in your discard pile, and thus opponent cannot verify if your X [Elven] events in discard are true or not). To avoid that, can be reworded to "exert Balin and reveal X [Dwarven] events with a twilight cost of 0 from your discard pile". The same, but clearer for your opponent.
Blue Mountains Pack
- Catapult Troll: I think it should have more precision targeting than just revealing a card at random. You improved it a lot by revealing a card from the Shadow player's hand (so Hatred Rekindled can filter), but that'll often be far from enough. If instead you chose the twilight by paying a cost, it'd be much better considering it's a hit-or-miss situation: the Troll is a bonus card with 1 or 2 copies in deck, drawn at total random, unlikely to be replayed and costing [5]...
[4] Catapult Troll [Moria]
Minion • Troll
Strength 11 Vitality 3 Site 5
Maneuver: Exert this minion and wound an Orc X times to make the Free Peoples player discard his or her card in play (except a companion) whose twilight cost is X.
"It is not unlikely that they invented... the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once...
(That loretext is a line I always loved in the book!) You now choose what value will take X: the Orc wounds itself by charging the device. Since you cannot wound 0 times, Rings will always be protected. I made it cost -1, but also made the site number +1, so it doesn't absorb too much twilight (along with the Orc-fuel) at the late game. Azanulbizar can weaken or erase some of the Orc-fuel, so under some circumstances expensive FP cards can be protected.
Errata
- Sauron: I don't like the changing of culture of the whole Bolg Pack, to fix the unbalance of this single card. The OP combo of a fierce, dmg+1 minion direct-assignable CAN STILL be done with Fimbul (and enhanced by possessions / pumps). So why not excluding specifically that troublesome keyword? "Each Orc that has no damage bonus is strength +1 and fierce." That erases almost any possible combination of those 2 keywords + a direct assignment, regardless of cultures (the only way of mixing them is a dmg+1 Orc on a mount, but that's very expensive and hand-dependant).
But now the 1st skill uses +1 line, so the Assignment skill must be reduced: "Assignment: Exert Sauron to assign an Orc or Nazgul to a companion (except Bilbo). That companion may exert or add 2 doubts to prevent this." Exactly the same effect, but shorter: just like Saruman SotE's wording, "that companion" is always under the FP player's control, so that translates to "the Free Peoples player may exert or add 2 doubts".
A new loretext, showing his persuation attempt on Galadriel: "You cannot fight the Shadow. Even now you fade..."
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Just for fun, I rearranged in 3 minutes the old idea of a Molten Gold Monument artifact, although there's no room and its effects are very limited:
[4] •Molten Gold Monument [Dwarven]
(https://media.giphy.com/media/e6l4uSta2DOhO/giphy.gif)
Artifact • Support Area
Strength -2 Vitality -2
Fortification. To play, exert 3 Dwarves.
Skirmish: If no card is stacked here, transfer this from your support area to a minion at site 7 or 8. If bearer is killed, return this to your support area and stack bearer here.
"This is Dwarf gold! And we will have our revenge!"
The idea was to trap a key minion under all that gold. If that minion has only 1 copy in the deck (SMAUG!), that means it vanishes from the game. If not, less copies of Goblin Runner / Footman always mean gain.
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I should be updating this with more ideas in the following minutes/hours, just want to post what I got before my connection fails / my health crumbles as a house of cards / a new earthquake / nuclear war begins / aliens invade / Jimi Hendrix resurrects and knocks on my door for a guitar...
No more updates in this post.
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Last Packs
- Betsy Butterbur: Ok for the gametext. But I can't find a HD and luminous image with her and Gandalf.
- Burning Fir Cones: The whole pack is around skirmish events. This possession works well with the pack.
- Don't know yet about the Scouting Warg and Bill Ferny Sr .
- Thrór: No, the current version works well, players love him!
- Iron Hills Chariot: Ok for this "exert Balin and reveal X [Dwarven] events with a twilight cost of 0 from your discard pile". I will ask other players if they find it easier to read.
- Catapult Troll: Some players love random effects, and this one is well balanced.
Errata
- Sauron: I didn't change the culture of the Bolg Shadow only due to Sauron. Mirkwood and the Bolg Shadow were too strong together, same with the Wargs. A Gundabad culture in the Swarm Packs was a mistake.
Sauron seems balanced now, and Fimbul is necessary to make it good.
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- • Molten Gold Monument is really fun!
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No Finer Blade and Wise Advice still have title errors on that page. He Is Summoning his Servants should say: "2 Wise characters" and not "2 Wises" as Wise is not a noun (Compare Fierce with Hunter).
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Again, I'm posting what I have by the moment, so beware of updates! More Yet To Come.
@Dictionary: I agree with you about No Finer Blade, it has an extra "n". But to me, "A Wise Advice" seems like Tolkien's "...a red day, ere the sun rises! / Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!" Of course, you're a native English speaker and I cannot be included into that category, but this is the way I see this specific issue.
Thank you for keeping the help for this project! Nice to see you're alive and kickin'!
Travellers Pack
- No Finer Blade: I believe you're avoiding an easy replay of Orcrist, but that shouldn't be punishing Sting too. Thorin has his active skill to recycle Orcrist but Bilbo has nothing, so "spot Gandalf to play Glamdring or Sting" would be better. I still think it should give dmg +1, it can make the difference for Bilbo/Gandalf but would do little for Thorin ('cause most minions in his path will die anyway).
Elrond Pack
- Vilya: I like it better, increasing a companion's strength is clearer than reducing strength to a minion, and also all the byproducts of healing cannot be piled upon a single minion. :up: Here's a different loretext (since you just copied 3R27): "But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise..." (from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
- Hadafang: Good gametext. A new lore: "...and in that war this Age will be ended." (the best I could do with 1 line, from The Silmarillion: "Nonetheless I forbode that the One will yet be found, and then war will arise again, and in that war this Age will be ended.")
- Rivendell Scout: I don't see the danger of making this ally cost [3], and be strength 7 and an archer... often site 3 allies don't come soon enough to fight there, and anyway you'll always prefer to fetch Elrond or Lindir with AWINL. The pack has no way of making them fight (but if the Scout was an archer, might be summoned by The Evil Becomes Stronger if the packs meet).
This loretext should be better: "Strange for Orcs to come so close to our borders. Something or someone has drawn them near." (Elrond, Hobbit film #1)
- Dark Sorcery: The blocking of Gandalf's 1st skill is great, but will do nothing against Friend of Thorin. So against him, should provide more than just drawing 2 cards once. Why not make it like Enchanted River: "Discard this condition or exert 2 Orcs to draw 2 cards"? It'd be a lasting effect for most Shadow builds, and a game changer that'd allow the Shadow to set up much faster, but with a cost that cannot be taken lightly in a metagame with so much direct wounding (Rivendell Scout, Azanulbizar, Kili and DTYA; plus Lindir/Elrond reloading the Scout/Kili). Otherwise, it's merely a costlier version of Threat of the Unknown (which is already lame).
An alternative loretext: "There is no light, Wizard, that can defeat Darkness!"
Balin Pack:
- Balin's Armor: This card is awesome: makes Balin a much better fighter, a much better "counsellor" so to say (event recycler-fetcher) and portrays also his frienship with Bilbo. :up: But I'd give it a better loretext: "...for there was no hauberk... of better make than his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain..." (The Two Towers, The King of the Golden Hall)
- Ori's Slingshot: I think it needs to help Ori a bit more... something like "Ori's bearer is an archer" would be nice, and changing the Archery skill to Assignment or Skirmish instead (so they don't interfere). Finally, the loretext is a thing I invented (and not a good one!) so must NOT be inside quotation marks... I'd even try something else, like "A bold heart is enough weapon when hands are moved by loyalty" or so.
- Careful With These: The gametext is good, a fine support card for Balin (and Corrupted Lakemen). But the title and loretext were very old ideas about Fili, Kili and [Dwarven] weapons, so I think this is a good chance to bring instead the "Blunt The Knives" song, which should mix well with Balin's joyful spirit.
(0) Blunt The Knives! [Dwarven]
Event • Fellowship
Choose one: draw 2 cards; play Balin from your draw deck; or place 2 cards from your discard pile beneath your draw deck.
"And when you've finished, if any are whole,
Send them down the hall to roll!"
- The Ancient Forges: This card is very good. Alternative loretext: "Lead him to the forges. We kill the dragon."
- Bridging Troll: Seems strong, but since needs some Orcs + [5] to be totally useful, should make easier that combo along with the main Shadow pack force. I liked the strength bonus for small Orcs, perhaps a twilight reduction might help them too: "Each Orc is twilight cost -1 (and strength +1 if its vitality is 2 or less)."
Another change I'd implement is the base stats, for both Bridging and Catapult Trolls: [Moria] cost [5], vitality 3, site number 4 and no keywords are equivalent to Goblin Flankers, whose base strength is 11. I'd go a bit farther and fix a cost [4] with site number 5, so it's cheaper at the late game and easier to play with the main force of the Shadow Pack (but that might cause some confusion for new players, so I'm not really sure).
[4] Bridging Troll [Moria]
Minion • Troll
Strength 11 Vitality 3 Site 5
Each Orc is twilight cost -1 (and strength +1 if its vitality is 2 or less).
Skirmish: Exert this minion and discard an Orc to make the Free Peoples player discard a [Dwarven] possession or [Dwarven] artifact.
Blue Mountains Pack
- Dwarven Warhammer: This can be borne by any [Dwarven] character, allies included. So that would allow Dain to bear [Dwarven] followers (the Aid cost paid at start of maneuver allows a follower to be attached to a companion; nothing is ruled about attaching them via card effects to anywhere specified). I'm totally OK with that; it'd allow Dain to get more skirmish power if replacing a dead Thorin via Crown of Erebor.
But if you dislike that, then the Warhammer must either be borne only by companions, or the effect must specify "If bearer is a companion...". The loretext must be between quotation marks, since it's a quote from Tolkien.
- Bombur Barrel Rider: I like the picture, loretext and attitude of this card. But I don't like the restriction to Bombur only; you said you didn't want HWWR to work only with Beorn, and this is the same with Bombur here (except that Bombur is more vulnerable to Yazneg). It might instead "discard a Dwarf follower with a twilight cost of X to discard X minions" except Smaug, that keeps Bombur as the greatest user but now not the only. And given the power loss, add something else like "you may draw X cards" or "you may heal X companions".
The title feels a bit dumb, I'd change it something around "Eager for Brawl" to keep the warrior theme. The effect is a bit useless against the Bolg Army, which often self-discards anyway, so healing X companions would make it useful in that scenario too.
[3] Eager for Brawl [Dwarven]
Event • Response
If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, discard a [Dwarven] follower with a twilight cost of X to discard X minions (except Smaug). You may heal X companions.
"Go Bombur! Go!"
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Hey Durin's Heir, good to see you too :) I've been more dormant recently, but still try to keep up to date with everything that's going on. Was glad to hear your health has improved.
I think the issue here is that "advice" is not a countable object. You can have "a piece of advice" or "some advice" but you cannot have "one advice", "two advice" or "an advice". This is different to your example because days are countable.
I still don't really have the background to comment on the cards balance-wise, but I really like some of the cards in this set.
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- Betsy Butterbur: I can't find a HD and luminous image with her and Gandalf.
Hmmm, true. Let it as it is then!
- Burning Fir Cones: The whole pack is around skirmish events. This possession works well with the pack.
But at least should reveal ONLY the skirmish events that will fuel it. You said some 3 1/2 years ago that you didn't want cards like Treachery Deeper Than You Know, since knowing the whole hand of an opponent is too powerful in a Draft format.
- Thrór: No, the current version works well, players love him!
Hmm, it's a slight change in gameplay (-1 Dwarf in Dead Pile, + [3] and some exertions). But a deep change in portraying: all Dwarf companions in the HDG are part of the Company (except Thrór only), and obviously all were alive when Bilbo left Bag End.
Agree, it looks like a lovely card to have in hands and play!
- Don't know yet about the Scouting Warg and Bill Ferny Sr .
The change in the Scouting Warg would be somewhat big, it needs some good thinking.
But Ferny is much simpler: in Constructed, either Ferny alone (not R-listed) or with the assistance of Fimbul will be a huge headache for Thorin. Because Thorin is your main fighter, and Beatdown decks become huge in Constructed format, having all the tools and minions they need. So it shouldn't just shut him down as a defender vs Smaug / Giants / Lakemen (once you've managed to remove Kili from the equation).
- Catapult Troll: Some players love random effects, and this one is well balanced.
Hmm, alright. Depends then on the impact it has on the game: is that random effect discarding the right possessions/followers, and the right time to hinder the Company? My version only fixes the twilight range that will receive the stone, but the discarded support card will be still decided by the FP player.
In either way, I'd increase its base strength to 11 like Goblin Flankers.
- Sauron: A Gundabad culture in the Swarm Packs was a mistake.
Sauron seems balanced now, and Fimbul is necessary to make it good.
Interesting. Alright.
More Yet To Come... (no more updates in this post, except perhaps orthography and errors, but no additions)
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@Dictionary: Thanks a lot for your help! You can still comment the cards, even if you're not sure about the impact in the draft game ;).
Travellers Pack
- No Finer Blade: Terrifying Legend (Town Hall) and No Riddles in the Dark (Old Thrush) have counter cards. Nazguls and Trolls could be countered too. Only Smaug... The card is ok.
- Burning Fir Cones: The Free Peoples player reveals his or her hand, so the Free Peoples Player decides to reveal it or not.
- Bill Ferny Sr.: Ok for the following version
[2] •Bill Ferny Sr., Agent of Azog [Gundabad]
Minion • Man
Strength 4 Vitality 2 Site 2
Damage +1.
Thorin is defender +1.
Shadow: Discard 2 cards from hand to play Bill Ferny Sr. from your discard pile.
Assignment: Assign Bill Ferny Sr. to Thorin.
"A promise of payment... for your head."
- Scouting Warg: The current card is great and is a perfect counter to all FP possessions in this pack (we always need counters to the FP cards in a supplementary pack!).
Elrond Pack
- Rivendell Scout: Ok for archer. (2) is great.
- Dark Sorcery: "Exert 2 Orcs to draw 2 cards" will be too much OP! Btw, Threat of the Unknown is an event... The card is great, no need to change it.
Balin Pack:
- Thrór: We change the story, Thrór could still be alive at the beginning of this journey. He and his shieldman would have to die to bring informations to the Company...
- Ori's Slingshot: The card is good now. A first version of the card made the bearer of Ori an archer, it was too good...
- Catapult Troll and Bridging Troll: Be careful! Both are very good with the Azog Shadow.... I want to make all [Moria] Trolls [5], str 10 and vita 3.
Blue Mountains Pack
- Dwarven Warhammer: Ok for "Bearer must be a [Dwarven] companion".
- Bombur Barrel Rider: Yes, you're right. I cut the heal part, the card will be strong enough with this version:
[3] Eager for Brawl [Dwarven]
Event • Response
If the fellowship moves during the regroup phase, discard a [Dwarven] follower with a twilight cost of X to discard X minions (except Smaug).
"Go Bombur! Go!"
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These cards will also change:
New Game texts
Iron Hills Chariot
Betsy Butterbur
He Is Summoning his Servants
New Lore texts
Vilya
Hadafang
Rivendell Scout
Dark Sorcery
Balin's Armor
Ori's Slingshot
Careful with These (no need to change the image?)
The Ancient Forges
New Titles
No Finner Blade -> No Finer Blade
A Wise Advice -> Wise Advice
Careful with These -> Blunt The Knives!
Bombur Barrel Rider -> Eager for Brawl
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I will not be at home before Monday, I won't change the card images before Monday evening.
Btw, all these card changes will be made without any further tests. I have to print all the Last Packs in less than one or two weeks and no player will be available to test the changes before the end of September. The next Hobbit Draft Game Championship will be held the 10th or 24th November.
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- No Finer Blade: OK for Glamdring only, but what about the damage bonus?
- Burning Fir Cones: "Discard this possession to reveal your hand." In order to reveal ONLY FP skirmish events, in order to wound minions. Why not skip the revealing of your whole hand, and instead reveal merely the FP skirmish events you need to get wounding? That's all I'm saying.
If you reveal a hand with little Shadow power, and don't use/discard most of it before ending your turn, your opponent will have a much easier decision as to double move or not in his/her own turn. There's no need to reveal so much information.
- Bill Ferny Sr.: I like your new version a lot, it's clear and simple! :up:
- Scouting Warg: But what about Yazneg? Does he take the limelight when bearing it (which I believe was one of the goals)?
- Rivendell Scout: :up: as archer.
- Dark Sorcery: Threat of the Unknown is an event, but costs (0) (and most of the times, you'll want to draw at your first chance just to set up sooner). Exerting 2 Orcs isn't so easy (Orcs are easier to wound and have small vitality), and means losing a lot of strength versus direct wounding (think about Osgiliath Crossing vs direct wounding like Greenleaf or Rohirrim Bow, it's setting up but doing zero damage!). That'd be powerful to set up at the early and perhaps middle game, but later it's totally detrimental.
Without twilight addition, drawing cards cannot overcome the cost of crippling vitality (you'll need twilight to play the things just drawn to hand). Moria Swarm can create twilight, but they have no extra vitality to spend!
- Thrór: I always interpreted your self-SFTF starting-companion Thrór as the easiest way of affecting the game (and sending him to dead pile) without adding weird texts (like "While in your dead pile, Thrór's gametext remains active") AND also from the very beginning. He is played and dies at site 1, before fighting or shooting, merely as a representation of him being dead and affecting the Longbeards before Bilbo starts his journey.
So he only needs to 1) be a starting companion, and 2) die before moving to site 2, as a cost to get his profound effect. That's alright, but there's no need to kill another Dwarf! Nor to change the story.* (see below, it's somewhat long but I think is worthy!)
- Ori's Slingshot: Ok. What about something milder, like "Ori can be attached for free"? He's the weakest of all followers, and although his Aid cost is mild, he'll be using a [Dwarven] follower slot so making his attachment free makes him more appealing (and will synergize with Balin a lot more).
- Catapult Troll and Bridging Troll: Ok then for the identical base attributes. But if attributes won't change, what about a keyword (fierce or dmg+1)? Their cost is high, and outside the Trolls or Azog's Army packs, they have no support (except Anger).
- Dwarven Warhammer: :up:
- Eager For Brawl: :up: Great!
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The list is ok, I lack only the review of He Is Summoning His Servants from that list. But is coming, along with others that I'm yet missing, just wait one or two days and every detail should be reviewed.
Careful with These (no need to change the image?)
Yes! There's a lot of good pictures that can be used, anything will work well (except Óin playing the teapot! #-o). I took these 2 snapshots in a quick review, those look good (but my talent for this is negative, you'll do it much better):
(https://s33.postimg.cc/72qmyd7m7/snapshot_00.27.45.jpg) 0:27:45 EE
(https://s33.postimg.cc/q7tw894bj/snapshot_00.27.46.jpg) 0:27:46 EE
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I will not be at home before Monday, I won't change the card images before Monday evening.
Btw, all these card changes will be made without any further tests.
Before Monday should be posted the last of all the reviewed cards. I know that most cards cannot change anything but lesser parts of their functionality (in case it's needed). I'll wait for Bombur blowing the Horn then!
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* If keeping Azog alive was a huge mistake by PJ, keeping Thrór alive is even worse: no War of the Dwarves and Orcs, so Sauron's many huge Orc armies in the Misty Mountains aren't swept by the vengeance-thirsty Dwarven host. Thus he can assault both Lothlórien AND Rivendell as he wished (according to Gandalf, in the Unfinished Tales) -even simultaneously, thus blocking any reinforcements-, to get an Elven Ring or two and by the way erase his old and mighty Elf enemies. Then the Dúnedain, the remaining White Council, Thráin and his Ring, Gollum with The One, and the Shire, all are left to their own luck against the Dark Lord of the East... and North.
That's the importance of Thrór entering Moria "as an heir that returns", moved by some irrational desire that he never understood. It's an eucatastrophe at its full expression: Thrór first, and then more than half of all the Dwarf warriors gathered "from the four corners of the world" died in a bitter war in a lapse of 9 years. Drawn from poorness and exile to the battlefield, just to gain nothing. But as a result, Sauron's plans to conquer all Northern Middle Earth and get back the Rings of Power, all bled out as his Orkish strongholds and armies were swept one by one from the secret positions he needed to assault the Noldor (his ambush to Celebrian in the High Pass serves as a good example).
It was the wicked cruelty of his lieutenant Azog which created a totally unnecessary war with the wrong enemy, and his clumsy underestimation of that enemy's power what turned his northern legions into dust and bones: believing the Dwarven Host would be stopped after assaulting a few Orc strongholds, he kept the secrecy and didn't gather them all until it was too late. And so his war schemes were forced to turn down south on Gondor, and he left the North alone for a good time. Which allowed Bilbo to find The One, and the Shirefolk to survive, and Elendil's Heir... And so Thrór's death and the Dwarven blood at their pyrrhic victory bought Middle Earth a new chance, that's the eucatastrophe hidden here!
"It means, master Baggins, you should never underestimate Dwarves."
So no! It's not a good idea to change the story and keep Thrór alive. Nor to kill his shieldman! ;)
(That's the background that made me want to create a "War of the Dwarves and Orcs" Supplementary Pack, with Nár and "Burned Dwarves" and "Azog, King of Moria"... PJ should have given Orlando Bloom a cameo merely, and use a 10th of that paycheck instead to surround himself with good Tolkien scholars!)
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- No Finer Blade: Let the Dwarves kill minions. No need to add damage +1 here.
- Burning Fir Cones: The text is short and easy to read. Or have you a similar text in 3 lines?
- Dark Sorcery: A previous version of the card had a first weak ability and the card was still very played in all the swarm Shadows. The card is very good most of the time (except vs Friend of Thorin).
- Thror: This card is probably one of the most tested card, I don't want to change it anymore. The card is one of the first picked card in each draft session we made.... and I still think the story can change, Thror could be alive even after his battle against Azog (like his son) and be a member of the Dwarven survivors but a depressed Thror....
- Ori's Slingshot: Ori is now a beast with TMOMK. He is better than Robin Smallburrow.
- Catapult Troll and Bridging Troll: Not necessary, these cards must be used only for theirs abilities.
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These pictures are a bit dark :(.
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Eager for Brawl will need to be Eager to Brawl. I guess you could also have Eager for a Brawl, but that sounds clunkier to me. Sorry if it sounds like I'm being picky.
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Thanks Dictionary, this correction seems necessary.
I haven't time to change the cards now, probably tomorrow.
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Card images are now updated!
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Just wanted to note, that your cards are really beautiful.
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Thanks! :)
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I'm back! :uh-huh:
I will make some minor changes to buff some cards. All these changes will be updated in the first post. Feel free to comment ;).
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Card images!
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Last_Updates.html
Tell me what you think about these buffs!
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I'm probably much too late to be saying this, but just in case you're interested:
!Du Bekar! should say "discard from play" not "discard in play"
Crown of Erebor's Assignment ability is worded like an ongoing effect rather than one that a player triggers.
These are very minor points, so no big deal if it's too late to change them.
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Thank you for the feedback, but the last updates are now printed :(.
You're right!
I could remove "Assignment:" from the Crown of Erebor, it is useless.
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Hello Guys,
great idea about these Hobbit cards!
Lovely design too!
Are those cards really printed or are they for your own use only? :-)
I am wondering about:
Thank you for the feedback, but the last updates are now printed :(.
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You can print all the cards for 8 players using Printerstudio ;).
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Download.html
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Hobbit Draft Game Championship 2019 this week-end. 15-16 players will be there :).
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I made the new promotional cards for 2021-2024:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Promos.html
We can change the 4 Bilbo at the same time. They were made at the beginning of the game, in a very similar way and were never changed then. There were too many cards to test at that moment.
First proposition:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Collector_of_Treasures.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Master_in_Riddles.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Reliable_Companion.png
Tell me what you think about these changes.
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New versions of the 4 Bilbo:
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Collector_of_Treasures.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Master_in_Riddles.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Reliable_Companion.png
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Final versions of the 4 Bilbo?
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Collector_of_Treasures.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Master_in_Riddles.png
http://hobbitdraftgame.free.fr/Cards_Good_def/New_Bilbo_Reliable_Companion.png