Help Balancing Towers Starters

[elfwarrior]

UPDATED Aug 30 2020

I am a new player who collected the Towers and Fellowship starers (and Aragorn and Eomer King starters), but did not play much. Was playing Magic. Still a casual Magic player. I am learning the LOTR game now.  I am playing on LOTR GEMP.

I am working on balancing physical Towers starters to battle each other for offline play and I am looking for help because I am relatively new to LOTR TCG and also new to balancing decks. I started with a suggestion for balancing the Towers Aragorn and Theoden Starters. I added posts on other towers starters too. It is still a work in progress and help would be appreciated.

I am also using these threads as a reference as well and want to play and balance the Towers starers in these posts :
(one is Aragorn, Legolas, and Witch king, also Faramir but I am borrowing cards from the Faramir deck to build the versions of the Legoals and Aragorn decks in that post)

(the other is how to beat the Witch King/Ents starter with the Theoden and Eowyn starters)

https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=11675.0
https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=9047.0


UPDATE: new posts added Aug 29 2020, inclduing a second playtest report and more questions about balancing The Aragorn and Theoden starters as well as questions about balancing the other towers starters including available cards for balancing and links to the two other posts about balancing Towers starters I posted above.

With suggestions received in this post I have decided to start with trying to balance the Towers Theoden and Aragorn Starters.

Eomer and Eowyn are starting for the Theoden Starter and Gimli and Legolas are starting for the Aragron Starter.

For Aragorn and Theodnen I have swapped the shadow sides (and also posted available cards for balancing them without swapping shadow sides for another option. The riders of Rohan have been replaced by elite riders, the adventure decks changed to fit the swapped shadow sides (there is a post about that on this thread too), The heavy chains have been replaced with 1 Hlafwine, 1 Rohirrim bow, 1 Thundering host. I have played two games with these two decks against someone I play TCGs with (a non-LOTR player): one game with Theoden going first (Theoden won) and one game with Aragorn going first to fetch Aragorn with the Riddermark (Aragorn won a close one by surviving a double move to site 9 after Theoden doubled to 8 to get ahead. If I did not make mistakes on the last turn I might have had a winning shadow hand for Theoden, but It was a rare super hand which needed the opposing Aragon, legolas and Gimli to be exhausted and they were, so an uncommon situation, but King's Room helped it happen.) I am using starter rules so starter sized decks (same size as an out of the box starter) and no bidding to go first. If Aragorn loses he gets to go first next game and if Aragorn wins then  randomly decide who goes first next game. I posted a playtest report for each of these games.

Also to save posting a similar question about King starters:
I had an interesting battle with two Return of the King Eomer starters against each other. I will play that one again sometime. Can Eomer survive his own orcs? Only played that one once or twice long ago. Are the King Aragorn and Eomer starters balanced?

To put all the movie set starters in one place:

I read on this forum that the Moria starters are the most balanced set of Fellowship starters.

Thank you

-elfwarrior

[Phallen Cassidy]

Welcome!

The Theoden starter is terribly weak, and I don't know why. If you have the right commons on hand you can bring it up to starter deck level competitiveness yourself. Remove your 3 Rider of Rohan for 3 Elite Rider or 2 Elite Rider + Hrethel, then remove the Heavy Chains and a skirmish event for up to 2 copies each of the allies Guma and Hlafwine (Leod and Weland work great too, but they're uncommon) and you're set.

You could also is swap the shadow sides of Theoden and Aragorn; Aragorn crushes Uruks with his sword and Dunland wipes Rohirrim stuff, but in the reverse case Uruk are tough enough to beat the Rohirrim without using a pump (if you can't make any of the changes above, look for Armor from set 1 or a Sword of Rohan / Rider's Spear to give them a fighting chance), but have vitality to be exerted and make the damage bonus from Work for the Sword relevant. Dunland, likewise, will be able to take a sword away but Aragorn's deck has enough pumps and events to pick which skirmishes to lose. To answer your question, I think this is what I'd do.

If you're interested, here's my recent take on how the other Towers starters might play one another: https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=11675.msg96339#msg96339

I've also heard that the two Mines of Moria starters are best for playing against one another, but haven't looked at them or the King starters in any detail. Maybe someone more familiar with those formats can offer up an idea.

[elfwarrior]

Thanks,

The Eowyn Helm's Deep starter has 3 Elite Riders to Borrow, as well as 3 Rider's Spear, I also have one Halfwine. Towers Deluxe Starter has two Sword of Rohan. The 3 Elite Riders can replace the Riders of Rohan. The spears could replace the chains. Which
If the shadow sides are switched, the swords have bonus damage against uruk hai. And the riders could keep their spears/swords. Which skirmish event could be replaced by Halfwine?

So Rohan/Dunland vs Aragorn/Uruks with elite riders and spears instead of chains? And the automatic damage bonus from the swords vs uruks might be too strong.

For King Starters Eomer vs Eomer would be identical decks, might be a race to see whose orcs win first though. I played that match long ago so I forgot how tough the orcs were but they look tough. A post about king sealed said Eomer was best, then Aragorn 2nd best. But that was sealed. Don't know if they would be balanced without help. The one game I played long ago Aragorn's raiders very tough, and I won, but that was one game. Might have won by racing, don't remember.

[elfwarrior]

In the LOTR tcg Wiki the Towers Aragorn stater has Gimli and Legolas as the starting fellowship but in the towers rule book the starting character is Aragorn. The Theoden Starter lists Eowyn and Eomer. Whicsh Starting fellowship do I use for Aragorn?

For Theoden the rulebook lists Eomer and Eowyn as the staring fellowship. If I follow the advice and replace riders of Roahn with elite Riders, Elite rider costs 1 less twilight if it is in the starting fellowship and Eomer costs -1 if you play a Rohan companion first, and Elite rider costs -1 if it is starting, I think I could start Eomer and Elite rider VS Aragorn, or would that be too strong for the Theoden deck. If I take the advice about swapping the shadow sides a horse would give an elite rider a boost against the Uruk hai because unlike the Dunland side, uruks can be exerted by the mounted rider and then the Elite rider would get its strength bonus. And with a spear and a horse the Elite rider would be a 10 with damage + 1.  Following the advice 3 spears could replace the heavy chains, and Halfwine could replace a skirmish event (have only 1 ally, would have to use spears instead of the other 3 allies). Would that work? Those card changes changes, swap shadow sides,  Eomer, Elite rider vs Aragorn?

[elfwarrior]

I have no experience balancing decks and would like feedback on my plan to balance the Towers set Aragorn and Theoden Starters for offline play. I also do not have the exact cards suggested to balance Towers Theoden and Aragon. (elite riders yes, only 1 Halfwine (for Eomer to heal) but access to the Roahn swords from the Deluxe Towers Gandalf Starter and the Rohan spears from the Helms deep Eowyn Starter, as well as the Eowyn's starter horses which have a lower twilight cost than the ones in the Theoden Starter. )  Not sure if the wiki or the paper rulebook is right for the Towers Aragorn Starter's starting fellowship. Is it Aragorn or Legolas an Gimli? One bit of advice was try swapping the shadow sides. That would give a mounted Elite rider a bonus vs an uruk hai which can exert (Dunland is mostly 1 vitality) Would the other staring character (to go with Eomer) for Rohan work better as Eowyn or an elite rider? What would the balanced starting fellowships be?

I have put all information for my plan on the top post as well.

[Phallen Cassidy]

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to start Gimli and Legolas. If you go first, you can play Aragorn from your deck with the site. If you end up going second, I could see the argument that it's better to start Aragorn. I personally would probably still start Gimli and Legolas but it's really up to you. Starting Fellowships are played after the bid to go first and the first site is played, so it's okay to change it from game to game.

Eomer and Elite Rider are a great starting fellowship, but I might go for Eowyn instead since you have 3 Elite Riders in your deck but only one of her. Plus she'll let a companion lose twice against Uruk-hai, where otherwise that would be fatal. But I might not give them the spears? At least not all 3 -- a strength 10 companion that can effectively deal 3 wounds per skirmish (one with the horse, two for winning) is one thing, but if there's three and a free +2 from Hlafwine and events I think the Uruk-hai will be pretty helpless. The Eowyn Deck does it, but its shadow side can heal with Wolf Voices and the Legolas shadow side can dish out wounds even if it loses skirmishes to deal with it.

Do you have a group to play with, or are you planning on playing both sides on your own?

[elfwarrior]

I have someone to play with who can understand the rules of TCGs and likes to play them but does not build decks.  I was trying to play Decipher's Star Wars CCG (Started with Magic, which I was still playing and which I will still play casually) when LOTR TCG was coming out so I know about Decipher games and I'm a Lord of the Rings Fan. LOTR TCG is a favorite of ours (but only played several games of LOTR) along with Magic: The Gathering (played the most). (casual and budgety) MY LOTR TCG collection is almost all starters (from Fellowship of the Ring to Return of the King.) I also have a number of packs worth of Helms Deep and Ents of Fanghorn Cards. (tried to upgrade the Helms Deep and Ents starters but no LOTR deckbuilding experience, the results were not balanced either, hardly any Two Towers cards)

Played Moria set recently. The Moria starter Set works great. The Gimli dwarves and Gandalf goblins have bonuses against each other. Eomer can battle himself for King, And if the Aragorn deck is the 2nd only to Eomer deck for King Limited and Aragorn's Raiders can compete with Eomer's fellowship (according to a post on the king forum) Aragorn vs Eomer is worth a try.

I just need a Towers match up to include the 2nd movie. My first LOTR games were playing the Aragorn Starter vs the Gandalf Starter.

So I think switch shadow, Theoden's 2 twilight horses, 3 elite riders, my 1 halfwine, 0-1 spears ( 1-2 heavy chain, Theoden can heal a companion when you play it). (2 halfwine are 2 permanent pumps in original, with elite rider vs uruks 3 horses = 3 pumps)  Without switching shadow with your original instructions 2 pump allies and 2 healing allies would be needed vs Dunland but vs Uruks horses are pumps.

How balanced is Helms Deep Eowyn vs Legolas? I remember losing to a Southron with a Mumak last time I played that one.
I do have Helms Deep and Possibly Ents of Fanghorn cards to add to those and the Two Ents Starters.

Faramir can outrace the Ents, but that's his only chance. I use the house rule that the 3 accidental Kill Them Now are the Ferocity there should have been.

Thanks

-elfwarrior

[elfwarrior]

I notice that the adventure decks of the starters can give bonuses to their minions or penalties to the opposing fellowship.
 For the Modified Towers starters I am working on would be an Aragorn/Uruks vs Theoden/Dunland setup
(swap shadow sides, swap in some cards to help Theoden)
the adventure decks would be:
Aragorn: 1. the Riddermark (find Aragorn)
2. Any towers block site 2 (Aragorn should go First so his site 2 does not matter)
3. Westmenet Plains (dunland bonus, but I wanted to keep the Other 3 for Rohan to find Theoden if Aragorn double moves as was intended) or Medusled (does nothing here), Stables, Barrows of Edoras, Streets of Edoras are options if the Dunland site is too strong here
4. White Rocks
5. (Deep of Helm (for Uruk Hai)
6. Hornburg Armory (same for both dekcs)
7. Hornburg Causeway
8. Wizard's Vale (the other is for Dunland)
9. Palintir Chamber (came with the Uruks)

Theoden:

1. Horse Country
2. Uruk Camp (its a battleground for the Uruks, and also exerts them, Aragorn will get that when he goes first as usual so even on the other side uruks will still get this site) or Plains of Rohan Camp or Wold of Rohan or Derndingle
3. Throne Room (find Theoden if you get double moved on)
4. Westmenet Hills
5.  (either Hornburg Courtyard or the Helm's Gate that gives characters with hand weapons strength +2 because Hormburg Courtyard is bad for the Roahn Deck, and the other 5 in this starter pair gives make an uruk hai cheaper)
6. Hornburg Armory
7. King's Room
8. Ring of Isengard (Dunland bonus)
9. Orthanc Library (Came with Dunland)

Also available as possible replacements for the other 2 heavy chains are 1 spear (any more would be too many with Elite Riders And Hlafwine), 1 more work for the sword, 2 Thundering Host, 2 rohirrim bow (make a mounted Elite rider strength 9 enough to beat the 8 weaker uruks, but that's it), Rohirrim Shield (only good for discarding to heal because no minion archers)

   

[Phallen Cassidy]

I like the site choices! A few notes:

the adventure decks would be:
2. Any towers block site 2 (Aragorn should go First so his site 2 does not matter)
3. Westmenet Plains (dunland bonus, but I wanted to keep the Other 3 for Rohan to find Theoden if Aragorn double moves as was intended) or Medusled (does nothing here), Stables, Barrows of Edoras, Streets of Edoras are options if the Dunland site is too strong here

Of course Aragorn wants to go first, but what if Theoden does too? You could bit very high to make sure you go first every time, but that might put you in a bind later. So, just in case Aragorn goes second, you want sites that will do you the most good. Plains of Rohan Camp can be used to heal Legolas and Gimli if site 2 is rough without Aragorn, or encourage your opponent to slow down if you can give him a tough time. Site 2 tends to be irrelevant, but every once and a while it can change the course of the game.

Similarly, you definitely don't want Aragorn to play a site that would actively hurt him such as Westemnet Plains; especially not when he's already behind. Barrows of Edoras is a great all-around site, perfect for the Fellowship that doesn't really have a preference. Stables can be used to give your opponent an opportunity to play an extra horse and make White Rocks even more dangerous. I'd go for one of those two.

Theoden:
2. Uruk Camp (its a battleground for the Uruks, and also exerts them, Aragorn will get that when he goes first as usual so even on the other side uruks will still get this site) or Plains of Rohan Camp or Wold of Rohan or Derndingle
5.  (either Hornburg Courtyard or the Helm's Gate that gives characters with hand weapons strength +2 because Hormburg Courtyard is bad for the Roahn Deck, and the other 5 in this starter pair gives make an uruk hai cheaper)

Uruk Camp is a great option, it'll give your Riders of Rohan the boost you need in case you don't draw any horses at first. I think Hornburg Parapet will do better for you if you're gonna stick with only 1 Spear, otherwise your opponent's Broad-bladed Sword will benefit more than you.

Also available as possible replacements for the other 2 heavy chains are 1 spear (any more would be too many with Elite Riders And Hlafwine), 1 more work for the sword, 2 Thundering Host, 2 rohirrim bow (make a mounted Elite rider strength 9 enough to beat the 8 weaker uruks, but that's it), Rohirrim Shield (only good for discarding to heal because no minion archers)

All of those are solid options for their own reasons. Thundering Host is the best, so maybe one of those and a Rohirrim Bow?

[elfwarrior]

Thanks, I'll try that.

[elfwarrior]

I Played my first match with the Modified towers Starters. the opening bid was a tie. Starter rules say decide who goes first randomly, so we did not add burdens. I won the die roll so I went first.
I was playing Theoden, my opponet was Aragorn. I got Hlafwine in my opening hand, and early on my hand was minion-heavy. Still, I had some free peoples events. I got an elite rider and a horse on site 3, and Eomer also had a horse used two events to kill an uruk that responded to my first event with ferocity clear the site (no wounds for me, possible mistake) and moved again to get to site 4. White rocks (+1 twilight for my horse) and faced my first uruk rear guard and 2 other uruks. Eowyn was exhausted from her ability in this skirmish phase to save eomer and the rider, then died.

 I used a band of wild men to get past Legolas's archery at sanctuary to prevent a double.) Aragorn evntually showed up but I had my other two bands of wild men to block archery and more minions and pumps. Merry and Pippin showed up at the beginning (how many times can you add a burden to try to discard Pippin, woolly-footed footed rascal in the same skirmish phase? If it is as many as you want, maybe bidding at start of game would balance that although it is not in the starter rules). I did a lot of damage with my minions but my opponent was able to use Aragorn's move ability to clear the board and double move, but I could do more damage. I did do some damage with a weapon and events when attacking with a dunlending pillager. LEgolas exerted twice to help gimli defeat the pillager. (so legolas was exhausted but aragorn's sword was saved, a discared a pilalger early when I was minion clogged waning the streath 11 minions instead because there was no aragorn's sword to snatch.

 On my turns at sites 4 and 5 I fought two Uruk Rear-guards in a row, each with another Uruk. The first one resulted in the death of Eowyn who had already used for ability twice in that turn. the second Uruk rear guard I fought was at the opponents deep of helm so the rear gurad was cheaper (-3). A mounted elite rider died next, but Eomer won his fight with an event. The other two elite riders took turns showing up and getting horses (a moved Brego to an elite rider) Eomer was brought up to 8 strength with a bow, and I was able to heal him with Brego. I also had thundering Host out late. I got a weak minion army (2 minions) on site 7 (and I had 3 unbound companions so no archery. Hlafwine and an event helped, horses prevented still they came. I did face uruks with swords sometimes however. But not at 7. I cleared it and double moved to 8. I was a weak minion army or no minions (we were running out of minions) and when I got to 9 next turn I won.

 I was short on minions later on but had axes and death to the straw heads and I could play two minions, lose the weaker one to archery and pump the other. In an earlier fight I used tow dark fury to defeat gimli nad get a fierce. Merry and pippin were able to be thrown away to protect the others. My second double move got me ahead enough to win with 2 mounted elite riders, and Eomer had a bow, thundering host was out, and so was hlafwine. Losing other companion an Uruk rear Guard and using Eowyns;s wound preventing ability saved Eomer and help him alive to heal hlafwine. Aragorn site two was Plains of Rohan Camp, Aragorn site 3 was Barrows of Edoras, Theoden site two was uruk camp. Theoden sire 5 was hornburg Parapet, where I need 3 minions to get past the 2 archery or have enough minions to do damge after band of wild men dies. The Axes, events and fierce if they win guys would help.

 1 spear would increase the change of have that extre +2 if I don't draw hlafwine, (I needed helafwine to survide this time) but if I get both can get a strenth 12 or 2 tens which might be too tough for the uruks. I had eomer use the bow to have everyone at 8 strength instead of a 7 and a 9. I would have to order cards to get another Hlafwine (but the 2nd copy would no help ulike thundering host which I used hlafwine and events instead of, still had host at site 8 (we were both low on minions by then).  Had Eomer and 2 riders and Frodo had a hobbit sword at site 9.
I survived a small minion force. (we were both low on minions.)

That is my playtest report, I am relatively new to LOTR TCG and my opponent is a very casual player.

-elfwarrior

[Phallen Cassidy]

Ah, I hadn't thought of how harmful Hornburg Parapet would be to your shadow side. Maybe Helm's Gate would be the way to go after all? Helps everyone, but with the pillagers you have a decent shot of discarding a weapon before they get to site 5. Do you think the game was more-or-less balanced with all the changes you've made so far? Or did you have a fairly clear lead for most of the game?

[elfwarrior]

I needed my opening had Hlafwine to get ahead. I also drew an early elite rider and a horse and events. To slow down my opponent I had three Band of Wild men in a row to take the hit from legolas. Also my opponent was able to use Aragorn (when Aragon finally showed up) and Merry and Pippin, to double move and clear the board (wounding 2 minions either 1 hp or a band of wild men with 1 hp left). I also recklessly 2 events (and Hlafwine) to win a fight at a sanctuary against an uruk exerted by a mounted elite rider and double move to White rocks (a battleground) and get mauled by an Uruk Rear guard and another uruk or two. Eowyn died. Then at Deep of Helm I faced The other rear guard and another uruk a event + hlafwine helped Eomer win, but my mounted elite rider died. If I did not draw a replacement rider and replacement horse quick I would have been in trouble. but I did get that. And later got another horse and rider. I needed that to win, so it was good draws and no opposing Aragon start that helped me.

So Turn 1 hlafwine, quick replacement horse and rider, drawing enough events, and going first so no Argorn really helped. My oppoenent had both Merry and Pippin out very early, so if my opponent went first, my opponent could kill two minions by double moving, and unless I had Band of wild men (of which I had 3 in 3 shadow phases in a row) Legolas could take out another. So a starting Aragorn would have made a much tougher race. Due to starer rules which say no bidding in starter games I have a house rule, two game series (don't have to play both on the same day) and if the Aragorn deck loses, it goes first next game.

Next game will have exact same decks except Theoden site 5 will be Hormburg Courtyard (Oppoent gets two less twilight because of Aragorn but Helm's gate gives BOTH Free Peoples characters and Shadow character strength+2 if they have a hand weapon. Hornburg courtyard looks like the least trouble of the available site 5's.

At Helm's Gate Uruk Broad Bladed swords would be +4's and Dunland Iron Axes would be +5's. Some very dangerous minions. An armed Uruk Rear guard (strength 16) or armed Band of wild men (strength 16) would be very dangerous and fierce if the skirmish is not cancelled. The other 11 strength Dunlendings would be 16's too. Events would make them even more dangerous. Death to the Strawheads with enough companions out on an armed 11 (so a 16), yikes! I want to keep the one Hlafwine in so I would replace the bow with a spear, and hope for help from the 3 pillagers. There is also to Herugrim for theoden.)
Horses make it tougher to use Still they came (It was a dead card due to not being available at the same time as a usable raiding party or rear guard.)

In later games using cards mostly other starters and the available cards from packs,  Saruman's Ambitions could replace Still they came to solve the horse problem. Uruk Hai Sword is another Still they came replacement (and would make helm's game even more dangerous). It also discards a card from the opponent's deck when the uruk wins so advantage uruk hai. Uruk Slayer is a tougher Uruk that could replace The Uruk defenders or strength 8 uruks, another raiding party could also be swapped in to help Still they came vs horses. 2 Kazad Ai menu could replace 2 valor and be a +3 for Gimli instead of a +2 for Legolas. (valor is still a +3 for legoals vs Band of wild men). Another 5 twilight 11 streaght 2 vitality (with an ability I can't use) could help more vs archery. Another dunlending brigand (strength 8) is available and could replace a Dunlending Madman (strength 7 and strength +2 and fierce if it wins) if necessary. There are 2 mortal Men or 2 trust or 3 sentinles of numenor or 4 swordarm of the white tower or 3 swordsman of the northern kingdom for Aragorn.
Also 2 more swiftly and softly and 2 more severed his bonds are available. The rohirim bow could be replaced with a spear if necessary. (would match Aragorn's 2 swords but I could get both of my +2's out and they could be combined, but if hlafwine is used after the first move he can't help after the second but he can pump any rohan companion and if the rider with the spear dies the spear goes away.)

Also how balanced are the Battle of Helm's Deep starters (Legolas and Eowyn)? Cards can be moved between those two and the Theoden and Aragorn starters to set up their games.  There are more cards from the cultures in those decks available but not a huge amount. More minions, Warg and Warg Rider cards, Southrons, 2 Sword of Rohan, a second Thundering host, An honorable charge in the Theoden deck. And some elf cards.

Extra Warg cards:

1x Isengard rider
1x Warg Master
1x Warg
1x Wolf Voices
1x Sharku Warg-captain
1x Sharku's Warg
1x Isengard Scimitar
1x Isengard Scout Troop

Southrons:

3x Southron Invaders
1x Southron Marcher
1x Southron Runner
1x Southron Traveler
2x Desert soldier
1x Desert spearman
1x On the March
3x Southron Scout
1x Whirling Strike
1x Southron Veterans

Rohan cards:
2x Sword of Rohan
1x extra Thundering Host (total of 2)
3x An honorable charge (Theoden deck)
1x work for the Sword (Theoden deck)
1x Rohirrim bow
1x Hama, Doorward of Theoden
3x Eomer, sister son of Theoden (Theoden deck and Gandalf deck)
1x Helm! Helm!
1x Rohirrim shield

Elf cards:
2x Naith Longbow
1x Naith Troop
1x Agility
1x Baglin, Elven Warrior
1x Legolas' Sword

I can also build the modified Aragorn and Legoals decks from this post https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=11675.0

And for this post on how to beat the ent starter https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=9047.0

Both the Eowyn and Theoden decks are avaialble to face the Ents, with cards to improve Theoden like I already did for my Aragron vs Theoden match with swapped shadow sides.


-elfwarrior

[elfwarrior]

I played my second half of my 2 game playtest series of modified towers starters with swapped shadow sides.. I was playing Theoden again and lost. Opponent playing Aragorn going first (I went first as Theoden last time and won) got a double on turn 1. I did get to get Theoden from the throne room and I had herugrim for him. I did my own double move to get to the sanctuary but had no hlafwine and no horses. I got to use Uruk camp and my elite rider was pumped, and I cleared the uruks with events, and doubled to keep up but the 6 twilight paid for an Uruk rear guard which killed somebody. Opponent got both merry and pippin and was able to double move by using aragorn to clear my surviving 2 minions (all 1 hp or Band of wild men wounded by legolas.) Legolas would kill one unless I played band of wild men and even with band of wild men aragorn and merry and pippin could clear the board. MY nands of wild men did no show up as fast either. Severed his bonds or merry or pippin being discarded stopped minions from winning and becoming fierce. I was hoping to run to site 6 but faces 5 uruks thanks to a regular that got the 4th uruk out at -2 twilight and then a 5th. no double for me. then I had much better luck facing uruks. But aragorn got his sword (twice, a pillager discarded it once). Frodo got a sword twice (a pillager took both frodo's and aragorn's swords thanks to 6 companions). Legolas killing a minion every turn I did not have band of wild men and aragorn with merry and pippin killing 2 minions on a second move was tough. I did get hlafwine, lots of horses, 2 mounted riders and enough evenents and thundering host to do well enoung (not to mention some later sites I only face an uruk or two. And fianlly at 7 I doubled to 8.  I forced my oppent to double to 9 but I had too many Iron axe and dunland events and not enough minions. And about 12-14 twilight late. I used a band of wild men, finlally on 8.

MAybe misplayed a dunlending brigand that died to aragorn. If I help it could it have helped at 9? Pippin discarded himself ot stop a fierce. The brigand died. The pillager wond. I took aragorn's sword instad of frodo's. My mistake.  After playing my had I got to reconcile andreshuffle and finsish drawning and get and extra card from my sire 9 but got too many free peoples cards. Of course aragorn and merry killed my wouned wild men. My 2 fierce band of wild men and pillager kileld everyone except frodo. Merry discard himslef to stop the pillager from pilalging. But frodo got 2 more exerts I could stop 1 discard attempt. I lost.  If my Irom axes ahd ben minions... I did have 2 dunlending madman on top of my deck if I drew them instead of those free peoples cards I would have won.  but Ineeded exactly those two or maybe I discarded the wron sword at 8. Perkaps holding the brigand. i think I should have kept the brigand and maybe used up some axes and evnets. I wanted a minion to live but it died to aragorn. I disarmed aragaron's sword (aragorn ahd 3 wonunds. I was trying to kill everyoen and get ot frodo. Aragon had 3 wounds legoals or gimle had to take a hit from an armed pilager and aragorn ahd ot fight first to kill the brigant or h'd lose his swod and die. The brigand dies and I took aragorn's sword. Yes I should have taken frodo's sword. and kept the brigand. I got two band of wild men at nine that was it. Both bands + discard frodo's sword + the brigand I got killed could have been a win. the wining hand with the tow dunlending mandmen mad men was the only option if frodo had a sword.. Not sure if I remember it right close game anyway. with exhaousted aragron, legolas and gimli, and merry. All of those would be killed or discarded and an unarmed frodo four face a fierce band of wild men and die. I would have decide to save my axes (would I have saved an axe if I help the brigand? would I figure that out? And tkae frodo's sword away and leave Aragorn at 10 so 2 band of wild men one armed pilager and one armed brigand (with a band of wild men taking a hit from legolas)  would have been enough. Would I have drawn everyhing wiht one less draw from keeping hte brigand? not sure I remeber.

I needed all 10+ power minions and 2 band of wild men and tow axes for the other 2 OR pillager, 2x band of wild men, 2x dunlending madman.
for win. So I needed a super strong hand to win. And either should have had the setup if I played right or could have had the right setup with drawing less free peopeles cards the end site 8.
So with legolas and aragorn, wingfoot and merry and pippin its one minion dies to archers then remaining two minions die to aragorn and merry and pippin on the second move. And merry and pippen can be discarded to stop pillagers from pillaging or stop minions that need to win to become fierce. Very tough with mostly 1 vitality minions. Very tough for Dunland, need super hands like those I described earlier. And tougher to race too going second two doubles was not enough, aragorn doubled twice and went to 9. I also played around still they came. Maybe its too weak against horses. Maybe my opponent should have discarded it. I don'y know if my oppoennt did or not.

See my previous post about possible changes to the decks. I also need a proper site 5 for theoden that does not help aragorn. The one that is 8 twilight for me but only 6 for Aragorn was the least dangerous one I could give to the theoden deck. I could try helm's gate but uruk swords would be +4's and Iron axes would be +5's seems dangerous


way tougher game whene aragorn goes first and gets played by the riddermark

the modified Aragorn deck here had a few orcs from the Faramir starer to soak up arrows. https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php?topic=11675.0

 I was using the unmodified  aragorn shadow with theoden and the unmodified  theoden shadow with aragorn. the theoden free peopels side was modified. 

-elfwarrior.

[elfwarrior]

The opening suggestion for balancing the towers theoden and Aragorn starters was "Remove your 3 Rider of Rohan for 3 Elite Rider or 2 Elite Rider + Hrethel, then remove the Heavy Chains and a skirmish event for up to 2 copies each of the allies Guma and Hlafwine (Leod and Weland work great too, but they're uncommon) and you're set. If I keep the Aragorn and Theoden starters shadow sides with out swapping them, I only have 1 hlafwine
but 3 rider's spear, 2 sword of rohan, 2 thundering host, Rohirrim shield, 4 rohirrim bow, 1 rohirrim helm (most of the Dunland minions have only 1 vitality and can't exert), and 3x rider's mount, hama, doorward of theoden

I already tried swapping the shadow sides and making some suggested changes, makes for a good game, but not sure about balance, posted 2 playtest reports. One with Theoden going first (theoden won at sire 9) and one with Aragorn going first (aragorn won at site 9), but maybe Aragorn should have lost to a super shadow had If I played stie 8 right, not sure if all the cards I had would have still been high enough in my deck, or if I would have figured out it was important to keep a weapon in hand that I could have played  if I kept the minion back. I would have kept one minion in hand (it died when I played it without thinking)
 and drawn 1 less card. Getting the right cards would have been a win. Anyway a super shadow hand was needed to defeat Aragorn's fellowship and it may have been available if I played site 8 right.

I would like to see if the actual Aragorn and Theoden Staters decks can be balanced, without swapping the shadow sides, using the cards I mentioned in this post, for another option for a game.

I will eventually collect some affordable Towers Block cards for building on the towers starters.

-elfwarrior

[Phallen Cassidy]

I hadn't considered how much damage Legolas would do to Dunland. I think including 2-3 Isengard Tinkers/Isengard Journeyman from the Faramir starter is a great idea. Just something to soak up an arrow occasionally, not something to nullify Legolas entirely.

I'm interested to see how the games go without swapping Shadow sides, but giving Rohan some of those tools. You're definitely going to need to get some cards if you want to get much further, though -- they are only starter decks, after all. 'Course, it's all the fun and none of the financial commitment at http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/

[elfwarrior]

Thanks, I'll try that. I will be playing more LOTR games on GEMP first.

For when I test towers starters again I picked Aragon, Theoden (which I have been testing) and Legolas (there is another post about balancing Towers starters that includes balancing Aragorn against Legolas.) Aragorn and Legolas from that post. My swapped shadow Aragorn vs Theoden. Aragorn vs Theoden with their normal shadow sides. And what if Aragorn uses Theoden's Uruks vs Legolas? (In a post about winning a starter games vs the Witch King/Ents starter Theoden's
 shadow is describes as being able to make the Ents "think twice") And how would modified Theoden (with either the normal uruks or Dunland with Isengard Orcs from Farmir) handle Legolas's Shadow. I lost to Legolas's shadow with Eowyn years ago and Eowyn has elite riders, horses and spears, I already borrowed Elite Riders for Theoden, could swap in the spears and improved (cheaper) horses from Eowyn. And eventually order towers cards because a collection of Towers starters and several packs each of Helm's Deep and Ents of Fanghorn and one pack of Towers has its limits.

-elfwarrior

[elfwarrior]

I set up the  60 card Towers Block Starters on GEMP for testing purposes. I plan to collect affordable Towers Block paper cards.

I found that the starters on GEMP are 60 cards and simply add cards to the starter lists. The Theoden starter added both healing allies and 2 well stored (which heals a villager) I made the changes you suggested for the paper deck, replacing the heavy chains with a Hlafwine and a Leod. Two allies need mounted companions and this is a 60 card deck so I replaced the last Heavy chain with a second Brego. (it heals) I replaced the riders of Rohan with Elite riders. Of course shadows can still be swapped for alternate versions. Then some higher vitality minions would have to be added to the Dunland side if they are facing Legolas and Aragorn Wingfoot.



Here are the decks Maybe repalce theod and Weland with another Hlafwine and another Guma in case horses get stolen by one of the 4 pillagers? Is pump villager and one heal villager on the board enough? then the mounted only villagers could be replaced

Modified GEMP Theoden with Uruk Hai:

Theoden Starter Modified
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Adventure deck:
Horse-country
Uruk Camp
Throne Room
Westemnet Hills
Deep of Helm
Hornburg Armory
King's Room
Wizard's Vale
Palantir Chamber

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
3x Elite Rider
3x Théoden, Lord of the Mark
1x Éomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Éowyn, Lady of Rohan
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Leod, Westfold Herdsman
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
2x Brego
2x Herugrim
3x Horse of Rohan
2x Hobbit Sword
4x An Honorable Charge
3x Work for the Sword
2x Well Stored

Shadow Draw Deck:
4x Orthanc Warrior
3x Uruk Defender
4x Uruk Fanatic
2x Uruk Rear Guard
2x Uruk Regular
4x Uruk Stalker
4x Uruk-hai Raiding Party
3x Broad-bladed Sword
2x Ferocity
2x Still They Came

GEMP Aragorn

Aragorn Starter
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring

Adventure deck:
The Riddermark
Rohirrim Village
Westemnet Plains
White Rocks
Hornburg Courtyard
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Ring of Isengard
Orthanc Library

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
2x Legolas, Elven Comrade
3x Aragorn, Wingfoot
3x Merry, Learned Guide
3x Pippin, Woolly-footed Rascal
2x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Best Company
3x Valor
3x Knocked on the Head
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Swiftly and Softly

Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Band of Wild Men
4x Dunlending Brigand
4x Dunlending Madman
4x Dunlending Pillager
4x Dunlending Robber
4x Dunlending Savage
3x Iron Axe
2x Dark Fury
2x Death to the Strawheads

Thank you

-elfwarrior