Allowing certain Promos in Movie Block

[hrcho]

Since we have allowed Mr. Underhill to be played in any deck that allows Reluctant Adventurer, I was thinking we could also add other Promos from that edition. Namely 0P62 - 0P66. Those are:

Gimli, Dwarven Delegate
Arwen, Maiden of Rivendell
Gandalf, Stormcrow
Boromir, Steward's Heir
Eomer, Forthwith Banished

It is much easier than creating new cards and provides us with the same effect: increased deckbuilding and playing options. None of those cards seems too powerful, they don't involve any post-MD mechanics and they could be a really nice addition to Movie Block. The only thing that makes them different from other Movie Block companions is their lack of signets.

What are your thoughts?

[Tbiesty]

None of those cards seems too powerful, they don't involve any post-MD mechanics and they could be a really nice addition to Movie Block. The only thing that makes them different from other Movie Block companions is their lack of signets.

What are your thoughts?

I like it.

[ununtrium]

I agree, as well. I wouldn't know, why anyone would use gandalf, stormcrow, but the others are perfectly usable. Besides, the lack of signets could be explained.

- Arwen does not have one, because this version could be seen as a "pre-gorn-infatuation" arwen; hence no signet

- Gimli is still a delegate and has not shown his colors yet; hence no signet

- Gandalf is a blank, so there is no place for a signet, either.

- Boromir is a self-centered minas tirith-jingoistic "§$%&, so, if any, he should have a boromir signet!

- Eomer is banished, so why should he have a signet???

Anyway, just a couple of random thoughts. Feel free to delete or move.

[hrcho]

- Boromir is a self-centered minas tirith-jingoistic "§$%&, so, if any, he should have a boromir signet!

 

[FM]

Now THIS is a nice move.

[Kralik]

Eomer seems a bit too powerful to me. Hmmmm...

[hrcho]

Eomer seems a bit too powerful to me. Hmmmm...

Why? He is definitely not more powerful than Eomer, TMoR and should he be allowed, I think that TMoR will still be more used by far. The only slightly more powerful combination involving Eomer, Forthwith Banished is having a starting fellowship comprised of Eowyn (or another comp), Eomer, Forthwith Banished and a hobbit (probably Merry, Swordthain).

[Kralik]

The only slightly more powerful combination involving Eomer, Forthwith Banished is having a starting fellowship comprised of Eowyn (or another comp), Eomer, Forthwith Banished and a hobbit (probably Merry, Swordthain).

Ah, but that's what I mean. Pretty nice companion for only !

[Ringbearer]

I am unsure of this, we move rather fast with proposal after proposal, and the cards seem unneccesary to add. They are (IIRC) from a period after movie, and they donot add value to movie block. I rather see the TLHH movieblock moretowards Deciphermovie, just adressing the bad parts Decipher movie has. Absence of these promos is not among the bad parts of movie.

[hrcho]

Ah, but that's what I mean. Pretty nice companion for only !

Yeah, but not much else. He is not as strong as Eomer, TMoR and having him enhance just one type of deck doesn't make him OP.

They are (IIRC) from a period after movie, and they donot add value to movie block.

We are on our way of creating virtual cards (mostly for Movie Block). How is this much different? I see it only as a much easier way to add a few cards. It's not like we're talking about entire sets, just 5 cards that will in no way diminish the playing experience, but have a good chance of enhancing it.

Should any of those cards prove OP in some combo (although I doubt they will), we can always reevaluate it and ban it.

[Tbiesty]

I agree with hrcho.  Let's give this stuff a try. We can always reevaluate it in the future once players get a chance to actually try it for a while and decide for themselves.

[Kralik]

Yeah, but not much else.

Let's compare with other cost companions that have little going for them...

Ordulus
Lorien Elf
Dwarf Guard

...and last, but not least, the hobbitses.

Typical Strength 7 Vitality 3 companions usually cost , such as Alcarin, Faramir, and Boromir.

On the other hand, the power creep is pretty typical for Decipher at the time. Glorfindel, Revealed in Wrath for -- are you kidding?! (Yes, I do use him in one deck).

[hrcho]

Let's compare with other cost companions that have little going for them...

Ordulus
Lorien Elf
Dwarf Guard

Those are some nondescript characters and this is Eomer. He should be stronger. But as I said, you don't get that many options with him. You have to spot a companion for Eomer to cost and since there are no Ring-bearers, that leaves you with a limited choice so you can't really use him everywhere as you would Galadriel, LR for example. Next, he needs a lot of help to win skirmishes and ultimately to survive. With a hand weapon, he is a strength 9 companion which is not bad, but more often than not it's not enough.

As I already said, many player's first choice will still be Eomer, TMoR and occasionally Rohirrim Captain for those who wanna go Valiant.

[Tbiesty]

Glorfindel, Revealed in Wrath for -- are you kidding?! (Yes, I do use him in one deck).

Hmm... I guess this would mean that each of the "big folk" races would have one cheap power companion to start with.

Dwarves have:  Durin III, Dwarven Lord
Elves have:  Glorfindel, Revealed in Wrath
Men have: Eomer, Forthwith Banished

In specific decks he can be useful, but I still think Eomer, TMoR is the best.

[jdizzy001]

I've been pushing to leagalize these cards since I started playing. I think it is a lagit move. Don't add anything to them, just legalize them and go. They don't need a signant. even if arwen would be awesome with a gorn sig.

[TheJord]

Eomer, Forthwith Banished might actually help out a bit, who are, frankly, the weakest Free Peoples culture.

[ramolnar]

Eomer, Forthwith Banished might actually help out a bit, who are, frankly, the weakest Free Peoples culture.

But it won't, because Eomer, TMoR is still better.

It's funny how Rohan's fortune changed. When introduced, they were terrible. Inside Towers Block they were OK, but lots of things were OK. Then after RotK they were decent; I played them to win a territorial championship. But Corsair Marauder shut them down, because the Rohan strategy is to let 3rd Marshall hammer things. Then, in Reflections, Gimli ringbearer and Durin made Dwarves just as strong at beating down things, while being cheaper.

[TheJord]

Touche, maybe with some (V) cards being produced we can help out

[hrcho]

Any more thoughts on this? I'll be opening a poll regarding this soon, but I'd like to see some more feedback.

[Kralik]

You might want to wait until things are sorted out regarding how fast things should move, timing between polls, and so on.

[Imrahil]

I don't know how I feel about "adding" cards to Movie Block.  I mean "Mr. Underhill" is an interesting addition, but he also potentially changes the corruption game in the block.

Admittedly, the additions you are proposing hrcho seem relatively benign (with the exception of Boromir and Eomer who provide significant advantages within their cultures).  I just don't like the precedent it sets, especially with the hint that V-cards are looming on the horizon.  I'm all for erratas on banned cards in Movie, but I don't believe in the addition of "new" cards, premium or otherwise.

[Kralik]

Imrahil, could you please clarify on how Mr. Underhill (P) affects corruption?

[Imrahil]

Well I could "clarify", but I think you know what I mean. :-)

(I melded him with Resolute Hobbit, sorry.  I am perfectly happy with allowing promos which are reprints of cards already in existence within the block).

[Kralik]

(I melded him with Resolute Hobbit, sorry.  I am perfectly happy with allowing promos which are reprints of cards already in existence within the block).

Therein lies my confusion.

[Tbiesty]

Here's a thought about the overall process and timeline (since it's very important that we have a plan):

Stage 1)  Decide if the "promos" are to be allowed.
           --We are doing this now.  The promos that this discussion concerns are the last of the promos that
             make sense to include.
           --Perhaps have a few more days of discussion, and then hold a poll for a week.
           --Update GCCG based on results.
           --No other GCCG update (except bug fixes. etc.) for three months so players get a chance to use the
             promos that are allowed with no other changes.

Stage 2) During those three months, hold discussions and iron out the "unbanning" (for each card,
              this would be either "completely unbanning", changing to "restricted", or "errata" as a last
              resort) of the "banned" cards.
           --This would be a one-time "cleanup" to allow the card pool to be maximized (getting cards out
              of binders/boxes), but while still maintaining the fairness and balance that we expect.
           --A separate discussion topic for each card but discussions would be done in parallel, even if
              discussions seem to be done, we would wait the three months before "finalizing" it.
           --At the end of the discussions (i.e. in three months), hold polls in parallel to determine what to
              do with each card.
           --Update GCCG based on results.
           --Doing this as single "bulk" update would maybe take players a week or two to get used to
              the changes, plus they would be able try out everything together.  Furthermore, now that
              I think about it, if we did this as a long drawn-out series of single-card "monthly" updates,
              things would constantly be changing for a long time, which I find to be the most confusing
              scenario.
           --No other GCCG update (except bug fixes, etc.) for three months so players get a chance to
              use the "unbanned" cards.
           --After those three months, players discuss/vote on whether the "unbanning" was successful
              or unsuccessful. We can keep, tweak, or complete undo the "unbanning" based on this feedback.

Stage 3) After step 2 is done, at some interval (say every 6-12 months), the "Dream Team" releases a
               small (around 10 cards) V-set.  The first one is currently in progress. This keeps the game
               fresh and helps add a little excitement.


Seem reasonable?

[FM]

It does. However, time frame to "let the community feel them" won't do, you need to hold tournaments. At least 2-3. THAT might give you real data to work with.

[FM]

Yeah, but not much else.

Let's compare with other cost companions that have little going for them...

Ordulus
Lorien Elf
Dwarf Guard

...and last, but not least, the hobbitses.

Typical Strength 7 Vitality 3 companions usually cost , such as Alcarin, Faramir, and Boromir.

What was that you said about Aragorn, Strider, again?

[Tbiesty]

It does. However, time frame to "let the community feel them" won't do, you need to hold tournaments. At least 2-3. THAT might give you real data to work with.

Hmm... Having a couple GCCG tournaments during that time frame to "test drive" the updates.  I like it!    Perhaps this could be the start of a regularly scheduled GCCG tournament (e.g. TLHH Worlds 2011).  Excellent possibilities!  

[Ringbearer]

Except in those three months we can do nothing with virtual cards cause they have to get used to the promos first. That is not gonna work. On the front of adding cards, I think there should be more cross-referencing with the the Virtual department and not just adding what rules people like, else we feel like spamming the community with cards.

[Tbiesty]

Except in those three months we can do nothing with virtual cards cause they have to get used to the promos first. That is not gonna work. On the front of adding cards, I think there should be more cross-referencing with the the Virtual department and not just adding what rules people like, else we feel like spamming the community with cards.

At the current pace we are going with the first virtual set, it'll probably take about 9 or so months before the entire first set is complete and ready for the rest of the community to try out.  I don't think that's a bad thing at all.  We should take our time designing it.

[FM]

Except in those three months we can do nothing with virtual cards cause they have to get used to the promos first. That is not gonna work. On the front of adding cards, I think there should be more cross-referencing with the the Virtual department and not just adding what rules people like, else we feel like spamming the community with cards.

Now THIS is pushing. See, the idea of creating V sets is to keep the game fresh and interesting. Then, you see someone involved basically saying "I'm against this OTHER way to try and improve the game, thus keeping it fresh, without the need to develop new cards or make any big changes, because it gets in the way of the changes we're trying to implement". Bad for business, I say. I said this before and I'll say it again, I wholeheartly support the V-Set, but as I said time and again, you guys are moving too fast, while you COULD adress other (less-impactating) aspects of change first. Fix cards that do not work, unban cards, release V-sets (and take these as an opportunity to create counter-measures to the unbanned cards, see if it works), THEN ban cards. And then, later, think about errata'ing them (or simply design a V-version of it with the errata, way easier to remember and it doesn't require re-coding GCCG to display the new text since it'll be a different card).

[hrcho]

I am perfectly happy with allowing promos which are reprints of cards already in existence within the block.

But Mr. Underhill is not a reprint. Despite the same text as Reluctant Adventurer, it is a different card. Even though the only difference is the signet, it changes things. The addition of these other promos really does seem benign and as far as Boromir, Steward's Heir and Eomer, Forthwith Banished are concerned, they don't really provide that significant an advantage.

Eomer has already been discussed a bit and despite his potential low cost, he is still weaker than Eomer, TMoR and thus provides a minor enhancement to only few deck types and that's not a bad thing. It won't make those decks OP, but it will provide more options.

Boromir, Steward's Heir is a nice addition. I always wondered why there isn't a Ring-bound Boromir (with the exception of Bearer of Council) when he was definitely drawn by the ring's power. He will most likely be used in Ranger or Knight decks. Honestly, he is not such a great addition to Knights - not much is gained. He is a very nice addition to Rangers and that is also not a bad thing since Rangers are much underplayed and not as strong in movie as they were in TTT or TS. And if people wanna splash a ring-bound companion, Faramir, SoD is still a far better choice.

As I said, we are already working on Virtual cards which we intend to implement into Movie Block so why not use cards that are already there? Especially since none of those cards will have that great an impact on the Block, but they add a bit of flavor to it.

[Kralik]

What was that you said about Aragorn, Strider, again?

Perhaps there's more that I didn't say that I should have! Remember that we are talking about Movie Block here. The ridiculousness power creep of later sets is a topic for another thread.