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October 11, 2008, 02:28:34 PM
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TheJord

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Helpless on RB Sam
« on: October 11, 2008, 02:28:34 PM »
I have Sam, Bearer of Great Need with Frodo, Frenzied Fighter, and if Helpless gets played then Sam loses his gametext. This just means that Sam no longer gets his resistance bonus.

Ok, so whats the point of Helpless??? I play it on Sam, Son of Hamfast and it does.... what? Nothing?
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October 11, 2008, 02:50:36 PM
Reply #1

Pepin The Breve

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 02:50:36 PM »
   His game text wouldn´t apply. So he will not be able to peel burdens out. It´s always good have SoH  :x when you play with Nazgul corruption. Anyway, i don´t like so specific as this.

   I guess you were thinking that his hability isn´t part of his gametext maybe?

October 11, 2008, 02:51:16 PM
Reply #2

NappyKorn

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 02:51:16 PM »
The main point of that card when it was made was to keep Sam from becoming the Ring-Bearer if Frodo was killed.
If a Balrog falls from a bridge and noone is around, does it make a sound?

October 11, 2008, 02:56:34 PM
Reply #3

Malachi

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 02:56:34 PM »
I believe Helpless was originally designed to disable Sam's ability go become the Ring-bearer if Frodo dies. So, if you play it on Son of Hamfast he cannot use his abilities and basically becomes useless. If you play it on Bearer of Great Need, he loses his ability and resistance, which could be quite deadly. So, it's a very powerful card if played against the right deck.

October 11, 2008, 02:59:19 PM
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Elessar's Socks

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 02:59:19 PM »
Game text was described in the August 2007 CRD if you'd like all the gritty details. But basically it covers everything in the box (barring stuff like lore and collector's info), including bolded keywords.

October 11, 2008, 03:43:53 PM
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TheJord

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 03:43:53 PM »
This I find interesting, because game text and abilities people often seperate. If what ES says is true, Sam can no longer have the ring-bearer keyword and you lose
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October 11, 2008, 04:03:16 PM
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Elessar's Socks

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 04:03:16 PM »
Hold on, that's not good. :lol:

Quote from: August 2007 CRD, "game text"
Game text includes all the text in the box below the card type line except for helper text, lore, collector's info, and marketing text (such as "DGMA Premier Series – France"). On a site card, this box is located below the image (there is no card type line on a site). On The One Ring cards, there is no box around the game text, but the concept is the same.

Any boldfaced keyword that appears in this box (such as Easterling, Fierce, or Defender +1) is game text. Card titles, subtitles, and items on the card type line (card types, races, and classes) are not game text. Exception: On an event card, the word to the right of the card type (such as MANEUVER or SKIRMISH) is game text.

Sometimes game text is added to a card by an effect, even though that text is not printed on that card.

*sighs and reaches for the other rules documents* Wonder how Decipher got out of this one. Maybe it has something to do with the ringed resistance icon.

October 11, 2008, 04:18:48 PM
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TheJord

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 04:18:48 PM »
Good ol' D. In the other thread we are saying that bearer requirements dont matter after a card is attached to a companion.

So if Sam loses his ring-bearer keyword does this not matter? Does the ring not just float away?
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October 11, 2008, 06:48:38 PM
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Thranduil

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 06:48:38 PM »
But BoGN does not have the Ring-bearer keyword (though it would seem that he would lose Ring-bound, though perhaps not if my next "postulation" ( ;) ) is correct). Instead, he has a ringed resistance which would make him the Ring-bearer independently of his game text? If so, then he also becomes automatically Ring-bound because he's the Ring-bearer.

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October 11, 2008, 07:27:19 PM
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Elf_Lvr

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 07:27:19 PM »
Well, rules say that all ring-bearers (and Sams) have Ring-bound, even if it's not printed on the card, right?

And yeah, they don't actually have the "Ring-bearer" keyword either - it's sort of implied by the ringed resistance. I guess.

That's really the only way I can explain it.
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October 11, 2008, 07:43:15 PM
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Elessar's Socks

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 07:43:15 PM »
Instead, he has a ringed resistance which would make him the Ring-bearer independently of his game text?
That's what I was thinking, but unfortunately the ringed resistance icon just makes the character gain the keywords Ring-bearer and Ring-bound (if bearing The One Ring), which crashes into this:

Quote
Sometimes game text is added to a card by an effect, even though that text is not printed on that card.

(Nevermind that icon-less versions of Sam are still out of the loop.)

How about just saying the Ring-bearer always has the Ring-bearer and Ring-bound keywords in effect (cannot be lost, still applies even if the rest of the game text does not apply). Yeah. *passes around some chicken wings*

October 14, 2008, 11:16:49 AM
Reply #11

SomeRandomDude

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 11:16:49 AM »
Well, rules say that all ring-bearers (and Sams) have Ring-bound, even if it's not printed on the card, right?

Yes, at this is important to remember with the reflections ring-bearers, Boromir, for example, is unbound unless played as the ring-bearer. And thus, ring-bound is a result of being the ring-bearer, meaning that even if Sam loses the ring-bound text, he's still ring-bound, i.e. can't be killed by Lackey or other stuff that hates on unbound comps.
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October 15, 2008, 08:15:04 AM
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DáinIronfoot

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 08:15:04 AM »
He stays the Ring-bearer and thus Ring-bound as well. That's the only way I think you can rule it, especially since it is the ringed resistance ICON rather than text that makes him a potential Ring-bearer in the first place.

It's a very nasty way of dropping his resistance to only 5, though. :twisted:
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October 15, 2008, 09:19:19 AM
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leokula

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 09:19:19 AM »
Well when there are no specific rulings I think we should all go for common sense. I say RB Sam loses his game text but keeps being the RB.

OK, D missed this one, but we're talking about a card that no one plays for centuries, so it's useless discussion  ](*,). Anyway as NK said, it was meant to help twilight nazguls and keep sam away from bearing the ring, not win the game outright by removing "Ring-bearer" from the RB's game text.

October 15, 2008, 09:32:14 AM
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Pepin The Breve

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 09:32:14 AM »
He stays the Ring-bearer and thus Ring-bound as well. That's the only way I think you can rule it, especially since it is the ringed resistance ICON rather than text that makes him a potential Ring-bearer in the first place.

It's a very nasty way of dropping his resistance to only 5, though. :twisted:

    Dáin get it right here... Any character with the resistence ring icon is consider a ring-bearer. If you play Helpless on him just his game text will go away...yeah i know...evil.

October 15, 2008, 09:45:16 AM
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Thranduil

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 09:45:16 AM »
He stays the Ring-bearer and thus Ring-bound as well. That's the only way I think you can rule it, especially since it is the ringed resistance ICON rather than text that makes him a potential Ring-bearer in the first place.

It's a very nasty way of dropping his resistance to only 5, though. :twisted:

    Dáin get it right here... Any character with the resistence ring icon is consider a ring-bearer. If you play Helpless on him just his game text will go away...yeah i know...evil.
Obviously we all know the common sense answer to this question, but that's not what this discussion is really about given that it's a question about the rules. It seems to me that ES is right: the rules as written say that Sam loses Ring-bearer because the ringed resistance icon works by adding the keyword "Ring-bearer" to his game text. That said, obviously you would play this unlikely situation in whatever way you and your opponent decide is appropriate (which will almost certainly be the common sense answer) given that there are no official tournaments anymore.

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October 15, 2008, 12:24:16 PM
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Pepin The Breve

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 12:24:16 PM »
  From CRD 4.0

  You may choose any character with the ringed resistance icon, or any version of Frodo, to be your Ring-bearer.

  "Companion cards have resistance. This number represents a companion's ability to withstand the lure of The One Ring. Some characters have a ring around their resistance icon, meaning they can be chosen begin the game as your Ring-bearer."

   So i presume if they have the ring resistence they can start bearing the ring and if they keyword is gone they still can hold on the ring cause they still have "ringed" resistence icon and thus they can still be the RB. You can think this way: If teh RB have the number 7 in the icon means that he/she have resistence 7. even that he looses all his game text (which could include resistence) his ring icon still there, gently informing us of it´s resistence and of it´s hability to be the RB.

   That´s what i think about it.

October 15, 2008, 12:41:32 PM
Reply #17

FM

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 12:41:32 PM »
Bottom line is: does losing the keyword "Ring-bearer" actually makes you lose the game?
I think Pepin's got it. There is nothing on the rules that SPECIFICALLY says that if the ring-bearer "stops being a ring-bearer" you lose, so I don't think a hole in the rules should make you lose the game. I believe yes, he stops being "ring-bearer", and if the r-b dies he wouldn't be able to bear the Ring, but WHILE bearing the ring, nothing happens, he'll still bear the Ring and will still be able to USE the Ring (since it's the Ring's ability), but in the case of RB Sam bearing The One Ring, he WOULD lose his resistance bonus.

October 15, 2008, 01:34:26 PM
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Elessar's Socks

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2008, 01:34:26 PM »
What if the Ring-bearer is defined as the character bearing The One Ring? (You can sort of argue that from the "Ring-bearer" entry.) So it doesn't matter if the Ring-bearer keyword is lost where the game is concerned--you still can't cancel Sam's skirmish, you can still play PAtHS, etc. However the Ring-bound keyword is lost, so that will affect the likes of Bilbo, Aged Ring-bearer.

Note that this interpretation doesn't involve keywords "off to the side," so it's still in line with keywords being added to the game text. It's just another way of defining the Ring-bearer. Better still it covers versions of Sam with and without the ringed resistance icon.

October 15, 2008, 02:05:35 PM
Reply #19

FM

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2008, 02:05:35 PM »
Ring-bearer can't be defined as such, because all characters with ringed resistance are considered to have the keyword ring-bearer, and older versions of Sam actually DID have the keyword, and they could still be played as regular companions.

October 15, 2008, 03:25:31 PM
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TheJord

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2008, 03:25:31 PM »
I think we can conclude that Decipher never ruled on it because

A) It probably never came up
B) Decipher dont care

So it all comes down to this question

Does the Free People's player lose if the ring-bearer loses the ring-bearer keyword?
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October 15, 2008, 04:37:47 PM
Reply #21

Elessar's Socks

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2008, 04:37:47 PM »
Ring-bearer can't be defined as such, because all characters with ringed resistance are considered to have the keyword ring-bearer, and older versions of Sam actually DID have the keyword, and they could still be played as regular companions.
Characters with the ringed resistance icon gain the Ring-bearer keyword only if they're bearing The One Ring (Sam gains it when the Ring is tossed to him). I think it's safe to say that you'll have only one character with the Ring-bearer keyword at a time.

If the rulebook straight out said "Your Ring-bearer is your character bearing The One Ring," I don't think that will change anything substantial. In most cases this definition will overlap with the Ring-bearer keyword anyway. But if Helpless hits that would avoid tearing a Plot Hole in the game. :lol:

Granted it's playing a bit loose with the rules, though, so at the end of the day it's a homemade patch.

Does the Free People's player lose if the ring-bearer loses the ring-bearer keyword?
This is like in a FPS where you discover some place the designers don't intend you to be, and anything can happen. :o Otherwise I'd go with what FM was saying and continue on.

October 15, 2008, 05:10:03 PM
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Thranduil

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2008, 05:10:03 PM »
... he'll still bear the Ring and will still be able to USE the Ring (since it's the Ring's ability)...
But the Ring's ability specifies clearly "Ring-bearer" and if Sam loses Ring-bearer, then the One Ring's wound prevention text no longer applies to anyone because there is no character with the "Ring-bearer" keyword.

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October 15, 2008, 10:58:41 PM
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MR. Lurtzy

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2008, 10:58:41 PM »
So Sam would lose ring-bearer but be the bearer of the ring?

October 16, 2008, 07:46:16 AM
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DáinIronfoot

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2008, 07:46:16 AM »
I think it depends upon your definition of what makes Sam, Bearer of Great Need the Ring-bearer. Is it his text? No...he doesn't HAVE any text that makes him the Ring-bearer. In my opinion, it is his ringed resistance icon which merely implies he has the text of being the Ring-bearer...it doesn't create that text anywhere. Since the text "Ring-bearer" does not appear, and since the ringed resistance icon is NOT text itself, I don't think he loses "Ring-bearer" because of Helpless at all. Helpless does not affect his icon, which I believe is the one and only thing that makes him an eligible Ring-bearer, so Helpless does not affect his Ring-bearer status.

Now Ring-bound, on the other hand...that's a little more dicey. Obviously, logic would dictate that, as the Ring-bearer, Sam would still be Ring-bound regardless of the effects of Helpless, because the rules DO state that anyone bearing the Ring gains "Ring-bound" automatically. I would THINK that that would override the effects of Helpless, but it is admittedly a bit more cloudy.

Logically, Sam would still be the Ring-bearer AND Ring-bound. In actuality, there is a definate grey area on the latter.
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October 16, 2008, 02:53:57 PM
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Elessar's Socks

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2008, 02:53:57 PM »
Feels like closing arguments. :lol:

Quote from: Comprehensive Rulebook
Your fellowship begins with a character bearing The One Ring. This can be any character with the ringed resistance icon, or any version of Frodo. That character gains the keywords Ring-bearer and Ring-bound, if he does not already have them.

Quote from: CRD
Sometimes game text is added to a card by an effect, even though that text is not printed on that card.

In other words, if Bearer of Great Need is bearing The One Ring, the ringed resistance icon adds the keywords Ring-bearer and Ring-bound to his game text. Helpless makes his game text not apply, which includes these keywords. The ringed resistance icon is not affected, but the game simply can't "see" the added keywords. This is similar to a situation where an [Orc] Orc bearing Orkish Hunting Spear ("bearer gains Hunter X") is targeted by Phial of Galadriel, Star-glass. Even though OHS is unaffected, the Orc still loses the hunter bonus, because the bonus is considered to be part of his game text.

Now I think that's the strict interpretation, but if we guess the designers' intent, I doubt they meant for a situation to arise where the Ring-bearer keyword can be lost. Helpless requires spotting Frodo, which may have been intended to prevent this situation once Sam receives the Ring (which I overlooked earlier). So disregarding the rules, I think Sam should keep his Ring-bearer keyword.

As Dain mentioned the Ring-bound keyword is a gray area, and I gave an example earlier where Ring-bearer could be kept while Ring-bound is lost. But honestly, I think Helpless is the only card that could fuddle with this issue, and it originally couldn't even play on Sam after he received the Ring. So while we're fuddling with the rules, we might as well let him keep Ring-bound as well.

In a nutshell:

Rules: loses Ring-bearer, loses Ring-bound.
Changing the Ring-bearer definition: keeps the Ring-bearer status (but loses the keyword), possibly loses Ring-bound.
Intent: keeps Ring-bearer, keeps Ring-bound.

If I was playing against someone, I'd go with intent. Ring-bearer and Ring-bound stay, and a CRD entry gets added.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 03:00:04 PM by Elessar's Socks »

October 18, 2008, 08:36:53 AM
Reply #26

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2008, 08:36:53 AM »
As Dain mentioned the Ring-bound keyword is a gray area, and I gave an example earlier where Ring-bearer could be kept while Ring-bound is lost. But honestly, I think Helpless is the only card that could fuddle with this issue, and it originally couldn't even play on Sam after he received the Ring. So while we're fuddling with the rules, we might as well let him keep Ring-bound as well.

Actually, Ring-bound isn't that hazy, since the comprehensive rules state that, whether explicit or not, "all versions of Frodo and Sam are Ring-bound."

October 18, 2008, 10:23:24 AM
Reply #27

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2008, 10:23:24 AM »
Good heavens. There's more problem than just whether or not you lose because you don't have an RB.

I mean, intent is obvious. But "supposed to be" and "actually is" are often two entirely different things.

Theoretically, let's assume for a moment that there were 6 companions, and you dropped a Helpless on Sam with one wound, then dropped an Ulaire Enquea, LoM? So much for immunity.
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Reply #28

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Re: Helpless on RB Sam
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2020, 10:54:10 AM »
Hold on, that's not good. :lol:

Quote from: August 2007 CRD, "game text"
Game text includes all the text in the box below the card type line except for helper text, lore, collector's info, and marketing text (such as "DGMA Premier Series – France"). On a site card, this box is located below the image (there is no card type line on a site). On The One Ring cards, there is no box around the game text, but the concept is the same.

Any boldfaced keyword that appears in this box (such as Easterling, Fierce, or Defender +1) is game text. Card titles, subtitles, and items on the card type line (card types, races, and classes) are not game text. Exception: On an event card, the word to the right of the card type (such as MANEUVER or SKIRMISH) is game text.

Sometimes game text is added to a card by an effect, even though that text is not printed on that card.

*sighs and reaches for the other rules documents* Wonder how Decipher got out of this one. Maybe it has something to do with the ringed resistance icon.

So I'm inferring that the "All copies of Sam and Frodo are ring-bound" rule is not an "effect" because it doesn't make sense to me that a rule is an "effect".

Thus, to me, Sam will always be ring-bound because the rule is not game text by a super strict definition.

Sorry for reviving a dead thread, lol.
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