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August 26, 2009, 12:16:04 PM
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Olorin

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my next (may be tricky) questions
« on: August 26, 2009, 12:16:04 PM »
Hi guys,

what about this: Gandalf (S)kills

I.) I have 4 comps in play and 4 threats. I play Saved from the fire and place one comp into the dead pile to... --> now, do I have to place threat wounds? Has a character been killed due to Sftf?


II.) I have Aragorn in play. I have Elendil in the dead pile. I play borne far away. I place a second copy of Aragorn from my hand into the dead pile to get Elendil out from the dead pile.
     --> Elendil is not dead anymore, right? I may play Elendil now. But how about Aragorn? Is he now dead? Do I have to place the other copy from him in play also into the dead pile?


******************************************************


III.) Legolas' Bow:
...if you play an event or condition... exert... heal... bla bla bla

Does this also count for toil-exertions? --> Exert for Toil is not the same as "to play exert..."

I am curious about your comments  :mrgreen:
Mithrandir I am known to the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin was the name in my youth in the West which is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; into the East I will not go."

August 26, 2009, 12:54:11 PM
Reply #1

menace64

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 12:54:11 PM »
(Not 100% sure) > Threats are activated whenever a card enters the dead pile. "Killed", "dies", "placed in dead pile" are all the same as far as threat manipulation is concerned.

That's a really good situation with Borne Far Away; not sure if it's come up before. You're correct that Elendil wouldn't be dead anymore, but that bit about Aragorn is tricky. I would be inclined to rule that whichever Aragorn was in play first takes precedence - in this case, Aragorn would remain in play despite having an Aragorn in the dead pile.

Yes, Legolas' Bow covers toil exertions. Anytime you would exert him to satisfy any aspect of the condition or event in question you get to use the bow's ability (of course, just once per phase).

August 26, 2009, 01:49:32 PM
Reply #2

ket_the_jet

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2009, 01:49:32 PM »
what about this: Gandalf (S)kills
I.) I have 4 comps in play and 4 threats. I play Saved from the fire and place one comp into the dead pile to... --> now, do I have to place threat wounds? Has a character been killed due to Sftf?
Place 4 threat wounds on the remaining characters.

II.) I have Aragorn in play. I have Elendil in the dead pile. I play borne far away. I place a second copy of Aragorn from my hand into the dead pile to get Elendil out from the dead pile.
     --> Elendil is not dead anymore, right? I may play Elendil now. But how about Aragorn? Is he now dead? Do I have to place the other copy from him in play also into the dead pile?
Elendil is no longer dead. Feel free to play him at your leisure. I will say I am not sure what to do about Aragorn. My inclination would be that he is discarded and threat wounds are activated as there is now a copy of Aragorn in the Dead Pile. To my knowledge (through Mount Doom) the only card that allows you to play a copy of a character in the Dead Pile is Sent Back. Let me know if I am missing one, guys.

III.) Legolas' Bow:
...if you play an event or condition... exert... heal... bla bla bla
Does this also count for toil-exertions? --> Exert for Toil is not the same as "to play exert..
Legolas' Bow does indeed cover Toil exertions. Remember, it's once per phase!


I am really interested to see where the Borne Far Away conversation goes!
-wtk

August 27, 2009, 01:03:13 AM
Reply #3

Elessar's Socks

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 01:03:13 AM »
I.) I have 4 comps in play and 4 threats. I play Saved from the fire and place one comp into the dead pile to... --> now, do I have to place threat wounds? Has a character been killed due to Sftf?
Yes, a character has been killed. From the rulebook: "When game text instructs you to place a character in the dead pile, that character has been killed."

Quote
II.) I have Aragorn in play. I have Elendil in the dead pile. I play borne far away. I place a second copy of Aragorn from my hand into the dead pile to get Elendil out from the dead pile.
     --> Elendil is not dead anymore, right? I may play Elendil now. But how about Aragorn? Is he now dead? Do I have to place the other copy from him in play also into the dead pile?
The Aragorn in play stays in play. The rules stop you from playing a copy of a unique companion in the dead pile, but it doesn't tell you to do something about one already in play. So he's good.

Quote
III.) Legolas' Bow:
...if you play an event or condition... exert... heal... bla bla bla

Does this also count for toil-exertions? --> Exert for Toil is not the same as "to play exert..."
Yeah, I know what you're getting at with the wording (there's another thread on this somewhere), but in a nutshell Legolas' Bow works with toil.

August 27, 2009, 09:23:36 AM
Reply #4

Olorin

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 09:23:36 AM »
Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?

Is everyone sure about Legolas' Bow (toil-exertions, etc.?)

Run until found can give hunter 1. If I remove two tokens... it is still hunter 1, right?
Mithrandir I am known to the Elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin was the name in my youth in the West which is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; into the East I will not go."

August 27, 2009, 11:55:18 AM
Reply #5

ket_the_jet

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 11:55:18 AM »
Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
I would presume not, based upon Elessar's Socks' understanding on how the card works. Personally, I would presume it kills Aragorn (in your example) and thus, you have to assign threat wounds. But if it doesn't kill the Aragorn in play, then no, you would not assign threat wounds.

Is everyone sure about Legolas' Bow (toil-exertions, etc.?)
Yes, I am absolutely sure about that. Legolas' Bow does indeed work on Toil cards as well.

Run until found can give hunter 1. If I remove two tokens... it is still hunter 1, right?
Actually, you get "Hunter 1, Hunter 1." That is different than "Hunter 2," as it is 2 strength +1 bonuses as opposed to one strength +2 bonus.

Hope that helps.
-wtk

August 27, 2009, 01:37:53 PM
Reply #6

Zoskan

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 01:37:53 PM »
Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?

Like Ket, I don't think it will activate threat. The differrence with Saved From the Fire is the wording: With SFTF you PLACE a character in the dead pile and with Borne Far Way you EXCHANGE a companion in the dead pile, which I think it isn't the same. I'm not 100% sure about that though.  :-k

Run until found can give hunter 1. If I remove two tokens... it is still hunter 1, right?

It gives you 2x Hunter 1, so if you skirmish a non-hunter minion it will give your companion a +2 strength bonus. In a way it's like the Ambush keyword: think of any Southron with ambush bearing a Raider Bow as well, it will give you Ambush 5 + Ambush of your southron.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 08:21:13 PM by Zoskan »

August 28, 2009, 06:26:43 PM
Reply #7

Elessar's Socks

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 06:26:43 PM »
Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
Its game text isn't instructing you to "place" a character in the dead pile (even if you're physically placing/dropping/tossing the card in there), so it won't. As Zoskan said, this is just an "exchange".

August 28, 2009, 07:38:19 PM
Reply #8

Kralik

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 07:38:19 PM »
Well... can Borne far away cause threat wounds by placing a companion into the dead pile?
Its game text isn't instructing you to "place" a character in the dead pile (even if you're physically placing/dropping/tossing the card in there), so it won't. As Zoskan said, this is just an "exchange".

Don't forget that with Borne Far Away you are simply using a companion from your hand, NOT a companion from in play. Thus no threat wounds.

August 29, 2009, 03:01:33 PM
Reply #9

Thranduil

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 03:01:33 PM »
Yes, Kralik has hit the nail on the head. Borne Far Away can't trigger threats because the companion goes to the dead pile from hand. If it a card exchanged companions in play and the dead pile, then threat wounds would be placed because a companion from play was going to the dead pile.

And ES's rulings are, to my knowledge, all correct: 1) threat wounds trigger from SftF, before you have a chance to play cards gained from it, 2) Aragorn remains in play - you cannot play another copy of Aragorn, and if the one in play dies you will still not to be able to play another one, but the one in play is unaffected, and 3) Legolas' Bow works for toil exertions.

Thranduil
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 03:03:43 PM by Thranduil »

August 30, 2009, 12:37:27 PM
Reply #10

St. Grimmin

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2009, 12:37:27 PM »
I would have to disagree with the born far away. What would be the point of placing a comp in the dead pile if it did not kill him. I believe the point of the card is to use a comp you dont need to get one you do otherwise it would just say to discard a comp not place in the dead pile.
Molan Labe

August 30, 2009, 01:18:12 PM
Reply #11

Thranduil

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2009, 01:18:12 PM »
I would have to disagree with the born far away. What would be the point of placing a comp in the dead pile if it did not kill him. I believe the point of the card is to use a comp you dont need to get one you do otherwise it would just say to discard a comp not place in the dead pile.
No, kill is when a companion goes from play to the dead pile. Borne Far Away puts a guy from hand to the dead pile. This is not the same as either 1) being "placed in the dead pile", where the "from play" is implied, or 2) being "killed", where again the companion has to be in play first.

Thranduil

August 30, 2009, 01:52:46 PM
Reply #12

St. Grimmin

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2009, 01:52:46 PM »
Then why does it say to place in the dead pile? what is the down side? how can you have aragorn in the dead pile and in play?
Molan Labe

August 30, 2009, 01:53:32 PM
Reply #13

St. Grimmin

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2009, 01:53:32 PM »
that just seems weird to me
Molan Labe

August 30, 2009, 02:09:14 PM
Reply #14

Thranduil

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Re: my next (may be tricky) questions
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 02:09:14 PM »
It may be weird, but those are the rules! The rules for the dead pile only come into effect when you are playing a companion, as ES said.

Thranduil