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Author Topic: What should we do with the Merchant?  (Read 5313 times)

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April 03, 2013, 03:53:29 PM
Reply #30

Kazik

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2013, 03:53:29 PM »
For me second way is the best. No merchant means no merchant crashes. It would mean, that road to having cool colection will be much longer but funnier.

April 03, 2013, 06:34:02 PM
Reply #31

JudgeDRG

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2013, 06:34:02 PM »
I think the ability to buy boosters AND singles is one of the best of this site, and I do not wish a stupid guy who found out about the exploit should ruin the experience for the rest of us.
I vote keep merchant as it is, and don't let this happen again. If for some reason a card skyrockets, you should shut down merchant imediately and restart merchant prices.

April 03, 2013, 07:07:12 PM
Reply #32

Skeeve

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2013, 07:07:12 PM »
Maybe capping commons at say, 10g, uncommons at 100g, and rares at 1000g? or 5/50/500?  I think that just might slow it down, tho.

April 05, 2013, 07:34:02 PM
Reply #33

luixx

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 07:34:02 PM »
Hi. I think there is a bug whem Madril 15R64 activate his +1 roaming for each threat in the start of maneuver. Minions stacked in possession (like 17C66) are being made romaing too. The rules says: "Stacked cards are not in play and are not active. You cannot spot them." Even cards in discard pile, entering the game after the "start of maneuver", are roaming!!!
Can you see this for me. Is that a bug, right?
Sorry about my english.

April 06, 2013, 12:14:34 PM
Reply #34

sgtdraino

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2013, 12:14:34 PM »
OK, the same caveat as the last time I commented on the merchant. I am an economist in real life so forgive any jargon.

Before we try to understand how to "fix" the merchant, it is important to recognize 1) what are its goals and 2) how is it not meeting those goals.

1) The goal of the merchant is to help distribute cards in a fair and consistent fashion to the people that value the cards the most given wealth. At a fair price, there will be some people with the card who value the card less than the price and so will sell it and others who value the card more and so will buy it, given enough wealth.

I'd like to revisit #1, because it has never been clear to me what the goal of the gemp merchant is. I feel like I know what its goal is SUPPOSED to be, and that is:

*To give players a collecting experience that mirrors the collecting experience in real life, back when cards were still being made.

...But it seems to me that the gemp merchant has never come remotely close to that goal, nor has it even tried to. To my mind, it has overcomplicated the process, and yet ultimately created an environment that is nothing like real-life collecting was and is. The merchant seems overly focused on simulating an economy, and not focused enough on what the end-results are, i.e. the experience had by the players.

2) I believe that most people would agree that there are two primary ways in which the merchant does not seem to be working.

The first is "the exploit" where someone with multiple accounts manipulates the price of the merchant in order to sell the card at an inflated price. At least, I assume that is what the exploit is. The only person I know that has admitted to performing "the exploit" is Hugh-Jass (which is a great Simpson's reference). He claims that the exploit is still in the current system.

I think that's part of it. I think another part of it is people using multiple fake accounts to start a tournament, and then letting their main account win the tournament and get the biggest prize support.

The second (and often related) problem is that sometimes prices do not reflect the true value of the card. While this problem will hopefully lessen if we can completely do away with "the exploit," I believe there are some corner cases where this problem could crop up again.

It seems to me that the only sure-fire way of doing away with the exploit, is to fix-price and/or price-cap all of the cards. If users cannot influence the prices of cards, then there is no exploit.

In my opinion, we should not switch to a trade system because any exploit that is possible with the merchant is doubly destructive with trade.

I tend to agree... although trading is a big part of the real-life experience. Without it, gemp can't really simulate that.

We should also not change the merchant to sell packs instead of singles or to be a fixed price, as this will make it much harder for someone to construct the deck they want and will not allow for the same flexible allocation of cards as the merchant or trading does.

I'm with you on the first part. I don't really see the point of a merchant that won't sell singles (I'm amazed this idea is so popular!), and in my experience the card distribution when buying packs from the merchant can be really terrible. If there is no option to buy singles, it's all down to luck.

I disagree with you on fixing prices, though. How would fixing prices make it harder for someone to construct a deck they want? Just make all prices uniformly reasonable. Say, all commons cost 1g, all uncommons cost 5g, all rares cost 50g. Sure, some rares will be more popular than others. But WHO CARES???

Is it really necessary to have fluctuating prices for a fake economy dealing in virtual cards that don't really exist?

I prefer the former to the latter as I want truly new players to quickly become invested in the game. They should be able to make a deck that has a chance at winning.

I've been here for months now, and the current systems have not helped me become invested in anything gold-related. I never used any exploits, and found it far too difficult to create a viable deck of My Cards that I actually wanted to play. I was also annoyed and discouraged by sealed deck leagues that don't let you keep the sealed deck cards. I finally put forth the effort (without exploits) to build my first viable My Cards deck... which was then promptly erased by MarcinS when he reset the system. So, my current impulse it to just say screw the merchant, the gold, and anything "My Cards" related, and just play casual.

I also feel like the current gemp environment is biased against players who want to play Expanded Format. That's pretty much all I really want to do: Play in Expanded Format leagues and tournaments. Expanded Format is one of the top three most-played formats on Gemp, yet it doesn't get very many leagues, nor does it get a Daily tournament. So, Gemp is not catering to what I really want to do, other than casual play.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

April 07, 2013, 05:41:49 AM
Reply #35

Cthulhu

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2013, 05:41:49 AM »

I don't really see the point of a merchant that won't sell singles (I'm amazed this idea is so popular!),

I'm surprised too. What good is the merchant, when you cant buy the cards you need for your decks? Like someone said earlier, it will be real hard for new players to build decent decks, when they have to buy multiple boosters until they get a set of say Isengard Warrior (not to mention if they need some rare, thats crucial for their deck strategy)...

I'm a fan of the thicket idea Grond suggested (http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,8468.0.html), its smart, helps new players and everyone who wants to play tournaments, and makes multiple account exploit not possible.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 05:44:26 AM by Cthulhu »
My current Gemp Tengwar count: 133 + 4

April 07, 2013, 07:55:21 AM
Reply #36

Skeeve

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2013, 07:55:21 AM »
Don't be amazed or surprised.  One of the refreshing things to come out of the reboot is the lack of multiple power cards.  I've seen 6+ fellowship sizes creeping in, more condition-based shadows, no more fear of archery, etc.  The people who are continually winning tournies are the ones that bought singles with their 200/250 gold, as opposed to the people who only bought starters (like me).  Starting over is like what we did when the game first came out irl:  With the option of trading being the only method of getting some rares, store owners weren't selling singles yet, or they were in small quantities, and Ebay wasn't as popular as it is now.

When I first started playing irl, I didn't know people well enough to trade, so I made my decks around the few rares I opened.  I'm guessing that was the case for a lot of people where there weren't organized tournaments.  If you like a certain deck so much, then do what I had to do when I first got on Gemp, play sealed leagues for boosters until I was able to cobble together a deck with my pack winnings.  I didn't bother with the merchant for a few months until I needed to "tweak" my decks for My Cards leagues.  I didn't have much gold as everything I got was being spent on starters and leagues (this is before the dailies were in place).  

Or if people are so concerned about having their "best deck", let everyone choose their 60-70 favorite cards (1 credit per card, regardless of rarity), then shut down the merchant for that person when they spend their credits.  However, the multiple accounts will skyrocket then, and it defeats the point of collecting, which shutting down will only increase the fun.  I still think the best option is to shut down the singles altogether to eliminate the abuse, and maybe bring down the cost of packs.  

You wanna play for fun?  Play casual.  You want an even playing field?  Play sealed.  You wanna collect and play 'My Cards', then yer gonna have to work for it over time, and become a very good with the jank you have.  Working as intended.

I think the voting reflects that this is what the majority prefer.  Most of us didn't come to rl tournaments with internet purchased decks, but I know the percentage of people that did, and I see that :P  and that's not an attempt at a bitter burn, just the reality.

My .02
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 07:59:31 AM by Skeeve »

April 07, 2013, 08:01:52 AM
Reply #37

Skeeve

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2013, 08:01:52 AM »
Maybe another option would be to have a merchant My Cards, and a non-singles HardCore Collector's Cards....  :-k

April 07, 2013, 08:06:58 AM
Reply #38

sgtdraino

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2013, 08:06:58 AM »
You know, on second thought, I can actually get behind the idea of having no way to buy singles. It seems to me the best thing to do with the My Cards stuff, is to make it as DIFFERENT from Casual as possible. In Casual, you have as many copies as you want, of whatever card you want.

For My Cards, if there truly is NO WAY to get a specific single, then it all becomes like one gigantic never-ending sealed deck event, one where you actually get to KEEP THE CARDS you use. I like that. However, just a couple of things:

You wanna play for fun?  Play casual.

We should ALL be playing for fun, regardless of the format. Having fun is one of the primary objectives of the game.

You want an even playing field?  Play sealed.

If we go this route, then it basically IS sealed, just on a larger scale.

I do wish there were daily tournaments for the people who like Casual, though.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

April 07, 2013, 08:21:48 AM
Reply #39

Skeeve

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2013, 08:21:48 AM »
Nah, I play 'my cards' for the competition, and it isn't fun, not in the disney cotton candy care bear sense of fun, but in the sweaty hands, consequences-for-my-actions, throw my computer "fun".  :)

I should have used a better word, but I can't think of it atm.

April 07, 2013, 10:57:58 AM
Reply #40

sgtdraino

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2013, 10:57:58 AM »
Nah, I play 'my cards' for the competition, and it isn't fun, not in the disney cotton candy care bear sense of fun, but in the sweaty hands, consequences-for-my-actions, throw my computer "fun".  :)

Can't see that I really see a difference, beyond just caring about the outcome of the game you play. So, for some reason you care when you're limited to "My Cards" only, but you don't care when you have the option to build a deck exactly the way you want it?
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

April 07, 2013, 11:04:56 AM
Reply #41

Skeeve

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2013, 11:04:56 AM »
Pretty much... I've noticed I care less about my games now that they are casual.  In fact, I haven't played any casual games except towers standard because I want more towers leagues from the stats, and cause I'm working on anti-dauntless decks in the hopes of a towers standard daily in the future.  I just can't get excited about a game when there's access to all cards, but that's me, and I'm sure I'm in the minority.  I'll take sealed over anything any day.


But then, I've been playing for a very, very long time.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 11:12:14 AM by Skeeve »

April 07, 2013, 11:57:41 AM
Reply #42

bign19

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2013, 11:57:41 AM »
I havent been following everything too closely, but I see to have gone from over 2000 gold to 200 gold. Was there a reset? Or just something bugged?

April 07, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
Reply #43

sgtdraino

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2013, 12:20:57 PM »
Pretty much... I've noticed I care less about my games now that they are casual.  In fact, I haven't played any casual games except towers standard because I want more towers leagues from the stats, and cause I'm working on anti-dauntless decks in the hopes of a towers standard daily in the future.

That makes it sound like you care more because it's a league or a tournament, rather than because you don't get to build a deck the way you want.

I just can't get excited about a game when there's access to all cards, but that's me, and I'm sure I'm in the minority.  I'll take sealed over anything any day.

I like sealed okay, but I definitely prefer constructed.

But then, I've been playing for a very, very long time.

I don't think that can have much to do with it, since you can't possibly have been playing longer than I have.

I havent been following everything too closely, but I see to have gone from over 2000 gold to 200 gold. Was there a reset? Or just something bugged?

Everyone's gold was reset because some people were unfairly gaming the system to increase their own gold. I suggest they don't bother trying it again, because the gold will simply get reset again. A lot of work for nothing but aggravation for everyone else.
"I would have followed you, my brother... my captain... my king." - Boromir

April 07, 2013, 12:24:49 PM
Reply #44

bign19

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Re: What should we do with the Merchant?
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2013, 12:24:49 PM »
Also my "my cards" and unopened packs are gone. Is this the same reason?