The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: Zoskan on January 22, 2009, 09:48:27 AM
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Hello again! Should be a simple question for all the Masters out there: Can someone play a Relentless Charge to exert his enduring nazgûl even if there's no archer to wound? One of my friend is doing this all the time and I'm not sure it's quite legitimate.
Thanks for the help. :P
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Yes; he is paying the cost (exert a nazgul) in order to gain the effect (wound every archer companion). Just because there are no archer companions does not prevent him from paying the cost.
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Just thought about another situation that could involve Relentless Charge: If you have Rumil, Silvan Elf and your opponent play Relentless Charge, does Rumil spot then a wounded minion and he become an archer making him take a wound 'cause of RC?
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Tricksy, but I would say yes. The cost comes before the effect, and in this case Rumil would become an archer before the effect happens. Someone correct me if this is wrong.
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I would say no it doesnt, as the cost of a card cannot be part of the effect, like Fury of the White Rider cannot spot the tokens added as part of its cost.
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I think TJ that you're right; the effect resolves only by wounding each companion that was an archer when you started playing the card.
Thranduil
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Ah good point!
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The wounds from Relentless Charge are not simultaneous, right? If they're assigned one at a time, I'm not sure why Rumil wouldn't be effected.
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The wounds arent placed simultaneously, but the cost of playing a card cant affect its effects.
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Haha, major brain fart. For some reason I had it my head that Rumil was keying off a wounded (archer) companion, and not the Nazgul itself. :suspect: Okay, now that I get the situation...
I'm not seeing how Fury of the White Rider relates. Spotting 3 twilight tokens is a requirement, not a cost. Requirements must be met before paying costs, which is why FotWR can't key off of that. Relentless Charge is a cost/effect issue and not a requirement/cost issue. I think Rumil will still take that wound.
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The wounds arent placed simultaneously, but the cost of playing a card cant affect its effects.
I've got to throw another wrench in the gears here, as this has to do with a question I have. Look at Decipher's notes for Under the Living Earth:
The twilight token added for the cost of this card adds to the strength bonus provided by its effect. For example: if the twilight pool is empty when this card is played, Gandalf is strength +1.
So the cost clearly alters the effect.
Keep that in mind, and here's another question:
If Fat One Wants It is on the table and you play So Polite, does the threat added by FOWI add to twilight. Based on the ruling for UtLE, I would think yes... hmmm... :-k
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If Fat One Wants It is on the table and you play So Polite, does the threat added by FOWI add to twilight. Based on the ruling for UtLE, I would think yes... hmmm... :-k
I'd say yes. FOWI triggers before the effect of So Polite (because the costs must first be paid, and one cost is to play Gollum).
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Under the Living Earth has an effect that spots twilight tokens.
With Relentless Charge, at what point does Rumil spot the wounded minion? Before or after the costs are met? What gets priority? I say the event does.
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Rumil's language ("while") seems to indicate that at any point there is a wounded minion, he gains archer.
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Rumil's text triggers when the FP player can spot a wounded minion. This happens after a Nazgul exerts as a cost of Relentless Charge. Then when the effects are performed, Rumil is wounded because he's now an archer.
To turn this around, why should Rumil wait until after the effects are performed? If he has to wait, then why are response actions (e.g. Unheeded) allowed to step in? The rules use the same "trigger" terminology for both. Response actions have a trigger describing when they may be performed. "While" text also have a trigger describing when they take effect. It seems like a stretch to say that when a minion exerts, Unheeded can detect this trigger immediately, but Rumil cannot.
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If my opponent plays corsair marauder to discard one of my possessions may I prevent that if I use shadowplay/unheeded combo and kill corsair marauder immediately?
Was this minion than played?
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I would say no, due to the double action you're taking
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hmm... if this is dependant of the double action... than it could be possible though... but the minion is played, or not?
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If my opponent plays corsair marauder to discard one of my possessions may I prevent that if I use shadowplay/unheeded combo and kill corsair marauder immediately?
Was this minion than played?
GE is right. As a free people player you get the first opportunity to respond to the playing, so you can trigger Shadowplay and exert Marauder. Then the shadow player get his/her turn and choose a possession to discard. Only then the freeps can play Unheeded to kill Marauder.
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hmm... if this is dependant of the double action... than it could be possible though... but the minion is played, or not?
According with step 4 of the "playing a card" issue the card is already in play. The effects "when you play" (and the opportunity to respond to this card being played) happens now. Other efects happen later.
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hmm... thanks guys... this sounds logically to me...
I am just wondering if there is a "one-step" method to kill such a minion before the effects happen? - any idea?
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Shadowplay and Unheeded have different triggers. For each trigger, optional actions follow the action procedure. That means the FP player gets the first shot (with optional actions) both when the Marauder is played, and when the Marauder exerts. So yes, you can kill the Marauder before the Shadow player gets the opportunity to discard a possession.
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Really?
I think that would be a great chance to protect his possessions from corsair marauder or mumak commander... I didn't really know this... but thanks Elessar's Socks!
Have a :gp:
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I see ES point and i guess he may be right but i´m still not sure about it.
I guess the freeps have the first chance to respond....then they respond again to the situation created by his first response and the poor shadow player lose his action? Kinda unfair but...hey...who says that lotr tcg was a fair game?
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ES is wrong. The marauder was still played, and the SP still gets to discard a weapon and add tokens.
I don't have time to find the exact rule right now, but will you take my word knowing that I was a worlds level judge?
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Well, i think the best way of clearing a doubt when the rulebook seems unconclusive is a word of an ex-decipher agent ;)
So i must say that justice was done...
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Shadowplay and Unheeded have different triggers. For each trigger, optional actions follow the action procedure. That means the FP player gets the first shot (with optional actions) both when the Marauder is played, and when the Marauder exerts. So yes, you can kill the Marauder before the Shadow player gets the opportunity to discard a possession.
That doens't exist, man, there's no way you exert and wound and the shadow player just sit and watch.
All "When you play" actions would happen before the response to the exertion. You can't respond to the exertion if not all "when you play" actions have been performed yet.
ES is wrong. The marauder was still played, and the SP still gets to discard a weapon and add tokens.
I don't have time to find the exact rule right now, but will you take my word knowing that I was a worlds level judge?
I will :)
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...interesting...
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Are we talking about two different things here? Is the order correct but the Shadow player still gets to discard, or is the order itself incorrect? I left it ambiguous here until I could get a response in this thread. (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php?topic=1534.30) I agree that either way, the Marauder was played.
If it's the former, that actually brings things in line with costs/effects (unless the ruling is reversed for those).
I'm not sure "fizzling" is even covered in the rulebook. Let the Worlds level judge decide. :lol:
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Shadowplay and Unheeded have different triggers. For each trigger, optional actions follow the action procedure. That means the FP player gets the first shot (with optional actions) both when the Marauder is played, and when the Marauder exerts. So yes, you can kill the Marauder before the Shadow player gets the opportunity to discard a possession.
Surely by this logic the Marauder discards a possession.
1) The card is played
2) Any action that triggered off the playing of the card happens, starting with the Free Peoples player and Shadowplay, followed by the Shadow player discarding a possession.
3) Now there's new things happening and the Free Peoples player gets to respond to the exertion with Unheeded.
Thranduil
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Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you had to respond to each trigger when it happens.
For the sake of argument, let's say the FP player has three cards in play:
F1: "Each time a minion is played, wound a minion."
F2: "Each time a minion is played, remove a burden."
F3: "Each time a minion is played, remove a threat."
The Shadow player has three cards in hand:
S1: "Response: If a minion takes a wound, add a threat."
S2: "Response: If a burden is removed, add a threat."
S3: "Response: If a threat is removed, add a burden."
A minion is played. Are you saying the Shadow player can't respond to any of the FP cards until they're all resolved? I was thinking when F1 is resolved, that's when you can play S1. When F2 is resolved, that's when you can play S2, and so on. And not that you have to wait for F1-3 to resolve before you can play any S1-S3.
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Although Olorin was the wisest of all Maiar now it seems that he lost his orientation ???
I would say that to F1 S1 follow... so that there is a change of actions between the shadow player and the free peoples player...
...but I can't combine this exactly to the example with the corsair marauder...
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perhaps a second try may help us:
my opponent plays Corsair Marauder
I have a card in hand that says: "Response: if a minion is played wound him to death" ... or just "wound him twice" ... etc. main goal is: Marauder gets so much wounds that hie would dy according to his vitality. so there are the actions: 1.) a card is played 2.) response: the minion is about to die
is the possession now about to be discarded?
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the point is that if you were able to wound him enough to kill him because he was played, then his text will also kick in before he hits the discard pile. he was played, his text says "when you play this minion, if you can spot another corsair, you may discard a possession to..." - when you play. he was played. sure, you get to kill him, but i still get to use his text. because he was played.
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Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you had to respond to each trigger when it happens.
For the sake of argument, let's say the FP player has three cards in play:
F1: "Each time a minion is played, wound a minion."
F2: "Each time a minion is played, remove a burden."
F3: "Each time a minion is played, remove a threat."
The Shadow player has three cards in hand:
S1: "Response: If a minion takes a wound, add a threat."
S2: "Response: If a burden is removed, add a threat."
S3: "Response: If a threat is removed, add a burden."
A minion is played. Are you saying the Shadow player can't respond to any of the FP cards until they're all resolved? I was thinking when F1 is resolved, that's when you can play S1. When F2 is resolved, that's when you can play S2, and so on. And not that you have to wait for F1-3 to resolve before you can play any S1-S3.
I obviously have no idea, I was just following what I understood from your logic! :P
I think you might have to wait until all those FP cards are played until you can play those Shadow cards, but I don't think that means the trigger is no longer there. I mean, does that actually affect any gameplay in that example? Let's think of a different situation when the order matters.
Say the Free Peoples player has 2 cards:
1) "Each time a minion is played, you may wound that minion."
2) "Each time a minion takes a wound, you may remove [2]."
and the Shadow player has a card:
1) "Each time a minion is played, you may remove [2] to draw a card."
The Shadow player plays a minion and the actions that trigger on playing a minion take place in an order decided by the Free Peoples player. Say there was less than [4] in the pool after playing the minion. Can the Free Peoples player to choose their action to trigger first, then slot in a second triggered action before other actions that triggered on the first event took place?
Assume they can do that. Now there's a new trigger to deal with, the fact that the minion has been wounded and the Free Peoples player gets to remove [2]. Now when the Shadow player comes to removing [2] to draw a card, they can't because there's not enough in the pool. Does the Shadow player get to draw a card? :-k
Thranduil
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Well, you know what I'd go with. ;)
If the order is right, I think I can finally revise that line to "So yes, you can kill the Marauder before the Shadow player gets the opportunity to discard a possession... not that it helps, because the action must still be resolved." Aah--I'm horrible.
But if the order itself isn't, it seems all this time I thought up was down.
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This is too much for me:
Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you had to respond to each trigger when it happens.
For the sake of argument, let's say the FP player has three cards in play:
F1: "Each time a minion is played, wound a minion."
F2: "Each time a minion is played, remove a burden."
F3: "Each time a minion is played, remove a threat."
The Shadow player has three cards in hand:
S1: "Response: If a minion takes a wound, add a threat."
S2: "Response: If a burden is removed, add a threat."
S3: "Response: If a threat is removed, add a burden."
A minion is played. Are you saying the Shadow player can't respond to any of the FP cards until they're all resolved? I was thinking when F1 is resolved, that's when you can play S1. When F2 is resolved, that's when you can play S2, and so on. And not that you have to wait for F1-3 to resolve before you can play any S1-S3.
But ok, I'll think about it.
In the Corsair Marauder case, off course he gets to discard a fp posession. If Shadowplay clearly says "..a minion is played..." it means he WAS played.
How come the shadow player will get no effects while paying the cost and ignore the rest of the text of that same card played?
I must say
... there's no way you exert and wound and the shadow player just sit and watch.
has to be the bottom line!
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Cheers daisukeman :up:
Gees, what a mess ur making out of it, ES ... ](*,)
Tell me one thing: how can you go straight to respond to an exertion and completely ignore a "when you play" statement? If you exerted a minion, means he's already been played, soooo... :D let's do the "when u play" before the bloody response action!
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Take your pick:
- First trigger: minion (Corsair Marauder) is played.
- FP player: exerts Marauder with Shadowplay.
--- Second trigger: minion is exerted.
--- FP player: wounds Marauder with Unheeded (Marauder is killed).
--- Shadow player: passes.
- Shadow player: discards a possession with Marauder.
Or:
- First trigger: minion (Corsair Marauder) is played.
- FP player: exerts Marauder with Shadowplay.
- Shadow player: discards a possession with Marauder.
--- Second trigger: minion is exerted.
--- FP player: wounds Marauder with Unheeded (Marauder is killed).
--- Shadow player: passes.
You'll note that in either case, a possession is discarded. I was satisfied with that after HawkeyeSPF said yes. Since actions, once triggered, must be resolved even if the source card has been discarded, it doesn't matter if the Marauder leaves play first.
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Tell me one thing: how can you go straight to respond to an exertion and completely ignore a "when you play" statement?
Dude, that'd be totally crazy. Enquea LoM exerts. FP player plays 3 Unheeded in a row, and passes. Now you can finally respond to the wounds. Shadow player plays 3 Sweeter Meats in a row. Enquea lives again.
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Since actions, once triggered, must be resolved even if the source card has been discarded, it doesn't matter if the Marauder leaves play first.
That's totally not the point #-o but anyway, this topic is getting ridiculously big for a so simple issue that it's stupid to go on. At least we all agree he can't be killed before discarding the possession.
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Here is my explanation :uh-huh: (I like this one :uh-huh:)
When you play corsair marauder, you put the card very slowly on the table. On his way, you choose a posession. Marauder is still approaching the table. Now, you discard a posession. Meanwhile, Corsair Marauder reaches the table.
Know it hits the table and it is played.
Shadowplay triggers.
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Here is my explanation :uh-huh: (I like this one :uh-huh:)
When you play corsair marauder, you put the card very slowly on the table. On his way, you choose a posession. Marauder is still approaching the table. Now, you discard a posession. Meanwhile, Corsair Marauder reaches the table.
Know it hits the table and it is played.
Shadowplay triggers.
So the moral of this story is: always play your cards very slowly so that your opponent gets the timing right! :lol:
Thranduil
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I usually have to do more than just move slowly. I often will have to flat out tell my opponent to play a card or use an ability against me. Lotr newbies I tell ya!
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Here's another example. Gollum wins a skirmish, and the Shadow player has 2 YaLaaT in hand. FP player has Intimidate. If all actions from the trigger "Gollum wins a skirmish" must resolve first, that means the FP player can't step in with Intimidate until both YaLaaT are played.
That also means you can have several companions sitting on the table with 0 vitality, whose fate hasn't been decided until "Gollum wins a skirmish" finishes and "about to take a wound" happens. Or that the Shadow player can't even kill a companion with one vitality, since Intimidate always goes after both YaLaaT (and I don't think you can overkill someone). That sounds totally wrong to me. I think when the Shadow player plays the first YaLaaT, the FP player can respond to that wound. Then the Shadow player can play the second YaLaaT, and the FP player can respond to that wound as well.
I usually have to do more than just move slowly. I often will have to flat out tell my opponent to play a card or use an ability against me. Lotr newbies I tell ya!
The fastest player should always get the first action. :hey:
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The way you think it should work is correct, because if you "zoom in" to the scenario to look at what exactly happens, even if it is implied by not playing a card, this is what happens:
Gollum wins skirmish
Shadow player plays YaLaaT, wounding a companion (this action must resolve before the shadow player can take another action)
FP player steps in and plays Intimidate, preventing that wound.
Shadow player plays another YaLaaT, wounding a companion
FP passes, not having another Intimidate in their hand, wound sticks
Shadow player passes, not having another YaLaaT in hand
Companion Gollum was skirmishing now gets their wound(s) for losing the skirmish.
Got it?
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HawkeyeSPF, you are my hero of a thousand foils.
Translating to the Corsair Marauder:
"Gollum wins a skirmish" = "Minion is played"
first YaLaaT = Shadowplay (unless the FP player passes the opportunity)
Intimidate = Unheeded
second YaLaaT = resolving Corsair Marauder
Geez, you guys were making me think response actions had to wait.
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Here is my explanation :uh-huh: (I like this one :uh-huh:)
When you play corsair marauder, you put the card very slowly on the table. On his way, you choose a posession. Marauder is still approaching the table. Now, you discard a posession. Meanwhile, Corsair Marauder reaches the table.
Know it hits the table and it is played.
Shadowplay triggers.
LMAO!!!!!! That's awesome, man! Have a :gp:!
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Except... isn't "When you play this minion" (Marauder) an equivalent trigger to "Each time a minion is played" (Shadowplay)? Step 5 of "playing a card" seems to lump them all together. Serious question to Elrohir.
If so, I assumed the FP player can take the first action... or pass and let the Shadow player take the first action.
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...perhaps we should really ask an ex-decipher agent to resolve that question... ???
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Here is my explanation :uh-huh: (I like this one :uh-huh:)
When you play corsair marauder, you put the card very slowly on the table. On his way, you choose a posession. Marauder is still approaching the table. Now, you discard a posession. Meanwhile, Corsair Marauder reaches the table.
Know it hits the table and it is played.
Shadowplay triggers.
I'll work this one just like the Gollum problem:
SP plays Corsair Marauder:
SP Pays the cost
Card hits the table
SP gets to use the card's "When you play..." text first; spots another corsair and discards a weapon to add 2 tokens
FP gets the first optional action; uses Shadowplay to exert the Marauder
SP either has no response actions to the Marauder being exerted or passes
FP gets next optional action to the exertion; plays Unheeded to wound the Marauder, bringing his vitality to zero and killing him
SP either has no response actions to the Marauder being wounded or passes
FP gets optional action to the wound; has none, passes
SP has no more optional actions to the Marauder having been played; passes
FP has no more optional actions to the Marauder having been played; passes
Corsair Marauder hits discard pile
That all happens in about 1.5 seconds in a tournament folks, because most of it is implied and understood.
In the end, the Marauder does his job. End of story.
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Gotcha. If Corsair Marauder must resolve before Shadowplay anyway... there wasn't even a need to throw dying shenanigans into the mix.
"5. Respond to the playing of The Card (and to losing initiative if necessary). Responses or triggered actions that respond to the playing of The Card happen now. If The Card has game text on it that triggers “When you play...” The Card, it happens now. Other cards may respond to the card being played as well."
Could at some point be clarified to "When you play" takes priority.
GP to HawkeyeSPF, Elrohir, and... leokula, because I feel like it, that crazy guy. :gp:
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Back to the original question, I am convinced now that Relentless Charge would make Rumil, SE an archer that could be wounded by it.
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Sorry to necro this thread, but I was browing old rules questions and I thought I'd chime in.
Shadowplay/Unheeded CAN kill the Corsair Marauder and effectively prevent a possession from being discarded.
The action prodecure goes like this:
Marauder is played
No required actions are triggered by this, so we move on to optional actions
The FP gets the first optional action, using Shadowplay to exert the Marauder
Unheeded responds to the exertion and kills the Marauder.
The Marauder can't discard a possession because he is no longer in play when his text would come into effect. The Shadow player never even gets the opportunity to trigger the Marauder's text.
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Hi everyone!
I have a question. Can i heal a minion with the same card in the shadow phase or its working only companions? For example a I played the witch king at the 8. site and me opposite move to the 9. site, the witch king alive and he has 3 wounds, can i heal him if I have a same witch king in my hand?
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No, that rule only works with allies and companions. If you could do what you describe, it would be listed in the rules.
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Sorry to necro this thread, but I was browing old rules questions and I thought I'd chime in.
Shadowplay/Unheeded CAN kill the Corsair Marauder and effectively prevent a possession from being discarded.
The action prodecure goes like this:
Marauder is played
No required actions are triggered by this, so we move on to optional actions
The FP gets the first optional action, using Shadowplay to exert the Marauder
Unheeded responds to the exertion and kills the Marauder.
The Marauder can't discard a possession because he is no longer in play when his text would come into effect. The Shadow player never even gets the opportunity to trigger the Marauder's text.
Soooo, Corsair Marauder never triggers though even though he was played? Not trying to argue i just wanna learn. The SP still played him, its like casting in MTG, even though you countered you still get the affect. It just doesnt make sense how the SP plays a minion, and can never resolve the "when this minion is played text"... he was played! I dont know.... stupid rules lol
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It's simply a matter of the action procedure. FP always gets the first opportunity to respond to anything that occurs in the game. And since a card's text can only be triggered while it is in play*, it is pretty obvious that the Marauder can't discard a possession if he is killed via Shadowplay and Unheeded.
*Some cards specifically say they can work while not in play, such as Gollum, Plotting Deceiver or Ordnance Grunt. But these are obviously the exceptions to the rule. And some cards, when triggered, continue to have a lasting effect even if they leave play, because their text says it lasts a specific amount of time, such as Riddermark Soldier; if he is killed during the turn he is played, he continues to provide a strength bonus to [Rohan] companions until the regroup phase.
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No, that rule only works with allies and companions. If you could do what you describe, it would be listed in the rules.
Thank you very much.
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I have a question about archery. Let´s say that I have an minion who says that Legolas does not add to the fellowship archery total (low resistance for example). What happens if the good player then uses "double shot", "splander of their banners" or other +1 archery total-cards? Can the good player use this cards for firing, though his archer doesn´t shoot?
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Yes. The archer is still an archer, so he can be spotted as a cost of playing Double Shot and he can use The Splendor of Their Banners.
It of course also works when the archer doesn't add to archery total because of Free Peoples player's actions (for example using ability of Greenleaf).