The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: King89 on July 13, 2009, 01:18:37 PM
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hello everyone!
today we (Temtest and i) had a ruling queation about shadowplay in gccg.
the situation was as following: he had 2 shadowplay. i played ulaire toldea, black shadow to get keening wail from discard pile.
to my mind i play toldea and he as fp player gots the first action -> exert toldea with SP. then as response of playing i can exert toldea to get the event. the second shadowplay doesn't drigger because toldea is already exhausted. temptest has the opinion that he can use both SP at once cause as he said they are "both responses of playing". but i thougth it's the same with toldea, isn't it?
who is rigth?
thank's for helping us!
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Responses alternate, starting with the FP player. He would get the first shot at an action (Shadowplay #1), then you would have your first response action (exert to get the Wraith event from discard pile), then he would get the next response action.
Note though, that these are all responses to the playing of Toldea. If your opponent had had Unheeded in his hand, he could have used that in response to the first (or second) exertion and either prevented you from exerting to get the event, or killing Toldea outright, respectively.
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Cards NEVER activate simultaneously, they always happen in an order.
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thank you two.
Cards NEVER activate simultaneously, they always happen in an order.
i know, i thought that there MIGTH BE a different between both responses... glad to hear that there is no :P
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Wait a sec Hawk, both Black Shadow and Corsair Marauder are worded with "When you play..." Wondering why the Shadow player gets to use Black Shadow first this time.
SP plays Corsair Marauder:
SP Pays the cost
Card hits the table
SP gets to use the card's "When you play..." text first; spots another corsair and discards a weapon to add 2 tokens
FP gets the first optional action; uses Shadowplay to exert the Marauder
SP either has no response actions to the Marauder being exerted or passes
FP gets next optional action to the exertion; plays Unheeded to wound the Marauder, bringing his vitality to zero and killing him
SP either has no response actions to the Marauder being wounded or passes
FP gets optional action to the wound; has none, passes
SP has no more optional actions to the Marauder having been played; passes
FP has no more optional actions to the Marauder having been played; passes
Corsair Marauder hits discard pile
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the difference there, as i understand it in that in the case of the marauder, the FP player would use shadowplay/unheeded or some other method to immediately kill him. even so, the marauder has "entered play" and gets to use his text still.
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ES's question still stands. In the example you have the when you play text of the maruader happening first. This is different than the way you explained toldea. I believe you explained toldea correctly. The marauder "logic" (IMO) would be:
SP pays for Maruader
Marauder enters play
FP orders Manditory trigger off a minion being played triggers (Each time a minion is played, when you play a minion, when you play this minion, etc.) -pass
optional triggers off a minion being played triggers strating with FP
-Shadowplay- exerts marauder
Trigers from a minion exerting-unheeded to wound
trigers from wound- Maruader killed
pass
pass
-*SP uses marauder ability
IMO the SP wouldn't be able to use the marauders ability, since the marauder is no longer in play. My opinion is backed up with the precidence of the Cave Troll with chain ruling that an archery wound killing the cave troll would not allow the chain to trigger. However, I am aware that it was ruled at some point that the marauder could still discard the possesion even though he was dead (yeah Decipher for contridicting rulings)
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Well, basic logic says you played it, you get to use its ability. I may be way off here, but it seems that the only condition for using the Marauder's ability is you playing it, not it remaining in play for a specified length of time.
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The Cave Troll's Chain cannot activate because it is an OPTIONAL action, and cannot be performed until all required actions (placing the wound and dealing with any effects of said wound) have completely resolved.
The Marauder can activate, because both its text and the text of Shadowplay are OPTIONAL actions.
(Comprehensive Rules Document 4.0, Page 7, Section 2: Action)
So, while Decipher may have made some mistakes, these rulings are not among them.
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The Cave Troll's Chain cannot activate because it is an OPTIONAL action, and cannot be performed until all required actions (placing the wound and dealing with any effects of said wound) have completely resolved.
The Marauder can activate, because both its text and the text of Shadowplay are OPTIONAL actions.
(Comprehensive Rules Document 4.0, Page 7, Section 2: Action)
So, while Decipher may have made some mistakes, these rulings are not among them.
Both are optional actions, yes, but there is no stack in LOTR. you take actions (whether required or not) one at a time. The marauder is in the discard pile before you use it's ability because of the required action after being wounded by unheeded. By the time the shadow player has a chance to use the Marauders ability, it is in the discard pile.
"After all such required actions have resolved, players may perform optional actions responding to that same trigger using the action procedure." I assume is the quote you were refering to. This just tells you that all the required action s must occur before the optional ones and what the order in triggered actions occur.
If the FP has a triggered optional action to discard a condition, and the SP has a condition with a triggered optional action (to that same trigger), the FP can use that action to discard that condition before the SP can use it's action. Since the condition is no longer in play the SP cannot use its action.
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BIG difference there - those conditions are TOP LEVEL actions, so of course if it is discarded you cannot use its ability.
"when you play" actions happen regardless of whether or not the character survives long enough to take a top-level action (except in the case of immediate discard (playing Goblin Runner while Watcher in the Water Keeper of Westgate is on the table - CRD4.0 Pg10, discard))(CRD4.0 Pg18, when).
Basically, "when" actions check for the trigger and then have their effect (bowing to the action procedure as a required or optional action, of course).
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"when you play" actions happen regardless of whether or not the character survives long enough to take a top-level action (except in the case of immediate discard (playing Goblin Runner while Watcher in the Water Keeper of Westgate is on the table - CRD4.0 Pg10, discard))(CRD4.0 Pg18, when).
Basically, "when" actions check for the trigger and then have their effect (bowing to the action procedure as a required or optional action, of course).
Where does it state this about "when" actions versus other triggered actions. There is nothing that implies this. Neither of your references say this.
Changing my aforementioned example, it is still true:
If the FP has a "when" triggered optional action to discard a condition, and the SP has a condition with a "when" triggered optional action (to that same trigger), the FP can use that action to discard that condition before the SP can use it's action. Since the condition is no longer in play the SP cannot use its action.
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In theory, I see nothing wrong with your new example - if such a situation happened, that's exactly how I would rule it.
Again, the difference here is that we're talking about a card that is still in the "being played" state - specifically, the "void" (Current Rulings Document 8/13/07 Pg3, void): "When a non-site card is played, it enters the void (not in your hand, not in your discard pile, and not in play) until all of its effects have resolved, and then it’s placed in the appropriate place. Events go to the discard pile and other cards are placed in play."
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In theory, I see nothing wrong with your new example - if such a situation happened, that's exactly how I would rule it.
Again, the difference here is that we're talking about a card that is still in the "being played" state - specifically, the "void" (Current Rulings Document 8/13/07 Pg3, void): "When a non-site card is played, it enters the void (not in your hand, not in your discard pile, and not in play) until all of its effects have resolved, and then it’s placed in the appropriate place. Events go to the discard pile and other cards are placed in play."
From the same CRD "playing a card",
"4. If The Card is not an event, place it in the
appropriate place. If the card you are playing is
a Character, Possession, Artifact, or Condition,
place it on the playing surface. The Card is now
in play.
5. Respond to the playing of The Card (and
to losing initiative if necessary). Responses or
triggered actions that respond to the playing of
The Card happen now. If The Card has game
text on it that triggers “When you play...” The
Card, it happens now. Other cards may respond
to the card being played as well. These are
handled in the manner described under actions
and action procedure. If The Card was a Free
People’s card and it leaving your hand causes you
to lose initiative, each player may respond to you
losing initiative now"
The card enters play before its "when you play" actions happen. Responses happen at the same time. I see no difference between my example and the one with the marauder.
Edit: thanks for arguing with me in a repectible fashion. I'm not trying to be beligerent.
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Edit: thanks for arguing with me in a repectible fashion. I'm not trying to be beligerent.
ditto - I will get back to the argument at hand a little later, it's time to unwind from a "tough" day at work and start prepping dinner. ;)
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I've thought that if game text is triggered, then the text is resolved (via the action procedure) regardless of whether the card is still in play. This would explain how the Marauder can be ordered like Toldea and yet still discard possessions. However it seems that the example with Cave Troll's Chain shoots this down.
So under what conditions, if any, can actions be resolved even if the originating card is no longer in play? How about costs: if Enquea exerts (exhausting himself) and Unheeded responds to kill him, is the wound from Enquea still placed?
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I've thought that if game text is triggered, then the text is resolved (via the action procedure) regardless of whether the card is still in play. This would explain how the Marauder can be ordered like Toldea and yet still discard possessions. However it seems that the example with Cave Troll's Chain shoots this down.
There's some abiguity (or semantics take your pick) in how we've been arguing, but this is my understanding.
A card being "triggered" just means that its condition for use has been met. Manditory actions that are triggered are then performed by the FP. Then, using normal action procedure, optional actions are taken. All of these actions can change the game state, causing other triggers to happen or remove cards with said trigger from play.
For example, say the FP has a card that say "at the start of skirmish, you may discard this card to discard a minon assigned to bearer." and a minion with another "at the start of the skirmish" optional action. The FP can choose to have his action to happen first, and then the action on the minion can't happen because the minion with the action is no longer in play at a time when the SP can use the action.
So under what conditions, if any, can actions be resolved even if the originating card is no longer in play? How about costs: if Enquea exerts (exhausting himself) and Unheeded responds to kill him, is the wound from Enquea still placed?
Yes. Becasue the action was started, you must finish the action. (additionally (and sligtly unrelated) the cost was payed, so the effect happens.)
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What happens is Shagrat, CoCU is wounded and killed, he has lost the skirmish but is he not in play to place the wound?
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It seems that if the LoM example works that the cave troll's would too.
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What happens is Shagrat, CoCU is wounded and killed, he has lost the skirmish but is he not in play to place the wound?
He places the exertion before wounds of loosing skirmishes are placed. Treebeard, Enraged Shepherd exerts minions too, before wounds caused by winning a skirmish are placed.
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For example, say the FP has a card that say "at the start of skirmish, you may discard this card to discard a minon assigned to bearer." and a minion with another "at the start of the skirmish" optional action. The FP can choose to have his action to happen first, and then the action on the minion can't happen because the minion with the action is no longer in play at a time when the SP can use the action.
To clarify this further, are the cards triggering at the same time, but resolved at different times, or actually triggering at different times? See, I've been thinking it was the former, so "action triggered -> action resolved" sounded a lot like "costs paid -> effects resolved."
Anyway, however the details of that are nailed down, that still seems to leave the issue with the Marauder. I would order it the same as Toldea, which means he can be killed before his text resolves--but his text should resolve anyway. I am pretty weirded out.
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What happens if Shagrat, CoCU is killed by LoI or something like that, is what I meant Eowyn would have won the skirmish and Shagrat lost it, but does he not get to place his exertion?
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Before cards are placed in the discard pile (due to being killed in a skirmish), you check for triggers to either winning or losing the skirmish - first mandatory, then optional if any still exist.
Shagrat's text is an optional triggered response to losing a skirmish, so unless something blanks his gametext, he will be able to exert a character before being placed in the discard pile.
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Before cards are placed in the discard pile (due to being killed in a skirmish), you check for triggers to either winning or losing the skirmish - first mandatory, then optional if any still exist.
Shagrat's text is an optional triggered response to losing a skirmish, so unless something blanks his gametext, he will be able to exert a character before being placed in the discard pile.
If he were to be killed by a wound because he lost his skirmish I would agree with you. The determination of winning or losing a skirmish (based off of strength) happens before wounds are assigned.
However, I disagree with this specific example, because Shagrat is removed (killed) from the skirmish before the skirmish is resolved. In this case, (where Eowyn wounds and kills the minions before skirmish resolution) Eowyn would be the winning character, and there would be no losing characters.
Edit: Looking at the comp rule book, I was wrong about the no losing characters.
"Also, any character removed during his or her skirmish is a losing character, even if that character’s side eventually wins. That character is not wounded (or overwhelmed) when the skirmish resolves."
In this case, I would amend my initial post. I still don't think that Shagrat would exert a character, in the same sense that he is dead before his optional triggered action can be taken (similar to the cave troll with chain ruling)
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Seems hard to understand that there would be no losing character. If Gleaming Spires Will Crumble is in play does LoI killing minions not discard it?
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Any character removed during his skirmish is a losing character, even if that side eventually ends up winning. If LoI kills Shagrat with her ability, then Shagrat is a losing character; likewise if she kills your [Sauron] Orc, then GSWC will be discarded.
In the specific case of a character being killed before strength has been totaled, I would think that actions triggered by a character being killed happen before actions triggered by winning/losing the skirmish (otherwise you'd be responding to the effect before the cause). But this also leaves the awkward situation of Shagrat needing to trigger before he hits the discard pile. So does he wait for all the "kill" triggers to resolve first, respond with his "losing" trigger before any "kill" triggers, or something else?
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I think his text would be null and void because he was sent to the discard pile before the skirmish was resolved.
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Seems to me that either I get to exert with Shagrat and lose the GSWC or neither happens. Just doesn't seem like that cave troll's chain ruling is correct.
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How about this:
If an effect has a trigger, its source card must be in play for the effect to resolve.
Exception: If a card has an effect that triggers when it is discarded (or in the case of a character, when he or she is discarded or killed), the effect still resolves, following the action procedure.
Example 1: Cave Troll's Chain. If an exhausted Cave Troll bearing Cave Troll's Chain takes its last wound during the archery phase, the Chain cannot be used to wound an archer companion because the Chain is discarded before its effect would resolve.
Example 2: Corsair Marauder. Same result as above. If the Marauder is killed before his effect resolves, the effect would not resolve.
There seems to be a contradiction in the 8/13/07 CRD between the "playing a card" and "void" entries. The "void" entry says a non-site card remains in the void until all of its effects have resolved, and then it's placed in play (or in the discard pile if it's an event). The "playing a card" entry says a non-event card is placed in play (step 3) before responses to the playing of the card happen (step 4). While the card is in the void, the entry also limits actions to examining the card, meeting requirements, and paying costs (steps 1, 2, and 3, respectively). Since the "playing a card" entry is more detailed that's what I went with.
However, if the Marauder is to work like Decipher intended, then an additional step can be created between steps 3 and 4:
3.1. If The Card has game text on it that triggers "When you play..." The Card, it happens now.
Note that other responses or triggered actions that respond to the playing of The Card still happen in step 4.
Example 3: Shagrat, Captain of Cirith Ungol. Same result as above. If Shagrat is killed during a skirmish before strength has been totaled, his effect would not resolve.
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How about this:
Example 3: Shagrat, Captain of Cirith Ungol. Same result as above. If Shagrat is removed during a skirmish before strength has been totaled, his effect would not resolve.
that makes sense