Shadowplay

[King89]

hello everyone!

today we (Temtest and i) had a ruling queation about shadowplay in gccg.
the situation was as following: he had 2 shadowplay. i played ulaire toldea, black shadow to get keening wail from discard pile.

to my mind i play toldea and he as fp player gots the first action -> exert toldea with SP. then as response of playing i can exert toldea to get the event. the second shadowplay doesn't drigger because toldea is already exhausted. temptest has the opinion that he can use both SP at once cause as he said they are "both responses of playing". but i thougth it's the same with toldea, isn't it?


who is rigth?



thank's for helping us!

[HawkeyeSPF]

Responses alternate, starting with the FP player. He would get the first shot at an action (Shadowplay #1), then you would have your first response action (exert to get the Wraith event from discard pile), then he would get the next response action.

Note though, that these are all responses to the playing of Toldea. If your opponent had had Unheeded in his hand, he could have used that in response to the first (or second) exertion and either prevented you from exerting to get the event, or killing Toldea outright, respectively.

[TheJord]

Cards NEVER activate simultaneously, they always happen in an order.

[King89]

thank you two.

Cards NEVER activate simultaneously, they always happen in an order.

i know, i thought that there MIGTH BE a different between both responses... glad to hear that there is no

[Elessar's Socks]

Wait a sec Hawk, both Black Shadow and Corsair Marauder are worded with "When you play..." Wondering why the Shadow player gets to use Black Shadow first this time.

SP plays Corsair Marauder:
   SP Pays the cost
   Card hits the table
   SP gets to use the card's "When you play..." text first; spots another corsair and discards a weapon to add 2 tokens
   FP gets the first optional action; uses Shadowplay to exert the Marauder
      SP either has no response actions to the Marauder being exerted or passes
      FP gets next optional action to the exertion; plays Unheeded to wound the Marauder, bringing his vitality to zero and killing him
         SP either has no response actions to the Marauder being wounded or passes
         FP gets optional action to the wound; has none, passes
   SP has no more optional actions to the Marauder having been played; passes
   FP has no more optional actions to the Marauder having been played; passes
Corsair Marauder hits discard pile

[HawkeyeSPF]

the difference there, as i understand it in that in the case of the marauder, the FP player would use shadowplay/unheeded or some other method to immediately kill him. even so, the marauder has "entered play" and gets to use his text still.

[Elgar]

ES's question still stands.  In the example you have the when you play text of the maruader happening first.  This is different than the way you explained toldea.  I believe you explained toldea correctly.  The marauder "logic" (IMO) would be:
SP pays for Maruader
Marauder enters play
   FP orders Manditory trigger off a minion being played triggers (Each time a minion is played, when you play a  minion, when you play this minion, etc.) -pass
  optional triggers off a minion being played triggers strating with FP
      -Shadowplay- exerts marauder
          Trigers from a minion exerting-unheeded to wound
                 trigers from wound- Maruader killed  
                 pass
          pass
      -*SP uses marauder ability

IMO the SP wouldn't be able to use the marauders ability, since the marauder is no longer in play.  My opinion is backed up with the precidence of the Cave Troll with chain ruling that an archery wound killing the cave troll would not allow the chain to trigger.  However, I am aware that it was ruled at some point that the marauder could still discard the possesion even though he was dead (yeah Decipher for contridicting rulings)

[SomeRandomDude]

Well, basic logic says you played it, you get to use its ability. I may be way off here, but it seems that the only condition for using the Marauder's ability is you playing it, not it remaining in play for a specified length of time.

[HawkeyeSPF]

The Cave Troll's Chain cannot activate because it is an OPTIONAL action, and cannot be performed until all required actions (placing the wound and dealing with any effects of said wound) have completely resolved.

The Marauder can activate, because both its text and the text of Shadowplay are OPTIONAL actions.
(Comprehensive Rules Document 4.0, Page 7, Section 2: Action)

So, while Decipher may have made some mistakes, these rulings are not among them.

[Elgar]

The Cave Troll's Chain cannot activate because it is an OPTIONAL action, and cannot be performed until all required actions (placing the wound and dealing with any effects of said wound) have completely resolved.

The Marauder can activate, because both its text and the text of Shadowplay are OPTIONAL actions.
(Comprehensive Rules Document 4.0, Page 7, Section 2: Action)

So, while Decipher may have made some mistakes, these rulings are not among them.

Both are optional actions, yes, but there is no stack in LOTR.  you take actions (whether required or not) one at a time.  The marauder is in the discard pile before you use it's ability because of the required action after being wounded by unheeded.  By the time the shadow player has a chance to use the Marauders ability, it is in the discard pile. 

"After all such required actions have resolved, players may perform optional actions responding to that same trigger using the action procedure."  I assume is the quote you were refering to.  This just tells you that all the required action s must occur before the optional ones and what the order in triggered actions occur. 

If the FP has a triggered optional action to discard a condition, and the SP has a condition with a triggered optional action (to that same trigger), the FP can use that action to discard that condition before the SP can use it's action.  Since the condition is no longer in play the SP cannot use its action.

[HawkeyeSPF]

BIG difference there - those conditions are TOP LEVEL actions, so of course if it is discarded you cannot use its ability.

"when you play" actions happen regardless of whether or not the character survives long enough to take a top-level action (except in the case of immediate discard (playing Goblin Runner while Watcher in the Water Keeper of Westgate is on the table - CRD4.0 Pg10, discard))(CRD4.0 Pg18, when).

Basically, "when" actions check for the trigger and then have their effect (bowing to the action procedure as a required or optional action, of course).

[Elgar]

"when you play" actions happen regardless of whether or not the character survives long enough to take a top-level action (except in the case of immediate discard (playing Goblin Runner while Watcher in the Water Keeper of Westgate is on the table - CRD4.0 Pg10, discard))(CRD4.0 Pg18, when).

Basically, "when" actions check for the trigger and then have their effect (bowing to the action procedure as a required or optional action, of course).

Where does it state this about "when" actions versus other triggered actions.  There is nothing that implies this.  Neither of your references say this.

Changing my aforementioned example, it is still true:
If the FP has a "when" triggered optional action to discard a condition, and the SP has a condition with a "when" triggered optional action (to that same trigger), the FP can use that action to discard that condition before the SP can use it's action.  Since the condition is no longer in play the SP cannot use its action.

[HawkeyeSPF]

In theory, I see nothing wrong with your new example - if such a situation happened, that's exactly how I would rule it.

Again, the difference here is that we're talking about a card that is still in the "being played" state - specifically, the "void" (Current Rulings Document 8/13/07 Pg3, void): "When a non-site card is played, it enters the void (not in your hand, not in your discard pile, and not in play) until all of its effects have resolved, and then it's placed in the appropriate place. Events go to the discard pile and other cards are placed in play."

[Elgar]

In theory, I see nothing wrong with your new example - if such a situation happened, that's exactly how I would rule it.

Again, the difference here is that we're talking about a card that is still in the "being played" state - specifically, the "void" (Current Rulings Document 8/13/07 Pg3, void): "When a non-site card is played, it enters the void (not in your hand, not in your discard pile, and not in play) until all of its effects have resolved, and then it's placed in the appropriate place. Events go to the discard pile and other cards are placed in play."

From the same CRD "playing a card",
"4. If The Card is not an event, place it in the
appropriate place. If the card you are playing is
a Character, Possession, Artifact, or Condition,
place it on the playing surface. The Card is now
in play.
5. Respond to the playing of The Card (and
to losing initiative if necessary). Responses or
triggered actions that respond to the playing of
The Card happen now. If The Card has game
text on it that triggers "When you play..." The
Card, it happens now. Other cards may respond
to the card being played as well. These are
handled in the manner described under actions
and action procedure. If The Card was a Free
People's card and it leaving your hand causes you
to lose initiative, each player may respond to you
losing initiative now"

The card enters play before its "when you play" actions happen.  Responses happen at the same time.  I see no difference between my example and the one with the marauder.

Edit: thanks for arguing with me in a repectible fashion.  I'm not trying to be beligerent.

[HawkeyeSPF]

Edit: thanks for arguing with me in a repectible fashion.  I'm not trying to be beligerent.

ditto - I will get back to the argument at hand a little later, it's time to unwind from a "tough" day at work and start prepping dinner.