The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: jdizzy001 on January 02, 2010, 01:29:46 PM
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Let's say I play That's Two. The text says the shadow player must discard a shadow card from play during the regroup phase. If the shadow player chooses to discard a gollum condition and has deceit in play, can he protect his condition with deceit? I think no, because deceit says you may only prevent the discarding if the freeps card specifically discards a condition. That's 2 does not discard a condtion, but any shadow card.
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i think you are correct
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The question is the source of the discard.
That's Two is the source of the discard, despite its text, which allows the Shadow player to decide what to discard.
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That's Two isn't doing the discarding though.
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But it is. The Shadow player is only discarding because That's Two is making them. Therefore it is the source of the discard.
If it isnt the source, what is?
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I don't think it matters what the source is. Deceit specifically says "If a Free Peoples player's card is about to discard your other [GOLLUM] condition..." and That's Two isn't discarding the condition(s).
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I think it look at it this way: That's Two is what is discarding the condition, even if the shadow player is choosing.
That's two is a terrible card. Maybe if it was manuever...
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I made good use of it in a multiplayer draft once.
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That's two is a great card in multi-player. I wouldn't use it in any other game other than a multi-player game. I think this same scenario came up pertaining to old noakes 3C111 the following was determined, Notes: If a Shadow card gives you the choice of discarding a card from hand or taking a different action, that card does not activate Old Noakes' game text. I say this same thing applies to the text of that's two. Since the text of that's two gives you a choice of actions, deceit's text is not activated.
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I dont see how these two exampls relate. Old Noakes doesnt respond to a situation where you choose to discard instead of something else, such as DDotR, as his text says "Each time a Shadow card makes you discard..."
Deceit simply states, if a FP card is about to discard a condition, do X... That's Two is responsible for the discard, however you word it.
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"...to have each Shadow player discard one of his or her Shadow cards from play."
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Exactly, why is the Shadow player discarding? Because That's Two is making them!
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Exactly, why is the Shadow player discarding? Because That's Two is making them!
Yeah. And that prevents Deceit from using its ability.
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The question is the source of the discard.
That's Two is the source of the discard, despite its text, which allows the Shadow player to decide what to discard.
I am almost certain this is correct. Deceit will work in this case. There is a classic example of this, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is!
Thranduil
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To use a different example, I've thought Melilot Brandybuck could exert to prevent the burden from Desperate Defense of the Ring.
The CR entry for Frodo CH also says "This card only prevents Shadow cards that make you discard from hand or draw deck." The Free Peoples player is doing the (forced) discarding, a Shadow card is the source of this, and Frodo CH ("Shadow cards may not discard...") works. Flip it around, and we get the That's Two! / Deceit situation here.
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I'm fairly positive that Frodo CH does not affect DDotR. They have to complete one or the other (sort of like the Boromir BoC and Armor dilemma).
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Kralik is right about Frodo, Courteous Halfling. The Free Peoples player chooses to discard or add a burden.
-wtk
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Right, though DDotR does not apply to the line I mentioned ("...that make you discard..."), because the discard there is offered as a choice. Just looking here at the wording for what Frodo CH does work against, which I think further supports that the source of the effect (the Shadow card) is what's important here.
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Going back to the question though, I believe as well that Deceit can't be used. That's Two is targetting the shadow player, not a condition, it isn't discarding anything it is forcing the shadow player to take an action.
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Going back to the question though, I believe as well that Deceit can't be used. That's Two is targetting the shadow player, not a condition, it isn't discarding anything it is forcing the shadow player to take an action.
That's Two isn't targetting anything. The fact is the condition getting discarded is due to That's Two. Therefore it is a "Free Peoples player's card". Therefore it can be saved by Deceit. This I am 100% certain is the case.
Thranduil
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My word likely doesn't mean much, but I'll jump in and put my opinion on the side of "Deceit CAN be used."
I mean, That's Two is the source of the discard -- the rulebook specifically says that the source of an effect is the card on which that effect is printed. So, in this case, a Free Peoples card is discarding a Gollum condition.
I don't get what the problem is. =P
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deceit shouldnt trigger from that's two (neither brc ) . That's two makes the shadow player discard a card . If the shadow player choses that card to be a gollum condition then the fp card is not responsible for the condition discarding but the choice of the shadow player is.
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deceit shouldnt trigger from that's two (neither brc ) . That's two makes the shadow player discard a card . If the shadow player choses that card to be a gollum condition then the fp card is not responsible for the condition discarding but the choice of the shadow player is.
Well it really does - Alazzar is right.
This is a direct quote from the comprehensive rulebook:
The source of an effect is the card on which that effect is printed. Even though a card like an event may require a minion to exert to pay its cost, the source of that effect is the event card and not the minion.
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Then why does the text of noakes negate if the fp is given a choice? I don't understand the difference between noakes and that's two
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Might help to compare Old Noakes with Melilot Brandybuck and Sam, Samwise the Brave.
DDotR hits. If you choose to discard, you don't get to use Old Noakes because the discard was offered as a choice. The source is still a Shadow card, but it did not "make" you discard.
However, you do get to use Melilot (if you go with the burden) because all Melilot cares about is the source. A burden is about to be added by a Shadow card (whether it's DDotR giving you this choice or IWtBF making you do it), and that's good enough for her.
Deceit, like Melilot, also only considers the souce.
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The keywords here are "makes you" ie. if you did not have a choice to do otherwise. You'll notice that there are no other similar effects with those precise words (I'm pretty sure) which is why Melilot Brandybuck and Samwise the Brave work fine.
I think it's actually a bit of a stupid ruling, but nevertheless it is only those two words that makes the cases different.
Thranduil
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Sorry guys, but I still am not buying it. That's two! says Spot Gimli and exert a fellowship companion to have each Shadow player discard one of his or her Shadow cards from play. It doesn't insinuate a condition and from my pov negates deceit which reads If a Free Peoples player's card is about to discard your other [GOLLUM] condition, remove (1) to prevent that. I'm not trying to be a pest, I just really don't understand.
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The effect is discarding a condition...right?
Quote
The source of an effect is the card on which that effect is printed. Even though a card like an event may require a minion to exert to pay its cost, the source of that effect is the event card and not the minion.
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I think everyone pretty much agrees with TheJord... Deceit can be used. That's Two! is doing the discarding, even though it is giving the Shadow Player a choice about what to discard. It is not going to be discarded otherwise. I only see this type of situation as questionable when it goes something like this: That's Two! is played, and the cost payed. The Shadow player chooses to discard a card that causes a condition to also be discarded when the orignal card leaves play. Is Deceit usable? I'd say no, but it's on the same vague level, just leaning the other way (that deceit can't be used).
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The only time you could circumvent Deceit is to use Heights of Isengard, as its the site doing the discarding, which isnt a Free Peoples card.
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the source of the effect in the card says : discard card(s) (and not condition) . the card that will be discarded is a condition only if the shadow player chooses so.
If there is a minion,a shadow condition,a shadow possession,a shadow artifact,a shadow follower on the table and the shadow player targets the shadow condition in order to be saved by deceit it seems to me like manipulating the rules or the game.
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But that happens all the time. Imagine having a Desert Sneak and 20 other non-[Raider] minions. If you play High Vantage, you can assign infinite arrows during the archery phase to prevent all wounds to your other minions.
-wtk
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Or Berserk Butcher.
I'd have to agree with the rulebook, since it says the source is the Freeps card. Think also of Brooding on Tomorrow... even if the Shadow players chooses a [Gollum] condition and prevents it with Deceit, is there any doubt that the forced discard is a result of the [Gandalf] card? Just because That's Two doesn't specifically state "condition" doesn't change the issue. [Dwarven] (a Free Peoples card) is making you discard.
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But that happens all the time. Imagine having a Desert Sneak and 20 other non-[Raider] minions. If you play High Vantage, you can assign infinite arrows during the archery phase to prevent all wounds to your other minions.
-wtk
i am 99% sure that this can be done since it reminds me the classic trick with gimli's helm and threats.
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The example I used is a real, legal example.
-wtk
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But then why can't old noakes text be used when given a choice? Disregarding that's two, i think I understand that now, but that then (in my mind) would mean you could use old noakes when given a choice right?
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Old Noakes says "makes you", where as DDotR gives you the choice. Orc Inquisitor or Tower of Barad-dur doesnt so he works against them.
I think it was to ensure some balance, as I would always discard if I knew I could toss a minion for it.
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And since it's discard "a" card from hand, you could whack out three [Sauron] minions that way! :P