The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: MuadDib85 on March 06, 2010, 07:33:49 PM
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Legolas, Greenleaf vs Ulaire Enquea, Thrall of The One
Can you exert Legolas with his text for no effect to prevent Enquea from taking any wounds in the archery phase?
Is there anything in the rules about having to perform as much of an action as possible? (I think I remember something along those lines..)
EDIT: Assuming Legolas is the only archer in play is what I mean by preventing Enquea taking wounds.
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Yes, you do have to perform as much of the action as possible. So if ToTo is the only minion, you have to wound him (there's really no point to using Greenleaf's text when there's only one minion, unless you just want to exert Legolas for no reason).
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(there's really no point to using Greenleaf's text when there's only one minion, unless you just want to exert Legolas for no reason).
The reason would be to prevent Enquea from adding burdens.
Or prevent enduring minions from getting stronger.
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I understand why you would want do it to no effect, but as it is, when there's only one minion, you must wound the lone minion, who would take the archery wound anyway, so there's no benefit (except that the minion gets wounded during archery actions instead of from the archery total, in the rare cases where that matters, e.g. Anduin River).
You have to wound a minion if possible, and if the only minion who can take archery wounds is ToTo, that's the minion you have to wound. It's a clever idea, but it won't work.
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Two people on gccg think that you can exert Legolas for no effect preventing an archery wound from him because his text says he does not add to the fellowsip archery total if you exert him.
Just exert him for no effect. No wound on Enquea. No burden from Enquea's text. That's how it was being used.
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I understand the point you raised, MD. I'll be honest that this is one of those that I really don't know.
I would suggest that you cannot exert him.
The basis I use for this argument is the card Foes of Mordor appearing in [Gondor] Wraith decks. That is legal to exert the [Gondor] Wraiths, even if there is no eligible [Sauron] minion in play; however, if a [Sauron] minion is in play, you have to wound that minion.
With no [Sauron] minion, you are exerting and then carrying out as much of the result as you can. With Greenleaf, in the same manner, you must carry out as much as you can. I.e., wound a minion.
-wtk
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Who were the two people on GCCG who said you can wound for no result? If they were someone off of the short list of people who I will accept rule corrections from without looking them up...then I would just side with them!
-wtk
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They are wrong. The "no effect" thing is truly only plausible when you do as much as possible. For example, you may use Narya and add [3] for no effect if you have no burdens, but you cannot add [3] and then decide not to remove a burden.
As far as "as much as possible" goes, remember the example of Secret Sentinels:
If you can spot an Orc and only one Shadow condition, you must discard a Free Peoples condition if there is one.
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And...I am going to side with Kralik.
/me must serve the massster.
-wtk
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From the Comprehensive Rulebook under effect (emphasis mine):
If the effect of a card or special ability requires
you to perform an action and you cannot, you
must perform as much as you can and ignore the
rest. (See limit.)
...
If the effect of a card or special ability requires
you to choose one of two different actions, you
must choose an action that you are fully capable
of performing (if possible).
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Incidentally, the second entry there would seem to indicate that you couldn't use Greenleaf to shoot an Easterling bearing a loaded Easterling Polearm (not that you'd want to, but illegal nonetheless). Or... using Hate to wound an exhausted [Gondor] Wraith with Swept Away. Am I reading that correctly? :suspect:
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Incidentally, the second entry there would seem to indicate that you couldn't use Greenleaf to shoot an Easterling bearing a loaded Easterling Polearm (not that you'd want to, but illegal nonetheless). Or... using Hate to wound an exhausted [Gondor] Wraith with Swept Away. Am I reading that correctly? :suspect:
Your set-up may be a little flawed. If the Free People's player has Greenleaf and the opponent has an Easterling bearing an Easterling Polearm, I don't see why they could not shoot for nothing. If that same opponent had an Easterling bearing an Easterling Polearm and a second minion, you would have to direct wound the character capable of taking a wound.
On other set-up, if the free People's player has a ring-bearer, an exhausted Wraith, the initiative, and Swept Away, then you could use Hate for no effect. But if the free people's player had the same set-up as before and a non-exhausted Wraith (or any other character except the Ring-Bearer), then Hate would have to target one of those eligible companions.
-wtk
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I agree with ket.
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(https://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstshowing.net%2Fimg%2Fharvey-dent-believe-350w.jpg&hash=2aaae95ee5a82d81509a296b79e899ae477e715c)
-wtk
Edit: It doesn't mean I like the movie. Check out my rant here (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,3650.0.html) if you are not offended by adult language and material.
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remember the example of Secret Sentinels:
If you can spot an Orc and only one Shadow condition, you must discard a Free Peoples condition if there is one.
SAY WHAT! You have to dump a freeps condition! I thought the "or" in the text implied options.
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remember the example of Secret Sentinels:
If you can spot an Orc and only one Shadow condition, you must discard a Free Peoples condition if there is one.
SAY WHAT! You have to dump a freeps condition! I thought the "or" in the text implied options.
But the conditions for the "or" are not optional - if you spot an Orc, you have to do that part of the text (similar for say Their Halls of Stone; if you're at an underground site, you can't choose to add +2 strength).
We've had this issue about preventing wounds versus the inability to take wounds. I think we can certainly see that if the Polearm said "Each time bearer is about to take a wound, prevent that wound" that you could use Greenleaf for no effect - you try to perform as much of the effect as possible, and then you simply fail.
However, I am not certain this is the case for "cannot take wounds". It maybe that Kralik is right, that you can't even try to wound a minion bearing the Polearm. Anyone remember our earlier discussion on this? Any conclusions?
Thranduil
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Incidentally, the second entry there would seem to indicate that you couldn't use Greenleaf to shoot an Easterling bearing a loaded Easterling Polearm (not that you'd want to, but illegal nonetheless). Or... using Hate to wound an exhausted [Gondor] Wraith with Swept Away. Am I reading that correctly? :suspect:
As I've understood it, the second entry refers to a choice provided in the game text of a card, as in DDotR. But you still couldn't attempt to wound said Easterling with Greenleaf because a character that "cannot take wounds" cannot have wounds assigned to him. If there are no viable targets, then the wounding part of his effect can't be completed.
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all this "pay the cost for no effect" is just stupid for me..
but if you look at it this way, Lego i going trough the forest, and he decides to shoot his arrow in to the tin air, or he decides to miss TOTO :)
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ket explained it the way I was thinking... but I should have clarified by giving multiple minions/companions in the examples. It seems to me that under the second snippet, which character to wound is a "choice"... therefore, you must choose a character capable of being wounded if possible.
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In short:
If there's just ToTo, using Greenleaf's ability requires you to wound ToTo.
If there's a polearmed Easterling and ToTo, using Greenleaf's ability requires you to wound ToTo (because you can't choose !the Easterling).
If there's just the polearmed Easterling, you can use Greenleaf's ability to wound nobody.
In order for Greenleaf's ability to save you from ToTo, there has to be a minion other than ToTo who can take wounds in the archery phase, so that Greenleaf can target that minion instead.
Note that all these enduring minions were probably why they made cards like A Grey Ship.
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If there's just the polearmed Easterling, you can use Greenleaf's ability to wound nobody.
Now I believe this is the point of contention. I'm not sure you can even use Greenleaf's ability at all. I may be thinking in MTG terms again, but I'd like some more opinions on this.
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High Vantage, a Southron, and 1000 other minions.
Even if the archery total is 100,000, you can "assign" all of them to the Southron that cannot be wounded.
Berserk Butcher, Broad-Bladed Sword, etc.
-wtk
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ket, you are confusing High Vantage / Berserk Butcher with cards like Broad-Bladed Sword / Easterling Polearm. There is a difference between "prevent" and "cannot"/"may not."
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High Vantage, a Southron, and 1000 other minions.
Even if the archery total is 100,000, you can "assign" all of them to the Southron that cannot be wounded.
Berserk Butcher, Broad-Bladed Sword, etc.
-wtk
Indeed we discussed this on another thread (http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,1494.0.html) a while back.
So where does this fit in in our Greenleaf example?
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Sam has it right:
If there's just the polearmed Easterling, you can use Greenleaf's ability to wound nobody.
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Ah, Kralik, right. I am posting from my phone and completely forgot the actual texts. Guess I wasn't much help!
-wtk
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Now here's a question...
Can you use Citadel to Gate to heal a culture that is not there?
I use this card in my Gandy/Wraiths deck. Usually I heal the [Gondor] Wraiths, but sometimes I want them exhausted. In the latter case, "I heal the... erm... [Rohan]... culture." Valid?
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Can you use Citadel to Gate to heal a culture that is not there?
I use this card in my Gandy/Wraiths deck. Usually I heal the [Gondor] Wraiths, but sometimes I want them exhausted. In the latter case, "I heal the... erm... [Rohan]... culture." Valid?
I think that sounds like fair game. Of course, you could just run Frodo and you wouldn't run into this problem, but I understand that Isildur is far more helpful.
-wtk
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However, to play devil's advocate, the text of the card says you have to heal all companions of a single culture. Can i discard Athelas to heal a wounded companion that is not there?
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Can i discard Athelas to heal a wounded companion that is not there?
yes, as long as you play the cost, and the cost is "discard this possession"
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However, to play devil's advocate, the text of the card says you have to heal all companions of a single culture. Can i discard Athelas to heal a wounded companion that is not there?
No. Once you've discarded it, you must perform as much of the text as possible. If there is a wounded companion or a Shadow condition borne by a companion, you MUST do one of those things.
Citadel to Gate is different. You choose a culture which is not there, and then you perform as much of the effect as possible, which happens to be nothing.
Similarly, if a card said "Discard this card to heal Gandalf" and Gandalf was not on the table, you can of course discard it for no effect. But if Gandalf is on the table, you HAVE to heal him.
Thranduil
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but you can discard athelas if there are no wounded companions
Citadel to Gate is special in the fact that it does not say "choose a free peoples culture you can spot" if it did then it would no work the way kralik uses it.
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but you can discard athelas if there are no wounded companions
Citadel to Gate is special in the fact that it does not say "choose a free peoples culture you can spot" if it did then it would no work the way kralik uses it.
I'm not sure this distinction works, since Athelas doesn't say "choose a wounded companion you can spot" nor does Citadel to Gate say "choose a free peoples culture." Indeed, if Citadel to Gate said "heal a companion of a Free Peoples culture (except [gandalf])," we could probably agree that it worked the same way as Athelas, that is, you could only heal a companion who was actually there.
The possible loophole with Citadel to Gate is that arguably, healing all 0 [rohan] companions fully performs its effect of "heal all companions of one culture" (by that logic, you could even choose to heal all [sauron] companions). In other words, if I have 0 [rohan] companions, and I heal 0 [rohan] companions, have I successfully performed the effect of healing all [rohan] companions? Technically, it seems to work, but it just seems weird to have "successfully performed an action" when you haven't actually done anything. Then again, Elessar's Edict lets you successfully meet its cost by exhausting a [gondor] wraith who is already exhausted, but at least there you have to spot an exhausted [gondor] wraith. I'm leaning towards it working, but it is difficult.
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Then again, Elessar's Edict lets you successfully meet its cost by exhausting a [gondor] wraith who is already exhausted, but at least there you have to spot an exhausted [gondor] wraith. I'm leaning towards it working, but it is difficult.
Paraphrasing from the CRD, you can exhaust an exhausted character infinite times.
Athelas is a different example. If there is a companion with a wound, or bearing a Shadow condition, you must do one of those things--fulfilling the most possible game text.
With Citadel to Gate, you can fulfill all of the game text by choosing to heal companions of one culture, even if that culture is not in play.
-wtk
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Personally I find where targeting ends and "perform as much as you can" begins to be confusing at times. For example, compare One of You Must Do This to Hard Choice. With OoYMDT, the FP player must choose companions who can exert as opposed to burning the effect on exhausted companions. Performing as much as you can here requires choosing targets who can exert.
For Hard Choice, it was argued in an earlier thread that the FP player is able to choose a companion who cannot heal as its target (e.g. a companion with Black Breath). So it seems the order here is to choose a target (I think understood to be a companion who has the Aragorn signet), and then perform as much as you can. Though on my end, I'm not sure why the case would be different here, if going by OoYMDT.
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I still think that you need to spot someone who can be healed with Hard Choice unless there is no spot-table Aragorn signet character who can be healed. In short, if you have three characters with the Aragorn signet, and two of them have Black Breath, then you have to pick the one who does not have Black Breath. But if there are two Gorn signet companions and both have Black Breath, you can fizzle Hard Choice.
Anyways, I would like to direct wound this topic until it dies during the Archery phase.
-wtk