The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => Valinor => Topic started by: sgtdraino on November 30, 2012, 12:40:55 PM
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Had an idea, figured I'd toss it out for consideration:
A buddy of mine who plays on Gemp makes it his personal policy, whenever he encounters a player using the truly broken Gamling/Horn combo to play 25+ followers on turn one, to go ahead and leave the game without conceding (i.e. "rage quit"), so that the player will be forced to sit for ten minutes doing nothing if they want to win using that strategy. Since that is a truly and undeniably broken strategy, I don't really have a problem with that.
I was wondering if the creators and maintainers of Gemp might be interested in officially sanctioning such "rage quits" when certain specifically identified broken strategies are used, to thus discourage their use and make it clear that such conduct is frowned upon, and "rage quitting" under such conditions would carry no negative consequences for the person quitting.
On the plus side, it's not changing the rules of the game. If people want to play with (and against) such strategies, they can feel free to do so. It simply sets a tone regarding behavior commonly regarded as creating a negative player experience. It lets the player base know that quitting under such circumstances doesn't make someone a bad player, and that playing with broken strategies is poor sportsmanship.
Naturally, "rage quits" would only be sanctioned when they are done under conditions specifically approved by the creators and maintainers of Gemp.
Honestly, right now I can't think of anything else I would put on that list other than the Gamling/Horn combo, but I'm sure you guys have a few things in mind.
Thoughts?
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Madril DoO/IB? (Expaned obv.)
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Hey Arcanite!
Madril, lol. ;) IMO Madril isn't broken, because his effect can be negated by a single card that needs no culture enforcement (Ships of Great Draught), and of course there are other things that work against him and Ithilien Blade too, such as Greed, Hate, Final Strike, possession discarding, etc.
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I am vehemently against ANY form of ragequitting. With such behaviour you force your format upon other players, who play a perfectly legitimite strategy. How can that player know you dont like horn, you didnt tell beforehand. Its just poor sportmanship leaving a player waiting and IMHo should be penaltized. If you dont wanna play horn, make it known beforehand or just dont play expanded.
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You aren't seriously trying to argue that the Gamling, Defender of the Hornburg, Erkenbrand's Horn, New Chapter combo is a legitimate strategy are you? What do you mean how can a player know that you don't like that combo? Who the heck actually *likes* to play against that?
If you ask me, the person who plays that strategy should be the one to warn players that this is what they are using. Because if ANYTHING is broken in lotr, that definitely qualifies.
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Madril DoO is more broken, because it's harder to knock out. Ships of Great Draught does work, but that's an off color splash that's useless against all other decks. A good Ithilien Blade deck should counter everything else. Sapling of the White Tree beats Hate, and Madril decks should be running multiples. Against Greed, there's Deep in Thought with Gandalf (who also creates threats) or just running five companions if you smell Uruks. And Uruks are not a top Shadow in Expanded.
The worst card in Madril/IB is not Ithilien Blade - it's What are They? That card eliminates Enquea, Gollum, Mouth of Sauron, and everything else.
Possession discard works just as well against Gamling - just remove the key Horns and things get messy. Madril has 4 Ithilien Blades instead of 2 Horns to remove. Gamling is also vulnerable to Cavern Entrance. Against Horn, my archery deck can mulligan if needed to Rapid Reload 75% of the time and exhaust everybody at site 2. Or I can play Wargs and exert enough times to kill somebody.
I don't like Erkenbrand's Horn, but it's more beatable than Madril, SoO. And one should never ragequit by waiting. If you don't want to play a deck, concede immediately and move on. Don't waste an opponent's time.
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Rage quitting is lame. No excuse for it
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I say if you play a broken format where Madril DoO, Horn or other terrible strategies are rampant, you deserve what you get.
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Ships of Great Draught does work, but that's an off color splash that's useless against all other decks.
The fact is, if Madril really were broken, then most decks would be tossing in a SoGD or two in order to counter him. It requires very little investment to counter. Most people are not doing that, therefore most people clearly don't view Madril as a serious threat.
Possession discard works just as well against Gamling - just remove the key Horns and things get messy.
If they're doing it "right," you have no chance to do that. All followers come out at site 1.
Madril has 4 Ithilien Blades instead of 2 Horns to remove.
There is only one thing to "remove," and that is Madril, which Ships of Great Draught does very effectively.
Gamling is also vulnerable to Cavern Entrance.
The 25+ followers aren't.
Against Horn, my archery deck can mulligan if needed to Rapid Reload 75% of the time and exhaust everybody at site 2.
If they're doing it "right," you won't be playing your site 2, or any other site. Exhaust everybody at site 2? Maybe! But so long as he survives, that's the last twilight you'll ever see, and your Rapid Reload is going to get mothed.
Or I can play Wargs and exert enough times to kill somebody.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Besides, the real issue with the Gamling/Horn combo isn't the strength of its free people's side, it's the fact that it filters virtually all the free people's cards out of the deck, and leaves your opponent with pure minions to play on you. A Gamling/Horn deck isn't trying to beat you to the end, it is simply going to kill you with its shadow.
I don't like Erkenbrand's Horn, but it's more beatable than Madril, SoO.
Nonsense.
And one should never ragequit by waiting. If you don't want to play a deck, concede immediately and move on. Don't waste an opponent's time.
I've never rage quit yet, but IMO Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is a blight on the playing environment, and anyone using that strategy deserves any aggravation they get because of it. After all, if they're going to make me wait 10 minutes while they play out half their deck in turn one, then they shouldn't be too surprised if some opponent makes them wait ten minutes in order to get a cheap win.
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But unless you're playing in a league, there's no penalty for you yourself conceding if your opponent just leaves.
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You aren't seriously trying to argue that the Gamling, Defender of the Hornburg, Erkenbrand's Horn, New Chapter combo is a legitimate strategy are you? What do you mean how can a player know that you don't like that combo? Who the heck actually *likes* to play against that?
If you ask me, the person who plays that strategy should be the one to warn players that this is what they are using. Because if ANYTHING is broken in lotr, that definitely qualifies.
The rules permit the use of horn decks, so why shouldnt it be legitimate. That people play it is their choice, not yours. You are forcing people to not play a deck they want to play. If people want to play it, let them play it. I find ragequitting much more childish than playing Horn. Its like a small child not getting his favourite food then crying upstairs in their bedroom.
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Agreed. Horn may not be fun to play against, but it is legal to use. I hate site path manipulation, and it is very frustrating to encounter Courtyard Parapet or Doorway to Doom or Steward's Tomb several times a game, but it is still legal for that sort of thing to occur in the formats that allow it. Don't like it? Then don't play that format.
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But unless you're playing in a league, there's no penalty for you yourself conceding if your opponent just leaves.
Really? You sure about that? So, you're saying if my opponent leaves the room for any reason, for any amount of time, and I concede, that's not logged as a loss? And my opponent doesn't get a win?
If that's really the case, then honestly I don't see why "rage quitting" is even an issue. Who cares then? It eats up no more time that a regular concession would.
The rules permit the use of horn decks, so why shouldnt it be legitimate.
Technically, the rules also allow "rage quitting." This isn't about what's legal, this is about sportsmanship.
That people play it is their choice, not yours.
And it's their opponents' choice whether or not to "rage quit" when they encounter that.
You are forcing people to not play a deck they want to play. If people want to play it, let them play it.
And if the people who play against it want to "rage quit," I say let them "rage quit." :) Especially if the Horn player can then concede with no penalty to themselves, and not have to wait the ten minutes.
I find ragequitting much more childish than playing Horn.
They're both childish. That's the point: Childishness begets childishness, an eye for an eye.
Here's an idea for you, if you don't like the notion of forcing people to play (or not play) something they don't like: How about if people encountering a Gamling/Horn deck first request a mutual cancel with the opponent. If the opponent agrees, then the game is canceled with no penalty to anyone. If the opponent refuses, then "rage quit" and (according to Bib) the Horn player can concede with no penalty and no wait time.
Agreed. Horn may not be fun to play against, but it is legal to use.
Again, this is not about what's legal or illegal. Bib, would you really argue that using the Gamling/Horn/New Chapter combo doesn't constitute bad sportsmanship? Simply for its filtering qualities, if nothing else?
I hate site path manipulation, and it is very frustrating to encounter Courtyard Parapet or Doorway to Doom or Steward's Tomb several times a game, but it is still legal for that sort of thing to occur in the formats that allow it.
I hate it too, but I still see that as borderline compared to the truly broken Gamling/Horn/New Chapter combo.
Don't like it? Then don't play that format.
Why quit the whole format, when you can simply quit opponents using that strategy? There's still plenty of good fun to be had with many other players.
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"Really? You sure about that? So, you're saying if my opponent leaves the room for any reason, for any amount of time, and I concede, that's not logged as a loss? And my opponent doesn't get a win?"
If you're not in a league game, wins and losses don't matter. At all. Casual games are just that: casual. You play solely for fun. If you're not having fun with what your opponent is using, play a format that doesn't allow the cards you don't like.
Using Horn is not poor sportsmanship. Complaining about Horn is.
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If you're not in a league game, wins and losses don't matter. At all.
That depends on whether you care about your stats, doesn't it? As far as I know, Gemp tracks all that stuff.
Casual games are just that: casual. You play solely for fun.
No more or less than league games. It's all virtual, so the bottom line of ALL of it, is that we play for fun. Certain things detract from that fun.
If you're not having fun with what your opponent is using, play a format that doesn't allow the cards you don't like.
Uhm... NO. :) Who says it's all or nothing? Such absolutism is pointless. I will take the parts I like, and ditch the rest.
Using Horn is not poor sportsmanship. Complaining about Horn is.
Well, you and I will just have to disagree on that. :)
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I find it serious poor sportmanship to ragequit. Also, its a thin line in ragequitting for other decks. Maybe I dont like your ents and find it a HUGE NPE, why shouldnt I ragequit. You create a HUGE precedent when allowing a ragequit.
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Let's be clear:
Ragequitting and making your opponent wait 10 minutes = not OK
Conceding, no matter what the reason = OK
Knowingly playing in a format where you know broken combos are likely and then complaining when they're used against you = not OK
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I find it serious poor sportmanship to ragequit.
99% of the time, I do too.
Also, its a thin line in ragequitting for other decks.
No it's not. No other "strategy" comes anywhere CLOSE to the ridiculousness of Gamling/Horn/New Chapter.
Maybe I dont like your ents and find it a HUGE NPE, why shouldnt I ragequit.
Presumeably because the creators and maintainers of Gemp wouldn't approve ragequitting for those Ents, because they're not truly broken like Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is. That's precisely why I suggest a list of officially frowned-upon strategies be developed.
You create a HUGE precedent when allowing a ragequit.
Nonsense. If the only approved ragequit turns out to be Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, then it is made quite clear that ragequitting against other deck types is verboten. This allows Gemp to express its disapproval of certain strategies without the need to change the rules or errata cards, while simultaneously allowing players to continue playing against such strategies if they want to, if any such players actually exist.
Let's be clear:
Ragequitting and making your opponent wait 10 minutes = not OK
Again, 99% of the time, I agree. And I myself have never ragequit a game. However, I think there should be negative consequences for players who persist in using strategies that are blatantly unfair. And you saying, "well, people should just stop playing Expanded" is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's not helpful, and it's just your opinion.
Conceding, no matter what the reason = OK
It may be okay for you, but some of us care about our stats, and don't like them getting skewed unfairly.
And if conceding, no matter what reason = OK, then this is a nonissue. The Gamling/Horn/New Chapter player can simply concede immediately after the ragequit, not have to wait 10 minutes, and everything will be "OK."
Knowingly playing in a format where you know broken combos are likely and then complaining when they're used against you = not OK
<shrug> Your view is overly simplistic. The game, like life, is imperfect. Unfairness is going to happen to all of us, and it is better to address that unfairness, than to keep quiet, be a doormat, or stop playing. Life isn't fair, but you're not going to quit life are you?
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Rage-quitting is not fair for any reason. If you don't like to play against specific deck. Just excuse yourself politely ("Sorry, I don't enjoy playing against Horn decks") from the game and concede. Lets all behave like adults.
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Since Horn is legal in Expanded, you cannot penalize people for using it in Expanded. Period. You can request that your opponent not use Horn if you want, but that's about all you can do. Same thing with LR in Movie Block. She is technically legal, so if you don't want to play against her, ask that your opponent not use her.
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Well, rage quiting is impolite, and a really jerky move. I think Gemp could have a functionality allowing people to add a small description to the games they create while waiting for opponents - outside of leagues, of course - (like "No Horn" and stuff), and that'd be about it. If a player comes into the table with a horn deck, you politely tell them you specified "No Horn", and they'll leave. If they don't, THEN I think it IS perfectly ok to just leave and let them hang there, it is written in the game's description you don't want to play against that, after all, that guy is the jerk this time (assuming you tell them their mistake and they still won't leave).
Any other way, I stand by what I said, it's NOT ok to make a person sit there for 10 minutes.
Sorry to say, but your friend comes across like a whinning #$&*@! when he does that, I'm not sure I'd want to play HIM, don't matter which deck he uses. And I think he should get a temporary ban for rage quitting matches, like any other player should, IMO.
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To adress some specific issues:
[No it's not. No other "strategy" comes anywhere CLOSE to the ridiculousness of Gamling/Horn/New Chapter.
Yes it is. You justify "I don't want to play against Moria decks packing Such a Little Thing because that is boring for my Boromir ARB deck", or "that Cave Troll deck wrecks my archery fellowship, I don't want to play against that", etc, because you have no official powers to justify the other change, so it's just "your reasoning", and why should anyone's reasoning be held above the others, after all? You cross this line, you corss it. You can't simply say "no, I'll cross it for this scenario, and not others",because you do not have the authority within the game to do that (but you CAN choose who you play against, so I think a description of what you don't want to play - or DO want to play - would work wonders already).
Presumeably because the creators and maintainers of Gemp wouldn't approve ragequitting for those Ents, because they're not truly broken like Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is. That's precisely why I suggest a list of officially frowned-upon strategies be developed.
And who decides what's truly broken? You? Sorry, not gonna happen, some people like playing broken against broken, for instance, or even fighting broken uphill (yeah, some people like to get hurt, what can we do?). Don't like it? Change formats.
Nonsense. If the only approved ragequit turns out to be Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, then it is made quite clear that ragequitting against other deck types is verboten. This allows Gemp to express its disapproval of certain strategies without the need to change the rules or errata cards, while simultaneously allowing players to continue playing against such strategies if they want to, if any such players actually exist.
And why should THIS be the only approved rage quit? Who decides? Again, I'll repeat what I say in every single thread about a Player's Comitee: without official powers from the game's owners, you can't do jack squat aside from just having a gentleman's agreement in your own, private games (which would be solved by the game description, like I said). In tournaments, everything goes, or you file it under "casual" format. There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT that expects people to follow the rules associated with it, it's either Movie Block, or Casual, and if I decide to play a Movie Block tournament and want to play LR, you can be damned sure I'd play it. Period. Again, don't like it? Don't play tournaments or change formats. It's a fine line between "adjusting" the rules and "ruling", and most people are not ready to cross it.
Again, 99% of the time, I agree. And I myself have never ragequit a game. However, I think there should be negative consequences for players who persist in using strategies that are blatantly unfair. And you saying, "well, people should just stop playing Expanded" is throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's not helpful, and it's just your opinion.
No, not 99%, 100% of the time, unless they're actively being an #$&*@! (and no, playing a deck you don't like is NOT being an #$&*@!). For consequences, there are. You just don't play them again. If they can still find games, then I think there are probably quite a few players that are ok with playing against Horn, so again, a nod that if YOU don't like it, YOU should be the one to adapt, not expect the world to bend and adjust.
It may be okay for you, but some of us care about our stats, and don't like them getting skewed unfairly.
And if conceding, no matter what reason = OK, then this is a nonissue. The Gamling/Horn/New Chapter player can simply concede immediately after the ragequit, not have to wait 10 minutes, and everything will be "OK."
If you care about your stats, then man up and face real competition, what good are stats when all you do is play against the decks you consider "fair"? Again, this is a fine line, one moment it's Horn, the other is whatever nukes your deck, even if it's your own fault for streamlining it so much it dies to a single card (yes, this happens). Care about stats? Play on tournaments - and be ready to face whatever is legal to get thrown at you in that format. If you have a problem with a deck in casual games, specify it (again, solved by a description tool, which is probably not that hard to implement anyway), or concede yorself, don't rage quit and expect the opponent to do it, it's not their fault at all.
<shrug> Your view is overly simplistic. The game, like life, is imperfect. Unfairness is going to happen to all of us, and it is better to address that unfairness, than to keep quiet, be a doormat, or stop playing. Life isn't fair, but you're not going to quit life are you?
No, we man up and face it, adapt, adjust. We certainly do not expect the world to accomodate our every need, like and dislike, or rage quit the room when someone says something you don't like, specially if it's someone you don't even know.
On an aside, I want to say I think Horn IS broken, and it IS an oppressive strategy. However, like I said a million times, without actual, real powers to legally change stuff around, I think stuff should no be changed and the players should adapt themselves, because there's a fine line between "fixing a broken strategy" and "tailoring the game to whatever you want", and most people are not ready to handle that kind of responsability, so I think they simply shouldn't have that kind of power.
If it's official, then it's a whole different matter, because you'd HOPE if they ever instated an official group to handle this kind of stuff, they'd actually care about making the choices, instead of just taking whomever volunteers.
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On an aside, I want to say I think Horn IS broken, and it IS an oppressive strategy. However, like I said a million times, without actual, real powers to legally change stuff around, I think stuff should no be changed and the players should adapt themselves, because there's a fine line between "fixing a broken strategy" and "tailoring the game to whatever you want", and most people are not ready to handle that kind of responsability, so I think they simply shouldn't have that kind of power.
If it's official, then it's a whole different matter, because you'd HOPE if they ever instated an official group to handle this kind of stuff, they'd actually care about making the choices, instead of just taking whomever volunteers.
This.
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I really wish we did have an official Player's Committee for this game. Because one rule I would love to implement is that a player cannot replace his or her own site; you can only replace a site that your opponent has played. That would curb a lot of abusive strategies in Expanded/Standard that have your FP stay behind and constantly manipulate the site path to mess with your opponent's FP. But it's a moot point, and that's why I avoid Expanded unless there's a league in that format.
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Decipher will never sanction an official Player's Committee. That's something the community will have to take upon itself if it ever wants such a thing.
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There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT
Well, in fact in latest Movie Block league played on Gemp one serie used this format (while another one used Movie Block as it was left by Decipher). I haven't played in this league, I'd be interested in some players commenting on how meta game changed if it changed significantly between those two series.
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I know lots of people run 2-4 copies of Terrible as the Dawn in Movie Block games where LR is legal.
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There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT
Well, in fact in latest Movie Block league played on Gemp one serie used this format (while another one used Movie Block as it was left by Decipher). I haven't played in this league, I'd be interested in some players commenting on how meta game changed if it changed significantly between those two series.
Thing is, it's still not "Movie Block", it's "Casual". I think it's OK to shorten it and explain "it's the same as movie block, but with LR in the X-List", but if I create a game calling for "Movie Block" decks, LR is still legal.
As for the "if the community wants a PC, they have to do it themselves", it's what I said: they can't. In the end, it's just your playgroup playing casually with your own rules, which is more than fine, but they simply don't have the power to enforce the changes and force them onto the other players. In the end, this just fragments the community even more, and after a while the game will have SO many casual formats, it'll finally dwindle and die, since people will just play within their group of 4-6 people (if that many), until they lose interest due to playing against the same people (and the same decks) all the time.
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This topic is laughable. Allowing rage quitting is ridiculous. Horn can be beaten as can Madril DoO roaming deck. Both are probably NPEs for the opponent, but if you don't like the game/format then don't play it, simple.
Rage-quitting is not fair for any reason. If you don't like to play against specific deck. Just excuse yourself politely ("Sorry, I don't enjoy playing against Horn decks") from the game and concede. Lets all behave like adults.
This.
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http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=MuadDib85$72dk6zz8b6b66v9m
Here is a link that helps show why Madril DoO is comparable to horn deck in power and also why it could be considered a NPE for the opponent. I'm sure there are better examples, this is the first time I build and use Madril deck. I won this game on player time out...
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Since Horn is legal in Expanded, you cannot penalize people for using it in Expanded. Period.
Of course you can. People can do whatever it is in their power to do. Unless someone decides to stop him, it is within my friend's power to penalize people who use Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, and he does. If you refuse to play with someone because they insist on using something that is truly broken, that penalizes them. If we all do that, pretty soon they have no one to play with, or they quit using it. The power of peer pressure.
You can request that your opponent not use Horn if you want, but that's about all you can do.
Well, some people can and do ragequit. I agree that ragequitting isn't cool, but please note that it isn't against the rules, anymore so than using Gamling/Horn/New Chapter. It may indeed be against the rules Gemp establishes for the conduct of its users... but guess what? That has nothing to do with Decipher, or anything else official. And if Gemp decides to modify its rules regarding the conduct of its users, that is within their rights and their power to do.
Same thing with LR in Movie Block. She is technically legal, so if you don't want to play against her, ask that your opponent not use her.
As noted, she can be pretty well crippled by that single card. That is not the case for Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, which accomplishes its filtering before you have the chance to do anything at all.
Well, rage quiting is impolite, and a really jerky move. I think Gemp could have a functionality allowing people to add a small description to the games they create while waiting for opponents - outside of leagues, of course - (like "No Horn" and stuff), and that'd be about it. If a player comes into the table with a horn deck, you politely tell them you specified "No Horn", and they'll leave.
My current policy is, as soon as I see my opponent is playing Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, to tell them I don't play against this strategy, and ask for a mutual cancel request. If they refuse, then I concede.
Tell me: What would be your opinion of a player who is using Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, who refuses to grant a mutual cancel and forces his opponent to either concede or play the game out?
If they don't, THEN I think it IS perfectly ok to just leave and let them hang there, it is written in the game's description you don't want to play against that, after all, that guy is the jerk this time (assuming you tell them their mistake and they still won't leave).
So, here is one scenario at least for which someone thinks ragequitting is appropriate.
You justify "I don't want to play against Moria decks packing Such a Little Thing because that is boring for my Boromir ARB deck",
lol. I actually played against this just the other day, but thankfully I wasn't using Boromir as the ring-bearer. It was annoying, and eventually Boromir did die, but it certainly wasn't broken. I can see people who use Boromir as a ringbearer complaining about this card... but it's a BIG difference between a card that really cripples certain specific deck strategies, versus a card (or combination of cards) that cripples ALL deck strategies, by virtue of filtering all free people's cards out of the deck.
or "that Cave Troll deck wrecks my archery fellowship, I don't want to play against that", etc, because you have no official powers to justify the other change, so it's just "your reasoning", and why should anyone's reasoning be held above the others, after all? You cross this line, you corss it. You can't simply say "no, I'll cross it for this scenario, and not others",because you do not have the authority within the game to do that
The people in charge of Gemp have full authority within that playing environment to establish and enforce any rules of conduct they choose. Setting rules that govern ragequitting has nothing to do with Decipher's rules for the game. It is not changing the game, it is simply setting a tone for what is and is not cool to do. And it wouldn't be "my reasoning," it would be the reasoning of the committee established by Gemp for that purpose.
(but you CAN choose who you play against, so I think a description of what you don't want to play - or DO want to play - would work wonders already).
That works fine, so long as you're only setting up tables, and not joining other people's tables. Of course, that is not always the case.
And who decides what's truly broken? You?
No, the committee.
Sorry, not gonna happen, some people like playing broken against broken, for instance, or even fighting broken uphill (yeah, some people like to get hurt, what can we do?). Don't like it? Change formats.
I don't like it, and I choose NOT to change formats. I'm simply going to refuse to play against people who use Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, and it is totally within my rights and powers to do that. I suggest that all other players do the same.
And why should THIS be the only approved rage quit? Who decides?
The committee.
Again, I'll repeat what I say in every single thread about a Player's Comitee: without official powers from the game's owners, you can't do jack squat aside from just having a gentleman's agreement in your own, private games
Gemp is a privately maintained playing environment, and setting conditions for quitting games that don't change the rules of the format are, essentially, gentleman's agreements.
In tournaments, everything goes, or you file it under "casual" format.
Unless I'm mistaken, League play is pretty much what Gemp has for tournaments, and it is fairly routine for the people who manage those Leagues to set special rules that prevent certain extra-broken strategies from being used.
There's NO such thing as "Movie Block - no LR" for a TOURNAMENT that expects people to follow the rules associated with it,
...and as you saw downthread, yes there is.
It's a fine line between "adjusting" the rules and "ruling", and most people are not ready to cross it.
Setting rules of conduct for players on Gemp, is NOT changing the official rules of the game.
No, not 99%, 100% of the time, unless they're actively being an #$&*@!
In other words, yes, 99% of the time. Again, what do you think of a Gamling/Horn/New Chapter player who refuses a mutual request cancel, if it is made at the very beginning of the game? Is that player actively being an #$&*@?
For consequences, there are. You just don't play them again.
Hmmm. How about a thread specifically for listing players who play with Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, and refuse mutual request cancels?
If they can still find games, then I think there are probably quite a few players that are ok with playing against Horn, so again, a nod that if YOU don't like it, YOU should be the one to adapt, not expect the world to bend and adjust.
I have adapted, in pretty much the same way you and Bib have: I don't play against those decks. I simply haven't quit Expanded altogether, because there's still a lot of fun to be had there. I see no need to quit a format completely, just because of one broken strategy used by a few players. That'd be like performing surgery with a sledgehammer.
If you care about your stats, then man up and face real competition, what good are stats when all you do is play against the decks you consider "fair"?
Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is not real competition, it's simply a broken strategy. You've admitted so yourself.
On an aside, I want to say I think Horn IS broken, and it IS an oppressive strategy.
:uh-huh:
However, like I said a million times, without actual, real powers to legally change stuff around, I think stuff should no be changed
Setting rules for when and how players can quit is not changing anything official about the game.
and the players should adapt themselves, because there's a fine line between "fixing a broken strategy" and "tailoring the game to whatever you want",
So, how do you think Expanded players should "adapt" to handle Gamling/Horn/New Chapter? What do you think is a good strategy to use against that filter?
I really wish we did have an official Player's Committee for this game.
We can't have an official Player's Committee governing the game, but there is no reason we can't have an official Player's Committee governing conduct and behavior on Gemp. Gemp is basically a house where the game is played, and the house can set its own house rules.
Because one rule I would love to implement is that a player cannot replace his or her own site; you can only replace a site that your opponent has played. That would curb a lot of abusive strategies in Expanded/Standard that have your FP stay behind and constantly manipulate the site path to mess with your opponent's FP.
I think that's a great idea. Since that does specifically manipulate the rules of the game, it would probably be best implemented in a new Gemp format, i.e. house rules.
But it's a moot point, and that's why I avoid Expanded unless there's a league in that format.
Why wouldn't you also avoid Expanded in league play?
Well, in fact in latest Movie Block league played on Gemp one serie used this format (while another one used Movie Block as it was left by Decipher).
Exactly. The good folks who manage Gemp can and do make special rules which fundamentally affect the official Decipher rules.
I haven't played in this league, I'd be interested in some players commenting on how meta game changed if it changed significantly between those two series.
Same here.
I know lots of people run 2-4 copies of Terrible as the Dawn in Movie Block games where LR is legal.
Which is why LR is not really in the same class as Gamling/Horn/New Chapter.
Thing is, it's still not "Movie Block", it's "Casual". I think it's OK to shorten it and explain "it's the same as movie block, but with LR in the X-List", but if I create a game calling for "Movie Block" decks, LR is still legal.
I'm not seeing the difference. It's a tournament that was run on Gemp where LR was made illegal. How is that any different than a tournament run on Gemp where New Chapter is made illegal? Because that's all it would take to diffuse the Gamling/Horn combo.
In the end, it's just your playgroup playing casually with your own rules, which is more than fine, but they simply don't have the power to enforce the changes and force them onto the other players.
Gemp has total power to enforce changes, and force them onto the other players. I don't envision ANYBODY quitting Gemp because New Chapter got outlawed.
Horn can be beaten
How? The biggest thing Gamling/Horn/New Chapter does, is filter all free people's cards out of the deck on the first turn, before the opponent can do anything to prevent it from happening. What is your counter to that? It seems to be that the best you can hope for, is to MAYBE get really lucky at site 2. REALLY lucky. So what's your answer? I built one of these decks to study how it works. You want to come on and kick its butt sometime?
Both are probably NPEs for the opponent, but if you don't like the game/format then don't play it, simple.
I don't play it. But one strategy is not equivalent to an entire format. I'm not going to quit a whole format just to avoid playing against one strategy. To me, that is absurd.
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=MuadDib85$72dk6zz8b6b66v9m
Here is a link that helps show why Madril DoO is comparable to horn deck in power and also why it could be considered a NPE for the opponent.
Madril is in no way comparable to Gamling/Horn/New Chapter, because it is not a filter. The strategy is also easily countered and crippled by a single card requiring no culture enforcement (Ships of Great Draught). Give me a single card that I can cripple Gamling/Horn/New Chapter with, and I'll stop complaining about it. If people really thought Madril was broken, they'd be running SoGD against it. The fact is, I play Madril all the time, and almost never see that. People run TatD against LR in Movie... but not SoGD against Madril. What does that tell you?
I'm sure there are better examples, this is the first time I build and use Madril deck. I won this game on player time out...
Whoopy. Play 30 games with it, and tell me what your win percentage is. I think you'll find it is faaarrr from unbeatable.
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Ragequitting is never appropriate under any circumstances. If you don't want to play against a particular deck, concede. It's that simple. In fact, there should be penalties against those who ragequit on a regular basis. That shows a lack of sportsmanship and integrity. You will never get people to agree with your method of dealing with Horn or IB, so you just need to stop whining and actually deal with your problems in a mature adult way.
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Ragequitting is never appropriate under any circumstances.
Your opinion has already been noted.
If a player comes into the table with a horn deck, you politely tell them you specified "No Horn", and they'll leave. If they don't, THEN I think it IS perfectly ok to just leave and let them hang there, it is written in the game's description you don't want to play against that, after all, that guy is the jerk this time (assuming you tell them their mistake and they still won't leave).
...and is not shared by everyone.
If you don't want to play against a particular deck, concede. It's that simple.
Your suggestion is noted. I think I prefer my way better.
In fact, there should be penalties against those who ragequit on a regular basis. That shows a lack of sportsmanship and integrity.
As does playing with Gamling/Horn/New Chapter.
You will never get people to agree with your method of dealing with Horn or IB,
Ragequitting is not my method of dealing with them. I don't have a problem with people who deal with Gamling/Horn/New Chapter that way, though.
so you just need to stop whining and actually deal with your problems in a mature adult way.
This is the adult way: Open discussion. Telling people to just stop playing Expanded, on the other hand... you're basically taking your ball and going home. Is that adult?
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No, the adult thing is to deal with the situation in a sportsmanlike way. You either play the game out or you concede. Period. It is not my "opinion" that ragequitting is unacceptable; it is a FACT. And if you don't like the game, don't play. You can't expect people to play by your own rules that you have made up.
Horn and Madril might not be fun for you to play against, but guess what? That's part of the risk you take when you play Expanded. Just like if you play Fellowship block you might run into choke or Saruman KoI. Or Dauntless Hunter in TStandard and movie block. You have to expect you'll run into those NPEs when you play the formats they're legal in. You cannot expect people not to use them just because of your own preferences.
Lets try an analogy. In a city park, there are four basketball courts. In one court they are playing five-on-five, another is one-on-one, another is HORSE, and another is just folks messing around and shooting hoops casually. If you decide to play on one of those courts, you've got to abide by the rules of the kind of game they're playing. If a HORSE player makes a seemingly impossible shot, you can either try up make it yourself, or politely walk away from the game. It is NOT okay to throw the ball away as hard as you can and laugh while the other players run and fetch the ball.
Horn and Madril are annoying, but they're not invincible.
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You either play the game out or you concede. Period. It is not my "opinion" that ragequitting is unacceptable; it is a FACT.
I'm 100% with you. Rage quitting or quitting for any reason other than a computer or internet problem is ridiculous, especially when its so easy to just click on concede.
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You either play the game out or you concede. Period.
Why do you invent stuff? Request cancel is an option. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have been programmed into the system.
It is not my "opinion" that ragequitting is unacceptable; it is a FACT.
No, it quite literally is your opinion. It's one that I share in most circumstances, but it's still just an opinion.
And if you don't like the game, don't play.
Who says I don't like the game? I love the game. If I didn't, I wouldn't play. I don't like the Gamling/Horn/New Chapter combo because it is undeniably broken, therefore I choose not to play against that combo. That is within my power and right to do.
You can't expect people to play by your own rules that you have made up.
I haven't made anything up. It takes at least two people to play this game. If they want to play against me, then they won't be using Gamling/Horn/New Chapter. If they want to play you, I guess they won't be using it either, since you've abandoned the whole format.
Horn and Madril might not be fun for you to play against,
I don't have a problem with Madril. I don't have a problem with the Horn either, just that particular combination.
but guess what? That's part of the risk you take when you play Expanded.
No it isn't, because I'm not going to play against it.
Just like if you play Fellowship block you might run into choke or Saruman KoI. Or Dauntless Hunter in TStandard and movie block. You have to expect you'll run into those NPEs when you play the formats they're legal in. You cannot expect people not to use them just because of your own preferences.
Considering they already ran a league series where LR was forbidden, it seems to me that you can expect people not to use certain strategies, under certain conditions. Gemp has the power to enforce what it wants.
Horn and Madril are annoying, but they're not invincible.
Madril is far from invincible. Gamling/Horn/New Chapter is pretty close, though. It offers an extremely unfair advantage, without any need for skill, coupled with the irritation of having to sit around for ten minutes while the G/H/NC player plays out half his deck. And apparently you must agree with this on some level, because you don't play Expanded.
In fact, considering you don't even play the format being discussed, why are you even in this conversation?
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Because you are trying to justify quitting without conceding, which is one of the most unsportsmanlike thing you can do in this game. I have no problem with someone conceding near the beginning of a a game if that's what they want to do. It is never okay to quit and make your opponent wait 10 minutes for the win.
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Because you are trying to justify quitting without conceding, which is one of the most unsportsmanlike thing you can do in this game.
I think it ranks right up there with Gamling/Horn/New Chapter. And as far as I'm concerned, an eye for an eye.
It is never okay to quit and make your opponent wait 10 minutes for the win.
How about making your opponent wait around 10 minutes so that they can almost certainly lose? Because that's what Gamling/Horn/New Chapter does. You sit around and stare at your screen for about ten minutes while your opponent plays out every free people's card in his deck. Then, when he's finally done, you have the privilege of losing.
But you have dodged a few questions: You've said that you'd play expanded in league form, just not casual. Why? What makes League different for you?
Various folks have given variations on "man up and adapt," and insisted that Gamling/Horn/New Chapter ain't all that horrible. Okay, let's have some specifics then: What do you do to counter that? What makes it beatable? At least one person thinks it's comparable to Madril. I have an excellent Madril deck, but it's win % is still only around 65%-70%. So, how do you beat Gamling/Horn/New Chapter?
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You're saying that Horn is an auto loss? It's not. There are no auto losses in this game. Decipher was kind enough to provide the players with multiple ways to win.
I play Expanded in League because I want to. I don't need to justify my actions to you.
You beat Horn by playing smart. I'm not going to help you specifically because all you're going to do is whine and complain. Grow up. It's really pathetic the way you keep carrying on.
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I think we should just leave this thread. It seems draino goesnt get the point we make, and as the bad sportmanship player he is, leave him be and just dont play him in Gemp. he isnt worth it.
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Ok, this is on the verge of derailing into flaming, so I'm locking it and calling it quits. If the thread's owner refuses to get the point being made, people that think he is a whiner can simply choose not to play against him. As for the rage-quitting issues, I think it needs to be discussed with MarcinS, because a lot of players are in fact complaining about people doing this, and I think something needs to be done within Gemp, so I suggest people who use Gemp(I'm still a GCCG player because of the economy and trading aspect, though I haven't logged in in quite a while) contact him directly.