The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => Valinor => Topic started by: Hobbiton Lad on December 17, 2012, 12:58:28 PM
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I'm really excited to show this to you guys today. When Fenix and I looked at the Isengard culture, we were really challenged to figure out how to incorporate the Isengard Orcs, the Uruk-hai, and Saruman into a complete and cohesive set. As you will see from this 41-card initial foray into the culture, we had these distinct design goals in mind:
- Make Isengard Orcs a "behind the scenes" subculture that exists to enhance and equip Uruk-hai
- Make Uruk-hai benefit from battlegrounds and through Isengard Orc assistance
- Make Saruman a much more dangerous minion on his own rather than just a support card for other strategies
With those goals in mind, we decided to give all the Isengard Orcs the lurker keyword. You'll also see the cunning keyword in this culture, which is a new keyword introduced in Second Edition. A cunning minion may not take wounds during the archery phase and may not be assigned to a skirmish.
There will no doubt be broken and/or overpowered cards here. This is not the finished product. I just wanted to show you guys how hard we've been working on this and give you a little morsel to wet your appetite. We have over 200 cards designed so far and will begin playtesting no later than February. This is for real and it's going to happen. Thanks to those of you who have expressed support thus far and for the skeptics out there, I hope you'll continue to hold us accountable to meet our design goals and timelines.
So, without further delay, I present the Isengard culture. (http://postimage.org/gallery/612vp4yo/)
EDIT: I've already noticed a couple typographical errors. I'll get those corrected shortly.
EDIT: Typos are fixed and a text-only version is now attached to this post.
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Do you have a text-only version? Would be way more comfortable for reviewing purposes.
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Do you have a text-only version? Would be way more comfortable for reviewing purposes.
Hmm. Let me check into that. We should be able to export the spreadsheet for the culture to a PDF pretty easily.
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Text-only spoiler now attached.
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Were are the set identifying numbers/rarity numbers on the cards? Are those going to be added later?
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Were are the set identifying numbers/rarity numbers on the cards? Are those going to be added later?
Yes. Those will be added later. Some cards may not make the final cut, and so I decided to wait on numbering them until after playtesting is complete and we are slimmed down to the actual release cards.
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Few general comments:
- Base sets should be simple and not introduce too many keywords. This is because usually base set is a first thing a new player sees and experiences. Maybe "Lurker" can be dropped?
Card comments:
- Build Me an Army - The phrase in brackets will have to be used, if the condition is met (can spot 6 companions), as a result if there are 6+ companions and shadow player has only enough twilight to play one minion, he will not be able to use the card. I'm not sure if that's the effect you were going for though.
- My Fighting Uruk-hai - It might cause Shadow player to discard his own Conditions, if there is more Battlegrounds than FP conditions. Once again, not sure if that's the effect you were going for.
- Wizard's Grasp - I think it would be better if it was "If a FP event is played..."
- The Palantir... - So it works only with Conditions that are discarded (from play), as events are not discarded (from play), correct? Yet there is no Spell conditions in the set yet?
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First impression: I see 3 decktypes emerging here. Which is quite good efficiency for 41 cards. The decks are:
1. Orcs and Uruks.
2. Uruks and battlegrounds.
3. Ninja Saruman.
About individual cards. Hard to say which ones are too strong, as I haven't seen the other cultures. Ones that are definitely too weak:
- Build Me an Army. Takes up deck space, hand space, and wastes twilight (you need to pay for the Orc first and get no discount when playing the Uruk). See Morgul Squealer - he rarely sees play even though he is a minion with the event built in and has better extra ability when there's a big fellowship.
- Sword of Orthanc and Uruk-hai Pike - I feel they do too similar things to deserve two card slots, one of them can go.
- Isengard Unleased. Not sure about the whole initiative subtheme, but the "discard to prevent a wound" ability is not good on a unique card providing another ability. Note that both successful cards of this type in 1E (Goblin Armory and Hides) are non-unique.
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Thank you for your comments!
We will need to change the wording on Build me an army so that you can still play it if there isn't enough twilight. Not sure if we want to change My Fighting Uruk Hai or not, will consider it. The palantir is intended to work with event spells. We can change the wording to reflect that intention.
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- The Palantir... - So it works only with Conditions that are discarded (from play), as events are not discarded (from play), correct? Yet there is no Spell conditions in the set yet?
From Comprehensive Rules 4.0:
"An event is a card played from your hand representing an important occurrence, which you discard after you play it."
This means that events with the Spell keyword would be eligible for stacking, provided the cost of spotting Saruman is met. This would also mean that any conditions with the Spell keyword that are discarded from play could be stacked as well.
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- The Palantir... - So it works only with Conditions that are discarded (from play), as events are not discarded (from play), correct? Yet there is no Spell conditions in the set yet?
From Comprehensive Rules 4.0:
"An event is a card played from your hand representing an important occurrence, which you discard after you play it."
This means that events with the Spell keyword would be eligible for stacking, provided the cost of spotting Saruman is met. This would also mean that any conditions with the Spell keyword that are discarded from play could be stacked as well.
But also:
"The default meaning of the word “discard” is “discard from play.” Discarding from other locations (such as from your hand or from the top of your draw deck) is always specified."
That's why I hate the word "discard" and the ambiguity it brings. Maybe use "When Spell event is played" if the intention is to use it only for Spell events?
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Because the spell is in play (i.e., played) before it is discarded, then it is discarded from play. Here is the chain for actions for an event.
1) Meet Requirements
2) Pay Costs
3) Play Event (this means that the event is now in play)
4) Resolve effects of the event
5) Discard the event (from play)
I don't mind to reword it, but I'm trying not to make card phrasings too difficult either.
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Because the spell is in play (i.e., played) before it is discarded, then it is discarded from play. Here is the chain for actions for an event.
1) Meet Requirements
2) Pay Costs
3) Play Event (this means that the event is now in play)
4) Resolve effects of the event
5) Discard the event (from play)
I don't mind to reword it, but I'm trying not to make card phrasings too difficult either.
You can go for similar wording to Shrouded Elf, and no - I don't think events are ever in play, if so they would trigger a lot of "when ... is discarded from play", which could dramatically change the game.
So:
"Response: If a Spell event is played, spot Saruman to stack the event here."
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The Palantir: I think events are discarded from play. In the rules, it's clear you should "Discard an event after you play it." Discarding from hand would mean you didn't use it. It stays in play for only a short period of time, but they do. Is this what you're going for? Seems OP to me even having to spot Saruman.
Wizard's Grasp: Pay 1 twilight AND exert Saruman TWICE to cancel one single event? Cost seems way too high for such a simple effect.
Find the Halflings!: Just a little detail. If you're referring to Lurtz's line in the movie, he says "Find the halfling! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_muJKVLx3Y)", singular.
In general:
- You meant for the player to not be able to use only Orcs, right? Just checking.
- All minions (and most cards) seem too special. I think there should be less great minions and more stupid ones for balance (like "when you play this minion, remove [2] if you spot an Elf" or no text at all besides the usual Damage+1 for Uruks).
- I also miss more common events, like simply adding +2 to strength (or +3/+4 if certain criteria are met). All of Saruman's spells are considerably strong. I doubt a fellowship could move past those [Isengard] #$&*@!. There's a lot of damage to companions and even though you could try to offset it with healing options, it'd end up giving more twilight for the Shadow player to deal more damage. At least that's what I'm foreseeing (I don't have a Palantir, tho :D).
- You should use "Free Peoples player" instead of "Free Peoples Player"
- Sorry, but what is "Cunning"? I'm not used to/don't remember this keyword and couldn't find any reference to it.
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"1. Reveal The Card from your hand, and it enters the void (not in your hand, not in your discard pile, not in play)."
(...)
"4. If The Card is not an event, place it in the appropriate place. If the card you are playing is a Character, Possession, Artifact, or Condition, place it on the playing surface. The Card is now in play."
(...)
"7. The card is played. Events go to the discard pile (or where they are instructed to go if the card specifies) and other cards are in play."
At no points in the "playing a card" entry does it say that events enter play. They go form Hand to Void, then from Void to Discard. Quite the contrary - Events are explicitly said to not enter play, whenever any other played card would enter play.
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"1. Reveal The Card from your hand, and it enters the void (not in your hand, not in your discard pile, not in play)."
(...)
"4. If The Card is not an event, place it in the appropriate place. If the card you are playing is a Character, Possession, Artifact, or Condition, place it on the playing surface. The Card is now in play."
(...)
"7. The card is played. Events go to the discard pile (or where they are instructed to go if the card specifies) and other cards are in play."
I'm sorry, but that's a reference to...?
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I disagree with the point that we should have more stupid minions. It makes sense for a card game company to have these cards because they are selling packs and filler adds some incentive to buy more product. However, we aren't selling anything so doesn't make sense to create cards that no one would ever use.
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Oh, right, you don't think of collecting, you want ppl to have all the cards from the get go. I forgot about how you do it in Gemp. Geez, I should quit =/
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Seeking my counsel: this card is way too strong for 0 twilight. I like the idea, but the twilight cost is too low for such a strong effect. Even without the added threats, it is better than A wizard is never late. With the threats, it is better than Captured by the ring... And in 2E, Saruman is very strong.
Treachery runs deep: the twilight cost should be raised as well. With all those Uruk Hai that are damage +1, you can inflict 3 damages (or 4 if you have 2 such events in hand). A twilight cost of 3 would maybe weaken a bit this killer card
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Overall, I think that you guys are doing a good job at designing the cards. How do you plan to playtest them?
I feel that the Orc-Uruk strategy seems weaker the the Uruk Battleground strategy.
My Fighting Uruk-Hai, perhaps not the greatest card name. It sounds like a toy name to me.
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MarcinS is correct re: discarding events. Events never go into play, so they can't be discarded in the way the Palantir wants them to be. The Palantir needs to be reworded to say "If you play a spell..."
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MarcinS is correct re: discarding events. Events never go into play, so they can't be discarded in the way the Palantir wants them to be. The Palantir needs to be reworded to say "If you play a spell..."
Of "If a spell is played", as it is supposed to also catch FP spells played by an opponent?
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MarcinS is correct re: discarding events. Events never go into play, so they can't be discarded in the way the Palantir wants them to be. The Palantir needs to be reworded to say "If you play a spell..."
Of "If a spell is played", as it is supposed to also catch FP spells played by an opponent?
Finally someone catches the really nasty side of the Palantir... ;)
It will be reworded for clarity. But yes, as of right now, this is the intent. It may be too abusive, but I definitely want to see it playtested. At one point in time, Saruman could best Gandalf in a duel, so I wanted to reflect that in this card.