The Last Homely House
Middle-Earth => Archives of Minas Tirith => Topic started by: hrcho on January 30, 2010, 09:23:29 PM
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I was trying to build a Bilbo, BOTB deck and a couple of questions popped up:
1) I saw another topic about Bilbo, BOTB and someone said one could use his text to play NFFATROD during to regroup phase. Is it possible to play a skirmish event during the regroup phase?
2) Can one draw a card using the text of Red Book of Westmarch if the tale played is RBoW itself?
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For question 1 - i would say no. It is similar to another debate recently about a site that allowed you to play weather cards. Link below:
http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,3627.0.html
Events cannot be played in a phase that does not match their phase action - it says so in the Rulebook. That said there was still debate over this.
For question 2 - Red Book of Westmarch must be in play when you play a tale to draw a card. As it is unique, you can't play additional copies to draw cards from the first. The first time you play it you wouldn't draw a card, because the effect of the card comes into play after you play the card - if that makes sense. At least that's how i see it.
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For question 1 - i would say no. It is similar to another debate recently about a site that allowed you to play weather cards. Link below:
http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,3627.0.html
Events cannot be played in a phase that does not match their phase action - it says so in the Rulebook. That said there was still debate over this.
Are you sure? It's still a tale so if you add a burden you should be able to do it. Seems legal to me.
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Are you sure? It's still a tale so if you add a burden you should be able to do it. Seems legal to me.
Did you read the cited example? Exactly the same question, and it was hashed and rehashed and argued and reargued... the end of the matter is, events can ONLY be played in their relevant phase. No exceptions, unlike other card types.
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in my understanding, events are more or less one-time special abilities, so you cannot use a skirmish special ability in regroup or vice-versa.
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Are you sure? It's still a tale so if you add a burden you should be able to do it. Seems legal to me.
Did you read the cited example? Exactly the same question, and it was hashed and rehashed and argued and reargued... the end of the matter is, events can ONLY be played in their relevant phase. No exceptions, unlike other card types.
You still not convinced me. Diversion is also a regroup event and only the gametext makes it possible to play it in the skirmish, which is not the relevant phase. So there's the exception on the very same matter already! It wouldn't suprise me if you can use Bilbo to bend the rules by using his gametext. Same counts for your example. And actually also for: Dammed Gate-stream
Don't get me wrong. I think it should not be possible, but because of diversion I think it's legal. Otherwise Diversion allways would be illegal.
Ps: And a bit less aggresive woudl be appreciated ;)
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For the Mark is another, but such events specifically mention they can be played in another phase.
As I see it, attempting to play NFFATROD in the regroup with Bilbo is like trying to break the Rule of 4 with Delving. Bilbo's text doesn't imply it can break the event rule, so therefore NFFATROD has to work within that framework.
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For the Mark is another, but such events specifically mention they can be played in another phase.
As I see it, attempting to play NFFATROD in the regroup with Bilbo is like trying to break the Rule of 4 with Delving. Bilbo's text doesn't imply it can break the event rule, so therefore NFFATROD has to work within that framework.
Get what you mean. Thing is you can say that's it not an event but a tale and he can play a tale in the regroup. He doesn't imply that the keyword is relevant for it.
It's kind of same discussion as mentioned here: http://lotrtcgdb.com/forums/index.php/topic,3900.msg45820.html#msg45820
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Not seeing the basis here for ignoring the card type; trying to play NFFATROD in the regroup counts as trying to play an event in the regroup. :P
I checked the discussion you linked, but I'm not sure what part of it you're relating to this.
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Not seeing the basis here for ignoring the card type; trying to play NFFATROD in the regroup counts as trying to play an event in the regroup. :P
I checked the discussion you linked, but I'm not sure what part of it you're relating to this.
For the Mark is another, but such events specifically mention they can be played in another phase.
Bilbo mention that a tale can be played in the regroup. It doesn't say that it must be in the specific phase. So The base for it that it not specifies a card type.. it specifies a tale and this can be any tale in this game. It doesn't mind if the text is on the same card like Diversion. It's the same situation. I think the rule is in contradiction with itself here.
I'm relating it to the part that you ignore uniqueness with Hobbit of Tales
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the way I see it, unless the card itself explicitly says to "ignore that card's game text", you can't go against the card itself. If you were at the Bridge of Khazad-dum (http://lotrtcgdb.com/pages/LOTR01349.html), you wouldn't be able to play, say, The Balrog, Flame of Udun, without spotting a moria orc. That's the same thing you're trying to do...play a card without paying its cost, whether it be twilight or exertion or spotting or waiting for the correct phase. So even though Bilbo says "play a tale", he doesn't say "play a tale, (and if an event, as if it were played in the correct phase)".
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There are no rules that states that a condition may not be played in the regroup phase, it happens with cards like some secret art of flame, but thats because playing conditions is not limited to the fellowship phase while playing events is limited to the phase it says.
For a card to be played all requirements must be filled, in order to play NFFATROD in the regroup phase it must also be the skirmish phase BECAUSE it is a skirmish event. So by playing NFFATROD in the regroup phase you must avoid a requirement, that it must be the skirmish phase.
So basically, I agree with TelTura
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Well this can become a philosofical discussion :P , because he doesn't say it otherwise as well. Diversion still does the same: It doesn't say ignore that cards gametext. I realy think this is a flaw in the gametext. Just like a hobbit of tales.
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I don't know why you keep referencing "Hobbit of Tales", as it is not a real card and therefore not indicative of correct rulings interpretations. :P
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I am going to end this discussion.
Like it was said before, but the Rule Book specifically states an event may not be played outside of its phase. Bilbo, Bearer of Things Burgled does not circumvent that rule; rather, it allows you to play an elligble card during that phase. I liked the Balrog, Flame of Udun example. Even though Bridge of Khazad-Dum allows you to play the Balrog, it does not take away other conditions necessary to playing Flame of Udun.
To continue re-hashing already-made points, there is no rule that states that Conditions may only be played during the Fellowship phase; however, that is the only phase that actively let's you play them without another card allowing you to play it (such a Treebeard, Keeper of the Watchwood).
Here is another example. If you have The Tale of the Great Ring in play, you may not use Bilbo to play another copy during the regroup phase because there is a specific rule regarding unique cards. Bilbo says "play a tale" but as I said, it is required that the Tale is elligible for play.
Events are not elligible for play outside of their phase. Thus, you cannot play Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom in the Regroup phase.
-wtk
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Huh, this topic kinda escalated :o
A simple "yes" or "no" would've sufficed, but thank you all for participation ;)
Conclusion: If I ever play against Smeagollum, I'll play NFFATROD in the regroup phase, otherwise no. ;)
:gp: to Smeagollum for sheer determination (or stubbornness if you will)
:mrgreen:
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Huh, this topic kinda escalated :o
A simple "yes" or "no" would've sufficed, but thank you all for participation ;)
Conclusion: If I ever play against Smeagollum, I'll play NFFATROD in the regroup phase, otherwise no. ;)
:gp: to Smeagollum for sheer determination (or stubbornness if you will)
:mrgreen:
I think what the others say should be the ruling. However I think that a real philosofer would make meat about their argument and this is a maze in the ruling...
;) But if you want to play it against me I've totaly no problem with it, because it takes to many cards to make it usefull and still then it's vulnerable. Also the example with the weathercondition is no real opt: To complicated and you need exact timing. If it works it's cool.
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ket... you said almost the exact same thing as me only more eloquently...
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;) But if you want to play it against me I've totaly no problem with it, because it takes to many cards to make it usefull and still then it's vulnerable.
Massive regroup healing is not vulnerable at all! All it takes is Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom and a few copies of The Shire Countryside--it adds the burdens and removes them for mass healing of your Fellowship before a double move.
more eloquently...
I would say more frustratedly. But :gp: since I did steal a lot of what you said in an effort to close this post (that has only lived on with several more posts since mine).
-wtk
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;) But if you want to play it against me I've totaly no problem with it, because it takes to many cards to make it usefull and still then it's vulnerable.
Massive regroup healing is not vulnerable at all! All it takes is Nine-Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom and a few copies of The Shire Countryside--it adds the burdens and removes them for mass healing of your Fellowship before a double move.
more eloquently...
I would say more frustratedly. But :gp: since I did steal a lot of what you said in an effort to close this post (that has only lived on with several more posts since mine).
-wtk
Condition removal maybe?
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Well, now it depends on the format. If we are in open or expanded, we can use Scourging of the Shire to protect our precious [Shire] conditions.
Otherwise, your argument that it takes a lot of cards to set up falls to the argument that yours takes a lot of cards to tear it down (outside of Saruman's Power which is one-and-done, how do you expect to discard several conditions).
It only takes one copy of The Shire Countryside to be a net gain...0 burdens for one heal. Sounds good to me.
-wtk
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Throw Yourself in Next Time
Morgul brute
Archery
Black Breath
Ravage the Defeated
Sauron Discard
Shelob/web
You want me to continue?
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Listen, you are always going to be able to find counters to any strategy (albeit Morgul Brute doesn't do #$&*@! seeing as the burdens would be added and immediately removed in the regroup phase).
Why are you arguing that additional regoup healing would not be helpful?! That is arguing for the sake of arguing, and frankly it doesn't matter because it is illegal anyways.
-wtk
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I'm not arguing it... I'm just saying that there's enough to counter it, while you started to state that's it not vulnerable.... :)
Also allthough it seems that I'm the only one willing to allow this action you would still have to pay for it.. that would mean that you would need to add a burden to play a tale. So if you want to remove the burden with nffatrod then you will still have a burden after it.. Gues Morgul Brute will still work ;)
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Add a burden to play a [Shire] tale.
Exert a hobbit (Bilbo?) to remove a burden.
Heal accordingly with The Shire Countryside.
I am seeing a net zero burdens.
Also, how was Ravage the Defeated supposed to be at all helpful in this scenario? While having copies of the Shire Countryside in play is, itself, as vulnerable as having any other condition in play, the concept of massive regroup healing is something that the designers of the game wanted to avoid because of the ease of double moving with fully healed companions. With the exception of King Block site sixes, most cards that specify regroup healing only remove one or two wounds (a few exceptions, like the X-ed Steadfast Champion are there...I don't want you to list a bunch of those cards for me because I don't care).
The ruling remains that playing events out of their phase is illegal and while this example has limited (albeit nice) use, there are other examples which have the potential of being much more broken.
-wtk
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Although I agree that NFFatRoD can't be played in regroup, I don't see how it would make a difference anyway. Just play it during your last skirmish. The only wounds it couldn't heal would be the wounds that may have been dealt in that skirmish. But, with strategy and timing, this isn't a big deal.
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uhm Ket, you forget one thing you won't remove the burden which is added with the morgul Brute..
Shadow plays say An Otsea with a morgul Brute: You will need to take the burden, because you can't take wounds because of consorting with wizards (Most people will use cww).
Then your actions:
Add a burden to play a Shire tale.
Exert a hobbit (Bilbo?) to remove a burden.
Heal accordingly with The Shire Countryside.
Result there will still be a burden.
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uhm Ket, you forget one thing you won't remove the burden which is added with the morgul Brute..
You have to spot a Nazgul to add a burden or wound the Ring-Bearer. Most people opt for the wound.
In the case of Consorting with Wizards, it does force the wound; however, you did not specify that Bilbo was the Ring-Bearer anyways. Most people play him as another [Shire] companion with Sam, Great Elf Warrior and your choice of Frodo, Merry, and Pippin.
-wtk
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uhm Ket, you forget one thing you won't remove the burden which is added with the morgul Brute..
You have to spot a Nazgul to add a burden or wound the Ring-Bearer. Most people opt for the wound.
In the case of Consorting with Wizards, it does force the wound; however, you did not specify that Bilbo was the Ring-Bearer anyways. Most people play him as another [Shire] companion with Sam, Great Elf Warrior and your choice of Frodo, Merry, and Pippin.
-wtk
Well you know what I mean. The action is only usefull in twillight denial Bilbo as rb.