The Last Homely House
Undying Lands => Valinor => Topic started by: Merrick_H on September 24, 2014, 07:52:29 PM
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Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Gandalf & Dwarves/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Rohan Allies/Moria & Isengard Archery
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Series 1 Decks
Dwarves & Gandalf/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Western Emyn Muil
Wold of Rohan
Barrows of Edoras
White Mountains
Helm's Gate
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Wizard's Vale
Library of Orthanc
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Farin, Dwarven Emissary
1x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
2x Gimli, Unbidden Guest
2x Thrarin Smith of Erebor
3x Gandalf, The Grey Pilgrim
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Wielder of the Flame
2x Dwarven Axe
2x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
3x Axe Strike
1x Flurry of Blows
1x Have Patience
2x Mysterious Wizard
1x Sleep Caradhras
2x Severed His Bonds
Shadow Draw Deck:
1x Gate Veteran
2x Orc Assassin
2x Orc Butcher
3x Orc Cutthroat
2x Orc Insurgent
1x Orc Patrol
2x Orc Runner
3x Orc Scouting Band
2x Orc Swordsman
3x Orc Scimitar
1x A Host Avails Little
2x I'd Make You Squeak
2x Teeth of Mordor
1x The Number Must Be Few
3x Under the Watching Eye
Rohan Allies/ Moria & Isengard Archery
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Horse-Country
Plains of Rohan Camp
Throne Room
White Mountains
Helm's Gate
Hornburg Hall
King's Room
Wizard's Vale
Fortress of Orthanc
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Eowyn, Lady of Rohan
2x Theoden, Lord of the Mark
2x Rider of Rohan
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Armor
1x Brego
3x Rider's Mount
2x Rider's Spear
1x Herugrim
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Well Stored
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Noble Intentions
2x An Honorable Charge
2x Fight for the Villagers
2x Work for the Sword
Shadow Draw Deck
3x Uruk Crossbow Troop
4x Uruk Crossbowman
4x Goblin Bowman
3x Goblin Runner
3x Goblin Marksman
2x Moria Archer Troop
1x Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul
2x Hate and Anger
2x Cloud of Arrows
2x Host of Thousands
2x Saruman's Ambition
2x They Are Coming
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
The Riddermark
Eastfold
Barrows of Edoras
Ered Nimrais
Deep of Helm
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Wall
Wizard's Vale
Saruman's Laboratory
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Gimli, Dwarven Delegate
1x Fereveldir, Son of Thandronen
1x Haldir, Emissary of the Galadhrim
2x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood
2x Aragorn, Heir of Elendil
1x Bounder
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
2x Elven Sword
2x Athelas
2x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Khazad Ai-menu
1x Quick As May Be
2x Valor
1x Defend It and Hope
2x Trust
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Agility
Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Uruk Chaser
2x Uruk Hunter
2x Uruk Pursuer
3x Uruk Runner
3x Uruk Scout
2x Uruk Searcher
2x Uruk Seeker
1x Ulaire Enquea, Lieutenant of Morgul
2x Broad-bladed Sword
2x Kill Them Now
3x Many Riddles
2x Saruman's Ambition
3x Weary
Series 2 Decks
Ring Bound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Tired Traveller
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
East Wall of Rohan
Uruk Camp
Barrows of Edoras
Ered Nimrais
Hornburg Parapet
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Wizard's Vale
Palantir Chamber
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Faramir, Ithilien Ranger
2x Gondorian Ranger
2x Ranger of Ithilien
2x Sam, Proper Poet
1x Boromir's Gauntlets
2x Ranger's Bow
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Dagger Strike
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Pathfinder
2x Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom
2x War and Valor
1x What Are They?
2x Severed His Bonds
1x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
1x Ithilien Trap
1x There and Back Again
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Gollum, Old Villain
2x Easterling Axeman
3x Easterling Guard
3x Easterling Infantry
3x Easterling Lieutenant
2x Easterling Infantry
2x Easterling Polearm
2x Nasty, Foul Hobbitses
3x We Must Have It
3x Gathering to the Summons
3x Men of Rhun
2x Evil-smelling Fens
Knights/Dunland Discard
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Eastemnet Downs
Rohirrim Village
Westemnet Plains
Westemnet Hills
Deeping Wall
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Ring of Isengard
Saruman's Laboratory
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
2x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
1x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Gondor Will See It Done
2x Might of Numenor
2x Take Cover
3x War Must Be
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Dunlending Arsonist
2x Dunlending Headman
3x Dunlending Looter
3x Dunlending Rampager
3x Dunlending Renegade
3x Hillman Tribe
3x Wild Man of Dunland
3x Orc Inquisitor
2x Tower Lieutenant
2x Burn Every Village
2x Death to the Strawheads
2x Bound By Rage
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Mr. Underhill
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Horse-country
Uruk Camp
Meduseld
Westemnet Hills
Helm's Gate
Hornburg Armory
King's Room
Nan Curunir
Fortress of Orthanc
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund
2x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall
2x Household Guard
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Leod, Westfold Herdsman
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Brego
2x Horse of Rohan
1x Herugrim
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Javelin
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
1x Armory
2x An Honorable Charge
1x Have Patience
1x Behold the White Rider
1x Ever the Hope of Men
1x Severed His Bonds
Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Morgul Skulker
2x The Witch-king, Deathless Lord
3x Ulaire Attea, The Easterling
3x Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight
2x Ulaire Nertea, Winged Hunter
3x Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight
2x Fell Beast
2x Nazgul Sword
3x It Wants to be Found
3x Threshold of Shadow
2x Blade Tip
2x Drawn to Its Power
Series 3 Decks
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Son of Drogo
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure deck:
Rocks of Emyn Muil
Uruk Camp
Barrows of Edoras
White Rocks
Deep of Helm
Caves of Aglarond
Hornburg Causeway
Valley of Saruman
Fortress of Orthanc
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Arwen, Elven Rider
2x Aragorn, King in Exile
2x Boromir, Defender of Minas Tirith
2x Faramir, Son of Denethor
2x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Bounder
1x Asfaloth
2x Athelas
1x Boromir's Gauntlets
1x Ranger's Sword
2x Sword of Gondor
1x Defiance
1x Dagger Strike
1x Gondor's Vengeance
1x Might of Numenor
1x Pathfinder
1x Eregion's Trails
1x Perilous Ventures
1x We Must Go Warily
3x Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom
1x No Stranger to the Shadows
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Berserk Rager
2x Uruk Engineer
3x Uruk Sapper
2x Uruk Shaman
2x Uruk Slayer
2x Uruk Warrior
4x Uruk-Hai Berserker
3x Broad Bladed Sword
1x Uruk Spear
3x Bred for Battle
2x Assault Ladder
2x Battering Ram
2 Uruk-hai Rampage
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure Deck:
Eastemnet Gullies
Wold of Rohan
Barrows of Edoras
White Rocks
Helm's Gate
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Wall
Nan Curunir
Fortress of Orthanc
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
2x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Lively Combatant (starting)
2x Balglin, Elven Warrior
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood (starting)
1x Ordulus, Young Warrior
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Erestor, Chief Advisor to Elrond
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
2x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Still Draws Breath
2x Flashing Steel
2x Valor
2x Shoulder to Shoulder
Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Desert Spearman
2x Desert Warrior
3x Elite Archer
2x Far Harad Mercenaries
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
2x Southron Explorer
3x Southron Traveler
3x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x Flanking Attack
2x On the March
2x Whirling Strike
Hobbits & Semagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Master of the Precious
Ring: The One Ring, The Ruling Ring
Adventure Deck:
Eastemnet Downs
Derndingle
Golden Hall
White Rocks
Deeping Wall
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Wizard's Vale
Caverns of Isengard
Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature
1x Merry, From O'er the Brandywine
1x Pippin, Friend to Frodo
1x Sam, Nice Sensible Hobbit
1x Bounder
1x Rosie Cotton, Hobbiton Lass
2x Brace of Coneys
1x Frying Pan
2x Don't Follow the Lights
2x Not Listening
3x Hobbit Intuition
1x It Burns Us
2x Mind Your Own Affairs
2x Stout and Sturdy
2x Swiftly and Softly
3x Poor Wretch
1x A Talent for Not Being Seen
1x Kept Safe
1x Rare Good Ballast
1x There and Back Again
Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Grima, Son of Galmod
2x Isengard Retainer
2x Isengard Servant
2x Isengard Smith
2x Isengard Worker
4x Rohirrim Traitor
3x Saruman, Servant of the Eye
3x Unferth, Grima's Bodyguard
4x Men Will Fall
4x Desertion
1x Twisted Tales
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dmaz (RB/Burdens) vs Merrick_H (Dwarf/Gandalf & Sauron Trackers)
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$387sqflxcyhlo5o9
Win goes to dmaz. Sam was the winner here. Some really smart play with limiting wounds on the hobbits.
General impressions:
Too many conditions on the shadow side of the sauron deck. Peril has limited usefulness unless you can reasonably risk only getting one minion out and will be able to keep him alive with an extra vitality.
Minions are pretty expensive and can't overwhelm for crowd control as sauron has no pumps outside of the sword. Might want to look at putting in some anti-6 minions like the gate veteran, otherwise ballooning is going to be the way to out run the shadow.
Gloin should be Thrarin, SoE (12U13) so I shouldn't have started him, but it didn't affect things much. Might have made a difference in some skirmishes if I had played him later, but a good trial none the less. Plains of Rohan doesn't work. Only 4 dwarf companions in the deck and you have to spot a dwarf to play 2 of them so unless we add a dwarf guard or something to allow a Thrarin, SoE/ Dwarf Guard pull Gimli start, the site will need to be changed.
The Dwarves and Gandalf would have a really hard time doubling until Gimli and Thrarin get set up. The limited Frodo protection makes moving with much twilight out there really risky.
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dmaz (RB/Burdens) vs Merrick_H (Dwarf/Gandalf & Sauron Trackers)
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$387sqflxcyhlo5o9
Win goes to dmaz. Sam was the winner here. Some really smart play with limiting wounds on the hobbits.
General impressions:
Too many conditions on the shadow side of the sauron deck. Peril has limited usefulness unless you can reasonably risk only getting one minion out and will be able to keep him alive with an extra vitality.
Minions are pretty expensive and can't overwhelm for crowd control as sauron has no pumps outside of the sword. Might want to look at putting in some anti-6 minions like the gate veteran, otherwise ballooning is going to be the way to out run the shadow.
Gloin should be Thrarin, SoE (12U13) so I shouldn't have started him, but it didn't affect things much. Might have made a difference in some skirmishes if I had played him later, but a good trial none the less. Plains of Rohan doesn't work. Only 4 dwarf companions in the deck and you have to spot a dwarf to play 2 of them so unless we add a dwarf guard or something to allow a Thrarin, SoE/ Dwarf Guard pull Gimli start, the site will need to be changed.
The Dwarves and Gandalf would have a really hard time doubling until Gimli and Thrarin get set up. The limited Frodo protection makes moving with much twilight out there really risky.
The ball is rolling! It's great seeing that the play testing has generated some interest among the community as well.
Regarding these decks, I think it was either you or Euk that mentioned The Number Must Be Few might be a better card to use than Peril.
In theory I guess they are both supposed to act as a hindrance to the double move. TNMBF in a direct way and Peril in an indirect way. Since this deck might struggle with a person who sets up their fellowship very fast and just runs before they can get enough conditions down, TNMBF would be a way to balance this, since the deck doesn't have an Enquea. As this addresses the large fellowship problem, it might be a way to kill two birds with one stone.
I completely missed the Plains or Rohan thing...unless they pull another unbound companion from a booster pack you can't effectively use it. Western Emyn Muil might be an option...
Since the shadow for this deck has a strategy that somewhat relies on the conditions, (something you don't often see until serie 2 or 3 in prior existing starters), as opposed to a base blob of minions to get you going, we could also test it with the "Hate and Arrows" deck. I rebuilt a deck to try it that way just to see what happens, replacing a couple cards for two more orcs in the deck.
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I have to say though, thus far, overall there have not been too many blow-outs or clear and obvious advantages one way or another.
So far I have both won and lost to the Gimli/Gandalf deck, and had a close game against the Easterling deck with the Three Hunters. Mirror matches have been pretty productive in weeding out situations that would lead to stalemate or blowout games.
I think we're really locking in on our Serie 1 options :)
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Legion vs. Merrick_H Dwarf/Gandalf & Sauron wounding Mirror match
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$3tvnkx7kq8a3pqn4
Essentially came down to who got teeth and Sleep first.
Peril does nothing. Suggest removing one for TNMBF and another for A Host Avails little to go along with the wounding theme (good suggestion Legion). Also suggest replacing the pillagers with Orc Runners and one Swordsman with a Gate Veteran.
New Shadow List:
Shadow Draw Deck:
2x Orc Assassin
2x Orc Butcher
3x Orc Cutthroat
2x Orc Insurgent
1x Orc Patrol
2x Orc Pillager
3x Orc Scouting Band
3x Orc Swordsman (-1)
3x Orc Scimitar
2x I'd Make You Squeak
2x Peril
2x Teeth of Mordor
3x Under the Watching Eye
+2 Orc Runner
+1 Gate Veteran
+1 The Number Must Be Few
+1 A Host Avails Little
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dmaz vs. Merrick_H - Gandwarf/Archery vs. Three Hunters/Uruks
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$goc7j09y8w2yz8ju
Good draws seriously screwed the three hunters deck early. The archery and wounding output was huge, mostly from One of You Must Do This. It was suggested to drop it to 1 and exchange it with 1 Cloud of Arrows. Some of the effectiveness was due to the multi-culture nature of the fellowship in the three hunters deck, but I also suspect that with only 6 companions and the limited healing, vitality is going to be a big issue with this deck vs wounding (sauron tracker grind/archery). I also think that we will want to make sure that we make it impossible to choose both the grind and archery decks as the interactions will be a bit extreme which means that they will have to be offered in the same series.
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Updated Hate and Arrows, as an alternative option to go with the Gandwarfs
4x Uruk Crossbow Troop
4x Uruk Crossbowman
4x Goblin Bowman
3x Goblin Runner
3x Goblin Marksman
2x Moria Archer Troop
2x Hate and Anger
2x Cloud of Arrows
2x Host of Thousands
2x Saruman's Ambition
2x They Are Coming
Dropped the Saruman's Power (not necessarily needed) and one of the Hate and Anger for two Marksmen. Having x2 Hate and Anger already does a decent job of cycling, with x3 you might be able to draw a lot of cards, but the deck was a little light in minions so you might not draw into more minions.
Dropped a Moria Archer Troop. x3 was a little too powerful. Even without winning any skirmishes, against the common ring there were a lot of wounds going out.
One of You Must Do This switched for Cloud of Arrows.
Site adjustments to the norm:
Site 1: Western Emyn Muil (since you can't play Gimli without including Dwarf Guards)
Site 9: Orthanc Library (the shadow side isn't really desperate for twilight, but if you run a fat deck - and you probably want it to be a little heavye with those They Are Coming - this site nine might hinder a quick 7 to 9 double)
I kept Helm's Gate instead of Deep of Helm...the shadow didn't really feel like it needed the twilight boost, and its not exactly on theme. We have use a site that helps the fellowship side.
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bigredmf vs. Merrick_H - Three Hunters Mirror Match
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$9v7ihnu9uqqoo0ss
These feel pretty balanced vs. each other. The fellowship seems pretty fragile if you can't get Legolas support. Yet again, Dwarf Axe adds randomness and gorn saves the day with his natural defender +1. Shadow seems a little heavy and we might want to swap a Chaser for a Searcher as the Searcher is the hard hitter in the deck.
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It's interesting seeing the game from the other side. I can see during the middle of the game you did have a fair number of tracker conditions clogging your hand. Weary doesn't need a minion to play, but there will certainly be draws like that with 8 conditions in the deck. I managed to pull most of them early but came up short on minions late game. Overall I think the decks played each other pretty well, like you said. I'm eager to see it against other decks.
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Proposed Pairings Thus Far:
Serie 1:
Ringbound/Easterlings
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Gandwarf/Hate and Arrows OR Sauron
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland
Unbound Rangers/Twilight Nazgul
Look to My Coming/Berserkers
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Sauron OR Archery OR ?
Hobbit Hospital featuring Nurse Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Hard Choice OR Last Alliance OR Ents OR?/Moria OR Stupid Swarm OR ?
Lots to think about here.
After REALLY contemplating what to do with serie 2, I think these provide a significant balance and don't present an absolute easy choice.
You would have the option to dive in with corruption, but not get the strong benefits of the Knights if you do so. Picking Ringbound then UB Ranger, while each unique, would have a little redundancy, so you would mostly be gaining pumps and alternate rangers to choose from rather than new techniques. That and you would not be guaranteed a Rohan companion to deal with Kings Room, which will be introduced. This was the best way I could think of that would punish the choice for Easterling then Twilight a little.
Look to My Coming is the Rohan/Gandalf deck.
If you look at the incentives in options for pairings there is a decent amount of variation:
1. Picking Three Hunters and you would have reasons to combine with Knights or Rangers for fellowship support, OR you could pick Look to My Coming to develop a strong Uruk deck.
2. Picking Ringbound to start would give you incentive to choose from both Knights for that strong Boromir (who is also a ringbound ranger) and the fortifications OR the UB Rangers for Shadow combination.
3. Picking Gandwarf to start and you might want to pick Look to My Coming based on the Gandalf dynamics, OR another deck depending on the shadow we end up choosing for it.
This helps keep things from there being ONE defined path. It is more about balancing the decision between have a strong shadow or a strong fellowship, which is good.
What I think we really need help figuring out is what to do with the Gandwarf deck and the Sauron/Archery decks. That and figure out the other themes for the third serie.
My best idea would be, as Merrick suggested, to keep Sauron and Archery in the same serie to prevent the combination of two VERY powerful strategies.
We could decide on a new shadow to implement with the Gandwarf deck and put Sauron or Archery with Shoulder to Shoulder, and the other with Hard Choice (Aragorn and Aragorn Signet Rohan companions) or another option.
What do you guys think?
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The shadows of RB Rangers and UB Rangers decks can corrupt very well, or kill with Nazgul Sword, or... It's an easy choice. King's Room exerts only unbound comps, so RB Rangers would be protected... and you can use Pathfinder to play any other site.
Gandwarf has no signets to use Trust Me, and blows it with Sleep Caradhras...
I still think there should be 4 started deck choices in Serie 1, just as War of the Ring Sealed has 4. Rohan should be that 4th deck, as 4th set is the core for Rohan culture, and as it is the path where unbound companions travel in the book/movie...
Rohan deck can couple very well with Knights or UB Rangers... and Naith Shoulders (Naith Elves merged with Shoulder to Shoulder) should be in Serie 2. That leaves more space for other themes-decks we are excluding (or ignoring)...
Hobbit Hospital requires rare cards, otherwise Sam would be the only user of it... that would wreck any corruption deck.
Gandalf isn't included in those decks, except for few cards in Gandwarf and Look to my Coming... His events and tricks deserve a deck for himself alone.
My conclusion is... we shouldn't conclude anything by now. Serie 1 is the farthest we can look right now, as we have complete decks to fill that Serie, and we can conjecture good combinations with decks in Serie 2 (excluding OP ones)...
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Nothing is concluded yet :)
We have had some good playtesting so far and have gotten close to final decisions on at least two decks. This is pretty good for not being into October yet I think!
It looks like both you and Merrick have some ideas that could kill two birds with one stone, actually!
We want the Sauron deck and Archery decks to be in the same serie if possible
It would be nice to have the choice of Rohan in Serie 1
What if we made a third deck for Serie 1 which was some new kind of Rohan strategy and the Sauron deck?
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Gandwarf has no signets to use Trust Me, and blows it with Sleep Caradhras...
The Gandwarf deck probably doesn't need any more support by way of combinations for the Serie 2 Gandalf deck. We have already seen how strong those dwarf tanks can be by themselves...Adding a Frodo, Gandalf and Gimli with the Gandalf signet to use trust me would be them pretty crazy strong.
Hobbit Hospital requires rare cards, otherwise Sam would be the only user of it... that would wreck any corruption deck.
Really there's only Farmer Maggot. Also, people have already worked a little on a Hobbit Hospital Hybrid that doesn't require rares. It might be a fun option for Serie 3 if someone wants to combine it to a deck they made with Wingfoot from the UB Rangers deck. Also the deck could feature a shadow that provides x2 Saruman, SotE (Isengard Men) so it would combine VERY well with the three hunters deck from Serie 1. This would make the choice of Shoulder to Shoulder a less obvious one. I'm almost tempted to suggest having the Shoulder to Shoulder deck carry an odd man out shadow, so that it's less of an obvious choice. You can get a good fellowship strategy but your shadow strategy might suffer.
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I don't see a Southron shadow, unless the archery is serie 3 is Southron. A lot of wasted Raider card pulls if there isn't a Southron theme. However TTT uses wounding/swarmy Southron and Movie uses archery so there really isn't anything left. I looked at site control but Southrons really don't do anything with sites outside of Southron Archer, which is rare. Other than super twilight adding which could be used for skirmish wounding, not sure what else to do with Southrons. Not real helpful but just wanted to throw it out there.
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Nothing is concluded yet :)
We have had some good playtesting so far and have gotten close to final decisions on at least two decks. This is pretty good for not being into October yet I think!
It looks like both you and Merrick have some ideas that could kill two birds with one stone, actually!
We want the Sauron deck and Archery decks to be in the same serie if possible
It would be nice to have the choice of Rohan in Serie 1
What if we made a third deck for Serie 1 which was some new kind of Rohan strategy and the Sauron deck?
That 4th deck is what we need... but Look to my Coming must be assembled in order to make possible a good match against that Sauron, and that's the most powerful shadow I think... It's NOT an imposible task, of course!
Several Well Stored with Weland and Guma... or several copies of Let Us Be Swift...
By the way, I prefer to kill 2 orcs with one flying axe... ;)
I vote YES.
Post Data: I just mentioned that point of Gandwarves to say those Gandalf themes cannot be connected... Gandalf needs a deck for himself alone as centerpiece.
IMO Southrons should be in Serie 2, with mounts and maybe archery...
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I don't see a Southron shadow, unless the archery is serie 3 is Southron. A lot of wasted Raider card pulls if there isn't a Southron theme. However TTT uses wounding/swarmy Southron and Movie uses archery so there really isn't anything left. I looked at site control but Southrons really don't do anything with sites outside of Southron Archer, which is rare. Other than super twilight adding which could be used for skirmish wounding, not sure what else to do with Southrons. Not real helpful but just wanted to throw it out there.
THIS could be the deck we need to combine with Shoulder to Shoulder maybe...
There wasn't a whole lot of interest in Southrons and no suggestions for them until now.
We could try to come up with a deck that is a little different than the BoHD Starter of Mounts and wounders...but like you said the options are low.
The most unique thing I could think of would be combining Southron Invaders with some of the set 6 southrons that cost -X when you can spot a southron. Has LITTLE bit of a swarm factor and throw in Howl of Harad and a bunch of Whirling Strikes to capitalize on the TONS of ambush you will have. Could have something there anyway.
Since Shoulder to Shoulder is a really strong fellowship strategy it might be a good idea to combine it with this, since this shadow wouldn't really mesh perfectly with any other shadow, since it involves spotting, thus Southron dedication.
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That 4th deck is what we need... but Look to my Coming must be assembled in order to make possible a good match against that Sauron, and that's the most powerful shadow I think... It's NOT an imposible task, of course!
Several Well Stored with Weland and Guma... or several copies of Let Us Be Swift...
So we keep Look to My Coming in Serie 2 with the Bersekers and develop some kind of new deck theme for Rohan in Serie 1.
This would broaden the options for deck combinations. Rohan or Gandwarf with Look to My Coming. Sounds pretty cool :)
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As a general statement too:
When we look at the decks lined up, there might SEEM like there is an obvious choice. Example: I will just go corruption all of the way with Easterlings/Nazgul/X.
However, remember (and this is why I love sealed so much) that you might pull an Eomer, Third Marshal of Riddermark and Firefoot in your boosters. Or you might pull a Ranged Commander and Weapons of Isengard.
We do the best we can to provide a variety of combination options with the starter decks, but there's always the booster pulls that come into play. You NEVER know :)
ADDED: I think it is good to keep Rohan Fellowship out of the corruption-themed decks to make a little bit of a handicap for going that route. There are a LOT of good Rohan rares, uncommons and commons that help quite a bit with the TT site path, so depending on your booster pulls you could end up getting compelled to branch out from one path.
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From a project management perspective here is what we need to do:
- Nail down the deck types that we want to have for both shadow and fellowship
- Determine what series we would like to see the various halves in so that we limit, or create the obvious "best paths" to take e.g. Corruption/Nazgul, Archery/grind, Hobbits/wingfoot, Rohan/Gandalf
- Pair deck halves that will work well together
- Build decks as possible and play test
We need to start locking down cards so that we can playtest. I'll see if I can get Marcin to create a format that has all cards available and uses towers sites and call it "Towers Standard Sealed". That way we can make the decks with the actual cards we want to use and then limit it later to the sets that we actually wind up using. I don't particularly want to use very many cards outside of sets 1-6, but there have been some very good and balanced suggestions thus far that I would like to consider for use in the starters.
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Revised Towers Standard would be better imo.
Out of curiosity: what are the out of format cards that you think are balanced?
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Knight's Mount was a really good one. The Far Harad Mercenaries seems pretty good as well. Farin, SOE is a solid Dwarf companion.
Cards that round out a theme without overpowering for the environment.
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Yeah, I agree.
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Nothing is concluded yet :)
We have had some good playtesting so far and have gotten close to final decisions on at least two decks. This is pretty good for not being into October yet I think!
It looks like both you and Merrick have some ideas that could kill two birds with one stone, actually!
We want the Sauron deck and Archery decks to be in the same serie if possible
It would be nice to have the choice of Rohan in Serie 1
What if we made a third deck for Serie 1 which was some new kind of Rohan strategy and the Sauron deck?
That 4th deck is what we need... but Look to my Coming must be assembled in order to make possible a good match against that Sauron, and that's the most powerful shadow I think... It's NOT an imposible task, of course!
Several Well Stored with Weland and Guma... or several copies of Let Us Be Swift...
By the way, I prefer to kill 2 orcs with one flying axe... ;)
I vote YES.
Post Data: I just mentioned that point of Gandwarves to say those Gandalf themes cannot be connected... Gandalf needs a deck for himself alone as centerpiece.
IMO Southrons should be in Serie 2, with mounts and maybe archery...
I would propose a rohan allies/well stored deck for series 1 that is just rohan to pair with the Sauron Trackers/Grind
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I would propose a rohan allies/well stored deck for series 1 that is just rohan to pair with the Sauron Trackers/Grind
That was my general take on it as well. Pretty straightforward and solid.
I'm a little busy this evening but I'll be back to address some of the things you brought up.
We have a general path for pairing, and now if we decide to include Rohan in Serie 1 (I'm ok with the legwork for playtesting a little more) this could potentially lock down Serie 1 so that we just need to define the specific card changes through a little more play-testing.
I've already started building the proposed serie 2 decks, and will post them soon to confirm that they are more or less what everyone was envisioning, and get any last feedback before playtesting them.
Thanks again for all the hard work guys!
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Just as an FYI, I'm keeping the first post of this updated with the latest and greatest deck lists, proposed ideas and such so that people can have a single place to go to look for the latest information and don't have to sift through 15 pages in three different threads to keep up with all the changes and proposals.
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As an alternative to creating a new card pool, perhaps we could just test them under pre-shadows multipath? I realize there still may be 1 or 2 cards that are post movie.
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Several replays below, all dmaz vs. Merrick_H
The first three are Dwarves & Gandalf/Archery vs. Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$eg8vtf50f7vwy0a4
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$y6hmqf84dyvzcvbz
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$lc8mdak3fab70d0d
If the free people's player moves too quickly, the archery will kill them. The trackers did decently vs the Gandalf/Dwarf deck as they couldn't clear the board, but the double sleeps (fetched with Barliman) made their conditions hard to stay on the table. Rohan can skirmish and heal, so it is an interesting deck and should be able to do pretty well. Quite possibly the strongest free people's side.
Remaining 2 games are Ringbound/Easterlings & Gollum vs. Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$937b36lzprhe2s3l
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$dtw4ae6y909od19y
Both won by the RB, once due to poor shadow draws, the other time due to the lack of having a sword on frodo making it VERY risky to run. Frodo got to 8 burdens so corruption is a very real danger. Good games.
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Only the first replay worked
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Regarding the proposed shadows
Rohirrim Traitors
Grima, SoG x3
Unferth, GB x3
Rohirrim Traitor x4
Saruman, SotE x3
Isengard Retainer x2
Isengard Servant x2
Isengard Smith x2
Isengard Worker x2
Desertion x4
Twisted Tales
Men Will Fall x4
Might I suggest One of You Must Do This, Wizard Storm, and/or Abandoning Reason for Madness? Potential to remove 1 SotE and maybe either 1 Desertion or Men Will Fall?
Southrons
3x Desert Warrior
3x Southron Bowman
1x Southron Commander
3x Southron Invaders
3x Southron Marcher
3x Southron Runner
3x Southron Traveler
2x Far Harad Mercenaries
2x Mumak
2x Southron Spear
2x On the March
3x Whirling Strike
This seems to be in line with what I was thinking. It seems to have the tools to do the job, the only thing left is to test and see if it can stand up to the FP!
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I really like the fact that we have basically covered every subculture on both the shadow side (with the exception of site control and wargs) and the fellowship side (with the exception of Ents), which means booster pulls in general should at least have a deck they could call home.
Since it looks like we haven't decided on the last deck yet I have a couple suggestions that hadn't been mentioned.
Is there any interest in a good old pipeweed deck? I know there already is one in Revised Movie, so I understand if this doesn't take off. But put it in Serie 3 and you've already had the opportunity to get Gimli, Gandalf The Grey Pilgrim, Aragorn, and several Hobbits to make use of pipes, and some players may find it a good good pairing with some of the swarm-y shadows to allow larger deck sizes.
You could also consider making a deck centered around Aragorn signets (maybe that is what the Hard Choice deck is?) or Theoden signets. And finally Elven telepathy.
For shadow, I don't think it would be real fun to have a Nazgul blade-tip/black breath deck in the mix, plus there already is one in Revised Movie. Perhaps a standard uruk-hai deck? We do already have Moria swarm on the list as a potential candidate, it would probably pair well with pipeweed.
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Replay of Merrick_H vs bigredmf, Rohan/Sauron vs Gandwarf/Archery:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=bigredmf$9wh10l8v1ui5jhaq
Rohan had no problems winning skirmishes, and handled the archery fairly well with healing. Only a couple extra archery at the last 3 sites would have been enough to stop Rohan though. Gandwarf handled Sauron pretty decently, but failed to draw Barliman to clear the conditions near the end.
Suggestion: since FP/shadow pairings are being made based on what each FP is strong against, why shouldn't the Gandwarf deck keep the Sauron trackers and the Rohan deck take the archery shadow? Gandwarf is the only deck that can discard conditions.
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Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Eowyn, Lady of Rohan
2x Theoden, Lord of the Mark
2x Rider of Rohan
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Armor
1x Brego
3x Rider's Mount
2x Rider's Spear (-1)
1x Herugrim
1x Eomer's Spear
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Well Stored
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Noble Intentions
2x Fight for the Villagers
2x Work for the Sword
+2x An Honorable Charge
I'm thinking that the Rohan deck skirmishes just a little too well. I think that the weapons are the main issue. I think that it would be best to remove weapons, likely Eomer's Spear and a rider's spear. I'd replace them with 2 "An Honorable Charge" That still gives them some skirmishing power, but not the permanent that the two additional weapons give.
Also, bigredmf and I thought that we might want to swap the shadow pairings and do:
Rohan Allies/Archery
Gandwarf/Sauron
Thoughts?
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Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Eowyn, Lady of Rohan
2x Theoden, Lord of the Mark
2x Rider of Rohan
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Armor
1x Brego
3x Rider's Mount
2x Rider's Spear (-1)
1x Herugrim
1x Eomer's Spear
2x Hobbit Sword
2x Well Stored
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Noble Intentions
2x Fight for the Villagers
2x Work for the Sword
+2x An Honorable Charge
I'm thinking that the Rohan deck skirmishes just a little too well. I think that the weapons are the main issue. I think that it would be best to remove weapons, likely Eomer's Spear and a rider's spear. I'd replace them with 2 "An Honorable Charge" That still gives them some skirmishing power, but not the permanent that the two additional weapons give.
Also, bigredmf and I thought that we might want to swap the shadow pairings and do:
Rohan Allies/Archery
Gandwarf/Sauron
Thoughts?
It may also be worth swapping Stables out for Throne Room. This would slow down the horses a tad.
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Good point bigred...Throne Room would be a better option since this is first serie..don't want them to set up the horses too fast.
Do you think only 3 weapons is too little? Maybe just dropping Eomer's spear would be sufficient.
Of course...even if they aren't winning every skirmish they can still heal a couple guys the next turn so there is that too...
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I like the suggestions!
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Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Gandalf & Dwarves/Moria & Isengard Archery
Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Unbound Rangers/Twilight Nazgul
Gandalf & Rohan/Berserkers
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Hard Choice OR Last Alliance OR Ents OR?/Moria OR Stupid Swarm OR ?
I also suggest limiting the deck choices to 3 per series. So pushing one deck from series 1 to series 3 should do the trick. The format isn't that rich to ensure originality within the decks and have a high number of them available.
I'm also against any kind of swarm in this meta. Stupid Swarm is too easy to do with RotEL and EoF and no Pan available. Also, not a deck that should be possible in Sealed. The Sauron swarm in TT Sealed is bad enough as it is. Stupid Swarm would be no different. I think we have a good variety of decks already and should now work on the schedule. I'd be for either Rohan or Easterlings to move to S3.
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Moving Easterlings might make the most sense. Gollum cards don't show up until Serie 2, so would at least give some booster pulls to aid decision making rather than pulling a Gollum after you've already passed on him in Serie 1.
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UBRangers and Twilight Nazgul
Frodo, SoD
Arwen, Elven Rider x2
Aragorn, Wingfoot x2
Boromir, Defender of Minas Tirith x2
Faramir, SoD x2
Merry, From O'er the Brandywine x2
Bounder
Asfaloth
Athelas x2
Boromir's Gauntlets
Ranger's Sword
Sword of Gondor x2
Hobbit Sword x2 (cut x1 Frying pan for the other sword)
Defiance
Dagger Strike
Gondor's Vengeance
Might of Numenor
Swordsman of the Northern Kingdom x3
Severed His Bonds
No Stranger to the Shadows (stand-in card of answering the cries for testing)
Morgul Skulker x2
Wisp of Pale Sheen x3
The Witch King, Deathless Lord x2
Ulaire Attea, The Easterling x3
Ulaire Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Ulaire Nertea, Winged Hunter x2
Ulaire Otsea, Ringwraith in Twilight x3
Fell Beast x2
Nazgul Sword x2
It Wants to Be Found x3
Threshold of Shadow x3
Blade Tip x2
Site Path:
Rocks of Emyn Muil
Plains of Rohan Camp
Barrows of Edoras
White Rocks
Hornburg Courtyard
Hornburg Armory
Hornburg Causeway
Nan Curunir
Caverns of Isengard
I spent probably the most time tweaking this deck, and looking several times at all of the options.
Things I know could be debated would be the including of Asfaloth (figured since it was serie 2, only 1 copy, and arwen doesn't get a sword, it could be OK. This card appears in the Movie Sealed and it was fine), and also a possible issue with It Wants to Be Found. While we can test-play this, it might create a VERY easy burden adding deck if simply combined with the exert to add easterlings. If it looks too powerful these can always be swapped for Resistance Becomes Unbearable, as it facilitates eventual burdens on the Ringbearer.
I originally had Faramir, Ithilien Ranger so that you could have two starting fellowship options (Boromir-Merry or Faramir-Arwen) but he's been provided in Serie 1 already.
DurinsHeir - the reason you originally were pushing for all of those ranger cards in the Knights deck was for coupling of the Serie 1 Ringbound deck and the Knight deck, i.e. there needs to be rangers so that it fits well. However, it fits well just as a Knight deck...and like we've been mentioning, we don't want their to be an obvious choice. Having Knights be Knights and Rangers be Rangers goes along with the spirit of Starter Decks much more. We can let people choose, then customize them the way they want.
I'm not suggesting too many changes to the current Knight deck, just to have it make more sense. Faramir could be switched for Dervorin or another generic non-knight Gondor companion, New Errand should be switched with Take Cover, and Gondor's Vengeance can be easily switched for another regroup event (Reckless Counter). In any case a Knight deck should thrive on fortifications. 1 Citadel of the Stars, but you can have up to 4 City Wall.
I'm trying to imagine what it would look like in Sealed and I feel like people would be less enchanted with a weird hybrid deck. I know I would.
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Answering the Cries is pretty useless with only one Tale to discard. That NSTTS is way better.
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Answering the Cries is pretty useless with only one Tale to discard. That NSTTS is way better.
It's just a stand-in for No Stranger to the Shadows, not actually going to use it.
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@BigredMF
I liked the idea of dropping a Servant of the Eye for Wizard Storm in the Rohirrim Traitor deck
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Answering the Cries is pretty useless with only one Tale to discard. That NSTTS is way better.
It's just a stand-in for No Stranger to the Shadows, not actually going to use it.
You wrote it the other way around ^^
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Answering the Cries is pretty useless with only one Tale to discard. That NSTTS is way better.
It's just a stand-in for No Stranger to the Shadows, not actually going to use it.
You wrote it the other way around ^^
:whistle:
hehe...ignore the first one. Meant to be NSTTS like in the Movie Sealed deck
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Well, Bill covers NSTTS. And if you don't have a Ranger, don't play it.
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true, that would work more or less..you could put it on Merry instead of Frodo so that it kept its more temporal aspect.
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Good point bigred...Throne Room would be a better option since this is first serie..don't want them to set up the horses too fast.
Do you think only 3 weapons is too little? Maybe just dropping Eomer's spear would be sufficient.
Of course...even if they aren't winning every skirmish they can still heal a couple guys the next turn so there is that too...
I'd say that 2 weapons should be plenty. The original Theoden starter had no weapons at all.
The swap to throne room is good to slow down the horses a little and make it so that site 4 doesn't hurt the Rohan deck as much as others.
The problem with moving Easterlings to Series 3 is that then ALL of your Raider culture decks are in series 3. I would probably suggest the following re-arrangement:
Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Gandalf & Dwarves/Moria & Isengard Archery
Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Unbound Rangers/Twilight Nazgul
Gandalf & Rohan/Berserkers
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
The reason for moving the Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers to Series 3 is that all three of the fellowships seem more experimental and fragile in series 3. By this time you should have decent companions, but it is not guaranteed. This way you have to choose whether you fill in your fellowship with Elves/Dwarves, Hobbits or A REALLY good Aragorn (Def+1 is huge).
It allows us to have good representation of the shadows early (sauron, moria, isengard archery, some Raider). Series 2 picks up the themes that were established in Mines and Battle (Berserkers, Dunland Discard, Twilight Nazgul). Series 3 fills in interesting strategies with the first guaranteed Commander and additional Southron support and two additional fairly heavily condition dependent strategies. This also keeps the major abuse from grind decks at a minimum. The only major down side I see is that it does leave the pairing of Twilight Nazgul and Easterlings possible, but it is hard to add burdens vs. Ringbound, so there is a bit of a natural balance.
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I modified the Knight/Dunland Deck to have Ring of Isengard rather than Wizard's Vale. Seems like a much better fit.
We also need to cut a card from the knight side to make it 30 cards (currently 31) I'd recommend Gondor will see it done or a city wall to take it to 3 City wall.
Also need to add another card to the Twilight Nazgul Shadow. As proposed it is only 29 cards.
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I count 30 cards with the Twilight Nazgul. One less City Gates would be fine if we go for the "rule of 3".
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I see. There was a copying error. I have fixed it and we should be good to go in the main deck list.
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I would suggest we swap some pairings in Serie 2 to prevent the "easy" choice of Rangers/Corruption in Serie 1 and then Ranger/Corruption in Serie 2, or Rohan/Exertion in Serie 1 and Rohan/Berserkers in Serie 2. I realize the rangers aren't quite the same but many cards work in both decks. The Revised Movie decks were set up in a clever way so as to not allow you synergy with BOTH free peoples AND shadow from Serie to Serie. I would suggest the following Serie 2 pairings:
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
UB Ranger/Berserker
Knights/Dunland
That way if you want corruption and nazgul OR archery/grind and berserkers your FP choices don't overlap.
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Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Gandalf & Dwarves/Moria & Isengard Archery
Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Unbound Rangers/Twilight Nazgul
Gandalf & Rohan/Berserkers
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
The reason for moving the Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers to Series 3 is that all three of the fellowships seem more experimental and fragile in series 3. By this time you should have decent companions, but it is not guaranteed. This way you have to choose whether you fill in your fellowship with Elves/Dwarves, Hobbits or A REALLY good Aragorn (Def+1 is huge).
It allows us to have good representation of the shadows early (sauron, moria, isengard archery, some Raider). Series 2 picks up the themes that were established in Mines and Battle (Berserkers, Dunland Discard, Twilight Nazgul). Series 3 fills in interesting strategies with the first guaranteed Commander and additional Southron support and two additional fairly heavily condition dependent strategies. This also keeps the major abuse from grind decks at a minimum. The only major down side I see is that it does leave the pairing of Twilight Nazgul and Easterlings possible, but it is hard to add burdens vs. Ringbound, so there is a bit of a natural balance.
I think this is good and will be fine.
If it feels like the burden power of twilight nazgul and easterlings is too much, we can easily swap the three IWTBF with Resistance Becomes Unbearable. This would still make it possible to combine them, but would require more dedication for one strategy or the other.
Really, the only thing I still find goofy is that the knight deck has so much Ranger stuff in it, when we already have Ranger decks. I think we should just swap them for comparable Knight cards. There's really no reason not to.
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How about this then?
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
3x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
1x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Fall Back
1x Might of Numenor
3x War Must Be
2x Sentinels of Numenor
2x Hobbit Intuition
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
1x Ithilien Trap
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How about this then?
2x Boromir, Steward's Heir
3x Gondorian Knight
1x Turgon, Man of Belfalas
1x Armor
1x Banner of Westernesse
2x Knight's Mount
3x Sword of Gondor
1x Hobbit Sword
1x Elendil's Valor
1x Fall Back
1x Might of Numenor
3x War Must Be
2x Sentinels of Numenor
2x Hobbit Intuition
1x Citadel of the Stars
3x City Wall
1x Garrison of Osgiliath
1x Ithilien Trap
I'm for it. Everything is potentially playable now :)
If we end up finding we need to pull out any cards after playtesting this, we could always go with a Reckless Counter or something quasi-useful.
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I would suggest we swap some pairings in Serie 2 to prevent the "easy" choice of Rangers/Corruption in Serie 1 and then Ranger/Corruption in Serie 2, or Rohan/Exertion in Serie 1 and Rohan/Berserkers in Serie 2. I realize the rangers aren't quite the same but many cards work in both decks. The Revised Movie decks were set up in a clever way so as to not allow you synergy with BOTH free peoples AND shadow from Serie to Serie. I would suggest the following Serie 2 pairings:
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
UB Ranger/Berserker
Knights/Dunland
That way if you want corruption and nazgul OR archery/grind and berserkers your FP choices don't overlap.
I like this idea and think it would be good to look into. I'd like to get the thoughts of others though before making the changes.
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I would suggest we swap some pairings in Serie 2 to prevent the "easy" choice of Rangers/Corruption in Serie 1 and then Ranger/Corruption in Serie 2, or Rohan/Exertion in Serie 1 and Rohan/Berserkers in Serie 2. I realize the rangers aren't quite the same but many cards work in both decks. The Revised Movie decks were set up in a clever way so as to not allow you synergy with BOTH free peoples AND shadow from Serie to Serie. I would suggest the following Serie 2 pairings:
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
UB Ranger/Berserker
Knights/Dunland
That way if you want corruption and nazgul OR archery/grind and berserkers your FP choices don't overlap.
I like this idea and think it would be good to look into. I'd like to get the thoughts of others though before making the changes.
The only thing it would change would be the standard starter deck dynamic of each deck having a fellowship that plays well against its own shadow. I don't know if there's a reason for Decipher doing this, but it's always been this way....
I'm actually kind of curious to see if anyone knows why they might have done that?
Could it have been a marketing ploy just to get people to buy more decks if, for instance, each person had an Aragorn TT deck, and were tired of every match being a stalemate?
I sometimes try to figure out everything Decipher did from a logical gaming perspective and then need to remember a lot of their decisions were made based on the almighty dollar haha.
Anyway, doing it differently; the way you suggested, BigRedMF, might foster even more variation in peoples' deck choices.
For example, if someone is worried about their deck getting squashed by twilight Nazgul in serie 2, they might say "shucks, I better take the UB Ranger deck because it has ways of handling that".
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Well truthfully I think Rangers would play better against Berserkers than Rohan - since Rohan exerts Berserkers and makes them stronger. Neither Rohan nor Rangers really help much against corruption, so I don't know which fellowship would actually be considered "strong" against Twilight Nazgul.
In Revised Movie you have Rohan/Shire paired with Nazgul. Rohan has no way of dealing with Nazgul conditions but they like to fight fierce minions with vitality - would be the same with Twilight Nazzies.
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Well truthfully I think Rangers would play better against Berserkers than Rohan - since Rohan exerts Berserkers and makes them stronger. Neither Rohan nor Rangers really help much against corruption, so I don't know which fellowship would actually be considered "strong" against Twilight Nazgul.
In Revised Movie you have Rohan/Shire paired with Nazgul. Rohan has no way of dealing with Nazgul conditions but they like to fight fierce minions with vitality - would be the same with Twilight Nazzies.
I added some elements to the UB Ranger deck that would make it better against Twilight Nazgul corruption: Those versions of Frodo and Arwen, as well as the two Athelas for the Blade Tips.
Like you said, the Rohan would have a tough time against both. I tested Fortress Never Fallen, and we agree the cost is too small and its too easy to use to have in a starter, so the Rohan dudes will have to overcome the way they are built to do in the starters - winning skirmishes.
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With your suggestion, BigRedMF, here's what our serie 1 and 2 look like then.
Serie 1:
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Gandalf & Dwarves/Moria & Isengard Archery
Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
We've done quite a bit of testing for those Serie 1 decks, and made some changes to every deck.
We can still test them a little more, but we could also dive into testing some of the Serie 2 decks against each other soon.
The only lists not currently on this threat are the Rohan and Berserker decks. They've been developed on the other thread for a little while now, though. Here's a draft of the deck, trying to combine all of the proposed ideas:
Valiant Rohirrim
Frodo, Mr. Underhill
Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund x2
Theoden, King of the Golden Hall x2
Household Guard x2
Gandalf, The White Wizard x2
Guma, Plains Farmer
Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
Brego
Horse of Rohan x2
Herugrim x2
Rider's Spear x2
Rohirrim Bow x2
Hobbit Sword x2
Wizard Staff
Trust Me As You Once Did x2
Parapet
Well Stored
Let Us Be Swift
An Honorable Charge x2
Notes: It was suggested to use Horse of Rohan instead of Rider's Mount. Since it's serie 2, and decks are now being combined, this would allow you to have a couple mounts to play on Gandy, your Elves, or other Gondor men. Less pumps in this one due to Trust Me as You Once Did. Well stored added for a little ally healing (allies aren't supposed to be the stars of the show, as in the other Rohan deck). No Eomer to try to keep the deck a little toned down for skirmishing power. Because of TMAYOD, less opportunities for base Str 9+ companions is better. In this deck no one should pass base strength 8.
Berserking Uruks
Berserk Rager x2
Uruk-Hai Berserker x4
Uruk Engineer x2
Uruk Sapper x3
Uruk Slayer x2
Uruk Shaman x2
Uruk-hai Raiding Party x3
Broad Bladed Sword x3
Uruk Spear
Battering Ram x2
Siege Engine
Assault Ladder x2
Bred for Battle x3
Black Shapes Crawling
Notes: There wasn't as much talk on this deck as the Rohan. We did drop one Assault Ladder for a Bred for Battle, as it was noted that Assault Ladders can get pretty crazy late game if you have more than 1 or 2. Any additional thoughts on this deck?
I'm considering switching the Siege Engine for a Scaling Ladder just so that if the FP is able to pull together some kind of condition discarding, the engines won't be invincible. That and Berserk Rager would be usable if you're up against mounted rohan...
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With your suggestion, BigRedMF, here's what our serie 1 and 2 look like then.
Serie 1:
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Gandalf & Dwarves/Moria & Isengard Archery
Rohan Allies/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
We've done quite a bit of testing for those Serie 1 decks, and made some changes to every deck.
We can still test them a little more, but we could also dive into testing some of the Serie 2 decks against each other soon.
The only lists not currently on this threat are the Rohan and Berserker decks. They've been developed on the other thread for a little while now, though. Here's a draft of the deck, trying to combine all of the proposed ideas:
Valiant Rohirrim
Frodo, Mr. Underhill
Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund x2
Theoden, King of the Golden Hall x2
Household Guard x2
Gandalf, The White Wizard x2
Guma, Plains Farmer
Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
Brego
Horse of Rohan x2
Herugrim x2
Rider's Spear x2
Rohirrim Bow x2
Hobbit Sword x2
Wizard Staff
Trust Me As You Once Did x2
Parapet
Well Stored
Let Us Be Swift
An Honorable Charge x2
Notes: It was suggested to use Horse of Rohan instead of Rider's Mount. Since it's serie 2, and decks are now being combined, this would allow you to have a couple mounts to play on Gandy, your Elves, or other Gondor men. Less pumps in this one due to Trust Me as You Once Did. Well stored added for a little ally healing (allies aren't supposed to be the stars of the show, as in the other Rohan deck). No Eomer to try to keep the deck a little toned down for skirmishing power. Because of TMAYOD, less opportunities for base Str 9+ companions is better. In this deck no one should pass base strength 8.
Berserking Uruks
Berserk Rager x2
Uruk-Hai Berserker x4
Uruk Engineer x2
Uruk Sapper x3
Uruk Slayer x2
Uruk Shaman x2
Uruk-hai Raiding Party x3
Broad Bladed Sword x3
Uruk Spear
Battering Ram x2
Siege Engine
Assault Ladder x2
Bred for Battle x3
Black Shapes Crawling
Notes: There wasn't as much talk on this deck as the Rohan. We did drop one Assault Ladder for a Bred for Battle, as it was noted that Assault Ladders can get pretty crazy late game if you have more than 1 or 2. Any additional thoughts on this deck?
I'm considering switching the Siege Engine for a Scaling Ladder just so that if the FP is able to pull together some kind of condition discarding, the engines won't be invincible. That and Berserk Rager would be usable if you're up against mounted rohan...
I would nix the LUBS - This is in series 2 and if people go double rohan, having the capability to discard conditions is going to be huge. Granted it requires 3 valiant, but the pumps and healing you get in series 1 will make it VERY hard not to pick up this in conjunction, even if the shadows don't match at all. I'd probably also pull the Parapet. Tokens are going to be hard enough to get as the uruks are still crazy expensive through 4 and healing as well as anti-archery is huge. Couple a shield pull for more healing/anti-archery and Rohan has just about everything except burden removal between these two decks.
The uruks look pretty good. I forgot that all of the good Berserkers were rare. Makes for an interesting deck. Love the Shaman and Slayers in here. Might want to consider dropping an Uruk-Hai Berserker for an Advance Uruk Patrol. Siege engine will turbo-charge the other machines, so we'll want to consider dropping that, but I'd like to leave it in for now. Consider making this deck's anti-6 the Uruk Warrior?
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Maybe swap No Rest For the Weary for the LUBS. Still gives you the Valiant theme, while providing a Rohan version of Elendil's Valor, so to speak.
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Maybe swap No Rest For the Weary for the LUBS. Still gives you the Valiant theme, while providing a Rohan version of Elendil's Valor, so to speak.
That sounds like a good idea. I like the berserker shadow, look forward to testing it.
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I'm afraid No Rest For The Weary is a rare card... :( Maybe Forth Eorlingas! can replace it if there are Theoden signets.
There are only 3 non-rare cards with Valiant dynamics in Towers Block: Sigewulf, Ecglaf and Let Us Be Swift. And the first one is a free trigger for Shotgun Enquea.
I don't see too much problem with 1 copy of Let Us Be Swift, or even 2 as far as Fortress Never Fallen is absent...
We need to understand, the Rohan culture is very redundant as the core is always a skirmish-oriented fellowship... there are some satellital subcultures like allies, valiant men, non fellowship phase possession-playing (Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund, Gamling, Warrior of Rohan, Rohirrim Scout)... but everything EXCEPT for archery (Aldor, Rohirrim Bow, Ecglaf, Eowyn, DoE, Armory, Weapon Store) is always oriented towards heavy skirmishers. And potentially some healing too.
My point is, given that skirmish redundancy, different subcultures can use the same core cards (possessions / skirmish events), THUS to use one valuable deck slot for ally-Rohan alone would be a HUGE waste IMO.
Rohan allies should be merged with Valiant Rohirrim, without Gandalf (that releases 5 card slots on the Valiant deck, usable for ally-mechanics). Those Valiant Rohirrim have Gandalf signets (Eowyn and Theoden), so might couple very well with a Gandalf-centered deck in the 2nd Serie (TMAYOD included). In the 3rd Serie there should be that Hard Choice Rohan/Aragorn deck, which couldn't use Trust Me due to Aragorn signets (unless you build a big deck and want to taste Enquea's Shotgun).
There's a lack of a Gandalf-centered deck. And to have 2 Gondor deck choices in Serie 2 (Knights and UB Rangers) is a mistake IMO, so let UB Rangers be in 3rd Serie and Gandalf take their place in 2nd...
Just some thoughts.
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This is what I mean, for 1st Serie...
Valiant Rohirrim and Villagers deck:
2x Household Guard
2x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall
1x Eomer, Forthwith Banished
1x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Leod, Westfold Herdsman
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Brego
1x Herugrim
2x Horse of Rohan
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Bow
2x Hobbit Sword
2x An Honorable Charge
1x Let Us Be Swift
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Armory
1x Arrow-slits
2x Well Stored
5 Valiant companions, plus Frodo. 5 allies: 2 for healing (Guma and Weland), 2 for skirmish pumping (Hlafwine and Leod) and 1 to recover possessions. 2x Well Stored and Theoden, KotGH to heal allies. 3 mounts, usable by Gondorians, Elves and Gandalf for 'coupling' purposes. 2 skirmish events but 4 pumps (2 reusable allies). 3 hand weapons and 2 ranged ones; Rohirrim Bow may be replayed with Ecglaf in fellowship phase, or with Armory + Theoden/Eowyn in maneuver (for a healing bonus). If there's a problem with so many replays of that direct-wounding card -as could have the Knights/Dunland deck-, may be replaced with Rohirrim Javelin from King Block, or with skirmish pumps (Fight for the Villagers or Work for the Sword).
2x Hobbit Sword and 2x Severed His Bonds for Frodo protection, as the general rule for Serie 1.
Sister-Son of Theoden is out since we need Valiant men; Eomer, Forthwith Banished takes his place. He should be included in the Rohan/Hard Choice deck in 3rd Serie instead, as he has the Aragorn Signet.
It has good skirmish strength, some archery potential and great healing dynamics (Theoden/Eowyn and allies)...
That way we would be 'merging' Rohan Allies with Valiant Men (and indeed Rohan archery) into ONE single deck slot; with potential to 'couple' into Mounted Elves (w/ Naith/Shoulder to Shoulder), Mounted Rangers (w/ UB Rangers) or Mounted Knights (with... Knights! #-o Mix exertions with CotS or Men of Numenor/New Errand :twisted:)... or TMAYOD with a Gandalf Trust Me deck.
That's what we need to do in order to save deck slots for Ents, Gandalf, Smeagol, Last Alliance, Naith Elves, Shoulder to Shoulder and everything else we haven't even mentioned yet.
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I guess it's not entirely clear to me what you are suggesting, so I'll take a stab. You are proposing to merge the 2 Rohan decks together for the 1st Serie, and then create a Gandalf centered Trust deck (without Rohan) for Serie 2? I tend to agree with you that the two Rohan decks overlap quite a bit. If we are finding that the 1st Serie Rohan is very robust, maybe we shouldn't have the second anyway. I like the idea of making the 1st Rohan deck full of Gandalf signets so that people could come up with a Rohan Trust deck if they choose to, but could still have another Trust fellowship from Serie 2.
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I'm pretty fine with the way things are. So far all of the decks have been testing well and it would be counterproductive to go back to the drawing board with so many things. We still have a lot of testing to do with other decks, and then the possibility of inter-serie tests (though may not be completely necessary).
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I guess it's not entirely clear to me what you are suggesting, so I'll take a stab. You are proposing to merge the 2 Rohan decks together for the 1st Serie, and then create a Gandalf centered Trust deck (without Rohan) for Serie 2? I tend to agree with you that the two Rohan decks overlap quite a bit. If we are finding that the 1st Serie Rohan is very robust, maybe we shouldn't have the second anyway. I like the idea of making the 1st Rohan deck full of Gandalf signets so that people could come up with a Rohan Trust deck if they choose to, but could still have another Trust fellowship from Serie 2.
That's exactly what I meant, my friend! Why should we waste 2 deck slots (out of our scarce 9 or 10 available) if the core cards are the same or work the same? Those Gandalf signets were an accident, as those versions are the only Valiant Theoden and the most convenient Valiant Eowyn for this deck. But both aspects of that merging, the Gandalf signets and the emptied deck slot, allow the inclusion of a Gandalf-centered TMAYOD deck, with events like Intimidate or Strength of Spirit, and maybe with Hobbits and Depart Silently (just maybe)... thus making Gandalf a universal possibility instead of a Guru for Rohan people only... or Dwarves.
I'm pretty fine with the way things are. So far all of the decks have been testing well and it would be counterproductive to go back to the drawing board with so many things. We still have a lot of testing to do with other decks, and then the possibility of inter-serie tests (though may not be completely necessary).
There are only 9 deck slots (or 10 if 1st Serie has 4) and we haven't worked on several themes, or left place for them... or even mentioned at all. The merged deck I propose is very similar to those 2 previous Rohan decks (as those are very similar between them ;)), so the testing should behave in a redundant similar way. Or just look at it this way: there were 2 decks to test and now there's only 1, that saves time.
No one has talked about a Wingfoot deck, or Ents + UB hobbits, and there is a significant absense of a Gandalf theme... we need slots for many deck themes (not every single theme, as I know it's impossible) so merging and coupling should be the path to travel.
There are only 6 deck possibilities in Series 2 + 3, and we have some fixed themes as Knights, Naith Elves, UB Rangers and Smeagol + RB Hobbits...
EACH deck slot is really valuable now.
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Berserking Uruks
Berserk Rager x2
Uruk-Hai Berserker x4
Uruk Engineer x2
Uruk Sapper x3
Uruk Slayer x2
Uruk Shaman x2
Uruk-hai Raiding Party x3
Broad Bladed Sword x3
Uruk Spear
Battering Ram x2
Siege Engine
Assault Ladder x2
Bred for Battle x3
Black Shapes Crawling
This deck needs a little improvement: Uruk-Hai Rampage! :twisted:
Berserkers and a fierce mechanism are like bread and butter.
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http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$2k5o8p8m348f4ciq
UB Rangers/Nazgul vs. Dunland/Knights
Made a couple of changes to the knight deck, reflected in the first post.
Also swapped out Wingfoot for King in Exile.
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http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$ypomeb79skw8afyy
UB Rangers vs Rohan
Rohan proved tough against the Nazgul, but had a couple close shaves where 1 pump might have made a big difference.
Uruks seem almost impossible to double against after site 4. Of course, we need to remember these are just starters without the full compliment of companions.
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I saw the last game, and those decks seem pretty strong.
I like the Uruk deck, the rampage allows the use of new twilight added at maneuver (Eowyn/Theoden) or skirmish phases...
I would ditch those Bred for Battle and replace with Ferocity. I know Bred gives +4 to a Berserker, but with those machines they get too many exertions (machines can willfully exhaust Berkserkers for the same purpose), thus often you won't be able to play it. And take into account the horses...
As for those Wisp of Pale Sheen, I said from the start they can't survive Rohan, Dwarves and even Knights if there's a Knight's Mount... The idea of having 2x Peril in the Sauron Grind deck of 1st Serie was to couple that card with this deck and allow them to be played directly in the Regroup phase. Spied From Above can do the work with a Nazgul centered deck, but those horses will nullify it too anyway... Not Easily Destroyed can counter horses for a high price, or Black Dart if we look into further sets.
The only pump for Wisp is another Sauron Wraith... Corpse Lights, which would be countered too by a horse... Wisp must be played in Regroup in order to be a useful option; otherwise ditch them and replace with other burden adding cards: Drawn to Its Power or more copies of Morgul Skulker (to recycle It Wants To Be Found).
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I saw the last game, and those decks seem pretty strong.
I like the Uruk deck, the rampage allows the use of new twilight added at maneuver (Eowyn/Theoden) or skirimish phases...
I would ditch those Bred for Battle and replace with Ferocity. I know Bred gives +4 to a Berserker, but with those machines they get too many exertions (machines can willfully exhaust Berkserkers for the same purpose), thus often you won't be able to play it. And take into account the horses...
As for those Wisp of Pale Sheen, I said from the start they can't survive Rohan, Dwarves and even Knights if there's a Knight's Mount... The idea of having 2x Peril in the Sauron Grind deck of 1st Serie was to couple that card with this deck and allow them to be played directly in the Regroup phase. Spied From Above can do the work with a Nazgul centered deck, but those horses will nullify it too anyway... Not Easily Destroyed can counter horses for a high price, or Black Dart if we look into further sets.
The only pump for Wisp is another Sauron Wraith... Corpse Lights, which would be countered too by a horse... Wisp must be played in Regroup in order to be a useful option; otherwise ditch them and replace with other burden adding cards: Drawn to Its Power or more copies of Morgul Skulker (to recycle It Wants To Be Found).
I like the idea of a couple of Drawn to its Power. That would be a really fearsome addition.
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I like the idea of a couple of Drawn to its Power. That would be a really fearsome addition.
The Nazgul killed rohirrim with less problems than adding burdens; failed to add 3 burdens (for more damage) until site 8, and could have added another if had exerted Frodo instead of Gandalf with the Witch... at previous sites could have added another with an It Wants To Be Found...
At site 8 killed Theoden and a Household Guard... 2 or 4 burdens. At site 9 Dmaz added another burden and killed another Guard, and could have used that Nazgul Sword for additional killing... 2 to 6 additional burdens... corruption.
I'd replace those 3 Wisps with 1 Morgul Skulker and 2 Drawn To Its Power...
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In the interest of brainstorming what might make the Twilght deck a little stronger, I perused all wraith cards in movie and came up with the following 4 cards, in order of usefulness:
Drawn to its Power (as already suggested, I think it would make a great addition)
They Will Find the Ring (a bit expensive but could make good use of burdens and make fierce minions more likely to kill someone)
Resistance Becomes Unbearable (only effective situationally, with wounds on RB and Enquea on the table, prob not worth it IMO)
The Ring Draws Them (in TT you generally don't need to worry about twilight, but a few extra could help vet out another minion)
Also 2 outsider cards:
Flung Into the Fray (seems hard to use)
Enquea, Faster Than Winds for a slight crowd control (would be brutal with a sword and 3 burdens)
I do really like Drawn to its Power, I lost 2 or 3 companions to Nazgul and at 1 or 2 burdens a pop, that would easily have been game. Should definitely include 2 copies, and probably pull 1 pump and 1 Wisp to make the room.
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Also 2 outsider cards:
Flung Into the Fray
Enquea, Faster Than Winds for a slight crowd control (would be brutal with a sword and 3 burdens)
I do really like Drawn to its Power, I lost 2 or 3 companions to Nazgul and at 1 or 2 burdens a pop, that would easily have been game. Should definitely include 2 copies, and probably pull 1 pump and 1 Wisp to make the room.
Flung Into The Fray seems of little use, as needs to spot 2 nazgul. But that Enquea can do an awesome teamwork with Deathless Lord...
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I would say keep it as much in Towers Standard as possible. The suggestion to add 2 Drawn to its Power and another Skulker seems pretty good to me.
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I saw the last game, and those decks seem pretty strong.
I like the Uruk deck, the rampage allows the use of new twilight added at maneuver (Eowyn/Theoden) or skirimish phases...
I would ditch those Bred for Battle and replace with Ferocity. I know Bred gives +4 to a Berserker, but with those machines they get too many exertions (machines can willfully exhaust Berkserkers for the same purpose), thus often you won't be able to play it. And take into account the horses...
There are only 4 machines, for a max of 8 exertions necessary to use them all. There are more than enough non-berserkers, and don't forget the sappers and engineers that place tokens for free. You don't have to exert your berserkers at all, and they all have 3 vitality so horses aren't a problem.
Here is the decklist I played:
Berserking Uruks
2x Berserk Rager
2x Uruk Engineer
3x Uruk Sapper
2x Uruk Shaman
2x Uruk Slayer
+2x Uruk Warrior
4x Uruk-Hai Berserker
-3x Uruk-hai Raiding Party
3x Broad Bladed Sword
1x Uruk Spear
-1x Black Shapes Crawling
3x Bred for Battle
2x Assault Ladder
2x Battering Ram
-1x Siege Engine
+2 Uruk-hai Rampage
Key Sites
2 Uruk Camp
4 White Mountains
5 Hornburg Parapet (could just as easily used Deep of Helm)
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Yeah, Drawn to its Power is nice
lemme make a revised version
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I saw the last game, and those decks seem pretty strong.
I like the Uruk deck, the rampage allows the use of new twilight added at maneuver (Eowyn/Theoden) or skirimish phases...
I would ditch those Bred for Battle and replace with Ferocity. I know Bred gives +4 to a Berserker, but with those machines they get too many exertions (machines can willfully exhaust Berkserkers for the same purpose), thus often you won't be able to play it. And take into account the horses...
There are only 4 machines, for a max of 8 exertions necessary to use them all. There are more than enough non-berserkers, and don't forget the sappers and engineers that place tokens for free. You don't have to exert your berserkers at all, and they all have 3 vitality so horses aren't a problem.
Here is the decklist I played:
Berserking Uruks
2x Berserk Rager
2x Uruk Engineer
3x Uruk Sapper
2x Uruk Shaman
2x Uruk Slayer
+2x Uruk Warrior
4x Uruk-Hai Berserker
-3x Uruk-hai Raiding Party
3x Broad Bladed Sword
1x Uruk Spear
-1x Black Shapes Crawling
3x Bred for Battle
2x Assault Ladder
2x Battering Ram
-1x Siege Engine
+2 Uruk-hai Rampage
Key Sites
2 Uruk Camp
4 White Mountains
5 Hornburg Parapet (could just as easily used Deep of Helm)
Just imo...that Uruk-Hai Rampage was really really brutal. Usually those big hitter conditions only include 1 per starter, because of limited condition control for fellowship. The deck is sitting at only 17 minions, I would suggest rounding it to 18 and leaving one Uruk-Hai Rampage...
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Valliant Rohirrim deck
Site Path:
Horse-Country
Uruk Camp
Meduseld
Westemnet Hills
Deep of Helm
Caves of Aglarond
King's Room
Valley of Saruman
Fortress of Orthanc
Frodo, Mr. Underhill
Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund x2
Theoden, King of the Golden Hall x2
Household Guard x2
Gandalf, The White Wizard x2
Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
Brego
Horse of Rohan x2
Herugrim x2
Rider's Spear x2
Rohirrim Bow x2
Hobbit Sword x2
Wizard Staff
Trust Me As You Once Did x2
Armory
Well Stored
Have Patience
An Honorable Charge x2
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Valliant Rohirrim deck
Site Path:
Horse-Country
Uruk Camp
Meduseld
Westemnet Hills (consider swapping for White Mountains = stronger berserkers)
Deep of Helm
Caves of Aglarond
King's Room
Valley of Saruman
Fortress of Orthanc
Frodo, Mr. Underhill
Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund x2
Theoden, King of the Golden Hall x2
Household Guard x2
Gandalf, The White Wizard x2
Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
Brego
Horse of Rohan x2
Herugrim x2
Rider's Spear x2
Rohirrim Bow x2
Hobbit Sword x2 (if this is Serie 3, we should leave these out)
Wizard Staff
Trust Me As You Once Did x2
Armory
Well Stored (don't think this is necessary with Theoden and only 2 allies)
Have Patience
An Honorable Charge x2
+1 Have Patience
+1 Behold the White Rider
+2 Gandalf's Wisdom (how could we forget this card?)
These are my suggestions. Adding in a little more Gandalf-centeredness to the deck. Thoughts? BTW the decklist you posted only had 29 cards, so yes I am only removing 3 and adding 4.
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It looks like the free people's side only has 29 cards.
I've updated the top post with proposed pairings and deck lists. I'll plan on pulling the final proposed lists tomorrow.
Biggest changes were the order. We didn't want to have the 2 wounding decks in separate series and we didn't want the two burden adding decks in separate series, so we juggled things a bit. We are still at 9 decks.
I know there is a proposal to merge the two Rohan decks, but I like the feel of each of them as they stand. I don't think it is too much to have 2 rohan decks as there is a TON of rohan stuff in towers and the other cultures still have significant presence. Putting them in series 1 and 3 mean that you will have to get through series 2 before you can merge them which is a plus.
I'd love to hear thoughts from folks!
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I think the two Rohan decks should be ok as well.
I know there was x1 Gandalf's Wisdom in the Movie sealed Trust deck but, the theme of that deck was more hobbit tricks with threats and a little choke than sheer power. The Rohan Gandy deck is really strong for clearing the board and with all of those possessions, Gandalf's Wisdom would give them the ability to dump a lot at near to no cost...
How about Ever the Hope of Men? I think the cost of two exertions is fair that and they need two mounted men and we won't offer the stables for site 3...is it too strong tho?
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Gandalf's Wisdom would be very powerful in the Rohan deck with the number of possessions that are available.
I like the idea of Behold the White Rider, Ever the Hope of Men/Task Was Not Done (great vs Uruks if you haven't been able to clear them, especially if we are going to pair this with the Berserkers) and possibly a second Have Patience. They need some healing and that is the only way to get vitality back on Gandalf for use with Trust Me As You Once Did.
Here is the proposed deck list with my changes:
2x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund
2x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall
2x Household Guard
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Brego
2x Horse of Rohan
2x Herugrim
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Bow
1x Wizard Staff
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
1x Armory
2x An Honorable Charge
2x Have Patience
1x Behold the White Rider
1x Ever the Hope of Men OR Task Was Not Done
1x Heavy Chain (to prevent overwhelms and possibly get a bit more healing through Theoden)
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Gandalf's Wisdom would be very powerful in the Rohan deck with the number of possessions that are available.
I like the idea of Behold the White Rider, Ever the Hope of Men/Task Was Not Done (great vs Uruks if you haven't been able to clear them, especially if we are going to pair this with the Berserkers) and possibly a second Have Patience. They need some healing and that is the only way to get vitality back on Gandalf for use with Trust Me As You Once Did.
Here is the proposed deck list with my changes:
2x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund
2x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall
2x Household Guard
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Sigewulf, Brave Volunteer
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Brego
2x Horse of Rohan
2x Herugrim
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Bow
1x Wizard Staff
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
1x Armory
2x An Honorable Charge
2x Have Patience
1x Behold the White Rider
1x Ever the Hope of Men OR Task Was Not Done
1x Heavy Chain (to prevent overwhelms and possibly get a bit more healing through Theoden)
This looks good. Definite differentiation from the other Rohan deck. Pulling well stored was good, as with that Theoden, you don't necessarily need it. Looking forward to seeing it in action!
I'd vote for Ever the Hope of Men over Task Was Not Done, just to make the requirements a little more stiff. Gandalf cards are meant to be a little more powerful than others, and for that reason, weren't often included in starters up until Shadows ( I don't really count FotR - Treachery Deeper Than You Know...uh #-o ). Just TMAYOD might be good enough for conditions/events by itself...
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All proposed decks and pairings have been updated in the first post. We still need to get site paths figured out for the S2S/Hobbit decks as well as choosing a Frodo.
Please look over the deck pairings, series order and decklists and provide feedback. Looks like we are making really good progress on this.
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There are still some decks with 4 copies of a card - Easterling Axeman, Uruk-hai Berserker and Rohirrim Traitor, Men will Fall and Desertion. These need to be exchanged. I suggest Easterling Infantry as replacement for the Axeman, maybe even change the deck to 2 of each.
I also suggest switching the shadows from StS/Gandalf-Rohan. Those Berserkers just gain from the mount exertions while StS generates pool on its own already. Also, Rohan somewhat hinders Flanking Attack.
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I know there is a proposal to merge the two Rohan decks, but I like the feel of each of them as they stand. I don't think it is too much to have 2 rohan decks as there is a TON of rohan stuff in towers and the other cultures still have significant presence. Putting them in series 1 and 3 mean that you will have to get through series 2 before you can merge them which is a plus.
I'd love to hear thoughts from folks!
I have the impression that no one listens/reads what I say... as there are no counterarguments.
Elves appear at 3rd Serie (in only half a deck). Same with Hobbits. Gondor have a whole Serie for themselves. There's no presence of Ents nor Gandalf (in full height)... I don't see a significant presence of anything but Gondor.
Those 2 Rohan decks work in almost the same way (except for some Gandalf presence), so it seems to me a waste of deck space. Each has little to contribute to the other, and are by themselves somewhat inefficient:
1. The 1st Serie one, "Rohan Allies", has only 3 allies and not a single Well Stored (relies on Eomer only for healing), while my merged draft has 5 allies and 2 of that condition.
2. The Valiant deck, "Gandalf & Rohan", lacks the only non-rare Valiant-themed card (out of a huge pool of only 3) that makes reasonable to build a Valiant deck (Let Us Be Swift), has 2 'valiant-themed' allies (the other 2 cards of the pool) but no way of using one of them (Sigewulf needs to spot 5 Valiant men to be 'useful', the deck provides only 4)...
My draft merges those 2 themes with more power and versatility (condition control, more healing, more possession replay, reusable pumping-allies, even archery but that can be trimmed if found OP) and very good coupling potential (Weland, Leod, mounts, An Honorable Charge), saving a valuable deck slot for other purposes (Ents, a Gandalf-centered deck, Hard Choice, Wingfoot-UB Hobbits...). Can merge well with a Gandalf TMAYOD for that purpose. Gandalf should be a resource accessible to all and not only to Rohirrim or (in a little degree) to Dwaves, he should have his own deck at Serie 2.
Limiting Gandalf to: 1) Just some little presence inside only two decks, instead of a full deck for himself, 2) Having to choose Rohan in order to get TMAYOD, or Dwarves to get only condition control and very little more, and 3) A very late apparition as he's elegible (in greater but not full height) at the 3rd and last Serie... is in my opinion A CRIME.
My conclusion: "Valiant + Allies Rohan" deck at the 1st Serie, "Gandalf TMAYOD" at the 2nd Serie.
Here's again that merged Rohan deck draft:
2x Household Guard
2x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall
1x Eomer, Forthwith Banished
1x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Leod, Westfold Herdsman
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Brego
1x Herugrim
2x Horse of Rohan
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Bow
2x Hobbit Sword
2x An Honorable Charge
1x Let Us Be Swift
2x Severed His Bonds
1x Armory
1x Arrow-slits
2x Well Stored
I owe you the Gandalf TMAYOD decklist (I'm working on it). Might be merged with Ents in order to: 1) give companion support, and 2) eliminate Ents from the waiting list...
Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Gandalf & Dwarves/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Rohan Allies/Moria & Isengard Archery
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Unbound Rangers/Twilight Nazgul
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Gandalf & Rohan/Berserkers
I like the idea of having both heavy wounding shadows (Sauron Grind and Archery) in the 1st Serie, and both corruption shadows at the 2nd. However, Southrons deck at the 3rd is a Grind + Beatdown mixture, that might be troublesome if coupled with Archery or Sauron Grind...
Serie 2 is only Gondor... that's awful. You can't couple them that way. Change one of those fellowships (not the Knight one) to the 3rd Serie. Replacing the needless Rohan & Gandalf deck. Gandalf TMAYOD (or Gandalf+Ents) can be in the 2nd Serie (and coupling Rohan from 1st with Gandalf from 2nd gets that Rohan & Gandalf deck, and much more).
Berserkers should be in Serie 2, as almost everything they need is from set 5. Paired with Gandalf.
"Ringbound Companions" at Serie 2 is a deceiving name... it only has RB Rangers and some little Frodo/Sam protection; it lacks Smeagol. I would suggest it to be merged with the Smeagol deck, but both themes require too many slots for tricks and set up... Therefore, merge those RB Rangers with the UB ones and name the result 'Rangers deck'... or at least change that fake name to 'Ringbound Rangers'.
Hope this helps and doesn't offend anyone...
EDIT: I just made a 'Gandalf TMAYOD + Ents' deck that is apparently ok, but won't post it until the debate about Rohan decks and Gondor domain at Serie 2 advances a little... to not dilute attention.
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I have the impression that no one listens/reads what I say... as there are no counterarguments.
DurinsHeir, you'll note the berserker deck now includes Uruk-hai Rampage, at your suggestion. That's just one example of people listening to you.
Elves appear at 3rd Serie (in only half a deck). Same with Hobbits. Gondor have a whole Serie for themselves. There's no presence of Ents nor Gandalf (in full height)... I don't see a significant presence of anything but Gondor
If you look at the poll that dmaz posted before any decks were developed you will see the following themes in order of votes:
Fellowship
Hunters (check)
Knights (check)
Gondor/Rohan (currently only possible by coupling)
Dwarf with Gandalf (check)
Shoulder to Shoulder (check)
RBR (check)
Shire with Smeagol (check)
Rohan with Gandalf (check)
UB Rangers (check)
Gondor and Elves
Shire with Gandalf
Ents
Pipes
Hobbit Hospital
Archery
Mounted Rohan (check)
Shadow
Twilight Nazgul (check)
Easterlings and Gollum (check)
Saron Trackers (check)
Berserkers (check)
Uruk Trackers (check)
Southrons (check)
Archery (check)
Battleground Uruks
Wargs
Moria
Isengard Men (check)
Stupid Swarm
Discard Dunland (check)
Sauron Discard
So I have to say we have done a good job giving the voters what they want, and if I remember correctly you were actually the person pushing for a mounted Rohan deck in addition to the Trust deck that was already planned. As you can see by the voting, pretty much nobody was interested in yet another Rohan deck. So maybe we should be looking to cut the one in Serie 1? This poll was the basis for the culture theme decisions, not just the whims of dmaz or any of us.
Serie 2 is only Gondor... that's awful. You can't couple them that way.
I agree and disagree. Knights and rangers dont really mix well as they both have entirely different support cards (aside from the swords). But separating the rangers is a good consideration for sure.
Berserkers should be in Serie 2, as almost everything they need is from set 5. Paired with Gandalf.
There is no reason they need to be in the same Serie as their representative cards, as long as they are not a choice before then. You will get Helms Deep packs in Serie 2 and can use those cards in Serie 3 just as well. The shadows of the other 3 decks we currently have in Serie 2 can all make the same claim (Gollum, Dunland Discard, Twilight Nazgul).
"Ringbound Companions" at Serie 2 is a deceiving name... it only has RB Rangers and some little Frodo/Sam protection; it lacks Smeagol. I would suggest it to be merged with the Smeagol deck, but both themes require too many slots for tricks and set up... Therefore, merge those RB Rangers with the UB ones and name the result 'Rangers deck'... or at least change that fake name to 'Ringbound Rangers'.
Please refer again to the poll results to see why the culture themes we are working on were divided as such.
Hope this helps and doesn't offend anyone...
Not at all. Please keep in mind that the deck choices were not arbitrary or personal favorites of a select few people.
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There are still some decks with 4 copies of a card - Easterling Axeman, Uruk-hai Berserker and Rohirrim Traitor, Men will Fall and Desertion. These need to be exchanged. I suggest Easterling Infantry as replacement for the Axeman, maybe even change the deck to 2 of each.
I also suggest switching the shadows from StS/Gandalf-Rohan. Those Berserkers just gain from the mount exertions while StS generates pool on its own already. Also, Rohan somewhat hinders Flanking Attack.
For the Rohirrim Traitors deck, we can't get around having 4 copies of those cards.
Regarding the Easterlings and Uruks, there are certainly more options for cards, even from outside sets, whereas the Isengard Men only have this small card pool.
The only conditions that they have that aren't rare is Desertion, their only pump is Men Will Fall, and their only non-unique minion that isn't a rare is Rohirrim Traitor. There really must be an exception for these guys.
For the Hobbits & Semagol/Rohirrim Traitors deck, Site 9 should be Orthanc Balcony I think.
Elves appear at 3rd Serie (in only half a deck). Same with Hobbits. Gondor have a whole Serie for themselves. There's no presence of Ents nor Gandalf (in full height)... I don't see a significant presence of anything but Gondor.
Those 2 Rohan decks work in almost the same way (except for some Gandalf presence), so it seems to me a waste of deck space. Each has little to contribute to the other, and are by themselves somewhat inefficient:
1. The 1st Serie one, "Rohan Allies", has only 3 allies and not a single Well Stored (relies on Eomer only for healing), while my merged draft has 5 allies and 2 of that condition.
2. The Valiant deck, "Gandalf & Rohan", lacks the only non-rare Valiant-themed card (out of a huge pool of only 3) that makes reasonable to build a Valiant deck (Let Us Be Swift), has 2 'valiant-themed' allies (the other 2 cards of the pool) but no way of using one of them (Sigewulf needs to spot 5 Valiant men to be 'useful', the deck provides only 4)...
My draft merges those 2 themes with more power and versatility (condition control, more healing, more possession replay, reusable pumping-allies, even archery but that can be trimmed if found OP) and very good coupling potential (Weland, Leod, mounts, An Honorable Charge), saving a valuable deck slot for other purposes (Ents, a Gandalf-centered deck, Hard Choice, Wingfoot-UB Hobbits...). Can merge well with a Gandalf TMAYOD for that purpose. Gandalf should be a resource accessible to all and not only to Rohirrim or (in a little degree) to Dwaves, he should have his own deck at Serie 2.
Limiting Gandalf to: 1) Just some little presence inside only two decks, instead of a full deck for himself, 2) Having to choose Rohan in order to get TMAYOD, or Dwarves to get only condition control and very little more, and 3) A very late apparition as he's elegible (in greater but not full height) at the 3rd and last Serie... is in my opinion A CRIME.
My conclusion: "Valiant + Allies Rohan" deck at the 1st Serie, "Gandalf TMAYOD" at the 2nd Serie.
I like the idea of having both heavy wounding shadows (Sauron Grind and Archery) in the 1st Serie, and both corruption shadows at the 2nd. However, Southrons deck at the 3rd is a Grind + Beatdown mixture, that might be troublesome if coupled with Archery or Sauron Grind...
Serie 2 is only Gondor... that's awful. You can't couple them that way. Change one of those fellowships (not the Knight one) to the 3rd Serie. Replacing the needless Rohan & Gandalf deck. Gandalf TMAYOD (or Gandalf+Ents) can be in the 2nd Serie (and coupling Rohan from 1st with Gandalf from 2nd gets that Rohan & Gandalf deck, and much more).
Berserkers should be in Serie 2, as almost everything they need is from set 5. Paired with Gandalf.
"Ringbound Companions" at Serie 2 is a deceiving name... it only has RB Rangers and some little Frodo/Sam protection; it lacks Smeagol. I would suggest it to be merged with the Smeagol deck, but both themes require too many slots for tricks and set up... Therefore, merge those RB Rangers with the UB ones and name the result 'Rangers deck'... or at least change that fake name to 'Ringbound Rangers'.
Hope this helps and doesn't offend anyone...
EDIT: I just made a 'Gandalf TMAYOD + Ents' deck that is apparently ok, but won't post it until the debate about Rohan decks and Gondor domain at Serie 2 advances a little... to not dilute attention.
Having two Rohan decks really isn't needless. There is quite a bit in the Towers block that is dedicated to Rohan, and the way that the decks function is not identical at all. We've playtested them both and they both have a very different feel. They even have a different feel from the preexisting starters from Set 4 and 5, so it goes to show how much variation there can be. Regarding Sigewulf, he's not completely useless. At the very worst he is simply cannon fodder at site 4, while there is a decent chance to pull another Valliant man. Also, starter decks are not meant to be the best constructed deck that you can find. We need to keep remembering that. These are just a basis for you to build. There are supposed to be cards that are only relatively useful so that you can pull them out for other cards.
Regarding the only Gondor in series 2, I see where you're coming from there.
It would be nice to be able to combine Rangers and Knights or UB Rangers and RB Rangers. We just need to decide if it would disrupt the balance of the league to do that, creating one deck that is superior to the rest. It should be noted that all of the Gondor decks proved to be pretty strong in play-testing.
This is the way I'm looking at it right now: If we split them up, it would create more fun combination options for Gondor. However, Gondor technically not the highlight theme in the book or film The Two Towers. And really, they are not supposed to be the highlight for the TT Block either.
Now this doesn't mean they should be ignored...but do think that having it this way could foster more branching out from the Gondor theme alone...with people creating a wider variety of decks.
Lastly, it feels like the general consensus on Ents (both in discussion and poll) is that their interest is quite low for having a deck dedicated to them. Even though they do play a solid part in the story, they already have a deck for them in the current TT sealed, and it would be nice to branch away from that (as we did by leaving Wargs alone). This isn't to say that pulling a Lindenroot would be completely useless. Quite the contrary! He would be a killer addition to the Hobbit/Smeagol deck. Additionally, if you pulled a fair amount of Warg cards in your boosters, it would be great to splash them in with the Isengard Men deck to use with Saruman, SotE :)
From looking at all of this, it feels like the only time you might feel like you were really missing support from your starter deck, would be Serie 2, if you pulled a lot of Elf cards (Battle of Helms Deep boosters have a lot of those). However, we really can't fit every single need (otherwise we would have 5 starters per serie), and Elf cards would still fit well with the Unbound Ranger starter deck in serie 2. You get Arwen, Asfaloth and a pump, and if we really feel like Serie 2 needs a little more help we can easily pull something to toss in an Elven sword to boot. Then you would get a lot more support in Serie 3 with Shoulder to Shoulder.
Above all we need to remember that these are the base decks for a sealed league. We should not be filling everyone's needs by having all of the right cards in each deck or right combination choices per serie. We need to leave some things open to personal choice, creativity and luck of the draw. That results in the most interesting league environment :)
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I like the idea of having both heavy wounding shadows (Sauron Grind and Archery) in the 1st Serie, and both corruption shadows at the 2nd. However, Southrons deck at the 3rd is a Grind + Beatdown mixture, that might be troublesome if coupled with Archery or Sauron Grind...
This is a good point, and it was addressed while Euk was brainstorming for Southron ideas. We did realize that they could be very potent if splashed with grind or some other kind of wounding (one of the top-chosen final decks of the Movie sealed is the southrons/archery with the Morgul Ambusher, so it does pack a punch). Because of this, the Southron deck was kind of designed so that you would need to dedicate to its strategy in order for it to work well. Just throwing in a couple southron archers and some Whirling Strikes into an archery deck isn't really an effective combination. The deck is set up to use the southrons for Ambush in order to get the twilight to use the skirmish wounding. So you need to invest a little heavier card-count wise in the southron culture...which would hurt you if you were trying to combine with Sauron grind.
Like bigredmf pointed out, we tried to develop decks that were mostly on the top of the list...however, for reasons of variation and overall balance we picked a couple that weren't quite as popular. A lot of us agreed that with the number of Dunland pulls that you could get in boosters, it was wise to have a least one base deck for them.
Also, we are trying to branch out and make the league fun, new and fresh :) Including a shadow like Isengard Men would both allow for some random booster rare pulls to get used, when they otherwise wouldn't, and bring situations to hand that may have never been seen in Towers Standard. We have already had some very fun and interesting situations just in playtesting.
Someone described the way the Knights struggled against the Twilight Nazgul as "almost comical" at one point, and it was!
How cool is it to have to waste two fortifications and a pump to try to take down a mounted Twilight Otsea to prevent him from putting the blade tip on Frodo? So cool! That like never happens haha! XD
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Others have already chimed in on some of your points, but I think I need to call out some things here.
Those 2 Rohan decks work in almost the same way (except for some Gandalf presence), so it seems to me a waste of deck space. Each has little to contribute to the other, and are by themselves somewhat inefficient:
1. The 1st Serie one, "Rohan Allies", has only 3 allies and not a single Well Stored (relies on Eomer only for healing), while my merged draft has 5 allies and 2 of that condition.
Please make sure that you are looking at the latest and greatest deck lists in the first post in this thread. I keep that one place up to date with the latest deck information that we have tested and or suggested for testing. The Rohan Allies deck has 2 copies of Well Stored...
2. The Valiant deck, "Gandalf & Rohan", lacks the only non-rare Valiant-themed card (out of a huge pool of only 3) that makes reasonable to build a Valiant deck (Let Us Be Swift), has 2 'valiant-themed' allies (the other 2 cards of the pool) but no way of using one of them (Sigewulf needs to spot 5 Valiant men to be 'useful', the deck provides only 4)...
I agree. LUBS is a GREAT card. And it is a little too powerful for use in sealed. Giving it to a culture that can heal, Skirmish (while clearing the board), remove conditions and liberate sites gives them one weakness - burden removal. Having someone pull it in a booster is a possibility, but giving it as a tool in a deck makes Rohan too powerful. Just like we don't want to create one shadow pairing (Twi Naz w/ Easterlings or Grind with Archery) that is too powerful, we don't want to create one fellowship deck or pairing that is too powerful.
Limiting Gandalf to: 1) Just some little presence inside only two decks, instead of a full deck for himself, 2) Having to choose Rohan in order to get TMAYOD, or Dwarves to get only condition control and very little more, and 3) A very late apparition as he's elegible (in greater but not full height) at the 3rd and last Serie... is in my opinion A CRIME.
Gandalf was a very powerful Maiar. He took on and defeated a Balrog. He fought the Necromancer of Mirkwood with the White Council. He is a very powerful support character. Having a deck dedicated to him, particularly when he is primarily a toolbox support character is right out from a deck design perspective. If people pull cards that make Gandalf the most desirable character then there are chances to get him (vs. 0 chances in Towers Sealed).
I like the idea of having both heavy wounding shadows (Sauron Grind and Archery) in the 1st Serie, and both corruption shadows at the 2nd. However, Southrons deck at the 3rd is a Grind + Beatdown mixture, that might be troublesome if coupled with Archery or Sauron Grind...
You do have a point there. The intention behind the shadows and fellowships in Series 3 is that they are primarily cards that will fill in holes or are experimental in nature. Archery/Grind is powerful and the fellowships mesh well. We might want to switch the Berserkers and Southrons to prevent the double pairing.
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For the Hobbits & Semagol/Rohirrim Traitors deck, Site 9 should be Orthanc Balcony I think.
The reason I would keep the current site is due to the inclusion of the regroup phase wounding orcs. Thought that site could give an edge to the deck if you can get enough wounds out there. The Common ring cannot be used to absorb regroup wounds, so that site could be VERY powerful.
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For the Hobbits & Semagol/Rohirrim Traitors deck, Site 9 should be Orthanc Balcony I think.
The reason I would keep the current site is due to the inclusion of the regroup phase wounding orcs. Thought that site could give an edge to the deck if you can get enough wounds out there. The Common ring cannot be used to absorb regroup wounds, so that site could be VERY powerful.
That's true! And since they aren't set 6 orcs combined in, it shouldn't be overpowered.
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DurinsHeir, you'll note the berserker deck now includes Uruk-hai Rampage, at your suggestion. That's just one example of people listening to you.
Well, you're right with the Rampage. But no one said anything about the Ents draft, except for a misaimed commentary about outsider cards not yet included...
I'd like to see some technical arguments for or against the Valiant + Allies merged deck, or by default the old Galilean way ("Shut up and test it!" :P). No technical thing has been said (or tested), just a quiet bypass.
I just want to see more arguments/counterarguments. And you're providing them, thank you!
As for the 'significant presence', I meant Gondor has too many decks (Three Hunters and every single deck at 2nd Serie), and Rohan has 2 needing only 1...
In respect of the options in the poll, you're right we have done a good job, not only according to the votes but to many of the total options too. (I think we make a great team ;)). I'm not pushing to add a theme by removing something, I'm pushing to get some natural merging between decks and use the newly availabe space for the Gandalf-centered deck and Ents. Probably merged into 1...
Nevertheless, the poll isn't an inexorable law we must obey without freedom, though we must not be deaf to it. A minority of the total voters know the difficulties concerning the creation of these standalone poorman decks, or making them able to couple well between them but not be OP, or the FP/Shadow pairings. The poll is just a general opinion; we can obey it, but it can be enriched. (see below)
If you look at the poll that dmaz posted before any decks were developed you will see the following themes in order of votes:
... Gondor/Rohan (currently only possible by coupling)
... Rohan with Gandalf (check)...
To merge 2 themes into 1 deck means not to omit anything, but save deck slots and include more. To couple 2 themes from different Series means the same: out of 2 themes, we get 3. Nothing is lost.
I don't want to eliminate the posibility of a Gondor/Rohan deck, but make it "currently only possible and very well achieved by coupling", by making a Gandalf-centered deck instead and putting it in Serie 2.
As for the themes discarded by lack of votes:
Gondor and Elves
Shire with Gandalf
Ents
Pipes
Hobbit Hospital
Archery
Only Pipes, Hobbit Hospital and Archery wouldn't be possible by coupling. As far as we make a Gandalf deck and put it in Serie 2 (to couple with Rohan from Serie 1, or with Smeagol + Hobbits at Serie 3)... And Ents should be merged with Gandalf, making a completely new deck, very different from the Free Peoples of Witch King's starter.
Not a single theme is removed if we merge both Rohan decks into 1, and Gandalf with Ents. And that Gandalf deck could be coupled into other themes: with Gondor, Dwarves, Three Hunters, S2S...
Pipes are lame and OP, Hobbit Hospital is impossible (key allies except Rosie Cotton are rares) and Archery is OP so we ditched them... Actually my Rohan draft allows heavy archery possession replay, that worries me a little... we can trim that possibility by removing Rohirrim Bow (or replacing it with Rohirrim Javelin, as it's not directed)...
... and if I remember correctly you were actually the person pushing for a mounted Rohan deck in addition to the Trust deck that was already planned. As you can see by the voting, pretty much nobody was interested in yet another Rohan deck. So maybe we should be looking to cut the one in Serie 1? This poll was the basis for the culture theme decisions, not just the whims of dmaz or any of us.
I never pushed for another Rohan deck with mount theme, but pushed for 2 things: 1) a Rohan deck with mount theme (Weland, Leod) at Serie 1 for both representation and coupling pursposes (at that moment I was pushing for 4 decks at Serie 1, with RB Rangers), and 2) the use of Horse of Rohan instead of Rider's Mount, for coupling purposes too: Mounted Elves (Feathered) is a good example. I never liked the idea of 2 Rohan centered decks as found it pretty redundant (always heal yourself, exert them and kill), at some point I liked the idea of a Hard Choice deck with Theoden and Eomer at Serie 3, but nothing more than that...
I don't want the Serie 1 Rohan deck to be removed, but to be merged with the Valiant deck and the result put in Serie 1... with Horse of Rohan instead of Rider's Mount ;).
I agree and disagree. Knights and rangers dont really mix well as they both have entirely different support cards (aside from the swords). But separating the rangers is a good consideration for sure.
Knights and Rangers can couple here with Boromir, Steward's Heir bridging the gap. I'd prefer to have 1 Gondor deck in each of the 3 Series, but I know it won't happen. At least put that RB Rangers deck in Serie 3 to be able for coupling with Knights or UB Rangers...
There is no reason they need to be in the same Serie as their representative cards, as long as they are not a choice before then. You will get Helms Deep packs in Serie 2 and can use those cards in Serie 3 just as well. The shadows of the other 3 decks we currently have in Serie 2 can all make the same claim (Gollum, Dunland Discard, Twilight Nazgul).
Gollum shadow cards are only 5 at set 5 (1 rare: Stinker). But your argument is quite logical. Anyway, I think Uruks should have a strong and early presence in this Sealed, as they are the main threat to Free Peoples in the book/movie. Uruk Trackers are good but not enough for that representative purpose...
Please refer again to the poll results to see why the culture themes we are working on were divided as such.
Then the name or 'RB Companions' should be changed to 'RB Rangers'. If RB Rangers remain at Serie 2, they can couple with the Smeagol deck into truthful 'Ringbound Companions'...
Thank you again for the technical argument interchange. That's what I wanted. That's what we need.
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Having two Rohan decks really isn't needless. There is quite a bit in the Towers block that is dedicated to Rohan, and the way that the decks function is not identical at all. We've playtested them both and they both have a very different feel. They even have a different feel from the preexisting starters from Set 4 and 5, so it goes to show how much variation there can be. Regarding Sigewulf, he's not completely useless. At the very worst he is simply cannon fodder at site 4, while there is a decent chance to pull another Valliant man. Also, starter decks are not meant to be the best constructed deck that you can find. We need to keep remembering that. These are just a basis for you to build. There are supposed to be cards that are only relatively useful so that you can pull them out for other cards.
You're right in respect they aren't identical, but the goal is the same: heal yourself, exert them and kill; and I bet most of the difference is due to TMAYOD. And 2 decks is needless if we can merge them into 1 without any loss but with improvements. Or just think as Galileo would... TEST!
We don't need useless cards. Three Hunters have none, nor Gandwarves, nor Knights... it's not a rational way of building. I remember you were searching for a slot to add a Dwarven Axe in Three Hunters deck... Sigewulf is useless in absense of 5 Valiant ones, and even that way he needs 6 or more companions, thus he's a 'Welcome!' banner for Shotgun Enquea or Southron Commander.
Regarding the only Gondor in series 2, I see where you're coming from there.
It would be nice to be able to combine Rangers and Knights or UB Rangers and RB Rangers. We just need to decide if it would disrupt the balance of the league to do that, creating one deck that is superior to the rest. It should be noted that all of the Gondor decks proved to be pretty strong in play-testing.
This is the way I'm looking at it right now: If we split them up, it would create more fun combination options for Gondor. However, Gondor technically not the highlight theme in the book or film The Two Towers. And really, they are not supposed to be the highlight for the TT Block either.
Now this doesn't mean they should be ignored...but do think that having it this way could foster more branching out from the Gondor theme alone...with people creating a wider variety of decks.
If the combos are OP, just nerf the decks a little... just the needed to reduce/remove the OP combo. And if we consider the highlight themes, those would be Rohan, Three Hunters, Gandalf and Ents... We are excluding the last and half the penultimate.
All Gondor decks are strong in testing, but the same goes with Rohan. And with TMAYOD in constructed, even poorman. We don't want those 2 Rohan decks in the same Serie...
Maybe we need to merge the UB Rangers and RB Rangers into one single deck... and nerf it until is not OP.
Lastly, it feels like the general consensus on Ents (both in discussion and poll) is that their interest is quite low for having a deck dedicated to them. Even though they do play a solid part in the story, they already have a deck for them in the current TT sealed, and it would be nice to branch away from that (as we did by leaving Wargs alone). This isn't to say that pulling a Lindenroot would be completely useless. Quite the contrary! He would be a killer addition to the Hobbit/Smeagol deck. Additionally, if you pulled a fair amount of Warg cards in your boosters, it would be great to splash them in with the Isengard Men deck to use with Saruman, SotE :)
From looking at all of this, it feels like the only time you might feel like you were really missing support from your starter deck, would be Serie 2, if you pulled a lot of Elf cards (Battle of Helms Deep boosters have a lot of those). However, we really can't fit every single need (otherwise we would have 5 starters per serie), and Elf cards would still fit well with the Unbound Ranger starter deck in serie 2. You get Arwen, Asfaloth and a pump, and if we really feel like Serie 2 needs a little more help we can easily pull something to toss in an Elven sword to boot. Then you would get a lot more support in Serie 3 with Shoulder to Shoulder.
What can I do with an Enraged pull without an Ent?
Wargs need Isen Orcs with a specific keyword: warg-rider. That cripples everything most of the times... Maybe adding some wargriders to the Isengard Traitors deck, and the discarding Isen Orcs instead of the exertable. The feared combo won't be available (except from pulls) if we exclude either the set 3 Orcs or the set 6 Orcs... and wargriders can't merge with set 3 ones.
There are the Three Hunters for Elven support at 1st Serie...
Above all we need to remember that these are the base decks for a sealed league. We should not be filling everyone's needs by having all of the right cards in each deck or right combination choices per serie. We need to leave some things open to personal choice, creativity and luck of the draw. That results in the most interesting league environment :)
We aren't providing everything. There are also heavy restrictions: rares and the 3-cards-max rule. And my proposal points to creativity: to discover the possibilities that lie hidden in deck coupling...
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What can I do with an Enraged pull without an Ent?
Unless we make 4 to 5 deck choices per Serie, there will always be pulls that just end up being useless. Our goal is simply to minimize that without going overboard. If Enraged or Ent-moot are the only pulls we can think of that could theoretically be useless based on other booster pulls, then we are already miles ahead of any other sealed league regarding card playability.
There are also heavy restrictions: rares and the 3-cards-max rule.
No 3-cards max per card rule. This will just be applied on a case-by-case basis.
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Others have already chimed in on some of your points, but I think I need to call out some things here.
Please make sure that you are looking at the latest and greatest deck lists in the first post in this thread. I keep that one place up to date with the latest deck information that we have tested and or suggested for testing. The Rohan Allies deck has 2 copies of Well Stored...
You're right, tried to find them at first in the updated first post but didn't saw. My mistake. But my point stands: only 3 allies is too little... no Leod, that's very bad for coupling... my draft has 2x Well Stored and 5 useful allies. Being a Valiant deck.
I agree. LUBS is a GREAT card. And it is a little too powerful for use in sealed. Giving it to a culture that can heal, Skirmish (while clearing the board), remove conditions and liberate sites gives them one weakness - burden removal. Having someone pull it in a booster is a possibility, but giving it as a tool in a deck makes Rohan too powerful. Just like we don't want to create one shadow pairing (Twi Naz w/ Easterlings or Grind with Archery) that is too powerful, we don't want to create one fellowship deck or pairing that is too powerful.
Fortress Never Fallen can remove much more conditions as Rohirrim can win skiimishes with ease. As far as we exclude FNF and include only 1x Let Us Be Swift, it won't be overpowered as will be a 'use once and destroy' card (just as insulin syringes). Condition based shadows use much more conditions than just 2, and Site Controlling shadows aim to control more than just one site... I can't see the OP property. You need to use it at the right time.
If we don't include LUBS, the only Valiant card anyone will use is Ecglaf. Or pulled Valiant tricks, which aren't too many and are all rare but the 3 mentioned. Let's configure the deck around Ecglaf then...
Gandalf was a very powerful Maiar. He took on and defeated a Balrog. He fought the Necromancer of Mirkwood with the White Council. He is a very powerful support character. Having a deck dedicated to him, particularly when he is primarily a toolbox support character is right out from a deck design perspective. If people pull cards that make Gandalf the most desirable character then there are chances to get him (vs. 0 chances in Towers Sealed).
Gandalf fought the Nine Riders alone as the Grey Wizard in Amon Sul, he entered both Moria and Dol Guldur searching for Thrain II and escaped alive (and thus the Quest of Erebor was possible), he and Elrond defeated the Nazgul at the Bruinen, he freed Theoden and destroyed Saruman's domain...
Such a great character deserves a better representation than just an 'exert him to pump anyone' support fellow...
A real problem with the Gandalf culture is his tricks require too many card slots to work well... so we have to forget about Intimidate, Strength of Spirit, Fireworks... which means we won't put too many tricks into one Gandalf-centered deck merged with, let's say, Ents. The deck I'm building has only 6 Gandalf events (2 pumps, 1 for a defender bonus, 1 for healing, 1 against possessions and 1 against conditions), 3 copies of him, a Staff and 2 TMAYOD. That's powerful but not OP. A total of 9 support cards (8 if we exclude the Staff).
Sealed league decks work most of the times only if the card count is 33 max per side. Even in Revised Movie Sealed. There are little drawing cards available. We included Elven Sword, Fell Beast, They Are Coming and Hate and Anger as cycling cards; Hate and Anger, Orc Insurgent and The Grey Pilgrim as drawing ones (Gate Veteran and Orc Runner, but those almost can't be counted). That's not too much. So small decks will be the most efficient, as always.
You do have a point there. The intention behind the shadows and fellowships in Series 3 is that they are primarily cards that will fill in holes or are experimental in nature. Archery/Grind is powerful and the fellowships mesh well. We might want to switch the Berserkers and Southrons to prevent the double pairing.
I think there's a lot of work to do prior to assert anything about that... A Gandalf+Ents deck in Serie 2 changes everything. That would move either UB or RB Rangers to Serie 3 (in the place of that Rohan+Gandalf deck)... Thus the pairings with Serie 1 would be quite different.
No 3-cards max per card rule. This will just be applied on a case-by-case basis.
I know 3-cards-max rule won't apply if the options are too limited, as happens with Isengard Men or Uruk Archers (Band of Uruk Bowmen is worthless)...
But the restrictions are actually more: 3 cards (most of the time), no-rares and 30 cards per deck... if we merge different themes as I point out, we need to exclude even more useful resources and spend every card slot with extreme care... just as we did with Three Hunters, where we had to squeeze our brains to get those Athelas, pumps and that Dwarven Axe inside...
As for the Ents and Enraged, we don't need 5 or 4 decks per Serie, but only 3 per Serie and more themes merged into one deck...
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For the Hobbits & Semagol/Rohirrim Traitors deck, Site 9 should be Orthanc Balcony I think.
The reason I would keep the current site is due to the inclusion of the regroup phase wounding orcs. Thought that site could give an edge to the deck if you can get enough wounds out there. The Common ring cannot be used to absorb regroup wounds, so that site could be VERY powerful.
That's true! And since they aren't set 6 orcs combined in, it shouldn't be overpowered.
Set 6 Isen Orcs aren't overpowered if Set 3 exertable Isen Orcs are excluded... the OP combo is: exhaust them, then discard them. That way Set 6 Orcs can only discard other Orcs like Isengard Smith or pulled copies of Isengard Warrior, Isengard Shaman, Isengard Forger or Goblin Man... that's not huge.
I really believe Set 3 Orcs won't have vitality for exertions at Regroup if they ever survive (Horse of Rohan, Knight's Mount, Frying Pan, Ithilien Trap, Ranger's Bow, Dwarven or Rohirrim Tanks), so their ability will be useless... while set 6 Orcs may be still useful. Against Hobbits Set 6 Orcs are weaker. That's good too.
21 minions is very good, but not enough for a swarm since they don't add twilight and cost too much... besides, Saruman never fights so we should count 18 only.
If we were going to add only a single rare card in the whole league, I'd vote for Saruman's Staff without a second thought... Dreaming is tax free!
By the way, starter decks from sets 5 and 6 have 3 fixed rares each... Maybe 1 per deck in each of Series 2 and 3 won't be too much...
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The way I see it, combining series 1 and 3 Rohan will give you a decent Rohan beatdown deck. And they're different enough (as different as Rohan can be). I get what you are saying, DurinsHeir, and I'm neither ignoring nor dismissing it or even find it offending. We all have different opinions and make different cases which only bring us closer to fine tuning these decks.
Now, I am against Ents because they are just too strong for Sealed imo. I too think this of TT Sealed. Making an Ents starter deck was a big mistake back then. Gondor is well present, that's true, but the themes hardly go hand in hand, which is why 2 Gondor decks in one series is fine with me.
The rest already has been said. You guys do the buttload of work here and I'm somewhat condemned to put up a comment here and there and leave it at that. Today was the first time when I could read your posts in a row, not having to remember every single bit from earlier.
By the way, starter decks from sets 5 and 6 have 3 fixed rares each... Maybe 1 per deck in each of Series 2 and 3 won't be too much...
And again, we are doing this in the spirit of the Revised Movie Sealed, not the TT Sealed. So no R cards.
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The way I see it, combining series 1 and 3 Rohan will give you a decent Rohan beatdown deck. And they're different enough (as different as Rohan can be).
Rohan can't be too different really, except for Archery it's always 'exert them, pump yourself and kill', plus healing. I really bet TMAYOD makes most of the difference between both decks.
Besides, both versions are standalone decent beatdown decks... they don't really need the other part.
You can get a better deck than those 2 together by mixing the merged draft I made (Valiant + Allies) with Gandalf TMAYOD.
I get what you are saying, DurinsHeir, and I'm neither ignoring nor dismissing it or even find it offending. We all have different opinions and make different cases which only bring us closer to fine tuning these decks.
Maybe I'm just impatient... technical (logical) arguments and refutations are needed here.
Now, I am against Ents because they are just too strong for Sealed imo. I too think this of TT Sealed. Making an Ents starter deck was a big mistake back then. Gondor is well present, that's true, but the themes hardly go hand in hand, which is why 2 Gondor decks in one series is fine with me.
Looking at it that way, 2 but not 3 Gondor decks in Serie 2 are fine. 3 would be nasty...
Constructed Gondor or Rohan are very mighty fellowships, even poorman ones as those we are building. Those Gondor decks can couple into powerful mixes: pumps, fortifications, choke, healing, skirmish and maneuver wounding, defender bonuses, sometimes damage bonus with Dagger Strike or War and Valor... And a full Gondor path can be walked: Three Hunters at Serie 1 (def+1 Aragorn, 2x Trust and Defend It and Hope), Knights or Rangers at Serie 2, Rangers at Serie 3...
6 or 7 Rohirrim with possession/ally/condition support at site 7 are almost unstoppable, even with Shotgun Enquea in hand. You can get all that by coupling either 2 Rohan or 2 Gondor decks...
Ents are quite susceptible to crowd control, and here we won't have Vitality additions (G's Staff, Narya, Ent Draught) nor wound prevention besides maybe Intimidate (which is excluded from my draft), so Enquea will kill Gandalf most of the times. There are 2 vital points to aim against Ents + Gandalf: you kill the Wizard or you kill the UB Hobbits and the deck stops. With Rohan or Gondor, generic men can replace unique heroes without vital losses, so you can vomit companions over and over again... Here we won't have A Wizard is Never Late. Unlike Rohan, Ents don't have damage bonus except for Treebeard exerting himself and Boomed and Trumpeted.
The rest already has been said. You guys do the buttload of work here and I'm somewhat condemned to put up a comment here and there and leave it at that. Today was the first time when I could read your posts in a row, not having to remember every single bit from earlier.
That explains some things. Your opinion is very valuable here, people follow strongly your points and ideas. You bring deep knowledge of strategies, inner synergies and metagame...
And again, we are doing this in the spirit of the Revised Movie Sealed, not the TT Sealed. So no R cards.
You're right, that would distort too much the format.
Thank you for all the effort you give to this new blood... we wouldn't have ended Southrons, Three Hunters, Knights... without your guidance. Hope we all take this project together to the end of the track...
EDIT: Posted the Ents + Gandalf deck draft at the other thread.
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Now, I am against Ents because they are just too strong for Sealed imo. I too think this of TT Sealed. Making an Ents starter deck was a big mistake back then. Gondor is well present, that's true, but the themes hardly go hand in hand, which is why 2 Gondor decks in one series is fine with me.
Yeah...really only the first two series of the Towers sealed league are interesting due to this...that and Southron Commander really isn't effective as crowd control when you pack 15 to 16 companions per deck. They just end up helping you cycle in new companions with no wounds.
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Yeah...really only the first two series of the Towers sealed league are interesting due to this...that and Southron Commander really isn't effective as crowd control when you pack 15 to 16 companions per deck. They just end up helping you cycle in new companions with no wounds.
Shotgun Enquea can't participate in Two Towers Sealed... and he wishes he could ;).
Far Harad Mercenaries and Easterling Pillager are way better than Southron Commander.
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Durins Heir - I would like to address something that seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding about this process. This is my personal opinion, so please take it as it is. You are thinking as a passionate player and as a constructed deck designer. You are trying to create the most efficient and powerful constructed decks that you can from the card pool available while limiting yourself to commons and uncommons. That is not what we are trying to accomplish with the Starter Deck design for this league. Keep that in mind, these are starters. It is the bare minimum you need in order to have a solid core for a deck while allowing you to be able to customize it based on cards that you receive in the product you are given. By definition that is a ring bearer, a one ring, a 9-card site path and 30 cards per side. We imposed the restriction of 3 of any given card per starter where possible to make it so that booster pulls are not wasted, while not crippling the deck so much that the theme of it doesn't hold together. We also don't want to make one starter too powerful on its own. Yes constructed Gondor is pretty good in many places, but we are not aiming for constructed gondor. We are aiming to create sealed type decks that are different from the decks we have seen before.
Additionally we want to design the decks in such a way that they have weaknesses and no one deck, or pairings of decks outshines all the others. This is why in the process of play testing we have stripped cards from some decks that were natural choices and added other cards in their places. Thus stripping LUBS from the Valiant Rohan. Rohan can fight and heal and do some manner of directed wounding. If we give them condition removal and site liberation as well, they have too few weaknesses. None of the other fellowships have as few weaknesses as Rohan does.
There are a few things that you keep coming back to and keep fighting for: a gandalf themed deck, Rohan consolidation, additional decks for more culture coverage and making it so that you can use Gondor in multiple series.
The first two points are somewhat coupled - if we consolidate the two Rohan decks, we can make room for a Gandalf Themed deck. This is true, however the only way to get a Gandalf Themed deck is to go with Ents and that has some serious issues as Eukalyptus has laid out. The only overlap you get from the Rohan decks is being able to use some of the allies between decks, and sharing weapons. It will be very difficult to effectively use the Trust Me As You Once Did side of the second Rohan Deck with the Rohan deck of the first series without making the decks too large, so players will have to focus on either making fighting Rohan more effective, or trying to get themselves some additional Frodo support (TMAYOD).
Your point about additional decks for more culture coverage is valid, but as was said earlier, we are trying to replicate the feel of the Revised Movie Block league. In that, of the 9 decks, on the shadow side there are 2 that have uruks, 2 that have archery themes, 1 isengard orc, 1 Nazgul, 1 Dunland, 1 Shelob/Gollum and 1 easterling. As I pointed out earlier, this leaves out MANY major shadow themes of movie block including Moria swarm, corsairs, Sauron orcs of ALL varieties, Warg Riders etc. We are trying to cover as many bases in Towers Standard as we can while still following the recommendations that we received from players in the poll that dmaz put up to start this whole process. Some of the deck types that people recommended are not possible as they require rares to make them work (HIDAN, Last Alliance of Elves and Men strict hobbit hospital etc.) Sticking with 9 decks naturally gives us limited slots on both the shadow and and I think we are filling them well while still giving the variety in choice.
As for making a path for Gondor in each series, none of the themes that we have come up with seem to have much overlap with each other. Knights and rangers don't mix well without diluting the strategy of either too much, UB and RB rangers don't mix well as the RBR rely on making minions roaming to do many of their tricks. Gondor just doesn't mix the way that Rohan does in Towers Standard.
Part of the challenge of designing starter decks for a league is that you don't want to make one choice too obvious or powerful. That is why the decks that we have designed are paired as they are, both from a Fellowship/Shadow perspective as well as a Series perspective:
Serie 1:
Gandalf & Dwarves/Sauron Trackers (Grind) - Gandalf + Sleep has the capability of destroying the Sauron Trackers has anti-7 with The Number Must be Few.
Rohan Allies/Moria & Isengard Archery - Rohan Allies Heal while under the threat of massive amounts of archery if they floood the pool. The deck can put out a LOT of archery (almost too much with just 6 companions)
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers - The Hunters do decently against the trackers due to their strength pumps, defender +1 Aragorn. We don't want to give out too much goodness here and Defender +1 Gorn makes this a very tempting choice with as powerful as that ability is, particularly if he is armed with a sword. Good anti-6 with Enquea
For previously stated reasons, we need the archery and grind decks in this series to prevent cross-breeding.
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard - An interesting pairing as the high strength and cheap Dunland characters fight high strength companions.
Unbound Rangers/Twilight Nazgul - UB rangers have high strength companions and a bit of additional frodo protection through Arwen if you get a super powered Enquea, Ringwraith in Twilight with sword, Fell Beast and 3 burdens. Additionally, this and the three hunter decks are the only ones to have Athelas to control some of the "plays on a companion" conditions outside of global condition removal.
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum - Easterlings are less effective at adding burdens vs the RB Rangers, First place we offer a Sam for frodo protection, the Frodo allows for some burden removal, but overall the fellowship is weaker than either of the others in this series.
For previously stated reasons, we need the easterlings/Gollum and Twilight Nazgul decks in this series to prevent cross-breeding between the two strategies.
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons - Both sides add pool that the southrons can use
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors - not a terribly strong fellowship or shadow (probably the weakest on their own in this series, but the fellowship offers a significant amount of Ring Bearer support as well as being the only other place that you can get a Sam. This makes it a tempting choice if you have run into swarming or other direct damage/burdening issues in the previous two series.
Gandalf & Rohan/Berserkers - Rohan exerts the berserkers and makes them a bit stronger, Rohan combines ok with the previous rohan deck and Gandalf provides a little TMAYOD support for the RB.
Experimental fellowships and shadows go here to fill in some holes you may have missed. People will generally be choosing their starter in this series based on where their current holes are. Giving only two options to guarantee sam and 2 options to get gandalf and 2 options to get Aragorn means you have to choose decks that are not necessarily compatible on the shadow side to have some of the best companions in the block.
I guess to sum it all up - we are creating sealed deck starters that should not match the power of constructed decks that follow the themes that people requested in the initial poll to kick this off while not providing one "Best" deck path from series to series. This is a bit of a tall order, and I'm willing to bet we will get some things wrong our first go at it. Heck Decipher definitely did and they were professional game designers, but I'm pretty impressed with what we have come up with thus far and look forward to testing and adjusting it more.
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Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons - Both sides add pool that the southrons can use
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors - not a terribly strong fellowship or shadow (probably the weakest on their own in this series, but the fellowship offers a significant amount of Ring Bearer support as well as being the only other place that you can get a Sam. This makes it a tempting choice if you have run into swarming or other direct damage/burdening issues in the previous two series.
Gandalf & Rohan/Berserkers - Rohan exerts the berserkers and makes them a bit stronger, Rohan combines ok with the previous rohan deck and Gandalf provides a little TMAYOD support for the RB.
I'd like to propose that we swap Southrons to the Gandy/Rohan deck and Berserkers to the Elf deck. I feel like it makes a lot more sense, the Free Peoples sides are strong against those respective shadows. Rohan will exert the Southrons to prevent flanking attack and Southron Spear, and have some healing capabilities, and Elves in TTT feed off of minion wounds. What do you think?
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We'll see if posting 3 replays works - all vs. bigredmf
Hobbits vs S2S
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$6wf18dhxjygjrcev
Hobbits didn't give much twilight and it made it hard for the southrons to do much to them. Smeagol was great for burning through the deck and the hobbits were quite resilient.
Some minor changes were made to each deck to give some Frodo protection.
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Hobbits vs. Rohan
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$10fbmyssyn9if7vs
I didn't modify the Rohan at all. It had issues until it got gandalf and the recycling ally out, but by that point the hobbits were running all the way to Isengard.
(copy and paste the full link below)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY
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Rohan vs. S2S
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$ukk27xc82xkqcnq6
Decent game. Gandalf was late arriving, but rohan worked pretty well. I made a few mistakes with the berserkers, but they seemed to do ok.
Overall thoughts - rohan likely shouldn't have the bows. They are just too good at what they do, especially if they can be recycled over and over.
I think that 2x Uruk-Hai Rampage is good. Not too overpowered, and very situationally good, but not completely game changing. The fact that it costs 3 twilight which could be used for minions makes it pretty balanced.
These feel like series 3 decks, but are pretty fun overall.
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Series 1 - TinkerT vs. Merrick_H - Gandalf & Dwarves/Sauron vs. Rohan/Archery
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$beblw70q6ue7i3bf
Really good game. Came down to who had what cards at the end, otherwise it was back and forth. An early "I'd make you squeak" forced exertions onto other companions and one of my healing allies was discarded slowing down the healing side of the deck. Pretty good game. The Archery shadow can generate a ton of wounds at select sites if there is enough twilight and the sauron orcs can be beasts.
I think that Rohan has enough companions and possessions, even though I was feeling a bit squeezed at that beginning. They came at pretty much the right time and Theoden's ability was very nice.
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Merrick_H vs. bigredmf UB rangers/Nazgul vs RBR/Easterlings
2 games - I'll post the two replays in separate posts.
Game 1:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$ulc00slqv95fnwj9
Determined that the UBR really need to start Faramir or get him early if you suspect you are playing against easterlings. He shuts them down HARD once he gets a sword.
First game I had horrible fellowship draws, the second I had decent ones and that made ALL the difference in the world. Faramir was the game changer.
After the second game we decided that we should swap out 2 cards in the easterling deck for pillagers. We decided on cutting 2 Easterling Axeman for 2x Easterling Pillager. The deck list in the first post has been updated.
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Merrick_H vs. bigredmf UB rangers/Nazgul vs RBR/Easterlings
Game 2 replay:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$0ds6lxlb0biul1qo
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bigredmf vs Merrick_H - RBR/Easterlings vs. Knights/Dunland
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$wzuvhbb33d138mfd
I was expecting a bloodbath, but I got some lucky draws that kept me alive (behold the power of Elendil's Valor at site 5)
The rangers feel pretty well at home and the burdening power of the easterlings was somewhat muted due to the semi-choke of not drawing companions.
The Ranger's Bows are going to be VERY powerful vs. dunland until such time as Bound by Rage gets onto the table, but dunland didn't feel completely outclassed.
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I'm liking what I'm seeing with all of these play tests.
While we are able to see that some fellowship or shadows have a stronger base than others, the variation in wins is satisfactory I think.
I don't think we've seen one deck get completely obliterated by another so far, and if its come close to that, we've made adaptions.
I think the Easterling Pillager was a really good outside card addition to the mix, as its too dangerous to use Enquea.
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Durins Heir - I would like to address something that seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding about this process. This is my personal opinion, so please take it as it is. You are thinking as a passionate player and as a constructed deck designer. You are trying to create the most efficient and powerful constructed decks that you can from the card pool available while limiting yourself to commons and uncommons...
Sorry for this long absense... I had computer and health problems I just couldn't circumvent. But I'm able again.
You aimed with accuracy when said I'm a passionate constructed deck designer, and I understand that's not what we need right now. But if this Revised TS Sealed is meant to be in the spirit of Revised Movie, decks should be in the midpoint between a Poorman's powerful constructed deck and Decipher's lame basic starters. Thus, powerful constructed proposals may be nerfed until reach that desired midpoint.
Let me explain it with some past examples: when we were starting the drafts there were few available Shadow options to dismiss, so those we had found OP were nerfed instead of ditched. After empirical observation (that old Galilean thing...) the Hate and Arrows original draft proved to be a Gatling Gun with those 3x Moria Archer Troop and 2x OoYMDT, and Sauron Trackers with 3x Orc Patrol, 4x UTWE and 3x IMYS and 2x Gate Sentry were just too much; In Twilight was ripped from Twilight Nazgul before testing (and even Nazgul Sword at that moment)...
It has been done before. We can nerf a deck until it gets a desirable amount of weakness:
1. Gandalf TMAYOD + Ents: If the problem with Ents is overpopullation, we can reduce the Ent count to 4 and even discard Host of Fangorn; if the problem is Ent Moot, it can be replaced with a temporary event pump or even with non-pump tricks for Hobbits (Meant to Be Alone, Good Work, Kept Safe) or Gandalf (Intimidate, Long I Fell, Keep Your Forked Tongue... even Treachery Deeper Than You Know or Risk A Little Light). Let that ol' Galilean thing tell us when to stop crippling, but not before...
If the problem with Gandalf is having him too early, 2 copies instead of 3 can be enough nerfing. Starting an Unhasty Ent can help to cycle out those Wizard tricks while there's no Wizard. Gandalf has powerful tricks so I added only 1 of each selected (except for pumps), and dismissed those OP table sweepers: Sleep Caradhras and Deep in Thought. Keep in mind this: Gandalf's events require too many card slots to be added, thus coupling with another culture can be very difficult (while keeping a small deck) and would let most tricks out most of the time.
Gandalf TMAYOD can merge well with Ents (as far as we weaken them enough), as the latter don't mix well with anything except UB Hobbits: you can't couple well Ents with Dwarves, Elves, Gondor... If we include a Gandalf TMAYOD + Rohan deck, both parts will be useful for too many coupling purposes... You can splash Brego and Horse of Rohan on any Gondor or Three Hunters deck and use Rohan allies to play those mounts (and pump/heal) instead of Rohan companions, AND aid with Gandalf's extremely useful TMAYOD.
2. Valiant + Allies Rohan: No one has pointed out any OP problem in my draft except for LUBS (I know it must have more), that card may be removed. Nor anyone has tested it; it has only 2 event pumps and 2 (reusable) ally pumps instead of those 6 event pumps of the Rohan Allies deck, thus it should be stable but not OP at skirmishes... Rohirrim Bow has proved to be too strong, so it should be replaced in every Rohan draft. May be changed to Rohirrim Javelin for non-directed archery, or Heavy Chain + Rohirrim Shield for protection/healing, or even pumps or regroup events...
My draft couples better with Gondor or Elves into Mounted themes: Leod and Weland, 2x Well Stored and Horse of Rohan instead of Rider's Mount... Merging both Rohan themes into one single deck would not only allow us to include one additional different theme (Gandalf), but improve coupling potential and have a better Rohan Serie 1 deck (nerfing it to prevent the feared OP property)...
What we should do is TEST these drafts I propose instead of just fear and speculate. These just can't be worse than those OP first tries at Sauron Grind and Moria/Uruk Archery... And we came victorious after nerfing them.
There's an awesome resource for crowd control we haven't talked about: Ulaire Nertea, MoDG. Excessive companions = Key minions come back to the table: Goblin Runner, Moria Archer Troop, Deathless Lord, Twilight Enquea, Morgul Skulker, Gollum, Easterling Pillager... If every Shadow deck in Serie 1 had 1x Nertea, MoDG (just as 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB in each FP side), to vomit each companion in hand would be much less atractive. And consider the fact Nertea needs 5 companions instead of 6, just as StMTN...
I just can't like the idea of having to choose Gondor, Gondor or Gondor at Serie 2. Not only prevents the couplings, but forces non-Gondor players to choose Gondor cards instead of something useful (as a Dwarf player it annoys me a little). Besides, you said those Gondorian themes can't couple easily, so what's the risk of having 2 Gondor decks in Serie 2 (with Gandalf as 3rd choice) and 1 in Serie 3? Boromir, Steward's Heir can use RB or UB Ranger events/possessions without many problems, and UB Rangers can share plain-ranger cards (Gondor's Vengeance, NSttS, Pathfinder, SotNK) with the RB ones... that would be helpful but not OP. I'd leave RB Rangers at the 3rd Serie.
Experimental fellowships and shadows go here to fill in some holes you may have missed. People will generally be choosing their starter in this series based on where their current holes are. Giving only two options to guarantee sam and 2 options to get gandalf and 2 options to get Aragorn means you have to choose decks that are not necessarily compatible on the shadow side to have some of the best companions in the block.
Maybe we should give 2 deck choices with Smeagol. RB Rangers + Smeagol and 2 or 3 tricks for him = truthful RB Companions... It's just an unrefined idea.
I think the work we have by now is much better than Revised Movie Sealed... new fresh ideas, wider representation, better coupling between decks...
I'm glad to be back. Hope to be useful with the remaining objectives.
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What we should do is TEST these drafts I propose instead of just fear and speculate. These just can't be worse than those OP first tries at Sauron Grind and Moria/Uruk Archery... And we came victorious after nerfing them.
Regarding this, I don't think anyone is worried of testing your decks for fear of overpowered strategies. A good chunk of the standing decks were your ideas, and they were great!
I think what is happening now is that the majority is comfortable with what we have and are ready to move forward in development. There's still some work to be done before these are ready and it would be nice to have this ready for launch at some point during the upcoming Movie Sealed, so that we can prep to play it right after :)
Basically, the sooner we get everything to MarcinS, the more time he will have to upload it all...and I need time to script the finalized deck lists and photoshop the custom starter boxes. I'm still hoping to playtest a little, but the bulk of my free time will start shifting to those two things so that we can get it ready :)
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Regarding this, I don't think anyone is worried of testing your decks for fear of overpowered strategies. A good chunk of the standing decks were your ideas, and they were great!
Neither do I think anyone is worried of testing my decks for fear of overpowered strategies, but I sensed some fear and reluctance of possibly overpowered decks without even thinking about testing and nerfing processes... Those Ents can be nerfed very well... removing Ent Moot and that 10 strenght Host of Fangorn, and leaving only 4 Ents in the whole deck (instead of 6 Ents without the Unhasty keyword in that EoF starter)...
Let me illustrate it with some quotations...
Now, I am against Ents because they are just too strong for Sealed imo. I too think this of TT Sealed. Making an Ents starter deck was a big mistake back then...
Yeah...really only the first two series of the Towers sealed league are interesting due to this...that and Southron Commander really isn't effective as crowd control when you pack 15 to 16 companions per deck. They just end up helping you cycle in new companions with no wounds.
Gandalf was a very powerful Maiar. He took on and defeated a Balrog. He fought the Necromancer of Mirkwood with the White Council. He is a very powerful support character. Having a deck dedicated to him, particularly when he is primarily a toolbox support character is right out from a deck design perspective.
Here we count with more powerful crowd control cards: Easterling Pillager and Shotgun Enquea can wreak havoc to an Ents deck... And please folks, comment about that Nertea, MoDG idea. I really think 1x per deck in 1st Serie can be a powerful (but not OP) universal crowd control option...
Gandalf's tricks may be selected to prevent them from being OP. 1x of each and no condition sweeping ones (Sleep Caradhras and Deep in Thought) is another nerfing rule we can implement... and remember those tricks need many card slots, and will clog the hand in absense of the Wizard himself. And TESTING, that will separate speculation from facts, and lead us through the right path...
I think what is happening now is that the majority is comfortable with what we have and are ready to move forward in development. There's still some work to be done before these are ready and it would be nice to have this ready for launch at some point during the upcoming Movie Sealed, so that we can prep to play it right after :)
Basically, the sooner we get everything to MarcinS, the more time he will have to upload it all...and I need time to script the finalized deck lists and photoshop the custom starter boxes. I'm still hoping to playtest a little, but the bulk of my free time will start shifting to those two things so that we can get it ready :)
I know most of us (that is, everyone minus me ;)) are comfortable with the way things are right now and I feel some fear of delaying the whole project with changes of little necessity. But I don't see those points as unnecessary, and can't just remain still without some last defense of them: 1) Lack of Ent representation, 2) No Gandalf centered deck (just 5 cards in a Rohan one), and 3) Only Gondor options at Serie 2... I ain't asking for more. And the project can advance without those incorporations, I won't be a fool blocking democratic decisions, but really would love to see some testing prior to ditching them...
I believe many players will say "What!? Only Gondor decks?", "They could have made a better effort with Gandalf" or "So many Gondor options and no place for Ents?"...
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Regarding your point about Nertea: he is the ultimate in crowd control, but I also think he is a little too good at what he does. The real tipping point as far as fellowship side is 6 companions due to the 8-card hand that a shadow player can have. Nertea punishes 5 companions. Granted there isn't likely to be a lot of twilight out there if you are only playing 5 companions, but he does punish 5 companions and is even more powerful at later sites than at the beginning of the game. I think that we should focus our crowd control on 6 companions at this point.
With respect to your pushing for an ent deck, I think that we have seen that an ent deck, particularly when paired with gandalf is very powerful, regardless of how much it is nerfed. The fact that you have 8-10 base strength high vitality companions makes them hard to kill and hard to swarm. Additionally Ents were not one of the highest voted fellowships in the poll. I realize that this same argument can be made against some of the shadow choices that were made, however we were also looking, as was said earlier to increase the variety in fellowships/shadows and usability of the card pool. Having the two different flavors of Rohan gives people two opportunities to get two different gandalfs while having the chance to pull additional gandalfs in the boosters while not making those decks the obvious choice.
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Two different games with dmaz - hobbit & Smeagol/rohirrim traitors deck vs. Rohan & Gandalf/Berserkers.
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$tos0x2dh4mu0xgix
Game 1 I forgot to do some swapping for the hobbit swords so it was somewhat lopsided. Shadow never really came together either. We took warning on the Rohirrim Bow and decided to give it another go. I think that the berserkers are pretty strong, but not overly strong. The biggest thing they have going for them is that they may be able to get stops if they can get a minion to stick and a rampage out.
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Game 2
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$igf2mt8scck5507y
Shadow really took off and killing Gandalf made all the difference. That opened him up to swarm. I don't think that the Rohirrim Traitors shadow will do well on its own, but in combination with other shadows it could be VERY good.
The hobbits still didn't fight that well as the berserkers were just a bit too strong, but they didn't crush the hobbits either.
We'll have to see what combos we can come up with from the series 1-3 decks to see how it all plays together.
We did decide to change out the 2x rohirrim bow for 2x Rohirrim Javelin. Directed archery is just a bit too much.
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2 games with bigredmf with Series 1/2 decks. I took The Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers and RBR/Easterlings, he took The Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers and Knights/Dunland
They were interesting games and there are some powerful combos out there. Gorn from S1 Hunters is VERY powerful, especially if he gets set up with a sword early.
I can't recommend any changes at this point, but we'll keep our eyes open. Watch the replays to see what you think and let me know if you have any insights.
Game 1
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$iubnibwa73u03o7v
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Game 2:
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$zg8xizl4t7iyep4a
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Also played vs. dmaz I chose the same pairing and used the other shadow. dmaz chose Gandwarf/Sauron Tracker and Knights/Dunland
Very interesting game. The Dunland minions are great filler and they are very good at clearing a hand of good cards.
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$8u1ohdrfemrnnyc4
A risky double cost dmaz greatly at site 6. TNMBF was effective crowd control late game and it was not an easy victory by any stretch of the imagination.
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Regarding your point about Nertea: he is the ultimate in crowd control, but I also think he is a little too good at what he does. The real tipping point as far as fellowship side is 6 companions due to the 8-card hand that a shadow player can have. Nertea punishes 5 companions. Granted there isn't likely to be a lot of twilight out there if you are only playing 5 companions, but he does punish 5 companions and is even more powerful at later sites than at the beginning of the game. I think that we should focus our crowd control on 6 companions at this point.
I was just giving an additional idea for crowd control, but you are right, we should focus on punishing 6 or more companions... I just thought Nertea would be an awesome counter for that companion vomiting many players do at site 7 or 8...
By the way, as things are right now every deck has 5 companions besides Frodo, except for RB Rangers (6) and Smeagol & Hobbits (only 4). Therefore, by Serie 3 each player would have 11 or more companions to play (discounting repeated unique ones)... Thus, that common move of piling companions in hand and playing them all at 7 or 8 for a last throw will be very usual, unless we give strong crowd control presence. There Nertea, MoDG could come in handy...
With respect to your pushing for an ent deck, I think that we have seen that an ent deck, particularly when paired with gandalf is very powerful, regardless of how much it is nerfed. The fact that you have 8-10 base strength high vitality companions makes them hard to kill and hard to swarm. Additionally Ents were not one of the highest voted fellowships in the poll. I realize that this same argument can be made against some of the shadow choices that were made, however we were also looking, as was said earlier to increase the variety in fellowships/shadows and usability of the card pool.
Most Ents without Ent Moot would have 8 strength base, just as a mounted Elite Rider, or a Knight or generic Rohirrim with a weapon. There are only 2 pumps for Ents in TS or Movie Block, and both have a strong overpopullation peril: Boomed and Trumpeted requires to spot as many UB Hobbits as you can (we all know Merry & Pippin are awful fighters), and Roused requires the same with Ents (and an ugly exertion). TMAYOD can be a nice support, but Gandalf can get exhausted very quickly in absense of Ent Moot (and vitality enhancements: Ent Draught, Narya, his Staff).
Additionally, there are only 2 cards that can give them Damage bonuses to clear the table: Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest and Boomed and Trumpeted, while Dwarves, Rohan and even RB Rangers have lots of possessions, conditions, events for that purpose. Even with Ent Moot won't overwhelm anything...
They have high vitality but no healing mechanism; Gandalf can help with that (Have Patience). And many exertion requirements: Roused, Crack Into Rubble, Treebeard and Birchseed's ability, Unhasty circumventing...
A last point: pool. They flood the twilight pool like no one else.
Considering all that, and the general need of strong crowd control (as pointed above), any nerfed Ents deck won't be more threatening than a full possession Rohirrim deck: those Damage+1, exerting, 9 or 10 base strength mounted guys with lots of (very powerful) available pumps plus TMAYOD... clearing everything in their path. And healing over and over again.
Having the two different flavors of Rohan gives people two opportunities to get two different gandalfs while having the chance to pull additional gandalfs in the boosters while not making those decks the obvious choice.
The only significant different flavor between those Rohan decks is completely extrinsic: Gandalf + TMAYOD. Just try the Valiant deck without that (add other Rohan things in his place), and you all will agree there's little to vary when we talk about Rohan alone...
TMAYOD would be a resource available to Rohan if we include a deck for Gandalf. And the newly space Gandalf leaves in the Valiant deck can be used to merge those two themes into one deck, as my draft illustrates. There's no need to build another one; however those LUBS must be removed, and Rohirrim Bow replaced with pumps, Rohirrim Javelin or other possessions (Heavy Chain or Rohirrim Shield)... And nerf it further if is needed.
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I was just giving an additional idea for crowd control, but you are right, we should focus on punishing 6 or more companions... I just thought Nertea would be an awesome counter for that companion vomiting many players do at site 7 or 8...
By the way, as things are right now every deck has 5 companions besides Frodo, except for RB Rangers (6) and Smeagol & Hobbits (only 4). Therefore, by Serie 3 each player would have 11 or more companions to play (discounting repeated unique ones)... Thus, that common move of piling companions in hand and playing them all at 7 or 8 for a last throw will be very usual, unless we give strong crowd control presence. There Nertea, MoDG could come in handy...
The only time I really see "companion vomiting" is generally in Towers Sealed is series 3/4 after you get ents and can cycle through them easily with the discarding hobbits and Southron Commander. Even then it can be VERY risky due to the nature of the sauron swarm capabilities. Outside of Rohan/Gondor (and those decks don't merge too well as has been said before) going to > 6 companions and straying outside of 2 cultures is going to make the Orc Insurgent super powered. Additionally, if you watch my last replay, I couldn't go to >6 comps due to TNMBF being on the table! People underrate that card severely. It has won me a TON of games in sealed because it allows me to slow down my opponent and set the pace of the engagement. Finally, if you are hording companions in your hand to drop at 7/8 and run, you likely aren't going through your deck that quickly and are going to have issues slowing down your opponent. That also doesn't account for cards like the Orc Inquisitor and the Dunland discard dudes that mess with your hand. They are seriously annoying.
Most Ents without Ent Moot would have 8 strength base, just as a mounted Elite Rider, or a Knight or generic Rohirrim with a weapon. There are only 2 pumps for Ents in TS or Movie Block, and both have a strong overpopullation peril: Boomed and Trumpeted requires to spot as many UB Hobbits as you can (we all know Merry & Pippin are awful fighters), and Roused requires the same with Ents (and an ugly exertion). TMAYOD can be a nice support, but Gandalf can get exhausted very quickly in absense of Ent Moot (and vitality enhancements: Ent Draught, Narya, his Staff).
Additionally, there are only 2 cards that can give them Damage bonuses to clear the table: Treebeard, Guardian of the Forest and Boomed and Trumpeted, while Dwarves, Rohan and even RB Rangers have lots of possessions, conditions, events for that purpose. Even with Ent Moot won't overwhelm anything...
They have high vitality but no healing mechanism; Gandalf can help with that (Have Patience). And many exertion requirements: Roused, Crack Into Rubble, Treebeard and Birchseed's ability, Unhasty circumventing...
A last point: pool. They flood the twilight pool like no one else.
Warning: I'm going to be VERY blunt here. I don't want to have a Gandalf support deck. Gandalf is too good of a character to have a deck built around him. Frankly, I think that providing Gandalf in the Gandwarf deck with Have Patience, Sleep Caradhras and 2x Mysterious Wizard and a Barliman Butterbur for fetching one of those back is borderline too powerful. I want to give people the capability of picking a deck with Gandalf in it if they get some really good Gandalf cards and no Gandalf in their boosters, but I don't want to outfit them with Gandalf and all of his toolbox because with all his tools he is too powerful of a character for a sealed environment.
Ents are interesting, but we have an ent starter in the Towers Sealed league already. We don't want this to feel like Towers Sealed all over again.
Considering all that, and the general need of strong crowd control (as pointed above), any nerfed Ents deck won't be more threatening than a full possession Rohirrim deck: those Damage+1, exerting, 9 or 10 base strength mounted guys with lots of (very powerful) available pumps plus TMAYOD... clearing everything in their path. And healing over and over again.
I agree with dmaz - this is an opportunity to make Rohan somewhat powerful, which isn't the case in Towers Sealed. Keep in mind, none of the shadows or fellowships mesh perfectly, which means that each player is going to have to make hard choices - "do I pick deck x because it somewhat complements my fellowship or do I pick deck Y because it has some really good cards that complement my booster pulls?"
Good deck builders generally keep their decks very close to 30/30 and rarely as high as 35/35 for the sake of consistency. I think you will find that people who make their decks too big are going to have a hard time pulling off the awesome combos that they see in the current deck pairings. This wasn't so much of an issue with the original starter decks as you had extra card slots since they were 60-card decks with 11 of them being sites, frodo and a ring. With the packages we are putting out there, they are already finely tuned at 30 cards per side. Disrupting that balance too much will make for inefficient deck building and I think people will start to realize that.
The only significant different flavor between those Rohan decks is completely extrinsic: Gandalf + TMAYOD. Just try the Valiant deck without that (add other Rohan things in his place), and you all will agree there's little to vary when we talk about Rohan alone...
TMAYOD would be a resource available to Rohan if we include a deck for Gandalf. And the newly space Gandalf leaves in the Valiant deck can be used to merge those two themes into one deck, as my draft illustrates. There's no need to build another one; however those LUBS must be removed, and Rohirrim Bow replaced with pumps, Rohirrim Javelin or other possessions (Heavy Chain or Rohirrim Shield)... And nerf it further if is needed.
Have you played with the two decks at all? Have you play tested them or are you just looking at them on paper? They play completely differently. With one, you play everything up front, dump a lot of twilight and attempt to blast your opponent (Rohan Allies) We nerfed it to some degree by pulling mounts and weapons to dial it back a bit. The TMAYOD/Valiant Rohan deck holds onto possessions until the maneuver phase where they heal Eowyn/Allies and dump a lot of pool, making a double move a little more risky for the sake of a much easier single move. Combining the two decks will be hard to do effectively, AND they have a HUGE weakness to burden adding since they don't have ANY ringbound companions outside of Frodo.
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http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$kklfzos4uhykp2vu
dmaz vs Merrick_H Gandwarf/Sauron & Knights/Dunland vs. Rohan/Archery & UB Rangers/Nazgul
The original archery deck needs some form of anti-6. Period.
With the amount of time that dmaz spent above 6 companions and having 9 in the deck to be meat shields, there definitely needs to be some anti-6 in the archery deck as there is none now. I would recommend dropping a Uruk crossbow Troop for 1 enquea.
Otherwise it went pretty well. Very few mistakes made by either party. Rohan healing isn't that bad and the dwarves messed with the draw deck. Not too many possessions were drawn, so it seems pretty reasonable.
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The only time I really see "companion vomiting" is generally in Towers Sealed is series 3/4 after you get ents and can cycle through them easily with the discarding hobbits and Southron Commander. Even then it can be VERY risky due to the nature of the sauron swarm capabilities. Outside of Rohan/Gondor (and those decks don't merge too well as has been said before) going to > 6 companions and straying outside of 2 cultures is going to make the Orc Insurgent super powered. Additionally, if you watch my last replay, I couldn't go to >6 comps due to TNMBF being on the table! People underrate that card severely. It has won me a TON of games in sealed because it allows me to slow down my opponent and set the pace of the engagement. Finally, if you are hording companions in your hand to drop at 7/8 and run, you likely aren't going through your deck that quickly and are going to have issues slowing down your opponent. That also doesn't account for cards like the Orc Inquisitor and the Dunland discard dudes that mess with your hand. They are seriously annoying.
I see it frequently in King Block Sealed, even sometimes in Serie 1. But you are right with Orc Inquisitor and the Dunlendings... it was just an additional option I saw.
By the way, Rohan and Gondor can merge a little if you use An Honorable Charge and mounted theme allies (Leod and Weland)... just a little.
Warning: I'm going to be VERY blunt here. I don't want to have a Gandalf support deck. Gandalf is too good of a character to have a deck built around him. Frankly, I think that providing Gandalf in the Gandwarf deck with Have Patience, Sleep Caradhras and 2x Mysterious Wizard and a Barliman Butterbur for fetching one of those back is borderline too powerful. I want to give people the capability of picking a deck with Gandalf in it if they get some really good Gandalf cards and no Gandalf in their boosters, but I don't want to outfit them with Gandalf and all of his toolbox because with all his tools he is too powerful of a character for a sealed environment.
If we limit carefully the powerful tools (Have Patience, Roll of Thunder, Task Was Not Done, Depart Silently, Wielder of the Flame), and give more presence to small or situation-dependant tricks like Strength of Spirit, Risk A Little Light, Unknown Perils, Treachery Deeper Than You Know, Speak "Friend" and Enter, Keep Your Forked Tongue, You Cannot Pass!...
I just cannot see the problem here. Sleep Caradhras and Deep in Thought can sweep the table, then let's remove them from this draft. If TMAYOD is the problem, why should we include it in a Rohan deck but not in a Gandalf one?
The Gandalf presence in the Valiant Rohan deck is far more powerful than the one in Gandwarves... Sleep Caradhras is the only strong card in favour of Dwarves.
And please remember: Gandalf is an event-based character. That means 2 things: he needs strong presence in a deck to have many tricks and cover many threats, and those tricks can very well clog the hand. In Fellowship Sealed most players ditch Intimidate or Strength of Spirit at regroup not for being a useless card, but simply 'cause they can't use it at the moment. 2x copies of him may be enough punishment for having too many of his events on a mixed deck, unless you pull more copies from boosters...
Ents are interesting, but we have an ent starter in the Towers Sealed league already. We don't want this to feel like Towers Sealed all over again.
This just can't have the feel of Towers Block Sealed, by no means, even if we did a copy-paste of EoF's Witch King deck: this format is combined with Fellowship Block metagame... thus it's crowd control options. And this Ents deck won't have 6 non-Unhasty Ents but a maximum of 4, and half must be Unhasty... neither will have those discardable Merry & Pippin. It's very different from many points of view. And won't be clearing the table often, unlike Rohan, Dwarves or RB Rangers....
I agree with dmaz - this is an opportunity to make Rohan somewhat powerful, which isn't the case in Towers Sealed. Keep in mind, none of the shadows or fellowships mesh perfectly, which means that each player is going to have to make hard choices - "do I pick deck x because it somewhat complements my fellowship or do I pick deck Y because it has some really good cards that complement my booster pulls?"
Good deck builders generally keep their decks very close to 30/30 and rarely as high as 35/35 for the sake of consistency. I think you will find that people who make their decks too big are going to have a hard time pulling off the awesome combos that they see in the current deck pairings. This wasn't so much of an issue with the original starter decks as you had extra card slots since they were 60-card decks with 11 of them being sites, frodo and a ring. With the packages we are putting out there, they are already finely tuned at 30 cards per side. Disrupting that balance too much will make for inefficient deck building and I think people will start to realize that....
.... Combining the two decks will be hard to do effectively, AND they have a HUGE weakness to burden adding since they don't have ANY ringbound companions outside of Frodo.
Decks MUST have some weakness, burden shadows are the main natural threat to any Rohan deck. In Constructed Movie Block people use Sam, SoH, but that should be included in the No-no card list...
(In the first post of this thread, you can add the No-no card list, for public utility... Add Filibert Bolger too...)
You can easily combine those 2 decks very effectively in a small build. It took me just a while to build this with the pre-existing decks... Just add the 5-card TMAYOD pack (2x Gandy, 2x TMAYOD and 1x Staff), remove redundant stuff...
(32 cards)
1x Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund (starting)
1x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall (starting)
1x Household Guard
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Brego
2x Horse of Rohan or Rider's Mount
1x Herugrim
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Javelin
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
1x Armory
3x An Honorable Charge
1x Have Patience
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
2x Well Stored
You can easlily trim it even more if we consider TMAYOD covers Frodo protection very well and Armory isn't necessary.... 31 or even 30 cards.
2x Well Stored and Eomer provide strong healing to those 4 allies. You can replay those Javelins (or any Bow you pull) with Ecglaf over and over again, for that purpose Guma can heal him a second time per turn.
3x An Honorable Charge, Hlafwine and 2x TMAYOD for pumping... Weland can heal Gandalf if mounted (twice if Guma heals Weland), and Hlafwine can be healed each turn too. Thus there won't be much need of event pumps...
You can build exacly the same deck (except for Eomer, SSoT) coupling my Rohan Valiant + Allies draft with any Gandalf deck at Serie 2 we build, as far as it has 2x TMAYOD, 1x Wizard Staff, 1x Have Patience and at least 2x Gandalf, The White Wizard.
I too agree with Dmaz, we have the chance to give Rohan a great deck here. Look at the merged draft I made, it IS powerful, maybe to the point we need to nerf it. And this coupled possibility with Trust Me support is even more powerful...
By the way, that Uruk Besiegers/Valiant Rohirrim couples very well with the Ally Rohan/Archery in the Shadow side too: Uruk Crossbow Troop feeds machines... Saruman's Ambition... Hate and Anger.
Have you played with the two decks at all? Have you play tested them or are you just looking at them on paper? They play completely differently. With one, you play everything up front, dump a lot of twilight and attempt to blast your opponent (Rohan Allies) We nerfed it to some degree by pulling mounts and weapons to dial it back a bit. The TMAYOD/Valiant Rohan deck holds onto possessions until the maneuver phase where they heal Eowyn/Allies and dump a lot of pool, making a double move a little more risky for the sake of a much easier single move.
Actually I watched some of the first replays, and have experience with the Eowyn starter in Towers Sealed (which works the way you describe)... I can see the difference, but they aren't completely different: they heal companions, play possessions, exert minions, pump fighters and clean the table very often for a second move. No, I haven't tested these exact decks by myself, if that matters...
There's always the option of throwing every possession in fellowship phase instead of maneuver, and you can't set up Elite Rider or Eomer that way... you need to transfer possessions with a class to play another one with the same class on the same character, and that means twilight. In abstract, rarely you will add more than [4] in the maneuver phase (as only Herugrim and Horse of Rohan cost more than [1])... That's significative but not a HUGE difference. It's an advantage really, and no one forces you to not play at fellowship...
There's a way of reducing that maneuver twilight to almost (0): Gandalf's Wisdom. It's not part of my interest that combo anyway...
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I'm fine with Rohan taking 2 separate series to get built up to the deck that you show there. That is one reason why they are in series 1 and series 3. You are forced to commit yourself to them early when there may be better shadows out there. If you wind up seeing a lot of Rohan in the first series, by all means play Nazgul or Easterlings in the next series.
Again, I don't want there to be a Gandalf toolbox deck. I want people to have to chose to take Gandalf because they have awesome cards for him rather than because there are awesome Gandalf cards in the deck. I want there to have to be hard choices as to which deck you build around because of the cards you pick up, not because of the cards that are inherently in the deck that make it a no-brainer to pick up. Gandalf + tools makes a no brainer situation because he is ultimately splashable in ANY deck that you want to put him in. He is a 4/7/4 companion that can skirmish and has capabilities that when used correctly really give an edge to your deck.
Again - I don't want to give people those capabilities. I'd like to see people design their deck around the cards they get and if it makes sense to pick up Gandalf in a starter because you got some awesome support for him, great!
If you design an Ent Deck, you would realistically have to put it in series 3 because that is where most of the support comes up. By that point people would have a pretty wide range of cards and strategies. I don't want someone to pick up a Gandalf deck just because it gives them Gandalf + toolbox. Realistically, you can drop gandalf to a 6-7 card toolbox that will hose most people.
2x gandalf
1-2x Trust Me as You Once Did
1x Barliman Butterbur PP
1x Have Patience
1x Sleep Caradhras OR GST
We are darn close to that in the current Gandwarf deck, which is why I'm on the fence about recommending that we cut Barliman. That way if you want Trust Me as You Once Did, you have to go Gandwarf/Rohan series 3.
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2 games with bigredmf his Rohan/Archery & RBR/Easterling & Gollum deck combo vs my Rohan/Archery & UBR/Nazgul combo
Only game 2 is shown as game 1 was a bad blowout at 5 because of a nice little swarm
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$x66iii9itm2a7vtv
This only confirms my suspicion that the Rohan/archery deck needs access to Enquea.
Made the change to the deck lists. Dropped 1 Uruk Crossbow Troop and added 1x Enquea LoM
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2 games with bigredmf his Rohan/Archery & RBR/Easterling & Gollum deck combo vs my Rohan/Archery & UBR/Nazgul combo
Only game 2 is shown as game 1 was a bad blowout at 5 because of a nice little swarm
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$x66iii9itm2a7vtv
This only confirms my suspicion that the Rohan/archery deck needs access to Enquea.
Made the change to the deck lists. Dropped 1 Uruk Crossbow Troop and added 1x Enquea LoM
The Constructed version I played some months ago had that problem too... 36 cards and even heavier archery, but prior to adding 2x Shotgun Enquea it lost half of the times. After that change, it killed almost everything. At site 9 often Frodo faced alone 7 or more minions...
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Proposal:
Let's work with Durns Heir's new S2S list and see how powerful it is.
I'd also propose the following rearrangement of fellowships:
Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Gandalf & Dwarves/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Rohan Allies/Moria & Isengard Archery
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
This solves some of the issues of having Gondor be the only choice in Series 2. It also means that people can choose Rohan both series, but they miss out on ALL burden removal and condition removal. They are great skirmishers and have some healing potential, but are really weak on the burden front without a lucky pull of Faramir or some other RB companion.
Thoughts?
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I posted this on the other thread, it should be discussed here...
Just look at this scenario: Serie 2, choose to aid Faramir's Rangers in their errand into Ithilien Forest, help Knights of Osgiliath to recover and defend their long lost ruined capitol, or join an Elven Army and stand firm at Helm's Gate... EPIC.
Actually your arrangement shares the same basis as mine, so very well could be Gandalf & Rohan in Serie 2 instead of Naith Elves... Equally epic.
That way Naith Elves & Gimli would be in Serie 3 where they can get better booster pulls (Realms of Elf Lords and EoF have plenty of good elven stuff), and the deck shouldn't need too much nerfing from it's original draft (Lend Us Your Aid would be out anyway).
I still think there should be a Gandalf + Ents deck, but with this last input and discussion I started to like that idea of Rohan and Gandalf at Serie 2... it reminds me the spirit of the book/movie.
The aspect I dislike of that Rohan & Gandalf deck is the fact Valiant Rohirrim can merge with Ally Rohan quite easily (my Valiant + Villagers draft illustrates that)... then the Gandalf TMAYOD deck should have another theme to merge. Maybe even another Rohan theme... Who knows.
If, hypothetically, we build an Ents & Gandalf deck, it should be in Serie 3 for flavor and booster pulls. Thus the Naith Elves & Gimli deck would fit nicely in Serie 2 instead of Gandalf & Rohan.
Those are two very different scenarios: 1) Gandalf & Rohan at Serie 2, Naith Elves at Serie 3; or 2) Naith Elves at Serie 2, Gandalf + Ents at Serie 3. But in both cases UB Rangers would be moved to Serie 3, solving the 'only Gondor at Serie 2' problem.
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If the Shoulder deck is taking advantage of minion wounds, why wouldn't it be a better pairing with berserkers? The rangers are better at fighting Southrons (Sword of Gondor), so to me these two pairing make more sense. Spitting out twilight in the manuever phase is exactly what Southrons want, so I would NOT consider the Shoulder deck to be "strong" against the Southrons, even though they can move wounds around.
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If the Shoulder deck is taking advantage of minion wounds, why wouldn't it be a better pairing with berserkers? The rangers are better at fighting Southrons (Sword of Gondor), so to me these two pairing make more sense. Spitting out twilight in the manuever phase is exactly what Southrons want, so I would NOT consider the Shoulder deck to be "strong" against the Southrons, even though they can move wounds around.
Naith Shoulders against Berserkers, even more epic! But I'm still trying to find a place for Ents here, ergo Gandy and Treebeard would... only hypothetically... fight those Uruks at Serie 3.
Your reasonings are quite logical, each Free Peoples must fight with some ease its own Shadow, and Gondor fights Southrons better. They can heal (Defender of Minas Tirith, King in Exile and Athelas), win skirmishes and clear the board, choke (quite important against Southrons)...
As UB Rangers will be at Serie 3 along with Smeagol & Hobbits, I think NSttS and ATfNBS can make a great premiere for choking mechanisms...
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Proposal:
Let's work with Durns Heir's new S2S list and see how powerful it is.
I'd also propose the following rearrangement of fellowships:
Proposed Pairings by Series
Serie 1:
Gandalf & Dwarves/Sauron Trackers (Grind)
Rohan Allies/Moria & Isengard Archery
Three Hunters/Uruk Trackers
Serie 2:
Knights/Dunland Discard
Gandalf & Rohan/Twilight Nazgul
Ringbound Companions/Easterlings & Gollum
Serie 3:
Shoulder to Shoulder/Southrons
Hobbits & Smeagol/Rohirrim Traitors
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
This solves some of the issues of having Gondor be the only choice in Series 2. It also means that people can choose Rohan both series, but they miss out on ALL burden removal and condition removal. They are great skirmishers and have some healing potential, but are really weak on the burden front without a lucky pull of Faramir or some other RB companion.
Thoughts?
I'm in support of this :)
At this point in the development, I think we should still be open to tweaking the current decks, and switching certain fellowship/shadow matchups if need be.
I would be against developing entire new decks though. As a few have pointed out, I think we did a good job of representing the decks that got the most interest in the poll.
I think one of the only exceptions was adding the Dunland deck (which not as many people were interested in). But, in this case, it was much more attractive to add some base cards for Dunland rather than pure Moria or Stupid Swarm.
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S2S should be paired with Southrons because the southrons can take advantage of the extra twilight. There is no rule that the fellowship should be able to handle the shadow and it wasn't followed in all of Decipher's starters. We don't even really do it consistently here. How do Hobbits handle Rohirrim traitors well? How do Knights handle Dunland Discard well? How does Gandalf/Rohan handle Twilight Nazgul well? Twilight nazgul love maneuver twilight...
Additionally I don't want to see the VERY natural pairing of both 3-Hunters + Uruk Trackers and S2S + Berserkers. That is too much overlap for my comfort.
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S2S should be paired with Southrons because the southrons can take advantage of the extra twilight. There is no rule that the fellowship should be able to handle the shadow and it wasn't followed in all of Decipher's starters. We don't even really do it consistently here. How do Hobbits handle Rohirrim traitors well? How do Knights handle Dunland Discard well? How does Gandalf/Rohan handle Twilight Nazgul well? Twilight nazgul love maneuver twilight...
Additionally I don't want to see the VERY natural pairing of both 3-Hunters + Uruk Trackers and S2S + Berserkers. That is too much overlap for my comfort.
I agree with your last statement. However in response to your post, in general, it has been mentioned many times over that the freeps side of a deck generally works well against the paired shadow (not the other way around, mind you). There was mention of Wingfoot vs Dunland, Rohan vs Uruks, Gandalf vs Conditions, RBR vs burdens, even UB rangers vs Twilight Nazgul bc they have Athelas. I'd be very surprised if you missed all those posts/comments along the way. I believe you even made a post yourself explaining why we paired the FP and Shadows that we did.
But as I said first, I agree with not making it too easy to combine both FP and Shadow with a single deck choice.
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At this point in the development, I think we should still be open to tweaking the current decks, and switching certain fellowship/shadow matchups if need be.
I would be against developing entire new decks though. As a few have pointed out, I think we did a good job of representing the decks that got the most interest in the poll.
I think one of the only exceptions was adding the Dunland deck (which not as many people were interested in). But, in this case, it was much more attractive to add some base cards for Dunland rather than pure Moria or Stupid Swarm.
According to the poll, actually Ents got 5 votes (same as Rangers) while mounted Rohan got only 2... though Gandalf supported Rohan got 7. Gandalf supported Shire got 5 too... Last Alliance and Help in Doubt and Need got 5 and 9 votes, but aren't viable in absence of rares (they are possible but have little to no possible teamwork, just a bunch of fellows together).
http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,9009.0.html
Some of you kept saying people didn't vote for Ents, while they did. Were you who didn't want presence of Ents, and the arguments are: 1) they have a deck in Towers Sealed and we don't want/need something similar (Ent Moot; 2 discardable UB Hobbits + 6 non-Unhasty Ents = 8 folks + Frodo), and 2) we don't want the noxious effect that deck has in Series 3 & 4 of that Sealed. I firmly believe those arguments aren't valid:
1) We can ditch RB Rangers using the same criterion (Faramir's starter is very similar but not equal)... We can and did build an Ents deck based on Unhasty ones (which get wounds on your fellowship even if they win the skirmish, more if need a pump or damage, even more if they lose), no permanent pumps (steroid-like Ent Moot) and less companions (the last draft has Gandalf, 2 non-discardable UB Hobbits, and only 2 non-Unhasty Ents).
2) Even if we did a lame copy-paste of that lame Ents/Witch King's starter, it couldn't have the same effect by no possible means: the Shadows here are quite different and much more powerful (and clever), and this format includes the crowd control methods of Fellowship Block (and Easterling Pillager as a foreigner)...
I still think we shouldn't include 2 Rohan decks as both merge together effortlessly and are somewhat very reduntant (except for Gandalf)... Even Gandalf Supported Rohan can merge well with both Valiant theme and allies into a single deck. The deck I posted above can illustrate it better: it's 32 cards, but can be reduced to 30 if we remove Armory and 1x An Honorable Charge, and include it in Serie 1 (it has 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x Severed His Bonds). In the place of mounted (ally?) Rohan, which got only 2 votes.
Look to My Valiant-Ally-Mounted-Trustworthy Coming! draft:
(30 cards)
1x Eomer, Sister-son of Theoden
1x Eowyn, Daughter of Eomund (starting)
1x Theoden, King of the Golden Hall (starting)
1x Household Guard
2x Gandalf, The White Wizard
1x Guma, Plains Farmer
1x Ecglaf, Courageous Farmer
1x Hlafwine, Village Farmhand
1x Weland, Smith of the Riddermark
1x Brego
2x Horse of Rohan
1x Herugrim
2x Rider's Spear
2x Rohirrim Javelin
1x Wizard Staff
2x Hobbit Sword
2x An Honorable Charge
1x Have Patience
2x Severed His Bonds
2x Trust Me As You Once Did
2x Well Stored
That would leave room for 1 deck. Rohan + Hard Choice? Gondor + Elves? Ents? Gandalf & Shire?
Thoughts? Counterarguments?
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http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=dmaz$6bts7u9y1fdpo8zd
Regarding the Naith version of S2S, the strength of the deck needs to be in its healing ability rather than its ability to win skirmishes.
As of right now the deck is basically a well-built constructed deck. Regardless of it being Serie 3, starters shouldn't be built in such a way that you have no incentive to swap out cards.
When compared to other starter decks, take note of the Revised Movie ones as well, there are several things that we can do to tone down the deck, while still making it have the "naith" theme.
1. Don't make it so easy for companions to win skirmishes. The deck will already be healing very effectively, as sealed doesn't ever have shadow condition control guaranteed. The power of that gimli with that legolas, in particular is very strong. We should allow people to tap into this by combining with the Three Hunters deck, but NOT as an end all in this deck. Switching him for either Dwarf of Erebor or Lively Combatant will be beneficial for the deck.
2. There are too many unique companions that have great abilities. Starter decks don't thrive on a host of unique companions. Two or three is fairly common, sometimes decks only have one. The companion list should look something like this:
Gimli, DoE or Lively Combatant
Legolas, AoM
Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
Balglin, Elven Warrior
Ordulus, Young Warrior
This 5 should be more than enough. As it's going to be Serie 3, let's give the player some incentive to customize a little from what they pulled from the boosters and other starters. That's half of the fun, and our end goal is to foster creativity and variety as opposed to a bunch of clone decks.
Additionally, using these companions would allow you to still provide a modest combination of Naith bows and Elven Swords without making tanked out companions. You would need to rely on playing your skirmishes right, with events, if you wanted to win. You shouldn't be winning most of the time, but with a big Legolas and S2S you can make use of those abilities to enhance your healing and ultimate survivability. I think the spirit of this deck should be stout survivability rather than minion obliteration.
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Here's a more balanced version of the Naith-S2S deck
You still get the flavor that we were shooting for without the very powerful dynamics that were seen in the most recent draft.
In addition to the changes I listed above, I made these swaps as well:
Dinendal, Silent Scout for Erestor, Chief Advisor to Elrond - We already have two allies with 3 vitality, which is some decent healing or usefulness in skirmishing. To have an additional 3 vitality and the optional dynamics for doubling is a little unnecessary. I think for this sealed, it would be safe to leave Site 6 elf archers to booster pulls. We have already found that the fellowships in these decks are very strong, and its going to be an uphill battle for shadows as it is...The inclusion of site 6 elf archers would be crippling, especially since we have a starter that is making them useful for healing companions, and not just the change for direct wounding.
x2 Stout and Strong for x1 Elven Sword and x1 Hand Axe - We have pumps to help win skirmishes. It wouldn't hurt to give the Elves a little more possession support, since we are toning down their base power (Pengedhel, Naith Warrior was a juggernaut), and this is essentially their "big debut" in the League. If someone pulls some decent Elf companions and wants to go full elf, we should have a little hand weapon support. Hand axe is a decent splash. Helps give Fror a little more chance of not being overwhelmed if the person had not picked the serie 1 dwarf deck and wants to play dwarves.
Here it is. I'll be testing it soon to make sure its not too nerfed, though I think it will stand decently. I really did like the idea of having a little Naith incorporated with S2S.
2x Fror, Gimli's Kinsman
1x Gimli, Lively Combatant (starting)
2x Balglin, Elven Warrior
1x Legolas, Archer of Mirkwood (starting)
1x Ordulus, Young Warrior
1x Grimir, Dwarven Elder
1x Thrarin, Dwarven Smith
1x Erestor, Chief Advisor to Elrond
1x Golradir, Councilor of Imladris
1x Saelbeth, Elven Councilor
1x Dwarven Axe
1x Dwarven Bracers
2x Hand Axe
2x Elven Sword
2x Naith Longbow
2x Khazad Ai-menu
2x Still Draws Breath
2x Feathered
2x Valor
2x Shoulder to Shoulder
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With one Archer and those Naith not adding to the archery total, is Feathered a good idea? Flashing Steel might be a better idea.
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With one Archer and those Naith not adding to the archery total, is Feathered a good idea? Flashing Steel might be a better idea.
Good point. That's a good starter deck card.
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Re-organized S3 decks dmaz vs. Merrick_H (S2S/Southron vs. Unbound Rangers/Berserkers)
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$suyisy3om382no2m
Very good game over all and nothing felt too over powered. The S2S deck works a lot better this way without being too powerful.
I will update the decks in the first post with the updated deck lists and pairing proposals later today.
Additionally, I would like to suggest the following changes:
Series 1
Gandalf & Dwarves
Replace Barliman Butterbur PP with Behold the White Rider
Reason: Giving Gandalf access to Sleep Caradhras and Have Patience is very powerful in sealed. Giving a person access to 1 of each AND a choice of what to pull back is a bit too powerful in a sealed environment with the way the decks are designed. This makes Barliman a "What a great common pull!" that can help determine deck choice rather than just another common. Also, Behold has no spotting requirements and is a support area card that helps Gandalf, so I think it fits well in the deck.
The Three Hunters
Replace Gimli, Unbidden Guest with Gimli Dwarf of Erebor
Reason: This deck already has a the awesome Gandalf signet Aragorn HoE and having a second Gandalf signet companion that can pair VERY well with the Trust Me Deck as well as the S3 Shoulder to Shoulder deck is a bit much in my opinion. We changed out the Gimli in the S2S deck to prevent the focus from being on winning skirmishes and this way there is less direct pairing potential that makes it the best pat to go Three Hunters/Rohan/S2S. Additionally Gimli UG is a common and again can be pulled more easily from boosters, where as Gimli DoE is an uncommon.
Series 2
Rohan & Gandalf/Twilight Nazgul
Cut Heavy Chain, Have Patience, 1x Herugrim to make room for 1x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword
Reason: This is now a series 2 deck and requires the minimum hobbit protection package. I propose cutting those cards as they are duplicates or don't really add much to the deck and to weaken the healing potential somewhat (see my arguments on reducing/not providing the Gandalf Package).
Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.
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Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.
I like Pathfinder and Eregion's Trails. I think Eregion's Trails rather than What Are They is good.
Since the deck does give the option for a fighting Merry, you could splash x1 Halfling Deftness as a pump with a cost (better than just throwing in a Hobbit Intuition I think...those can get really strong).
EDIT: In light of it being matched with Uruks now, I really think at least x1 Armor would be a good addition. Maybe x2 Armor, Eregion's Trails, Pathfinder?
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I'd say 1 armor at most. Don't want them to be too good vs. the Uruks.
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Re-organized S3 decks dmaz vs. Merrick_H (S2S/Southron vs. Unbound Rangers/Berserkers)
http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=Merrick_H$suyisy3om382no2m
Very good game over all and nothing felt too over powered. The S2S deck works a lot better this way without being too powerful.
I will update the decks in the first post with the updated deck lists and pairing proposals later today.
Additionally, I would like to suggest the following changes:
Series 1
Gandalf & Dwarves
Replace Barliman Butterbur PP with Behold the White Rider
Reason: Giving Gandalf access to Sleep Caradhras and Have Patience is very powerful in sealed. Giving a person access to 1 of each AND a choice of what to pull back is a bit too powerful in a sealed environment with the way the decks are designed. This makes Barliman a "What a great common pull!" that can help determine deck choice rather than just another common. Also, Behold has no spotting requirements and is a support area card that helps Gandalf, so I think it fits well in the deck.
The Three Hunters
Replace Gimli, Unbidden Guest with Gimli Dwarf of Erebor
Reason: This deck already has a the awesome Gandalf signet Aragorn HoE and having a second Gandalf signet companion that can pair VERY well with the Trust Me Deck as well as the S3 Shoulder to Shoulder deck is a bit much in my opinion. We changed out the Gimli in the S2S deck to prevent the focus from being on winning skirmishes and this way there is less direct pairing potential that makes it the best pat to go Three Hunters/Rohan/S2S. Additionally Gimli UG is a common and again can be pulled more easily from boosters, where as Gimli DoE is an uncommon.
Series 2
Rohan & Gandalf/Twilight Nazgul
Cut Heavy Chain, Have Patience, 1x Herugrim to make room for 1x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword
Reason: This is now a series 2 deck and requires the minimum hobbit protection package. I propose cutting those cards as they are duplicates or don't really add much to the deck and to weaken the healing potential somewhat (see my arguments on reducing/not providing the Gandalf Package).
Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.
Any additional thoughts on the proposals above? I'd like to start finalizing deck lists as soon as possible.
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Gandalf & Dwarves
Replace Barliman Butterbur PP with Behold the White Rider
Reason: Giving Gandalf access to Sleep Caradhras and Have Patience is very powerful in sealed. Giving a person access to 1 of each AND a choice of what to pull back is a bit too powerful in a sealed environment with the way the decks are designed. This makes Barliman a "What a great common pull!" that can help determine deck choice rather than just another common. Also, Behold has no spotting requirements and is a support area card that helps Gandalf, so I think it fits well in the deck.
As you already know, I'm on-board with swapping out Barliman and leaving him to be a booster pull hopeful. On the other thread, Wielder of the Flame was mentioned. I agree on using that card. It would be fun to see it get used for once :)
The Three Hunters
Replace Gimli, Unbidden Guest with Gimli Dwarf of Erebor
Reason: This deck already has a the awesome Gandalf signet Aragorn HoE and having a second Gandalf signet companion that can pair VERY well with the Trust Me Deck as well as the S3 Shoulder to Shoulder deck is a bit much in my opinion. We changed out the Gimli in the S2S deck to prevent the focus from being on winning skirmishes and this way there is less direct pairing potential that makes it the best pat to go Three Hunters/Rohan/S2S. Additionally Gimli UG is a common and again can be pulled more easily from boosters, where as Gimli DoE is an uncommon.
I agree with this too. From all of the playtesting, I feel like it was noted how strong Gimli is (particularly with those Dwarven Axes, which oft times played an integral part in slowing down some shadow strategies); with the pumps provided, he becomes a juggernaut, taking down minions site after site, clearing the board of a key minion at every move. I guess my point is, While Dwarf of Erebor doesn't have any particular game text that is appealing, Gimli in and of himself, is a strong stand-alone character, without adding the Gandalf signet and ability. And as you mentioned, the Gandalf signet Gimli and Legolas are commons, so everyone has at least some chance of pulling them anyway.
Series 2
Rohan & Gandalf/Twilight Nazgul
Cut Heavy Chain, Have Patience, 1x Herugrim to make room for 1x Severed His Bonds and 2x Hobbit Sword
Reason: This is now a series 2 deck and requires the minimum hobbit protection package. I propose cutting those cards as they are duplicates or don't really add much to the deck and to weaken the healing potential somewhat (see my arguments on reducing/not providing the Gandalf Package).
Looks like a reasonable trade. Frodo support is (almost) always justified.
Series 3
Unbound Rangers/Berserkers
Cut 2x Hobbit Sword and 2x SHB and replace with UB ranger centric cards such as 1x Pathfinder (also helps them get a key site for their shadow) 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x What Are They, 1x We Must Go Warily (or something like that).
Reason: This is now a Series 3 deck so we don't need the hobbit package and giving a bit more ranger flavor would be good.
I like Pathfinder and Eregion's Trails. We Must Go Warily seems interesting too, and would probably fun to see it used (much like Wielder of the Flame, you don't have starters featuring it, that I know of, and it doesn't work competitively outside of sealed ).
I'd vote for a Perilous Ventures, as the Towers block is a little underrepresented in the deck. Alternatively, since it's a regroup action too, you could use Perilous Ventures instead of WMGW, and throw in a War and Valor (although I guess you should already have enough pumps by serie 3...)
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Changes made to the first post decklists. I'll try to get the wiki updated with all three series tomorrow.
Here is what I changed:
Gandwarf -
Traded Barliman for Wielder of the Flame
Three Hunters -
Traded Gimli, UG for Gimli, DoE
Trust/Rohan
Removed: Heavy Chain, 1x Herugrim, 1x Have Patience
Added: 1x Severed His Bonds, 2x Hobbit Sword
Unbound Rangers
Removed 2x Hobbit Sword, 2x SHB
Added: 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x Pathfinder, 1x We Must Go Warily, 1x Perilous Ventures.
Note that We Must Go Warily has an erratum, but still could be an interesting card.
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Changes made to the first post decklists. I'll try to get the wiki updated with all three series tomorrow.
Here is what I changed:
Gandwarf -
Traded Barliman for Wielder of the Flame
Three Hunters -
Traded Gimli, UG for Gimli, DoE
Trust/Rohan
Removed: Heavy Chain, 1x Herugrim, 1x Have Patience
Added: 1x Severed His Bonds, 2x Hobbit Sword
Unbound Rangers
Removed 2x Hobbit Sword, 2x SHB
Added: 1x Eregion's Trails, 1x Pathfinder, 1x We Must Go Warily, 1x Perilous Ventures.
Note that We Must Go Warily has an erratum, but still could be an interesting card.
Yeah, without the erratum, it's pretty darned strong! With the erratum, it might be tough to pull off effectively, but I really like that the deck has a little flavor of a theme to it (the trying for a double move through the use of regroup events), this makes the Boromir that we are using fit decently with it, as he can heal himself next turn :)
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I know I should have spoken earlier.... Sorry for that.
There are some thoughts:
1) Gandwarves: There is a little change that may be implemented: to exchange an Axe Strike with a second Flurry of Blows. To give usefulness to an eventual pull of 2x Axe Strike at Serie 1, as Flurry of Blows appears at Set 2.
2) The Three Hunters: I agree with that combo of Gimli, UG and Legolas, AoM being too powerful, but Unbidden Guest should be an option in a deck. NOT at Serie 1 but at Serie 3 with StS, when Gondor, Rohan and Gandalf reach great heights and Elves (without Pengedhel) will need a little help from their short friend to compete with Men...
There are better options than Dwarf of Erebor (which just doesn't fit here) for a Three Fighters deck: Lively Combatant and 0P62 Dwarven Delegate (no Gandalf signet, or signet at all). I wouldn't fear Gimli's skill to clear the board, as those 3 Shadows at Serie 1 are grinding ones instead of heavy fighters; even Uruk Trackers work their way through grinding: Weary is way more important than pumps or swords.
Dwarven Delegate would be my choice, to prevent early overwhelmings and to give the Hunters a slightly better fighter. Legolas will be much weaker without Unbidden Guest, so Gimli will have to bear more weigth as a figher. And that strength aid is much lesser than that combo to pump Legolas at every site for free (and feed TMAYOD at Serie 2)...
While DoE is an uncommon, Dwarven Delegate and Lively Combatant can't be acquired from boosters...
3) RB Rangers: Dmaz said there is a lack of representation of Towers cards in the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3... that's because there are almost no plain Rangers tricks at Two Towers. But there's plenty for RB Rangers, so Towers representation should be there. New Errand... I'm defending that card for a last time (it's awesome); Arrows Thick in the Air is another good one.
If RB Rangers provide a fortification (City Wall), they steal a strong resource from Knights and turn unbalanced the decision of which Gondor deck to choose, to complement the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3 for a Gondor coupling. And if they use Sam, Proper Poet to counter swarms, Elendil's Valor might be a redundant resource (may be very dangerous: Aragorn, HoE + Proper Poet + Elendil's Valor at 9). Then there would be 2 card slots to reuse with RB Rangers events. I'd add 2x New Errand, or 1x and 1x ATiTA.
4) Shoulder to Shoulder: I agree with the replacement of Thonnas and Pengedhel with weaker Elves, but those 2 selected are laughable. Ordulus is a Lorien Elf +1 strength, and Balglin's skill won't trigger more than the removed Feathered (for the same reason). And you ditched Haldir, EotG, reducing the Elven companion count from 4 to 3...
2x Lorien Swordsman or 2x Lorien Protector can be better than those 2 unique elves, and 1x Haldir should be restored.
Unbidden Guest should be present here. Just look at the possibilities of full Gondor (Three Hunters, Knights/RB Rangers and UB Rangers), full Rohan with TMAYOD, even Gandwarves + TMAYOD... Here this UG + AoM combo shouldn't be OP. Three Hunters + UB Rangers can provide tricks (Agility + Trust combo) and an Elven Sword for a mounted Arwen, while StS can't get Asfaloth if the player doesn't pull it...
By the way, the other 2 decks in Serie 3 have a choke card (and chances of using more choke cards from boosters): NSttS for Rangers and ATfNBS for Hobbits+Smeagol. Shoulder 2 Shoulder doesn't have any choking potential...
5) Saruman + Rohirrim Traitors: If you fear TMAYOD by itself (even worse with Three Hunters), then add One of You Must Do This. At Serie 1 that event is devastating, but at Serie 3 can be a necessity, moreover with this deck being somewhat weak. Don't know what to remove here to add 2x OoYMDT...
6) Valiant Rohan + Gandalf: Since some time ago I started to like the idea of 2 Rohan decks, as most other cultures have 2 (Gondor has 4)... but Sigewulf?!?! Please change that useless ally... He can't be used as requires to spot 5 Valiant men and the deck provides only 4, and 5 Valiant men + Frodo means likely there will be only 4 at Regroup.
Leod is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, and completes the coupling of mounted companion themes (Elves, Gondorians or Gandalf) with Weland, Horse of Rohan/Brego, Well Stored and Eomer, SSoT. PLEASE replace Sigewulf with Leod...
That's all.
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1) Gandwarves: There is a little change that may be implemented: to exchange an Axe Strike with a second Flurry of Blows. To give usefulness to an eventual pull of 2x Axe Strike at Serie 1, as Flurry of Blows appears at Set 2.
While Flurry of Blows is really nice once you get 2 weapons on a dwarf, Axe Strike is a more consistent pump, which is needed in order to win some of the skirmishes. The benefit is it works with Dwarven Axe or Hand Axe. I'd keep it as is.
2) The Three Hunters: I agree with that combo of Gimli, UG and Legolas, AoM being too powerful, but Unbidden Guest should be an option in a deck. NOT at Serie 1 but at Serie 3 with StS, when Gondor, Rohan and Gandalf reach great heights and Elves (without Pengedhel) will need a little help from their short friend to compete with Men...
There are better options than Dwarf of Erebor (which just doesn't fit here) for a Three Fighters deck: Lively Combatant and 0P62 Dwarven Delegate (no Gandalf signet, or signet at all). I wouldn't fear Gimli's skill to clear the board, as those 3 Shadows at Serie 1 are grinding ones instead of heavy fighters; even Uruk Trackers work their way through grinding: Weary is way more important than pumps or swords.
Dwarven Delegate would be my choice, to prevent early overwhelmings and to give the Hunters a slightly better fighter. Legolas will be much weaker without Unbidden Guest, so Gimli will have to bear more weigth as a figher. And that strength aid is much lesser than that combo to pump Legolas at every site for free (and feed TMAYOD at Serie 2)...
While DoE is an uncommon, Dwarven Delegate and Lively Combatant can't be acquired from boosters...
I love the idea of Gimli, Dwarven Delegate rather than Dwarf of Erebor and support his inclusion.
3) RB Rangers: Dmaz said there is a lack of representation of Towers cards in the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3... that's because there are almost no plain Rangers tricks at Two Towers. But there's plenty for RB Rangers, so Towers representation should be there. New Errand... I'm defending that card for a last time (it's awesome); Arrows Thick in the Air is another good one.
If RB Rangers provide a fortification (City Wall), they steal a strong resource from Knights and turn unbalanced the decision of which Gondor deck to choose, to complement the UB Rangers deck at Serie 3 for a Gondor coupling. And if they use Sam, Proper Poet to counter swarms, Elendil's Valor might be a redundant resource (may be very dangerous: Aragorn, HoE + Proper Poet + Elendil's Valor at 9). Then there would be 2 card slots to reuse with RB Rangers events. I'd add 2x New Errand, or 1x and 1x ATiTA.
I think that given the testing that we have done and the balance that the RB Rangers have right now, I don't really want to rock the boat with them. They are the weakest skirmishing fellowship at this point as they require a fair amount of support. This means that they will generally have issues with big minions and getting overwhelmed. Additionally, the general lack of healing (aside from Faramir) means that they are more susceptible to wound creep. I like that they have a weakness, but also a strength in their sacrificial companions.
4) Shoulder to Shoulder: I agree with the replacement of Thonnas and Pengedhel with weaker Elves, but those 2 selected are laughable. Ordulus is a Lorien Elf +1 strength, and Balglin's skill won't trigger more than the removed Feathered (for the same reason). And you ditched Haldir, EotG, reducing the Elven companion count from 4 to 3...
2x Lorien Swordsman or 2x Lorien Protector can be better than those 2 unique elves, and 1x Haldir should be restored.
Unbidden Guest should be present here. Just look at the possibilities of full Gondor (Three Hunters, Knights/RB Rangers and UB Rangers), full Rohan with TMAYOD, even Gandwarves + TMAYOD... Here this UG + AoM combo shouldn't be OP. Three Hunters + UB Rangers can provide tricks (Agility + Trust combo) and an Elven Sword for a mounted Arwen, while StS can't get Asfaloth if the player doesn't pull it...
By the way, the other 2 decks in Serie 3 have a choke card (and chances of using more choke cards from boosters): NSttS for Rangers and ATfNBS for Hobbits+Smeagol. Shoulder 2 Shoulder doesn't have any choking potential...
The focus of this deck is not in their skirmishing power. In testing we discovered that the original elves were too good at skirmishing and healing in the maneuver phase and were thus VERY hard to kill. By including these two particular elves, we don't help their skirmishing ability, but provide some other nice abilities (built in armor if bearing a ranged weapon) and a slightly better Lorien Elf. Given the general lack of indirect wounding (no elven bows, but naith longbows instead) Lorien Swordsman is pretty bad (just like feathered) and Lorien Protector is from outside the block, something we wanted to limit as much as possible.
5) Saruman + Rohirrim Traitors: If you fear TMAYOD by itself (even worse with Three Hunters), then add One of You Must Do This. At Serie 1 that event is devastating, but at Serie 3 can be a necessity, moreover with this deck being somewhat weak. Don't know what to remove here to add 2x OoYMDT...
Have you seen the replays where dmaz combined the Uruks and the evil men? They are VERY powerful when combined. Additional wounding capability is not needed. As with all series 3 decks, they may feel a bit weaker because we are designing them to be able to have support from the previous series cards. I think the deck is fine as it is.
6) Valiant Rohan + Gandalf: Since some time ago I started to like the idea of 2 Rohan decks, as most other cultures have 2 (Gondor has 4)... but Sigewulf?!?! Please change that useless ally... He can't be used as requires to spot 5 Valiant men and the deck provides only 4, and 5 Valiant men + Frodo means likely there will be only 4 at Regroup.
Leod is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, and completes the coupling of mounted companion themes (Elves, Gondorians or Gandalf) with Weland, Horse of Rohan/Brego, Well Stored and Eomer, SSoT. PLEASE replace Sigewulf with Leod...
I support this change.
That's all.
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I like your arguments, and agree with most of them. We agreed on points 2 and 6, and your point 1 is very good (Axe Strike provides better survival). But I've got some little discrepancies:
3) What you say about RB Rangers is true, they are the weakest standalone fellowship at that point and sacrifices can give them better chances. It's just I'd like to see more presence of those great tricks they have, and those events suffer the same treatment as We Must Go Warily and Wielder of the Flame: aren't competitive in constructed and aren't included in a starter (where would shine)...
That, and Aragorn, HoE + Elendil's Valor + Proper Poet worries me a little. Aragorn + Sam was an actual scenario at Site 9 in one of your playtestings... Should it have Elendil's Valor as a 3rd Defender bonus possibility? I'd replace Elendil's Valor with either ATitA or New Errand. Or even might of Numenor, as they have little healing and lots of exertions.
4) Balglin's skill is a good one, I hadn't realized then. But it doesn't work as you think: the minion must be wounded, not the companion must bear a ranged weapon (the same as Lorien Swordsman); you are mistaking him for Naith Warband. Balglin has my vote :up: (Shadow player will choose who gets Legolas' arrow, but if mounted will trigger his skill automatically), but Ordulus should be replaced by any decent elf (that is, with 3 vitality points): Lorien Swordsman, Lorien Guardian, Haldir, EotG, Ferevellon, Thandronen, Arwen, EoHP...
I said Lorien Protector when meant Lorien Guardian #-o... Sorry. And the Elven companion count should be 4 instead of 3, as it will be their debut as the main force in a deck.
-1 Balglin (there is another copy)
-1 Ordulus
+1 Lorien Swordsman or Lorien Guardian
+1 Haldir, EotG or Ferevellon (or even another Swordsman/Guardian)
Lorien Swordsman and Balglin may be very useful in a coupled Mounted Elves deck. And Fereveldir, which is present in the Three Hunters.
5) I haven't seen the replays you mention and can't find them on this thread (Uruk Trackers + [Isengard] Men), but your point is good with that coupling. I wonder if they have such a powerful combination with Hate and Anger archery, the other possible Isengard theme to mix... there one copy or two of OoYMDT can enhance significatively both Uruk Archers and Saruman, SotE.
As I said, those are little discrepancies and nothing more. And there is an additional point:
7) Rohan Allies (Serie 1): That deck has 1x Brego and 3x Rider's Mount. It should have 2 or 3 of those Rider's Mount exchanged for Horse of Rohan, in order to get coupling potential with Gondor decks at Serie 2 (Knights and RB Rangers can't couple with Valiant Rohan, which has 2x Horse of Rohan + Brego)... Mounted RB Rangers (Horse + Ranger's Bow) can be worthy of that little twilight increase. Mounted Knights can be a good option too.
UB Rangers and Elves at Serie 3 can benefit too from that change, if a player doesn't choose Valiant Rohan at Serie 2.
EDIT: Writing was pretty bad at first. Improved some arguments too.