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menace64 |
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:27 am |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Wichita, Kansas
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(Sorry lemon, I can’t resist a good LotR debate... and I missed out on the first go.)
gil-estel wrote: WK was slain by Eowyn and finished by Merry, because of the sword that they found. It was forged in the war against Angmar and there was a spell included. Small part of text just after WK is gone...
That theory would first require you to ignore the sequence of events.
Here’s my take on it, an opinion formed after reading the whole trilogy several times and reading up on as much outside information as I feel possible.
During the 4 Hobbits’ perilous romp through the Barrow Downs, they ultimately acquired daggers enchanted at Gondolin to help fight against the foes of the Free Peoples: the minions of Morgoth and, by extension, Sauron. They were lost during the intervening years, and passed through the destruction of many cities until coming to rest in the holds of Carn Dum. When that place withered away, it became the Barrow-downs.
So these weapons - likely companions of many more littered through the area - were ancient in origin, seized by the Enemy who feared them but could not be rid of them (why Sauron couldn’t have just destroyed them is beyond me, and is probably one of the bigger holes in the storyline). And they found their way into the hands of the Hobbits.
Fast forward to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Merry is wielding such a dagger, a weapon enchanted to rip away the Power that the Dark Lord (either Morgoth or Sauron) spills over his minions. Note that this Power is *not* limited to the Nazgul. Indeed, after Sauron’s ultimate defeat with the Ring’s destruction, his minions swarming over Aragorn’s men at the Black Gate are freed from the Power, choosing then to flee in terror or slay themselves.
So Merry manages the unthinkable and stabs The Witch-king in the leg, stealing from the Black Captain the very same Power that holds each Orc in sway. At that moment The Witch-king is bound only to the trappings of the Ring, the last thread tying him to the earth. Unaware of any of this, Eowyn stabs him in the face (a nice place for any stabbing, I might add). Without the Power, The Witch-king is basically disintegrated into ’nothingness’. But any Tolkienite knows that ’nothingness’ does not mean ’gone forever.’ Both Morgoth and Sauron were slaves to nothingness, and both returned. Regardless of this, as long as the Ring persisted, so did he.
The Witch-king, as quoted many times in this thread, is stripped of his physical being. He can be heard by no one, and he is unable to interact or even really be consciously aware of himself. For all intents and purposes, he is destroyed. But Sauron too was in that very position and came back. As Sauron’s chief lieutenant, it’s only logical to assume the same ability passed down, though at an understandably-lesser extent (remember that Gandalf could defeat The Witch-king easily by RotK, since he is, ultimately, just a Man). Such a returned form would be frail and unusable by the Dark Powers, save as an instrument of fear.
Eowyn cast The Witch-king far beyond the confines of what we would call reality, but not even she could kill one of Sauron’s ultimate creations. In fact, if it was not for the destruction of the Ring, The Witch-king would have remained. When the Ring perished, all the Nazgul vanished along with the other minions of the Dark Lord.
Now, I am morbidly enchanted with the idea of The Witch-King somehow binding himself to another object and thus surviving the destruction of the Ring. However, I find such an act somewhat out of his reach - comparable in part to a person learning how to breathe water. The Witch-King was not only defined by the Ring, but controlled and continued by it. His existence was dependent upon the Rings continuation; without it, he - and the other 8 Nazgul - simply could not be. Not to mention his disembodiment and much-weakened form by that time. |
Riddle 9
When I came to Abraham I let him live just a moment longer. When I came to Moses I saved his life more than once. But the salmon... I regret to say I had a hand in its death.
Who am I? |
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MR. Lurtzy |
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:19 am |
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Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 423
Location: Living with the Governator
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The witch-king wasn’t killed, he just lost his physical form. Even after the ring was destroyed, Sauron and the witch-king were still alive but they were so crippled that they could not ever rise again to cause trouble. The witch-king was bound indirectly to the one ring; he was enslaved to his own ring but Sauron had possession over it. When the one ring was destroyed, all the other great rings lost their power. The witch-king was not killed, he was stripped of his physical being and lost most of his power. He lost so much of his former power that he probably could not ever regain a physical form. |
Last edited by MR. Lurtzy on Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NBarden |
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:50 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 5468
Location: I don't know...
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menace64 wrote: (Sorry lemon, I can’t resist a good LotR debate... and I missed out on the first go.)
gil-estel wrote: WK was slain by Eowyn and finished by Merry, because of the sword that they found. It was forged in the war against Angmar and there was a spell included. Small part of text just after WK is gone...
That theory would first require you to ignore the sequence of events.
Here’s my take on it, an opinion formed after reading the whole trilogy several times and reading up on as much outside information as I feel possible.
During the 4 Hobbits’ perilous romp through the Barrow Downs, they ultimately acquired daggers enchanted at Gondolin to help fight against the foes of the Free Peoples: the minions of Morgoth and, by extension, Sauron. They were lost during the intervening years, and passed through the destruction of many cities until coming to rest in the holds of Carn Dum. When that place withered away, it became the Barrow-downs.
So these weapons - likely companions of many more littered through the area - were ancient in origin, seized by the Enemy who feared them but could not be rid of them (why Sauron couldn’t have just destroyed them is beyond me, and is probably one of the bigger holes in the storyline). And they found their way into the hands of the Hobbits.
Fast forward to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Merry is wielding such a dagger, a weapon enchanted to rip away the Power that the Dark Lord (either Morgoth or Sauron) spills over his minions. Note that this Power is *not* limited to the Nazgul. Indeed, after Sauron’s ultimate defeat with the Ring’s destruction, his minions swarming over Aragorn’s men at the Black Gate are freed from the Power, choosing then to flee in terror or slay themselves.
So Merry manages the unthinkable and stabs The Witch-king in the leg, stealing from the Black Captain the very same Power that holds each Orc in sway. At that moment The Witch-king is bound only to the trappings of the Ring, the last thread tying him to the earth. Unaware of any of this, Eowyn stabs him in the face (a nice place for any stabbing, I might add). Without the Power, The Witch-king is basically disintegrated into ’nothingness’. But any Tolkienite knows that ’nothingness’ does not mean ’gone forever.’ Both Morgoth and Sauron were slaves to nothingness, and both returned. Regardless of this, as long as the Ring persisted, so did he.
The Witch-king, as quoted many times in this thread, is stripped of his physical being. He can be heard by no one, and he is unable to interact or even really be consciously aware of himself. For all intents and purposes, he is destroyed. But Sauron too was in that very position and came back. As Sauron’s chief lieutenant, it’s only logical to assume the same ability passed down, though at an understandably-lesser extent (remember that Gandalf could defeat The Witch-king easily by RotK, since he is, ultimately, just a Man). Such a returned form would be frail and unusable by the Dark Powers, save as an instrument of fear.
Eowyn cast The Witch-king far beyond the confines of what we would call reality, but not even she could kill one of Sauron’s ultimate creations. In fact, if it was not for the destruction of the Ring, The Witch-king would have remained. When the Ring perished, all the Nazgul vanished along with the other minions of the Dark Lord.
Now, I am morbidly enchanted with the idea of The Witch-King somehow binding himself to another object and thus surviving the destruction of the Ring. However, I find such an act somewhat out of his reach - comparable in part to a person learning how to breathe water. The Witch-King was not only defined by the Ring, but controlled and continued by it. His existence was dependent upon the Rings continuation; without it, he - and the other 8 Nazgul - simply could not be. Not to mention his disembodiment and much-weakened form by that time.
You must have WAY to much time on your hands. |
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Celebrimbor |
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:50 pm |
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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As (AP i think) said, I don’t think WK did not die until the one ring was destroyed.
After all, the wraiths were completely invisible and without form to begin with.
Their life was completely bound up with the power of the ring, so...couldn’t die.
Maybe the WK’s case was a special one, where the power of Eowyn’s sword or Pippin’s barrow-wight sword overcame that of the ring, killing the WK.
My case is still undecided, let’s put it at that. |
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MR. Lurtzy |
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:29 am |
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Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 423
Location: Living with the Governator
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The witch king was not bound to the one ring directly, but to his own. Sauron had possession over the wk’s ring so that is what kept the witch king always follow the eye (besides being corrupted). Also the witch king was present in the wraith world at all times and that made him invisible. When the one ring was destroyed, the old witchy was freed of this world and was left in the wraith world forever. |
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menace64 |
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:34 am |
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Wichita, Kansas
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That’s not quite true, Mr. Lurtzy. The Rings gifted to Men were weak, much weaker than even the Three Rings. Those Nine Rings simply didn’t have the Power to extend life such as occurred. The Nine, the Seven, and the Three were all crafted under control of the One. Those other rings were just a ruse to get the Free Peoples under Sauron’s control. |
Riddle 9
When I came to Abraham I let him live just a moment longer. When I came to Moses I saved his life more than once. But the salmon... I regret to say I had a hand in its death.
Who am I? |
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lem0nhead |
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:12 am |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2981
Location: Blood Island
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Wow i really wouldnt argue with m64 over lotr lore, its a losing battle! |
Ban shampoo, demand real poo.
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Anonymous Prodigy |
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:51 am |
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Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 4197
Location: United States
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Celebrimbor wrote: As (AP i think) said, I don’t think WK did not die until the one ring was destroyed.
And of course I am right.
Nice thesis, Menace. |
I had to put something here. |
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Hobbit_Pizza |
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:29 pm |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
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Quote: Ain’t nothing like a hobbit burger and a cold Smirnoff for breakfast. Or Second Breakfast for that matter.
Hobbit Pizza is superior to Hobbit Burgers.
RE: Witch King
Saying the Witch King was slain by Eowyn is like saying Sauron was slain by Isildur. Both life were forces bound to the ring. Their slayings were not finite.
WK getting a chicks sword in the face, Sauron getting his ring-finger cut off, Balrog falling off a Bridge, Jason Vorhees getting hit by a truck, Michael Myers falling a roof, zombie getting shot anywhere but the head, etc.
People do their victory dance and just walk away like it’s over...but it’s not. |
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Elessar's Socks |
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:32 pm |
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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 349
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The Witch-king was effectively, essentially dead like a fart in the wind. |
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