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Felipe Musco

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:38 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

I’m a little worried about the Plains/Mountain proportion, I mean, you have an awful lot of Plains (I know, WoG needs double white), and no way to "turn" them into mountains... Maybe losing some plains and using shocklands a bit more, maybe even considering adding signets... (I also know signets will get blown off, but I still can’t seem to find it a secure mana base...) Other than that, I’m a little worried to what’ll happen against zoo if you don’t have a perfect hand (2 white and a Wrath) by turn 4-5 tops?

I don't like YOU.

Arbitrary

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:53 am

Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 6 Location: TopdeckLand

Ahh--- the traditional monored burn. No matter how complicated mechanics get now, there is still little better than flinging a lightning bolt around.

Is 22 lands a bit much for this deck?
7 plains is way, way too much for this deck, considering that its about 80%+ red.
You’ll have more than a few mana problems here

I can see why you used Wrath, because if you 1 burn for 1 creature against zoo you’re going to run out of gas and be unable to kill them. However, with a 60 card deck, your chance of getting Wrath going first in the first 5 turns is about 7%.

Somehow that is too low to justify this deck’s ability to "outrace Zoo" like you said.

12 of your burn spells can’t even hit creatures. the second you use a Volcanic Hammer to stop a creature swarm is the second that you start losing.

4 copies of Stone Rain is not going to stop Heartbeat. 4 land destruction in a 60 card deck is at best a slap on the wrist.

Ghost Council will never be hit by Wrath. With Orzhov’s bleeding and life gain, Hidetsugu’s Second Rite will be a dead card as well.

The deck rolls over and dies to Ghost Husk; they will laugh at your burn by pumping their husk, and even if you manage to burn the husk down you’ll have wasted 2-3 burn spells that put you on the "out of gas" lane. If somehow you Wrath to save yourself, their Promise of Bunrei’s going to stampede over you.

Your sideboard plans are laughable, general as can be. Even a new player can figure out that "shattering spree is for signets and jittes". It doesn’t give useful info, I expected better.

The First

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:54 pm

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

I have my doubts about the Hidetsugu’s Second Rite. What if you don’t have it in your hand and your opponent has "exactly 10 life". Will you go on and damage him, or will you wait for your finisher? IMO the Rite is only good in a deck with Sunforger for instance.

PS: what happens if you play a Second Rite, and your opponent taps a painland for colored mana (he will be at 9 life instead, 8 if he can’t use the mana), will he still be killed or will the spell lose its target?

EDIT: never mind. Just read the post above.

Drop the fetters plz. Doesn’t belong in this deck, not even in the sideboard.

Akki-Blizzard Herder is better than Stone Rain in this deck because it is cheaper and a 1/1 body for the same effect (you’ll also lose a land but that shouldn’t matter).

Last but not least: where’s Demonfire? Uncounterable, unpreventable burn... put it in!! Anyone remember Urza’s Rage? Well, Demonfire is/should the better, cheaper version of it in this deck

I think that earlier versions of "mono-red burn" had at least some creatures (if you could call Ball Lightning a creature). Very aggressive creatures in a fast and cheap burn deck make sure that a deck like Gruul and the like have to go in defense mode. I’m not saying that this deck won’t stand a chance against Gruul or other aggro decks, but it won’t be able to win consistently I think. Lots will depend on if you get that Wrath or not.

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:15 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

Wow, thats a lot of comments at once.

Okay:

To Ilvaldi: yes, I do remember that deck at regionals. It was a U/W ideal deck that beat you in the 4-0 round, the deck that started your tanking. The thing is- your deck was playing some absurd amount of removal... (4 reciprocate, 4 devouring light, 4 wrath of god etc) and less burn than mine. Mine would be fast enough to actually damage to his head, so a 6th turn ideal won’t really hurt much.

To Musco: The lack of mountains isn’t a problem because if you look at the cards, NONE of them requires a double red, not a single one. I have 13 sources of non-painful red, fifteen overall, which equates to 4-5 cards will have a source of red, which is plenty.

To Arbitrary: Yay for burn! I play 22 land because at PT Honolulu, the least land of a deck that made it was 22, and I think this would qualify as not needing too many. Also, 22>1/3 chance of a land. On turn four, to have a land, I’d need 11 cards (avg.) with 22 land, but 12 with 20. And without card drawing, I’ll have 10-11 cards turn four.

7%? Are you kidding? I have a little bit better than 11/15 chance of drawing the wrath by turn five... that’s more like 73% (rough guesstimate) but not 7 by any means. And yes, a turn four wrath is devastating to the Zoo. I would know- I played Zoo at the last regionals.

I would never use burn to stop creature SWARMS. If they have a watchwolf and throw a jitte on it, I’ll be more than happy to helix in response to attacking, though. WoG is for swarms.

As for stone rain, I don’t need it to STOP heartbeat. All I need is a "slap on the wrist" to buy me enough time to finish them.

I agree that wrath won’t stop council alone. However, it does make council have nothing else to sacrifice in the future. Plus, against orzhov I get to use guerilla tactics, which is just plain cheap.

Against Husk, I have an okay shot if I play correctly. You are correct, they will pump in response to burn. However, when I can burn during my turn, I can trade one for one or even one for two depending on the burn spell AND they lose the firepower they need to attack with a big husk.

I have no problem with what you wrote until the last paragraph. No need to get nasty over a game, dude.

The First: You are correct, rite can be very hard to pull off. That’s one of the reasons I made sure helix is here. The general idea is I can pull them to 13-14, then burn them at the end of the first time they tap out and rite ftw. Plus, the deck has enough power to kill without rite, it’s just more difficult.

It is my understanding that you cannot respond to any sort of mana ability, because mana tapping and folding are the only things faster than instants, and the whole ability should resolve at once unless there is a "then" or "after" etc. in the wording.

Demonfire, demonfire, demonfire... running twenty two lands and no search, I can expect about five land a game. That means I can demonfire them for four if I so choose. I just can’t see that as being better than helix except against heartbeat of spring (this should be in the SB), but against any sort of other deck, a hammer, helix, or char is more useful.

I don’t add creatures because there are no sacrifice creatures in standard worth using at the moment. My wrath hurts me too much for much else. If I can get a 3 for 1 with WoG, that’s great! 3 for 2, not so much.

Felipe Musco

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:56 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

Well, I can see the point about the Maind Deck. Now, for the sideboard, PLEASE do use Demonfire! Also, raise the number os Shattering Sprees to 4, and lose the maindecked Guerrilla Tactics. Maybe you could exchange Guerrilla for somethings like (I’m SO getting pounded for this one) Sudden Impact, Mana Clash, Pyromatics or Aura Barbs (yeah, I know, these are bad), or maybe Glacial Ray, Yamabushi’s Flame, Cackling Flames or Barrel Down Sokenzan ... If you really want Stone rain, then ok, go ahead an use it, but I do believe some white enchantment-destroyers would be nice... Oh, and since Tactics would make a 2-card gap in you main deck, why not maindecking enchantment destroyers, or something like Holy Day, for emergencies? I believe that, if you decide to keep Tactics maindecked, this should be your SB:
4 Demonfire
4 Shattering Spree (so you wouldn’t need Fetters agains Jitte)
4 Holy Day
3 Demystify (So you could blow off things like Ivory Mask, Circles, Moldervine Cloaks, Heartbeat, etc...)

OR

4 Demonfire
4 Shattering Spree
3 Holy Day (Since it only prevents COMBAT damage)
2 Demystify
2 Guerrilla Tactics

Of course, Fetters "kind" of equals Spree+Holy Day (just in essence, anyway, since it means stopping boring artifacts and living a little more), and this SB would mean having 2 cards instead of 1 to do this, but it would make the deck cheaper (so you could burn more and faster) and surprising.
Just some thoughts.

Last edited by Felipe Musco on Wed May 31, 2006 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in totalI don't like YOU.

Felipe Musco

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:06 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

Oh, one last question: do you intend to actually play this deck? Or are you sticking with zoo?

I don't like YOU.

Cobra

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:35 pm

Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: Austin, TX, USA

With 60 cards and 4x Wrath of God, the chance of drawing one (edit: at least one) within the first 12 cards is a hair above 60%.

You also need two sources of White

, which bring the odds down a bit, but the possibility of a mulligan pushes them back up. Can’t be precise there, but I’d say 60% is a good overall estimate of this deck’s ability to play Wrath of God by turn 5.

So no, it’s not THAT reliable, but if we’re assuming that Wrath of God is the difference between winning and losing against aggro decks, it’s an advantaged matchup. Definitely worth including White

IMO.

Last edited by Cobra on Wed May 31, 2006 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in totalhttp://cobracards.com -- Web's best deals on Trading Card Games.

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:53 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

Holy day isn’t main because if I took out more burn, I’d have to rely on second rite.

Tactics COULD move to the sideboard, but I see glacial ray as the same thing only without the possibility of anti-Orzhov, which is a difficult matchup for this deck (orzhova gets around WoG and discard hurts w/o tactics)

As for Conor, I agree, that’s the chance of drawing a single one. I was including the chance of drawing 2, 3, and 4 as well. My only requirement was that I get one, not that it be limited to one.

As for Felipe, I’m currently in the building process of a U/G Powerbeat deck that will likely last me until the next block begins. It’s alone the lines of Kodama of the North Tree/Keiga as fast as possible FTW and counterspells to back it up. I’m still not sure yet, but I really liked the feel of it in simulation, and it beats char etc. My only major problem is tapping out to play a threat against a deck with Wrath... still haven’t found anything for that. Kudzus for added fun with wood elves/meloku.

Cobra

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:34 pm

Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 1202 Location: Austin, TX, USA

La_Sin_Grail wrote:

As for Conor, I agree, that’s the chance of drawing a single one.

No, that’s the chance of drawing any number of them. (More specifically, it’s the chance of NOT drawing zero.) I can do the calculation here if you’d like... Cool

http://cobracards.com -- Web's best deals on Trading Card Games.

Felipe Musco

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:44 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

I suggested Holy Day as a SB card, Grail... And I believe the Kamigawa’s Blasters (can’t quite rememebr which, but I saw 2 that I liked a bit) may be a bit more useful maindecked, but it’s just my opinion.

I don't like YOU.

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