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| Memnarch Mastermind |
![]() Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:41 pm |
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Bochum/Germany
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--- description ---
I was wondering about genjus and Ravnica-Block dual lands, also called "shocklands." My thinking about this came to a very funny conclusion… you are invited to find out what I mean!
--- end description ---
1. Introduction
You know that e.g. a temple garden is a Forest plains or sacred foundry a Mountain plains. Genjus enchant one type of a basic land, so I asked myself what happens if I would enchant a sacred foundry with white and red genjus. It’s a fact that you just can’t use the same genju twice or enchant a basic land with two genjus to get a double creature. You’ll get the same spirit over and over again, no matter how much you pay.
Now the point is: You can switch between both genjus and mke them what you want. A breeding pool can become a 4/4 flyer for 4 mana, for example.
But why the hell genjus? Because of many reasons. They will not be enchanted by any faith’s fetters, pillory of the sleepless or plumes of peace. Since those enchantments are very popular these days even in casual, I thought I find a way around them.
2. Decklist
Creatures = 8
4x Llanowar elves 
4x Birds of Paradise
Enchantments = 14
4x Genju of the Fields 
4x Genju of the Falls 
4x Genju of the cedars
2x Earth surge 3
Artifacts = 6
2x Simic Signet
2x Azorius Signet
2x Selesnija Signet
Instant / Sorcery = 12
4x Farseek 1
4x Life from the loam 1
4x Wrath of God 2
Lands = 24
4x Hallowed fountain
4x Temple Garden
4x Breeding pool
6x Forest
4x Plains
2x island
Sideboard = 15
4x Recollect 2
3x naturalize 1
4x Sunscour 5
4x Scour 2
I want to tell some important notes: the genju spirits are able to make some sort of backup just in case their power and/or toughness is reduced(but not lethally) by effects like dizzy spell, darkblast or last gasp. So if someone plays last gasp on an animated genju of the fields, you may pay 2 to get the power back to 2.
To gain a double genju, you have to activate both with a total cost of 4 colorless mana, but that should be clear…
You cannot spent more than 2 on the same genju to make it a double spirit creature. It will bet he same spirit over and over again. But you can restore the power and toughness or even prevent damage this way due to the new layer rules for animated lands
2 same genjus will not activate a double creature. The land becomes e.g. a 4/4 spirit, paying 2 for the other creature will still result in a 4/4 spirit, I think this is pretty clear even to those who did not know this yet.
It wasn’t really clear, but all abilities will stack, such as flying and lifegain, p/t won’t.
Another expensive trick is to animate one part of the shockland’s genjus, then activate the second to pump it, pay another 2 for the first and then two for the other can gain 8 life out of a attacking temple garden, when I understood all these sticky layer things right.
3. How it works
Hallowed Fountain – Genju of the Fields – Genju of the Falls
Well, this is a 3/2 flyer with lifegain, seriously. Gaining 3 life and dealing 3 damage for 4 mana is pretty good. Especially in this deck, because of all that shocklands you’ll have to restore your life total.
It is better to do this as early as you can, but there are some other options either. Not to mention the 5/4 flyer that you will gain with earth surge.
Breeding Pool – Genju of the cedars – genju of the falls
Coming about with a 4 / 4 flyer, your opponent will feel not very comfortable. He even cannot Wrath it, and in case he or she has some Mortify or putrefy in hand, well, you’ll get the genjus back in hand. Just to tell it: earth surge makes this a 6 / 6 flyer.
Temple garden – genju of the cedars – genju of the fields
Yepp, this combo will result in a 4 / 4 spirit that will also help to get you some life back. With earth surge you’ll have a 6 / 6 lifegainer – again for 4 mana of any color.
Why wrath of God – Sunscour?
Mass destruction is a favorable deck accent, but very annoying when you kill your own buddies with it. The only thig that dies in this deck are the llanowar elves and BoP; seems to me a small price when you can wipe the table clean of any aggressors or blockers. As long as the genjus are not animated, you only have your lands enchanted.
Sunscour is in sideboard because wrath is enough, but when your opponent is coming up with many creatures(you know agro!!!), sunscour should be your first choice because you can pitch it.
+4 Sunscour
+4 Scour
-4 Llanowar elves
-4 Signet
What about enchantment – destruction like mortify or naturalize?
Keep them firing your enchantments, because you have an overwhelming amount of genjus aboard your deck.
In case of a lack of genjus because most of them are destroyed, get them back with Recollect.
+4 Recollect
- 2 Signet
-2 Life from the loam
What if only wrong genjus are in my hand, i.e. I have no land fitting to the type of genjus in my hand?
Therefore I chose farseek, because it gets you the lands you need right away. Usually you will have more than one genju in your opening hand, the decision what to seek depends on this.
What about land destruction?
I thought this might bet he worst case fort his deck, but playtesting showed that land destruction spells are hindering this deck slowly, but not strong enough to Stopp it. Thanks to spells like Life from the loam, Land destruction has a hard time against a massive front of attacking animated lands.
It is clever to spread the genjus at first so that it is harder to select a land.
4 Mana? This is propably too much for one creature!
No, it isn’t. The signets, although I’m not a fan of it, are a very, very good thing in here. For exactly 2 mana you will have the 4 mana to animate your lands. Or at least 3 in case you have only one signet in play.
Additionaly, a signet can give you two genjus for 1 colorless mana when it produces the right colors.
And as I recall: Llanowar elves and birds of paradise are very helpful in the first 3 turns and beyond. With all that mana, you will gain quick access to the complex genju maneuvers.
Blood moon and sowing salt, end of the deck strategy!
Another misunderstanding. A blood moon will make the shocklands to mountains, but still there are basic lands in the deck, and naturalise and scour will also be very helpful to eliminate such a threat.
Sowing salt is a little bit harder. Depending on what’s left, you still might be able to come about. Even against heartbeat it is absolutely a recommendation to use scour.
+3 Naturalize
+4 Scour
-3 signets
-2 earth surge
-2 life from the loam
4. Summary
Playtesting this deck made a lot of fun. No matter if chump block or massive attack, the feeling of this deck is incredible. A lack of counterspells is somehow a point of slight weakness, but when you check the costs of the deck, you’ll see that the highest cost of all is for sunscour, which can be overridden by pitching two white cards.
Especially the massive destruction through wrath of God and Sunscour is very useful in this deck; nothing to beat me means nothing that hurts me.
The choice for green came up because it is a +4 / +4 effect fort he other genjus, and although a genju of the spires would made a +6 / +1, it is not necessary. In case I had a fully animated steam vents, it would be a 6 / 1 flyer, that sounds cool but hides the risk for a lightning helix or even for the (very bad IMO) pyromatics.
The choice for white is a result of shocklands… I am far too nervous to wait a turn, this happens only when I can really nothing do with my hand, and that is not quite often. The best choice therefore was white to gain back the life lost to bring the lands to play untapped.
Blue means flying. Flying is good! That is why blue was the last color to insert in this deck. Flyer come more easily through the enemy lines, so it was pretty good to have genju of the falls in here.
That’s it!
 Thank you for reading this article.
Memnarch Mastermind 2006-07-10 [corrected 2006-07-12] |
| Last edited by Memnarch Mastermind on Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:28 am; edited 2 times in total |
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| BrianBoitano |
![]() Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:34 pm |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Houston, TX
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First I’d like to point out a rules issue with what you want to do:
The Genju’s abilities set power and toughness for each activation, which overrules every old power and toughness the creature may have had. Check the Oracle rulings for Chimeric Sphere, as it is the same effect.
This does not totally nerf your deck, just tweaks it a bit. Here are your new tricks:
For Cedars/Fields, activate the Cedars and attack. When the 4 damage is put on the stack, activate fields, and the damage resolving will trigger the lifegain.
For Cedars/Falls, activate the Falls and attack. After (flying) blockers are declared, activate the Cedars for 4 trample.
For Falls/Fields, activate the Falls to attack. When the 3 damage is put on the stack, activate Fields, and the damage resolving will trigger the lifegain.
You can always switch back to Fields if damage of 2 (Falls) or 3 or 4 (Cedars) is put on the stack on them, to save them.
The Last Gasp trick still works, as all -1/-1 effects wear off (except static effects like Night of Soul’s Betrayal).
Again, these tricks are still fun, but not as explosive as you thought they were.
That said, I still think your deck is fun to play and to play against! I love the idea, I like the synergistic feel of the deck. Everything plays off of everything else very well! You have a lot of acceleration, the Genjus are naturally recurring, and you have lots late-game staying power with the Earth Surges and Wraths.
I think that Llanowar Elves could be something better, since with the Birds and Genjus you will never be wanting for a first turn drop. They could be Sakura-Tribe Elder, since he is a better blocker and he can fetch the basic lands, and he doesn’t mind Wrath or Sunscour. Wood Elves could also fit the spot, as they get 2 of the duals untapped, but they’re more expensive than STE. Verduran Enchantress in this spot creates a lot of card advantage whenever you play a new Genju or one that you just got back from the grave (Edit- Or the Earth Surges!).
I like Life from the Loam in general, but it fits your deck more than most non-Dredge decks.
Nice sideboarding tips
Overall, I give this a 4/5 because it looks fun, playable, sneaky, and it’s very original! |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:19 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| Yeah, I’d have to agree with Brian, big misunderstanding of the rules. I’ll wait ’till you edit your post, so I can vote. |
| I don't like YOU. |
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| Memnarch Mastermind |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:12 am |
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Bochum/Germany
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You both are misunderstanding something here... From where are your information about this? 
I’m sorry, guys, but it works exactly as I said. I questioned it directly at wizards, and from what they returned to me I made this deck off. 
It might propably help when you take a look at the original card text of the old school Duals from Revised...
Quote: Tropical Island
T: Add either or to your mana pool.Counts as both forest and islands and is affected by spells that affect either. If a spell destroys one of these land types, this card is destroyed; if a spell alters one of these land types, the other land type is unaffected.
I have to admit that I had my doubts about this too but think about it: You’ve got 1 Land with 2 types, let’s take a breeding pool for example. It is Island and forest at the same time.
Now that you pay 2 to animate the forest, you animate the land as card but indeed only the enchanted forest. When you pay an additional 2 for the island, both Island and forest are animated, but since the land itself was already a creature, it gains both abilities.
Feel free to ask Wizards, too. I’d be very surprised when they tell you something different. |
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| Memnarch Mastermind |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:06 am |
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Bochum/Germany
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Hey Brian!
Everything’s alright? The idea with the enchantress is very impressive, I’ll try to add her in(once I got some copies of her).
Okay, just in case you haven’t read what I wrote above:
The genju-trick works both your way(but slightly different) and my way. See: You animate two types of cards on one card. That is the difference between Chimeric sphere and duallands. The spirit you created e.g. with genju of the fields comes from one half of the land, while the other half is unaffected. So in case of sacred foundry enchanted with genju of the fields and genju of the spires you can spend 2 mana for the other half land STS and you’d gain a 6/1 spirit from the mountain side.
But it is the same land, so both spirits melt into one with both abilities. Just because you create a spiritlayer over the plains it doesn’t affect the mountain so that you can create an additional layer.
nevertheless attacking with a 2/5 spirit and then linking your opponent with the other half giving +X/+Y is cruel  .
Thank you for your vote. |
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| BrianBoitano |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:47 am |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Houston, TX
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Could you send me exactly what you asked Wizards and what they sent back in response? I believe there was a bit of confusion on somebody’s part, because this same problem has come up before on a Saturday School, and it was treated as I have stated. The current rules don’t allow a card to be two creatures at the same time, and there is no article that would allow such a melding as you have it.
The clause you’re noticing "If a spell alters one of these land types", refers to mana-altering effects, such as those from "Naked Singularity" and "Reality Twist". This clause does not in effect make the card into two cards; it does not protect a Plains Island from a Flashfires, and it also does not mean that if the Plains becomes a creature that the Island can become a seperate creature. The phrase you highlighted, the other land type is unaffected, means exactly what it says: the other type is unaffected. The Genjus, while they can only enchant a land of their home type (not Genju of the Realms, of course), their ability affects the whole card (the words "Enchanted Forest becomes..." refer to the card, not the card type).
Again, the exact correspondence between you and Wizards would help clear this confusion.
Also again, this doesn’t nerf your deck completely. Still deserves the 4 stars  |
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| Memnarch Mastermind |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:01 pm |
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Bochum/Germany
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It wouldn’t really help to paste the e-Mail... it’s german. I try to translate it.
I asked:
Quote: "When I play genju of the falls and genju of the cedars on a breeding pool, can I activate both and gain 2 creatures this way?"
In response I got from wizards@hasbro.de: 
Quote: "No, the land becomes a creature again, but due to the fact it already has this ability it has no relevance. Nevertheless the creature it already is gains both abilities."
Nevertheless you could give me a hint where to find this article. I asked twice and now again especially what we discuss here.
I wouldn’t post such a deck if i didn’t know it works, but in case you are right and it really doesn’t work, which is pretty unlikely ATM to me, I’ll have to make a couple of changes to this deck.  |
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| BrianBoitano |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:54 pm |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Houston, TX
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Well, judging by that response, I’d say this is what he meant: The final creature has all abilities (flying, gain life) of all of the activations, but nowhere does he mention the power/toughness. This is the problem I see with your calculations. I wasn’t sure about the abilities lasting until end of turn, but I’m sure that the power/toughness does not add up.
This article I was talking about was something to do with timestamping of power/toughness setting-abilities, specifically Opalescence and Humility. If you check the Gatherer entry for Opalescence (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Opalescence), you will see this ruling, which is at the heart of this discussion. Bottom line, in both cases you have two timestamped effects that want to set the power/toughness, and the latest one overrules, not stacks with, the others. |
"Not again" -Hans
Hello kind Sir or Madam, I am a polite sig virus. Please put me into your fine and dandy signature so that I might continue to replicate. Thank you for your time. |
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| Memnarch Mastermind |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:44 pm |
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Bochum/Germany
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I gave you the first e-mail not the second one. P/t do stack with each other. Can’t give you the exact wording but I asked it, too in the second one to check this up.
As I recall: You cannot compare this special case with lots of other slightly different.
Why should the creature hold flying while it’s toughness changes?
Please check wizards directly, I just sent e-Mail to them, too. nevertheless you shouldn’t interprete such few sentences I gave you. They can be seen differently, and again: I checked it twice, the second time with P/T.
We’ll see what they finally say, but believe me, that what I’ve told is exactly what they told me, I don’t know what is said in saturday school, but I know what I have asked and what they told me. |
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| BrianBoitano |
![]() Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:31 pm |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Houston, TX
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Well, I’d like to throw myself at the mercy of the Wizards Rules Q & A Forums. I have posted this scenario there, and I’m waiting for a reply. Replies are usually quick, and are 99% accurate, since there is the Wiki effect of many many fact checkers scrutinizing every answer. I’d say if we get 3 people all ruling one way, we’ll have our answer.
http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=154
Our thread is called "Dual Genju?!?"
Edit: Post was up 4 minutes before it got its first response, and that favors the "Power/Toughness reset, abilities don’t" concept. In fact, he brings up a good point; with Genju of the Fields, activating twice = double lifegain goodness!
Edit 2: Another in favor of resetting power/toughness.
Edit 3: ...and just as quickly, the third in favor. |
"Not again" -Hans
Hello kind Sir or Madam, I am a polite sig virus. Please put me into your fine and dandy signature so that I might continue to replicate. Thank you for your time. |
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