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![]() Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:42 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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--- description ---
In an environment dominated by multi-colored decks, mono-Green can still be a powerful choice.
--- end description ---
In Magic, the color green is used in many top decks. G/W Glare, Gifts, Wild Gifts, Critical Mass Update, Rock, and still more all utilize green for its powerful mana acceleration and color fixing ability. However, there is another side to green that has not been seen in the last few years.
Years ago, “Stompy” was one of the top decks. The deck ran efficient green creatures like River Boa and Uktabi Orangutan, running the opponent over before they had a chance to set up. Lately the power of these decks has greatly diminished. The quality of green creatures has been lessened immensely in the last few sets. Even considering this, towards the end of the last standard season a mono green agro deck arose. Powered by creatures like Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, and Sword of Fire and Ice, the deck simply overpowered other decks, even claiming the title of “best deck versus Tooth and Nail”.
But with the loss of most key cards due to the rotation of Mirrodin, the deck has been lacking enough playable cards to really be a force in anyone’s metagame. That is, until now:
Mono Green Agro
Creatures (33):
4 Child of Thorns
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Zodiac Monkey
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
3 Shinen of Life’s Roar
4 Wood Elves
3 Viridian Shaman
4 Stampeding Serow
3 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Other Spells (7):
4 Gather Courage
3 Moldervine Cloak
Lands (20):
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
19 Forest
Sideboard (15):
4 Naturalize
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Iwamori of the Open Fist
3 Life from the Loam
3 Kodama of the North Tree
Ravnica gives us many options for this deck, allowing for a far quicker version than was previously available. With the addition of Vinelasher Kudzu, the deck gains amazingly fast starts:
Turn 1: Forest, Llanowar Elf
Turn 2: Vinelasher Kudzu, Forest, Child of Thorns
Turn 3: Forest, Wood Elves, 2-drop
Of course, this is the fastest possible, but even without the Child and 2-drop, you are still left with an attacking 4/4 Kudzu and 1/1 elf on turn 3, a start that is sure to quickly outrace Boros Deck Wins or any other version of WW/r. There are also many synergies between the cards in the deck. Viridian Shaman and Wood Elves work very well with the Stampeding Serow, and Wood Elves is just incredible with Vinelasher Kudzu. Gather Courage provides options even when tapped out, and usually take opponents completely by surprise. Child of Thorns works to pump up your other guys and save them from burn spells that might otherwise send them to the ‘yard. In fact, Gather Courage and Child of Thorns make this deck incredibly resistant to Pyroclasm, a feared card for this deck in the past.
The Deck is designed to deal with a metagame that consists mostly of WW, Critical Mass Update, and Gifts. The speed and size of the creatures run the three over before they get a chance to either get an army together or cast gifts and build up enough mana to make it relevant.
Some of the card choices are abnormal, here are the reasons behind those choices:
Child of Thorns: This card has never really seen play, but is amazing in this deck, providing an aggressive 1 drop that can save your other creatures from burn.
Zodiac Monkey: Some feel this should be relegated to the sideboard, but so many decks play forests or dual lands that make this unblockable that it is often dangerous in the first game. If nothing else, it is a bear and can beat for two on turn three.
Arashi, the Sky Asunder: This card is incredible. It is uncounterable mass removal against some of the best decks in the format, and even in other match ups it is an efficiently cost creature that beats for a lot and, as a bonus, makes Okina a worthy of play.
Gather Courage: I tested both this and Giant Growth, but I found this to be the superior choice. The surprise of a tapped out Gather Courage is amazing, and is only inferior when your opponent hits with Lightning Helix.
Probably the best part of playing this deck is the plethora of sideboard options available. Because green is the color for removing artifacts and enchantments, you have access to both Naturalize and Viridian Shaman, answers to Jitte and Glorious Anthem. Arashi, the Sky Asunder is incredible against Meloku the Clouded Mirror and against the small fliers of White Weenie. Wildfire would normally give this deck problems because of the low land count and lack of high toughness creatures. However, Iwamori of the Open Fist survives Wildfire, as does Arashi, and so do creatures made larger with Child of Thorns and Gather Courage. Losing the land is still a problem, however, so against Wildfire, Life from the Loam comes in to play catch up. Kodama of the North Tree is a great threat against The Rock and MBC because it can’t be hit with Putrefy or any other targeted removal. Here is the sideboarding analysis for each match up after extensive testing:
Flores Blue:
In: 1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder, 3 Kodama of the North Tree
Out: 1 Stampeding Serow, 3 Viridian Shaman
Flores Blue is a tough match. Every game is close, and a win usually results from a mass of creatures swarming around their large ones, with either Arashi or Shinen to clear the board of Meloku’s illusionary blockers. Shinen is very important in this match, often taking out a Jushi Apprentice before they have a chance to use its ability. Kodama comes in because it can’t be bounced, killed by Quicksand, or taken control of by Keiga. Shamans come out because of a lack of targets.
Bob the Builder:
In: 1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder, 3 Kodama of the North Tree, 1 Viridian Shaman, 4 Naturalize
Out: 4 Stampeding Serow, 4 Zodiac Monkey, 1 Wood Elves
Bob the Builder is an easier match than because their additional card draw (Dark Confidant) dies to Shinen. The addition of Jitte to their deck warrants boarding in the Naturalizes, which also serve to destroy Threads of Disloyalty. Serow is worse than Kodama here because he can be bounced or dealt with via other removal after board (if they kill your other creatures, Serow bounces to hand).
WW/r:
In: 1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder, 3 Iwamori of the Open Fist, 1 Viridian Shaman, 4 Naturalize
Out: 4 Zodiac Monkey, 4 Wood Elves, 1 Gather Courage
Many Builds of WW/r run Worship out of the board, so bringing in Naturalizes against their Jittes, Anthems, and Worships is reasonable. Wood Elves are still good, but not as strong as Iwamori or Viridian Shamans in this match. Zodiac Monkey trades with their one drops, which is unacceptable in this match for your two drops, so he comes out too. It is painful to side out the Gather Courage, but room for the board cards needs to be made, and this is the least consequential card to cut. Iwamori tramples over everything they have, and doesn’t die to a lone char. Combined with Moldervine Cloak, he is almost unstoppable.
B/G Rock:
In: 3 Kodama of the North Tree
Out: 3 Stampeding Serow
The risk of Hideous Laughter makes Serow a problem for you. It is easily replaced with the un-putrefyable Kodama. Arashi can come in as well, if they play Hypnotic Specter and Birds of Paradise. This match up is difficult because of their removal and large late game creatures. However, if you swing early enough to get them to low life, a late game Shinen or Kodama can finish it.
Enduring Ideal:
In: 1 Viridian Shaman, 4 Naturalize
Out: 3 Arashi, the Sky Asunder, 2 Shinen of Life’s Roar
The cards that come out are inconsequential in this match because of their lack of creatures. Shaman with Serow can destroy their mana base and make it difficult for them to go off. Naturalize helps in the same way, as well as providing answers to the enchantments they get out with Enduring Ideal. Overall, the only problems with this match are Wrath of God and Form of the Dragon. Be sure to only play necessary creatures to avoid deadly Wraths, but still kill them before they get a chance to cast Form of the Dragon. Don’t be afraid to use Gather Courage for an early damage boost, since you won’t need it for creature combat.
Gifts:
In: 1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder, 3 Kodama of the North Tree
Out: 3 Viridian Shaman, 1 Wood Elves
Removing their Kokushos with Arashi is critical because you can’t allow them to have blockers. Zodiac Monkey is amazing in this match up, especially with Moldervine Cloak. Kodama is just a huge beatstick that can’t be putrefied. Shamans have no targets, and come out. Generally a good match up, because of speed and resilience even in the face of Kagemaro, First to Suffer.
Wild Gifts:
In: 3 Iwamori of the Open Fist, 3 Life from the Loam, 1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Out: 3 Viridian Shaman, 3 Shinen of Life’s Roar, 1 Stampeding Serow
Your large creatures from the board are just better against this deck than Serow. Iwamori rarely allows them to drop a creature, and if it does, it is most likely Meloku or Ink-Eyes, which are not dangerous to your plan anyways. Life from the Loam allows for a quick recovery, and Arashi and Iwamori makes their Wildfires go in your favor.
G/W Glare:
In: 4 Naturalize, 3 Iwamori of the Open Fist
Out: 3 Arashi, the Sky Asunder, 3 cards of your choice
This is a very tough match up that is almost unwinnable without Naturalize. Glare is very powerful versus you. However, Naturalize is very helpful, and Iwamori is huge here. Kodama can also be sided in, but that depends on the opposing build. If they have Kodamas in their deck, bringing in yours is probably not a great idea because thy have a removal spell for it. If not, bring them in. Boarding cards otu for this match is difficult. If you bring in Kodama, take out Serow, otherwise, find 3 cards of your choice, depending on their build of Glare.
Critical Mass Update:
In: 1 Viridian Shaman, 3 Kodama of the North Tree
Out: 4 Stampeding Serow
This is a good matchup because they take time to develop while you attack. Make sure you draw their counters out with monkeys and shinens before playing shaman on their jittes.
These are the main match ups you might face in today’s standard. If you want any other sideboarding analysis, please tell me and I will be happy to test and report. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:26 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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I must admit, I didn't finish the article. I couldn't think anything beyond the.... issues I have with the deck.
1) You are playing a T2 agro deck, without the best card- umezaea's jitte
2)Pyroclasm kills you worse than Boros weenie- they can have anthem or jitte, or other good white buff spells. Only 7 of your creatures can survive it, and probably none would be out at the time when they clasm.
3) When a set about colors combining comes out, you make a mono deck.
4) Okay, after readin down a bit of the article, why in the world would you attack with a llanowar elf on turn 3?
5) Child of thorns doesn't get play because he can save a creature from butn at the cost of him. He's a possible save only to burn, and otherwise 1 for a 1/1. Llanowars are better, as are bops.
6) a bear= 2 for a 2/2 named after dominia's grizzlies. Something that can't even kill a boros recruit doesn't deserve the title. Just call him zodiac monkey.
Just to prove this isn't anything personal, I do love you playing arashi. He is better than people give him credit for. Gather courage is a solid choice, as well, same with moldervine cloak. This could be so good if you just splashed white for anthem, and added jitte. Those two simple things could make this from meh to competitive. Very competitive. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:00 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
Location:
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1- I will not play jitte in a deck that doesn't need it. Jitte is a great card, and would probably make this deck better, except that most other decks have artifact removal for it, often slowing you down a turn instead of providing the speed boost it normally would. I did test a version with jitte, but it made the synergies not work as well and created worse results.
2-I explained this decks interaction with pyroclasm.
3-Just because a set with multi colors comes out does not require me to write an article about a 2 or 3 colored deck, in fact, the top decks in standard are non-guild affiliated, except for R/W weenie.
4-You might attack with Llanowar Elf on turn three because it is a better play when you do not need to tap it for mana.
5-Child will save creatures from burn. He is also an aggressive 1 drop, which is difficult to find in standard right now for green. Birds do nothing for this deck, Elves are much better, and only 4 one drop accelerators are needed.
6-A bear refers to a 2 power creature for 2 mana. It does not refer to what it can and cannot kill. Boros recruit is a non-factor, as are other 1 power first strikers. I use the term bear to describe that he can attack for two and cost two, not to compare him to grizzly bears in any other way.
You can't splash white for anthem. Anthem has double W in its mana cost. And what makes you think the deck is meh? The only evidence you have is my testing, and that show very non-"meh" results. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:50 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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Well if you didn't like jitted version, its your call. It will make it a better deck, though, even if less origional
You claim you will counter pyroclasm with gather courage and child of thorns?? Lets say you cast courage, sac thorns, and lose a creature. Thats them killing three cards of yours for one. Not exactly dealing with it...
I didn't say guild affiliated. I said multi color. Because at some point, all the color comboes will come out, at which point you can use the shocklands to splash without worrying about mana colors.
I would hope they have a 2/2 or more blocker by turn three. At which point you just lost a llanowar elf for nothing, unless you waste a gather courage, which would be better off dealing them an extra two damage.
Elves of Deep Shadow then, maybe? Birds would only be for if you used jitte- you can pump the birds since they have evasion to get through.
Actually, you may not know the context, but why do you think it's called bear? Grizzly bear... and I don't think anybody's afraid of something that dies to every creature with a power.
Deck is meh because I don't think it can beat a proper white weenie deck. And that is the standard for which all aggro decks must stand. WW has jitte and anthem, and you can't beat that with pure green. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:23 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
Location:
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I will not "counter" pyroclasm. However, it is not as great a trade as them not casting pyroclasm. Obviously Pyroclasm is a problem, as is wrath of god. those cards are designed to deal with creature strategies. However, with the inclusion of child and gather courage, the trade is not as dangerous.
Why do I have to make a multi color deck? If the mono green version is better, or at least good enough to not worry about the mana issues inherent in any mutli color deck, why splash? I can do everythign I need to with one color, adding another just dilutes the deck.
Why would they havea 2/2? If they are playing agro, sure they will. If they are playing agro/control, they probably will. If they are playing control or combo however, it is unlikely they do. You also might swing into a 2 toughtness creature with gather courage or child of thorns.
there is no need for an additional 1 drop accelerator.
I do know the context of the term "bear". 2-drops with 2 power are called "bears".
I have tested the WW match up and MGA has better than 50 % win ration. If you believe this is wrong, do your own testing, and you will see the results. After board the match up is especially good because of naturalize and Shaman.
you have raised no points that are relevant or that I have not explained. please post comments to provide constructive criticism or provide actual data instead of trying to make my article seem worse compared to your article. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:51 am |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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Have I once compared your article to mine? No. Do people read the comments before posting? No. I'm trying to help you with your deck and I'm sorry if that upsets you. I'll stop if you don't want to get better, just tell me that.
Adding jittes is a relevant point. I'm not sure why they're not in except "you didn't like the version" You never said it was bad or even worse.
As for pyroclasm, I know you have cards to help deal with it, but if you could give an example and explain how your deck recovers as a whole, since I'm not sure it can hang with losing 2-3 cards so early? Yes, I agree you've said those cards help deal with clasm, but you never showed that they actually can. In theory, they can, but in practice, perhaps the card advantage is too much?
I never said you have to build a multi-color deck. I simply said that you could improve it by adding other aspects at little cost to yourself. White for anthem or red for headshots could both help this deck a fair bit. It would also make your opponents even more afraid to block (you burn stuff to kill it + when they block), which would help you deal damage to them.
You may want to worry about threads of disloyalty as well. Remember that no enchantment hate is maindecked, so that hurts with anthem as well. Perhaps use at least two naturalizes main and the other two sided?
Ok this one isn't helping the deck, I'm just trying to teach you something. What card with the name bear in it has one power?
I'm sure your deck can work against WW after sideboarding. But they will beat you if you have no naturalizes and only three viridian shaman. So if you get one bad hand in games two or three (and you said playtesting is over 50% implies about 55?) than you still lose to them. Either do four shamans, put two nats. maindeck or something to help out game one.
Vote and then read this. Make your own judgements and then vote and then read these. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:52 am |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
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You can recover from pyroclasm. Which I said in the article, bu toyu didn't take the time to read before finding that "fault".
There is no reason to add another color when it doesn't help, especially splashing for a mediocre card with double W in the mana cost.
I specifically address the issue of threads in my explanation of the sideboarding and match up for Flores Blue and Bob the Builder.
No card with the name Bear has 1 power. I've never claimed that. Bear refers to a 2 drop with 2 power.
The match up versus WW is at least 60% in your favor, not just the secondand third games. Obviously you still lose to them some of the time, you will never build a deck with a 100% win probablity against any deck. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:34 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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Bear thing was a typo, I meant toughness. And I know you knew what I meant, so try finding one.
I did finish reading the article by the time I got that far. And I found no matter how I put it that 2-3 card loss turn two hurts badly. "recover" is just that exactly- it maims you, so you need to do a lot to get back to full power. At which point they have as well.
I would be curious to see whwat build of weenie you are facing... I used to play WW and I'm pretty sure anthem would hurt your deck. And I still see absolutely nothing about you being able to handle wrath of god...
And as for threads, they will beat you game one. You have no enchant hate and if you get a 4/4 turn three, they will take it. And what about them countering your enchant hate? Or you needing to choose between killing that and a jitte?
Don't bother posting a rebuttle, I'm sick of arguing with you. If you want me to help your decklist, ask, and if not, don't blame me when you beat a bunch of decks but lose to the things I've pointed out. |
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| inresponse |
![]() Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:54 pm |
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 162
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there is no bear with 1 toughness that I am aware of. I am referencing grizzly bears for its two mana cost for 2power. The toughness of the creature is irrelevant. It is worse than a grizzly bears back end, but the term "bear" refers to power only
if they play pyroclasm turn two, it sucks. Of course it does. I never denied that. All I said is that with cards like gather courage and child of thorns, you have a better chance of recovering quickly. These cards make pyroclasm have a minimal effect. They do not completely negate it.
Wrath of God is not a typical card in White Weenie. Anthem is not good either, but since the creatures in this deck are generally larger anyways, it is not a huge deal.
Becasue an opponent plays threads in game one does not mean they will win. Playing threads is good against MGA, however it can be played around by playing Monkeys before Kudzus. Also, for threads to be a most effective, it needs to be played early. This means that the opponent has to either tap out, or leave themselves little mana to play counterspells. I don't need to choose between killing threads and jitte because I play 8 removal spells for jitte. Shamans can take care of it, usually.
You asked questions so of course I am going to post a rebuttal. I asked for everyone's help with my decklist, but instead you post things about non existant problems or about how specific cards hurt this deck. Obviously cards my opponent plays hurt this deck, otherwise they would not play them. This goes for Pyroclasm and Wrath of God.
The decks that run these two mass removal spells are not really a presence in the Standard environment. Enduring Ideal is the only deck that runs wrath (besides 1 copy in the sideboards of some glare decks), and Wild Gifts is the only deck that runs Pyroclasm. There is no need to be concerned about these two cards because they are just not represented in great enough numbers.
I do not lose to the things you've pointed out. Wrath is not an autoloss, Pyroclasm is not an autoloss, and Threads is definitely not an autoloss. I am not blaming you for saying that they are, I am just proving that they are incorrect. |
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| La_Sin_Grail |
![]() Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:04 pm |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 806
Location: Maryland
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I couldn't help but notice you threw kodama of the north tree in on over half of your sideboard matchups, and every time you have a good reason for it. Why not promot him to maindeck? He could help a lot game one.
I'm still unlear as to how them wrathing on turn four doesn't stop you, but I won't get into that.
Don't forget R/W Control on your matchup list. This is surprisingly common and runs wrath and pyroclasm... I'm not sure if there's anything you can do on that one. It's designed to beat all weenie decks and does just that(>_<). You may want to think of a way to stop it, if weenie has a way. |
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