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| corvus |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:25 am |
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 1696
Location: Roaming, but dangerous!!!
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| 4 is wrong. I... I think. |
Click here if you want to trade some foils away 
Far, Far beyond the island we dwelt in shapes of twilight
Through draught and weary days
Through grief and endless pain |
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| JayPL |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:53 am |
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Far, far away
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then 2 and 3 must be false as well  |
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| theoden,horsemaster |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:45 am |
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Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 21
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I think it is not the same, because one is a result, the other is a choice
discarded when killed, is a result of something.
Discarding a minion, is a choice that has been made. |
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| TheJord |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:37 pm |
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Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 486
Location: UK
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This is straight from the rule book.
"When you discard a companion to use its game text or as a
result of some other effect, place that card in your discard
pile"
It uses the words ’place that card in the discard pile’ in this instance. It doesnt have any other mysterious meaning.
I will continue to sift the rulebook to prove that this Evil Men possession swarm works. |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:52 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 2434
Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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As far as I’m concerned, when a minion is killed, he is killed, not discarded. Cards like What Are They and Ithilien Blade discard minions. When the Free Peoples player stops moving, you discard minions. WHen you activate an ability requiring you to discard a minion, you discard that minion. When the minion loses a skirmish and you place the last wound on it, it’s killed, but since to maintain fairness there’s no dead pile for minions, it’s put in the discard pile. That’s not the same thing. In both cases, the end result is that you put them in the discard pile, but the REASON why you do so IS different. Also, CG asked why cards say "discard from play", and the reason is simple: to avoid confusion as much as possible, since "discard a card" has always been sued for discarding a card from your hand. Some "smart" players could try to activate an ability by discarding a minion from hand (thus not spending twilight for it, and such) in the approppriate phase, thus having "discard from play" written on cards is necessary. Now, I’ve been away from the game for quite some time, and as far as I know, Decipher has been messing up A LOT lately, so I can’t guarantee that there’s no card with just "discard" written on it when it should be "from play", but I can asure you that it shouldn’t say so.
On page 30 of the Black Riders rulebook, where they explain overwhelming, it’s pretty clear that minions ARE killed, just as companions, although they go to the discard pile so you can play them again.
Also, on page 7, where they explain "Killed", they AGAIN make sure to say that characters (meaning allies, minions and companions) are "killed", and then, for rules’ sake, they state that you place dead companions in the dead pile, and dead minions in the discard pile. Again, minions are killed, NOT discarded, when they lose a skirmish and are either wounded to death or overwhelmed.
On page 33, in "Free Peoples player chooses", they state minions are discarded under those circunstances, which is different. |
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| TheJord |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:57 pm |
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Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 486
Location: UK
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Companions: Killed, then to the dead pile
Minions: Killed, then to the discard pile (otherwise known as being discarded)
Felipe Musco is copying long posts! Aargh! This discussion is out of hand. They’re even questioning Bib for goodness sake!!! |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:12 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
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Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| Well, I acknowledge bib’s vast knowledge of the rules, and I USUALLY wait for his "rulings" to check any doubts. However, so far, no convincing rulings have been given, so I went after it to check how it works. All I’m stating here is what is written in the latest Rulebook available, and it’s as bib says: "cards do exactly what they say". Same goes for rules. If a rule says the minion is DISCARDED, it is discarded. If it says he is KILLED, then it’s killed, and NOT discarded. Also, as I said before, bib’s still the number 1 Oracle in rules here, for me, but bib is not the Rules Manager-in-Chief (or something like that) in Decipher, so as far as I know he could be wrong once in a while, know couldn’t he? When someone can find me a better source for rulings on the topic, I’ll gladly take it, I’m really curious on how this is going to turn out being. However, so far, the best rulings I’ve found exemplify exactly what I’ve written above, so in this case, for the moment, YES, I WILL QUESTION BIB’S RULING! Even if just to motivate finding a final rules source. Can you say anything I’ve written above is incorrect? Because all I did was copy from the Rulebook in Decipher’s website... |
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| bibfortuna25 |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:32 pm |
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 615
Location: Springfield, OR
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The rules say killed minions go to the discard pile. This proves that they are discarded.
Quote: 1. When a minion is killed, it is placed on the discard pile.
2. When a minion is discarded from play, it is placed on the discard pile.
You just proved my point. Since both result in the minion being placed on the discard pile, that means the minion was discarded.
There is nothing in the rules that says killed minions are not discarded. You can’t just make up new rules whenever you feel like it. You have to do exactly what the cards and rules say. |
| All cards do what they say. |
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| Felipe Musco |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:42 pm |
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Joined: 18 May 2006
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Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil
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| That’s right. And if the rules say that killing a minion is different from discarding a minion (they treat it as being different in the Rulebook), then killed minions are not discarded, they’re placed in the discard pile, which is different... SOrry, bib, but did you happen to find an entry onrules on this one, or you’re just making an assumption? Otherwise I can drop the topic. |
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| bibfortuna25 |
![]() Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:48 pm |
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 615
Location: Springfield, OR
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If a card is placed in the discard pile, it is discarded, as JayPL already proved.
If X = 4 and Y = 4, then X = Y. |
| All cards do what they say. |
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