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| hawkeyespf |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:49 am |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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Hobbiton Lad wrote: I would assume then that this would make both SDA and Lackey illegal as well.
LOL - OMG that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all year.
Honestly, you think that’s not common knowledge? I’m absolutely shocked you didn’t already know this. OF COURSE they’re illegal. I mean, not only are they using Decipher’s images without consent, but SDA even leaches the images directly from Decipher’s site!
Fortunately for SDA, Lackey, and the players who use them, Decipher is a little busy right now trying to stay solvent and turn things around. I’m sure if they had time to get an injunction filed they would. |
When we do it in Iraq, it's called progress. When we do it here in the US, it's called socialism.
http://trade.mahasamatman.com/Rings/list_show.pl?user=florents |
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| Hobbiton Lad |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:52 am |
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Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 26
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| The question was rhetorical in nature. My point is that people aren’t getting all up in arms about SDA and Lackey, so why choose this particular endeavor to quote U.S. Copyright Law and such. If you’re gonna get on that soapbox with this experiment, I guess I would just expect you to respond with the same vigor toward SDA and Lackey as well. |
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| hawkeyespf |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:59 am |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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Hobbiton Lad wrote: Also, I think people need to realize one glaring fact...
Decipher doesn’t give a crap about this game anymore.
People have spent the better part of two years trying to get Decipher’s "blessing" to form a Player’s Committee, and it’s gotten nowhere. Warren isn’t interested in the vitality of the LotR community. All he sees is that he can’t make money off this game anymore. That’s all he cares about.
This is just plain ignorant. Why then did Decipher help to create the Star Wars Players Committee after they lost that license? Could they have made any more money off that game? No, the license was in the hands of WotC. Ok, so why didn’t George Lucas shut down the SWCCGPC? He gave it his blessing (though he restricted what they could and could not do for several years, only recently letting up on the reigns) even though he is a major stockholder in Hasbro, parent company of WotC, maker of that crap dice game, Star Wars TCG.
You want to know why there is currently no LotR PC? Because Seth did a crap job of presenting his ideas to Kendrick Summers. Seth’s ideas were not what Kendrick was looking for. Decipher (and its employees) do indeed give a crap about the game, and they want to see it continue - do you really think Warren wants to be able to bring up LotR in a business conservation only to have to eventually concede that it is now a completely dead game with a player base that turned its back on not only the game but the company as well? OF COURSE NOT.
I’m slowly but surely working on my own presentation to bring to Kendrick, and it does take a lot of time to get things sorted out and put together right. There are a lot of angles you have to think about for each facet of what the PC will be and do. How will it affect not only the game, but Decipher’s reputation and future competitiveness? What does New Line think about it, will it help or hurt possible sales for The Hobbit when that is released? And those are just off the top of my head - these things MUST be factored in if a proposal is to be taken seriously. |
When we do it in Iraq, it's called progress. When we do it here in the US, it's called socialism.
http://trade.mahasamatman.com/Rings/list_show.pl?user=florents |
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| Hobbiton Lad |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:19 am |
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Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 26
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Ah, now I understand. You want people to back off so that nothing will affect your proposal. I see where your vested interest lies now.
I just hope that by the time Decipher and New Line give their respective "blessings" it won’t be too late. :/ |
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| hawkeyespf |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:30 am |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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Believe me, I’m as big a fan of Homer Simpson’s style of management as anybody (Can’t someone else do it?) - and so I was disappointed (if not surprised) when Seth’s proposal failed to excite those it needed to.
Seeing where the game is now, I’m trying to do everything I can to bring it back. If anyone would like to be of assistance, I’d be most grateful.
Maybe one of the most important issues at hand is a familiar one - change. If there were a community calling for organizational leadership of the game, it certainly couldn’t hurt the proposal, right? Let’s try and get vocal about the game with former players and tournament directors. Encourage casual play and local tournaments so that Decipher and New Line will see that there is more than just a vocal minority who want the game to survive. YES WE CAN.
Put the word out to former players, people you used to playtest against before tournaments, even people you used to borrow cards from! This game is fighting for a Second Age and it WILL be better than before.
Let’s put the cards back in the hands of the players and let them decide what is best for the game, and let’s do it the right way.  |
When we do it in Iraq, it's called progress. When we do it here in the US, it's called socialism.
http://trade.mahasamatman.com/Rings/list_show.pl?user=florents |
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| Hobbiton Lad |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:43 am |
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Joined: 26 Jun 2007
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I can only speak for my local community, but I can tell you that nothing short of a highly publicized and supported relaunch of the game is going to peak people’s interest again around here. Nobody wants to try to absorb 18 sets worth of a game right off the bat. It’s too many cards/rulings to learn and, quite honestly, too much to expect people to purchase.
That was the real though behind launching Fellowship of the Ring 2nd Edition and wiping the slate clean. It gives an easy re-entry point for players who have been away from the game for a long time, and it also provides a launch point at which one could conceivably bring brand new players into the fold. Many stores still have the old product (or can get it very cheaply) and I’m sure would be thrilled at the prospect of offloading old boxes of FotR, Mines, Realms, etc.
Take one look at the comprehensive rulebook and the CRD and tell me that a new player would be able to absorb either of them with ease. It’s just not practical to try to build the game back up on a shaky foundation. It needs to be wrecked and rebuilt. So, at least consider that with your proposal, as it were.
The longer this game goes without a PC injecting new life into it, the less chance it has of surviving at all. How much longer are we going to have to wait? I’m all for doing things right, but you can only wait so long before you reach a point of critical mass -- the point where you either act, or watch the game breathe its last. |
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| hawkeyespf |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:51 am |
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Round Lake IL
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I’m not saying I don’t like the relaunch idea - I do actually, I think that it’s a very strong, well thought out idea that will appeal to old and new players alike, not to mention retailers as you mentioned.
I’m hoping to get this put together in the next month or so, but that may be ambitious as I re-enrolled in school a few weeks ago and am tutoring my classmates for a few bucks until I find a permanent job. |
When we do it in Iraq, it's called progress. When we do it here in the US, it's called socialism.
http://trade.mahasamatman.com/Rings/list_show.pl?user=florents |
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| Kralik |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:22 pm |
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 223
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A lot of interesting thoughts here; I’m glad this subject was brought up.
hawkeyespf wrote: Honestly, you think that’s not common knowledge? I’m absolutely shocked you didn’t already know this. OF COURSE they’re illegal. I mean, not only are they using Decipher’s images without consent, but SDA even leaches the images directly from Decipher’s site!
I would think that by Decipher’s own Terms of Use there is no problem in the use of SdA. Read the following, especially the last paragraph:
Decipher wrote: USE OF SITE MATERIALS
Decipher supports and encourages the open discussion and publication of information about our games and products. Users are welcome to reprint accurately FAQs, Card Lists, Sample Games and Rules (without illustrations). Users may also copy, only for posting on your personal web site, up to and including six (6) complete and unmodified images from either or both the StarTrek customizable card game and The Lord of the Rings collectable trading card game ("Properties"). At no time may more than six (6) complete and unmodified images from either or both Properties appear on your personal web site at any one time without receiving additional and written permission from Decipher.
Copies must be of the entire card; no extraction, remanipulation, cutting or pasting of partial card images are permitted, nor are Users permitted to create and/or post "Dream Cards". Whenever you republish any images as permitted by this section, you must give Decipher credit in accordance with the Legal Credit Guidelines.
Any content downloaded from the Sites may be used for your personal, noncommercial use only, Users agree not to reproduce, retransmit, distribute, disseminate, sell, publish, broadcast or circulate content received from these Sites regardless of whether User is giving, selling, lending, leasing or otherwise bartering the content.
If Decipher is posting card images on their site, they are obviously making them available for public download. I’m no expert, but it seems like by the above paragraph that as long as that content downloaded is for "personal use" then it’s fine. All SdA does is display those images that you’ve downloaded legally from Decipher.
However, what I wonder about is my card database. Does it actually comply with Decipher’s Terms of Use? Technically, I’d have to say no. On the other hand, there are dozens of sites throughout the internet that have copies of Decipher’s card images. Did they all get the appropriate permission to use more than six? I have no way of knowing, but I highly doubt it. I’m not so sure that Decipher really cares. Also, does it make a difference that they no longer have their LotR license?
I first set up that site when Decipher’s website was down, since I never knew if it would come back up again. I wanted it to be a useful resource for players. Also, given that its older CCG’s no longer have extensive databases, I’d hope for it to stay around past the day in which D completely gives up on LotR. 
US Copyright Office, Section 107 wrote: 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.
Do you suppose it could count as research? 
Regardless, if Decipher ever asks me to take down the site, I will do so immediately with no arguments.  I’m just hoping it wouldn’t be an issue.
Any thoughts?  |
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| Elessar's Socks |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:05 pm |
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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 349
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| So I gather Seth’s talks collapsed? I remember him asking people to wait on the Decipher forums, and then silence--IMO, even a "still working on it" would’ve gone a long way. Props for trying, though. |
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| TheHobbit13 |
![]() Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:40 pm |
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 1303
Location: minnesota
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uuuu i wuv a good fight 
i don’t think people should tern there back on dechipher give credit were credit need to be given. |
| If you like LOTR then maybe you would like redemption ccg PM me for more info |
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