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Felipe Musco

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:52 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

Shirei is in the deck (and not leaving) for three reasons:
1 - There’s only a 2-card gap in the deck, and there’re few cards wich I would be able to add only 2, and make them work. Legendary creatures are a good example, since they’re unique.
2 - Brainspoil can be transmuted into him, and there’s no use in adding Diabolic Tutor (since what I’m trying to get can be easily fetched with Infernal Tutor), and ABSOLUTELY no use in adding more Traumatize, since it costs A LOT to play, and if it is indeed a useful card, it is so during the beggining of the game, being more of a waste of mana than a good milling card near the end (let’s say, after 2 or 3 Glimpses).
3 - If I can get the lock to work with the Kamis, good, it’ll save me a lot of pain. If not, Shirei is a GREAT bait, drawing, as you said, Mortify and Putrefy onto HIM (not my Signets, or worse, my Kamis in response of passing, wich would making it impossible to sacrifice them for defense). The same goes for Char, Volcanic Hammer, Seal of Fire, Shock, well you name it. It IS a great bait, and since I WILL be milling his deck from turn 4, at the worst (but if this happens, it’s probably gonna be a 20-card mill, at least), he WON’T have so many of those cards, now will he?
That being said, as expensive as it may be, Shirei is staying Main Decked for sure. (At least until I find something more useful, like an Enchantment which only affects MY creatures).

I don't like YOU.

Felipe Musco

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:29 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

Quote:

The First said: Order of the Stars is inferior to Descendant of Kiyomaro IMO. The Order has protection but doesn’t kill. It doesn’t protect you from a Giant Solifuge for instance.

From this point of view, this may be true. But Descendant costs A LOT more than Order, and this deck must have CHEAP and QUICK ways of defending itself at the beggining, at least until I start Glimpsing (maybe twincasting it). And once that starts, it’s as I said in the above post, they won’t quite have a lot of Solifuges or something like him to be playing, now will they? Also, Kami is still there, wich would make me able to just prevent the damage from the Solifuge (if I really have to, since the 3 points of damage it can give me don’t seem at all THAT terrifying), coming back if Shirei’s in play (and that could easily happen if I start milling from round two, since I’ll get a lot of lands out of his deck, probably).

I don't like YOU.

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:53 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

I think Descendant would be a better choice except for the necessary double white. Two white may be a lot to ask of the mana base consistancy wise, but if you find you can play him, he’s better than order. I didn’t see a single order of the stars at regionals, but I saw plenty of descendants in U/W control decks.

The First

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:00 pm

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

If you are playing control against aggro, you WILL lose some life early game. Not a hundred Orders will change that (well, maybe 100 will). It is all about neutralizing the total damage and even reversing it if possible. You need to control and remove those creatures, not just block 1 of them every turn.

What good will a 0/1 "undestructible" do against Gruul? Give the creature trample - which is quite possible - and the Order will only absorb 1 damage.

The Descendant does cost some more but it will not only stop most damage, but it can kill smaller creatures AND regain some of the lost life.

Both Order and Descendant should be played after you played the first Wrath of God (preferably on turn 3 thanks to a signet), killing the first strike team of the aggro deck.

I like the Order, no doubt about that, but it is only efficient with something like a Sunforger attached to it.

PS: a control/combo player will laught at your 0/1 undestructible defender, proudly protecting his ground while a Descendant might gain you some life by attacking. But in general, they will both be dead cards.

EDIT: @ La_Sin_Grail Wrath of God costs double white. You need to play that card asap so ww should be coming out in a consistent way to win.

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:15 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

True that WoG costs double white... but if you’re playing a sugnet turn two, it won’t help get to descendant. If you can WoG turn three, you won’t even need descendant or order anyway. If you can WoG turn three and they don’t have too much burn, that is.

The First

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:27 pm

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 195 Location: Anderlecht, Belgium

Yes, if you play the signet on turn 2, that’s not so good. You should only do that if you either rely on lots of burn and removal or if you have a Wrath in hand. Otherwise, you want to keep that 2 mana for counterspells.

I agree that both aren’t THAT useful anyway. Even though the Descendant can gain life after the first Wrath to put you at a more confortable level. But Faith’s Fetters and Psychic Drain should be able to do the same.

Felipe Musco

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:56 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

My point is exactly that. Fetter’s will gain me some life, if I need it, and I DO intend to play Wrath on turn 3. I’m not worried about what happens AFTER, since I’ll be milling about 20 cards/turn, which means bye bye overwhealm. But if I can stop their first turn Kird Ape, then they won’t have second turn Scab-Clans as tramplers, and this means, given the board situation I’m in, I COULD wait to Wrath on turn four, thus building a nice milling hand before, so my opponent has no time to recover. If a draw a Kami on my first hand, I’ll have to sacrifice it on turn two, yes, but it’ll do the trick. However, if I draw a Descendant, it’ll do me no good. Also, since my milling technique is rather cheap, and I probably WILL mill a lot of lands, thus slowing their deck, I usually won’t have a big enough Descendant after turn 6 to make it worth the early pain. And I’ll probably be Wrathing again on turn 6-7, anyway, so it won’t stay alive too long... Last, if they won’t be that big, might as well stick with Fetter’s, as they keep me in control after the first Wrath, and, if things get ugly, Dimir Infiltrator. Oh, and let’s not forget, I CAN counter at least SOME key spells...

I don't like YOU.

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:59 am

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

You can’t expect to draw two wrath of god. That’s just plain silly. There’s only three in the deck! (There should be four). Waiting for turn four against gruul is silly. They’ll have free swing time and then they can burn to your head for the win. Against Orzhov, I can understand, but against Gruul/Zoo you’re shooting yourself in the foot. You need to add another wrath and then you’ll have one pretty consistantly by turn 3 (about 2/3 of the time)

Felipe Musco

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:01 pm

Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 2434 Location: Florianópolis, SC, Brasil

Yeah, I was thinking abou it, too, but what to cut? Oh, and you do see my point about Order, right?

I don't like YOU.

La_Sin_Grail

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:11 pm

Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 806 Location: Maryland

Um. My theory in deckbuilding is not to cut what you don’t need, but to keep what you need. The deck should START with 4x Wrath of god, not be altered to get there.

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