What are some anti-Gollum strategies?

[Cw0rk]

I think that you could just splash a copy of Faramir, SoD in order to stop They Stole It. It will also help you if you encounter Easterling Captain.

[bibfortuna25]

Shelob, Her Ladyship will target Faramir exclusively in that situation, however.

[sgtdraino]

You can't discard more conditions than there are in play.

Granted. But if the opponent uses Deceit to remove a twilight and prevent you from discarding one of those conditions, do you think you should be able to keep trying to discard it until the twilight is gone, since the card says "discard any number," and gollum conditions are still in play?

[bibfortuna25]

I would argue that Deceit "saves" the condition, and Clever Hobbits can't target it again, unless of course you play a second Clever Hobbits.

[sgtdraino]

I would argue that Deceit "saves" the condition, and Clever Hobbits can't target it again, unless of course you play a second Clever Hobbits.

According to the Archives, this is not the case:

http://lotrtcgwiki.com/forums/index.php/topic,7172.0.html

so i think i can use clever hobbits and discart my oponet gollum condition right?but how it works if the oponet  have a deceit in play?

Also, you could play Clever Hobbits and then continually attempt to discard a condition until they ran out of twilight.

thats is what i want to know i can discart one , he prevent, discart it again, he prevent until runs all the pool?

Yes.

I can't find anything definitive in comprehensive rules or current rulings, though.

[Elessar's Socks]

I'm thinking back to the Fortress Never Fallen example in the CRD and wondering if that can be applied here. FNF also involves being able to choose several conditions to discard, which are then discarded simultaneously. If simultaneous discarding is also the case with Clever Hobbits, then I'd argue--since there's only one sweep--it can't needle a condition out of existence.

[bibfortuna25]

When you play Clever Hobbits, you choose a number up to X, where X is the number of conditions in play. The actual process of discarding them goes one at a time, so Deceit can respond to each one in turn, but you still can't select the same condition more than once.

[sgtdraino]

I think the issue is that cards like Fortress Never Fallen and Saruman's Power define a number to be discarded when they are activated, while Clever Hobbits states "any number." I think the real consideration is whether or not you can set a number that is higher than the number of conditions out on the table. Taking your Fortress Never Fallen example, it seems like the answer to that question is "yes." Fortress Never Fallen might have 9 tokens on it, so by the wording of the card, when activated, it will discard 9 shadow conditions. But if there are only 3 shadow conditions on the table, it will discard those, and that will be the end of it. I see it as being a bit similar to assigning threat wounds: Suppose my fellowship has only three vitality remaining, and I have to assign 9 threat wounds. Suppose I prevent three of those wounds from hitting my guys, by whatever means. I'd still have 6 more I have to prevent, or I'm dead.

I couldn't find the CRD reference to Fortress Never Fallen you were talking about. Can you point me to it? If FNF can have 9 tokens on it, and Deceit can prevent it from discarding its total of 3 conditions by just taking out 3 twilight, then it seems to me that Clever Hobbits would be equally ineffective.

There's also the issue of where the "single sweep" idea comes from. Can you point me to it, in the CRD or CR?

When you play Clever Hobbits, you choose a number up to X, where X is the number of conditions in play. The actual process of discarding them goes one at a time, so Deceit can respond to each one in turn, but you still can't select the same condition more than once.

I think this is key... but where are you getting that? What rule states that X can't be a number higher than the number of conditions you can spot? FNF seems like it violates that.

[bibfortuna25]

FNF and Clever Hobbits have different wordings. The wording on the card is always the most important thing.

FNF targets one Shadow condition at a time up until the amount of tokens on it are exhausted, or there are no more Shadow conditions available. Clever Hobbits is worded completely differently.

[sgtdraino]

FNF and Clever Hobbits have different wordings. The wording on the card is always the most important thing.

Agreed. However, in this case, I think we're going to need some actual CRD/CR citations, and so far I haven't seen any.

FNF targets one Shadow condition at a time up until the amount of tokens on it are exhausted, or there are no more Shadow conditions available.

Your statement is contrary to this:

I'm thinking back to the Fortress Never Fallen example in the CRD and wondering if that can be applied here. FNF also involves being able to choose several conditions to discard, which are then discarded simultaneously. If simultaneous discarding is also the case with Clever Hobbits, then I'd argue--since there's only one sweep--it can't needle a condition out of existence.

So, which one of you is right? And where's the actual CRD/CR reference?

Clever Hobbits is worded completely differently.

Clever Hobbits states "any number." I've heard that X can't be more than you can spot, I've heard you can only do "one sweep," I've heard that one activation of Deceit protects a condition for the duration of the entire discarding action... but I have not yet heard where it is the rules actually confirm this to be the case. I think it's time to see some actual citations.

[bibfortuna25]

FNF says to "discard a Shadow condition for each token here." So if there are 5 tokens there, you actually undertake 5 individual actions of discarding a single Shadow condition, each of which can be responded to when appropriate. If something prevents discarding one condition, you can still target that condition again, assuming you have more tokens you haven't "used up."

Clever Hobbits asks you to choose a number of conditions to discard. Since you can't spot, discard or otherwise do anything to cards that are not in play, with some obvious exceptions, the context of Clever Hobbits clearly indicates that number is limited by the amount of conditions in play. Now once you have chosen the number, say 4, Clever Hobbits then becomes "Discard 4 conditions." And then it becomes no different than any other card that can discard multiple conditions. If you play Secret Sentinels, you would choose your two conditions first, then Deceit can respond to one or both of them. You can't pick the same condition twice.

Anytime you have a rules question, it can almost always be solved simply by reading the words that are printed on the card.

[MarcinS]

FNF says to "discard a Shadow condition for each token here." So if there are 5 tokens there, you actually undertake 5 individual actions of discarding a single Shadow condition, each of which can be responded to when appropriate. If something prevents discarding one condition, you can still target that condition again, assuming you have more tokens you haven't "used up."

I wouldn't be so sure. You are referring (I assume) to the "For each" entry in the Comprehensive Rules, however it clearly states, that it only applies to exerting, wounding or healing.

To provide a counter-example, if always discarding of multiple cards was done one-by-one (choose one, discard, choose another, discard, etc.) then the card Siege Engine would not be usable, as it clearly refers to "If one or more machines are about to be discarded".

[sgtdraino]

FNF says to "discard a Shadow condition for each token here." So if there are 5 tokens there, you actually undertake 5 individual actions of discarding a single Shadow condition, each of which can be responded to when appropriate. If something prevents discarding one condition, you can still target that condition again, assuming you have more tokens you haven't "used up."

But the important bit, is that FNF sets the number at 5, even if there are only 2 conditions on the table. X can be higher than the number of conditions out there, and from that point on it's simply a matter of:

If the effect of a card or special ability requires
you to perform an action and you cannot, you
must perform as much as you can and ignore the
rest.

Deceit does not protect a condition for the duration of the entire action, it only protects it from one discard. If there are still discards left to be performed, and no more twilight to be taken out by Deceit, then it seems to me the rest of FNF's action trumps Deceit. The same should go for Clever Hobbits.

Clever Hobbits asks you to choose a number of conditions to discard.

Clever Hobbits says to choose any number.

Since you can't spot, discard or otherwise do anything to cards that are not in play, with some obvious exceptions, the context of Clever Hobbits clearly indicates that number is limited by the amount of conditions in play.

I disagree. The FNF example already demonstrates that X can be greater than the number of conditions on the table, and once X is defined, the effects of the card must be carried out to the fullest extent possible. I see nothing that says you cannot pick a number higher than the number of conditions you can spot. The word "spot" is nowhere on the card.

Suppose, for example, the card did set a specific number (as many condition-discarding cards do). It is entirely possible for that number to be higher than the number of conditions on the table, and the effects of the card must be carried out as completely as possible. The rules state that cards are discarded one at a time, just as wounds are applied one at a time. If you have a character with 2 vitality, it is possible to target that character with 8 wounds, and if 2 of them are prevented, the character still dies, because X = 8. The same should apply to discarding cards: if X=8, but there are only 2 cards out there, preventing 2 cards from being discarded means that 6 more must still be discarded.

Now once you have chosen the number, say 4, Clever Hobbits then becomes "Discard 4 conditions."

True, except I don't see where I couldn't choose 40 instead of 4.

And then it becomes no different than any other card that can discard multiple conditions. If you play Secret Sentinels, you would choose your two conditions first, then Deceit can respond to one or both of them. You can't pick the same condition twice.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Secret Sentinels discards 10 conditions instead of 2. Wouldn't the effects of that card need to be carried out to the fullest extent possible? Even with Secret Sentinels, it's possible for X to be greater than the number of conditions on the table.

Anytime you have a rules question, it can almost always be solved simply by reading the words that are printed on the card.

Most of the time.

To provide a counter-example, if always discarding of multiple cards was done one-by-one (choose one, discard, choose another, discard, etc.) then the card Siege Engine would not be usable, as it clearly refers to "If one or more machines are about to be discarded".

Well, CR states:

discard
The default meaning of the word "discard"
discard from play." Discarding from othe
ocations (such as from your hand or from
op of your draw deck) is always specified.
Cards are discarded one at a time so all players
can see which cards are being discarded.

[bibfortuna25]

Not all cards that discard multiple conditions work the same way. Sleep, Caradhras, FNF and Clever Hobbits all can discard multiple conditions, but are vastly different in their actual function

Siege Engine can protect multiple other machines from Sleep, but not from FNF. And if Siege Engine happened to be in the culture, it could protect them from Clever Hobbits.

"For each" doesn't just apply to wounds or heals; it applies in every other similar situation in the game. Otherwise, Curse Their Foul Feet wouldn't work.

[MarcinS]

Well, CR states:

discard
The default meaning of the word "discard"
discard from play." Discarding from othe
ocations (such as from your hand or from
op of your draw deck) is always specified.
Cards are discarded one at a time so all players
can see which cards are being discarded.

So, how is the Siege Engine working in this case? I'm FP player and I have an effect that says - "discard 3 shadow conditions".

1. I choose non-engine condition, you can't prevent me from discarding, it's discarded.
2. I choose engine condition, you use Siege Engine and prevent me from doing that, Siege Engine is discarded.
3. I choose engine condition, you can't use Siege Engine anymore, as it is already discarded, and you have failed preventing me from discarding "any number of Engines".

Long time I highlighted that problem when I started working on Gemp-LotR, that rules are inconsistent in that point, and postulated (that's how it's done in Gemp-LotR) that whenever you do X things (except for exert/wound/heal "for each") you choose all the affected cards, then any "is about it" happen, then you proceed with the effect, unless the effect was prevented in whole, or you just prevented part of the effect, in that case only non-prevented affected cards had the effect done on them. This is both intuitive and at all possible to implement. I'm afraid rules (and cards) are contradicting each other, hence no perfect solution can be made.