"Killed" vs. "placed in the dead pile"

[DáinIronfoot]

I am positive this topic has been covered elsewhere, but I can't seem to find it. So....

Rather than try and just explain my conundrum, I'll make it more interesting with a scenario. My starting fellowship includes Gandalf, Leader of Men. In my deck, I have a better version of Gandalf that I want to play. Prepared for this, I have two copies of Sent Back on the table. I discard one to use its text: "discard each minion skirmishing a Wizard; place that Wizard in your dead pile", discarding all minions skirmishing Gandalf and placing Gandalf in my dead pile. My plan is to use my remaining Sent Back to play my better Gandalf during the regroup phase.

My opponent, sniffing out my plan, has Grima, Footman of Saruman in play. He immediately jumps for joy, claiming he now gets to use Grima's ability: "Each time a Free Peoples character is killed, you may spot another minion to exert each companion." I argue that Gandalf has not been "killed", but instead "placed in my dead pile", and state that the two are seperate actions.

So, my question: who is right? Is being "placed in the dead pile" just a longer way of saying "killed"? Are the two identical, or seperate actions?

By the way, that scenario is bogus. What I'm REALLY wondering is if I can burn Theoden, Tall and Proud with Saved From The Fire (which also "places a companion in the dead pile") and grab an extra companion using Theoden's text. If so, I think I found a truly awesome combo. And if not, I may just weep a little instead.

[HawkeyeSPF]

"Placed in the dead pile" is the same as "Killed"

http://lotrtcg.fanhq.com/Resources/PDF/LOTR-rulescomp40.pdf

Page 10, Dead Pile, Last Sentence:

Killed Free Peoples characters are placed in your dead pile. The dead pile is separate from and next to your discard pile.
When you have a unique companion or ally in your dead pile, you cannot play another copy of that card, or any other card with the same title. You may play another copy of a non-unique card that is in your dead pile.
When game text instructs you to place a character in the dead pile, that character has been killed.

To answer your questions, both Grima and Theoden would work. Grima would be able to exert each of your other companions, and Theoden would be able to play a companion.

[Olorin]

Following situation:

Gandalf Bearer of Obligation + Erland + Jarnsmid + Treebeard

I have got 3 threats. One copy of Radagast is in the dead pile.
I play borne far away. I place Treebeard from hand into the dead pile to take Radagast from the dead pile into hand...
Then I play Radagast.

Question 1: is Treebeard now dead? Have I to place the Treebeard in play now also in the dead pile?
Question 2: do the threats trigger now?

 

[DáinIronfoot]

Not sure about the first question...tricky situation there. If a character is indeed killed when he/she is placed in the dead pile, though, then I don't see why the threats WOULDN'T trigger. So I'm 99% certain the answer to the second question is "yes".

[Elessar's Socks]

Question 1: is Treebeard now dead? Have I to place the Treebeard in play now also in the dead pile?

It's like Schroedinger's tree, with a mixture of dead and alive states!

You don't place the Treebeard in play in your dead pile because the rules don't instruct you to do so. However a copy of Treebeard is considered to be in the dead pile regardless of whether another copy is in play, so that counts for the Rule of 9 among other things.

Question 2: do the threats trigger now?

Not completely sure about this, but I think exchanging a card might be a special case. Seems like there's a difference between game text instructing you to place a character in the dead pile (e.g. Sent Back), and a character winding up in the dead pile some other way. The "game text instructing" part bothers me because it's like the rules are checking for a specific phrase ("place a character in the dead pile"), instead of simply saying a character that enters the dead pile through any method counts as being killed.

I'm thinking the threats don't trigger, but again it's not something I can say with certainty.

[lem0nhead]

Threats dont trigger, its a swap/exchange, you are not placing anything in the dead pile. There was 1 card in it when you played bfa and there is still one in it when you finish and no1 has actually died. 

[Olorin]

How can it be, that Treebeard is in play and also in the dead pile?

does this count to the rule of nine? (it's a unique character) - it is in play - but also dead... 

[lem0nhead]

I guess borne far away is like sent back. It is a card that allows circumnavigating the unique dead rule. It would count to the rule of 9, if you had treebeard out with 7 companions and a treebeard in the dead pile i would say you cant play anymore comps, but if treebeard then dies... im not sure how that would work... would 2 copies of him be in the dead pile adding to the rule of 9.....

Thats hard. Sorry Olorin i think you'll have to use your discretion.

[Elessar's Socks]

How can it be, that Treebeard is in play and also in the dead pile?

Because the rules don't say to discard a unique companion in play if a copy is in the dead pile. The rules do prevent you from playing a unique companion, but if it's already in play, then it'll stay in play.

does this count to the rule of nine? (it's a unique character) - it is in play - but also dead... 

The Rule of 9
You cannot have more than nine total companions in play and in your dead pile at any time. (Each copy of a companion in play or in your dead pile counts as a separate companion, whether it is unique or non-unique.)

The stuff in parentheses answers your question. As far as the Rule of 9 is concerned, they both count toward the total, regardless of whether one is in play and the other is in the dead pile, or if they both wind up in the dead pile. Basically each companion card in play and in the dead pile count toward the total.

Might not make the most storyline sense, but stranger things have happened.

[Olorin]

Hi,

thanks for answering...

...as far as I know, there is a trick with wizards and sent back:

if I have got 4 copies of Gandalf and 4 copies of Radagast in the dead pile, they count as two companions... because they are unique...  (Only Radagast and Gandalf are dead - they are just two guys)... and not eight... 

[Ulmo]

As far as the Rule of 9 is concerned, there are 8 companions in the dead pile, which means you should only have the ring bearer in play.
Any other companions in play would be illegal.

[DáinIronfoot]

This is what makes cards like Falls of Rauros so valuable.

[Kralik]

This is what makes cards like Falls of Rauros so valuable.

Is "out of play" a different stack than dead/discarded? I'm not too familiar with this terminology... although I noticed a lot of the newer cards (say, Southfarthing Leaf) use "discard ... from play"

[Thranduil]

"Discarding from play" is very different to "placing out of play". The former is equivalent to simply discarding (the "from play" being technically superfluous, but put in every now and again to make it clear). The latter is equivalent to removing from the game, EDIT: which Anvar has kindly explained below!

Thranduil

[Anvar]

Discard from play, means put in the discard pile. The words "from play" are not strictly necessary since the default for the "discard" in LotR is from play, but in later sets Decipher added it because they thought it added clarity.

Removing a card from play is something else entirely, see cards like Kindreds Estranged. Removing a card from the game means it is not in your draw deck, discard pile, or dead pile. It is in a new place called being removed from the game. Currently, there are no ways of returning a card to the game that has been removed from it.

Hope that helps.

UPDATED - just noticed that Falls of Rauros uses different terminology to Kindreds Estranged... Silly decipher.

[Kralik]

Good, that's what I was thinking, but I wanted to make sure... Why did Decipher muddy the waters with adding "from play" to "discard"

[Anvar]

Believe it or not, I think they were trying to clear the waters!

In Magic, for example, discard always means from hand.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Schroedinger's Ent...that's a good one.

[TheJord]

Maybe I missed something but Decipher also stated that the default meaning of "discard" was to discard from hand

[Elf_Lvr]

Uh... that's incorrect. The default meaning of discard is "from play." See Blood Runs Chill.

[TheJord]

Sorry typo I meant from play, I had just read the CRD to double check

[sgtdraino]

I suspect I know the answer to this, but let's see what you guys think:

Let's say I use Saved from the Fire and target a Wraith, to place that Wraith in the dead pile.

THEN I use Elessar's Edict, which states "If a Wraith is about to be killed, discard him and exhaust another Wraith instead."

Have I just prevented paying the cost for Saved from the Fire, and thus also prevented myself from using Saved from the Fire's effect? Or was the cost transformed from one thing to another thing?

[bibfortuna25]

Yes, you have prevented the cost, meaning SFTF wouldn't be able to pull any cards.