Author Topic: when multi-playin' (Read 16567 times)

daisukeman · « **on:** February 10, 2009, 11:07:46 AM »

Yes, me again.

I just had this multiplayer doubt from long time ago (and I wanted to make use of the expertise gathered in this forum..

); it goes:
In a multiplayer game, how does the rule of 4 cards apply?
...

While having many shadow players, each can have 4 under the watching eye conditions, how does these become active? --imagine in a 4 people game, moving with 12 exerts..
If there's any restriction on the activeness of conditions, is there any with minions? (moria scout can be deadly in multiplayer --imagine again in a 4 people game, having to face 12 of them for free if you have an elf)

sickofpalantirs · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2009, 11:26:38 AM »

I was wondering this too, I know its in the comprehensive somewhere...and uniqueness, with for example, a 2 worry.

veBu · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2009, 11:43:57 AM »

Only first four copies of same shadow conditions closest to the right are effective (other copies are also active but their game text is ignored)

Thranduil · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:43:11 PM »

I didn't know this, but this is a direct quote from the comprehensive rulebook:

Occasionally in a multiplayer game, two copies of the same unique Shadow condition may be in play at the same time. Only the first copy of a unique Shadow condition (or the first 4 copies of a non-unique Shadow condition) closest to the right of the Free Peoples player are in effect at any time. All other copies are also active, but their game text is ignored.

daisukeman · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:50:00 PM »

Yeah, but in the case of minions how is this handled? -or events, any shadow card for that matter..
(Off course not unique minions being around twice, but more than 4 copies of the same minion. Again, ex: Moria Scout / Goblin Runner / <name your own..>)

FM · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:55:27 PM »

Minions are fine as far as I know, and of course, uniqueness works the same way. If a player plays a unique minion, you can't play another one with the same name.

Thranduil · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2009, 01:20:51 PM »

I can't find anything in the rules that states specifically anything about possessions, artifacts, minions or any card-type other than conditions. I'm not sure what to make of this... It seems like it's such a specific rule that it would be clarified explicitly for all card types...

Obviously, if there's a unique card active, you cannot play another copy of that card. But say one Shadow player in a previous turn played Saruman, SoS and it's now their FP turn, you can obviously play your Saruman because SoS is not active. But there doesn't seem to be anything about superfluous cards losing their game text like it does on conditions (so if your Saruman, SoS was active with the other player's SoS, it seems like you can use them both).

Thranduil

Kralik · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2009, 02:12:41 PM »

You cannot play conditions or possessions on your opponent's minions, but you can use events in their skirmishes, etc. I don't remember offhand about special abilities.

The risks of say, 16 Moria Scout's, are the risks you have to take when playing multiplayer. In the times I've played it, it seems much more likely to see the players die than make it to site 9. But you also have to keep in mind that the Shadow players need to coordinate. Sometimes a Shadow player may get selfish with twilight so that they can cycle their hand better. I remember back in Fellowship games convincing other Shadow players to give me twilight and then getting some 4x Orc Bowmen and 4x Under the Watching Eye out. Obviously, they weren't too thrilled with me when it backfired and killed their own fellowships.

Gerontius · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2009, 06:42:24 PM »

This is a little different but probably not worth opening another topic about....
If 1 person plays an annoying condition, can I during the turn of another player play Gate Sentry and discard that condition? Technically the condition is active, and Gate Sentry just says "discard a condition".........

Thranduil · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2009, 06:45:52 PM »

Quote from: The Old Took on February 10, 2009, 06:42:24 PM

This is a little different but probably not worth opening another topic about....
If 1 person plays an annoying condition, can I during the turn of another player play Gate Sentry and discard that condition? Technically the condition is active, and Gate Sentry just says "discard a condition".........

Assuming it's not that player's FP turn, then yes.

Thranduil

Gerontius · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2009, 07:41:27 PM »

Thanks.

leokula · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2009, 02:28:05 AM »

lem0n should know, he played multi-player for ages.

lem0nhead · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2009, 02:32:12 AM »

Quote from: leokula on February 11, 2009, 02:28:05 AM

lem0n should know, he played multi-player for ages.

About which bit? Im not sure which bits are left unanswered. As kralik says you cant play stuff on others minions but u can affect them with your conditions and events. Thran is right, the funniest thing in multiplayer is using your shadow condition removal to remove another shadow players stuff if its harming your freeps for example!

Uniqueness is the same for posessions/artifacts etc if its already out and active you cant play it.

Is there anything else?

Kralik · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:18:08 AM »

What was the order for special abilities and events? Was it first Shadow player to the right and around in a circle, or Freeps - Shadow 1 - Freeps - Shadow 2 - Freeps - Shadow 3...?

lem0nhead · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:20:53 AM »

Yeah pretty much goes in the order of the table, the direction you are going round in. Same with responses, everyone gets a chance to respond to stuff in the same order.

daisukeman · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:54:25 AM »

Quote from: The Old Took on February 10, 2009, 06:42:24 PM

This is a little different but probably not worth opening another topic about....
If 1 person plays an annoying condition, can I during the turn of another player play Gate Sentry and discard that condition? Technically the condition is active, and Gate Sentry just says "discard a condition".........

yeah: seen it; been there and done that too.
About unique cards there's no doubt. The ruling contemplates uniqueness, multiplayer style or not.But:

Quote from: Kralik on February 10, 2009, 02:12:41 PM

You cannot play conditions or possessions on your opponent's minions, but you can use events in their skirmishes, etc. I don't remember offhand about special abilities.

The risks of say, 16 Moria Scout's, are the risks you have to take when playing multiplayer. In the times I've played it, it seems much more likely to see the players die than make it to site 9.

It kinda sux having to face 16 Moria Scout because as you stated, given those cases, firsts players never make it to even site 7.
I guess I'm wishing to hear that no more than 4 same-minions can be active too. Wouldn't it be more playable and go according to the multiplayer conditions restriction?
16 goblin runners??? that's an abuse, there's no defense against that

Kralik · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2009, 12:27:19 PM »

Quote from: lem0nhead on February 11, 2009, 07:20:53 AM

Yeah pretty much goes in the order of the table, the direction you are going round in. Same with responses, everyone gets a chance to respond to stuff in the same order.

So all Shadow players get an action before Freeps can respond?

Quote from: daisukeman on February 11, 2009, 07:54:25 AM

16 goblin runners??? that's an abuse, there's no defense against that

What are the odds that 4 Shadow players will ALL get 4x Goblin Runners and decide to hold onto them and play them against you? And that all Shadow players chose the same culture even? It's more often in multiplayer that your opponents' Shadows don't work so perfectly.

lem0nhead · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:11:27 AM »

Sorry Kralik i meant to agree with your first post about that and not confuse you, yeah the freeps gets a response between each one. Three shadow players couldnt play a hate one after the other without you getting a chance of playing on guard or discarding sapling of the white tree etc...

Also i dont *think* you cann play 16 of anything. The rules still apply that only 4 of something can be active at one time as in one deck to avoid abuse like that. I am not 100% sure on this but I have a fair amount of confidence in it.

Can anyone back me up?

Hawks?

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:09:02 AM »

On Guard goes "in a level" by responding to the wound from Hate, though. If it was just another maneuver phase action like Stand Against Darkness, would the FP player have to wait in that case?

Bah, I've gotten so fuzzy on the action procedure. The AP steps through all successive triggers (i.e. responses to responses) starting from the "base" trigger, right? So if it's the around-the-circle, and there are three Shadow players, would it work like this?

FP
S1
S2
S3
FP
S1
S2
S3
FP
S1
S2
S3
FP
S1
S2
S3

(Basically if you string the whole thing out, it cycles.)

Pepin The Breve · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:25:58 AM »

I know that if you have 16 copies of Under The Watching Eye in play, only the first 4 perform their text (althought the others still as active cards) but i can't remember any references in the rulebook for minions, so i'm not sure if they go the same way (i think they don't).

I have played some multiplayer game and in fact it's more likely the shadow players fights each other fopr twilight to free their hands or even save killer cards to use against an strongest opponent (or someone in a situation that the cards would be nasty). I have seen more than one time one shadow player refuses to help the other to finish of some player just to allow that player shadow to help his own to stop the opponent who usually is running ahead or with a well seted up freeps.

Anyway it's great fun!

PS: and i agree with Kralik: it's much harder to get the ring to site 9 without having some serious trouble in the way

maybe the best way is use the help of other to kill some opponents then when you get 1 x 1 you run ahead and win!

lem0nhead · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2009, 03:43:17 AM »

Quote from: Pepin The Breve on February 12, 2009, 03:25:58 AM

I know that if you have 16 copies of Under The Watching Eye in play, only the first 4 perform their text (althought the others still as active cards) but i can't remember any references in the rulebook for minions, so i'm not sure if they go the same way (i think they don't).

This is true about the conditions but im pretty sure you cant have more than 4 of the same minion out. I need a D agent or ex decipher employee to back me up,

sickofpalantirs · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:09:57 AM »

multiplayer is almost a whole different game...you know someone should write an article about it.

Generally about 50% of my games are multiplayer and its definitly in sane. Generally one person will be able to get to site 9, but almost always they leave at least one battered bruised and possibly burdened fellowship behind.

it gets really interesting in 4 player, when the move limit goes up to 4

re: the topic at hand, its such an unfeasible situation, I mean even getting 5, anything above a 4 player game is ridiculous, so lets say a 4 player game. first of all the chances are small that all 3 shadow players will be playing moria orcs. though if you could...I

I really don't see why you couldn't have more than 4 out though.
the rule is you can't have more than 4 in your deck, it says nothing about them being player, IMSO.

lem0nhead · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:20:56 AM »

I know it doesnt say anything about it but i dont think a lot of the precedents are in place in the rulebook for multiplayer.

Everyone stop disagreeing with me! I just want to wait an see if anyone else agrees, theres no point in 5 people all ridiculing me! Im already out on a limb so it wont be hard to make me look stupid! Its not hard at the best of times!

sickofpalantirs · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:32:39 AM »

feeling a little squeezed?

lem0nhead · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:42:52 AM »

Quote from: sickofpalantirs on February 12, 2009, 07:32:39 AM

feeling a little squeezed?

Thats terrible even for you!

leokula · « **Reply #25 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:16:08 AM »

ES, you do have serious issues understanding the rules, don't you? My God, what was that you just wrote?

I agree with SOP on this being the most odd situation on a multiplayer game EVER.

Unless you intentionally want to try out the rules and call in 4 guys with moria decks and wait for them to get 4 of any goblin to play, you can rest assured it will never happen.

Never

Pepin The Breve · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:32:47 AM »

Well, if two oponents runs

swarm than it's pretty easy to get more than 5 runners at table... they just have to use Host of Thousands + They are coming and you can easly get 5 runners at table (probably one or two will be at players hand). So i guess it's not impossible at all, if you run a four player game against 3 moria swarm decks you probably would be swarmed by a ton of runners and scavengers every turn!

The fact is that i think there are nothing in the rulebook that prevent your opponents to play 12 copies of the same minion.

Kralik · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:36:35 AM »

Sorry lem0nhead, but I am quite certain that you can have more than four of the same minion out as long as it's not unique.

Quote from: Pepin The Breve on February 12, 2009, 03:25:58 AM

I have played some multiplayer game and in fact it's more likely the shadow players fights each other fopr twilight to free their hands or even save killer cards to use against an strongest opponent (or someone in a situation that the cards would be nasty). I have seen more than one time one shadow player refuses to help the other to finish of some player just to allow that player shadow to help his own to stop the opponent who usually is running ahead or with a well seted up freeps.

Absolutely true!

An article on multiplayer would be nice, and perhaps we could ask wlk to set up some multiplayer tables on GCCG (it supports up to 4). One general tip I can offer is to make your decks bigger, as you will cycle much faster. Usually an 80-card minimum for me for a 4-player game.

daisukeman · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:39:38 AM »

uh.. Although I'm actualy backing up lemonhead with no ruling phrase or experience recognition whatsoever; believe you me that in Fellowship block, seeing a lot of Moria happens.
Especially when players start (NB's?) and have not invested a lot of $ like us.

Off course, we are talking about a mulitplayer game of 4 max, and since I've noticed there are few Fellowship Block players here (some Kralik's prior posts), It's knownn Moria is kick #$&*@! in Multiplayer.
When asked:
-"Hey, want to Fellowship multiplay?"
It's kinda:
-"OK, I'll just take out my Moria deck"

Take a look at:
Dimrill Dale (1U350), Great Chasm (2U118), Summit of Amon Hen (1C362).

So yes, 12 runners can appear at a time because you bring them from discard and usually its the first and eternal minion played at each site by a Moria player.

EDIT:
Recall too, that in FotR there's only Nazgul (very hard deck to complete --money wise), Uruks, Sauron and Moria.

Kralik · « **Reply #29 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:47:11 AM »

IMO that's part of the craziness of multiplayer. It could happen to anyone!

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #30 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:52:53 AM »

I broke leokula's brain again.

Hate when that happens!

What I wrote was the action procedure for a FP player plus three Shadow players, since the question about the order of special abilities / responses (either around the table, or alternating) came up. Order might be wrong, but were the labels that difficult to understand?

leokula · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2009, 09:07:42 AM »

Yeah my brain is still on "Not Responding..." status... when it goes back to normal I'll try to look at that again

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2009, 09:16:05 AM »

If it helps, it's in the same format HawkeyeSPF gave, just in case there's a real confusion in how to read it.

lem0nhead · « **Reply #33 on:** February 13, 2009, 12:42:16 AM »

Until someone disproves me with actual facts Im awaiting someone like *hint* HAWKSEYE *hint*to agree with me because Im pretty sure i didnt pull this from thin air!

Say no to 16 Goblin Runners! Cheaters!

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #34 on:** February 13, 2009, 01:11:33 AM »

Here's how I see it. Not being able to play more than one copy of a unique minion is a gameplay restriction. Not generally being able to play more than four copies of a non-unique minion is a deck restriction. In multiplayer, Shadow players get to "combine decks." Uniqueness rule still applies (gameplay restriction), but now lots of Goblin Runners can join forces, and possibly die en masse to a well-timed PAtHS.

The lemon stand is all set up, but the Hawk can still save you! Or perhaps he, too, would like a sip of refreshing lemon juice.

lem0nhead · « **Reply #35 on:** February 13, 2009, 02:07:56 AM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on February 13, 2009, 01:11:33 AM

Or perhaps he, too, would like a sip of refreshing lemon juice.

Awww dude! Come on! Too far!

sickofpalantirs · « **Reply #36 on:** February 13, 2009, 06:55:51 AM »

so the question is, would we rather aid lem0n? or have lemonade?

Kralik · « **Reply #37 on:** February 13, 2009, 06:59:33 AM »

If life gives you lem0n, make lem0nade, that's what I say!

lem0nhead · « **Reply #38 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:09:37 AM »

Hey! No one GAVE you lem0n, im my own person! I belong to know one!

Now stop this fruitism!

Elessar's Socks · « **Reply #39 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:23:10 AM »

Soon while trying to fall asleep, lem0nhead won't be counting sheep jumping over the fence, but Goblin Runners! "1... 2... 3... 4... 4... 4..."

...What an impressive shield! We've still got some work to do, guys.

sickofpalantirs · « **Reply #40 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:17:25 PM »

Quote from: Elessar's Socks on February 13, 2009, 07:23:10 AM

Soon while trying to fall asleep, lem0nhead won't be counting sheep jumping over the fence, but Goblin Runners! "1... 2... 3... 4... 4... 4..."

ROLF.