Final Triumph and Coat of Mail

[Not a Zombie]

I'm also with teltara on this one. Coat of mail completely creates a new condition for overwhelming, namely that the strength must be tripled. Therefor, I would say he isn't overwhelmed.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

Coat of Mail isnt a cost/effect card. It prevents a certain situation from occuring, like how Rallying Cry stops the FP removing threats. However, the situation it prevents can no longer occur because strength is no longer a factor in the outcome of the skirmish.

So how do you distinguish this from The Tale of the Great Ring? The way I see it:

The Tale of the Great Ring works like this:
 - Restricted Action: The targeted Hobbit is prevented from being overwhelmed, unless
 - Added Requirement: A Shadow event is (or was) played during this skirmish.
This is despite the fact that Shadow events being played are not the basis on which skirmishes are resolved.

Coat of Mail works like this:
 - Restricted Action: Bearer cannot be overwhelmed, unless
 - Added Requirement: His strength is tripled.
So presumably, this should also work despite the fact that strength is not the basis on which the skirmish in question is resolved.

Or are you reading Coat of Mail to say "The overwhelming requirement is raised from doubling to tripling for skirmishes resolved on the basis of strength"?

Thanks for your input, everyone, by the way. I think it seems intuitively like Coat of Mail shouldn't work, but I really don't know how to distinguish Coat of Mail in this situation from The Tale of the Great Ring, since both add an overwhelm requirement that is different from the stat that is used for resolving the skirmish.

[legolas3333]

the tale of the great ring wouldn't matter in a final triumph situation because final triumph is an event, I'm with teltura.

[Smeagollum]

Coat of Mail isnt a cost/effect card. It prevents a certain situation from occuring, like how Rallying Cry stops the FP removing threats. However, the situation it prevents can no longer occur because strength is no longer a factor in the outcome of the skirmish.

But with com it is a factor again.

Bearer must be a Man. Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless his or her strength is tripled.

He can not be overwhelmed unless the strength is tripled. As Final triumph resolves the skirmish on vitality the bearer of com can't be overwhelmed, because he may not be overwhelmed unless strength is trippled. Final triumph becomes useless for overwhelming.

[ket_the_jet]

Whether or not you are using strength to determine the outcome of a skirmish (a.k.a., Final Triumph), you do have to look at strength to see if a companion is overwhelmed with Heavy Chain or Coat of Mail or Bounder or anything else of that sort.
-wtk

[TheJord]

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish ... Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

Final Triumph removes strength from the resolution.

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish ... Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

Final Triumph removes strength from the resolution.

But does Coat of Mail alter the resolution, or does it add a requirement for overwhelming (similar to The Tale of the Great Ring)? It seems to me that it adds an additional requirement. If Final Triumph wasn't an event, The Tale of the Great Ring would work, so why won't Coat of Mail?

Similarly, wouldn't Armor keep a companion from taking more than one wound from losing a skirmish involving Final Triumph, even though Armor doesn't directly affect vitality?

[Smeagollum]

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish ... Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

Final Triumph removes strength from the resolution.

Exactly and that's the same reason why bearer of com can't be overwhelmed, because his strength can't be trippled!

[TheJord]

His strength no longer matters, and Coat of Mail prevents overwhelms against the usual double strength, but strength is no longer factored into the resolution.

[TelTura]

... and Coat of Mail prevents overwhelms against the usual double strength, but strength is no longer factored into the resolution.

but the question remains, can he be overwhelmed?  Coat of Mail does not read, "Bearer may not be overwhelmed unless the factor being used to calculate the skirmish is tripled by the opponent", it simply says, "unless his strength is tripled". 

His strength no longer matters....

I think that's our main problem here.  Your argument seems to assume that Final Triumph makes every card that references strength to be moot, and I don't think that's the case.  If there were another card that said something like "While bearer is strength 6 or higher..." I think its effects would still be in play, even though the skirmish no longer relies on it for its consummation.



even though it's not a strict Cost/Effect event or ability, I still think the terminology is useful.  There is a cost of sorts....the strength must not be tripled.  And if that cost is fulfilled, then the effect is in play....bearer may not be overwhelmed.  I think rewording Coat of Mail like this would be the exact same thing:

"While a skirmishing minion's strength is less than triple bearer's, bearer may not be overwhelmed."

[MR. Lurtzy]

From the notes:

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played. Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

[Smeagollum]

From the notes:

The effect of this card changes the requirements for resolving a skirmish. As a result, none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played. Only cards or effects that increase or decrease vitality directly would alter the resolution of a skirmish in which this card was played.

We don't question the resolvement of the skirmish. We say: Okay you win, but as you can not tripple the strength you're not able to overwhelm; so just a wound.

[MR. Lurtzy]

If you read the notes, you would have noticed that it said none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played.

[MuadDib85]

I agree with Lurtzy. Although One Last Surprise still might negate the effect of Final Triumph... Depending on the order they are played maybe..

I also think that should Armor vs Final Triumph and the companion survives, he should take no more than one wound. (Although I think that part is pretty clear).

[TelTura]

If you read the notes, you would have noticed that it said none of the cards that previously had an effect on strength during a skirmish have any effect on a skirmish in which this card is played.

you'll also note that CoM and other similar actions don't have an effect on strength, rather, they have an effect that is based on strength.  There's a significant difference between the two.