Namarie (POLL)

[Kralik]

Just play a shadow without conditions.

Why limit your options so much?

[Olorin]

Well, it is a ridiculous strong card, but it only affects the shadows working with conditions. The real problem stays with Gil-Galad with his ability to retrieve conditions. Well, this will be an endless debate.

@Smeagollum: see here... play a shadow without conditions? Gil-Galad will abuse Namarie though and replay always all elven conditions... and by the way: why should we "ban" e.g. whole Moria instead of one single card, Namarie?

...and Kralik already said right, why minimaze our options of the game --> would be less fun playing without those numerous conditons.

[Elessar's Socks]

IMO both Namarie and Gil-galad need fixing. If banning Namarie will encourage more condition-based decks, then I won't be too sorry to see it go. I think there's precedence for banning cards based on meta decisions, Saruman's Snows and Lady Redeemed being examples.

Gil-galad can create some truly nasty set-ups, though it may take several sites, and run into competition from a quick-moving Ithilien Blade deck, get knocked out by Troll swarm, etc. I'll put aside the power level of these decks for now. My issue with him is being able to draw out an entire deck (or however much is needed), which like the FP filtering from the Erkenbrand's Horn / New Chapter combo, IMO breaks what cycling should be able to do.

[MuadDib85]

 My issue with him is being able to draw out an entire deck (or however much is needed

I agree. Even with namarie banned, Gil-Galad can still cycle a whole deck using other token cards.

But if Gil was banned and namarie not banned, namarie would still destroy any condition based shadow decks.

Maybe X-list Gil-Galad and Namarie? Personally I don't like using either card, would rather no-one use them than everyone use them.

[SomeRandomDude]

I don't think everyone knows the broken combo.

Perhaps someone would like to explain how the Gil-Galad infinite loop works?

Olorin is right. R-listing and making unique won't stop the combo. I would ban Gil-Galad, but nobody likes that idea.

[MR. Lurtzy]

Banning cards is taking the easy way out, if anything there should be an errata.

[SomeRandomDude]

Banning cards is the simplest solution- errata is difficult to keep track of and if we errata all these cards, we're gonna turn away new players really fast. Any hope of keeping the game alive and growing is killed the second we take the "don't ban, errata" option.

I've been a proponent of combo-banning for a while, though. Some cards are good on their own, but in combination with other cards create broken combos. Like Madril/Ithilien Blade, Keyward/Warg, etc.

[MuadDib85]

Perhaps someone would like to explain how the Gil-Galad infinite loop works?

Leaving Forever is the key to the loop. (with tokens).

You can keep replaying leaving forever in the regroup phase with Gil-Galad to draw 2 cards every time, effectively being able to draw your whole deck. You have to also use Gil-Galad to re-play your token cards over and over, and with Namarie being able to add possibly up to 8 tokens every time you play it, it enables Gil-Galad to cycle ALOT every time it is played.

You need Gil-Galad, HKoTN, Leaving Forever and some token cards...

[MR. Lurtzy]

Errata would fix that very easily: HKoTN regroup action changed to "At the start of the regroup phase remove an token...". Problem solved.

[MuadDib85]

So maybe if Leaving Forever is X-listed the loop is stopped.

Then Namarie could maybe be restricted to 1x copy per deck and might not be so game-altering.

With cards like Buckland Homestead and Ulaire Enquea, DL
You can deal with 1x namarie easily enough...

But Gil-Galad's ability is probably still going to be too overpowered (even if namarie was banned).
Secluded Homestead and Uncertain Future are a couple of other options instead of namarie for some decent tokens every time they are played.

[MuadDib85]

Errata would fix that very easily: HKoTN regroup action changed to "At the start of the regroup phase remove an token...". Problem solved.

Please explain how this would fix the problem.

[MR. Lurtzy]

You could only replay leaving forever 1 time.

[MuadDib85]

You could only replay leaving forever 1 time.

Maybe I'm missing something, but there would still be plenty of other tokens left...

[Kralik]

Since it's "at the start of the regroup phase" and not a regroup action, you cannot use it more than once.

[Olorin]

I don't think everyone knows the broken combo.

Perhaps someone would like to explain how the Gil-Galad infinite loop works?

Olorin is right. R-listing and making unique won't stop the combo. I would ban Gil-Galad, but nobody likes that idea.

I seriously thought about putting Gil-Galad onto the X-list coz as I said, he is likely the most broken card I ever saw...

I also want to speak out a serious caution/warning to go the way of errata... this will cause a lot of confusion and probably - as NBarden meant - break the game the neck once up a time...

Nevertheless... imagine here is Austria format you are playing with your hunter elves and Namarie vs. Moria... and you have got 5 tokens on Namarie... you discard 3 goblin armories and 2 goblin swarms.... do you think Moria will have a chance then? Hunter elves does so much direct wounding... Moria won't have a chance... if all conditions are discarded... of course there are also cards that discard all conditons like Grown suddenly tall, etc. but these are cards from the old sets... which means the fellowship is also an old one which realtives the problem of all conditions... and once again: One Namarie - even if r-listed - can with gil-galad be replayed... so R-listing or making Namarie unique doesn't change anything...

banning Gil-Galad... yeah... he is such a broken card I can't say... his regroup ability on his own is broken alone... and why does gil-galad need to abilities?
Erland e.g. has got far less srength, far less vitality... far less resistance... and only one ability... so here is the question: why should a play e.g. companions if there are elven comps that are just THAT much better then all other companions form other cultures... with a lot of impossible to discard artifacts... DDD (direct damage deluxe), minion discarding, overwhelming, healing, threat removal, cycling, fighting, etc.