LotR TCG Wiki → Card Sets:  All 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 → Forums:  TLHH CC

Author Topic: Rules challenge #1  (Read 3389 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

May 27, 2008, 08:51:17 AM
Read 3389 times

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Rules challenge #1
« on: May 27, 2008, 08:51:17 AM »
Ok, so let's get this moving again!
So, as to welcome newcomers (like we have any), let's start with some easy ones, shall we?

Question 1 (easy):
How many types of basic lands are there? List them.

Question 2 (medium):
Player A attacks with Hunted Wumpus. Player B taps 2 Swamps and plays Terror on it. In response, player A plays Stonewood Invocation on his Wumpus, claiming it survives since it now has Shroud. Player B claims it doesn't, since he already played the Terror, thus he has already targeted the Wumpus. Who's right, and why?

Question 3 (hard):
Player A calls you over, you being a judge, because he forgot to remove a time counter from his suspended Errant Ephemeron last turn. HAd he removed it, he'd be able to remove the last one now, and since it has haste and player B has no way of stopping it, it'd do the last 4 points of damage Player A needs to win the match. Player B claims that he saw player A forgetting to remove the counter, but didn't say anything since it'd cost him the game, and that he won't let Player A "go back in time". What do you do?

May 27, 2008, 09:54:00 AM
Reply #1

SomeRandomDude

  • ********
  • Information Offline
  • Maia
  • Posts: 7004
  • Most Likely To Usurp Kralik and Dáin
    • My Wordpress
Re: Rules challenge #1
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2008, 09:54:00 AM »
Ok, so let's get this moving again!
So, as to welcome newcomers (like we have any), let's start with some easy ones, shall we?

Question 1 (easy):
How many types of basic lands are there? List them.

Plains + Snow Covered Plains
Mountain + Snow Covered Mountain
Forest + Snow Covered Forest
Swamp + Snow Covered Swamp
Island + Snow Covered Island

Total: 10

Question 2 (medium):
Player A attacks with Hunted Wumpus. Player B taps 2 Swamps and plays Terror on it. In response, player A plays Stonewood Invocation on his Wumpus, claiming it survives since it now has Shroud. Player B claims it doesn't, since he already played the Terror, thus he has already targeted the Wumpus. Who's right, and why?

Player A is correct, as the target must be legitimate both when the spell is played and when it resolves. Hunted Wumpus is a legit target when the spell is played, but then gains shroud, and thus can't be targeted. Terror is countered upon resolution.

Question 3 (hard):
Player A calls you over, you being a judge, because he forgot to remove a time counter from his suspended Errant Ephemeron last turn. HAd he removed it, he'd be able to remove the last one now, and since it has haste and player B has no way of stopping it, it'd do the last 4 points of damage Player A needs to win the match. Player B claims that he saw player A forgetting to remove the counter, but didn't say anything since it'd cost him the game, and that he won't let Player A "go back in time". What do you do?

Player A receives a missed trigger penalty and player B receives a failure to maintain game state penalty. Since removing a counter has a visual effect on the game, and it occured after the turn was completed, the counter is not allowed to be removed.
NB- 4 year veteran of CC/TLHH

"It was like:
Kralik: "What hath God wrought"
NB: "I dunno, but I'm in ur house eating ur food.""
-Elessar's Socks

Trade List- ft. Aragorn, Defender of Rohan

May 28, 2008, 01:04:32 PM
Reply #2

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Rules challenge #1
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2008, 01:04:32 PM »
Anyone else?

June 24, 2008, 07:37:44 AM
Reply #3

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Rules challenge #1
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 07:37:44 AM »
Ok, I don't think anyone else is going to try it out for now, so let's answer it:

Question 1 (easy):
How many types of basic lands are there? List them.

There are 10 types of basic lands, Forest, Plains, Swamp, Mountain, Island and they're Snow-Covered counterparts, meaning you CAN play a deck with 20 Snow-Covered Mountains (back when Ice Age was out, you couldn't).

Question 2 (medium):
Player A attacks with Hunted Wumpus. Player B taps 2 Swamps and plays Terror on it. In response, player A plays Stonewood Invocation on his Wumpus, claiming it survives since it now has Shroud. Player B claims it doesn't, since he already played the Terror, thus he has already targeted the Wumpus. Who's right, and why?

Player A is. You must have a legal target to PLAY the spell, of course, but the target is checked AGAIN when the spell is about to resolve, and if the target is no longer legal, the spell is countered upon resolution. A Hunted Wumpus with shroud is no longer a legal target for a Terror, so Terror would get countered. As a bonus, player A could have played any amount of pump effects, like Giant Growth, in response to the Terror, let them resolve, and with Terror STILL on the stack waiting to resolve, THEN play Stonewood Invocation, "countering" only the Terror and making Wumpus all that much bigger.

Question 3 (hard):
Player A calls you over, you being a judge, because he forgot to remove a time counter from his suspended Errant Ephemeron last turn. Had he removed it, he'd be able to remove the last one now, and since it has haste and player B has no way of stopping it, it'd do the last 4 points of damage Player A needs to win the match. Player B claims that he saw player A forgetting to remove the counter, but didn't say anything since it'd cost him the game, and that he won't let Player A "go back in time". What do you do?

This is a trick question, actually. Pay attention to this line: Player B claims that he saw player A forgetting to remove the counter, but didn't say anything since it'd cost him the game. Both players are responsible for maintaining the game state, so in a regular situation where both of them had forgotten about the time counter, if a full turn has NOT passed, the judge can make the game "go bak in time" to the upkeep phase, giving a warning for player A for missed trigger and for player B for failure to maintain game state. If a full turn has already passed, the judge simply applies SBEs to rectify the game state, and the game continues as it is (with the same warnings being given to both players), so if a creature with protection from green was enchanted with a green aura, it'd fall off and be put in the graveyard, since it's an illegal game state, but the time counter WON'T be removed from the suspended permanent, since it's not illegal for it to be there (as a bonus, same goes for a creature with Persist that the owner forgot to bring back, when you apply SBEs, it's not illegal for it to be in the graveyard, so it remains there).
However, in this case, player B CLEARLY tried to obtain an illegal advantage, so the correct play would be to give player A a warning for missed trigger, and player B a disqualification without prizes.


June 24, 2008, 07:55:55 AM
Reply #4

Elessar's Socks

  • *****
  • Information Offline
  • Knight
  • Posts: 1353
  • "I see...I look foul and feel foul. Is that it?"
Re: Rules challenge #1
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 07:55:55 AM »
It's good that players are honest, but I've found it ironic that they can shoot themselves in the foot for volunteering more information than desirable (but hey, a cheater that confesses it is still a cheater). For example player B could've gone with "I didn't see it," but pulled out all the stops with "I saw it, and I ignored it hoping to win the game, too!!" DQ. No prizes. 'Course it would've been better for player B to remind player A in the first place, but I wonder how much of these true thoughts go unreported in high-level play--I mean, how would the judges know what the players were really thinking?

June 24, 2008, 02:52:45 PM
Reply #5

FM

  • Future Judge
  • *******
  • Information Offline
  • Wizard
  • Posts: 4074
Re: Rules challenge #1
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2008, 02:52:45 PM »
They usuallly go on a case-by-case basis, depending on the Rules Enforcement Level of the tournament (hey, at a GP, for instance, you are SUPPOSED to have a certain level of expertise, if you don't, too bad) and even the player him/herself.
For instance, Antoine Ruel (I think, might have been Olivier) got disqualified from a tournament, because his opponent was playing with a pair of mirrored shades "clipped" to his T-Shirt. Ruel tried to look at it to get a glimpse of his hand, and a judge actually saw him do it. Ruel tried to lie himself out of it, but it didn't stuck. DQ, no prizes.
Kenji Tsumura, (again, might have been another player, it's been a while) which got a LOT of warnings (usually under the excuse that a situation might have gone wrong due to communication issues) ended up getting a 6-month ban for repeting pattern of bad behavior, the DCI has a register under the player's tournament history of ALL the infractions that player might have commited.
I made that one as such to be as straightforward as possible, so players would catch the cheating intention. However, for instance, if player B played REALLY fast to get a turn gone so the game can't be reversed back, it might ALSO indicate he saw that. And in such cases, a judge could even allow the game to rewind back to the appropriate phase, since judges have the last word on each situation.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 02:55:34 PM by Felipe Musco »