Durin's Secret Society of Dear Friends

[Witchkingx5]

interesting idea that you have, but you're missing one point: timing. First, it's very hard to get enough twilight to play all of these cards, and Isengard Smith is Regroup if you want your Deck mono-cultural. But anyway, nice idea, Samy!

[Kralik]

Versus this particular deck, twilight is a non-issue.

[ket_the_jet]

Sam, I like your idea, but those are a lot of separate parts of different cultures and the stars would really have to align for you to be able to do something like that more than once or twice...ever.
-wtk

[DeadCeLL]

You cant discard your deck with BtM unless you a dwarf weapon in your discard pile to play.  There has to be a valid target when the cost of the action is payed.

You are wrong. You can discard your entire deck with BTM even if you have no dwarven weapons in your deck at all.

Taken from Page 11 of the Comprehensive Rules 4.0:
"If an action plays a card from your hand (or discard pile) as part of its effect, then that card must be in your hand (or discard pile) before you can begin to perform that action.
i.e. The Orc you play with They Are Coming ("Shadow: Discard 3 cards from hand to play a ? Orc from your discard pile.") cannot be one of the cards you discarded from your hand to pay the cost of that special ability.
If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect. Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card."

[DeadCeLL]

^ id say that it says quite clearly you cannot discard the cards unless you play a dwarf weapon.

[ket_the_jet]

To expand from that paragraph from the CRD:

If an action plays a card from your hand (or discard pile) as part of its effect, then that card must be in your hand (or discard pile) before you can begin to perform that action.

The Orc you play with They Are Coming ("Shadow: Discard 3 cards from hand to play a Orc from your discard pile.") cannot be one of the cards you discarded from your hand to pay the cost of that special ability.

If you meet all the requirements and pay all the costs for playing a card, you may play that card even if the card will have no effect. Exception: If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck).

Well, there is always Ever My Heart Rises to discard the whole deck.
-wtk

[Sam, Great Elf Warrior]

I think that's too broad an interpretation; based on the example in the clarification, I think it was intended to say that if you discard a card to pay the costs of the action, you can't play the card you just discarded as the effect of that action.

So if one of the cards you discard from the top of your draw deck for BtM is, say Gimli's Battle Axe, you can't use it to play that copy of Gimli's Battle Axe. This is all that that rule is intended to prevent.

As long as you're not playing a weapon as part of the effect of BtM, the rule about actions playing cards from your discard pile doesn't apply because you're not actually playing a card from your discard pile.

[Elessar's Socks]

If you perform an action that has playing a card from hand or discard pile as part of its effect, you must play that card. This exception applies to all kinds of actions and all the different ways you can play a card (except playing a card directly from your draw deck).

This is a separate ruling from the one with the They Are Coming example. From the 9/3/2002 CRD (old, but the explanation remains the same):

You may not use the action on Beneath the Mountains if you don't have a Dwarven weapon in your discard pile. You may not play Morgul Gates if you don't have a Nazgûl in your hand.

Though like Ket mentioned, there is always EMHR.

[Kralik]

Thanks for the find ES! I guess that settles my question on whether to use Beneath the Mountains vs. Ever My Heart Rises. I hope all of the players I beat with this deck will forgive me for the oversight. I got the Beneath the Mountains idea from c10ckw0rk here, and didn't realize it wasn't legal.

[ket_the_jet]

Thanks for the find ES!

I think DeadCeLL deserves some credit for the find. He is the reason I looked up what I did, and ES responded to that.

For what it is worth, I'm pretty sure you don't have to forfeit any of those wins. Unless you genuinely believe that at any point, made the difference!
-wtk

[MuadDib85]

You cant discard your deck with BtM unless you a dwarf weapon in your discard pile to play.  There has to be a valid target when the cost of the action is payed.

You are wrong.

I stand corrected.

[Kralik]

I think DeadCeLL deserves some credit for the find. He is the reason I looked up what I did, and ES responded to that.

True, he does. at least.
I have seen many people use Beneath the Mountains in FotR block to cycle and get dwarf weapons... even without weapons yet in discard. I think the clarification on this card needs to be spread.

As for Ever My Heart Rises... it has a lot of potential for helping my Freeps, actually. Without Beneath the Mountains, I don't think I'll "waste" a card slot with a axe at all.

Clarification Edit: Kudos to DeadCeLL for raising the issue, but also to ES for finding an older CRD I didn't have yet.

[Cw0rk]

I got the Beneath the Mountains idea from c10ckw0rk here, and didn't realize it wasn't legal.

I'm such a cheater.

Seriously, I had no idea this was illegal haha.

[Kralik]

I'm such a cheater.

Seriously, I had no idea this was illegal haha.

Me neither... as I said, I had seen it used many times in Fellowship block decks. They Are Coming + Beneath the Mountains + massive deck.

[ket_the_jet]

So, have you tried it yet with Ever My Heart Rises?

And what Shadow card would you intend to take out (if you did indeed remove Dwarven Axe)?
-wtk