Durin's Secret Society of Dear Friends

[bibfortuna25]

How does this fare against Dunland, specifically decks that use Constantly Threatening? By doubling and tripling, you'll be adding a lot of twilight, and that spare twilight can be used to fuel Hides to keep those smelly men alive.

Thoughts?

[sgtdraino]

I think Deep In Thought is probably his answer to both of those. If they come out, he just pulls Deep In Thought his next turn, and gets rid of all that.

ETA: Here's some more food for thought:

After you've discarded everything, 4x The Shire Countryside + These Are My People + 4x Brace of Coneys + Frodo's Cloak + any other Dwarf and Hobbit gear you want = fully kitted-out Gimli, Sam, and Frodo, the ability to heal 16 wounds in Fellowship at a time of your choosing, and the ability to heal 4 wounds during Skirmish at a time of your choosing.

[Kralik]

civ4master, I never see Verily I Come in play, but if it was, Son of Hamfast should be able to take care of it.

bibfortuna, likely it would be a tough match, a taste of my own medicine so to speak. Directed archery only goes so far with an abundance of twilight. Hopefully I would be able to take some Hides out early before a double/triple move.

sgtdraino, you have a lot of ideas but I'm not hearing any good suggestions on what cards to remove to make your ideas fit. I'm not inclined to use Dear Friends to stack Brace of Coneys when there are many better options and I have very limited turns.

[sgtdraino]

sgtdraino, you have a lot of ideas but I'm not hearing any good suggestions on what cards to remove to make your ideas fit.

Heh heh. Well, those who know me, know that I am very fond of large decks. My favorite deck (which is Expanded) has 108 cards. I just did up a variant of your deck that had 164 cards! I won, but there were clearly problems with it. Next version has merely 148 cards

I'm guessing your desire to keep the size down is simply so you have a better chance at getting a good starting hand? Because obviously once you deck yourself out, the size of the deck is no longer relevant.

I'm not inclined to use Dear Friends to stack Brace of Coneys when there are many better options and I have very limited turns.

No no, you don't use Dear Friends to stack Brace of Coneys, you use These Are My People to play umpteen thousand possessions on all your Aragorn signet guys. And since you're playing them from your discard pile, rule of four doesn't apply. I even switched to an Aragorn signet Aragorn, so I could use that event to go ahead and get his bow on him right away. Among those umpteen thousand possessions are 4x Brace of Coneys and 1 Frodo's Cloak, which gets you a total of 5 burdens off and (with 4x The Shire Countryside) 20 heals, as well as turning Gimli, Aragorn, Frodo and Sam into beasts. That also gets you 4x Athelas, for an additional 4 heals as well as some condition removal. All for one card!

[Kralik]

Ah, I see that I am using a few Aragorn signet companions, though not Aragorn himself. Regarding the deck size, I wish I could pare the deck down to 30/30, but I can't think of what I could remove without damaging the deck's success. Huge decks leave me extremely unlikely to get Birthday Present or Constantly Threatening early and would ruin the current deck strategy of tripling from 3-6 and 6-9. Considering I have normal games with a 35/35 deck where I don't draw a card I need until site 6-7, with 4x in the deck, it's not a chance I wish to take.

If I had to reduce the deck size, I'd probably remove 1x Slaked Thirsts, Roll of Thunder, Deep in Thought, Not the First Halfling and Gandalf's Staff. That leaves 30/30 but makes me quite a bit more vulnerable and unable to choose the tools I need to face particular Shadows. Maybe I should consider 32/32... might be worth it.

[sgtdraino]

Here's the variant I've come up with so far, if anyone wants to try it:

Ring-bearer: Frodo, Master of the Precious
Ring: The One Ring, Answer To All Riddles

Starting Fellowship:
1x Gimli, Feared Axeman
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
1x Smeagol, Poor Creature

Adventure deck:
Dunharrow Plateau
King's Tent
Beacon of Minas Tirith
Osgiliath Fallen
City Gates
Minas Tirith First Circle
Osgiliath Crossing
Northern Ithilien
Dagorlad

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Durin III, Dwarven Lord
1x Legolas, Greenleaf
1x Gandalf, Greyhame
1x Aragorn, King in Exile
1x Boromir, Lord of Gondor
1x Elrond, Keeper of Vilya
4x Bilbo, Retired Adventurer
1x Master Proudfoot, Distant Relative of Bilbo
1x Axe of Erebor
1x Dwarven Armor
2x Dwarven Bracers
1x Gimli's Battle Axe, Trusted Weapon
1x Gimli's Helm
2x Hand Axe
1x Aragorn's Bow
1x Armor
4x Athelas
1x Blade of Gondor
4x Brace of Coneys
1x Frodo's Cloak
1x Hobbit Sword
1x Sting, Baggins Heirloom
1x Ring of Accretion
1x Ring of Guile
1x Aiglos
1x Vilya
4x Defending the Keep
1x Rest by Blind Night
4x Slaked Thirsts
1x Secret Sentinels
1x Stand Against Darkness
1x Durin's Secret
1x Well Met Indeed
1x These Are My People
3x Dear Friends
1x No Help For It
1x Ever My Heart Rises
1x Greatest Kingdom of My People
2x Preparations
1x A Light in His Mind
4x Birthday Present
1x Shadowplay
4x The Shire Countryside

Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Gollum, Plotting Deceiver
3x Dunlending Brigand
4x Dunlending Elder
1x Dunlending Headman
1x Dunlending Looter
2x Dunlending Madman
1x Dunlending Pillager
4x Dunlending Rampager
2x Dunlending Ransacker
4x Dunlending Ravager
4x Dunlending Renegade
1x Dunlending Warrior
1x Freca, Hungry Savage
1x Hillman Rabble
1x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Men of the Hills
1x Wulf, Dunlending Chieftain
2x Isengard Tinker
1x Cave Troll of Moria, Scourge of the Black Pit
4x Goblin Runner
1x Host of Moria, Legion of the Underdeeps
4x Desert Sneak
1x Sauron, The Lord of the Rings
1x Úlairë Enquëa, Lieutenant of Morgul
4x Hides
4x Captured by the Ring
4x Evil-smelling Fens
2x Let Her Deal With Them
4x Constantly Threatening
1x Goblin Swarms

Yes, it's pretty huge!

The main thing you want, is to get at least one Bilbo, Birthday Present, or Dear Friends in your starting hand. If you don't, then mulligan. Bid high, go first, pull Ever My Heart Rises, you know the drill. Assuming all this gets you at least one Bilbo, Birthday Present, or Dear Friends, go ahead and discard down to 8-12 cards. Start your setup the usual way, pull Gandalf early, but also get Aragorn and These Are My People asap.

[Grond]

If you have enough time, I'm recommending you to do the maths and see that you got like twice better chance of decent hand if you tune your deck down to 62-64 cards...

[Not a Zombie]

sgtdraino: I'd love to see some replays

[Kralik]

sgtdraino: How many cards is each side total? I'd like to calculate your odds at getting 1 of your 12 desired starting cards when the starting hand + mulligan + EMHR is taken into consideration.

Also, even though Boromir is Aragorn signet, I think in general Eowyn LoI would be a much better bet... much more bang for the buck and the ability to take out minions like Shelob, Sauron, Castamir, Broad-Bladed Sword Uruks etc. with ease.

[sgtdraino]

sgtdraino: I'd love to see some replays

This is the only decent one I have so far:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$k3bbqovl3cs2x94a

I still made some mistakes in the operation, and that latest game link uses Restless Axe, which I have since swapped out for Kralik's suggestion, Rest By Blind Night. I liked the idea of using Restless Axe to exert minions, but ultimately decided I needed to save my Dwarf exertions to put cards on Preparations. There's so much to remember, I keep forgetting things... like how much Fellowship healing capability I have. In the above link, I think one time I moved without healing everyone, because I forgot that I could heal everyone!

Also, even though I like big decks, I am quite sure there are things I can take out of this one to make it better, yet keep the These Are My People possession theme.

In addition to the stuff Kralik does with his version, the idea with this version is to get out Preparations pretty quickly (with Defending The Keep), pile important Shadow cards up on them with your Dwarfs, then put that stuff back in your draw deck with Rest By Blind Night. With the enormous amount of Fellowship healing power, you can generally feel free to exhaust both Dwarfs after you've moved all you can, and heal them in Fellowship. These Are My People gets you 4x Brace of Coneys, 4x Athelas, Frodo's Cloak (which helps during your triples), and of course all your weapons. Elrond helps get your Elf stuff out a bit faster, with you being able to play it the same turn you retrieve it. With Vilya he's also a good defense against stuff like Greed. I replaced Eowyn with Boromir, since I can beef him out with These Are My People to the point where he's pretty much impossible to kill. I also went with an Aragorn signet Aragorn so I can get his bow on him quickly. Bilbo is a countermeasure if your conditions get discarded, and Master Proudfoot works with him to help get your stuff back out as quickly as possible. Finally, Well Met Indeed enables you to sacrifice Gandalf over and over, and just play him out again.

sgtdraino: How many cards is each side total? I'd like to calculate your odds at getting 1 of your 12 desired starting cards when the starting hand + mulligan + EMHR is taken into consideration.

Currently 72 and 72. I *do* want to get it smaller than that, though. Interested to hear the odds!

Also, even though Boromir is Aragorn signet, I think in general Eowyn LoI would be a much better bet... much more bang for the buck and the ability to take out minions like Shelob, Sauron, Castamir, Broad-Bladed Sword Uruks etc. with ease.

With Boromir kitted out, he can generally just fight any of those guys you mentioned, and be just fine. Then you can just heal him in Skirmish, Regroup, or the next Fellowship. OR you can murder those guys with all the crap you have stuck on your Preparations. OR you can Slaked Thirst and fire arrows. I had fun using Stand Against The Darkness to kill Sauron in one game. It's mainly in there to get Grond, didn't even consider the Sauron angle when I put it in.

[Kralik]

With Boromir kitted out, he can generally just fight any of those guys you mentioned, and be just fine. Then you can just heal him in Skirmish, Regroup, or the next Fellowship. OR you can murder those guys with all the crap you have stuck on your Preparations. OR you can Slaked Thirst and fire arrows. I had fun using Stand Against The Darkness to kill Sauron in one game. It's mainly in there to get Grond, didn't even consider the Sauron angle when I put it in.

He can fight but will he win? I'm referring specifically to Eowyn LoI's ability to take out problematic minions, such as Enduring Shelob (without wasting too many Slaked Thirsts) or no archery minions such as str 20 dmg+2 fierce Uruk-Hai.

But anyway I think it's an interesting take on the deck.

[sgtdraino]

I must confess, I have a personal dislike of Eowyn LoI. Probably from all the times I've encountered an opponent using her. She strikes me as truly overpowered, too easy, and frankly too popular. I don't want to use her, because so many other people *do* use her. I might eventually end up going this route, but I'm going to avoid her if I can. Kind of like Orc Culture, I just don't like her.

This variant isn't really intended to be a *better* version of your deck, it's intended to be a *different* version of your deck. Perhaps maybe one that's a little fairer to the opponent?

Plus Boromir is just cool.

[Kralik]

I must confess, I have a personal dislike of Eowyn LoI. Probably from all the times I've encountered an opponent using her. She strikes me as truly overpowered, too easy, and frankly too popular. I don't want to use her, because so many other people *do* use her. I might eventually end up going this route, but I'm going to avoid her if I can. Kind of like Orc Culture, I just don't like her.

I completely understand this sentiment. I feel the same way about certain cards and combinations. For example, I do not have, and I will never play, the typical Movie Lady Redeemed/Cirdan/Elvent deck lineup. I also like tend to shy away from typical shadows in Movie like Ninja Gollum, Corsairs and Besiegers.

However, for this particular deck, I had as my starting challenge to make the most absurd and powerful Free Peoples I could, and I feel like I succeeded. After I built this deck and played it a dozen times or so, I took over a year break from playing LotR as a whole.

[sgtdraino]

Okay, I changed it up some, and it seems to work pretty well! Check it out:

These Are My Dear Friends' Birthday Presents

Starting Fellowship:
Ring-bearer: Frodo, Reluctant Adventurer
Ring: The One Ring, Answer To All Riddles
1x Gimli, Feared Axeman
1x Sam, Son of Hamfast
1x Smeagol, Slinker

Adventure deck:
Dunharrow Plateau
King's Tent
Beacon of Minas Tirith
Osgiliath Fallen
City Gates
Minas Tirith First Circle
Osgiliath Crossing
Northern Ithilien
Dagorlad

Free Peoples Draw Deck:
1x Durin III, Dwarven Lord
1x Arwen, Daughter of Elrond
1x Legolas, Greenleaf
1x Radagast, The Brown
1x Aragorn, King in Exile
1x Elrond, Keeper of Vilya
4x Bilbo, Retired Adventurer
1x Master Proudfoot, Distant Relative of Bilbo
1x Dwarven Armor
1x Dwarven Bracers
1x Gimli's Battle Axe
1x Gimli's Helm
1x Hand Axe
1x Asfaloth, Elven Steed
1x Elven Bow
1x Elven Rope
1x Gwemegil
1x Knife of the Galadhrim
4x Lembas
1x Phial of Galadriel
1x Aragorn's Bow
1x Armor
4x Athelas
1x Ranger's Sword, Blade of Aragorn
4x Brace of Coneys
1x Frodo's Cloak
1x Hobbit Sword
1x Sting, Baggins Heirloom
1x Ring of Guile
1x Aiglos
1x Vilya
1x Quick As May Be
1x Rest by Blind Night
4x Slaked Thirsts
1x Secret Sentinels
1x Stand Against Darkness
4x Not Listening
4x Might of Numenor
1x These Are My People
4x Dear Friends
1x Ever My Heart Rises
2x Preparations
1x Shoulder to Shoulder
1x A Light in His Mind
4x Birthday Present
4x The Shire Countryside

Shadow Draw Deck:
3x Gollum, Old Villain
1x Gollum, Plotting Deceiver
3x Dunlending Brigand
4x Dunlending Elder
1x Dunlending Headman
1x Dunlending Looter
2x Dunlending Madman
1x Dunlending Pillager
4x Dunlending Rampager
2x Dunlending Ransacker
4x Dunlending Ravager
4x Dunlending Renegade
1x Dunlending Warrior
1x Freca, Hungry Savage
1x Hillman Rabble
1x Hillman Tribe
4x Wild Men of the Hills
1x Wulf, Dunlending Chieftain
4x Isengard Tinker
1x Cave Troll of Moria, Scourge of the Black Pit
4x Goblin Runner
4x Host of Moria, Legion of the Underdeeps
4x Desert Sneak
1x Sauron, The Lord of the Rings
1x Úlairë Enquëa, Lieutenant of Morgul
4x Hides
4x Captured by the Ring
4x Evil-smelling Fens
2x Let Her Deal With Them
4x Constantly Threatening
4x Goblin Swarms

A close look will tell you that there are actually quite a few differences between this and Kralik's version now. No Gandalf, different Frodo, Different Smeagol, etc. Here's the procedure:

Turn 1: You need Bilbo, Birthday Present, or Dear Friends. Mulligan if you have to, use Ever My Heart Rises, and hope for the best. Assuming you get at least one of the above, discard down to about 6 cards (discard down low enough so you'll be sure to draw whatever it is you are retrieving this turn). Use whatever you got to retrieve Birthday Present and Light In His Mind. Play what you got. Get Preparations asap. Move to Site 2 and stop.

Turn 2: Play Light In His Mind and Birthday Present. Use BP to Pull 4x Dear Friends. Use DF to retrieve eight cards:

The Shire Countryside x2
Aragorn
These Are My People
Elrond
Radagast
Preparations
Shoulder to Shoulder

Move to Site 3, and stop. This should generate very little twilight.

Turn 3: Pull 2 Dear Friends. Play the 8 cards you drew. Use DF to retrieve Legolas, Arwen, and 2x Not Listening. Use Elrond to play Legolas and Arwen. Use TAMP to play ALL your possessions. Play as many on Frodo as you can. Heal everyone with the various means you have available. Triple to Site 6, using Lembas to get your 2x Not Listening into hand. Use the 2x NL and Frodo's Cloak to heal 10 wounds as you go. Move wounds around with Shoulder To Shoulder as needed. Stack Preparations in Regroup as much as possible.

Turn 4: Pull 4x Dear Friends. Use DF to get 4x Not Listening and 4x Might Of Numenor, OR possibly 4x NL, 2x Might Of Numenor, Rest By Blind Night, and a countermeasure of your choice. Triple to Site 9, using Lembas to take the cards into hand during your first Regroup phase. Stack Slaked Thirsts on Preparations as you go, healing as needed.

Here's a game link, in which everything rolled just about perfect:

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/game.html?replayId=sgtdraino$blmczn76hj8wm28b

Thoughts?

[Kralik]

Just a quick comment: My reasoning behind not using Radagast is Durin's Secret usually leaves an easy triple. Radagast lets your opponent cycle quite a bit.

Watching your playthrough...

* Why that Frodo? It seems like there are better options. Anti-Discard, Anti-Threat, Emergency wounding, etc. The turn you played possessions on him you had 37 twilight before moving... it's not like he's that useful.
* Lucky starting hand.
* Wow, watching your huge deck discard takes forever.
* Lucky minion lineup at sites 2-3. Hardly anything.
* Enquea on sites 2-3 against Sam/Gollum would WRECK you! I think you need a better burden strategy for the early game.
* Why not throw in Durin for extra Preparations exerts AND a transfer of possessions from Gimli? Slaked Thirsts is necessary to avoid Shotgun Enquea, Wormtongue and Chief Counselor. I noticed you didn't use it until later in the game and even then you couldn't load very many.
* IMO Pathfinder is indispensable so you don't get permastopped at site 7
* Str 23 Smeagol was cool
* I'd like to see how this works vs. different Shadows. How would you fight against, say, Easterlings?