V1: Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor

[Kralik]

That would be very powerful indeed, enough that DoE would probably be the favored dwarf for FotR block. Dwarves have NO condition discard abilities other than Make Light of Burdens, which is rare and awful. Are we sure they need this much of a culture change?

[Thranduil]

That would be very powerful indeed, enough that DoE would probably be the favored dwarf for FotR block. Dwarves have NO condition discard abilities other than Make Light of Burdens, which is rare and awful. Are we sure they need this much of a culture change?

Yes I wouldn't suggest something so out of character for the culture either.

If I might summarise the concepts we're working on (and they're in two subsets, one mechanical and one cultural):

i) Turning non-tales into tales
ii) Counting tales in play
iii) Discarding tales for effect
iv) Protecting tale strategies


I) centric tales
II) A range of specific culture tales (, , , )
III) Dealing generically with any culture tales


Let's think in terms of these avenues (and any others we come up with).


While thinking about your card, I would suggest you think in this direction for mechanics:

What do tale strategies need? What problems do they have?

In what way does your proposal meet this need or solve that problem?


Try and make your proposals, as part of the goal of adding deckbuilding possibilities in FotR/Movie, answer those questions.

Thran

[Hobbiton Lad]

A thought:

There are a total of nine tales in Movie Block, with four of those tales being unique.  Specifically, Ever My Heart Rises and Here is Good Rock both involve stacking, which means they will also be tied to other cards in a given deck. Subsequently, it follows that any centric ability that involves discarding tales should have a strong gameplay effect, given the the fact that tales are (1) few and far between and (2) discarding them also means discarding the cards stacked on them.

[Gerontius]

Here's what I thought of- it's a bit of a throwback to Tbiesty's original.
-Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion-Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Sig: Aragorn
Damage +1
Skirmish: Discard a tale from hand or from play to make Gimli strength +3 and lose all damage bonuses (limit once per skirmish).

I also think that Thran was on to something with the burrito cards, although they were a bit unbalanced and burrito cards didn't really exist in Fellowship block. Which reminds me- should we be considering the comparison with Gimli, Son of Gloin?

[Tbiesty]

A couple thoughts:

Several versions of Gimli are already like "do something to make Gimli strength +X", and Gimli, Feared Axeman is already a condition protector.

I think doing something with tales is awesome, but let's have Gimli that does something slightly different then other versions of him.

Something like preventing a wound by discarding a tale, or fetching a tale from your draw deck when a or character is played are a couple ideas that are different but still "fit" for dwarves.

[Hobbiton Lad]

Effects that already exist for tales and don't need duplication:

- Mines of Khazad-dum heals Dwarf companions.

- Gloin, Friend to Thorin gets a strength bonus from tales.

[FM]

Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.

[hrcho]

Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.

I have no problem with that, so long as it affects only conditions, although I don't see a particular use for that.
If it affected other cultures, it would be too powerful (I already mentioned an example regarding Pippin, FtF and TSC).

I also don't see the flavor of turning conditions into tales. There is not much of a tale behind From the Armory, My Axe Is Notched or Stout and Strong for example. Tales are stories from past adventures which inspire the fellowship to be better.

How about this:

Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion-Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Sig: Aragorn
Damage +1
Response: If a companion is about to take X wounds, you may exert Gimli and discard X Tales from play to prevent those wounds.

It's like Gimli has shared tales with other companions and the experience those companions got from those tales helped them survive. It's also not OP because you can't choose how many wounds you'd like to prevent, it has to be all or none.

[Thranduil]

Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.

Though we would also have to consider its effect on Standard (and Expanded) with cards like Pippin, Steadfast Friend and A Dragon's Tale.

(NB: This is not something we should particularly be thinking about at this stage of the design process as we are primarily interested in concept, not details, but at some point we would have to deal with this).

[Hobbiton Lad]

What about using tales as a fetching resource?

Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion-Dwarf
Str: 6
Vit: 3
Sig: Aragorn
Damage +1
Regroup: Exert Gimli and discard a tale to take a Free People's card into hand from your discard pile.

[Hobbiton Lad]

I have to agree with the previous thoughts that this Gimli should either be -intensive, or perhaps and .

And your card, as it stands, would be overpowered.
-wtk

Fair enough. Just make him only be able to fetch or cards.

[Hobbiton Lad]

Actually, I think a lot of the power comes with the ability to fetch an extra skirmish pump, like Servant of the Secret Fire, or another completely universal card. Out of the High Airs before a double move?

The fact that it is a regroup action means that it is repeatable and if he has the exertions (Ring of Retribution, Endurance of Dwarves, anyone?), he could completely restock a hand before a key double move.
-wtk

But it's also dependent on having available tales to spend. I haven't seen a FOTR block shadow deck that doesn't pack at least some kind of condition removal, Saruman's Power notwithstanding. To completely restock a hand means you'd have to have several Tales on the table, which means you've devoted turns and resources to playing those tales that could have been spent playing other Free People's cards, not to mention the slots those tales take up in your deck.

Just because a card could be powerful doesn't mean that it's bad. If it needs some balancing, that's fine. But the whole point of this exercise is to design a card that (1) people will want to use and (2) actually makes a new and viable deck strategy.

[Ringbearer]

I have been reading the discussion a bit, and I wonder if people here knew the old tech for condition removal.... my dwarves always played party field and MoM Bilbo. I found the problem more that they lack good companions. They only have Gloin and Gimli as decent fighters.

How about this one:
(2) Gimli, Dwarf of Erebror.
6/3/A
Damage +1
Your non-unique dwarves are strength +1 and damage +1for each tale (limit +2).

I find this a more elegant solution to the problem dwarves have in block. THis makes the dwarf guards much more playable. Tho I am wondering if they become too good for their cost.

Feel free to discuss.

[Tbiesty]

Just throwing a couple more random ideas out there.  Maybe something will stick.

This one is just because Dwarves don't like Orcs.

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
While you can spot 2 tales,
each Orc skirmishing a Dwarf is strength -1.


This next one uses the "digging" idea to fetch a tale.  Hopefully the tale you want isn't the top card of your draw deck.

•Gimli, Dwarf of Erebor (V)
Companion • Dwarf
Strength: 6
Vitality: 3
Signet: Aragorn
Damage +1.
At the start of each Fellowship phase, you may
discard the top card of your draw deck to play
a tale from your draw deck.

[macheteman]

Since there are a total of 9 tales in the whole of movie block, 4 of them are unique and a lot of them are not particularly useful (Till Durin Wakes Again, in Movie Block or TS, comes to mind, although being fine in FotR), I stand by my idea of turning conditions into tales.

lol, i use till durin wakes again in my TS dwarven tales deck.

so, i really really like wtk's idea. fetch any tale at the start of the regroup. that will only happen 7 times max. the only thing i'm not sure about is whether it should pull from draw deck or discard. because discard lets you use bilbo's text without worrying. but from the draw decks helps you set up faster and makes you still have to think twice before discarding a tale for an effect.